The Body Knows What It Wants — Can You Let It?

About Our Guest:

Nicolette Routhier and Kari Kinkead are embodiment facilitators, relationship coaches, and co-creators of Erotic Reclamation, a platform at the intersection of kink, power dynamics, and personal transformation.

Nicolette came to this work through her own journey from religious repression to erotic sovereignty – a path that moved through shame, sexual trauma, self-pleasure, and the liberating discovery that full expression, held safely, is its own form of healing.  Kari brings a background in science and a deeply somatic approach to the work of expanding what the body can feel, name, and claim.

Together they co-facilitate Temple of Yes, an in-person retreat for singles and couples, alongside virtual coaching programs including the Empowered Submissive container and group immersions. Their practice is grounded in nervous system attunement, robust repair frameworks, and the radical belief that desire is not something to manage – it is something to reclaim, moment by moment, across an entire lifetime.

Links:

• Erotic Reclamation
• Temple of Yes: Oct 15-18, Austin, TX

So this morning, I’m very excited to have the dynamic duo behind Erotic Reclamation. Carrie Kincaid and Nico- Nicolette Ruthier are embodiment facilitators, relationship coaches, and co-creators of Erotic Reclamation, which is a platform exploring the intersection of kink, power dynamics, and personal transformation.

Their work centers on helping individuals reconnect to their desires, their authentic desires, expand their capacity for expression, and engage sexuality as a pathway to self-discovery, empowerment, and relational depth. Uh, some of the themes I’m very excited about, um, regarding their kind of core principle orientation, uh, involves erotic expression as liberation and identity, kink as a pathway to power, self-discovery, and aliveness, and desire as something to reclaim and not to [00:01:00] regulate.

They explore somatic experiences regarding power dynamics, erotic archetypes, full body yes consent, and, um, metabolizing shame. Guys, it’s so great to have you on. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you so much for having us. Yes. Yeah. And you know, it– there’s so much to explore here. It’s like, um, I feel like each kind of subtopic deserves like a platform of its own.

But to start off, I would love to ask each of you, um, so our audience can get a sense of, of you guys as well as the work that you, that you hold. You know, as your work centers around erotic reclamation, the experience of desire and sexual expression as pathways to liberation, um, it’s a two-part question to start us off.

One, how do each of you define what it truly means to reclaim one’s erotic self? And maybe within that you can [00:02:00] share, like what was the pivotal experience for each of you in that journey of your own erotic reclamation, you know, that’s informed how you’re holding space for others today? Y- great way to start us off.

Um, so for me, I’ll, I’ll start by talking about my pivotal moment and then I’ll, I’ll, I’ll s- answer the question about what erotic reclamation is. Um, so briefly, I grew up in a religious upbringing, um, very sheltered when it came to sex, but I always had, um, very vivid fantasies from a very young age. It w- they just came from me.

They weren’t from movies. They weren’t from, you know, traumas. It was just… I was just a fantasy-filled child. Mm-hmm. And, um, I [00:03:00] was at an early age taught through my religious upbringing to associate those fantasies with shame. And, uh, so I did have some sexual trauma in my 20s and, uh, and r- it was like perpetuating shame- Hmm

through my, um, sexual experiences. And the reclamation for me happened… It was twofold. One is through self-pleasure and really finding my body and my pleasure for myself. Mm-hmm. And then also, um, I started going to chat rooms and, uh, talking to people and, and I identify as a submissive, so I would talk to doms.

Mm. And I felt empowered because, um, I could, you know, click off at any time. They didn’t- Right … see me. I could- Sure … [00:04:00] just express myself. Mm-hmm. And I really got to let those fantasies fly in a way that, for me, felt safe. Mm-hmm. So I was finding pleasure in my body for myself, and I was also finding my own expression.

Mm-hmm. And to me, that’s the twofold, um, erotic reclamation is being able to find what feels good, what brings you alive, what brings you pleasure in your body, while also, like, unleashing your inner freak and, like, embracing the full expression of your sexual joy and aliveness and- Mm … and, um, decoupling the r- the paradigm of sex and shame.

Yeah. Wow, that’s so fascinating. I mean, a couple of things stand out. One, the, the religious upbringing that really repressed it, and [00:05:00] yet your fantasy world was really alive and vibrant, right? And how kind of maybe, I, I d- w- the, the anonymity of chat rooms really gave you the freedom To really fully express and explore, you know, what, what your inner freak wanted to do.

Yes. Amazing. Amazing. Um, Carrie, how about you? I, I love listening to Nicolette talk. That’s why we’re partners, ’cause I’m like, “Oh yeah, same.” Right. “Same.” Oh, cool. But I’ll, um, share through, uh, my journey, also religious, um, upbringing, and I’d say less, um, overt suppression, just like wasn’t talked about. Hmm. So, um, was given like a book about my period and then sent to the races, and a promise ring.

And so then I feel like my life has been, um, sexual education through trial and [00:06:00] error is like my favorite thing to say. And unfortunately, a lot of my life was error-based- Mm. Mm-hmm … exploration. And, um, so I feel like I continually live reclamation with my sexuality. Like it to me feels, um, like a continual journey of just what is the next step of reclaiming more wholeness, more sovereignty, more desire, less shame, um, more…

It just depends on the moment in my life, more fiery, kinky wildness or more slow, connected, um, deeply met and intimate sexuality. Mm-hmm. Mm. And so the thing I love about our business is, and like the way I relate to erotic reclamation is it’s, it can be a continual path for what does my body need right [00:07:00] now in the realms of intimacy, of sex, of freedom, of autonomy, of shared connection, um, of more expression, of titration of expression, but in a way that doesn’t feel like bypassing.

Mm-hmm. Could laundry list many different moments, but, um, again, was very heady and in the science realm. I work in a field very, um, science-based, and so my biggest wake-up was realizing that I could feel more than hot and cold or pain or no pain in my body. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause people would be like, “What do you feel?”

And I’d be like, “Hot. No pain. A headache.” And so increasing my body’s vocabulary for sensation was probably- Yeah … one of the big starting points, and then kept going from there. Shame, kink- Mm-hmm … energetic sex. [00:08:00] Um, so- Mm-hmm … and all of that kind of, I think, feeds into what erotic reclamation is really. Like, is there something being left out right now of my whole person, of my whole sexuality?

Is there something I’m not, um, wanting to witness, to celebrate, to express, to share with my partner? Is there, um, even just resting back and not work- working on my sexuality? Mm-hmm. Is that the medicine that’s needed right now? So- Mm-hmm … that’s how, um, I, and I think both of us similarly relate, is just what is, for this time in my life, what is the reclamation?

You know, I feel like you’re bringing up really, really important points. One, I really love that you’re underscoring how your erotic reclamation, all of our erotic reclamations are continually evolving. Mm-hmm. Right? Right? [00:09:00] I mean, just this conversation this morning I’m sure will inspire and, you know, like expand my erotic reclamation, right?

So it’s continually evolving, but also, like moment by moment, whatever that authentic desire is can shift from, you know, like from, as you shared, like soft and intimate to wild and, and, you know, kinky. I mean, it’s really, it’s, it’s really honoring kind of all aspects of our, our sexual identities, right? So I wanted to ask you guys, um, like…

And, and, and maybe you can… W- well, the question that I wanted to ask is, what, what do you guys see within your clients accessing through these spaces, right? Like Nicolette, you shared that in the chat rooms, you know, you could really let your inner freak go wild. You know, what do you guys see in the spaces that you hold space for that weren’t really accessible to your clients in like the [00:10:00] conventional relational or sexual frameworks that exist in our society?

You want me to go? Nicolette and I do a fun thing where it’s like who’s, who’s got it? Right. Of course. Who’s got the thread? Um, one thing I see in our space is, uh, slowing way down, which I know is kind of like in vogue. Slow down. But we actually like almost painstakingly, um, slow down a dynamic, slow down desire, um, because a lot of times there is an impulse, an urge, and then an immediate action or- Right

an immediate thought and then suppression. Mm. Um, and so where we really shine is, like, making people stay with [00:11:00] different pieces of desire. Like, just feel it. Mm. And like, okay, holding them there. Okay, now get really clear, really crystal clear. And now work on the claim part of it, where there may be some shame.

But none of this… So this is three separate steps, and none of it has even gotten to the person they may be having the desire with. And then it continues from there, but that’s where I think we really dilate- Mm … desire and find the nuance in it. Mm. Wow. That sounds really, really juicy and important, and you know, I, I also feel like slowing things down deconstructs what we think we want, you know, and allows us to really feel into, “Well, do I want that?

Or is it something I saw in porn or something I [00:12:00] think my partner wants from me?” You know, there’s all this, like, layers on top of, like, what we really desire. But that really slowing it down, identifying, really feeling it, that, that, that in and of itself is so… can be so transformational. And, and w- and with, uh, uh, reclaiming.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and all the things that come up with that. Like, all of a sudden you claim it, and then there’s fear that comes in or, or this ecstatic pleasure that you didn’t even know you had access to. So yeah. So we also give space for all of that, um, kind of moment-to-moment aliveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s a couple of other pieces that I, I tease in here.

One is that we create a space with full permission to bump up against each other. Mm-hmm. And we have very, um, robust repair [00:13:00] processes. Mm. So it’s not like sex has to happen perfectly, and we get along, and everything’s right, but actually It’s okay and, and it’s actually very normal to bump up against each other.

Mm-hmm. And so is repair. And to get- Mm … into that pattern where that’s more normalized, um, then makes… You know, then there’s more courage to try things and experiment and, y- you know- Mm-hmm … try cooking a meal a couple times. It’s gonna… You’re gonna over-salt it or under, you know- Yes … over-pepper it. So you, you just p- play with the spices.

Like, we want a space where that can happen, and it’s not the end of the world. Yes. You gotta play with the spices for it to get spicy. Yes. Right? Exactly. Yeah. The right flavor- Yes, yes … of spicy. Yes. But you know, I think, I feel like, Nicolette, this is such an important point. It’s really critical, especially in the, uh, [00:14:00] containers of, of kink and power play to, to define or have an aftercare repair process.

You know, it, it, it, it just allows you to surrender more deeply into the container, right? And I’m curious, what does that look like when you create a container for your clients, whether it’s in a workshop or with couples or with individuals? The, the repair process. I mean, you know, I, I imagine it’s, you know, specific to, to what their intentions are.

But if you can just kind of provide the audience with a sense of, oh, okay, there is a defined repair process, so we can, you know, really go for it because we know there’s gonna be aftercare. What does, what does that look like, um, in, in Erotic Reclamation? So I’ll speak to a couple of other pieces that feed into that.

Mm. The first is something that we call the weather report, and the weather report is, it’s like the very first thing that we teach. Mm. And it’s your [00:15:00] moment to moment identifying what’s hap- what’s the weather. Like- Mm-hmm … what is. Naming- Mm … what is. So we, we, uh, start our clients in even just being able to identify what’s happening in their physical sensations, emotional sensations, um, thoughts- Mm-hmm

um, energy, and then be able to communicate that and, and feel comfortable communicating it, going from identifying it to communicating it. Um, and our clients that work with us over time get more, uh, like, like, uh, you know, the vocabulary builds. They get more versed. They get more skilled at it, more skilled at doing it, actually doing it moment to moment, ’cause sometimes initially- Mm-hmm

it won’t come till later. Like, they’re, they’re… And this is where nervous system comes in. You know, especially if the nervous system is in freeze, for example, can be difficult to identify [00:16:00] sensations. And so being able to even identify what freeze feels like. Mm-hmm. And put words to it. Mm-hmm. And start to, um, be in a relational space with what’s happening in the body, that, that starts the process.

Then we have something we call the North Star, which is, um, for every interaction, um, intimate interaction, the– whoever is, is in it comes to a meaning, something that this, um, is in service of Mm-hmm. And whether that’s connection or play or experimentation or discovery or your pleasure or my pleasure or, you know, so some North Star.

Mm-hmm. And, um, having those two, the weather report and the North [00:17:00] Star as the anchor points, you can then bring this into if there’s a bump up, coming to the weather report, this is how I’m feeling, thinking- Mm … and so forth, and w- where are we off from our, our North Star? Mm-hmm. And then, um, we follow a repair process that, that is, uh, created by Dr.

Hazel Grace Yates. Yeah. Hazel Grace. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And we love this repair process, but at, at its baseline, I’m not gonna go into it because, you know, Hazel Grace has the whole structure around it. A whole course around it, yeah. It’s incredible. Um- Mm. But, but it starts with being resourced, and so not even stepping into repair until you are internally resourced, and there are many ways to get resourced.

Having access to empathy and then being [00:18:00] able to, uh, communicate and hear somebody’s impacts for, you know, however that’s expressed. So again, the weather report brings you to being able to share impacts. Mm-hmm. Um, knowing that it’s all in service of the North Star. So at the end, coming to some kind of, whether it’s, uh, a redo or next time we’ll do this or, um, a- an apology- Mm-hmm

amends. So there is some completion that both can come around to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, so yeah, that’s the– those are the baseline aspects of it. That’s great. That’s really, really great. So y- you know, my, my sense in just you sharing that about the container, um, it sounds like there’s a debrief at the end, w- you know, kind of a check-in k- like [00:19:00] I mean, there’s two things that stand out for me.

One, the weather report i- is actually teaching people how to somatically attune to themselves. Mm-hmm. Right? It’s a somatic attunement exercise, but that’s like a, a, like a, like a constant throughout. You’re training people how to attune somatically to what they’re feeling, what they’re sensing in their bodies.

Um, and I love the North Star. Um, w- you know, I, I would love for you to kind of, uh, share with our audiences the other aspects of the container, ’cause it sounds like it’s, it’s, like, what are… Like, it sounds like you’ve really thought through what’s safe, you know, um, how to repair. Um, w- so is there, like, a debrief process?

Do c- p- people come to you with an intention and then you create a container and there’s… Like, help us understand, like, what happens with you and your clients? Yeah. This has been a really [00:20:00] cool thing that we’ve actually gotten so clear that it’s like, “Oh, these are the steps we walk people through for an intimate moment.”

And, um, Nicolette named the weather report starting the north star, what is this in service of? And then from there, you move into desires. Mm. And then we have a whole framework around desires if that’s where people want help. If they’re like, “I don’t know what I want. I need to see a menu,” or- Mm-hmm … they’re like, “I can’t identify in my body what I want,” or they, again, this is kind of the articulating.

They can’t say it clearly, or maybe they’re, like, a little nervous to share. Um, one of our favorite things to help couples with is seemingly conflicting desires. Mm. This is like, ugh, geek out on it. Where if one person has, like, um, “This is something I want from my partner,” say, we’re gonna say, like, spanking, ’cause sometimes- Mm-hmm

it’s [00:21:00] helpful to give a tangible example. And then another partner’s like, “I’m a no to spanking.” A lot of times, that’s where the conversation can end. Mm-hmm. And then someone feels rejection, and then someone feels like they gotta turn off desire. Some- then there could be caretaking or overextending, like, “Well, maybe I could do spanking,” but it doesn’t…

That’s where the wheels start to get a little wobbly sometimes. Mm-hmm. And with the north star established or just, like, the why are we doing this? Mm. That can open up a conversation where a no can be discussed because it’s not a no to connecting. Like, I’m a yes. Right. Our, our north star is to, to leave feeling connected and close.

Mm-hmm. Great. That can look like a million things. So then it can be like, are, are you open to discussing your yes under spanking, and are you open to discuss- discussing your [00:22:00] no? And we always like to say, no is a whole sentence, right? Mm-hmm. There’s a lot around that. We hold that really, really strongly. And- Mm-hmm

with curiosity around yeses and nos, you can find shared yeses again. Mm. So this could look like, okay, the person with the yes could explain like, “Oh, what spanking does for me is it lights me up. It makes me feel powerful. I feel like my spine lengthens, and something in my chest broadens, and my hands warm up.”

And so that could be what they describe as why they might be really excited about spanking. It kinda goes a layer deeper. Mm. And then if it’s curiosity, they can explore the no. Like, “Oh, my, um, I had a bad experience with this at one point, and I’m a little scared about it,” [00:23:00] or, “I’m a– I don’t really like pain- Mm-hmm

and I’m a little nervous about being able to take sensation.” Mm-hmm. Um, so now it’s like, okay, the first partner really likes feeling tall, broad, powerful, and the second partner is a little nervous about pain level. Mm. Now what do we do with that information rather than- Mm-hmm … just spanking, yes or no?

Mm-hmm. And then we can move into can we give an energetic spank? Mm. Can we give a spank that stops like an inch- Mm-hmm … from the skin? Mm-hmm. And like- Mm-hmm … “Oh, what is, what is there?” And then they can continue to have conversation. And so this is where we get really excited, is helping people who seem to be stuck- Yeah

with conflicting desire. ‘Cause it’s like- Yeah … you can continue to [00:24:00] get down to the root of, “Okay, okay, what does feeling powerful do for you? Okay, what does- Mm … like, just what does that do for you?” And at some point, you will be able to find a common ground. It will likely look different than- Mm-hmm … both people imagine.

Right. But thank goodness, that some of the best sex is the kind that we didn’t even think of on our own. But then now both partners are bought in, and it’s not a compromise, it’s not a suppression of, or like, “I can’t have this, I can’t have that.” Right. Mm-hmm. It’s co-created. Yeah. And then you already hit your North Star- Mm

of connection and closeness just in the conversation. Mm-hmm. I can understand why you geek out on this. You know, I mean, I, you know, as you’re describing that… ‘Cause the, the first scenario where, you know, someone wants spanking, the other one is a no, I feel like that scenario is what mostly happens in [00:25:00] couples.

You know? And then there’s this ping pong of, my trigger triggers you, your trigger triggers me, I’m not good enough, I’d never get what I want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what you’re, you’re actually inviting everything, you know, in the yes, in the no, and teasing it apart, and getting underneath what, what the desire is, you know?

And this is where I see how valuable the North Star is. It keeps people on track to what’s really important. You know, as you’re describing that, I was like, wow, if you guys, you guys can create a course just on that, you know? On, like, getting underneath the yeses and nos, ’cause that would resolve so many things for lovers and couples.

Yeah. I mean, it’s the basis of our work. Mm-hmm. And then we built out around, around. Mm-hmm. So yeah, love hearing the- Amazing … sound of excitement and the geek-out. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so coming back to the container- Mm-hmm … and what, what your clients expect, [00:26:00] there’s the North Star, there’s the weather report, there’s identifying desires, right?

And the process of really getting to tease out what is, you know, like, where is the common ground? How can you create, um, you know, something new that’s really exciting for both people? And then, um, tell me about, like, the aftercare, you know, after a container like that. That, that, that must, um, also relieve kind of any anxiety of clients knowing that there’s an aftercare process.

Yeah. So aftercare, uh, is something w- we, we introduce, um, but we’re also We see it as something that shows up throughout the entire intimate- Mm … interaction. Mm-hmm. Um, and identifying aftercare before you go into an intimate interaction is important, um, [00:27:00] because you have– you know that you can always come back to that.

It’s like aftercare is the baseline. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we, we offer a- an aftercare menu and, um, we actually did a recent podcast episode about aftercare that used the love languages as the baseline, um, with different categories. Because really that’s what most people’s– the thing that brings them care and brings them nourishment, uh, is often identified with, with their, their- Mm-hmm

love languages. Right. Right. Yeah. And so- Right … so having that to start with, uh, knowing that, um, like if someone really loves physical touch, like- Mm-hmm … snuggling, well, you can start with a snuggle, and then the snuggle can lead into, you know… And you can be snuggling while negotiating a scene. And scenes are, are short [00:28:00] periods of, uh, time and short interactions, or they can be longer interactions.

But it’s a defined, um, container- Mm-hmm … for an intimate interaction. Mm-hmm. Often scenes are associated specifically with kink, though we, we identify all intimate interactions in scenes in our, in our- Right … containers. So you can- Mm … be in the aftercare, you know, but it, it’s like more like pre-care. We’ve really just brought it down to care, be in the care space.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you can be snuggling and negotiating your scene. Um, and for another person who quality time is their, their jam, just being together negotiating a scene could already start to fill their cup. For someone- Right … who needs words of affirmation, you know, hearing the other person’s desire can already start to fill their cup.

Mm. So you’re, you’re getting that going right from the very beginning, and knowing that you can return to it as well. Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. So [00:29:00] this leads me to another question, which is, like, understanding your client’s love language, right? Their desires, their love language, their intentions. What, what is the onboarding process that you guys go through with your clients, whether it’s an individual or a couple?

Yeah. So we have- Um, yeah … an application process, uh, for most of our programs, uh, and retreats, and an interview. And so then th- in the application, it gives people to already start to talk about desire. Yes. And talk about boundaries, and we haven’t brought in boundaries yet, but, um, to already start that conversation around their yeses and their nos.

Mm-hmm And it’s, it’s already moving them in the direction. Like, we’ll ask them what their intentions are, so that gets them in the direction of their North Star, gets them in the direction of the weather report. When we get on a call with them, we’re tapping into the, you know, “How are you [00:30:00] feeling right now?”

We tap them into the language around weather report, into the language around North Star- Mm-hmm … into the language around their yeses and nos. So, so the onboarding process is actually like a, a ninja, like- Yes … bringing them into our container. Yeah. Yeah. And if they’re game for that, like you can really tell, like if, if they’re, they’re jamming on what it is that we’re bringing in, then we know that they’re gonna be a fit.

Um, we create a lot of space for answering their questions, because when you’re addressing sex, a lot comes up, and you can te- uh, you know, like the fears that come up around the container are likely the fears that show up around sex in general. Mm, mm, mm-hmm. So we give a lot of space for that. Mm-hmm. And then we also are getting a lot of information about what’s gonna be in the container- Mm-hmm

um, simply by the questions that they’re [00:31:00] bringing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. Great. So I wanna ask you about the container itself, right? Um, so, you know, w- I’m curious when… Uh, so I can imagine, uh, couples coming and creating a container. You know, for example, if, if, if, if one wanted to experience their, their dominant side, the other wanted to explore their sub- submissive side.

And, uh, between lovers, obviously they have a relationship and they have their own history, and I imagine that within the container, are, are there boundaries that you have as facilitators when you’re, uh, holding a container? So that’s one question. And then if someone is coming individually, do, do you participate with them within a container?

And are there bound… What, what are– What’s the boundary, uh, identifying process in that kind of scenario? This question [00:32:00] Good … love this question. Um, we have a couple different programs. Uh-huh. So, um, our virtual online ones, it’s pretty easy to figure out the boundaries. We aren’t in the same space with people.

So I’m gonna focus mostly on our in-person retreat called Temple of Yes. Temple of Yes. Temple of Yes. And that is an event that singles and couples can both come to. Mm. Mm-hmm. And we, Nicolette and myself, have very clearly and strongly agreed that we do not exchange sexual energy with any of our students.

Mm. So she and I are completely out of the sharing, exchanging of sexual energy. Um, we don’t eye gaze, we don’t exchange, um… Well, not like eye gaze, but we don’t, like, run sexual energy, like eye gaze, breathe, um- Right … we don’t have physical, like sexual physical touch. If we have [00:33:00] friendships with people, we hug.

Mm-hmm. Um, so we have platonic, friendly, but we are really clear that in some of the sexual spaces, there can just be a lot of messiness and unspoken power dynamics. And- Absolutely Our, our heart’s mission is for people to have a space that they can feel more of themselves. Mm-hmm. Not more of Nicolette and I’s ego.

Right. Nicolette and I’s preference. Right. Nicolette and I’s idea of what sex is. Mm-hmm. We want it to be… Like, we’ve done a good job, which this is kind of annoying sometimes, but we’ve done a good job if people almost don’t even realize what we’re doing or that we’re there. Right. Right. I get it. And like- I totally get it

that is the thing that we wanna create. And so, um, that enables me personally to feel really good showing up into these spaces- Yeah … and that we can keep it [00:34:00] very, um, focused on… We, we, our North Star is to be of, like, in service to the room or the people- Mm-hmm … who are there. So- Hmm … um, yeah. I’ll s- Like, that’s speaking to that piece, and then I think you asked a question about couples and singles, but I’ll leave it- Yeah

at that for now. Great. Well, I just wanna reflect, um, you know, I really respect the clean, the cleanness of the container, because you are like the room, right? I mean, to be individ- to be, to feel, to be in- uh, invisible for the client so they can really deepen and take ownership of their own kink or desire or life force without projecting it on or crediting the facilitator, you know, is an art, and I really respect that.

You know, that sounds amazing. And, and it’s f- it’s so much [00:35:00] safer and cleaner for you as the facilitator, but it’s really a gift to your clients. And we still get to be ourselves. Yeah. Like we- Totally … ooze permission. Like we still- Yeah … wear like a little, you know, cute, sexy little thing, or we- Right … talk about our own, um, sex and aliveness, but it’s quite contained, which feels really nice.

Yeah, and we make ourselves accessible. So even though we’re, we’re invisible, we’re, you know, we’re running the playlist or, or holding s- like I’ll– I, I, I curate the playlist during especially what we call our play dojos, where people can, um, practice all the different things that we teach them around setting up a scene and, and- Mm-hmm

pleasure and desire, and setting up their boundaries, and then going to town. Um- Mm-hmm … and they can go as far as they want, you know? It’s like it’s their, it’s their playground. Mm-hmm. We make our– So I’ll have the playlist going, [00:36:00] and if there’s a spanking scene over here and another, you know, play over there, and who knows what’s happening in that room, you know?

So it’s like I- Mm-hmm … I have the playlist running with the energy of what’s happening. So we’re very tuned to the– We’re both very energetically tuned people. Mm. So we’re tuned to the energy of the play. If it needs to get more low-key, we’re kind of, everyone’s sort of moving into aftercare, we’ll, we’ll bring the, the mus- So the music is a big part of it.

And then there’s also, um, having us there so if, uh, some people are negotiating a scene and they come up against a challenge, they can come to us and talk about it. Or if something happens- Mm … mid-scene, they can come to us. So it’s like we’re accessible to support them in working through those, again, we’re having them slow down so we can work through those little nuances right in the moment.

Yeah. [00:37:00] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s really– I mean, that’s such a, um, it’s a tremendous asset to have someone experienced and who is attuning to what’s happening in the container right there, you know, to course-correct or to, you know, support when, when, when they’re, they’re going astray. I mean, I, I’ve, I’ve participated in, in containers, like in a workshop kind of setting, you know, that were 25 minutes long.

So it was long enough to kind of instill a new somatic imprint in the body, whether that’s as a dom or a sub. Um, but- You know, this, the safety of it really allowed us to go wherever the, the energy wanted to go, you know? And I was like just, you know, pulling his heart out of his body and, and like m- you know, con- like devouring his heart, you know?

Like, but, you know, energetic knife and all of that, and it’s so freeing. Mm-hmm. And then that gets instilled in your, in your soma, you know? Like, it’s embodied, [00:38:00] and that never leaves. Uh, that memory’s in your body, and it does change something in your behavior or in your kind of self-permission. It’s almost like your body sheds some layer of conditioning, you know?

Uh, ’cause we’re all conditioned by so many things, and so it’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. Okay, I ha- I’m, I’m curious, like I, I’m guessing that You know, like people find out about you and they’re like, “Oh my God, I didn’t even know this existed. Amazing.” And they list all of their like desires and fantasies and, you know, when they show up, I wonder if sometimes people’s desires are way beyond what their nervous system can handle, you know, or maybe even what their psyche can handle.

You know? Does that show up a lot in containers, and how do you guys navigate when someone’s nervous system, you know, doesn’t have the capacity to meet what they think their desire is? [00:39:00] Yeah. So again, we, we slow it down. Slow it down. Um, and our, our framework for desire, w- like when they show up, just, just even stating their desire might already get the nervous system going.

Mm. So we begin with feeling and sensing desire as it’s just, just desire itself without even articulating the desire. We start there. Then they can start to articulate it, and we have them do it through journaling, so they don’t even have to say it yet. And that can bring regulation. Mm-hmm. We have a process for working with the fears that came up just by writing it down, and then speaking those fears to another person who isn’t the person involved in the desire.

So, so there’s nervous system regulation that’s happening through every step. Yeah. Then claiming the desire, and we, we have a, a [00:40:00] really specific practice for working with claiming desire where they’re met with the full yes of another person who’s… And then there’s another person who is, it’s like a three-person container.

The other person is supporting them with regulating their nervous system and fully claiming it for themselves. So that all happens before they bring that to another person. And because everybody in our container goes through that, they have started to work with how to regulate their own nervous system.

But then also in our negotiation process, we, we work with the attunement to another person’s nervous system, and safety and talking about nervous system is a part of the negot- negotiation Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I’m really impressed.

I mean, like the– ’cause I feel like that is what’s missing in a lot of DS [00:41:00] spaces, you know, is understanding the role the nervous system plays and, you know, what, what is a reenactment of a, of a past traumatic event, you know, because of the charge, you know, because I can only feel when I’m, you know, feeling this, and what is actually, like, creating a, a new pathway, you know, where the person can, uh, be, be, be within their agency and cre- and kind of eroticize that past experience to have their own freedom and choice. Yeah, I mean, it’s wonderful for the, the person who, who’s receiving or working through it, but they’re also kind of sneakily side by side learning what it’s like to be with someone else’s nervous system while it maybe bubbles up and then settles down, right?

So with the claim exercise, getting to witness someone’s [00:42:00] liberation, like initially their fear with saying like, “I want to wear high heels.” Mm-hmm. I throw out random examples. Great. Awesome. Like, “I wanna wear high heels.” Yeah. And maybe that’s really, really, like, nerve-wracking for someone to say. Being the person who’s standing in front of someone being a full-bodied yes, like yes, that imprint on your own nervous system, you are supporting someone else’s expression of desire.

Mm-hmm. I truly believe the imprint of supporting someone’s fullest desire when it’s, again, not your partner, not someone you are currently involved in and making a… There’s all kinds of wounds, baggage, stories. But doing that with someone that you don’t have that baggage with is an imprint, so that when you do get in front of your partner- Hmm

just like you said, there is something installed in your nervous system where you’re like, “Oh, there is deep [00:43:00] liberation available behind someone’s full claim of desire.” Yeah, I was- And like that’s a cool sneaky sideways, like, benefit. They don’t even know they’re, like, getting- Yes … that, and it’s so- Yes

nourishing. Totally. Totally. I can just see it kind of like, you know, like in, in, uh, theater improv, there’s a yes and game where you’re just yes and-ing, and that is happening somatically, just as you pointed out. You know, Carrie, when, when someone is, is, is, is holding, uh, space for that yes for their… When their nervous system is, like, s- giving the permission of yes, then that, that nervous system knows that that’s possible for itself as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That’s really, really exciting and amazing. You know, I’m really curious… Oh, sorry. Were you gonna say something else? Oh, no. Let’s go where you’re curious. We love curiosity. Well, I am, I’m really curious, like, I mean, be- to be able to witness this happening [00:44:00] must be so exciting, right?

For couples, for individuals in group spaces. Um- I’m really curious about each of your kind of, you know, the evolution of your understanding of erotic IQ. Um, like how, how liberating… Like, I mean, I know it’s your jam and that’s why you’re doing this, but in the evolution of erotic reclamation, um, what, what have been some of the kind of awe-inspiring experiences that you’ve had the privilege to witness, whether it was with couples or individuals?

Mm. I’m sure there’s a long list, but I’m wondering- Yeah … if, if certain situations stand out. Yeah. I can… Yeah, it is a long list. It’s like- Mm-hmm … makes my skin, like, tingle and my heart, like, beautifully open. Um- Mm … the… We’ve had… It’s so, it’s, like, so people’s [00:45:00] tenderest, so I’m pausing because when I share about the transformations we’ve experienced, I wanna make sure I’m, like, holding the people who’ve actually gone through it.

Because we’ve had people who have never had sex before. We’ve had people who’ve had, um, been, like, accused of causing harm and gotten a little bit, like, then really clamped down on their sexuality. We’ve had, um, couples who are just so confronted by what they want that they’re just, like, locked up and trembling.

And Who had, you know, lost her husband and, and was reclaiming sexuality for herself. Wow. And on the other side, I mean, just like, “I didn’t even know this was possible. I met new parts of myself.” Mm. “I [00:46:00] feel so inspired to go create, get… Like, I feel alive.” And it’s just the stories are all so beautiful, so individualized, and quite tender.

Like, it’s the tender- Mm-hmm … it’s the tender spots in people. Um- Mm-hmm … I’ve never self-pleasured and then just laid there in relaxation before. Because we, we give one of our, um, in the Temple of Yes, one of the experiences, self-pleasure, and it’s not goal-oriented, and it’s beautiful. And this is not a, um, a space where we focus specifically on, like, shamanic healing, but that experience alone ends up being so transformative.

Mm-hmm. All of people’s patterns around pleasure and if this is okay, and I mean, it’s, it is so beautiful to witness the innocence. Honestly, what we hear the most after our retreat is a [00:47:00] reclamation of, like, the innocence of someone’s erotic or sexual desire. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, I can so imagine that happening, and it, I think it’s because eroticism, uh, you know, like, there are images of fetuses in the womb holding their genitals and self-pleasuring.

I think it is very, it, I think it’s reclaiming our childhood, you know? Because I think so much of our, uh, natural curiosity and love for other, other kids and other beings, you know, that kind of gets re- conditioned out of us as youngsters. And, um, it is a reclamation of innocence. I think that’s so beautifully said.

Mm-hmm. We have, like, a lot of play. Like, it can be playful. I think that’s something that sets us apart, too. Mm-hmm. It can be fun. It kind of is the whole point. Like- Mm-hmm. Right. Right … and that is, like, so easily missed, ’cause some of this [00:48:00] stuff can feel so heavy. Yeah. Like, so heavy. And I, like, I get it, because I’ve worked through a lot of really dark, heavy stuff in my own sex.

Mm-hmm. But we don’t avoid that while holding very strongly that this gets to be enjoyable for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, I really, um, feel like what you guys have co-created, uh, is kind of a sanctuary for DS, BDSM, and kink work. You know, because I’ve never heard it held in ways where you’re teaching people to self-attune, where you’re attuning to people’s nervous systems, where conflict is being teased out to get underneath, you know, to what is really connecting, you know, partnerships, you know.

And you’re really inviting people to reclaim the [00:49:00] innocence, you know, of who they are, you know. And giving the permission. You’re like teaching permission giving and instilling that in people’s somas. This is incredible. This is so beautiful. Um, so I– there’s, there are two questions I have that come up. One is like, I mean, it’s kind of a weird question to ask you guys because you guys do it…

There’s so many things that I’m hearing that are done differently than a lot of other, uh, you know, DS or BDSM spaces. But I wanted to ask each of you, um, what, what do you think is the biggest misconception about DS work or BDSM work or, or the kink space?

I’d say, that it must be intense. Mm. Like, like it’s an expression of intensity- Mm-hmm … or the taboo or the… There’s, like, a making it intense in whatever way. Right. Um, and [00:50:00] what we’re finding is it’s actually more of a spectrum. Like, intensity kinda makes it, like, this or this. Mm-hmm. You’re kinky or you’re vanilla, you know?

Mm-hmm. But you’re actually ex- in a, a spectrum of expression. Mm-hmm. And, um, can be, can live in the full spectrum. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ‘Cause the full spectrum i- is reflective of that whole range, right? ‘Cause we’re all of that. Mm-hmm. Yes. Love that.

It’s like whatever the conception of, your conception of kink is, it’s probably- Mm-hmm … more. Mm-hmm. And I, I kind of hold the controversial belief that everyone is kinky. It’s just- Mm-hmm … what you’re… ‘Cause it’s like what is kink? And that’s a whole conversation that, um- Yeah … I won’t open or go down that pathway.

But the way I personally relate to it is [00:51:00] what is, what is there that I kind of want, I kinda don’t want, I kinda feel a little, like, ooh- Uh-huh … ooh, ooh. ‘Cause that’s- Right … just a, it’s just, um… There’s so much energy there. And I think energy- So much aliveness. Yes. Energy and aliveness are different than intensity.

Mm-hmm. So, like, assless chaps might be involved, but I think for a lot of people, the image of, like, leather gear might keep them from the exploration- Mm-hmm … of, like, I wanna feel fully in my power- Mm-hmm … and I wanna feel their surrender. Mm-hmm. And that’s where I think we’re like, “Okay, you can wear assless chaps while doing that if you want, or you can still wear your Sunday dress.”

And- Mm-hmm … that speaks to what Nicolette’s talking about, is, is, um, a wider way to play with this. Yeah. Yeah. A wider way that, that is so permissive and that invites [00:52:00] that, that, you know, out of the box. Like, I feel like kink for me is just what’s non-normative. And under that definition, we are all kinky, ’cause I think the norm is not,

It’s a conditioning that’s placed upon us, you know? It’s not who we really are. Mm-hmm. So by that definition, we are all kinky, and there’s, you know, there’s wild kinksters in, in, in all of us. Mm-hmm. Um, how can people find you? Mm. So we have an Instagram, Erotic Reclamation. And that is also our website, eroticreclamation.com.

And on there you can reach out to us. We have a Substack. Cool. I don’t exactly know how to direct you to that. I am not the tech girl. Mm-hmm. But it is also Erotic Reclamation. You will find it if we’re talking about kinky subjects. Uh, you will find it- And the podcast … and the podcast on every podcast platform.

So yeah, it’s- Great … if you search [00:53:00] Erotic Reclamation, you’ll, you’ll find us. But eroticreclamation.com, uh, we link to everything. Okay. And then you, it sounds like you work with couples, you work with individuals, and there are group experiences that you also offer. Yeah. Yeah. So we have one-on-one coaching. We have, um, virtual small containers, like if you wanna get like a four-week intro.

We’ve got longer. We just wrapped up a three-month empowered submissive program, which was really cool. And then we’ve got some in-person retreats as well. Ooh, exciting. So many options. So there’s a, there’s a way, there’s an entry point for just about anyone, which is great, which is great. All right. So Erotic Reclamation, uh, webs- URL, Instagram, uh, Substack, and podcast.

Yeah. Easy. Great. Guys, um, Carrie, Nicolette, thank you guys so much for, you know, really, uh, y- you’ve created something really, really special. Yeah. And, um, yeah, and [00:54:00] it’s, I mean, I just, I’m so happy for all the lives and the lovers and the love that’s being transformed, and the pers- permissiveness and for like, you know, all aspects of ourselves to come forward.

It’s really, really terrific. Thanks so much for your time today. Thank you. Thank you. Such an energizing conversation. Yes. Yes.