Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin.

 

Today I have the great pleasure and honor of inviting Pamela Landers to the podcast. Pamela has been something of an angelic guide for me in my journey as a somatic sexuality practitioner. As we first met about 20 years ago at a Tantra residential retreat when we were first introduced to inner pelvic work.

And then 11 years later, our paths crossed again when she became my very first professional client as an intuitive healer, she's able to speak with tremendous insight about her own healing journey as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. After the positive response from last week's episode with Violet Lang, I wanted to move Pamela's episode up the queue to illustrate how different the path can be and how unique the journey of coming home to the body really is for each and everybody in Soul Pamela's insights about her memories returning to her in her forties during breath work, using her singing voice to discharge embodied emotions, as well as the rolls tantra.

Yoni massage and somatic sexuality sessions all served in restoring Her sexual pleasure and embodiment are unique to her magnificent journey. Please note the sensitive subject matter, especially if you've experienced or suspect you've experienced abuse of any kind in your past. Making sure you are feeling supported by your familiar and safe environment, the company of loved ones, and listening while it's feeling grounded and resourced in your body.

Please feel free to pause and return to the episode after any length of time to digest and integrate the material, if that makes sense to you. Essentially, please take good care.

I am really honored and thrilled for our listeners today that our guest today is Pamela Landers. There are many things I can share about Pamela, but I really must say she's one of the most courageous people I know. She is a incredibly gifted, intuitive healer. She is a one of the. Top three expert, master hand analysts in the country having published many books on hand analysis.

But I know her through her incredible journey of reclaiming and restoring and realizing her sexual health and wholeness. Thank you so much for being here, Pamela. I really appreciate it. It's so my pleasure. I'm so excited. Awesome. Awesome. So to give some context as to how you and I have crossed paths and worked together, it goes back to my very first.

So that tantra training at Desert Hot Springs was actually my first introduction to Inner pelvic release. And what that means specifically is holding a sacred space for the integration and release of unintegrated emotions from the tissues and musculature of the genitalia and pelvis.

Fortuitously, Pamela and I were assigned to work with each other, and I was really blown away by what I witnessed as far as the possibilities of releasing ST stored emotions and trauma from the pelvic bowl. And the real courage and intention that I saw in Pamela in the way that she was supporting herself through the experience.

And as well, it was my first time receiving any kind of inner pelvic work, and that was, that really blew me away as well. And then we, our path, fortuitously crossed again 11 years later when I was at a point of considering switching careers and leaning into becoming a somatic sexual wholeness practitioner.

And it was just like divinely orchestrated that there she was again. So Pamela and I met again just at that juncture, which is amazing. And then she became my first client and over a series of sessions once again she came so ready, so prepared. Prepared as far as her inner fortitude and her intentionality and the way that she really supported herself through that process of releasing any remnants of numbness and pain and inviting them to an evolve into a healthy pleasure response was so both inspiring and yeah, it was just so inspiring that it really encouraged me to move into this field.

Pamela, I really need to, I wanna acknowledge it's, it gives me such pleasure to acknowledge you as being that guiding. Angel or that guiding force on both occasions. It's incredible. It is incredible. And that first one, the Tantra retreat in Desert Hot Springs, we totally unbeknownst to each other, right?

It wasn't like we were, had any conversation ahead or anything. So both of us went into this with a lot of trust in ourselves, which is a major part of the journey. The reason that this has worked for us to work together as often as we have is 'cause we each trust ourselves, but to trust the other person, then to have our back and to be there for us.

That was really very important. Very important. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think we both, I think both of us are intuitive people and we felt. The the sense of safety and trust in working with each other. Pamela, for our listeners once again I really wanted this podcast to be practical for listeners because I think sexual abuse and trauma is an unspoken epidemic in our society.

And so I really wanted to Yeah, exactly. I really wanted, I'm rolling my eyes. Yeah. How true that is. Yeah. And I feel like there are such practical tools, experiences, and wisdom, and I wanted to hear from people who actually went through the journey of holding space for their own reclamation, restoration and realization journey back into sexual embodiment.

And for our listeners I think a great place to start may be to create the context of what some of those obstacles were for you in your life that you overcame through the years in your sexual healing journey. I, one of the things that's important, I was 40 before, I had memories of being sexually abused, which I think is a very common thing for people, especially if it happened when they were young and it stopped at an early age that they don't remember.

And that was true for me. I didn't have any memories until it was safe enough to have memories. Because I needed a support system. And that's one of the things that I recognize, that having memories of being sexually abused without a support system bad news Yes. Is very hard. So I had all these little hints of things.

That this might have been true, but until I knew that I was in a safe enough place and had a therapist that I trusted someone with whom I had been through years and years of dream work and spiritual journey that I knew from my church until I had a therapist that I knew I could trust, I couldn't be in the memory.

So that's, to me, was a very practical, retrospectively, I would say. I didn't know that at that time, but I knew my guidance was taking care of me because all these other hints had come before that, but I wasn't ready to remember until I was ready to remember. And you can't force that journey. Yeah, you cannot force it.

I think that's a really important point to underscore that our psyche, our whole, our nervous system needs to feel resourced and safe enough to address those experiences that are often blacked out in our memories because our system knows that it would be too overwhelming to deal with those kinds of memories.

And in some situations, there's a threat. There's the thought that it won't be able to survive if they have those memories while still, for example, living with a perpetrator or or being in danger of a repeated abuse. So it sounds like for you that resourcing and support came in the form of working with a therapist and a kind of a support network when you were 40.

Yes. Yeah. And what was that like for those memories for those realizations to, to come back? The first, the day that I had the memory, I, we, my therapist and I were doing breath work. And so she had been trained enough in it to do it, and she just had me breathing breathing.

And I went to her telling her, I think I've been sexually abused. And so she knew that's what was the potential of what was up. So she obviously also had tools to help be present with that. Earth's mother therapist, very earthy, very caring. Woman that I knew really well, I knew she had my back.

And so she in the breath work, I had a memory. I could feel it in my body. So it felt real to me. I could trust it because I felt it, it wasn't a mental experience that I thought I was making up, which happens a lot. So that I felt it in my body because I was doing breast work. And I trusted it because I already had hints about it.

And then the other thing that was really significant is after we got through that session and she, I was telling her details and things that I could remember and then, which also made it more real for me. And then after that session, I felt this experience of the cells in my body really rearranging themselves.

Literally, I could feel them moving, like the space that I'd been holding the secret, which is what it was, I was holding this secret, was now free. And the cells arranged themselves and it was such a bizarre experience that I remember it 'cause it was so out of the box or something I had experienced up to that point.

I've since had other experiences like that, but that was the first time I had that consciousness. Oh wow. My cells are rearranging themselves because the secret has been told, and I'm safe sharing the secret with this person. Yeah. Yeah. That's really profound and it speaks to. The work that the body is engaged in holding these secrets and keeping these secrets in the body and what can happen when what's in the shadow can be brought out into the light and really received and held a safe space for, in this case, your therapist, who was also, it sounds like a breath practitioner, but bringing those secrets into the light allowed your, this, your cellular structure to let go of whatever tension and effort was going towards keeping them in the dark, right?

Which is what it needs to do, right? Yeah. Yeah, I, Pamela I'm wondering if you can share a little bit once you've, the memory came back to you and you felt it in your body, did some of the earlier experiences, for example, when you were a teen or a young adult around sexuality make sense to you?

Oh my God. It was like this whole floodgate of, oh my God, that makes so much sense. Oh, I get that now. Oh my, oh, yes, tons of that. And of course I did therapy for the next two years with her. 'cause it just, it takes time. This is not a one-time thing. Oh, I have memories now I'm good. No, then I have to deal with all the consciousness changes that have to happen and all of, there's just so much that happens as a result for me.

There were so many things to deal with. But yes, because then I, at one point, maybe within the next year, I recognize that at age three. I saw an image of myself at age three standing at windows looking out and realizing that I had made the choice to be emotionally self supportive. Like I had to take care of myself emotionally because nobody was available to help me.

So that was a really profound memory that came as a result of, and I was holding my doll, so I, had my safety net but it was just, and whatever, three-year-old language, but I'm, as an adult, looking back and seeing that three-year-old making that choice. And then there was a lot of consciousness as therapy went on about why I flirted all the time.

With people who are older. Guys in high school when I was in elementary school. Why I was so attracted to older men because, I was sexually abused by somebody older. And so it was really, there were a lot of things, patterns and things that just started making sense. And of course, by that time I'd already had the experience of sex by the time I was 40 by the time of the memory and, with male adults.

And I, one of the things I recognized, it also got really clear to me in this therapeutic process and that my therapist pointed out to me, that's very common when you're especially young being sexually abused, that your emotional body detaches and leaves while you're being sexually abused. And so I had an experience of being aware.

That when I would have sex, then as an adult, I would leave emotionally, I just wouldn't be present. That took a lot of work to be able to get back and to trust my emotional part of me to be in my body having sex. That was, I think a major part of all the different modes of work that I did was that was for that purpose.

So the journey of feeling safe again, to be embodied during sensation, arousal, pleasure, intimacy especially when your first imprints, it sounds like when you were very young had established a certain pattern with your body engaging in sexuality. So there's so many important points that you bring up here.

One is that, when the memories did come back to you at 40, as you said, it's not like one session and your memories come back and you're done. It's quite a journey of integration, recognizing the effects. And I would imagine just so you know, as you're sharing so many things about your behavior, then can make sense.

And there's a place to make sense of it in your mind where, whereas before, perhaps it was really confusing to understand your own behavior. Yeah, I thought, of course I thought there was something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? That I can't stay in a long-term relationship that was like I had one.

That lasted a year and all the rest of my relationships were short because I would just emotionally not be able to be go. I just couldn't sustain being in a relationship emotionally. I would just, okay. I gotta get outta here. Yeah. I wanna bring up something that as a child, your capacity for energy and particularly the high voltage of erotic energy is contained to it's limited and the energy of the voltage of an adult.

It sounds like adult males is so overpowering that the only way to. Experience that is to leave your body because it's so overwhelming to the smaller body. And a couple of things. One, the pattern of dissociating can be an imprint that stays into adulthood. And as well what you're speaking to Pam, there can also be a, an imprint of a lack of courtship in relationships where you go from kind of meeting to a sexual overload.

And that emotional evolution in courtship never had a chance to evolve. And so that pattern can also stay into adulthood. Which it sounds like, that's, yeah, that's what it sounds like, a lack of kind of emotional evolution in your adult relationships before, before you realize this. Yeah.

And yeah, I think. Even after, while I was, I didn't date anybody for a while when I first started doing the sexual healing work on, having memories, because the thought of that was just overwhelming. But I was single and it was a few years before I could date. And engage in any kind of a sexual relationship.

So I had a lot of time to do some work, to do some healing work, and it was better, I was more emotionally available. By the time I started getting into a, I ended up in a six and a half year relationship, and so I was more emotionally available, but there was still a part of me that it was another 10 years after that ended before I was seven years after that ended before I recognized, oh, now I know what it feels like to actually be emotionally embodied.

Like I remember the day that happened. That was a big deal. Yes. Yes. So this is very exciting because this is really signs that the work you'd been doing was manifesting in your embodiment. Can you share with us what were the most influential and supportive experiences during that time that you feel like allowed for that the beginnings of that emotional embodiment and intimacy?

First of all, remembering that I was sexually abused, obviously, having a safe therapist that I, whom I really trusted, who had done a lot of work with people. Who had been sexually abused for some reason it wasn't a specialty. She just ended up attracting a lot of clients during a certain time period.

And I asked her at one point, 'cause I knew she had other female clients, I said, would you be willing to start a group for women who had been sexually abused so we could talk with each other? Because one of the things I also recognized is that I had a huge trust of not trusting other women because of all the projection, the, what is called the mother wound, a projection onto my mother that she didn't protect me.

There's a whole conversation around that. Yes, we could do a whole separate podcast just on that, but that she wasn't protecting me and didn't stop this. As if she could. There's no mother in the world who can do that because who's ever, regardless of the relationship. With the child, whether it's a neighbor, her husband, her dating guy, her brother, whatever it is, right?

Her son, whatever the abuser is so well trained at, so good at seducing the child that and won't knows, the child won't tell. There's all, I've written a whole article on that, so I know that I, but it doesn't matter 'cause it was my emotional side was going how come my mother isn't there to protect me?

How come my mother isn't right? So getting, I didn't trust women. To have my back. Yeah. My therapist was the only one I really trusted to have my back and I wanted that to be different. I didn't wanna have the rest of my life being not trusting women. So that was a huge thing.

This group met for two years, once a month for two years, and I developed some great friendships with the women in that group and I learned how to trust other women and by hearing their stories, having more compassion for them and understanding what they were going through, and they had similar issues around not trusting women.

That was a huge impact for me. A huge change in my direction about my capacity to have relationships as women. Big deal. Yeah. That is really huge. And yeah. We could do a whole podcast just on that. The disappointment, anger, all the emotions that go into feeling that someone who was supposed to protect you didn't when in fact, in most situations they don't know.

They don't know. Or they're ill-equipped or they can't. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine, Pam, how being in a group with other women and really empathizing with their stories and feeling, really feeling them allowed that barrier to really melt away. It did. It was really, it was, I wouldn't have guessed that's what it was that was gonna come out of that group.

Other things did, but that was one of the main things that really shifted. At a very conscious level. And also during that time, I'd love to ask you, was writing articles initially anonymously for magazine, were the articles about your journey of sexual embodiment or Yes. There were a variety of things.

I wrote one, and there's a woman that I had met who was writing, my therapist, told me about, who was publishing a monthly magazine called The Healing Woman for Women who had, for people who had been sexually abused. And so I thought I'm just gonna contribute my experience. So one of the articles was ways that I abandoned myself and I had a list of 47 things.

This was like a few years into the recovery that I recognized, or ways that I had abandoned myself as a result of being sexually abused. One of them was on the mother wound and there were multiple parts to that story. I just re I found that article the other day that I had printed out that I wrote in the nineties and reread the whole thing.

It's 11 pages. Typed, like size 10 point font. It's a lot of, there's a lot in that article. And I wrote another one that I can't remember what it was, but it was about different aspects of the healing journey, different things that I recognized, and at the end, I finally was using my name. But I did it anonymously for a while and then, used a pen name and then finally used my name at the end. So that's a real it's such a reflection in your ownership of your journey to, to not be anonymous about your experiences, right? But I had to feel safe enough to do that, right?

I had to, yes, get to a place where I could do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really, I feel like the, one of the themes that's emerging already is, and it's, I think it's a critical core one for any kind of healing, but especially sexual healing is the role that safety plays in the body, and specifically the nervous system within the body's sense of readiness to address something.

Certainly to engage, be public, and to yeah. Start resolving is that sense of safety. Pamela, I wanna go back to the women's group because I'm wondering, I'm guessing that your relationship with yourself as a woman was deeply impacted by the, your ability to relate with other women and than and love other women in the group.

Yes, of course. It was totally, yes. I got a lot more self-loving and self-accepting. Of who I was and also saw, at every level, every turn of healing around sexual abuses is having permission to take ownership of the fact that it's not my fault. Yes. And that's a very healing thing. And listening to all these other women's stories, that was another thing that emerged that I could just be kinder to myself and less mean to myself and open my heart more because I was realizing I wasn't alone.

I wasn't the only one. And they all have different stories, all of them different stories. No two. Same. Which is also an interesting. Experience, yeah. What you're sharing is so important because it is so common for children to mistakenly blame ourselves for what happens to us, and the danger of children thinking that they are bad rather than they did something bad.

And that identity sticking to them, and especially when it comes to the wiring or association with the body, with touch with arousal or pleasure, the guilt and shame that can get wired into those experiences that, can stay into adulthood. Yeah. And most children are seduced and told that they want this or that it's their fault, so it also gets implanted in their consciousness.

That they're responsible for it, because why would the abuser take responsibility? So it sounds between the time that the memories returned through the breath work at 40 and our first meeting at the Tantra retreat in Desert Hot Springs working with this therapist, feeling safe enough, start to feel your embodied sensations and emotions and the women's group, these were all really played critical critical role.

And there was, yeah, there was one other really significant organ process that I went through, and that is in 2000, I started. Voice lessons, and I'm doing air quotes on voice lessons because the purpose of the teacher's capacity was to hold a huge emotional space for people. And her experience was the more that you get connected to how you really feel in your true emotions and the obstacles in the way of having your real voice, the better you're gonna sing.

So I worked with her over a seven year period from 2000 to 2007. So I had already started that work with her by the time we met in 2003. And had done a lot of already processing of how sexual abuse and other related things had impacted my voice and my singing voice. I'm a very.

Clear singing voice and I have organic, I have an organic design to sing well, but there was a lot of emotional stuff in the way of me sounding appealing. That was one of the challenges is that there was just so much anger. And of course on the other thing that happened from the time that woman's group happened until I met you and before I started working with this woman, was that I was in a six and a half year relationship with a man.

So there was a lot that happened in that relationship where I got to explore my sexuality and learned more about safety and learn what scared the shit out of me and what I couldn't do what was not okay. But he was a good listener in many ways, and so I had a chance to do a lot of of healing around having a relationship with a man in that relationship.

That sounds phenomenal. That sounds really, yeah, really pivotal. 'cause it sounds like it was the first, I don't know, Pamela would you call that it was the first, it was, yeah, the first healthy sexual, communicative intimate relating. And while you were going through that, oh my god, your voice teacher and her approach.

Sounds like everyone could use it, right? You bet. That's profound for so many reasons. The throat is really has so many parallels to the pelvis. The throat nerve correlates with the pelvic nerve. Our jaw muscles correlate to our SOAs muscles and they're both major orifices of the body.

And so I, my teachers in Europe, they always start opening the pelvis by opening the throat, but to then get in touch with the emotions that are preventing an open and clear. Vocal expression. That must have just been profound. It was. I'll give you a couple examples. There was a day when I was aware of feeling jealous of one of the other women in the class.

'cause we would do these someday one day workshops, or two day workshops. And there's this one woman who was a really good singer and I loved her voice and I was really jealous of how cool she sounded, right? So I was sharing this in the class and my teacher said, your assignment today is to feel jealousy.

Like your assignment for the whole day is to just feel jealousy. And so I just sat there for about an hour. Other people were having their turns and whatever. And I sat there for an hour and I was just aware of getting really conscious of how I felt jealous. And I felt the jealousy in my body and I had pro full permission to feel it right.

That was the assignment, full permission to feel it. And I got angry inside myself. I was crying and I learned how to cry in front of this group. Early on because a lot of people did that in order to heal. Like crying is such a great healing experience. So I was crying for some of it. Sometimes I was laughing with myself about it, but I'm in my own little world feeling jealousy.

In about an hour, I was just completely laughing at myself. And I had com gotten over the jealousy 'cause I had permission to fully feel it. So that was like, we did a lot of things like that in this class. And then there was another day when my cat died, after my cat died, that we were having a weekend workshop for three days and I was getting ready to move from San Jose to Palm Desert.

And I knew I was moving and I knew I was moving like within a week or two. Like it was all like my, I think my cat died within two weeks of my move, which was, a whole nother story. It was perfect. He and I had a lot of psychic conversation about him leaving, 'cause it wasn't gonna work for him to go with me.

So I, she said, your job this weekend is to cry and to feel all your sadness and to feel your grief. And she was very attached to animals. She got it. So I spent a weekend just sobbing a lot, and then I'd sing and my voice would sound better and then I'd cry some more and then my voice would sound better and I'd sing and then we'd eat, and I was like crying off and on for three days, just sobbing when I felt like it, or little bits of crying or whatever, full permission to feel grief, nondescript at some point.

It wasn't attached to anything specific. That was so healing. And that gave my voice more permission to be free to sing with more clarity. 'cause I wasn't holding down those feelings. I was feeling them. Yes. Yes. That really is really profound. And the disarming work that we do, whether it's pelvic or genital or another part of the body, it's really unprocessed and held emotions in the tissues and musculature of the body that causes pain, that causes stiffness, that causes blocks from sensation and emotion.

And so to just have this permission to feel and express, wow, what a cathartic release from the body. It was. It was huge. Wow. That is really huge. So all of these things really prepared you for the retreat where we met. And I'm curious, like how did you end up at a Tantra retreat? Good question.

Yeah. 'cause it sounds like the evolution of everything makes sense because you're getting closer and closer to your sexuality and reclaiming your sexuality. But how was it exactly that you ended up, because it was a week week long retreat and it's, it's not for the faint hearted.

It's really a deep dive. It was not for the faint hearted. I actually had moved to the desert, right to Palm Desert and I started going to see a network chiropractor, Lexi, who also was doing tantra and she was holding women's groups where we just meet for a couple hours and learned some tantric breathing or whatever it was, and so I met her in March of 2002 'cause I was in a lot of pain after moving a lot of boxes and needed some chiropractic help. So I found her and she was in Palm Springs, which was great 'cause I didn't have to drive that far to see her. And then she started talking with me about Tan after we had a few sessions and just invited me to some stuff.

So it was, it would be then, that was 10 months before you and I met, so I had multiple workshops with her. That were women. And then she had a couple that were with men and women where we were, again, doing some tantric practices, fully clothed of course, but tantric practices where we're just, so I was already in alignment with trusting her.

I had met her partner, Kip, she and I became good friends and I just, she just invited me because I thought, why not? Yep. Yeah, it sounded like it was a gradual from women's groups, breathing it, there was then, and then co-ed groups, and then it was the next step.

Yeah, it was the thing that she was offering. And I didn't have a partner, so I didn't, I said, I don't know if I can go, 'cause I don't have a partner. And she said let's just hold space for somebody to show up and who also doesn't have a partner. And I said, okay, just trust.

And lo and behold, there you were. Yes. Yes. I think it was four, four pairs of people, if I remember correctly. I think it was, yeah. Yeah. And they really sequenced it very mindfully, where obviously, where day by day it's moving deeper and deeper to the the last two days where we held space for the inner pelvic release and, yeah, just to give listeners a sense of what that was. So to define what that was. It's really holding a sacred, safe space using the principles of sounding presence. So we're always connected with eye contact, and this is partly to ensure that people don't dissociate or leave their bodies to make sure that there's another body there.

Another being to ground the experience and we are mirroring the breathing and the sounding to also ground the experience and also expand the channel through which the contracted energy can release. As we're breathing and sounding as one and sounding as in toning and making sound, I just wanna make sure that we're clear about what sounding is for people.

Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And we are very gently listening to the body and moving at a pace that feels safe for the body making contact. So that's touch palpation at areas of the tissue. The tissue of the genitalia and sensing for any areas of pain, numbness, discomfort, and breathing into those sensations and expressing s toning sound to release that.

And oftentimes that is a indication that there is held un unintegrated emotion there. And so oftentimes emotions will have an opportunity to release and be expressed as a result. So I'm curious, Pamela, help me understand what that experience was for you and where that fits in your journey in the reclamation of your sexual wholeness.

I think part of the time I was a little checked out emotionally. I don't think I was fully present. I'm sure you were aware of that. Because I hadn't gotten there yet. I was in that process. I was more present than I would've been, earlier, but I was still partially checked out.

And I was aware of that some of the time and sometime not. So that was an important piece of the consciousness for me. But I just had to trust to me the whole time that nobody was gonna harm me. That I was safe because, and we talked about a safety earlier, this is big theme in my life is feeling safe.

And so I just had to trust that I was safe and taken care of and that felt true. I really trusted you. I trusted myself. I trusted the leaders of the group to make sure that was true and that I, if I needed, if something was coming up, that I could talk to somebody about it, right? So I felt protected and safe.

That was a really important part. And then by being able to be naked and touching each other's bodies, knowing that there was not an expectation of having sex, I was freer to just be in the flow of whatever was up. And taken care of and supported and not having, like I said, to perform or to be there for somebody else.

When it was my turn to be acknowledged and taken care of, I just got to receive. Yes. That was huge. I think. Yeah, that really is huge. There's a couple of great points that wanna underscore. One is that, when this kind of work, it is such incredibly vulnerable work, especially when one has a history of their boundaries being violated, that.

Any, anything that can forward and deepen the sense of safety and trust in the space. Holding is really one of the main jobs of the facilitator, the workshop. Organizer or the practitioner. Yeah. And acknowledging that anything can switch on a dime. And it's like putting your body in charge of what the experience is gonna be like.

You could have changed your mind. You could have set something out like there's, no sense of obligation or forcing the body to do anything that it doesn't want. And it sounds like for you, Pamela, knowing that it was not about sex took a lot of pressure off and just you were able to focus on your own experience of receiving and healing.

And there was one other thing that happened always in a tantric experience before the puja there, the women in the men separate. And so what the women did when we were not with the men, is that Lexi had us take mirrors and look at our genitals. Which, this is the first time I'd done that.

And that was an eyeopening experience to have permission, first of all to do that, but to actually do it in a very, again, very safe environment. It never occurred to me. Whoever trained you to look at your genitals in a mirror. So that was huge. It is. It is huge. And I think it's yeah. So for you, it sounds like it was profound 'cause it was the first time you had done that.

And the permission to do it. Because, there's often this don't play with yourself consciousness that round masturbation is bad and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of hands off, literally. Although I masturbate, that was not an issue. But but looking was a different experience.

It was really a different experience in that. So I, is it, I isn't it it's quite intimate, isn't it? Yes. Very intimate. To really take the time to actually take in your genitalia and admire and appreciate and recognize all the little different subtleties. Yeah, I wish we, I wish that was part of our sex ed.

I wish too. Yeah. So I'd love to know Pamela, because between that workshop, which was profound for me as well, both as a future practitioner and someone receiving that kind of inner pelvic work, I just recommend for everyone. It just, both as a giver and a receiver, you just learn so much about the intricacies, the vulnerabilities, the magnificence of the human body and what it's capable of.

But then between then and the next time our paths crossed, 11 years later, I'm wondering how your journey of. Inhabiting your body and feeling safe with your sexuality, how, like what happened between that period that prepared you for the sessions that we eventually did? It's interesting because after that, within a year after that session, or maybe sooner after that, I made a choice to stop dating for a while until I got emotionally more healthy.

I just kept attracting, unavailable men and I knew there had to be something in me that was emotionally unavailable. So I finished working with this teacher in 2007, the voice teacher, and so I did that. I did a lot more work with her. Then over the next four years really some really deep, profound work and a lot of grief work.

And learning to love myself like that was feel, having permission to feel a lot of grief and rage led to a lot of self-love. So that was a significant part of the journey for me. Again, it took a lot of courage, a lot of, I agree with you. I am one of the most courageous people I know as well. Yeah. It took a lot of courage to go to some of those emotional places that I went to. I moved out of the desert. I reconnected, I moved back to San Jose for a little while where my family of origin was and did some healing work with my family. Which was really important while I was working, and just, and then I ended up moving to Los Angeles, which is where we reconnected.

'cause you've always lived in LA but I was living in the desert when we met and we ran into each other at a fundraising event. And so I was at a re retreat with a woman that I met in LA that I was doing some re work for from 2013. In 2014, in January on my birthday, I was 66 at a tan retreat, naked and blindfolded, having a day where for two hours a man was responsible for feeding me and taking care of me.

And I told him to, asked me questions about me when I was blindfolded. And I was really vulnerable and naked for these four days with these people that, some of them I had, most of them I had been to other retreats with. So I knew, and that's where I where when the women and men separated, as they do in tan retreats, she showed us a yoni massage.

And that opened so many doors for me. The yoni massage experience. Yeah. The women and men were separated. The men were out doing whatever they were doing, but the women, she was showing us how to do that with each other. And, yeah. So I'm, I'd love to know what about that experience receiving yoni massage from another woman.

Help us understand what made that so impactful and profound for you. What was so impactful was, first of all, somebody was, again, paying attention to my genitals with no agenda. It wasn't about sex at all. It was, and what she was doing was touching each part of the outer lips of the labia for two minutes, just holding her fingers in one place and then moving to another place for two minutes, and another place, and the either pleasure or pain or numbness. I was shocked that I had all these different feelings going on in my labia that I had no idea. Was there. So that was first of all, recognizing really literally how much memory gets stored in our genitals.

I was like, oh my God, I had no idea. Oh, this place is painful and this place is really pleasurable and this place is numb. Can't even feel it. So that was shocking. And then the whole gazing at Myoni, just gaz, just like for the first two minutes she was just gazing, like just, and I just felt this huge rush of pleasure inside my body that someone was paying attention to my genitals again with no agenda, but was complete pleasure.

Whoever gets that. Yeah. It reminds me of the experience you shared earlier of having a mirror and examining your own genitalia. Just how profound these simple practices are and can be. And it's not only the action, but it's really the intention and the space holding of having No, just as you're saying, having no other agenda but to listen, to, respond to and hold space for the genitalia and whatever stories the tissues within the genitalia have to tell.

Which is what we did. This is what the work that we did for, I don't know, almost two years over time, over two years of time. So it sounds like it was a really wonderful prelude to when we, our paths reconnected and you received sessions through our work together. I would love to.

Oh, and it's really significant, the being blindfolded, being naked and being responded to by a male energy. I'll just say, because that really re, it re imprints a new story in your body about trust that you can receive safety and pleasure from a a male being right? Yes. Which was another part of the journey, right?

And then that particular guy and I ended up doing yoni massage together. We had eight sessions over the next few months. I got a lot more in depth. Experience with it, right? From a man who was not a sexual partner, right? He was a tantra partner and we were friends and we got to know each other a lot better, but there was never a sexual relationship.

So I learned so much about receiving, just being, it's, it was all about me. So again, those Yoni's massage sessions were all about me, so I got to receive yeah. Without any agenda of what his needs were. I think that's so profound, and I really do believe that is such an integral part of genital healing is because I think our genitals in our society, they, there's so much pressure and everyone's always taking from them.

And in some situations we use them ourselves to barter for social acceptance or our identity or image. But then to have experiences as you're describing where. There's no agenda, there's nothing, no performative aspect. It's just him holding space for you and your genitalia to receive and explore what it is to receive in those sensations and feelings.

Yeah, exactly. But the receiving piece was the most, there was a lot of healing that happened with him and with you. 'cause you came on the end of that. A lot of healing that happened around the capacity to receive from a man I deserve to receive from a man. I don't have to be the giver all the time.

That was huge. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that really. It sounds, Pamela, it sounds like that was like the really great preparation and prelude for the sessions and the work that we did. Yes. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been ready for you. Pamela, can you share for you, because I have my perspective as a practitioner as to what were some of the key moments in the evolution of your embodiment and reclamation, but I'd love to hear from you.

It's been quite a while now, but what do you recall as being really key in reclaiming and restoring your sexual wholeness? There were like four or five, I was thinking about this morning 'cause I knew we were gonna talk. So there were like four or five really significant things.

One of which was having permission to move at my pace and if something hurt to be able to stop to acknowledge that it hurt instead of tolerating it. And you would apply whatever intuitive process that you knew to do to help move through the pain. And so I had permission to say, wait, something's going on here that needs some attention.

I instead of just tolerating, right? And that applies to a lot of aspects of my life, right? Where I don't have to just tolerate stuff. That was huge. I remember the day, and this was pretty far into our sessions, when my vagina actually, when you had your fingers inside my vagina, and I felt pain and I realized I had been numbed out all this time, and all of a sudden there was pain.

I go, oh my God. I think I've had a numb vagina for a long time. And I had no idea it was numb because I couldn't feel anything, but I didn't know that I was supposed to feel stuff in places that I couldn't feel it. That was huge. The G-spot for in the beginning of our work together was it, there was some stimulation, but it also was really tender and sore.

And over time it got to a place where it was just complete pleasure. That was a huge change. It's oh, there isn't pain involved in the G-spot now. And so that was a big shift. And knowing about the anterior part of the vagina, I didn't even know it existed, but how much pleasure there was there.

And just and on, entering into my vagina, there were time for a long time it hurt. And I remember there was a day when it didn't hurt anymore and it was like, oh my God, this is so amazing. But all of the journey that we had been on and the work that had been done and my part of it, in your part of it, of having permission for me.

To be able to be safe again with you and go at my pace and not somebody else's pace, and trusting that I was being taken care of and you had my back. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, there's, there're just really core themes that you're speaking to and one that keeps recurring in our conversation today is, a huge part of the restoration of the body to feel safe involves putting the body in the driver's seat of what it wants or doesn't wanna experience.

And once the body has that. Evidence that it's actually in charge of what happens. It can actually relax and be open to receiving. So you knowing that whatever your, whatever you were ready for, not ready for really ruled or dictated or guided the session, it sounds like. Yeah. Was really put your nervous system at ease.

Yeah. And yeah, I, it really, it's just really inspiring for me to know how the body can respond in that way from numbness to pain or discomfort to pleasure. And it really, over the years I've recognized how that really mirrors our nervous system going from a freeze response to a fight or flight, which is usually the pain or discomfort to a social engagement stage, which is, where the peace and pleasure and joy can come in.

We now witnessing that kind of evolution is, it's miraculous. I think it's one of the deepest privileges that a practitioner can witness, but Pamela like really reclaiming your pleasure and your body and your voice and, expressing what it is that your body wants and doesn't want.

All of that. It feels like you, it goes back to the voice teacher and the way you were expressing. You learned to reclaim your voice, embody your emotions and sensations. Everything you had done really prepared your, prepared, you magnificently really for the experiences of holding space for yourself during our sessions.

Totally. And I trusted myself so much by the time you and I started working together. Yes. Yes. That I knew and I trusted you, but I mostly, I had to trust myself to know that I could ask for what I needed or wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Some things that I recall from that series is, there's a number of things.

I remember at one point I, it might have been your, the tissues around your G-spot or somewhere else, but the emotion that was coming up for you was around confusion. And it may have been because what you were, the sensations you were experiencing were both a mixture of pain and pleasure and it was a situation where a lot of times in Sessions, clients may think they're feeling confusion in the moment, but it's actually, it can also be the memory of confusion that's in the tissue.

Because, obviously when someone is being abused by someone they know, there can be a lot of confusion involved. And there are other emotions like frustration or boredom that people may assume is happening in the moment, but it's actually. It's actually unintegrated emotions from past sexual experiences.

But what I recall specifically Pamela, is after you were present with that confusion and we did some breathing and gave it a voice it evolved into arousal and pleasure. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there was one other time where, it had to do with reclaiming your voice. There were words that came out saying, stop or stop it now.

And it, it's just so important that the body gets to experience and express what it may not have had permission to. Certainly in instances of a violation or boundary breach, really whatever it wants to at any time. That could have even applied to me in my life, having sex with somebody that I said yes to but didn't really wanna have sex with.

That I didn't have permission to say no. Yes. Yeah. Really letting the body to have its free reign and its free voice. Yeah. Pamela, I would love to ask, because it's been such a rich journey for you in reclaiming your sexuality, what advice would you give to listeners who have endured a breach of boundaries or perhaps sexual abuse and aren't really sure how to approach their healing?

I'd say, first of all, you have permission to do the healing work in spite of all the people around you who may say you should forget about it and put it in the past if they know about it. So you have the right to do the healing work you wanna do. Having a support system is absolutely necessary.

Absolutely necessary. And if you are married and have children and you wanna do this work and you're not ready to tell your husband, for example, or your wife, you can have a therapist and a best friend as a support system, right? But it's important that, and the other thing I'm gonna say is don't tell people about this.

If you know you're gonna get negative feedback or they're gonna be pushing against you, or wanting to be in denial about it, or they can't handle it or whatever, do not think that you have to tell people just because you're related to them or you're best friends with 'em or whatever. Because a lot, as you mentioned real early on, it's unbelievable the quantities of people who have had some kind of sexual violation.

It's just, it's so predominant and it can be little things that they're not even aware of. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be penetration with a penis, right? It doesn't have to be that there are so many other ways that sexual violation happens that causes a impact. So be very trusting of yourself about who you share your journey with, because not everybody can handle it.

And that to me is one of the most important things to, to honor yourself with. Is having a trusted people who have your back. And that if you start working with a therapist and you don't like them, go to somebody else. You don't have to just stay with somebody because, if they don't have experience in this area, they're not gonna be able to help you.

Absolutely met them, met the therapist. Yeah, I think those are fantastic. What? That's fantastic. The permission is so huge. Giving yourself the permission, I think it's like the biggest step, it's the first step really and the most important one. And yeah, I hear the importance of having that support system.

So your whole nervous system can feel safe as you engage in this really sacred journey of reclaiming yourself, right? Because once you can't not know. Let me put it this way. Some people have memories and then they go into denial about it because they don't want to, or they think they made it up, or somebody convinces them, they made it up.

So you can not know, except at some level you always do know. Pamela, thank you so much. You're for your, you're welcome. Yeah. For being who you are and for radiating your light and for being such a powerful guide for others. So Pamela, you can visit Pamela. She has a whole range of offerings at her website, pamela landers.com.

So Pamela also has offered workshops for leaders to address their leadership wounds. She is in a currently offering a six month self-mastery course, and I think she's, one of the people who really takes ownership of self-honoring and taking full ownership of her gifts. She has a whole range of offerings at her website that I would encourage you to check out, and she's also written an ebook on all of the inappropriate ways people become sex sexualized in our society.

Pamela, is that available on your website? It's not on my website 'cause my website is only focused on hand analysis. But if people can email me at pamela@pamelalanders.com and I'd be happy to share how they can get ahold of that. Okay. It's a new book. Yeah. Wonderful, Pamela, thanks so much for who you are and for sharing yourself today.

You're welcome. Thanks for asking. My pleasure.

Notice how this episode is landing in your body right now.

Would it be grounding for you to tap opposite sides of your body with each hand walk around your home or outside feeling your feet firmly supported by the ground? Are there parts of your body that have emotions wanting to be expressed? How would it be to put pen to paper, voice to emotion, sharing your body's stories with a trusted friend, or perhaps there are parts of your body that need to be acknowledged and touched with your own hands with love, compassion, gratitude, and understanding.

Please take care and seek trusted support from safe resources if you sense this is needed or wanted.

 Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care.