Generated by All in One SEO Pro v5.0.1.1, this is an llms-full.txt file, used by LLMs to index the site. # Rahi Chun Honoring your Body’s Organic Nature for Intimacy, Pleasure, and Wholeness. ## Posts ### [How Couples Can Satiate Evolving Sexual Desires Within A Committed Relationship With Dolly Josette](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-couples-can-satiate-evolving-sexual-desires-within-a-committed-relationship-with-dolly-josette/) **Published:** April 13, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Dolly Josette, also known as "The Vulva Whisperer" and named "a leading practitioner of hands-on sexual therapy" by Hustler magazine, shares her journey of reclamation from a lack of sexual aliveness to an aligned, prioritized, pleasure-filled marriage. She also explains how her training as a Somatica Practitioner blends beautifully with her space-holding as a Sexological Bodyworker, and the magical benefits of genital mapping, one-way touch, and intentional touch for emotional healing in deepening pleasure, intimacy and connection for couples. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover-1024x1024.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # [How Couples Can Satiate Evolving Sexual Desires Within A Committed Partnership with Dolly Josette](https://www.buzzsprout.com/1648990/episodes/12646725 "How Couples Can Satiate Evolving Sexual Desires Within A Committed Partnership with Dolly Josette") Accessing pleasure points in the pelvis for practical healing with Beaudoin Bodywork Accessing pleasure points in the pelvis for practical healing with Beaudoin Bodywork # # # **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** I’ve known Dolly for years as a wonderful and esteemed colleague in the field of somatic sexology, and was taken by her leadership when she stewarded the U.S. Somatic Sex Education trainings via her Somatic Institute during which time, she was also President of our Association of Certified Sexological Bodyworkers. When we exchanged sessions as peers, we both recognized the unique gifts and skills we each offer and got inspired about how we could come together to synergize our space-holding for couples. We are both very excited about bringing intimacy and sexological bodyworker practices and wisdom to empower couples to deepen, heal, expand and enjoy the erotic and erogenous wisdom our bodies are here to relish, explore and embody. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/DollyJosette-scaled.jpeg "DollyJosette | Rahi Chun") [PleasureMuse.com](https://www.pleasuremuse.com/) [EmbodiedErosForCouplesWorkshop](https://somaticsexualwholeness.mykajabi.com/eros) Dolly Josette is a Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, Somatica Practitioner, and founder of [PleasureMuse.com](https://pleasuremuse.com/), coaching women and couples on intimacy enhancement, sexual confidence, healing shame and expanding pleasure potential so they can cultivate embodied intimacy to have the best, most connected sex of their life. Because of her signature online video course, “Touch-Feel-Connect – Vulva-Vaginal Mapping for Women” and her “Vulva Hug Meditation,” she’s been called the Vulva Whisperer, Vulva Queen and even a Vulva Therapist. Couples rave about her in-person immersions and have commented that they feel like they are dating anew. Teaching women and couples how to become their own Muse is truly her biggest joy so these somatic tools can support their evolving sensual and sexual needs, as they learn how to listen to their body and what it wants in life, in relationship and in solitude. In addition to her commitment to relationship upgrades, Dolly was the 2019-20 President of the Association of Certified Sexological Bodyworkers and produced certification trainings with I.S.S. for Somatic Sexological Bodyworkers in 2019 and 2020 in LA. She holds a Masters degree in Education, a Bachelors degree in Broadcast Journalism, Certifications from the Institute of Somatic Sexology (I.S.S.) and The Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality, among countless other continuing-ed credentials, including Somatica® and Wheel of Consent®. She’s been featured on various podcasts, including Sex with Emily, in addition to Cosmopolitan and Hustler Magazine. *We explore:* $ How comfort and safety within a committed relationship can be balanced with spontaneity and the fulfillment of evolving sexual desires, individually and as a couple. $ How Dolly got her groove back – first by becoming her own inner lover and pleasure activist, kissing a lot of frogs, and magnetizing her husband Jason, who also prioritized an intentional and active pleasure-filled marriage. $ How being a hydrotherapist and providing a safe space for clients to irrigate their colons and their emotions – revealed that Dolly had the perfect skills for holding space for clients to honor and take ownership of their sexual embodiment and wholeness. $ How the Somatica Method empowers couples to learn to honor safe attachment within a partnership, whilst being true to one’s self and their individual needs. $ How a vaginal mapping exercise with her husband during her sexological bodyworker training lead to a deep dearmouring emotional release – so intimate and connecting that it’s informed how Dolly holds space for couples. $ How the body knows when touch is being done from a place of taking as opposed to a place of giving, and how armour and numbness as well as resentment can build as a result – affecting libido and desire. $ How re-orienting the body to its initial language of touch sensations, and learning how to prioritize this language in infinitely new ways with a lover can lead to a shift in pleasure connection & consciousness within a marriage. $ The differences between pleasurable touch and pleasurable touch that leads to deep emotional healing for couples. $ How genital mapping can support profound transformatons in agency, attunement to pace and pausing for shared arousal, de-shaming, and reclaiming the body’s full erogenous capacity. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological body worker and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. Today we invite Dolly Josette, also known as the Vulva Whisperer to the podcast. I've known Dolly for years as an esteemed leader in our somatic sexology community, a colleague with whom I've enjoyed peer session exchanges with, and now a coco collaborator as we are holding space for couples to deepen and expand their sexual intimacy skills and know-how with each other. I find her enthusiasm, her wisdom, and her love for this sacred work to be infectious. Rahi: I am really excited to be inviting Dolly Josette to the podcast today. I've known Dolly for years. I've been a big fan of hers, and it's a thrill, uh, to have her here to share her wisdom, her journey, and her expertise. Dolly is a somatic sexologist as well as a certified sexological body worker, and as well a Somatica practitioner, which is pretty unique in our field for someone to be both. Uh, previously Dolly ran a health coaching and hydrotherapy clinic as a certified nutritionist and hydrotherapist, and before that, she was also a TV producer in New York City and LA for over 15 years. I met Dolly when she was the president of our Association of certified Sexological Body Workers, and ran the US SexBod trainings here in Los Angeles at her Somatic Institute. I'm really thrilled to be co-facilitating a very special two day event with Dolly embodied eras for couples Touch Feel connect on May 27th and 28th here in Redondo Beach, where we'll have the chance to empower couples with the intimacy and sexological body worker skills and practices. We feel all couples should really be empowered with. All the details for that experience are at somatic sexual wholeness.mykajabi.com/ros. But separately from co-facilitating this, I've wanted my audience to hear about your experiences, Dolly of your own intimate journey of reclaiming yourself as an erotic being as a pleasure activist, and in doing so, magnetizing. Jason. Your pleasure muse, welcome to the podcast. Dolly: Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, I've been a long admirer of you, um, Rahi, and it's so wonderful to have your leadership, you know, in the community. And we finally did an exchange, gosh, what, a year, a year and a year and a half ago where I was in my LA office and I said, let's, let's have some support. Like, let's see how each other works. I was leaning into something that I was curious about learning for my own body at that time, and you were curious about how I work with sexological body work and Somatica, and so we'll get into that in a little bit. So, I, I just, when I worked with you, I felt safe as a client, safe as a practitioner, and I was really excited about bringing this work to couples. It's really one of my big motivations because I'm a person. Dolly: I, I love being married. It's just, it's just my thing. And I had a marriage that didn't work, and I was devastated by it. And when our sexual compatibility and desires just were not able to be expressed in my first marriage, I felt like, wow, I am, what is wrong? Like, I did every kind of class, every kind of everything to like elicit the attention and desire for my husband, and we were just not on the same page with this mm-hmm. . And I really thought long and hard because he was somebody that I, I loved very much, still do, like he's family, but I just couldn't think of my life being in a place where I couldn't have this, this part of our, of our body, the sexual desire, like really met. And I thought, oh, it's so trivial. I can learn to live without it or, but I, I was sad on the weekends, my body shut down. Dolly: I just, I, I just couldn't wait to get to work. I mean, it should be the opposite, right? . And at the time, I was a TV producer and I just could not see this part of my life, which I, I thought, well, this is such a special part of my life that's supposed to be unique to married couples. Like, this is what I get to express with this person of choice. Um, and so I just couldn't see living without it because what was happening for me is I was becoming further and further away from myself. I was not recognizing myself because this part of me is really an integral part of, of who I am. And so when I was brave to, to step away from the relationship, I really went on a journey of self-discovery, of like embodiment of lots of self touch, pleasure, practice healing. Dolly: I really just had to rebuild my relationship with myself in terms of my own erotic connection, my own touch and expression. I went on all kinds of fun. I always say sometimes when you get divorced, you need to, sew your oats, I went and had a lot of fun with partnered interactions and sometimes you, sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogs in order to know what you don't like in order to figure out what you do like. And so I, I was just in this place where I really started to, to come to a sense of, of real groundedness and really loving who, who I was and what was showing up. It, it hadn't been a real missing for me. And I didn't realize how much it contributed to my overall just, just who I was, just how I showed up in the world. Dolly: And it's interesting because look fast forward, look at what I'm doing for a living. Cuz I was not doing this. I was a TV producer back then, . Um, when I met my husband, he had a really similar story and just in essence that our sexual selves kind of were shut down in our marriages and we just, we just had, we spoke the same language and we really connected. And I always say he became my pleasure, muse because then we just, we vibed so much. We went on so many explorations and adventures, and we said, this is going to be a part of our lives that we really want to cultivate. We don't want to let, um, move, you know, to a place of comfort. Um, I love, um, sex educator, Esther Perel talks about the things that we, we desire in a long-term relationship, comfort, safety. Dolly: Those are important, but we have to be careful that the comfort doesn't also then negate the spontaneous sexuality and the connection and the desire. Um, because yeah, comfort can mean sweatpants, , and, and we, and we can just move into that place of not trying and letting sexual desires go away. And so I'm married to my husband Jason now 13 years. We're together for 15. And yeah, we have gone through ebbs, absent flows even in our relationship, but it, it has maintained as one of the top, um, goals of us to always cultivate. And so sometimes somebody needs a little bit more space and time for healing or personal things that they're going through, or me, I just completed, you know, perimenopause, moving into menopause, the things, the body changes. And then we come back to it and we say, okay, what, what's this week? What are our goals? And we're actively looking to see how we can continue to create our, our erotic connection, our love, because it just makes us feel alive. Rahi: I'm hearing so much intentionality and really holding the space to, to make it a priority. You know, I mean, you did that for yourself, um mm-hmm. , you know, reclaiming yourself as your erotic muse. And you met Jason at a juncture where it was both a priority and you got to kind of like create this relationship almost as a, as an intentional lab for your intimate and erotic connection. Dolly: Yeah. An intentional, I love that. I've never had anybody say that to me. I really like that. Rahi: Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. I mean, that's, that's what I'm really hearing and it's ongoing as you said, you know, like our bodies change, you know, think different things affect us emotionally, which affect our arousal and libido, and you guys are just really, um, yeah. Intentional and, and having this safe container for it. So, you know, it's really interesting, Dolly, that your journey took you to not only becoming a certified sexological body worker, but also Somatica practitioner, which, you know, as I mentioned is, is is pretty rare in our field to have both. Um, how did one lead you to doing the other, um, and how do they synergize and interact as you hold space for clients? Dolly: Mm-hmm. ? Well, when I was trained as a sexological body worker, I initially did it because I was literally using it. What can I learn to cultivate and bring more to our relationship? Um, I had gone through several miscarriages. I was in my early forties, we're like, it's just not happening. You know, so if we're not using sex for pro procreation, what else is there? So it was like, well, you know, then I was introduced to Ellen Heed She thought I would be a great sexological body worker. When I was going through that period of, of miscarriages, I turned in my TV producing hat and I opened a colon hydrotherapy business. And I think that really taught me a whole nother part of my body about holding space for people, having respect for the bodies. Um, as you know, you're irrigating the colon and, you know, I would call myself a professional tummy masseuse because I would just hold people's bellies, comfort them have, you know, just thinking if the waist wanted to, you know, was gonna release, um, emotions would come out. I, I learned so much about the body and the respect of the body. And so when I met Ellen, all of this I didn't realize was just great training ground to be a sexological body worker. And then as I trained and kind of incubated, I practiced with a few clients just to see if I was any good. I was like, wow, Jason, I'm good. I'm actually Rahi: Really good. Dolly: And one of my first clients, they were a couple, and I cannot believe the amazing progress that was made with them. And I think because they were one of my early couples, it made me really just think about how couples need this work. What we were not taught in sexological body work was helping couples navigate their different desires, navigate being vulnerable. Um, you know, we learn about embodiment and attunement and holding space, don't get me wrong mm-hmm. and being, taking the somatica training, you know, you don't become a trained therapist, but you learn really how to strike the balance of individuation and attachment, because what happens in long term, so like what happened for me in my first marriage is I was kept surrendering to, no, I wanna be married. I love this person. I, and so I was letting my individuation go aside for the sake of the marriage, but then I was not recognizing myself anymore because I was not being able to be a, an sexually expressive person in this particular partnership. And so, somatica, really the nuts and bolts of it is how to strike the balance of creating safe attachment and being true to yourself. Rahi: Hmm. That is great. Dolly: It's, it's so great. And, um, Danielle and, and Celeste, the teachers who, the, the ladies who created this program, they actually had taught sexological body work for years mm-hmm. . And so what's fascinating is they know the curriculum of sexological body work, and they also saw where there was a missing. And so bringing this work together where you're looking at attachments and looking at vulnerability and empathy and how to not just think about sex like positions or technique, but how to feel met emotionally and sexually. So it was a great partnership with me and my sexological body work training. Rahi: Wow. That sounds like, yeah, exactly. What is missing in sexological body worker training? As great as it is, it sounds like such a, a great synergy of, of addressing and holding space for couples in their totality, understanding the different desires, understanding the different histories, like where can they come together? That's very, that, I mean, just hearing you describe that is very exciting to me. I'm wondering, um, I mean, I can imagine how exciting it is when you're working with couples to see the light bulbs happen and see the alignment coming together. I, I'd love to hear from you, like, in your years of working with couples, what's what, like what's, what's the biggest turn on for you? Dolly: The biggest turn on is when the sexual language or expression or ability to receive can be met by the other person. And even if it's not their same sexual style, it can be met and fulfilled. And then when it's this person's turn to have their expression, it can be met and fulfilled. So earlier I said, Jason and I spoke like the same language. We actually don't, I, he's very a sexual, like his, uh, the way Somatica describes it, like this, this hot movie that runs in your mind, you know, Jaia, our Sex a Sexological Body, we colleague developed erotic blueprints. So he's a sexual style. I'm a sensual style. You can see like, I have all my lipstick and my pink and I'm all like matching my fluffy. I need these things to like, feel into my body connected. Um, so there's different ways of approaching sexual, um, and then in sex bot, we're taught, you know, is it, is it the senses? Dolly: Is it partnership? Is it taboo? Like there's, there's all these paths of how sexual expression can be. We, we can travel many paths. And so when we can discover things for a couple, what I love about our work is because we are bringing it down to the baseline in terms of sexological body work of sensation, and what areas have not even been met or uncovered. So we can have like what a hot movie looks like and what we think sex looks like in our minds, but when we bring it back and peel the layers, the biggest learning for me in my sexological body work training were the mapping portions. I remember I had to have, um, in one of the homework assignments, we had to have a friend or a partner map us. And Jason, I asked Jason if he would, you know, put his finger inside of me and I would guide him like what it was to map me. Dolly: And he, and he did, and he found he was inside of my vagina, and he found a spot. And, and I was like, oh my God. It was in so much pain. Like, oh yeah, what do I do? What do I just hold it your finger still? Mm, breathe. I didn't know, but I just know that I movement was making me feel more cr like, like I was gonna lose it. And I just, and, and, and, and I like even held my hand over his down below, and I just was like, hold it. And then as he held it, then all these tears, all this emotion, just this wailing came out. And then after that happened, I felt a little released. And he's like, oh my God, I felt that, and here he is not trained. I had already gone through the training, or I was in the midst of the training and look at how if somebody just shows up, just can be present, can take a little bit of coaching, and I didn't know what I was doing. He didn't know what he was doing. Yeah. And we figured it out so that whatever emotion and pain was there, it literally released. And I went through the process and that example, and then doing this with couples and them finding freedom and space in their, like, healing in their genitals, de shame of deifying their genitals mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , deifying, sexual desire, all of these things like blow me away because of what's possible. Rahi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can see how, um, I mean, it's life changing. It changes the trajectory of a couple's, um, understanding of each other's body understanding of vulner, like holding space for that depth of vulnerability, um, understanding the anatomy of their partner and releasing what is in the way of deeper pleasure and connection, um, to share that with your partner. I couldn't imagine anything more intimate and beautiful. Dolly: It's so beautiful and it's a real call to have. You really have to think about moving the ego aside. Okay. Because that, and that's in our work. What do we say? Let's be curious, you know, let's, and that, and my relationship with Jason, we want this life of adventure and curiosity, but to replace ego with curiosity. Because as you touch the body not bringing your intention, sorry, your agenda. Rahi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dolly: The society. It's like, well, sex is natural. Do this, do that. Or maybe the way you touch yourself, you bring that kind of touch to your partner mm-hmm. , and they're not saying anything because they know you like it, so they just stay quiet. Mm. And so then over time, it just builds up this resentment or like, oh God, I hate it when he touches me this way, or I wish you would touch me that way. And then you just, you don't say anything and you build up these levels of resentment mm-hmm. . And then what starts happening is then it starts showing up in the body, and then you start checking out mentally, and then your body starts checking, checking out, and then maybe numbness starts to happen. Rahi: , it's amazing how intuitive the body is in knowing when someone is touching for, from a taking place as opposed to a giving place. The body knows. Dolly: Yeah. The body really knows. And the body stores all of these memories, right? It's like this filing system. The facia just holds memories. It holds, it holds, it holds these things that we then don't know how to process. And then we wonder over time, well, why don't I have the sexual libido mm-hmm. , why don't I have the desire, or am I in that place of comfort with my partner? And we're just, you know, it's, it's not necessarily like, go put on something sexy or go buy a new toy. Of course, all those these things can be very helpful. But really what is your intention? What is it that you want to cultivate where nothing is expected, but everything is possible. Rahi: Yeah. You know, it's just such an important piece to underscore, because there are probably a lot of people out there, I'm thinking men, but women as well, who are touching their partner for their own, you know, taking for their own pleasure and not even realizing it, you know? Mm-hmm. . So to really teach the distinction of touching for the receiver, just that in of itself can start to unravel discarding pattern within the receiver. And yeah, it's, it's amazing how much armor we do walk around without even realizing it, and we think it's something else. Dolly, just talking about this with you is getting me so excited for a workshop. I mean, this is like, this is, this is the magic, you know, that we, the awareness and the practices of bringing this work to, to couples who are ready, you know, who are eager to become aware of their patterns, of their, you know, differences and desires in learning these skills and really supporting each other because for most couples, the love is there, but the how-to is not. So I wanted to ask you, what are you most excited about in offering embodied eros for couples? Dolly: You know, I'm excited because I think it's just the beginning. I think it can be just the first step of hopefully something that really works well, that we can then offer it to more people. Because the, the, the best teacher, number one is your own body. Rahi: Absolutely. Dolly: And if you, and if you are in partnership, learning your body and learning how to play your body like an instrument, and then also respecting and honoring your partner's body and learning how to play that and to just, it's like, it's like learning our first language. What is our first language sensations? Okay. Sensations are the body's first language, how we react. So it's like reorienting to these first languages, but getting guided by you and I, right. Um, in a way that's loving and exciting and, and learning from the other couples that are, that, that will be in the, in the space as well. And so I'm excited for cultivating, helping couples to cultivate a deeper sense of intimacy so that they can prioritize pleasure, and then learn to be their own pleasure muses. So part of our work as coaches and as sexological body workers is like helping people to notice their habits and then to help them reach their goals. Dolly: So often couples who come to want to have this type of experience, they, they're something that they wanna heal. There's some block or they feel like they've kind of mastered and they're like at a plateau and they wanna get to the next level. So there can be various reasons why people come in, but as somebody learns their own body, then if they're in a partnership, then wanting to understand how to really explore and give pleasure to the other person mm-hmm. . And when this happens, this is not just pleasure, okay, this is like healing, touch, pleasure. Yes. This is, this is not just touch like, oh my God, I'm gonna come, or Oh my God, I'm close to orgasm, or I'm climaxing. Mm-hmm. It is all that and deep emotional healing work. And sometimes the work has nothing to do with touching genitals at all. Dolly: When what we're, what we're gonna do in the workshop is teaching the value of what I call one-way touch. And one-way touch is like, you have your massage table and you have the goal of the time is for one person to receive and one person to accept. Last night it was my turn to receive from Jason, and we had up the massage table and he asked, what would you like to experience? And I was like, I really just need some energy touch. My lower back was hurting me. I had a very emotionally trying day yesterday for various reasons. And I kind of got like on belly sideways, and he sat at the top of the massage table and he petted me. Hmm. And he touched the back of my back, and then he found the spot in the middle of my neck. He'd never done this before. And he just nuzzled his head there. Hmm. And literally he gave me like this energetic healing we've discovered. He has kind of like a reiki energy healing that my body responds to, but it was so loving, it was so beautiful. And then after that for a while, I turned to my back and, and, um, I said, you know, if you can just, and I, and I guided him, like, can you just hold my heart? And then he's doing this. And then I started having these electrical, like CREs like kind of moving through my body Rahi: Mm-hmm. . Dolly: And then he came to a place where it just, I felt so satiated. And he says, I feel like this is what I can give, like my body. Like, we'd been there for like 45 minutes and I was like, oh my gosh, I also feel complete. Hmm. So part of this one way touch is like, he's willing to give, I was clear about what I kind of wanted, but he figured out a creative new way to get there. Yeah. And then he also listened to his body when he felt like he couldn't give anymore. Rahi: Right. Dolly: So, and we had no genital contact, and yet I felt full and satiated and loved and, and met. Rahi: Yes. Yeah. Dolly: And, and so yes, there's beautiful times when we do the opposite and it's lots of genital contact, and sometimes we forego the one way touch and we're having so much fun, it becomes a partnered interaction. I, I guess I, I wanna say this statement because every day our body changes Yes. Every week, every month, whatever. And we just have to say, what does my body need? Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like one way touch the way you described, I mean, what you shared of your experience last night perfectly encapsulates the, the gold mine waiting to be discovered when one person is just responsible to receive and the other person is there to hold space and to respond to the receiver's request. And just new things can get discovered. Doesn't have to include the genitalia, but it's almost like, you know, you talked about patterns and, and as couples we can so easily fall into patterns, but when one person has the, the practice of attuning to voicing what it is that their body wants, and the other person is there to simply respond to that, it's like discovering a new country every time. I mean, there's so much to discover. And I love what you guys discovered, like after 15 years of being together, 13 years of marriage, like this new thing, you know, it's so exciting. Dolly: Yeah. It was so exciting. Yeah. And he was so, he felt so proud of himself and I felt so proud. But, and, and, and, and some, and okay, I'm like stuttering because I'm like back in the moment of like, mm of the excitement of it. But I also wanna say sometimes getting to that place of like full acceptance when it feels hard or wonky or wobbly, that's like back to the somatica stuff. Are you being vulnerable and sharing your truth about, you know, I don't want this mm-hmm. , or, or, or, um, gosh, one time I remember when I came back from sexological body work training and we had this amazing interaction and he like went down on me like, so amazing and I felt so good on my body and he was cuz our pattern. Right. Okay. Your turn, then my turn. And I was, and I said to him, I was like, my gosh, I'm feeling so good and so connected. Dolly: I actually don't, can I, can I just rest? Yeah. Can we like hold, hold your turn to like when I'm ready. And he said, he said, okay. He says, is that that class? And I was like, I really wanna honor what I'm feeling. And he's said, no problem. And we both just had the most lovely snooze. Yeah. And I woke up feeling invigorated looking at him, desiring him, and I woke him up in like the most delicious way. And we were both so happy. But how many times do we not listen and we just hijack because we think we're supposed to, it's my turn to give to him. Rahi: Right. Dolly: Right. Or worse, you're in a situation where somebody is giving to you in a beautifully erotic, seductive way and you can't be present to it because you're just thinking, has it been 10 minutes? Or does that mean I needed to give him 10 minutes and then mm-hmm. And then you're not even present. Rahi: Yeah. You're touching on so many great points here. Like one, there, there, there is something to be said about an integration period of being satiated to really let that like seep into the bones, but also to be able to give from a place of wanting to give as opposed to like a trade or an obligation. I think that goes back to like, you know, what we were talking about as far as the intentionality of touching, you know, to really touch and provide for siever and for no other reason. Dolly: Yeah. Rahi: I'm so excited for the same reasons you are, Dolly. I mean, I think the one way touch not only to, you know, for, for clients to really become accustomed and aware of the notes that their own body can play, but to really respond to the, to the musician of their partner and what their partner's body is asking for. But before that, just really clarifying where their desires are aligned, where they're not aligned and it's okay not to be aligned, you know, to accept that and play within that play, you know, sandbox. Yes. And also learning how to touch from a place of, I guess I wanna say s you know, loving service. You know, a place of like really giving and providing. So the way we've designed this course, I really love how we're not only educating them about the erogenous anatomy, teaching them how to touch the erogenous anatomy, how to respond to requests, and how to hold space for that emotion that wants to come up. But making sure that each person has an empowered sense of understanding what their body wants, how to give voice to it and how to receive it. You know, the other thing that excites me is all of the mapping that we're introducing. And it seems like it's such a simple exercise, but the benefits are so profound. I'd love to hear from you, Kelly, what, what you love about, uh, empowering couples to engage and really enjoy the mapping process. Dolly: Yeah. Well it's interesting cuz we could probably ask every sex bond what their top, you know, 10 benefits of mapping are. And we, it might be a fun exercise to do. Yeah. And maybe we'd all have some little different nuances and maybe some will overlap. But these are the ones that I think are my top number one agency, developing agency for your body. Dolly: And that way you feel into what you're noticing and you start to get a command and like, wow, this is my body, this is my, these are my pleasure zones. Um, you, the next one I think would be somatic learning or awakening. So learning to be in the body as you're touching. Ellen Heed said something once that was really beautiful called name it and claim it. So as you're touching a part of the anatomy and then you're hearing the word, you are having your somatic learning, but then it's also awakening your somatic attunement, which is another benefit. So you're developing somatic awareness and attunement when you are in a partnered situation, the real discernment needed for developing attunement is in the pausing, is in the breathing into the feeling and finding the right pace so that you can notice, because remember like how I, I gave the example of Jason the first time he ever touched me, and we just held, so it's just having spaciousness so that you can see what unfolds. Dolly: We're not trying to get at the tissue or we're letting this tissue speak to us. So you're developing this attunement being witnessed and validated. That's where this is a de shaming experience because you're being heard, you're being seen, you're being reflected back that you are okay and that your parts are normal. This builds two-way trust between you and your partner. It, it helps you to establish a common language. And then when you start to develop all those things, that's when it starts to moving into giving the person voice and self-help compliance. Then you can even start moving into healing and remediation. And then what everybody, I think is, is here for is intimacy enhancement, all these other things. They're, you're, you're, you're basically coming for intimacy enhancement and you're getting all of these other things. And the final two things that I think are benefits are this aspect of embodiment and why is embodiment important? Because it always makes the pleasure yummier. It has your, your bo you're able to savor the pleasure because you can mo you can, you know how embodiment can move you into a deeper felt pleasurable sensation, which then my final is it helps you to develop new orgasmic pathways. Rahi: Hmm. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. I love all of those points. Yeah. It's so interesting, isn't it? It's like people want the intimacy and connection and they don't realize like the incredibly deep healing, the de shaming, the witnessing, you know, it's like the most intimate thing. I think two people can really share an experience and witness and support each other in. Yeah, that's a great list and I am so thrilled that we get to hold space for that for couples. So for listeners, if you're interested, you can get all the details. It's May 27th and 28th in Redondo Beach, California. You can go to somatic sexual wholeness.mykajabi.com/eros. And Dolly, how can people find you? Dolly: Um, they can find me, um, on my website of pleasure muse.com or my Instagram is Pleasure Muse at Pleasure Muse. Um, those are the two places that I, that I post, um, most content. Um, I'd also be interested if people for some reason cannot join us on those particular dates, please still be in contact with either Rahi or myself so that we know there is interest so that we can schedule more of these in the future. Rahi: Sounds great. Sounds great. . Yeah. Dolly, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your experiences and your wisdom, uh, with us today. I am so excited to be holding space with you and I just can't wait. It's gonna be so wonderful. Thank you. Dolly: I can't wait. You are a master teacher and I just have all the respect for you what a leader you are in the community. I just, I'm, I'm delighted to see what we can create because really it's an extension so that others can really create what's possible in their partnerships. Rahi: Absolutely. Absolutely. Rahi: How is this episode landing in your body right now? What feelings or sensations are you aware of in your body that may be asking, wanting, or yearning to be explored? What are some ways you might satiate these yearnings in ways you may not have considered before? If you're curious about mapping, Dolly has an online vulva vagina mapping video course that can be found on her site@pleasuremuse.com. And if you're interested in exploring our guidance and facilitation with genital mapping with your partner or lover, you can visit the details of our embodied eros for couples workshop at somatic sexual wholeness.mykajabi.com/eros. Here's to a wonderful and delicious spring for us all. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Erotic Reclamation: Kink, Desire & Power Dynamics](https://rahichun.com/podcast/routhier-kinkead-erotic-reclamation/) **Published:** September 15, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Nicolette Routhier and Kari Kinkead of Erotic Reclamation explore kink, power dynamics, shame, and the somatic path to claiming desire fully. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # The Body Knows What It Wants — Can You Let It? ### *with Nicolette Routhier & Kari Kinkead* ## In This Episode … Nicolette Routhier and Kari Kinkead, co-creators of Erotic Reclamation, join Rahi to explore the somatic, relational, and nervous-system foundations beneath kink, power dynamics, and the full claiming of desire – from the Weather Report and North Star frameworks to the art of transforming a partner’s “no” into a co-created “yes.” Listeners leave with a radically expanded understanding of what erotic freedom actually requires: not intensity, not performance, but the slow, body-literate claiming of what is most alive within us. ![Two women smiling and posing arm-in-arm outdoors on a sunny day, with a red wooden building and trees in the background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-15-at-60832-PM.png "Screenshot 2026-09-15 at 60832 PM | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) ### About Our Guest: Nicolette Routhier and Kari Kinkead are embodiment facilitators, relationship coaches, and co-creators of Erotic Reclamation, a platform at the intersection of kink, power dynamics, and personal transformation. Nicolette came to this work through her own journey from religious repression to erotic sovereignty – a path that moved through shame, sexual trauma, self-pleasure, and the liberating discovery that full expression, held safely, is its own form of healing. Kari brings a background in science and a deeply somatic approach to the work of expanding what the body can feel, name, and claim. Together they co-facilitate Temple of Yes, an in-person retreat for singles and couples, alongside virtual coaching programs including the Empowered Submissive container and group immersions. Their practice is grounded in nervous system attunement, robust repair frameworks, and the radical belief that desire is not something to manage – it is something to reclaim, moment by moment, across an entire lifetime. ### Links: - [Erotic Reclamation](https://www.eroticreclamation.com/) - [Temple of Yes: Oct 15-18, Austin, TX](https://www.eroticreclamation.com/temple-of-yes) ## What You'll Learn About Erotic Reclamation and Desire $ Why the fears that surface when entering a sexual container are almost always the exact fears already living inside your sex life $ How slowing desire all the way down – past the impulse, past the performance, past the noise – reveals what the body is actually asking for $ The Weather Report: a moment-to-moment somatic attunement practice that builds body literacy before any erotic exploration begins. $ What the North Star framework does for couples who’ve gotten lost in a cycle of triggered desire and withdrawal. $ How to transform a partner’s “no” into a co-created, fully owned “yes” without compromise, suppression, or caretaking $ Why aftercare isn’t something you add at the end of intimacy – it’s the through-line that makes deep surrender possible $ Kari’s controversial belief that everyone is kinky – and what that actually means for someone who’s never entered a kink space $ What erotic innocence looks like when it comes home to the body – and why retreat participants name this as the most unexpected gift $ How witnessing someone else claim their desire fully installs a new permission in your own nervous system $ The difference between intensity and aliveness – and why confusing them keeps people locked out of their own eroticism ▼ Show Transcription So this morning, I’m very excited to have the dynamic duo behind Erotic Reclamation. Carrie Kincaid and Nico- Nicolette Ruthier are embodiment facilitators, relationship coaches, and co-creators of Erotic Reclamation, which is a platform exploring the intersection of kink, power dynamics, and personal transformation. Their work centers on helping individuals reconnect to their desires, their authentic desires, expand their capacity for expression, and engage sexuality as a pathway to self-discovery, empowerment, and relational depth. Uh, some of the themes I’m very excited about, um, regarding their kind of core principle orientation, uh, involves erotic expression as liberation and identity, kink as a pathway to power, self-discovery, and aliveness, and desire as something to reclaim and not to \[00:01:00\] regulate. They explore somatic experiences regarding power dynamics, erotic archetypes, full body yes consent, and, um, metabolizing shame. Guys, it’s so great to have you on. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you so much for having us. Yes. Yeah. And you know, it– there’s so much to explore here. It’s like, um, I feel like each kind of subtopic deserves like a platform of its own. But to start off, I would love to ask each of you, um, so our audience can get a sense of, of you guys as well as the work that you, that you hold. You know, as your work centers around erotic reclamation, the experience of desire and sexual expression as pathways to liberation, um, it’s a two-part question to start us off. One, how do each of you define what it truly means to reclaim one’s erotic self? And maybe within that you can \[00:02:00\] share, like what was the pivotal experience for each of you in that journey of your own erotic reclamation, you know, that’s informed how you’re holding space for others today? Y- great way to start us off. Um, so for me, I’ll, I’ll start by talking about my pivotal moment and then I’ll, I’ll, I’ll s- answer the question about what erotic reclamation is. Um, so briefly, I grew up in a religious upbringing, um, very sheltered when it came to sex, but I always had, um, very vivid fantasies from a very young age. It w- they just came from me. They weren’t from movies. They weren’t from, you know, traumas. It was just… I was just a fantasy-filled child. Mm-hmm. And, um, I \[00:03:00\] was at an early age taught through my religious upbringing to associate those fantasies with shame. And, uh, so I did have some sexual trauma in my 20s and, uh, and r- it was like perpetuating shame- Hmm through my, um, sexual experiences. And the reclamation for me happened… It was twofold. One is through self-pleasure and really finding my body and my pleasure for myself. Mm-hmm. And then also, um, I started going to chat rooms and, uh, talking to people and, and I identify as a submissive, so I would talk to doms. Mm. And I felt empowered because, um, I could, you know, click off at any time. They didn’t- Right … see me. I could- Sure … \[00:04:00\] just express myself. Mm-hmm. And I really got to let those fantasies fly in a way that, for me, felt safe. Mm-hmm. So I was finding pleasure in my body for myself, and I was also finding my own expression. Mm-hmm. And to me, that’s the twofold, um, erotic reclamation is being able to find what feels good, what brings you alive, what brings you pleasure in your body, while also, like, unleashing your inner freak and, like, embracing the full expression of your sexual joy and aliveness and- Mm … and, um, decoupling the r- the paradigm of sex and shame. Yeah. Wow, that’s so fascinating. I mean, a couple of things stand out. One, the, the religious upbringing that really repressed it, and \[00:05:00\] yet your fantasy world was really alive and vibrant, right? And how kind of maybe, I, I d- w- the, the anonymity of chat rooms really gave you the freedom To really fully express and explore, you know, what, what your inner freak wanted to do. Yes. Amazing. Amazing. Um, Carrie, how about you? I, I love listening to Nicolette talk. That’s why we’re partners, ’cause I’m like, “Oh yeah, same.” Right. “Same.” Oh, cool. But I’ll, um, share through, uh, my journey, also religious, um, upbringing, and I’d say less, um, overt suppression, just like wasn’t talked about. Hmm. So, um, was given like a book about my period and then sent to the races, and a promise ring. And so then I feel like my life has been, um, sexual education through trial and \[00:06:00\] error is like my favorite thing to say. And unfortunately, a lot of my life was error-based- Mm. Mm-hmm … exploration. And, um, so I feel like I continually live reclamation with my sexuality. Like it to me feels, um, like a continual journey of just what is the next step of reclaiming more wholeness, more sovereignty, more desire, less shame, um, more… It just depends on the moment in my life, more fiery, kinky wildness or more slow, connected, um, deeply met and intimate sexuality. Mm-hmm. Mm. And so the thing I love about our business is, and like the way I relate to erotic reclamation is it’s, it can be a continual path for what does my body need right \[00:07:00\] now in the realms of intimacy, of sex, of freedom, of autonomy, of shared connection, um, of more expression, of titration of expression, but in a way that doesn’t feel like bypassing. Mm-hmm. Could laundry list many different moments, but, um, again, was very heady and in the science realm. I work in a field very, um, science-based, and so my biggest wake-up was realizing that I could feel more than hot and cold or pain or no pain in my body. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause people would be like, “What do you feel?” And I’d be like, “Hot. No pain. A headache.” And so increasing my body’s vocabulary for sensation was probably- Yeah … one of the big starting points, and then kept going from there. Shame, kink- Mm-hmm … energetic sex. \[00:08:00\] Um, so- Mm-hmm … and all of that kind of, I think, feeds into what erotic reclamation is really. Like, is there something being left out right now of my whole person, of my whole sexuality? Is there something I’m not, um, wanting to witness, to celebrate, to express, to share with my partner? Is there, um, even just resting back and not work- working on my sexuality? Mm-hmm. Is that the medicine that’s needed right now? So- Mm-hmm … that’s how, um, I, and I think both of us similarly relate, is just what is, for this time in my life, what is the reclamation? You know, I feel like you’re bringing up really, really important points. One, I really love that you’re underscoring how your erotic reclamation, all of our erotic reclamations are continually evolving. Mm-hmm. Right? Right? \[00:09:00\] I mean, just this conversation this morning I’m sure will inspire and, you know, like expand my erotic reclamation, right? So it’s continually evolving, but also, like moment by moment, whatever that authentic desire is can shift from, you know, like from, as you shared, like soft and intimate to wild and, and, you know, kinky. I mean, it’s really, it’s, it’s really honoring kind of all aspects of our, our sexual identities, right? So I wanted to ask you guys, um, like… And, and, and maybe you can… W- well, the question that I wanted to ask is, what, what do you guys see within your clients accessing through these spaces, right? Like Nicolette, you shared that in the chat rooms, you know, you could really let your inner freak go wild. You know, what do you guys see in the spaces that you hold space for that weren’t really accessible to your clients in like the \[00:10:00\] conventional relational or sexual frameworks that exist in our society? You want me to go? Nicolette and I do a fun thing where it’s like who’s, who’s got it? Right. Of course. Who’s got the thread? Um, one thing I see in our space is, uh, slowing way down, which I know is kind of like in vogue. Slow down. But we actually like almost painstakingly, um, slow down a dynamic, slow down desire, um, because a lot of times there is an impulse, an urge, and then an immediate action or- Right an immediate thought and then suppression. Mm. Um, and so where we really shine is, like, making people stay with \[00:11:00\] different pieces of desire. Like, just feel it. Mm. And like, okay, holding them there. Okay, now get really clear, really crystal clear. And now work on the claim part of it, where there may be some shame. But none of this… So this is three separate steps, and none of it has even gotten to the person they may be having the desire with. And then it continues from there, but that’s where I think we really dilate- Mm … desire and find the nuance in it. Mm. Wow. That sounds really, really juicy and important, and you know, I, I also feel like slowing things down deconstructs what we think we want, you know, and allows us to really feel into, “Well, do I want that? Or is it something I saw in porn or something I \[00:12:00\] think my partner wants from me?” You know, there’s all this, like, layers on top of, like, what we really desire. But that really slowing it down, identifying, really feeling it, that, that, that in and of itself is so… can be so transformational. And, and w- and with, uh, uh, reclaiming. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and all the things that come up with that. Like, all of a sudden you claim it, and then there’s fear that comes in or, or this ecstatic pleasure that you didn’t even know you had access to. So yeah. So we also give space for all of that, um, kind of moment-to-moment aliveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s a couple of other pieces that I, I tease in here. One is that we create a space with full permission to bump up against each other. Mm-hmm. And we have very, um, robust repair \[00:13:00\] processes. Mm. So it’s not like sex has to happen perfectly, and we get along, and everything’s right, but actually It’s okay and, and it’s actually very normal to bump up against each other. Mm-hmm. And so is repair. And to get- Mm … into that pattern where that’s more normalized, um, then makes… You know, then there’s more courage to try things and experiment and, y- you know- Mm-hmm … try cooking a meal a couple times. It’s gonna… You’re gonna over-salt it or under, you know- Yes … over-pepper it. So you, you just p- play with the spices. Like, we want a space where that can happen, and it’s not the end of the world. Yes. You gotta play with the spices for it to get spicy. Yes. Right? Exactly. Yeah. The right flavor- Yes, yes … of spicy. Yes. But you know, I think, I feel like, Nicolette, this is such an important point. It’s really critical, especially in the, uh, \[00:14:00\] containers of, of kink and power play to, to define or have an aftercare repair process. You know, it, it, it, it just allows you to surrender more deeply into the container, right? And I’m curious, what does that look like when you create a container for your clients, whether it’s in a workshop or with couples or with individuals? The, the repair process. I mean, you know, I, I imagine it’s, you know, specific to, to what their intentions are. But if you can just kind of provide the audience with a sense of, oh, okay, there is a defined repair process, so we can, you know, really go for it because we know there’s gonna be aftercare. What does, what does that look like, um, in, in Erotic Reclamation? So I’ll speak to a couple of other pieces that feed into that. Mm. The first is something that we call the weather report, and the weather report is, it’s like the very first thing that we teach. Mm. And it’s your \[00:15:00\] moment to moment identifying what’s hap- what’s the weather. Like- Mm-hmm … what is. Naming- Mm … what is. So we, we, uh, start our clients in even just being able to identify what’s happening in their physical sensations, emotional sensations, um, thoughts- Mm-hmm um, energy, and then be able to communicate that and, and feel comfortable communicating it, going from identifying it to communicating it. Um, and our clients that work with us over time get more, uh, like, like, uh, you know, the vocabulary builds. They get more versed. They get more skilled at it, more skilled at doing it, actually doing it moment to moment, ’cause sometimes initially- Mm-hmm it won’t come till later. Like, they’re, they’re… And this is where nervous system comes in. You know, especially if the nervous system is in freeze, for example, can be difficult to identify \[00:16:00\] sensations. And so being able to even identify what freeze feels like. Mm-hmm. And put words to it. Mm-hmm. And start to, um, be in a relational space with what’s happening in the body, that, that starts the process. Then we have something we call the North Star, which is, um, for every interaction, um, intimate interaction, the– whoever is, is in it comes to a meaning, something that this, um, is in service of Mm-hmm. And whether that’s connection or play or experimentation or discovery or your pleasure or my pleasure or, you know, so some North Star. Mm-hmm. And, um, having those two, the weather report and the North \[00:17:00\] Star as the anchor points, you can then bring this into if there’s a bump up, coming to the weather report, this is how I’m feeling, thinking- Mm … and so forth, and w- where are we off from our, our North Star? Mm-hmm. And then, um, we follow a repair process that, that is, uh, created by Dr. Hazel Grace Yates. Yeah. Hazel Grace. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And we love this repair process, but at, at its baseline, I’m not gonna go into it because, you know, Hazel Grace has the whole structure around it. A whole course around it, yeah. It’s incredible. Um- Mm. But, but it starts with being resourced, and so not even stepping into repair until you are internally resourced, and there are many ways to get resourced. Having access to empathy and then being \[00:18:00\] able to, uh, communicate and hear somebody’s impacts for, you know, however that’s expressed. So again, the weather report brings you to being able to share impacts. Mm-hmm. Um, knowing that it’s all in service of the North Star. So at the end, coming to some kind of, whether it’s, uh, a redo or next time we’ll do this or, um, a- an apology- Mm-hmm amends. So there is some completion that both can come around to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, so yeah, that’s the– those are the baseline aspects of it. That’s great. That’s really, really great. So y- you know, my, my sense in just you sharing that about the container, um, it sounds like there’s a debrief at the end, w- you know, kind of a check-in k- like \[00:19:00\] I mean, there’s two things that stand out for me. One, the weather report i- is actually teaching people how to somatically attune to themselves. Mm-hmm. Right? It’s a somatic attunement exercise, but that’s like a, a, like a, like a constant throughout. You’re training people how to attune somatically to what they’re feeling, what they’re sensing in their bodies. Um, and I love the North Star. Um, w- you know, I, I would love for you to kind of, uh, share with our audiences the other aspects of the container, ’cause it sounds like it’s, it’s, like, what are… Like, it sounds like you’ve really thought through what’s safe, you know, um, how to repair. Um, w- so is there, like, a debrief process? Do c- p- people come to you with an intention and then you create a container and there’s… Like, help us understand, like, what happens with you and your clients? Yeah. This has been a really \[00:20:00\] cool thing that we’ve actually gotten so clear that it’s like, “Oh, these are the steps we walk people through for an intimate moment.” And, um, Nicolette named the weather report starting the north star, what is this in service of? And then from there, you move into desires. Mm. And then we have a whole framework around desires if that’s where people want help. If they’re like, “I don’t know what I want. I need to see a menu,” or- Mm-hmm … they’re like, “I can’t identify in my body what I want,” or they, again, this is kind of the articulating. They can’t say it clearly, or maybe they’re, like, a little nervous to share. Um, one of our favorite things to help couples with is seemingly conflicting desires. Mm. This is like, ugh, geek out on it. Where if one person has, like, um, “This is something I want from my partner,” say, we’re gonna say, like, spanking, ’cause sometimes- Mm-hmm it’s \[00:21:00\] helpful to give a tangible example. And then another partner’s like, “I’m a no to spanking.” A lot of times, that’s where the conversation can end. Mm-hmm. And then someone feels rejection, and then someone feels like they gotta turn off desire. Some- then there could be caretaking or overextending, like, “Well, maybe I could do spanking,” but it doesn’t… That’s where the wheels start to get a little wobbly sometimes. Mm-hmm. And with the north star established or just, like, the why are we doing this? Mm. That can open up a conversation where a no can be discussed because it’s not a no to connecting. Like, I’m a yes. Right. Our, our north star is to, to leave feeling connected and close. Mm-hmm. Great. That can look like a million things. So then it can be like, are, are you open to discussing your yes under spanking, and are you open to discuss- discussing your \[00:22:00\] no? And we always like to say, no is a whole sentence, right? Mm-hmm. There’s a lot around that. We hold that really, really strongly. And- Mm-hmm with curiosity around yeses and nos, you can find shared yeses again. Mm. So this could look like, okay, the person with the yes could explain like, “Oh, what spanking does for me is it lights me up. It makes me feel powerful. I feel like my spine lengthens, and something in my chest broadens, and my hands warm up.” And so that could be what they describe as why they might be really excited about spanking. It kinda goes a layer deeper. Mm. And then if it’s curiosity, they can explore the no. Like, “Oh, my, um, I had a bad experience with this at one point, and I’m a little scared about it,” \[00:23:00\] or, “I’m a– I don’t really like pain- Mm-hmm and I’m a little nervous about being able to take sensation.” Mm-hmm. Um, so now it’s like, okay, the first partner really likes feeling tall, broad, powerful, and the second partner is a little nervous about pain level. Mm. Now what do we do with that information rather than- Mm-hmm … just spanking, yes or no? Mm-hmm. And then we can move into can we give an energetic spank? Mm. Can we give a spank that stops like an inch- Mm-hmm … from the skin? Mm-hmm. And like- Mm-hmm … “Oh, what is, what is there?” And then they can continue to have conversation. And so this is where we get really excited, is helping people who seem to be stuck- Yeah with conflicting desire. ‘Cause it’s like- Yeah … you can continue to \[00:24:00\] get down to the root of, “Okay, okay, what does feeling powerful do for you? Okay, what does- Mm … like, just what does that do for you?” And at some point, you will be able to find a common ground. It will likely look different than- Mm-hmm … both people imagine. Right. But thank goodness, that some of the best sex is the kind that we didn’t even think of on our own. But then now both partners are bought in, and it’s not a compromise, it’s not a suppression of, or like, “I can’t have this, I can’t have that.” Right. Mm-hmm. It’s co-created. Yeah. And then you already hit your North Star- Mm of connection and closeness just in the conversation. Mm-hmm. I can understand why you geek out on this. You know, I mean, I, you know, as you’re describing that… ‘Cause the, the first scenario where, you know, someone wants spanking, the other one is a no, I feel like that scenario is what mostly happens in \[00:25:00\] couples. You know? And then there’s this ping pong of, my trigger triggers you, your trigger triggers me, I’m not good enough, I’d never get what I want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what you’re, you’re actually inviting everything, you know, in the yes, in the no, and teasing it apart, and getting underneath what, what the desire is, you know? And this is where I see how valuable the North Star is. It keeps people on track to what’s really important. You know, as you’re describing that, I was like, wow, if you guys, you guys can create a course just on that, you know? On, like, getting underneath the yeses and nos, ’cause that would resolve so many things for lovers and couples. Yeah. I mean, it’s the basis of our work. Mm-hmm. And then we built out around, around. Mm-hmm. So yeah, love hearing the- Amazing … sound of excitement and the geek-out. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so coming back to the container- Mm-hmm … and what, what your clients expect, \[00:26:00\] there’s the North Star, there’s the weather report, there’s identifying desires, right? And the process of really getting to tease out what is, you know, like, where is the common ground? How can you create, um, you know, something new that’s really exciting for both people? And then, um, tell me about, like, the aftercare, you know, after a container like that. That, that, that must, um, also relieve kind of any anxiety of clients knowing that there’s an aftercare process. Yeah. So aftercare, uh, is something w- we, we introduce, um, but we’re also We see it as something that shows up throughout the entire intimate- Mm … interaction. Mm-hmm. Um, and identifying aftercare before you go into an intimate interaction is important, um, \[00:27:00\] because you have– you know that you can always come back to that. It’s like aftercare is the baseline. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we, we offer a- an aftercare menu and, um, we actually did a recent podcast episode about aftercare that used the love languages as the baseline, um, with different categories. Because really that’s what most people’s– the thing that brings them care and brings them nourishment, uh, is often identified with, with their, their- Mm-hmm love languages. Right. Right. Yeah. And so- Right … so having that to start with, uh, knowing that, um, like if someone really loves physical touch, like- Mm-hmm … snuggling, well, you can start with a snuggle, and then the snuggle can lead into, you know… And you can be snuggling while negotiating a scene. And scenes are, are short \[00:28:00\] periods of, uh, time and short interactions, or they can be longer interactions. But it’s a defined, um, container- Mm-hmm … for an intimate interaction. Mm-hmm. Often scenes are associated specifically with kink, though we, we identify all intimate interactions in scenes in our, in our- Right … containers. So you can- Mm … be in the aftercare, you know, but it, it’s like more like pre-care. We’ve really just brought it down to care, be in the care space. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you can be snuggling and negotiating your scene. Um, and for another person who quality time is their, their jam, just being together negotiating a scene could already start to fill their cup. For someone- Right … who needs words of affirmation, you know, hearing the other person’s desire can already start to fill their cup. Mm. So you’re, you’re getting that going right from the very beginning, and knowing that you can return to it as well. Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. So \[00:29:00\] this leads me to another question, which is, like, understanding your client’s love language, right? Their desires, their love language, their intentions. What, what is the onboarding process that you guys go through with your clients, whether it’s an individual or a couple? Yeah. So we have- Um, yeah … an application process, uh, for most of our programs, uh, and retreats, and an interview. And so then th- in the application, it gives people to already start to talk about desire. Yes. And talk about boundaries, and we haven’t brought in boundaries yet, but, um, to already start that conversation around their yeses and their nos. Mm-hmm And it’s, it’s already moving them in the direction. Like, we’ll ask them what their intentions are, so that gets them in the direction of their North Star, gets them in the direction of the weather report. When we get on a call with them, we’re tapping into the, you know, “How are you \[00:30:00\] feeling right now?” We tap them into the language around weather report, into the language around North Star- Mm-hmm … into the language around their yeses and nos. So, so the onboarding process is actually like a, a ninja, like- Yes … bringing them into our container. Yeah. Yeah. And if they’re game for that, like you can really tell, like if, if they’re, they’re jamming on what it is that we’re bringing in, then we know that they’re gonna be a fit. Um, we create a lot of space for answering their questions, because when you’re addressing sex, a lot comes up, and you can te- uh, you know, like the fears that come up around the container are likely the fears that show up around sex in general. Mm, mm, mm-hmm. So we give a lot of space for that. Mm-hmm. And then we also are getting a lot of information about what’s gonna be in the container- Mm-hmm um, simply by the questions that they’re \[00:31:00\] bringing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. Great. So I wanna ask you about the container itself, right? Um, so, you know, w- I’m curious when… Uh, so I can imagine, uh, couples coming and creating a container. You know, for example, if, if, if, if one wanted to experience their, their dominant side, the other wanted to explore their sub- submissive side. And, uh, between lovers, obviously they have a relationship and they have their own history, and I imagine that within the container, are, are there boundaries that you have as facilitators when you’re, uh, holding a container? So that’s one question. And then if someone is coming individually, do, do you participate with them within a container? And are there bound… What, what are– What’s the boundary, uh, identifying process in that kind of scenario? This question \[00:32:00\] Good … love this question. Um, we have a couple different programs. Uh-huh. So, um, our virtual online ones, it’s pretty easy to figure out the boundaries. We aren’t in the same space with people. So I’m gonna focus mostly on our in-person retreat called Temple of Yes. Temple of Yes. Temple of Yes. And that is an event that singles and couples can both come to. Mm. Mm-hmm. And we, Nicolette and myself, have very clearly and strongly agreed that we do not exchange sexual energy with any of our students. Mm. So she and I are completely out of the sharing, exchanging of sexual energy. Um, we don’t eye gaze, we don’t exchange, um… Well, not like eye gaze, but we don’t, like, run sexual energy, like eye gaze, breathe, um- Right … we don’t have physical, like sexual physical touch. If we have \[00:33:00\] friendships with people, we hug. Mm-hmm. Um, so we have platonic, friendly, but we are really clear that in some of the sexual spaces, there can just be a lot of messiness and unspoken power dynamics. And- Absolutely Our, our heart’s mission is for people to have a space that they can feel more of themselves. Mm-hmm. Not more of Nicolette and I’s ego. Right. Nicolette and I’s preference. Right. Nicolette and I’s idea of what sex is. Mm-hmm. We want it to be… Like, we’ve done a good job, which this is kind of annoying sometimes, but we’ve done a good job if people almost don’t even realize what we’re doing or that we’re there. Right. Right. I get it. And like- I totally get it that is the thing that we wanna create. And so, um, that enables me personally to feel really good showing up into these spaces- Yeah … and that we can keep it \[00:34:00\] very, um, focused on… We, we, our North Star is to be of, like, in service to the room or the people- Mm-hmm … who are there. So- Hmm … um, yeah. I’ll s- Like, that’s speaking to that piece, and then I think you asked a question about couples and singles, but I’ll leave it- Yeah at that for now. Great. Well, I just wanna reflect, um, you know, I really respect the clean, the cleanness of the container, because you are like the room, right? I mean, to be individ- to be, to feel, to be in- uh, invisible for the client so they can really deepen and take ownership of their own kink or desire or life force without projecting it on or crediting the facilitator, you know, is an art, and I really respect that. You know, that sounds amazing. And, and it’s f- it’s so much \[00:35:00\] safer and cleaner for you as the facilitator, but it’s really a gift to your clients. And we still get to be ourselves. Yeah. Like we- Totally … ooze permission. Like we still- Yeah … wear like a little, you know, cute, sexy little thing, or we- Right … talk about our own, um, sex and aliveness, but it’s quite contained, which feels really nice. Yeah, and we make ourselves accessible. So even though we’re, we’re invisible, we’re, you know, we’re running the playlist or, or holding s- like I’ll– I, I, I curate the playlist during especially what we call our play dojos, where people can, um, practice all the different things that we teach them around setting up a scene and, and- Mm-hmm pleasure and desire, and setting up their boundaries, and then going to town. Um- Mm-hmm … and they can go as far as they want, you know? It’s like it’s their, it’s their playground. Mm-hmm. We make our– So I’ll have the playlist going, \[00:36:00\] and if there’s a spanking scene over here and another, you know, play over there, and who knows what’s happening in that room, you know? So it’s like I- Mm-hmm … I have the playlist running with the energy of what’s happening. So we’re very tuned to the– We’re both very energetically tuned people. Mm. So we’re tuned to the energy of the play. If it needs to get more low-key, we’re kind of, everyone’s sort of moving into aftercare, we’ll, we’ll bring the, the mus- So the music is a big part of it. And then there’s also, um, having us there so if, uh, some people are negotiating a scene and they come up against a challenge, they can come to us and talk about it. Or if something happens- Mm … mid-scene, they can come to us. So it’s like we’re accessible to support them in working through those, again, we’re having them slow down so we can work through those little nuances right in the moment. Yeah. \[00:37:00\] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s really– I mean, that’s such a, um, it’s a tremendous asset to have someone experienced and who is attuning to what’s happening in the container right there, you know, to course-correct or to, you know, support when, when, when they’re, they’re going astray. I mean, I, I’ve, I’ve participated in, in containers, like in a workshop kind of setting, you know, that were 25 minutes long. So it was long enough to kind of instill a new somatic imprint in the body, whether that’s as a dom or a sub. Um, but- You know, this, the safety of it really allowed us to go wherever the, the energy wanted to go, you know? And I was like just, you know, pulling his heart out of his body and, and like m- you know, con- like devouring his heart, you know? Like, but, you know, energetic knife and all of that, and it’s so freeing. Mm-hmm. And then that gets instilled in your, in your soma, you know? Like, it’s embodied, \[00:38:00\] and that never leaves. Uh, that memory’s in your body, and it does change something in your behavior or in your kind of self-permission. It’s almost like your body sheds some layer of conditioning, you know? Uh, ’cause we’re all conditioned by so many things, and so it’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. Okay, I ha- I’m, I’m curious, like I, I’m guessing that You know, like people find out about you and they’re like, “Oh my God, I didn’t even know this existed. Amazing.” And they list all of their like desires and fantasies and, you know, when they show up, I wonder if sometimes people’s desires are way beyond what their nervous system can handle, you know, or maybe even what their psyche can handle. You know? Does that show up a lot in containers, and how do you guys navigate when someone’s nervous system, you know, doesn’t have the capacity to meet what they think their desire is? \[00:39:00\] Yeah. So again, we, we slow it down. Slow it down. Um, and our, our framework for desire, w- like when they show up, just, just even stating their desire might already get the nervous system going. Mm. So we begin with feeling and sensing desire as it’s just, just desire itself without even articulating the desire. We start there. Then they can start to articulate it, and we have them do it through journaling, so they don’t even have to say it yet. And that can bring regulation. Mm-hmm. We have a process for working with the fears that came up just by writing it down, and then speaking those fears to another person who isn’t the person involved in the desire. So, so there’s nervous system regulation that’s happening through every step. Yeah. Then claiming the desire, and we, we have a, a \[00:40:00\] really specific practice for working with claiming desire where they’re met with the full yes of another person who’s… And then there’s another person who is, it’s like a three-person container. The other person is supporting them with regulating their nervous system and fully claiming it for themselves. So that all happens before they bring that to another person. And because everybody in our container goes through that, they have started to work with how to regulate their own nervous system. But then also in our negotiation process, we, we work with the attunement to another person’s nervous system, and safety and talking about nervous system is a part of the negot- negotiation Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I’m really impressed. I mean, like the– ’cause I feel like that is what’s missing in a lot of DS \[00:41:00\] spaces, you know, is understanding the role the nervous system plays and, you know, what, what is a reenactment of a, of a past traumatic event, you know, because of the charge, you know, because I can only feel when I’m, you know, feeling this, and what is actually, like, creating a, a new pathway, you know, where the person can, uh, be, be, be within their agency and cre- and kind of eroticize that past experience to have their own freedom and choice. Yeah, I mean, it’s wonderful for the, the person who, who’s receiving or working through it, but they’re also kind of sneakily side by side learning what it’s like to be with someone else’s nervous system while it maybe bubbles up and then settles down, right? So with the claim exercise, getting to witness someone’s \[00:42:00\] liberation, like initially their fear with saying like, “I want to wear high heels.” Mm-hmm. I throw out random examples. Great. Awesome. Like, “I wanna wear high heels.” Yeah. And maybe that’s really, really, like, nerve-wracking for someone to say. Being the person who’s standing in front of someone being a full-bodied yes, like yes, that imprint on your own nervous system, you are supporting someone else’s expression of desire. Mm-hmm. I truly believe the imprint of supporting someone’s fullest desire when it’s, again, not your partner, not someone you are currently involved in and making a… There’s all kinds of wounds, baggage, stories. But doing that with someone that you don’t have that baggage with is an imprint, so that when you do get in front of your partner- Hmm just like you said, there is something installed in your nervous system where you’re like, “Oh, there is deep \[00:43:00\] liberation available behind someone’s full claim of desire.” Yeah, I was- And like that’s a cool sneaky sideways, like, benefit. They don’t even know they’re, like, getting- Yes … that, and it’s so- Yes nourishing. Totally. Totally. I can just see it kind of like, you know, like in, in, uh, theater improv, there’s a yes and game where you’re just yes and-ing, and that is happening somatically, just as you pointed out. You know, Carrie, when, when someone is, is, is, is holding, uh, space for that yes for their… When their nervous system is, like, s- giving the permission of yes, then that, that nervous system knows that that’s possible for itself as well. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That’s really, really exciting and amazing. You know, I’m really curious… Oh, sorry. Were you gonna say something else? Oh, no. Let’s go where you’re curious. We love curiosity. Well, I am, I’m really curious, like, I mean, be- to be able to witness this happening \[00:44:00\] must be so exciting, right? For couples, for individuals in group spaces. Um- I’m really curious about each of your kind of, you know, the evolution of your understanding of erotic IQ. Um, like how, how liberating… Like, I mean, I know it’s your jam and that’s why you’re doing this, but in the evolution of erotic reclamation, um, what, what have been some of the kind of awe-inspiring experiences that you’ve had the privilege to witness, whether it was with couples or individuals? Mm. I’m sure there’s a long list, but I’m wondering- Yeah … if, if certain situations stand out. Yeah. I can… Yeah, it is a long list. It’s like- Mm-hmm … makes my skin, like, tingle and my heart, like, beautifully open. Um- Mm … the… We’ve had… It’s so, it’s, like, so people’s \[00:45:00\] tenderest, so I’m pausing because when I share about the transformations we’ve experienced, I wanna make sure I’m, like, holding the people who’ve actually gone through it. Because we’ve had people who have never had sex before. We’ve had people who’ve had, um, been, like, accused of causing harm and gotten a little bit, like, then really clamped down on their sexuality. We’ve had, um, couples who are just so confronted by what they want that they’re just, like, locked up and trembling. And Who had, you know, lost her husband and, and was reclaiming sexuality for herself. Wow. And on the other side, I mean, just like, “I didn’t even know this was possible. I met new parts of myself.” Mm. “I \[00:46:00\] feel so inspired to go create, get… Like, I feel alive.” And it’s just the stories are all so beautiful, so individualized, and quite tender. Like, it’s the tender- Mm-hmm … it’s the tender spots in people. Um- Mm-hmm … I’ve never self-pleasured and then just laid there in relaxation before. Because we, we give one of our, um, in the Temple of Yes, one of the experiences, self-pleasure, and it’s not goal-oriented, and it’s beautiful. And this is not a, um, a space where we focus specifically on, like, shamanic healing, but that experience alone ends up being so transformative. Mm-hmm. All of people’s patterns around pleasure and if this is okay, and I mean, it’s, it is so beautiful to witness the innocence. Honestly, what we hear the most after our retreat is a \[00:47:00\] reclamation of, like, the innocence of someone’s erotic or sexual desire. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, I can so imagine that happening, and it, I think it’s because eroticism, uh, you know, like, there are images of fetuses in the womb holding their genitals and self-pleasuring. I think it is very, it, I think it’s reclaiming our childhood, you know? Because I think so much of our, uh, natural curiosity and love for other, other kids and other beings, you know, that kind of gets re- conditioned out of us as youngsters. And, um, it is a reclamation of innocence. I think that’s so beautifully said. Mm-hmm. We have, like, a lot of play. Like, it can be playful. I think that’s something that sets us apart, too. Mm-hmm. It can be fun. It kind of is the whole point. Like- Mm-hmm. Right. Right … and that is, like, so easily missed, ’cause some of this \[00:48:00\] stuff can feel so heavy. Yeah. Like, so heavy. And I, like, I get it, because I’ve worked through a lot of really dark, heavy stuff in my own sex. Mm-hmm. But we don’t avoid that while holding very strongly that this gets to be enjoyable for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, I really, um, feel like what you guys have co-created, uh, is kind of a sanctuary for DS, BDSM, and kink work. You know, because I’ve never heard it held in ways where you’re teaching people to self-attune, where you’re attuning to people’s nervous systems, where conflict is being teased out to get underneath, you know, to what is really connecting, you know, partnerships, you know. And you’re really inviting people to reclaim the \[00:49:00\] innocence, you know, of who they are, you know. And giving the permission. You’re like teaching permission giving and instilling that in people’s somas. This is incredible. This is so beautiful. Um, so I– there’s, there are two questions I have that come up. One is like, I mean, it’s kind of a weird question to ask you guys because you guys do it… There’s so many things that I’m hearing that are done differently than a lot of other, uh, you know, DS or BDSM spaces. But I wanted to ask each of you, um, what, what do you think is the biggest misconception about DS work or BDSM work or, or the kink space? I’d say, that it must be intense. Mm. Like, like it’s an expression of intensity- Mm-hmm … or the taboo or the… There’s, like, a making it intense in whatever way. Right. Um, and \[00:50:00\] what we’re finding is it’s actually more of a spectrum. Like, intensity kinda makes it, like, this or this. Mm-hmm. You’re kinky or you’re vanilla, you know? Mm-hmm. But you’re actually ex- in a, a spectrum of expression. Mm-hmm. And, um, can be, can live in the full spectrum. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ‘Cause the full spectrum i- is reflective of that whole range, right? ‘Cause we’re all of that. Mm-hmm. Yes. Love that. It’s like whatever the conception of, your conception of kink is, it’s probably- Mm-hmm … more. Mm-hmm. And I, I kind of hold the controversial belief that everyone is kinky. It’s just- Mm-hmm … what you’re… ‘Cause it’s like what is kink? And that’s a whole conversation that, um- Yeah … I won’t open or go down that pathway. But the way I personally relate to it is \[00:51:00\] what is, what is there that I kind of want, I kinda don’t want, I kinda feel a little, like, ooh- Uh-huh … ooh, ooh. ‘Cause that’s- Right … just a, it’s just, um… There’s so much energy there. And I think energy- So much aliveness. Yes. Energy and aliveness are different than intensity. Mm-hmm. So, like, assless chaps might be involved, but I think for a lot of people, the image of, like, leather gear might keep them from the exploration- Mm-hmm … of, like, I wanna feel fully in my power- Mm-hmm … and I wanna feel their surrender. Mm-hmm. And that’s where I think we’re like, “Okay, you can wear assless chaps while doing that if you want, or you can still wear your Sunday dress.” And- Mm-hmm … that speaks to what Nicolette’s talking about, is, is, um, a wider way to play with this. Yeah. Yeah. A wider way that, that is so permissive and that invites \[00:52:00\] that, that, you know, out of the box. Like, I feel like kink for me is just what’s non-normative. And under that definition, we are all kinky, ’cause I think the norm is not, It’s a conditioning that’s placed upon us, you know? It’s not who we really are. Mm-hmm. So by that definition, we are all kinky, and there’s, you know, there’s wild kinksters in, in, in all of us. Mm-hmm. Um, how can people find you? Mm. So we have an Instagram, Erotic Reclamation. And that is also our website, eroticreclamation.com. And on there you can reach out to us. We have a Substack. Cool. I don’t exactly know how to direct you to that. I am not the tech girl. Mm-hmm. But it is also Erotic Reclamation. You will find it if we’re talking about kinky subjects. Uh, you will find it- And the podcast … and the podcast on every podcast platform. So yeah, it’s- Great … if you search \[00:53:00\] Erotic Reclamation, you’ll, you’ll find us. But eroticreclamation.com, uh, we link to everything. Okay. And then you, it sounds like you work with couples, you work with individuals, and there are group experiences that you also offer. Yeah. Yeah. So we have one-on-one coaching. We have, um, virtual small containers, like if you wanna get like a four-week intro. We’ve got longer. We just wrapped up a three-month empowered submissive program, which was really cool. And then we’ve got some in-person retreats as well. Ooh, exciting. So many options. So there’s a, there’s a way, there’s an entry point for just about anyone, which is great, which is great. All right. So Erotic Reclamation, uh, webs- URL, Instagram, uh, Substack, and podcast. Yeah. Easy. Great. Guys, um, Carrie, Nicolette, thank you guys so much for, you know, really, uh, y- you’ve created something really, really special. Yeah. And, um, yeah, and \[00:54:00\] it’s, I mean, I just, I’m so happy for all the lives and the lovers and the love that’s being transformed, and the pers- permissiveness and for like, you know, all aspects of ourselves to come forward. It’s really, really terrific. Thanks so much for your time today. Thank you. Thank you. Such an energizing conversation. Yes. Yes. ## Go Deeper Into This Work [![Cover art for 'Awaken Your Body'—a guided somatic audio series, with a pink‑red background and hands framing a central flower/logo at top.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Course-Visual.jpg "RYP- Course Visual | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/reclaiming-your-pleasure/) If this conversation is stirring something in you, Rahi’s *Reclaiming Your Pleasure* takes you into the body-based practices that support this kind of reclamation – moving shame, restoring aliveness, and expanding your capacity for pleasure in your own body. Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) ## Explore More On Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening #### This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) Related Episodes on Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening: - [→ Pleasure as medicine and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) - [→ Pelvic pain and scar tissue healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) - [→ Genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) - [→ Genital health and pleasure explained ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) - [→ Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) ## Featured Episodes #### *With Some of the Wisest Somatic Sexologists in the Field* [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving [VIEW ALL PODCAST EPISODES](/podcast) ## About This Podcast & Your Host ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "| Rahi Chun") We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ### Rahi Chun #### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness *Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world.* ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** erotic reclamation, kink --- ### [Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery?](https://rahichun.com/articles/will-i-ever-feel-anything-again-after-pelvic-surgery/) **Published:** September 15, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Numbness after pelvic surgery is usually scar tissue, restricted fascia and a guarding nervous system, not dead nerves. Sensation often returns. **Content:** ##### BLOG ARTICLE: ## Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery? ### with Diane and Sophie (shared with permission) Numbness after pelvic surgery is usually scar tissue, restricted fascia and a guarding nervous system, not dead nerves. Sensation often returns. ![Close-up of hands forming a heart shape over a bare midsection above green underwear.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Screenshot-2026-08-25-at-23128-PM.png "Screenshot 2026-08-25 at 23128 PM | Rahi Chun") # Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery? Usually, yes. Numbness after pelvic surgery is most often scar tissue, fascial restriction, and a nervous system that learned to leave, not permanent nerve death. Those are all changeable. Sensation frequently returns when the biochemical, biomechanical, emotional, and scar tissue domains are worked with together, rather than one at a time. In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I’ve sat with people who were told by a surgeon that the nerves were gone and there was nothing more to do. Some of them can feel again now. Not all, and not always in the way they expected. But far more than the prognosis allowed for. ## Why does my pelvis feel numb after surgery? Three things are usually happening at once, and they compound each other. Scar tissue is first. An incision heals by laying down collagen that’s denser than what it replaces, and it doesn’t stay put. It tethers and pulls on the surrounding fascia, so an adhesion in one place can flatten sensation somewhere else entirely. Blood flow is second. Sensation needs circulation, and tissue that’s been cut or held rigid gets less of it. The third is the nervous system, and it’s the one nobody names. A pelvis that was the site of pain, exposure, or a violation of consent learns to be somewhere else. That’s protective intelligence, not weakness. But once the threat is over, the leaving can stay. Nerve fibers can genuinely be severed in surgery. It’s just far less often the whole story than people are told. If this is where you’re living, [why you can’t feel anything during sex](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) and [why a cervix goes numb](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) go further into the mechanism. ## Is numbness after pelvic surgery permanent nerve damage? Sometimes. Often not. A prognosis and a fact aren’t the same thing. Diane, who I worked with, was told in 2008 that she had a very mild bladder prolapse, with no pain and no real symptoms. In her account, surgical mesh was implanted, the pain never stopped, the mesh eroded, and over about three years a surgeon who specialized in removal took it out in pieces across roughly eight surgeries. “I didn’t have a vagina,” she says of that time. “I had a box that had no nerves, no fat, nothing. Just a box.” In 2012 she asked: “Will I ever have feeling again?” The answer was, “Probably not. We’ve taken out all the nerves.” She accepted that for five years. Then in 2017: “I had a massage and for the first time I had some feeling. And that day, I said, I am going to get it back.” One flicker overturned the verdict. Today Diane says, “It really feels like it used to. And I had no hope of that. Literally, no hope.” That’s her experience, not a promise about anyone else’s tissue. But it’s why I don’t treat “the nerves are gone” as the end of the conversation. ## What are the four domains of healing after pelvic surgery? Numbness is rarely one problem. It’s four, braided together, and working one while ignoring the rest is why people plateau. **Biochemical.** What the tissue has to work with: blood supply, hydration, hormones, inflammation, tissue volume. Diane tried many things here, and most did little. She also pursued stem cell injections, which are experimental and not FDA approved. “That was really helpful,” she says. “It added blood supply and fat and tissue.” That’s her account of her own body, not a recommendation. **Biomechanical.** How the pelvic floor muscles align or need to re-align after surgery…. releasing muscular tensions and guarding that can become chronic… Ensuring the tissue moves and glides as they should… . Castor oil packs, manual scar tissue work, pelvic floor release, daily circulation. Diane committed to self pleasure with a vibrator deliberately, as circulation and pelvic floor muscle relaxation work rather than performance. “I think that was critical,” she says. **Emotional.** The domain that decides how much sensation you’re allowed to receive. You can soften every adhesion in a pelvis and still feel nothing, if the body has concluded that feeling is dangerous. That conclusion gets updated slowly, by repeated experience of safety and choice. “My experience with doctors is very clinical,” Diane says. “No one’s ever asked me about the emotional part of it. It’s like an auto repair kind of thing. Like you’re fixing a car.” But something was living in the tissue alongside the scar. “Colors weren’t as bright,” she says of those years. “I had lost a part of myself.” **Scar tissue.** The hands-on layer. Our sessions began with vaginal steaming to bring blood flow and soften the pelvic floor, then a castor oil dipped organic tampon internally for twenty to thirty minutes, then slow palpation to find the edges of the adhesions and invite new sensation. The palpation isn’t the point, though. Holding space for what the tissue carries is, which is why consent and pace aren’t the wrapper around this work. They’re the active ingredient. ## What if my numbness didn’t come from surgery? The same four domains apply, because the body doesn’t file its injuries by cause. Sophia’s numbness came from early wounding rather than an operating room. As a girl she was subjected to genital cutting during a visit abroad, with no warning and no consent. What it set up, she says, was contradiction: “It feels good. It shouldn’t feel good. Sex and guilt. Not knowing if I could trust my body.” Her pelvis stayed largely offline, with scar tissue and pain at the threshold of arousal. Our work didn’t start with her scar tissue. It started with letting her body discharge stored survival energy, and with touch she directed herself, moment by moment. One session her body asked not to be touched at all for forty five minutes, and we honored that. Then a moment she still cries about: “I remember asking that my left shoulder blade wanted support. And you put your hand behind my left shoulder blade, and I just started sobbing. It was literally the first visceral experience of a man having my back.” After that session, sensation in her pelvis began coming back. What followed she calls remapping: “You helped me remap where all of that pleasure that I used to get just from my breasts or my nipples, having my vagina come online and my clitoris.” Self-pleasure used to leave her sad and crying. “After the sessions, this disappeared. Now it’s just pleasure.” ## How long does it take for sensation to come back? Longer than you want, and usually in flickers rather than floods. Diane’s first return of feeling came five years after she was told it wouldn’t. Sophia’s came over five sessions in ten days, after years of other work. Neither is a timeline to measure yourself against. What I watch for isn’t a full return anyway. It’s the first flicker: a patch of warmth, a spot that suddenly registers pressure. That’s the tissue reporting back in. ## A practice you can try For a body that’s been through physical shock, surgical or otherwise. Ten minutes. 1. Find a quiet space where you won’t be disturbed. 2. Place your hands gently over the part of you that went through it. Lower belly, pelvis, chest. Over clothes is fine. 3. Breathe slowly. Let your hands rest with warmth, not pressure. 4. Ask, silently: what do you need me to know? 5. Listen with your felt sense rather than your mind. Notice sensation, images, emotion, impulse. Numbness is an answer too. If something rises, let it move. 6. Then speak to that part of you the way you’d speak to a child you love. “I’m here. I see you. You are not broken.” If it’s too much, stop. Stopping is also the practice. ## Common questions **1. Is it normal to feel nothing at all during sex after pelvic surgery?** It’s common, and rarely talked about, which makes people think they’re the only one. It usually involves scar tissue, reduced blood flow, and a nervous system still guarding the area. Common doesn’t mean permanent. **2. My surgeon said the nerves are gone. Is that the final word?** A surgeon is describing what they could see in the operating field, which is real information but not a complete map of your sensation. Diane was told the nerves were gone, and her feeling later returned. Treat it as one input, not a verdict. **3. Is it too late if my surgery was years ago?** Old scar tissue takes longer to change, but it’s still living tissue with a blood supply, and it still responds to heat, oil, movement, and patient manual work. Diane began five years after she was told to stop hoping. **4. Is it normal to feel angry at my partner during sex when I can’t feel anything?** Yes, and Diane names it plainly: “I’d get angry because he was enjoying it and I wasn’t.” That anger isn’t a character flaw. It’s grief with nowhere to go, and it softens when the loss gets spoken instead of managed silently. **5. Can I work on this on my own, or do I need a practitioner?** Much of the biomechanical and biochemical work is self directed: castor oil, heat, circulation, gentle self touch, breath. What’s hardest alone is the part that asks to be witnessed, because a nervous system that learned to leave under someone else’s hands often needs safe hands to learn otherwise. ## Closing If you’re numb right now, I want to say the thing nobody said to Diane for five years. Your body isn’t broken. It did something intelligent under conditions it couldn’t control, and it’s been waiting for conditions safe enough to undo it. Sensation doesn’t always return completely, and I won’t tell you it will. But the four domains together give it a chance no single one does. If you want a place to begin, the [Genital Awakening Meditation](https://rahichun.com/awaken) is free, and comes with a 12-point genital armor checklist so you can see what your own body is carrying. And if you’re ready to work with numbness, scar tissue, and the nervous system that’s been guarding them, [The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring for Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasrure](https://rahichun.com/courses/) is where that work goes deeper. *Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, and the creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. He hosts the podcast [Your Body Remembers Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/), where this conversation first took place. With thanks to Diane and Sophia for telling their stories in their own words.* # ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Portrait.png "| Rahi Chun") ###### ABOUT THE AUTHOR ### Rahi Chun Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. [→ More about Rahi](https://rahichun.com/about) ###### MORE ABOUT [→ Links to relevant things from the Article](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) ###### MORE ON THE PODCAST ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### Your Body Remembers Pleasure [→ Explore Episodes ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) - [SOMATIC SEXUAL HEALING](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) - [GENITAL DE-ARMORING](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) - [INTIMACY & RELATIONSHIPS](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) - [MEN’S SEXUALITY](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) - [EROTIC EMBODIMENT](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) ###### BROWSE LATEST ARTICLES ## [Why Do I Lose My Erection With a Partner?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-do-i-lose-my-erection-with-a-partner/) An erection is a parasympathetic response, so it needs safety, not effort. Why you lose an erection with a partner but not alone, and what changes it. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-do-i-lose-my-erection-with-a-partner/) ## [Why Does Sex Hurt After Having a Baby?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-does-sex-hurt-after-having-a-baby/) Does sex hurt after having a baby? Scar tissue and a guarding pelvic floor are what meet pressure now. It’s tissue, not desire, and tissue can change. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-does-sex-hurt-after-having-a-baby/) ## [Why Did I Freeze Instead of Saying No?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-did-i-freeze-instead-of-saying-no/) Why did I freeze instead of saying no? Freeze is a survival response, not consent and not failure. Here’s what your nervous system was doing. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-did-i-freeze-instead-of-saying-no/) ## [Why Is My Period Blood Brown?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-period-blood-brown/) Brown period blood usually means old blood that didn’t clear, a sign of stagnation. Here’s what it indicates and what actually helps circulation. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-period-blood-brown/) ## [Can You Heal Sexual Abuse You Don’t Remember?](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) You don’t need the memory to heal. The body holds what happened, and somatic work can release it whether or not the mind supplies the story. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) ## [Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change? A numb cervix is almost never broken. It's usually protecting itself… from rough penetration, medical trauma, or old stored grief - by muting sensation the way any part of the body goes quiet after being overwhelmed. In my... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) ## [Why Can’t I Feel Anything During Sex?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) Why Can't I Feel Anything During Sex? Numbness during sex is almost never irreversible damage. It's self-protection - genital tissue that learned to go quiet during something overwhelming… and never received the signal that it's safe to feel again. In my work as a... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) ## [When Your Body Finally Learns That Pleasure Is Medicine](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/) Definition: Pleasure as medicine is the practice of using safe, embodied experiences of sensation, arousal, and connection to support nervous system regulation, positive neuroplasticity, and trauma integration — so healing becomes lived, not just understood. The... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/) ###### GET YOUR FREE DOWNLOAD: **GENITAL BREATHING MEDITATION** ![Hero banner announcing 'Genital Breathing Meditation' by Rahi Chun; a free guided somatic meditation.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/39-1.jpg "39 | Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Send it to me ](#) ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) ## Go Deeper Into This Work [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/image.jpeg "| Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** after pelvic surgery, numbness after pelvic surgery, pelvic scar tissue and sensation, will sensation return after surgery --- ### [New Article (Blog Post) Template](https://rahichun.com/template/new-article-blog-post-template/) **Published:** September 9, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** What happens when an engineer experiences an orgasmic birth so profound it transforms her entire life's path—and how the intersection of grief and pleasure can unlock our deepest healing. **Content:** ##### BLOG ARTICLE: # Why Is My Period Blood Brown? ### with Keli Garza In this article we explore the intersection of birth, loss, and pelvic healing with Katie Spataro. You’ll learn how the body processes these experiences and how healing restores connection and sensation. ![Close-up of hands forming a heart shape over a bare midsection above green underwear.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Screenshot-2026-08-25-at-23128-PM.png "Screenshot 2026-08-25 at 23128 PM | Rahi Chun") # *Why Is My Period Blood Brown?* Brown, black or clotty menstrual blood usually reflects old blood that didn’t fully clear from a previous cycle, a sign of stagnation rather than healthy flow. Many people are told it’s simply “normal for them.” Often it responds to warmth, circulation, and pelvic care. As a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I see this pattern shift regularly once circulation improves. If your period starts or ends brown or darker, or is brown throughout, you’ve likely asked a doctor and been told not to worry about it. That answer isn’t wrong exactly, but it’s incomplete. Brown blood is information, and there’s usually something to be done about it. Keli Garza’s period had been missing for three months. Not from anything physical, but from trauma. Her body’s response to an overwhelming experience was to shut down one of its most fundamental rhythms. One night she went to sleep with a question: how do I get my period to come back? She woke with an answer that seemed to come from nowhere. Vaginal steaming. She went to a Korean spa and tried it. A couple hours after her first session, her period started. But the blood wasn’t brown, as it had been her entire adult life. It was red. Fresh. When she’d asked her OB-GYN years earlier whether brown blood was normal, they’d said: “Is it always brown? Then that’s normal for you. Just contact us if something’s different.” Looking at that red blood, Keli knew with certainty that this was better. That moment began her work, and she went on to found Steamy Chick and over the years has become the leading authority on vaginal steaming. ## What does brown period blood actually mean? It generally means oxidized blood, blood that sat before it left. Fresh blood is red. Blood that lingers turns brown. Some brown at the very beginning or very end of a cycle is common. Brown throughout, or consistently, tends to indicate that the uterus isn’t fully clearing each month, and residue from previous cycles is being carried forward. The underlying issue is usually stagnation: insufficient circulation, chronic pelvic tension, or a uterus that isn’t getting the blood flow it needs to complete its work. Keli’s framing is blunt and worth sitting with: “Brown is not normal. Pain is not okay. And you don’t need to hand your body over to the male doctors every time you have a health issue.” ## *Why did my doctor say it’s normal?* Often because “normal for you” is the honest answer within a specific framework, not because the question was fully investigated. There’s a structural reason worth understanding. As Dr. Lorena Mendoza explained to Keli, “A doctor can only talk about what they learned in medical school. Anything outside of that, they actually have to advise against because of the legal framework they’re in.” It’s not ignorance. It’s liability. Which means practices outside standard training land in a strange limbo where absence of instruction functions as a warning. When vaginal steaming entered mainstream U.S. awareness around 2015, the medical response was immediate and emphatic: don’t do it, it can’t affect hormones, there’s no evidence. Much of that advice came from doctors who acknowledged they didn’t know what the practice involved. Keli remembers the dissonance. “I didn’t get it. I’d been doing this. It had been healthy for me. And now doctors were saying don’t do it, doctors who didn’t even know what it was.” ## *Why would warmth make any difference?* Because circulation is the foundation of healing everywhere else in the body, and the pelvis is not an exception. Warmth dilates blood vessels, which means more oxygen and nutrients delivered and better cellular function. Heat relaxes muscles, so a chronically tense pelvic floor can soften, easing pain from holding patterns and improving elimination and sexual function. The vagus nerve innervates the cervix, so soothing warmth in the area helps activate the parasympathetic nervous system, shifting the body from survival toward repair. And gentle heat supports the movement of stagnant fluid: old menstrual blood, post-birth lochia, cellular waste. As Keli puts it: “If we understand anything about the body, it’s that warmth and circulation is good and stagnation is bad. Every single injury, no matter where it is, you have to get circulation, you have to get warmth, in order for that part of the body to heal.” We accept this everywhere else. Heat packs, warm baths, saunas, hot compresses. The resistance appears only when the pelvis is involved. ## *Is this safe?* Sensibly done, warmth applied externally to the vulva and perineum is a low-risk practice, and it’s worth being clear about what that means and doesn’t. Steam should be warm, never hot, and never applied to broken skin, during pregnancy, with an IUD without guidance, or during active menstruation. The temperature that’s appropriate is closer to a warm bath than a sauna. Anyone with an active infection, recent surgery, or an unexplained symptom should get that looked at first, because warmth doesn’t substitute for diagnosis. I’d add my own note as a practitioner: brown blood, pelvic pain, and cycle irregularity all deserve real medical evaluation, by an integrative or female-health-focussed practitioner to rule out conditions that need treatment. Circulation practices work alongside that, not instead of it. ## *What else supports pelvic circulation?* Warmth is one lever among several, and the others cost nothing. Movement matters enormously, particularly anything that mobilizes the hips and pelvis rather than keeping them fixed. Chronic sitting is one of the more underrated contributors to pelvic stagnation. Releasing chronic pelvic-floor tension matters too, because a gripped pelvic floor restricts flow the same way a clenched fist does. Breath that reaches the belly and pelvis rather than staying high in the chest changes pressure and circulation throughout the abdomen. And warmth in general, whether baths, heat, or steam, does the same work. In my own practice, when clients release long-held pelvic tension, cycle changes are among the most common things they report without my ever asking about it. ### Common questions 1\. Is brown period blood normal? Some brown at the start or end of a cycle is common. Consistently brown flow usually indicates oxidized blood that didn’t clear from previous cycles, which points to stagnation rather than a health emergency. It’s worth investigating rather than dismissing. 2\. Why is my period blood brown at the beginning and end? That’s the most common pattern and often unremarkable. Flow is slower at the edges of a cycle, so blood spends more time before leaving and oxidizes. Brown throughout the cycle is the version worth examining. 3\. Does vaginal steaming actually work? The mechanism, warmth increasing circulation and relaxing the pelvic floor, is ordinary physiology we accept everywhere else in the body. Rigorous clinical research is limited, so honest framing matters: so many people around the world and within my sessions report meaningful life-altering changes, and the underlying principle is sound, but this isn’t a heavily studied intervention. 4\. Is vaginal steaming safe? Done gently and warm rather than hot, it’s low-risk for most people. Avoid it during pregnancy, during active menstruation, with an IUD without guidance, with an active infection, or after recent surgery. Persistent symptoms warrant medical evaluation regardless. 5\. Can pelvic tension affect my period? Yes. Chronic pelvic-floor tension restricts blood flow and lymphatic movement, which affects how completely the uterus clears each cycle. This is one reason people often notice cycle changes after somatic pelvic work. Your period is information. Brown blood, cramping, irregularity, these aren’t things to simply accept because someone said they’re normal for you. They’re your body communicating about circulation, tension, and flow. And in most cases there’s something you can actually do. If something here landed, the Genital Awakening Meditation is a gentle place to begin, about twenty minutes with nothing required of you but attention. It comes with a checklist of the twelve places armoring most often lives:[ rahichun.com/gift](https://rahichun.com/awaken). And if you want to go deeper into pelvic health, sensation, and pleasure, Reclaiming Your Pleasure is where I teach it:[ rahichun.com/courses](https://rahichun.com/courses). With reverence, Rahi – Keli Garza is the founder of Steamy Chick and the Steamy Chick Institute, and has conducted extensive survey research on vaginal steaming. Learn more at [steamychick.com](http://steamychick.com/). Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring. More at [rahichun.com](https://rahichun.com/) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Portrait.png "| Rahi Chun") ###### ABOUT THE AUTHOR ### Rahi Chun Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. [→ More about Rahi](https://rahichun.com/about) ###### MORE ABOUT [→ Links to relevant things from the Article](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) ###### MORE ON THE PODCAST ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### Your Body Remembers Pleasure [→ Explore Episodes ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) - [SOMATIC SEXUAL HEALING](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) - [GENITAL DE-ARMORING](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) - [INTIMACY & RELATIONSHIPS](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) - [MEN’S SEXUALITY](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) - [EROTIC EMBODIMENT](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) ###### BROWSE LATEST ARTICLES ## [Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery?](https://rahichun.com/articles/will-i-ever-feel-anything-again-after-pelvic-surgery/) Numbness after pelvic surgery is usually scar tissue, restricted fascia and a guarding nervous system, not dead nerves. Sensation often returns. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/will-i-ever-feel-anything-again-after-pelvic-surgery/) ## [Why Do I Lose My Erection With a Partner?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-do-i-lose-my-erection-with-a-partner/) An erection is a parasympathetic response, so it needs safety, not effort. Why you lose an erection with a partner but not alone, and what changes it. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-do-i-lose-my-erection-with-a-partner/) ## [Why Does Sex Hurt After Having a Baby?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-does-sex-hurt-after-having-a-baby/) Does sex hurt after having a baby? Scar tissue and a guarding pelvic floor are what meet pressure now. It’s tissue, not desire, and tissue can change. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-does-sex-hurt-after-having-a-baby/) ## [Why Did I Freeze Instead of Saying No?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-did-i-freeze-instead-of-saying-no/) Why did I freeze instead of saying no? Freeze is a survival response, not consent and not failure. Here’s what your nervous system was doing. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-did-i-freeze-instead-of-saying-no/) ## [Why Is My Period Blood Brown?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-period-blood-brown/) Brown period blood usually means old blood that didn’t clear, a sign of stagnation. Here’s what it indicates and what actually helps circulation. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-period-blood-brown/) ## [Can You Heal Sexual Abuse You Don’t Remember?](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) You don’t need the memory to heal. The body holds what happened, and somatic work can release it whether or not the mind supplies the story. [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) ## [Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change? A numb cervix is almost never broken. It's usually protecting itself… from rough penetration, medical trauma, or old stored grief - by muting sensation the way any part of the body goes quiet after being overwhelmed. In my... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) ## [Why Can’t I Feel Anything During Sex?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) Why Can't I Feel Anything During Sex? Numbness during sex is almost never irreversible damage. It's self-protection - genital tissue that learned to go quiet during something overwhelming… and never received the signal that it's safe to feel again. In my work as a... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) ## [When Your Body Finally Learns That Pleasure Is Medicine](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/) Definition: Pleasure as medicine is the practice of using safe, embodied experiences of sensation, arousal, and connection to support nervous system regulation, positive neuroplasticity, and trauma integration — so healing becomes lived, not just understood. The... [Read More](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/) ###### GET YOUR FREE DOWNLOAD: **GENITAL BREATHING MEDITATION** ![Hero banner announcing 'Genital Breathing Meditation' by Rahi Chun; a free guided somatic meditation.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/39-1.jpg "39 | Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Send it to me ](#) ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) ## Go Deeper Into This Work [![Cover art for 'Awaken Your Body'—a guided somatic audio series, with a pink‑red background and hands framing a central flower/logo at top.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Awaken-Your-Body-Thumb-Visual.jpg "Awaken Your Body - Thumb Visual | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/awaken-your-body/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/awaken-your-body/) [![Cover art for 'Awaken Your Body'—a guided somatic audio series, with a pink‑red background and hands framing a central flower/logo at top.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Course-Visual.jpg "RYP- Course Visual | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/reclaiming-your-pleasure/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) [![Cover art for 'Awaken Your Body'—a guided somatic audio series, with a pink‑red background and hands framing a central flower/logo at top.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/TOBT-KeyVisual-w-text-NEW.jpg "RYP- Course Visual | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/turnedonbytouch/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/turnedonbytouch/) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/image.jpeg "| Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) [![Cover art for 'Awaken Your Body'—a guided somatic audio series, with a pink‑red background and hands framing a central flower/logo at top.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Divine-Union-Course-Header-1.jpg "Divine Union Course Header | Rahi Chun")](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. [Find out more](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) **Categories:** Template **Tags:** template --- ### [Why Does Sex Hurt After Having a Baby?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-does-sex-hurt-after-having-a-baby/) **Published:** September 8, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** Does sex hurt after having a baby? Scar tissue and a guarding pelvic floor are what meet pressure now. It's tissue, not desire, and tissue can change. **Content:** # Why Does Sex Hurt After Having a Baby? by [Rahi](https://rahichun.com/author/wibke/ "Posts by Rahi") | Sep 8, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ![Close-up of a midsection showing a horizontal surgical scar across the lower abdomen, with hands resting above it and wearing black underwear.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-07-at-52540-PM-1080x675.png) # Why Does Sex Hurt After Having a Baby? After birth, the tissue itself has changed. Scar tissue from tearing, an episiotomy or a cesarean, fascial restriction around it, and a pelvic floor that learned to guard are what meet pressure now. It’s tissue, not desire, not your relationship, and not permanent. Standard postpartum care rarely examines any of it. In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I’ve sat with many women who were cleared at their six-week check and still couldn’t be touched six months later. Almost all of them had been told, by someone they trusted, that the problem was probably “in their head.” ## Why does it still hurt when I was told everything healed? First of all, new or worsening pain, bleeding, fever, foul-smelling discharge or any other sign of infection needs to be seen by your doctor or midwife before anything else. This article is about the pain that’s still there after that visit says you’re fine. “Healed” in a postpartum check usually means closed. It doesn’t mean supple, well perfused, or able to glide and stretch under pressure. Those are different questions, and almost nobody is asking them – because almost nobody was trained to. Dr. Ellen Heed, a pioneer in scar tissue remediation whose doctoral research is on women’s sexual pain after childbirth, names the gap bluntly. Clinicians, she says, are “unschooled about arousal, so they can’t possibly know, since they’re not trained to understand what healthy pelvic sexual function actually is, what scar tissue could do to inhibit that function.” She points out that there’s extensive research on abdominal adhesions, which can cause fatal bowel obstructions, and almost none on pelvic floor adhesions and sexual function. She describes a client three months postpartum whose vulva was still bruised and pulled sideways by the tension her muscles held around a second-degree tear. Every professional the woman saw told her she was healed. Her body was reporting something else, accurately, the whole time. ## What is scar tissue actually doing after a birth injury? Most of us were taught that a scar is a finished thing. Ellen’s clinical position is the opposite: “Scar tissue is dynamic. It doesn’t just sit there once you’re healed. The scar proliferates and continues to proliferate throughout the life of the body if inflammation is strong under the skin.” That matters because of what a scar does to everything around it. In her words, “You can’t be healthy if your scars are unhealthy. If your scars are unhealthy, that means they are continuing to proliferate and continuing to shut down the plumbing of all the tissue around the scar, meaning blood delivery gets interrupted and lymphatic drainage gets interrupted.” Every cell needs groceries in, which is blood delivery, and trash out, which is lymphatic drainage. Scar tissue can compromise both. And the vulva isn’t simple skin. It holds erectile tissue beds as extensive as the ones in a penis, entirely dependent on blood flow to fill, lubricate and respond. Restrict the plumbing and you don’t get a sore spot. You get a system that can’t come online. None of the women in Ellen’s doctoral research had suspected scar tissue was involved in their pain. They’d been told it was psychological, relational or hormonal – “Relax more… Use more lubricant…” ## Can sex hurt after birth even if I didn’t tear or have surgery? Yes, and this surprises people. Scar tissue can form without a wound. Chronic muscular tension creates fascial restriction, fascial restriction creates adhesion, and adhesion creates pain. A pelvic floor that braced through the last weeks of pregnancy, through birth, then through months of lifting, feeding and sleeping badly has every reason to stay short. Guarding is also intelligent. A body that met more sensation than it could metabolize meets the next approach already defended, faster than thought. That’s the same mechanism underneath [numbness and lost sensation](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/), which is why pain and numbness so often share a pelvis. Tissue that braces stops feeling. Some women notice it most at the cervix, which has [its own reasons for going quiet](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/). ## Why does the pain seem to come from somewhere I wasn’t injured? Because the pelvic floor refers. Pain shows up at a distance from the tissue producing it, which is one reason women get cleared by specialist after specialist. Ellen gives an example that stayed with me… A client came to her with painful penetration, no history of abuse, no surgical scars, no obvious cause anywhere. What she did have was a hospitalization for constipation. Her anal sphincter had been chronically clenched for years, and the congestion that created referred pain forward into the vagina. “The only reason it hurt when I pulled my finger out was because of that gripping,” Ellen says. “She was gripping her whole pelvic floor tight as a result of this psychogenic habit around elimination.” Nothing was wrong where it hurt. Something was very much happening an inch away. ## What actually changes postpartum scar tissue? Ellen works with four contributors at once, because in her experience scar tissue answers to all four and rarely to just one. **Biomechanics.** How you move, sit, lift and sleep. The tension patterns of daily life, which after a baby are considerable. **Biochemistry.** Inflammation, food sensitivities, environmental load, hormonal shifts. This is what decides whether a scar keeps proliferating or settles. **Emotions.** What the tissue was holding at the moment it was injured. Ellen has repeatedly found scar tissue softening under her hands as a woman lets herself remember what she’d been telling everyone, including herself, wasn’t that bad. **Meaning.** The story you carry about what happened. Tissue contracts around “my body failed” in a way it doesn’t around “my body did something enormous and is still carrying it.” The hands-on side is unglamorous. Organic castor oil is her staple, chosen because it increases lymphatic drainage and blood delivery and softens adhesions in connective tissue. An old pharmacologist she consulted told her simply, “Mucosal membranes love castor oil.” Then slow manual work across the fibers of a scar rather than along it. “Scar tissue can be remediated,” she says. “The notion of holistic remediation, not cutting out the scar, which just produces more scar tissue, this was a new idea.” Underneath the technique, patience. “It takes a very neutral presence for the body’s story to unfold,” she says. “I’m holding the tissue without judgment, without trying to fix anything. People get so busy wanting to fix something, they never actually hear the problem.” I won’t tell you how long any of this takes. Bodies don’t agree on that. What I can say is that this tissue is workable, which is a different and better sentence than “you’ll get used to it.” ## A practice you can try This is a listening practice, not a treatment. Skip it if you’re in the early weeks, if a scar isn’t fully closed, or if your provider hasn’t cleared you. Nothing here goes inside. 1. **Lie down** somewhere private, knees bent, and let the floor take your weight for a few breaths. 2. **Place both hands over your pubic bone,** heels of the hands resting on the front surface of the bone, palms draping softly. 3. **Curl your fingers underneath** so they meet the bottom surface of the bone. Both surfaces at once. There’s something completing about holding your own pelvic bowl from two sides. 4. **Take ten slow breaths** down into that space. 5. **Notice without correcting.** Ache counts. Numbness counts. Nothing at all counts. You’re taking inventory, not fixing. 6. **Ask, silently:** is there anything I need to hear from my pelvis right now? Then wait longer than feels natural. If a scar is fully healed and you want to add tissue work, Ellen’s simplest tool is a small amount of organic castor oil worked gently across the line of an external scar rather than along it, every two or three days rather than daily, after testing a small patch first. Anything internal is worth doing with a trained practitioner. ## Common questions **1. How long does sex hurt after having a baby?** There isn’t a standard timeline, and I’d be careful with anyone who offers you one. Some tissue settles within months. Some has been carrying restriction for years by the time anyone touches it. What predicts change is whether the tissue actually gets addressed, not how long it’s been. **2. Is painful sex after a cesarean normal, even though nothing was cut at the reproductive organs?** It’s common. A cesarean scar sits in layers of abdominal fascia that connect into the pelvis, and as Ellen describes it, adhesions restrict the tissue around them rather than staying politely in one place. Pain with penetration after abdominal surgery is a recognizable pattern, not a mystery. **3. Will more lubricant fix it?** Sometimes it helps, and it’s reasonable to try. But lubricant addresses friction at the surface, and scar tissue, fascial restriction and a guarding pelvic floor are underneath that. If lubricant hasn’t solved it, that isn’t a failure of effort. It’s information about where the problem actually lives. **4. Does painful sex after birth mean I’ve lost my desire for my partner?** Not by itself. A body that anticipates pain will down-regulate arousal, because that’s a sensible thing for a body to do. Desire often looks absent when it’s being suppressed by an accurate expectation of hurting. Change what the tissue does and desire usually has something to say. **5. My baby is five years old. Is it too late to do anything about the scar tissue?** No. Ellen’s whole position is that scar tissue stays dynamic for the life of the body, which is the bad news and also the good news. Tissue that can still change for the worse under inflammation can still change in the other direction with circulation, movement and skilled hands. ## Closing If you’ve been told everything looks fine and penetration still hurts, both can be true. The exam wasn’t wrong. It just wasn’t looking at scar tissue, fascia and muscle tone, and after a birth that’s usually where the pain is living. You didn’t imagine this, and you didn’t cause it by failing to relax. Your body has been telling the truth all along, and it deserves to be [treated as an ally rather than a problem](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/). If you want a place to begin, the [Genital Awakening Meditation](https://rahichun.com/awaken) is free, and comes with a 12-point genital armor checklist so you can see what your own body is carrying. And if you want to rebuild capacity for arousal, intimacy and pleasure in a body that’s been through birth, [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/courses/) is where that work goes deeper. *Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness, and host of the podcast “Your Body Remembers Pleasure.” Dr. Ellen Heed is a pioneer in scar tissue remediation whose doctoral research on women’s sexual pain after childbirth is available at EllenHeed.com.* ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** postpardum pain, Scar tissue remediation, sex after birth, vaginal tearing after birth --- ### [Why Do I Lose My Erection With a Partner?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-do-i-lose-my-erection-with-a-partner/) **Published:** September 11, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** An erection is a parasympathetic response, so it needs safety, not effort. Why you lose an erection with a partner but not alone, and what changes it. **Content:** # Why Do I Lose My Erection With a Partner? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Sep 11, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/mens-sexuality-sexual-health-articles/) ![Person sitting on a beach at sunset, facing the ocean with distant hills in the background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-07-at-54101-PM-1080x675.png) # Why Do I Lose My Erection With a Partner? Most likely, nothing is broken. An erection is a parasympathetic response, so it needs safety and calm, not effort. Alone, your body has decades of practice feeling safe. With a partner, it may be watching for judgment. The arousal never left. The conditions changed… In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I’ve sat with many men who assumed this was a plumbing problem and were quietly terrified. It almost never is. On my podcast I spoke with Ron Stewart and Pono Stewart, veteran sexological bodyworkers with thousands of sessions between them, and what they described matches what I see: the body is running an old pattern. faithfully. ## Why does it work alone but not with a partner? Because your body learned arousal under one set of conditions, and you’re asking it to perform under a completely different set. Alone, you know what’s coming. The touch is yours, the pace is yours, nobody’s watching. With a partner there’s another nervous system in the room, an unspoken clock, and the question every man is quietly asking himself: “am I doing this right?” That question alone is enough. Ron and Pono see this constantly, in younger clients especially. As Pono puts it, men who grew up with the internet have “mostly had erotic encounters alone with a computer screen. When they get in a room with a real partner, there’s shyness and anxiety. Sometimes they have trouble getting an erection with another person in the room.” The body was conditioned to arouse in the presence of one specific cue. A living human being isn’t that cue – yet. ## What does it mean that an erection is a parasympathetic response? It means an erection is something your body allows, not something you produce. The parasympathetic branch of your nervous system is the rest-and-digest state. Blood flow to erectile tissue happens there. The sympathetic branch, the fight-or-flight state, does the opposite. As Pono says it plainly: “An erection is a parasympathetic response, so you need to be relaxed and calm. If you’re stressed, angry, in fight-or-flight, you will likely not get an erection. A lot of guys are stuck in that state.” So here’s the cruel loop… You notice you’re softening… you panic – Panic is sympathetic. The softening deepens… then you try harder… and effort is the wrong branch of the nervous system entirely… You can’t force your way into a parasympathetic state. You can only stop doing the things that keep you out of it. ## How did my arousal get wired this way? In adolescence, mostly. Fast, quiet, and alone. Pono is candid about his own history. He shared a bedroom with his brother for fifteen years, beds eight feet apart. “I’m not making noise. I’m not moving, I don’t want to squeak the bed. So we’ve taught ourselves: if the goal is orgasm, we can do that in two or three minutes. I can still do that. Because I trained my body that way for decades.” That’s the whole thing. Most men spent their formative erotic years training for speed, silence and secrecy. No breath, no sound, no movement, one narrow band of touch, repeated for years. Then at forty you get into bed with someone you love and ask that same body to be slow, expressive and relaxed for an hour. It has no idea how. It was never taught. Ron adds a layer that shows up again and again in his sessions: “People could be experiencing erectile difficulties because they’re wanting to have sex, but their religion told them not to have sex. So there’s this internal fight in the body.” Shame and desire pulling opposite ways is a sympathetic event too. ## Is my body broken, or is it protecting me? Your erection, or the absence of it, is information: your nervous system reporting on safety, stress, history, and whether it trusts this moment. I’ve written before about [what the body keeps when the mind doesn’t remember it](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/). The same principle governs erectile tissue. Protection isn’t malfunction. Ron describes how small the original moment can be. “As a child being delivered an insult or reprimand from an adult figure or peers in the playground, that can shut you down for life. Forty years later we forgot about that moment, that seed that created the clamp.” Nothing is broken. Something is guarded. ## What actually changes it? Going back to the foundation, rather than working on the erection itself. “I find with so many clients, the foundational work is where the cracks are in their belief system or understanding around sexuality,” Ron says. “When you go back to that base level, what does it feel like to feel your boundaries in your body? To feel safe? To feel unsafe? And then grow out from there to explore eroticism, you get a more functional foundation.” Pono teaches four pillars most erotic arts share: breath, touch, sound and movement. Almost no one learned arousal with any of them. Adding them back is slow and unglamorous, and it works, because each one moves you toward the parasympathetic state rather than away from it. Breath, because most men hold theirs. Sound, because silence was a survival adaptation. Movement, because arousal wants to circulate rather than concentrate in one place. Touch, because most men have one groove and never explored the others. If you’ve noticed a broader numbness, [not feeling much during sex at all](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) often has the same root. ## A practice you can try Condensed from Pono’s self-pleasuring teaching. Give it 30 to 45 minutes of private, unhurried time. Lubricant helps. You’re not practicing for orgasm. You’re practicing staying. **1. Set the frame.** Hand on your heart, hand on your lower belly, ten slow breaths. The intention isn’t to get somewhere. It’s to stay with sensation. **2. Bring in the four pillars.** Breathe fully instead of holding your breath. Let sound come on the exhale, quietly at first. Move your pelvis, rock, let the whole body be involved rather than just your hand. And touch your whole body, not only your genitals: chest, belly, thighs, perineum, neck. Vary light, firm and slow, and notice what your body actually answers to. **3. Track arousal on a scale.** Zero is no arousal, ten is ejaculation, nine is the point of no return, seven and eight are the edging zone. **4. Stay in seven to eight.** When you approach nine, back off. Slow the touch, breathe, move sensation away from the genitals by stroking your chest or thighs. When you drop to six, build again. **5. Notice what argues.** “This is taking too long.” “I should just finish.” That’s the old conditioning talking. Breathe with it, don’t act on it. **6. Finish however you choose,** then rest ten minutes with your hands on your heart and belly. Ending at high arousal without ejaculating is the more advanced option, and either is fine. Even fifteen or twenty minutes a day, Pono finds, begins to shift the pattern. You’re teaching your nervous system that high arousal is a place it can live, not a place it has to escape. ## Common questions **1. Is it normal to get hard alone but not with a partner?** Yes, and it’s extremely common. Solo, your body knows the pace, the touch and the level of exposure, so it stays parasympathetic. With a partner, self-monitoring pulls you into a sympathetic state and blood flow follows. The difference points to conditions, not capacity. **2. Does this mean I’m not attracted to my partner?** Not usually. Desire and erection run on different systems, and it’s entirely possible to want someone deeply while your nervous system is too activated to allow the physical response. Men reach for the attraction explanation because it’s the only one they’ve been given. Anxiety is far more likely. **3. Should I take medication for this?** That’s a conversation for your doctor, and ruling out cardiovascular, hormonal and medication-related causes is worth doing. What Ron and Pono observe is that medication addresses circulation without touching the wiring underneath, so the pattern often stays. The two aren’t in conflict. One just doesn’t do the other’s work. **4. Is porn the reason this is happening?** It’s one part of a bigger picture. As Pono describes it, when nearly all your erotic learning happened alone with a screen, the body gets conditioned to that cue, and a real partner isn’t it – yet. The wider issue is the same one men had before the internet: arousal wired for speed, silence and secrecy. **5. How long does this take to change?** Nobody can honestly give you a timeline, and be wary of anyone who does. What Ron and Pono find is that when men practice regularly, rather than only in moments that already feel high-pressure, the nervous system begins learning a new pattern. It moves at the pace it moves. ## Closing If you’ve been carrying this alone, the silence is part of what keeps it in place. Almost every man who comes to this work believes he’s the only one. He never is. Your body isn’t refusing you. It’s protecting you with the information it had when it made the rule, and it’s allowed to learn something newer now. If you want a place to begin, the [Genital Awakening Meditation](https://rahichun.com/awaken) is free, and comes with a 12-point genital armor checklist so you can see what your own body is carrying. And if you want to rebuild how arousal is wired rather than manage the symptom, [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/courses/) is where that work goes deeper. *Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness, and host of the podcast [Your Body Remembers Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/). With thanks to Ron Stewart and Pono Stewart, sexological bodyworkers on Vancouver Island, whose clinical observations shape this article.* ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health **Tags:** erectile dysfunction, men's sexual health, men's sexuality --- ### [Why Did I Freeze Instead of Saying No?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-did-i-freeze-instead-of-saying-no/) **Published:** September 4, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Why did I freeze instead of saying no? Freeze is a survival response, not consent and not failure. Here's what your nervous system was doing. **Content:** # Why Did I Freeze Instead of Saying No? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Sep 4, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-04-at-102823-PM-1080x675.png) # Why Did I Freeze Instead of Saying No? Because freeze isn’t a choice. When your nervous system reads a threat it can’t fight or flee, it shuts down the exact functions you’d need to say “no” : speech, movement, decision. That’s physiology, not consent, and not failure. You didn’t let it happen. Your body ran the survival response available to it. In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I’ve sat with many people carrying a question that sounds like an accusation: why did I freeze? Almost always they’ve spent years blaming themselves for something their body decided in a fraction of a second, below thought, before they had any say in it. ## What actually happens in the body during a freeze response? Fight, flight, and freeze aren’t a menu you choose from. They’re a sequence your brainstem moves through, faster than thought. When fighting would be dangerous and fleeing isn’t possible, whether because the person is bigger, or has power over you, or because you knew them and your system couldn’t reconcile threat with familiarity, it drops into its oldest response. Muscles go slack or rigid. Time distorts. The voice goes offline. Sensation dims, sometimes to nothing. Kimberly Ann Johnson, author of The Fourth Trimesterand Call of the Wild, describes this as her own default. “I am one of those people,” she told me. “They talk about fight, flight, or freeze. My nervous system tends to go into freeze.” She calls it lockdown: losing the ability to speak, losing the ability to articulate. Freeze isn’t a personality flaw. It’s the most primitive protection mammals have, and it works. It’s part of why you’re here. ## Why does freeze look like consent from the outside? This is the cruelest part, and it’s why so many people blame themselves. From the outside, freeze can look like going along with it. Stillness reads as agreement. Silence reads as permission. No struggle reads as no objection. Inside, it’s the opposite. Inside is a shutdown so complete that a person often can’t move their own hand. The question that matters isn’t whether someone said “no.” It’s whether their nervous system was *capable* of saying “no” in that moment. If you’ve replayed the scene a thousand times looking for the moment you could have spoken, you may be looking for something that wasn’t neurologically available to you. ## Why did I get nicer to the person instead of pulling away? There’s a fourth response that gets judged even harder than freeze: fawn. Fawning is moving toward the threat instead of away from it. Being nicer. More polite. More accommodating. Staying, texting back, going up the stairs, seeing them again afterward… Kimberly names it as the shadow side of the social nervous system, the same system that keeps us connected when we feel safe. “And that’s the one that’s usually really judged hard,” she said. “It looks like, ‘Wait a minute, you went up to the hotel room?’ But now we know that to be a survival response. If I am the person who has less power or less physical strength, being closer to the threat is less of a threat than having a looming threat out there that might hurt me anytime.” Read that again if you need to. Getting closer was your system managing a danger it couldn’t escape. ## Why can’t I feel anything in my hands or my body now? Freeze doesn’t always end when the event does. Numbness can outlast it by years, and it often shows up somewhere people don’t expect: the hands. Kimberly discovered this teaching touch. She’d ask participants to touch her arm for their own pleasure, meaning what feels good to your hand, not what you imagine feels good to her. People couldn’t do it. They’d glue their attention to her face, trying to gauge her response instead of receiving anything through their own skin. One man was completely stuck, so she handed him a river stone. He couldn’t feel that either. “He knew it was a stone,” she told me, “but he couldn’t be attentive to the sensation. He couldn’t take any enjoyment out of the texture.” It wasn’t that he couldn’t feel her arm. He couldn’t feel anything. “That’s the neurological prerequisite to being able to touch a person for your own pleasure,” she explained. “Being able to touch anything at all for your own pleasure.” The dimming that got you through can stay on long after, and it isn’t only in the pelvis. Hands trained as instruments of doing, stop working as portals of receiving. The same protection can show up as arousal that builds and then drops out just before it crests. Kimberly calls that a limited capacity to hold charge, and she describes expanding it in increments, by finding your edge and breathing right there, rather than in one heroic push. ## Is any part of this my fault? No. Responsibility for harm sits with the person who caused it. Full stop. Kimberly teaches something adjacent to this that can land wrong if it’s rushed…. She describes predator and prey not as two kinds of people but as a spectrum all of us live on, and she observes that a system deeply wired into prey mode tends to meet escalating predator energy around it. “That doesn’t mean people deserve it,” she was quick to clarify. “It’s not law of attraction. It’s just how it actually works.” That’s about what can change going forward, not about what you owed the past. “We need predator energy,” she said. “We’ve been conditioned to be nice, to be polite, and we’re expected to have collapsed or panic responses.” Healthy aggression isn’t violence. It’s the capacity to take up space, to say “no” from a body with access to “no.” ## A practice you can try This is Kimberly’s hand practice, the one the river stone taught her. It asks nothing of you sexually, and involves no one else. 1. Sit down and lean back, hands resting in your lap on a pillow. Don’t sit upright and engaged, that signals to your brain that you’re working. 2. Gather a few objects within reach. A stone, a piece of fabric, a smooth piece of wood. 3. Pick one up and feel it. Not to identify it. To enjoy it. 4. Slow down. Then slower than that. Let your nerve cells talk to your brain cells. 5. Notice texture, temperature, weight, and any pleasure that arises in your palm when you’re not trying to accomplish anything or give anything to anyone. 6. Stop when you want to stop. Numbness isn’t failure here, it’s information. “Once that clicks,” Kimberly said, “which takes anywhere from a few minutes to a few weeks, then I can feel you. And now I can really feel you. I can feel the texture. I can feel the shape. I can feel the warmth.” If you’re working with trauma, going slowly, with a skilled practitioner alongside you, is kinder than going alone. ## Common questions **1. Does freezing mean I consented?** No. Consent requires the capacity to choose, and freeze is the state in which that capacity goes offline. Stillness isn’t agreement, and silence isn’t permission. Your body was protecting you in the only way available to it. 2\. Why do I feel more ashamed of freezing than of what happened? Because shame attaches to the part you believe you controlled. Many people can accept that someone else acted badly, yet can’t forgive themselves for not stopping it. Understanding freeze as physiology rather than character is often where that shame starts to loosen. 3\. Why did I stay friendly with the person afterward, or go back? That’s usually a fawn response, the survival strategy of staying close to a threat you can’t escape or resolve. As Kimberly Anne Johnson describes it, being near the danger can feel safer to the nervous system than having it loom somewhere unpredictable. It gets judged harshly, often hardest by the person it happened to. 4\. Can the freeze response happen with a partner I love and trust? Yes, and it happens often. A body that learned freeze can run it again in a moment that’s objectively safe, triggered by a position, a pace, a smell, a phrase. That isn’t a verdict on your partner or your relationship. It’s an old protection firing on old information. 5\. My body went numb years ago and it’s still numb. Can that change? Numbness is a state, not a permanent structure, and states can shift when the body is given safety, time, and slow sensory contact. Sensation tends to return gradually rather than all at once. Working with a trauma-informed somatic practitioner usually makes that process safer and less lonely. ## Closing If you froze, your body did its job. It read the situation faster than you could, chose what kept you alive, and has carried the aftermath ever since – without much thanks from you. You can put down the case you’ve been building against yourself. There was never any evidence in it. Place one hand on your belly and one on your heart, if that feels okay, and thank the freeze that kept you safe when fighting or fleeing wasn’t possible. Thank the fawn that got you through something you couldn’t escape. They saved your life, and they can learn, slowly, that the danger has passed. If you want a place to begin, the[ Genital Awakening Meditation](https://rahichun.com/awaken) is free, and comes with a 12-point genital armor checklist so you can see what your own body is carrying. And if you’re ready to move from surviving what happened toward rebuilding your own capacity for sensation, arousal, and pleasure,[ Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/courses/) is where that work goes deeper. Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, and the creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. This piece draws on his conversation with Kimberly Ann Johnson, author of The Fourth Trimester and Call of the Wild, on the podcast[ Your Body Remembers Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/). Related reading:[ Why can’t I feel anything during sex?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) and[ Can you heal sexual abuse you don’t remember?](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** fawn response, nervous system fawn, nervous system freeze, sexual abuse, Sexual Healing, why we fawn --- ### [Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-cervix-numb/) **Published:** August 25, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Content:** # Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Aug 25, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Genital De-armoring](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/genital-de-armoring-articles/) ![Close-up of hands forming a heart shape over a bare midsection above green underwear.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Screenshot-2026-08-25-at-23128-PM.png) ## Why Is My Cervix Numb, and Can That Change? A numb cervix is almost never broken. It’s usually protecting itself… from rough penetration, medical trauma, or old stored grief – by muting sensation the way any part of the body goes quiet after being overwhelmed. In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring, I’ve seen cervical sensation return once the tissue feels safe, listened to, and loved. If your cervix feels like nothing, or feels like pain, or like something to avoid entirely, you’re not alone and your body isn’t failing you. The cervix has more nerve endings than almost any other part of the reproductive anatomy, three sets of paired nerves – and yet for most people it registers as silence. That silence has a reason. And it can change. Olivia Naomi Bryant started her work because she needed to heal. “I felt like I was housing a brick inside my pelvis. It was heavy, blocked, and painful. I had no libido and very limited access to orgasm.” She’d been a sex educator. She’d trained in sex coaching, taken neo-tantric workshops, used vibrators, followed all the instructions. She’d almost given up, deciding she just wasn’t wired for internal orgasms. Then, during a session in Bali, a practitioner asked: “Can you feel your cervix?” She could not. It was absolutely numb. ### Why would the cervix go numb in the first place? Here’s the reframe that changes cervix-owners’ perception of their body’s possibilities: your cervix isn’t numb because it’s broken. It’s numb because it’s been protecting itself – wisely. From medical trauma. From rough penetration. From being banged against without consciousness. From living in a body that’s had to survive rather than thrive. The cervix holds memory. It responds to safety. It knows the difference between touch that respects and touch that violates, and when it hasn’t been met with respect, it does what wise tissue does. It goes quiet. Olivia calls the cervix “the canary in the coal mine. It’s signaling what’s going on with the rest of my pelvic anatomy. There’s this very powerful place in my body that’s completely numb. It made sense that I couldn’t feel a lot.” Scientifically, the cervix should be capable of profound pleasure. Researchers Barry Komisaruk and Beverly Whipple documented its three sets of paired nerves in their book The Science of Orgasm. So when a cervix feels nothing, the question isn’t “what’s wrong with me,” it’s “what has this part of me been protecting itself from?” ### Is cervical numbness permanent? For most people, no. Numbness is protective rather than structural, which means the pathway back to sensation exists. It isn’t fast, and it can’t be forced, but it’s real. Olivia’s own return took time. In her first year of cervical de-armoring, she had maybe four orgasms the entire year. “It was really hard. I thought, I’ll never have an orgasm again.” But on the other side, she discovered an entire universe of internal sensation she hadn’t known existed. The tissue that had gone silent came back, not through force or better technique, but through patience, presence, and a completely different relationship with her own body. This is the pattern I see again and again: numb tissue isn’t dead tissue. It’s waiting tissue. ### What does healing a numb cervix actually involve? It involves listening, not fixing. The work is closer to a love affair with yourself than a medical procedure, and it moves in a rough sequence. First, building connection with the cervix before even touching it, learning it exists beyond its medical and reproductive context. Then de-armoring, gently releasing the held tension and stored grief in the vulva, vaginal canal, and cervix, letting the tissue speak and letting old emotion move. Then self-partnership, learning to hold yourself through what surfaces, so you stop abandoning yourself in the process. The cervix relaxes and opens when it finally feels what it’s been asking for all along: love, presence, attention, safety. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, the cervix even shares an acupuncture channel with the heart. When you bring love to the tissue, it begins to remember it’s safe. ### Why did my cervix change after a medical procedure? Because the cervix isn’t separate from who you are. It’s intimately connected to your nervous system, your hormones, your heart, and your life force. When it’s cut, numbed, or traumatized, you can lose more than sensation. Procedures like LEEP, used to remove abnormal cervical tissue, involve cutting away part of the cervix, and some people find their libido, pleasure, and even their zest for life shift afterward. Olivia notes that these changes are real and worth taking seriously. She’s careful to say she isn’t a medical practitioner and that every person must make their own informed choice, but she encourages people to know that cervical changes often develop slowly, and there’s frequently time to explore natural and supportive approaches before rushing into invasive ones. She also observed something striking: many people who develop cervical issues, herself included, had experienced significant emotional trauma beforehand. “It seemed to be a reflection of something going on emotionally that was manifesting in the uterus and presenting at the cervix. The healing is releasing the stress, releasing the grief.” ### A gentle first practice with your cervix You don’t need to reach your cervix physically to begin. The first contact is relational, not mechanical. Create private, unhurried time. Settle your nervous system first. Warmth, breath, and a sense of safety with a clear intention matter more than anything you do with your hands. Begin by simply acknowledging your cervix exists, and that it may be carrying things it was never thanked for carrying. If and when you choose to make physical contact – go slowly,… with curiosity rather than a goal. You’re not trying to produce a sensation or an orgasm. You’re introducing yourself. Notice what’s there, including numbness, including emotions, including nothing. Numbness is not failure. It’s information, and it’s the honest starting place. As you continue, explore various states of partial and full body and genital arousal as you make contact with your cervix – in the same, gentle and reverent way. Learn to listen and attune to what she is wanting, being at service to her needs, desires, and guidance. When you’re ready to complete, rest one hand over your lower belly and one on your heart. Breathe. You just did something most people never do. You listened to your cervix. As Olivia teaches, “get into the exploration and forget the goal. The treasure lies in who you become as you devote yourself to self-loving action.” ### Common questions 1\) Is cervical numbness permanent? Usually not. The numbness is typically protective, not structural damage, so the capacity for sensation remains intact beneath it. With safety, patience, and gentle de-armoring, sensation can return, though it happens on the body’s timeline, not a forced one. 2\) Are cervical orgasms real? Yes, though they exist on a wide spectrum and aren’t the goal of this work. The cervix has three sets of paired nerves and, for many people, is capable of deep, full-body, even transcendent pleasure once numbness and armor have been addressed. Medical dismissal of cervical orgasm hasn’t kept the firsthand accounts from accumulating. 3\) Can penetration damage the cervix? Repeated rough or unconscious contact can contribute to armoring, numbness, or pain, as the tissue braces to protect itself. This isn’t about fragility. It’s about the cervix responding to how it’s treated. Slower, more conscious contact allows it to soften rather than guard. 4\) Why do I feel numb there but fine elsewhere? Because armoring is often localized to where the body most needed protection. The cervix can hold specific medical or sexual history while other tissue stays responsive. That localized numbness is a signal about that specific place, not a verdict on your whole body. 5\) Do I need a practitioner, or can I start alone? You can begin alone, gently, with the relational, no-goal approach above. Deeper layers, especially where medical or sexual trauma is held, are often best met with a trained practitioner who understands the cervix and the body’s pace. Most of us have walked around with a portal in our bodies we were never taught to access. We were conditioned to fear it, medicalize it, or reduce it to its reproductive function, and to accept numbness as normal. But your cervix isn’t numb because it’s broken. It’s numb because it’s been protecting itself. And when you finally show up with curiosity instead of expectation, patience instead of force, love instead of judgment, it begins to remember what it was designed for. If something here landed, the Genital Awakening Meditation is a gentle place to begin, about fifteen minutes with nothing required of you but attention. It comes with a checklist of the twelve places armoring most often lives: [rahichun.com/gift](https://rahichun.com/gift). And if you want frameworks for releasing numbness and pain in all genital tissue, including the cervix, The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring is where I teach this work fully: [rahichun.com/courses](https://rahichun.com/courses). With reverence, Rahi Olivia Naomi Bryant is the founder of Self Cervix and creator of the Cervical Awakening Method. Learn more at[ selfcervix.com](http://selfcervix.com/). Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring. He helps people reclaim pleasure, resolve pain, and return home to their bodies. More at[ RahiChun.com](https://rahichun.com/). **Categories:** Articles, Genital De-armoring **Tags:** Cervical Awakening, cervical de-armoring, Cervical pleasure, genital de-armoring, Sexual Healing --- ### [Why Can't I Feel Anything During Sex?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-cant-i-feel-anything-during-sex/) **Published:** August 18, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Content:** # Why Can’t I Feel Anything During Sex? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Aug 18, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Genital De-armoring](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/genital-de-armoring-articles/) ![healing touch, somatic sexual healing & genital de-armoring](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Blog1touchimage-1080x675.jpg) ## Why Can’t I Feel Anything During Sex? Numbness during sex is almost never irreversible damage. It’s self-protection – genital tissue that learned to go quiet during something overwhelming… and never received the signal that it’s safe to feel again. In my work as a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring, I’ve watched this reverse for people again and again. Sensation can return. And for most, it does. If you’ve been sexually active for years and find yourself feeling little or nothing in your genitals – or if touch registers as pain, or pleasure fades into boredom within minutes – you’re not broken, and you’re not alone. What you’re living with has a name: genital armoring. And it’s the body’s intelligence at work, not its failure. A woman came to Susanne Roursgaard – creator of The Gaia Method, a psychotherapist, trauma specialist, and former midwife of 23 years – after 17 years of marriage. Sexually active with her partner throughout. She loved him. What she enjoyed was the heart connection. But in her genitals, she felt nothing. Not a single sensation. After one session of genital de-armoring, she called Susanne with a question that held as much innocence as heartbreak: “Did you know it feels good to have a penis inside of you?” … She was 40 years old, discovering what her body had protected her from feeling for decades. ### Why would my body make itself numb? The numbness isn’t the problem. Pain isn’t the enemy. The disconnect isn’t a malfunction… They’re the wise and necessary solution your body created when it had no other options. When something is too overwhelming – too emotionally or physically painful, too violating, too much to bear – your body offers a mercy: I’ll make you numb so you don’t have to suffer through this. The tissues may still be sensing. The nerve pathways are intact. But the signal to your conscious awareness gets disconnected. You’re there, but you’re not there. A brilliant adaptation when there’s no other way out. This is the person who can be touched, stimulated, even penetrated – and feel almost nothing. Or who describes their genitals as “someone else’s body part.” It’s not irreversible damage. It’s self-protection that was never told it could stand down… ### Where does genital armoring actually come from? The majority of genital armoring doesn’t stem from adult sexual experiences at all. Susanne’s work reveals that approximately 80% of the armor held in the pelvis and genitals traces back to before age seven. Not sexual trauma – developmental trauma. The times you weren’t seen, met, respected, or understood. The moments you had to fragment yourself to stay safe, to belong, to be loved. As Susanne explains: “Most of the trauma we find in the body is developmental trauma – all the times throughout your childhood when you were not met, seen, treated, respected, or handled the way you actually needed.” The two-year-old who reached toward their genitals during a diaper change and got a sharp “No!” learned: hands don’t belong there. The four-year-old who felt “too much” or “not sweet enough” – that belief took up residence in the pelvic bowl, and it’s still there, decades later, creating tension they can’t explain. By age seven, Norwegian research shows, most children already carry chronic tension in the genital and pelvic regions. Not from anything overtly sexual, but from the accumulated weight of small moments when their body’s truth wasn’t welcome. ### What are the different ways armor shows up? Genital armor doesn’t show up the same way for everyone. Your body is far too wise for a one-size-fits-all response…. it customizes protection based on what you needed to survive. There are three common faces: Numbness – the compassionate disappearing act. The signal to conscious awareness gets disconnected. You can be touched and feel nothing, or feel that the area belongs to someone else. Hypersensitivity – the alarm that won’t turn off. When your body learned that what happened before must never happen again, it creates a hypervigilant early-warning system. The slightest touch registers as danger. This is the person whose pelvic exams are excruciating, who can’t tolerate penetration even when they deeply want intimacy. Boredom – the shutdown you don’t see coming. This one surprises people. You’re being touched, it feels good at first, and then within five or ten or fifteen minutes you just want it to be over. As Susanne puts it: “After 10 minutes I do my little wiggle so we can get it over with. That is armor too. That is partial numbness.” Your body isn’t receiving all the expanding pleasure signals – it shuts down gradually rather than immediately. ### Can armor form even in a loving relationship? Yes — and this is the part that surprises people most. Armor doesn’t only form from violation by someone else. It forms from the violation of your own boundaries. Even in loving, committed relationships. Especially in them. Your partner wants intimacy. You notice they’re getting restless. It’s been two weeks. You think: once we start, I’ll get into it, I always do, and I love them. So you say yes when your body is still saying no. Your partner hasn’t violated you – but you’ve invited penetration when your tissues weren’t ready, when your nervous system wasn’t available yet. And your infinitely wise body registers: we’re being entered when we didn’t want to be entered… Over years, this accumulates… Contracts… Becomes armor. It happens regardless of gender – anyone whose desire is lower than their partner’s, who feels obligated to engage before their body is ready, can develop this protective disconnection. ### Why doesn’t “pushing through” the numbness work? For years, genital de-armoring in various traditions involved deep pressure, intense sensation, sometimes “cathartic” pain. The philosophy was: break through the armor, push past the resistance. Susanne discovered something radically different – and it came from her years as a midwife, learning to place her hands with presence and lean in gently until the body lets you in. “It’s never made any sense to me,” she says, “that when you have armor in your body because something was pushed too far inside of you, you would then use a technique of pushing too far to try to heal something that was pushed too far.” Think about what armor is: your body protecting itself because something overstepped its boundaries. Now consider the forceful approach – overstep those boundaries again, but call it healing. The body doesn’t know the difference. It only knows I’m being pushed past my limits again. So it tenses. It guards. You’re not releasing armor; you’re creating more. When you push, the body pushes back. When you wait, the body opens. ### Can numb tissue actually come back to life? This is the question underneath all the others, and the honest answer is yes – for most people, sensation can be restored. Not by force, and not on a schedule imposed onto it, but through safety, presence, and an invitation the body can trust and has spaciousness to respond to… When you bring attuned presence directly to the tissues – not talking about it, but meeting it somatically – the armor that formed for protection can begin to soften, because the conditions that required it are finally different. The boundary that was once overstepped is now honored. The body that once had to go numb to survive learns, slowly, that expansion is safe now. That is the whole work: creating the conditions where it’s finally safe to feel. ### A gentle practice you can begin on your own Susanne offers this practice for rebuilding the connection between your genitals and your conscious awareness. Take ample time first to settle your nervous system and create a private, unhurried space. External awareness. With a hand on your genitals, externally or internally, slowly explore the tissue with your fingers – gentle pressure, release, noticing texture and temperature. Keep all your attention in your fingertips. You’re exploring from the outside in.. gently, slowly, mindfully and with loving intention…. Internal awareness. Now switch completely. Keep your hand where it is, but move your awareness through your heart, down through your belly, into the tissue itself – and let the tissue feel what it’s like to be the one touching… See whether you can sense your finger… the pressure, temperature, texture and energy from the genital tissue…. You’ve stopped identifying with the hand; you’re sensing and touching from the inside. Discovery. Move to different areas and notice where sensation is clear, where it’s dull or distant, where there’s pain, and – most telling – where your finger registers touch but from the inside you can’t feel the finger at all. That last one is a numb area. You’ve just located armor. If you feel nothing at first, that’s not failure – that’s information. Sit with the nothing. If frustration or sadness arises, let it be there. Give yourself the space and permission to feel what’s present… As Susanne says, “Every time you give permission, it can transform into the next little thing.” ### Common questions 1.Is numbness during sex permanent? For most people, no, it doesn’t have to be. Numbness is usually protective rather than structural – the tissue and nerves are intact, but the signal to conscious awareness was disconnected. With safety, patience, and attuned somatic work, that connection can be reclaimed. It rarely happens on a forced timeline, but when there’s spaciousness to listen for what the armor needs, what it’s experienced, and room for the past events to be witnessed and held, the need for the armor to form in the first place melts away. 2\. Does genital armoring mean I was sexually abused? Not necessarily. Susanne’s work suggests around 80% of adult genital armor traces back to developmental experiences before age seven – the ordinary, accumulated moments of not being met or feeling safe and loved – rather than to overt sexual trauma. Many people with significant armoring have no history of abuse at all. 3\. Why do I feel nothing with a partner but the issue seems physical? Because the disconnect is usually between the tissue and conscious awareness, not a defect in the tissue itself. The nerves work; the signal has been protectively muted. This is why medical exams often find “nothing wrong” even when sensation is genuinely absent. 4\. Is forceful de-armoring or deep pressure necessary? No, and it often backfires. Force re-creates the boundary violation that caused the armor, prompting the body to guard harder. Soft, slow, invitational touch allows the nervous system to stop defending and open. Gentleness isn’t the lesser method; it’s the more effective one. 5\. Can I work on this without a practitioner? You can begin. The internal/external awareness practice above is a safe, self-directed starting point. Deeper layers – especially where trauma is held – are usually best met with a trained practitioner who understands the body’s pace. Every numbness, every contraction, every shutdown was your body doing exactly what it needed to keep you safe when no one else could. These aren’t malfunctions. They’re adaptations – your body’s intelligence, doing its best with the resources it had. And now, with awareness and safety and the right kind of presence, you can thank those protective parts, and when you’re ready, invite them to soften. Sensation, pleasure, and aliveness are your birthright, and your body has been waiting – patiently and wisely – for you to make it safe to come home… If something here landed, the Genital Awakening Meditation is a place to begin – about 15 minutes, with nothing required of you but attention. It comes with a checklist of the twelve places armoring most often lives: [rahichun.com/gift](https://rahichun.com/gift). And if you want to understand this work more deeply – whether for your own healing or because you support others in theirs – The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring is where I teach it fully: [rahichun.com/courses](https://rahichun.com/courses). In reverence, Rahi Susanne Roursgaard is the creator of The Gaia Method, integrating psychotherapy, trauma work, sexology, and 23 years of midwifery. Learn more at[ TheGaiaMethod.com](http://thegaiamethod.com/). Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring. For over a decade he has held space for individuals and couples restoring sensation, reclaiming sovereignty, and coming home to their embodied sexual nature. ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Genital De-armoring **Tags:** genital de-armoring --- ### [When Your Body Finally Learns That Pleasure Is Medicine](https://rahichun.com/articles/pleasure-is-medicine/) **Published:** February 25, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Content:** # When Your Body Finally Learns That Pleasure Is Medicine by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Feb 25, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ![pleasure is medicine somatic sexual healing sunlight nature embodiment](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/16-1080x675.jpg) Definition: Pleasure as medicine is the practice of using safe, embodied experiences of sensation, arousal, and connection to support nervous system regulation, positive neuroplasticity, and trauma integration — so healing becomes lived, not just understood. ## ## The Moment Everything Changed I need to tell you about the moment everything changed in my practice. I was working with a client — let’s call her Maya — who’d done five years of excellent trauma therapy. She could articulate exactly why she dissociated during sex. She understood her developmental wounds. She knew the neuroscience of her freeze response. But her body was still frozen. Still numb. Still unable to access pleasure without immediately shutting down. She looked at me with exhaustion in her eyes and said: “I’ve processed so much pain. When does the healing actually happen?” Something in me went quiet. Not because I didn’t have an answer — but because I realized we’d been asking the wrong question. The question isn’t: How do I process more trauma? The question is: ## ## How do I teach my body that pleasure is safe? Three months later, Maya called me crying. Not grief tears. Joy tears. “I just had sex where I stayed in my body the entire time. I felt everything. I didn’t leave once.” That sentence carries a whole universe inside it. If you’ve ever disappeared from your own body — even subtly — you know what a revolution it is to remain. What changed? We stopped only working on her trauma. We started cultivating pleasure. Not despite the trauma. Because of it. (And if you’re reading this with a soft ache in your chest, thinking, “I’ve done so much work… why am I still stuck?” — you’re not broken. You’re right on time.) ## ## The Missing Piece Everyone’s Overlooking When Devi Ward Erickson sat down at twenty years old with a razor blade and a bottle of wine, committed to ending her life, something stopped her at the last moment. She couldn’t do it. “That was a moment of reckoning,” she told me. “Up until that point, suicide had always been a backdoor. If this doesn’t work out, I’ll just kill myself. When that option was no longer available, I was left with – living in excruciating pain is also not an option.” She spent the next decade trying everything: herbalism, Reiki, crystal healing, raw foodism, becoming a monk practicing radical disembodiment. All of it helped her survive. None of it addressed the root. Then she encountered Tibetan five-element tantra — 1,200-year-old practices for using sexual energy to transform consciousness. “The sexual aspect was the one thing I had never tried,” she reflects. “I had tried everything else, and none of it alleviated the pain entirely.” Her first five-hour yoni massage session: “Indescribable ecstasy. An explosion of white light. Transcendence.” But here’s the key — it wasn’t just the bliss that healed her. ##### It was that the ecstasy outweighed the suffering. “For those of us who have a lot of trauma in the body, pleasure is a necessary counterbalance. We’re so motivated to move toward pleasure. But if you only get peanuts of pleasure — never bliss — there’s no fuel to move through what’s in the way.” That line lands like a bell in the bones. Because this is what Maya and I realized too — and it has informed my work ever since: You cannot think your way into embodied pleasure. You cannot process your way there. You have to practice your way there. And the practice isn’t more pain processing. The practice is cultivating states your body has been too afraid to feel: safety. aliveness. sustained arousal. bliss. Devi’s story goes much deeper than what’s here — including the specific Tibetan practices that changed everything. Hear it in her own words [here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/tantra-trauma-pleasure-healing/) ## ## Why Your Nervous System Needs More Than Trauma Processing Let me get technical for a moment, because this matters. When working with trauma, you’re working to reduce neural pathways of fear, shutdown, hypervigilance, dissociation. You’re helping the nervous system recognize the threat is over. Critical work. But here’s what most trauma models miss: You cannot just delete old pathways. You must build new ones. This is called positive neuroplasticity. Your body needs to learn — through repeated embodied experience, not intellectual insight — that: - Pleasure doesn’t signal danger - Arousal can exist without threat - Vulnerability doesn’t automatically lead to violation - Good feelings are safe to stay with And here’s where it gets intimate: Because for many of us, the problem was never that we didn’t understand what happened. The problem is that our bodies still expect it to happen again. So the body clamps down. It numbs. It rushes. It leaves. ## ## When The Body Couples Pleasure With Threat Think about Kimberly, whose babysitter abused her as a child while simultaneously giving her the attention her emotionally unavailable parents wouldn’t. Her nervous system coupled pleasure with violation, love with abuse. Years of therapy helped her understand this intellectually. But her body didn’t change until she began rewiring through practice: self-touch with presence, charging breath into raw nerve areas, staying with sensation, creating new associations between pleasure and safety through repetition. Or Nina, whose father angrily shamed her innocent childhood self-pleasure. For decades, her body believed: Touching myself is bad. Feeling good is dangerous. Understanding why didn’t change the wiring. What changed it: touching herself with presence, over and over at higher thresholds of arousal, while her nervous system gradually learned: I’m safe here. This is mine. This is good. That’s pleasure as medicine. Not indulgence. Not bypassing. But the positive neural scaffolding that supports trauma to actually release instead of just being understood. Let’s pause. Where in your intimate life have you tried to think or talk your way to healing — only to find your body stuck in patterns despite your cognitive understanding? Still frozen. Still shut down. Still unable to feel? What if the missing piece isn’t more understanding? What if it’s more pleasure? To hear what “rewiring through practice” actually sounds like from the inside – both Kimberly and Nina say it better than I ever could[ here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints/) ## ## The Performance Trap That Hijacked Everything Here’s the cruel irony: our culture didn’t just fail to teach us about pleasure. It weaponized pleasure into another performance metric. Orgasm counts. Duration. Intensity. Positions. Are you multi-orgasmic? Can you last long enough? Did you make your partner come? This isn’t pleasure. This is trauma in a different package. When Ariel and I first created simple graphs comparing goal-oriented sex to extended lovemaking for social media, our inboxes flooded. Not casual curiosity — hunger. Is there really another way? Because here’s what most of us learned: Get aroused. Build to orgasm. Release. Three to seven minutes. Done. Meanwhile, research shows the average woman requires twenty to forty-five minutes of foreplay for her full erogenous capacity to even become available. The math doesn’t work. I remember my own conditioning clearly — as a young teen masturbating in the family bathroom, terrified someone would knock. The training: Get there fast. Release the pressure. Move on. That same pattern showed up just a few years later in intimate relationships. Vulnerability surfaces… and I’d unconsciously reach for the exit ramp of orgasm. “It almost feels like a bandaid,” Ariel Szabo named it perfectly. “There’s this really deep level of connection couples are wanting, and they’re just not sure how to get there. So if you both have an orgasm, chemicals flood through and you momentarily feel good. But there’s a depth of connection and authenticity that’s not coming through. So there’s never actually satiation.” Fast food sex. And somewhere along the way — through porn culture, performance anxiety, and the belief that our worth is measured in orgasms given — sex stopped being about connection and became about achievement. Most of us have actually learned to use orgasm to avoid intimacy. Watch what happens in your own body next time. Notice when vulnerability starts to rise — that tender, exposed feeling that comes with deep connection. And notice how quickly the impulse comes to push toward orgasm, to complete the transaction, to escape the rawness. Performance-based sexuality isn’t just unfulfilling. It’s re-traumatizing. Every time you disconnect from your body’s actual desires to perform what you think you’re “supposed” to do, you reinforce the original wounding: My authentic experience doesn’t matter. What matters is getting it right. If the performance trap resonates, hear Ariel name the way out — in concrete, felt terms [here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) ## ## What Your Body Actually Needs: The Eight Pillars When Ariel and I host couples retreats, we introduce the work she developed called The Eight Pillars of Intimacy. Every couple — newly dating or together for decades — keeps returning to these. The Eight Pillars: 1 Slow down 2 Pause. 3 Notice. 4 Accept. 5 Trust. 6 Value. 7 Attune. 8 Communicate One participant had a profound realization: The first seven are internal. They’re about developing intimate relationship with your own body, your own sensations, your own truth. Only then can you communicate authentically with your beloved. This is radically different from how most of us learned sex. We learned to perform. To please. To track our partner’s arousal more closely than our own. To fake it when necessary. The Eight Pillars ask something else: What if you came home to your own body first? This connects directly to Dr. Betty Martin’s Wheel of Consent work — her foundational question: Who is this touch for? Most people spend intimate encounters on the “indirect route” — touching their partner, tracking their response, needing their partner’s pleasure to feel their own arousal. Betty’s work, like The Eight Pillars, invites the direct route: Feeling your own sensations in your own body in real time. Not performing. Not waiting for their response to know if you’re “doing it right.” Just being present with what’s actually happening. When you slow down enough to notice — really notice — you discover: - That touch your partner’s been doing for years? Doesn’t actually feel good. You’ve been enduring it. - That erogenous zone you never knew existed? It’s been waiting. - The way your breath changes approaching overwhelm? Your body’s been trying to tell you. The Eight Pillars make pleasure medicine instead of performance because they give your body permission to tell the truth. Let’s pause again. Think about the last intimate encounter you had. Were you truly present with your own sensations? Or were you performing, tracking, monitoring your partner’s response, managing the outcome? There’s no judgment here. Just recognition: this is how most of us learned. Is there another way? Explore “The Eight Pilars” & Extended Lovemaking from “Divine Union For Lovers”[ here.](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/)[ ](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) ## ## Extended Arousal: Following Waves Instead of Racing Peaks Let me show you visually what changes: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Meditative-Lovemaking-Graph.png "Meditative Lovemaking Graph | Rahi Chun") Goal-oriented sex: arousal builds quickly → brief plateau → sharp rise to orgasm → sharp drop → recovery. Three to fifteen minutes total. Extended lovemaking: arousal builds → pause, meditation, stillness → arousal heightens from presence alone → pause again → arousal takes a journey on its own → following waves of building and integrating for as long as bodies desire. An hour. Five hours. Over days. When you give your body permission to linger in arousal without demanding orgasm, three things happen: 1. Your nervous system begins to trust. Oh, we’re not racing to the exit. We can stay. 2. Your boundaries dissolve — expansively, not unsafely. The boundary between you and your beloved morphs. The boundary between you and the universe softens. Identity becomes optional. 3. You discover portals you never knew existed — not just genital. Whole-body. Energetic. Consciousness itself. Why does pausing matter so much? Because when you bring erotic embodiment into stillness, your cells can actually absorb that energy. It spreads throughout your entire system rather than concentrating in your genitals demanding release. The capacity for extended arousal grows with practice. What began as afternoon explorations evolved into experiences spanning days, then weeks, where we could return to lovemaking and almost pick up where we left off — arousal continuing to expand and deepen. And here’s the counterintuitive piece Ariel discovered: “When I refrain from orgasm every time, it makes me want more and more sex. There’s energy building that I don’t release all of it. I leave and go throughout my day in this low to medium state of arousal. I’m just walking around life turned on.” That buzz — that magnetic, life-affirming erotic current — doesn’t deplete you. It feeds you. It nourishes aliveness, creativity, intuition, and desire for connection. This is pleasure as medicine in action. Not pleasure as transaction. Not pleasure as release valve. Pleasure as sustained life force that infuses everything you touch. ## ## The Practice That Changes Everything: Edging Edging might be the most powerful practice for learning sustained arousal. And it requires every single one of the Eight Pillars. Edging means: bringing yourself (or being brought) to the edge of orgasm… and pausing. Coming back down. Letting the energy travel. Building again. Integrating — luxuriating. Pausing again. Staying in high arousal without discharge. You have to slow down enough to notice where you are on the arousal scale — not just zero to ten, but the subtle gradations between six and seven, eight and nine. You have to pause when approaching the point of no return. Not because orgasm is wrong, but because you’re choosing something else: staying in the experience. You have to communicate: “Wait. Slower. Let me come back down.” And — this is the transformative part — you have to excavate the psychological attachments underneath the physical urge to orgasm. Why do you reach for it? To avoid vulnerability? Prove your worth? End the encounter before it gets too intimate? Release tension that feels uncomfortable to hold? Ariel names it: “When you can really slow down enough to excavate why we have certain attachments, we can start to untangle and create new patterns.” ## ## This is where pleasure work becomes trauma work Where expanded states of pleasure become healing for the soul. For many of us — especially those with early sexual imprinting — orgasm became the way to complete an encounter that felt dangerous. Get there fast. End it. Escape. Decades later, that pattern persists. Extended arousal feels threatening. The nervous system wants out. Edging teaches: You can stay. You’re safe. There’s more here if you don’t run. And wow — it’s unbelievably magnificent. Ron and Pono Stewart share how erection and arousal are information, not performance metrics. When you meet your body’s responses with curiosity rather than judgment, edging becomes self-discovery. Once you hear it framed as information, you can’t unhear it – [here](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) ## ## The Portal You’ve Been Carrying: Your Cervix I need to tell you something about your body almost no one has told you. You’re carrying a portal. Not metaphorical — anatomical. The cervix has three sets of paired nerves connecting into it. More than almost any other part of reproductive anatomy. Scientifically, it should be capable of profound pleasure. For most people, it feels like nothing. Or pain, numbness, repulsion, medical trauma. When Olivia Naomi Bryant began her cervical de-armoring journey, she felt like she was “housing a brick inside my pelvis. Heavy, blocked, painful. No libido. Very limited access to orgasm.” She’d been a sex educator. Trained in sex coaching. Taken tantric workshops. Almost given up. Then during a healing session: “Can you feel your cervix?” She could not. Completely numb. That launched an eight-month journey. Eight months. Not a weekend workshop. Not five simple steps. Daily or near-daily practice. Mostly alone. Patient. Devoted. - Month three: first sensation (just awareness, not pleasure) - **Month five**: energy moving, emotions surfacing - Month eight: pleasure. cervix-heart connection. full-body bliss This is re-wilding pleasure. Not rushing. Not performing. Not forcing. Building relationship with tissue that learned it wasn’t safe to feel. Here’s what Olivia discovered that changes everything: The cervix shares an acupuncture channel with the heart. Energetically, they’re intimately connected. When these two centers come into coherence — cervix (belonging, safety, earth, root) and heart (love, spirit, cosmos, transcendence) — you experience what she calls “the half-human, half-divine nature of cervical orgasm.” “We’re experiencing transcendent, spiritual magic through the human senses, through our bodies.” Through her Cervical Orgasm Research Project, Olivia has collected hundreds of accounts. The medical world often says cervical orgasms don’t exist. But here’s the consistent theme across 95% of reports: Love is present. Your cervix is asking for what you’re asking for: love, presence, attention, safety. The cervix-heart connection she describes toward the end of this conversation stopped me in my tracks –[ here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) ## ## The 30-Day Clitoral Orgasm Fast One of Olivia’s most provocative practices: the 30-day clitoral orgasm fast. She’s not anti-clitoral pleasure. She’s pro-discovering what else is there. “When we rely exclusively on clitoral stimulation, we often do so to avoid feeling. Sometimes we have clitoral orgasms because we’re avoiding our loneliness, our lack of connection, our grief.” Her first year of cervical work? Maybe four clitoral orgasms total. “It was really hard. I thought: I’ll never have an orgasm again.” But on the other side: an entire universe of internal sensation she didn’t know existed. This connects to what Ariel discovered with extended lovemaking — when orgasm stops being a required outcome, something wild happens: You walk through your day turned on. And that alive energy doesn’t deplete. It feeds everything. The Fire Element: Pleasure That Burns Through What Needs To Go Let me take you into the teaching that transformed Devi’s life… Tibetan five-element tantra isn’t about sex techniques. It’s a 1,200-year-old system understanding elements in your body as portals to liberation. Specifically: fire element in the pelvis. “Fire element equals bliss,” Devi explained. “Not just pleasure — bliss. Pleasure is temporary sensation. Bliss is sustained state of aliveness, openness, presence.” And here’s where it gets interesting: Fire burns through what needs to go. Attachment. Grasping. Control. Armor. Old patterns. What remains? Essence. Freedom. Capacity. This isn’t spiritual bypassing. It’s understanding that your pelvis — your sexual center, your power center — holds not just trauma, but also the medicine for that trauma. As Coocky Tassanee taught me about Sen Line 10 in Thai massage: ancient healing systems understood what Western medicine forgot. The pelvis is your furnace of life force energy. When that fire is extinguished — through trauma, shame, cultural conditioning, oppression — everything shuts down. Depression. Depletion. Disconnection. When that fire is rekindled — not through force, but through patient, conscious cultivation — everything comes alive. Vitality. Creativity. Magnetism. Devi’s practice is simple but requires what Western culture struggles with: Non-goal-oriented repetition. Place one hand on your heart. One on your pelvis. Breathe from pelvis to heart on the inhale. Breathe from heart to pelvis on the exhale. Not trying to achieve anything. Cultivating. Like tending a fire. Adding fuel slowly. Watching it grow. Allowing warmth to spread… And here’s the piece that clicked everything into place for me: ## ## This work is inherently political Devi doesn’t shy from naming it: “Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia — all oppression lives in the pelvis. Stored in our tissues as shutdown, shame, armor” When systems teach you your body is wrong, that your desires are shameful, that your pleasure doesn’t matter – that gets encoded somatically. This resonates powerfully with what Becky Carter taught me about compound injury in BIPOC bodies, and what Captain (Dr. Liam Snowden) taught about queer and trans embodiment. Individual pleasure isn’t separate from collective liberation. Your body reclaiming its capacity for bliss is a political act. Becky’s framework for how oppression compounds across generations — in the same body — is one of the most clarifying things I’ve heard –[ here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/)[ ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## ## When Shame Transforms: The Body Electric Story I was twenty-three, standing in the Bodhi Tree bookstore in Los Angeles in 1990, holding a flyer for a Body Electric workshop. I had no idea what I was signing up for. I just knew — in that way the body knows before the mind — I was supposed to be there. Twenty-five men. Breath as engine. Erotic energy as fuel. And at the end: this visceral knowing I am not separate from anything — anyone — the divine mystery animating all of this. Thirty-five years later, Body Electric is still teaching this work. Craig Cullinane – who just completed 4 years as director – describes his portal moment at thirty-three: “I had deep body shame. Body dysmorphia. Crippling. I couldn’t take my shirt off at the beach. Such a wall for intimacy.” Then: a Body Electric workshop. One practice is what Craig calls “a very beautiful and honoring undressing ritual.” “You are consciously undressed. These layers of separation — these metaphors of clothing — are peeled away in this very beautiful and honoring way.” You are consciously undressed. Not by yourself. Not rushing. But slowly. Witnessed. Honored. Each layer of armor acknowledged for what it protected. Then released. “It just healed something inside.” At the end — wrapped in a sheet, breath moving — Craig experienced merging with all things. “I wasn’t experiencing separation. I had come home. And something just fell away that I didn’t need.” The shame. The shroud. The lie that he wasn’t worthy. Craig teaches now: “I think about shame as this shroud that obscures the truth of our worthiness.” I ask Craig what actually allows shame to transmute in group containers. His answer: care. “Body Electric cares for participants.” This manifests through: - clear norms revisited again and again - options to participate or not - titration, allowing the nervous system to settle This echoes everything Kimberly Ann Johnson teaches about nervous system work: Architecture of safety isn’t nice to have. It’s the foundation from which everything becomes possible. Without safety, the nervous system stays in protection. Armor locked. Pleasure inaccessible. With safety — real safety — the body remembers it can let go. Four years directing Body Electric. Craig has watched hundreds of people have the experience he had at thirty-three. He knows exactly what makes it work — and he tells us [here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/)[ ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) ## ## Aging Bodies And The Creation Of Desire Let me tell you about Frank and Judith — who met when Frank was sixty-nine and Judith was sixty. They were about to experience the most ecstatic sex of their lives. But first: cancer. Complete loss of spontaneous desire. And learning that real intimacy requires the disciplined practice Frank brought to flying fighter jets in Vietnam. When Judith was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s lymphoma one year in, everything changed. Chemotherapy. Lost hair. Support groups where she learned a lot of husbands left. Frank did not. Six years to feel “normal” again. Never as vital as before. Spontaneous desire? Gone. And yet — Judith experiences the most fulfilling sex of her life with Frank. How? By creating it. Every day. Through ritual, practice, disciplined commitment. Here’s the teaching that changes everything for long-term relationships and aging bodies: In later life, desire doesn’t come first. Arousal comes first, and then desire follows. Judith is unflinchingly honest: “Desire is not automatic anymore… It’s something I have to create.” They practice daily rituals — morning worship, evening news, gratitude — and a Sunday tantric ceremony no matter what. “And then desire appears because of the connection between us. Frank knows every inch of my body—it’s not new. But what’s beyond that is the reach of his heart to my heart, which goes straight down to my genitals. You have to be conscious. You have to create it daily.” Frank says: “If people practiced their lovemaking like Top Gun pilots practice their craft, wouldn’t that be amazing?” Pilots don’t wait to “feel like” doing pre-flight checklists. They do it because their life depends on it. If you’re in a long-term relationship, read that again. Most couples wait for desire. Frank and Judith create it. And the result? The best sex of their lives. Frank flew fighter jets in Vietnam. Judith survived cancer. Together they have the best sex of their lives at seventy-something. This conversation is a masterclass – [here.](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/) ## ## Simple Practices You Can Start Tonight 1. Touch Your Own Skin (10 minutes) Craig’s teaching: “Just take a little time to put your hands on your body and touch your skin. Imagine you’re covering it with wonderful honey love lotion. Simple but profound.” Not as foreplay to something else. Just: I am here. In this body. Touching this skin. Breathing. 2. The Heart-Pelvis Bridge (5 minutes daily) Devi’s practice: Hand on heart. Hand on pelvis. Breathe from pelvis to heart on the inhale. Breathe from heart to pelvis on the exhale. Notice what you feel. Warmth? Tingling? Emotion? Resistance? You’re creating a pathway. Between heart (love, presence) and pelvis (bliss, creative power, life force). 3. Intentional Self-Pleasure (20-30 minutes weekly) Not the quick release. Not scrolling porn. Music. Lubricant. Breath. Touch. Experiment: Can I explore pleasure without orgasm as a goal? Can I edge—approach the point of no return, then pause, explore, attune, where does it want to take me, until the next edge? You’re training your body to stay present with intensity. 4. The 30-Day Experiment Craig teaches “The 30-Day Porn Cleanse.” Some stop watching entirely. Some watch but bring consciousness—breathing, moving, staying present. Either way: What arises when you step back from the habit? Often grief. Unexpressed emotion porn was helping numb. When you remove distraction, feelings surface. Feelings are the gateway back into your body. 5. Practice One Pillar (Start with Slowing Down) Tonight, when you touch your beloved (or yourself): Slow down. That’s it. That’s the practice. See what happens when you bring just 10% more slowness to your touch. 6. Establish Weekly Intimacy Time From Frank and Judith: Not “if we feel like it.” Not “if we’re not too tired.” Committed time every week where you meet for connection and pleasure. Begin with 20-30 minutes of non-sexual connection. Then see where the bodies want to go. You’re not waiting for desire. You’re creating conditions for desire to emerge. ## ## Your Body Has Been Asking Your body has been asking for permission to feel good. Not to perform. Not to achieve. Not to prove anything. Just to feel. To stay. To linger in the space between arousal and release — exploring vast terrains that performance-based sex races past. And here’s what I want you to know: The capacity for extended arousal, for altered states, for boundary-dissolving union… it’s already in you. It’s not something you learn from scratch. It’s something you unlearn your way back to. Unlearn the conditioning that sex equals penetration. Unlearn the belief your worth is measured in orgasms given. Unlearn performance anxiety keeping you racing toward finish lines. Unlearn shame that taught you pleasure was dangerous, selfish, wrong. What’s underneath? Your body’s original wisdom. The pleasure intelligence you were born with. Begin Here, Tonight Place one hand on your heart. One hand on your pelvis. Breathe slowly. Deeply. Imagine breathing from pelvis to heart with each inhale. Imagine breathing from heart to pelvis with each exhale. Five minutes. Notice what you feel. Warmth? Tingling? Emotion? Resistance? Let it all be welcome. You are creating a pathway — between your heart and your pelvis. Over time, this pathway becomes stronger, more open, more alive. You are creating conditions for healing to occur. For pleasure to become medicine. For re-wilding to begin. This is how the revolution starts: One breath. One body. One moment of choosing to feel instead of fleeing. Your body has been waiting. The portal has been here all along. Welcome home. ## ## Further Listening - [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/podcast/tantra-trauma-pleasure-healing/) on pleasure as counterbalance - [Ariel & Rahi](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy) on extended lovemaking + intimacy - [Olivia Naomi Bryant](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing) on cervical awakening - [Ron & Pono Stewart](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men) on arousal as information - [Becky Carter](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body) on how compounding trauma lives in the body - [Craig Cullinane](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment) / Body Electric on shame + care - [Frank & Judith](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion) on creating desire over time ## ## Deepening Your Practice ##### If you feel called to continue with guidance: - [Divine Union For Lovers](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) — The Eight Pillars, edging, extended lovemaking - [The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) — releasing numbness, restoring sensation - [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) — rewiring patterns, restoring aliveness - [Turned On By Touch](https://rahichun.com/turnedonbytouch/) — foundational touch + receiving practices (non-genital) All available at [www.rahichun.com](https://www.rahichun.com/) ## ## FAQ ### Is pleasure really medicine for trauma? Pleasure can become medicine when it’s cultivated safely and repetitively, allowing the nervous system to form new associations of safety, sensation, and presence. ### Why does trauma block pleasure? The nervous system may associate arousal with danger, leading to shutdown, numbness, dissociation, or urgency. ### What are somatic sexual healing practices? They are body-based practices — including breath, touch, slowing down, and nervous system regulation — that support restoring sensation and intimacy. ### What’s the difference between pleasure and performance? Pleasure is direct sensation and presence. Performance is outcome-focused and often disconnects us from authentic bodily truth. ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** Extended Lovemaking, nervous system and intimacy, pleasure is medicine, sexual embodiment practices, somatic sexual healing, trauma and pleasure --- ### [Can You Heal Sexual Abuse You Don't Remember?](https://rahichun.com/articles/can-you-heal-sexual-abuse-you-dont-remember/) **Published:** August 28, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** You don't need the memory to heal. The body holds what happened, and somatic work can release it whether or not the mind supplies the story. **Content:** # Can You Heal Sexual Abuse You Don’t Remember? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Aug 28, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ![Person wearing a light sleeveless shirt crosses hands over the chest in a park setting](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/self-judgement-mindfulness-self-compassion-meditation.png) ## Can You Heal Sexual Abuse You Don’t Remember? Yes. The psyche often withholds memories until there’s enough support to hold them, in many cases, for decades. And healing doesn’t require the memory first. The body holds what happened, and somatic work can release it whether or not the mind ever supplies the story. As a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I’ve watched this unfold many times. If you suspect something happened to you but have no clear memory of it, you’re not imagining things and you’re not stuck. The absence of memory isn’t a barrier to healing. Your body has been keeping the record, and it knows how to let it go when the conditions are safe and right for you. Pamelah didn’t have memories of being sexually abused until she was forty years old. This is more common than most people realize, especially when abuse occurred very young and stopped early. The psyche, in its wisdom, often won’t allow memories to surface until there’s a sufficient support system in place to hold them. “I had all these little hints,” Pamelah says, “but until I knew I was in a safe enough place, until I had a therapist I trusted, someone I had worked with for years, I couldn’t be in the memory.” Her body knew. Her nervous system knew. Her psyche waited until the conditions for healing were present. ### Why do memories surface decades later? Because the psyche is protecting you until you can survive the knowing. The memories came for Pamelah during breathwork with a therapist she trusted deeply, a woman she describes as earthy and caring, someone she knew had her back. She’d gone in saying, “I think I’ve been sexually abused.” Her therapist knew what might be coming, and had the tools to help her stay present with it. What surfaced wasn’t a mental image. It was visceral. “It felt real to me because I felt it,” she says. “It wasn’t a mental experience that I thought I was making up. I could feel it in my body.” And then something extraordinary happened as she shared it. “I felt this experience of the cells in my body literally rearranging themselves. I could feel them moving. This space that I had been holding this secret, which is what it was, I was holding this secret, was now free.” This is what happens when what’s been held in shadow is finally brought into light and received in safe space. The cellular structure can release the tension that went toward keeping the secret in the dark. The body can finally exhale. ### Why do I leave my body during sex? Because when a child is sexually abused, especially very young, the emotional body detaches and leaves. It’s a survival mechanism, the only way a small nervous system can cope with something far too overwhelming to integrate. Pamelah recognized this pattern in herself long before she understood its origin. “I had an experience of being aware that when I would have sex as an adult, I would leave emotionally. I just wouldn’t be present.” Once the memory returned, a floodgate opened. Patterns from her teenage years and young adulthood suddenly made sense. Why she flirted with older men. Why she couldn’t sustain long-term relationships. Why she left emotionally during sex. “I thought there was something wrong with me,” she says. “What’s wrong with me that I can’t stay in a long-term relationship?” Nothing was wrong with her. A very young nervous system had learned to leave, and it kept doing what it learned. ### What does healing actually require? Safety, support, permission, and time. Not force, and not a schedule. “The body’s sense of readiness is everything,” Pamelah emphasizes. “My psyche knew I couldn’t handle those memories until I had the support system in place. And even when the memories came, it took two years of therapy to work through all the consciousness changes that had to happen.” Her path included several elements, and they mattered in combination: therapy with a practitioner who specialized in sexual abuse; a women’s group where she could hear other women’s stories and rebuild trust in female relationships; voice lessons with a teacher who held space for full emotional expression; tantra retreats where she learned inner pelvic release; and eventually somatic sessions where we worked to release the last layers of numbness and pain. This isn’t a one-time event. Sexual healing from childhood trauma is a journey of integration. It requires recognizing the effects, making sense of behaviors that once seemed confusing, and gently inviting the body back into the present. ### Why does permission matter so much? Because a body that knows it has full authority can finally relax. “One of the most significant things in our sessions,” Pamelah reflects, “was having permission to move at my pace. If something hurt, I could stop and acknowledge that it hurt instead of just tolerating it.” This is foundational to somatic work: putting the body in the driver’s seat. When the body knows it can say stop, slow down, more, less, and that its word will be honored instantly, the nervous system can trust. And trust is the precondition for everything else. She describes the pivotal moments. “I remember the day when my vagina, when you had your fingers inside and I felt pain, and I realized I had been numb all this time. I had no idea it was numb because I couldn’t feel anything.” This is the paradox of numbness: we don’t know what we can’t feel. “And there was a day when entering my vagina didn’t hurt anymore. For a long time it hurt. And then one day it didn’t.” She also worked with confusion, a sensation she first thought was happening in the moment, which turned out to be unintegrated emotion from past sexual experiences. “After I was present with that confusion, and we did some breathing and gave it a voice, it evolved into arousal and pleasure.” ### What does the voice have to do with the pelvis? More than most people realize. The throat nerve correlates with the pelvic nerve. The jaw muscles correlate with the psoas. Both are major orifices of the body, and they tend to open and close together. Pamelah’s voice teacher understood that the more connected we are to our true emotions, the better we sing. So the assignments were unusual. “Your job today is to feel jealousy. Just sit for an hour and feel jealousy.” “I sat there and I got really conscious of how I felt jealous. I felt the jealousy in my body. I had full permission to feel it. And after about an hour, I had gotten over the jealousy because I had permission to fully feel it.” After her cat died, the assignment was to spend the weekend crying. “I spent a weekend just sobbing. And then I’d sing and my voice would sound better. Then I’d cry some more and my voice would sound better.” This is the power of full permission to feel. When we stop holding emotions down, the body softens, the voice opens, and the pelvis releases. ### A practice: hand on your heart If you’re carrying unprocessed experiences, this simple practice helps resource your nervous system and build safety from the inside. Find a quiet space where you won’t be disturbed. Sit or lie comfortably. Place one hand on your heart and the other, if it feels right, cupping your belly or pelvis. Breathe slowly. With each inhale, imagine breathing from your heart down into your pelvis. With each exhale, imagine the breath rising from your pelvis back to your heart. As you breathe, say silently to yourself: I am safe right now. My body is wise. I trust my pace. Five to ten minutes, or as long as feels nourishing. Notice what sensations arise. Notice what emotions arise. Let them be present without needing to change anything. Re-visit this practice when your body feels curious about re-connecting with itself. There is a cumulative effect in self-awareness, self-trust, and self-compassion and care that the body begins to trust again. ### Common questions 1\. Can you heal from abuse you don’t remember? Yes. Somatic approaches work directly with what the body holds, which doesn’t require narrative memory. Many people release significant held material without ever recovering a clear story, and the healing is no less real. 2\. Are recovered memories reliable? This is contested territory, and it deserves care. What’s clear is that bodily sensation and pattern can be genuine information even when the narrative is incomplete. Working with a skilled, non-leading therapist matters enormously, precisely because suggestion can shape memory. 3\. Why did my memories surface now? Often because your system finally has the support to hold them. The psyche tends to withhold what it doesn’t yet have resources to survive. Memories arriving can be a sign of increased capacity rather than a crisis, whether that involves greater emotional security in close relationships, therapeutic support, financial security leading to spaciousness beyond survival, and/or self-agency in greater somatic awareness and embodiment. 4\. Why do I dissociate during sex? Because dissociation was likely an effective survival strategy at some point. A young nervous system that couldn’t escape learned to leave internally. That pattern persists until the body has enough new experience of safety to stop using it. 5\. How long does this take? Pamelah’s process spanned years, not weeks, and included multiple modalities. That’s typical rather than slow. The body integrates on its own timeline, and pushing it usually adds guarding rather than progress. Your body has been keeping a record it never asked to keep. The numbness, the leaving, the patterns that made no sense, these aren’t failures. They’re survival strategies that worked when you needed them. And when you’re ready, with support and safety and permission and time, they can be released. If something here landed, the Genital Awakening Meditation is a gentle place to begin, about 15 minutes with nothing required of you but attention. It comes with a checklist of the twelve places armoring most often lives: [rahichun.com/gift](https://rahichun.com/gift).. And if you’re on the path of restoring sensation and pleasure after trauma, Reclaiming Your Pleasure is where I walk that journey with you: [rahichun.com/courses](https://rahichun.com/courses). With reverence, Rahi Pamelah Landers is a hand analyst and relationship coach, and a longtime friend and colleague. She shared her story with permission. Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring. More at[ RahiChun.com](https://rahichun.com/). ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** childhood sexual abuse, genital de-armoring, sexual awakening, Sexual Healing, Sexual Trauma --- ### [Why Is My Period Blood Brown?](https://rahichun.com/articles/why-is-my-period-blood-brown/) **Published:** September 1, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Brown period blood usually means old blood that didn't clear, a sign of stagnation. Here's what it indicates and what actually helps circulation. **Content:** # Why Is My Period Blood Brown? by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Sep 1, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ![Close-up of a person in white underwear holding a red flower at the pelvic area, with hands cradling the bloom between the legs.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-01-at-90726-AM.png) # *Why Is My Period Blood Brown?* Brown, black or clotty menstrual blood usually reflects old blood that didn’t fully clear from a previous cycle, a sign of stagnation rather than healthy flow. Many people are told it’s simply “normal for them.” Often it responds to warmth, circulation, and pelvic care. As a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker, I see this pattern shift regularly once circulation improves. If your period starts or ends brown or darker, or is brown throughout, you’ve likely asked a doctor and been told not to worry about it. That answer isn’t wrong exactly, but it’s incomplete. Brown blood is information, and there’s usually something to be done about it. Keli Garza’s period had been missing for three months. Not from anything physical, but from trauma. Her body’s response to an overwhelming experience was to shut down one of its most fundamental rhythms. One night she went to sleep with a question: how do I get my period to come back? She woke with an answer that seemed to come from nowhere. Vaginal steaming. She went to a Korean spa and tried it. A couple hours after her first session, her period started. But the blood wasn’t brown, as it had been her entire adult life. It was red. Fresh. When she’d asked her OB-GYN years earlier whether brown blood was normal, they’d said: “Is it always brown? Then that’s normal for you. Just contact us if something’s different.” Looking at that red blood, Keli knew with certainty that this was better. That moment began her work, and she went on to found Steamy Chick and over the years has become the leading authority on vaginal steaming. ## What does brown period blood actually mean? It generally means oxidized blood, blood that sat before it left. Fresh blood is red. Blood that lingers turns brown. Some brown at the very beginning or very end of a cycle is common. Brown throughout, or consistently, tends to indicate that the uterus isn’t fully clearing each month, and residue from previous cycles is being carried forward. The underlying issue is usually stagnation: insufficient circulation, chronic pelvic tension, or a uterus that isn’t getting the blood flow it needs to complete its work. Keli’s framing is blunt and worth sitting with: “Brown is not normal. Pain is not okay. And you don’t need to hand your body over to the male doctors every time you have a health issue.” ## *Why did my doctor say it’s normal?* Often because “normal for you” is the honest answer within a specific framework, not because the question was fully investigated. There’s a structural reason worth understanding. As Dr. Lorena Mendoza explained to Keli, “A doctor can only talk about what they learned in medical school. Anything outside of that, they actually have to advise against because of the legal framework they’re in.” It’s not ignorance. It’s liability. Which means practices outside standard training land in a strange limbo where absence of instruction functions as a warning. When vaginal steaming entered mainstream U.S. awareness around 2015, the medical response was immediate and emphatic: don’t do it, it can’t affect hormones, there’s no evidence. Much of that advice came from doctors who acknowledged they didn’t know what the practice involved. Keli remembers the dissonance. “I didn’t get it. I’d been doing this. It had been healthy for me. And now doctors were saying don’t do it, doctors who didn’t even know what it was.” ## *Why would warmth make any difference?* Because circulation is the foundation of healing everywhere else in the body, and the pelvis is not an exception. Warmth dilates blood vessels, which means more oxygen and nutrients delivered and better cellular function. Heat relaxes muscles, so a chronically tense pelvic floor can soften, easing pain from holding patterns and improving elimination and sexual function. The vagus nerve innervates the cervix, so soothing warmth in the area helps activate the parasympathetic nervous system, shifting the body from survival toward repair. And gentle heat supports the movement of stagnant fluid: old menstrual blood, post-birth lochia, cellular waste. As Keli puts it: “If we understand anything about the body, it’s that warmth and circulation is good and stagnation is bad. Every single injury, no matter where it is, you have to get circulation, you have to get warmth, in order for that part of the body to heal.” We accept this everywhere else. Heat packs, warm baths, saunas, hot compresses. The resistance appears only when the pelvis is involved. ## *Is this safe?* Sensibly done, warmth applied externally to the vulva and perineum is a low-risk practice, and it’s worth being clear about what that means and doesn’t. Steam should be warm, never hot, and never applied to broken skin, during pregnancy, with an IUD without guidance, or during active menstruation. The temperature that’s appropriate is closer to a warm bath than a sauna. Anyone with an active infection, recent surgery, or an unexplained symptom should get that looked at first, because warmth doesn’t substitute for diagnosis. I’d add my own note as a practitioner: brown blood, pelvic pain, and cycle irregularity all deserve real medical evaluation, by an integrative or female-health-focussed practitioner to rule out conditions that need treatment. Circulation practices work alongside that, not instead of it. ## *What else supports pelvic circulation?* Warmth is one lever among several, and the others cost nothing. Movement matters enormously, particularly anything that mobilizes the hips and pelvis rather than keeping them fixed. Chronic sitting is one of the more underrated contributors to pelvic stagnation. Releasing chronic pelvic-floor tension matters too, because a gripped pelvic floor restricts flow the same way a clenched fist does. Breath that reaches the belly and pelvis rather than staying high in the chest changes pressure and circulation throughout the abdomen. And warmth in general, whether baths, heat, or steam, does the same work. In my own practice, when clients release long-held pelvic tension, cycle changes are among the most common things they report without my ever asking about it. ### Common questions 1\. Is brown period blood normal? Some brown at the start or end of a cycle is common. Consistently brown flow usually indicates oxidized blood that didn’t clear from previous cycles, which points to stagnation rather than a health emergency. It’s worth investigating rather than dismissing. 2\. Why is my period blood brown at the beginning and end? That’s the most common pattern and often unremarkable. Flow is slower at the edges of a cycle, so blood spends more time before leaving and oxidizes. Brown throughout the cycle is the version worth examining. 3\. Does vaginal steaming actually work? The mechanism, warmth increasing circulation and relaxing the pelvic floor, is ordinary physiology we accept everywhere else in the body. Rigorous clinical research is limited, so honest framing matters: so many people around the world and within my sessions report meaningful life-altering changes, and the underlying principle is sound, but this isn’t a heavily studied intervention. 4\. Is vaginal steaming safe? Done gently and warm rather than hot, it’s low-risk for most people. Avoid it during pregnancy, during active menstruation, with an IUD without guidance, with an active infection, or after recent surgery. Persistent symptoms warrant medical evaluation regardless. 5\. Can pelvic tension affect my period? Yes. Chronic pelvic-floor tension restricts blood flow and lymphatic movement, which affects how completely the uterus clears each cycle. This is one reason people often notice cycle changes after somatic pelvic work. Your period is information. Brown blood, cramping, irregularity, these aren’t things to simply accept because someone said they’re normal for you. They’re your body communicating about circulation, tension, and flow. And in most cases there’s something you can actually do. If something here landed, the Genital Awakening Meditation is a gentle place to begin, about twenty minutes with nothing required of you but attention. It comes with a checklist of the twelve places armoring most often lives:[ rahichun.com/gift](https://rahichun.com/awaken). And if you want to go deeper into pelvic health, sensation, and pleasure, Reclaiming Your Pleasure is where I teach it:[ rahichun.com/courses](https://rahichun.com/courses). With reverence, Rahi Keli Garza is the founder of Steamy Chick and the Steamy Chick Institute, and has conducted extensive survey research on vaginal steaming. Learn more at [steamychick.com](http://steamychick.com). Rahi Chun is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator and Sexological Bodyworker specializing in genital de-armoring. More at [rahichun.com](https://rahichun.com/) ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Articles, Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** brown menstrual blood, cramping, menstruation, periods, PMS, regulating periods, urogenital steaming, Vaginal steaming --- ### [The Body Doesn't Forget: Soft De-Armoring, the Psoas, and the Hidden Roots of Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/susanne-roursgaard-stine-krage-soft-de-armoring/) **Published:** June 18, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Susanne Roursgaard and Stine Krage — pioneers of The Gaia Method and Prostatic Portal — join Rahi to reveal what soft de-armoring actually touches, why the pelvis holds childhood wounds, and how breath, sound, and safe space allow the body to finally let go. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # The Body Doesn’t Forget: Soft De-Armoring, the Psoas, and the Hidden Roots of Sexual Healing ### *with Susanne Roursgaard & Stine Krage* # ### ### ## In This Episode We explore what de-armoring actually is and why it reaches places that talk therapy and standard bodywork cannot. Susanne Roursgaard and Stine Krage — two of the most experienced pelvic practitioners working today — unpack why the pelvis holds so much more than people expect, what it takes to create a space safe enough for the body’s deepest layers to surface, and what the field of somatic sexual healing still gets wrong. You’ll leave with a clearer understanding of how fascia, breath, sound, and energetic ethics work together — and why clinical knowledge and somatic intuition are not opposites, but two legs the same practitioner needs. ![Two women smiling in a split-image: left is an older woman with gray-blonde hair and a gray sweater outdoors; right is a younger woman with long brown hair in bright sunlight.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/susanne_stine_podcast.png "susanne_stine_podcast | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) About Our Guests: Susanne Roursgaard is a psychotherapist, body-oriented trauma therapist, family therapist, and sexologist specializing in sexual abuse – and the originator of soft de-armoring, a practice that does not push through the body’s armor but invites it to open. She brings 23 years as a midwife and over 30 years of somatic experience to the Gaia Method, a body-oriented modality weaving together de-armoring, breathwork, sound, movement, energy work, and psychotherapy. Drawing from psychology, neuroscience, shamanism, tantra, and yoga, Susanne trains practitioners across Europe and beyond from her base in Denmark. Stine Krage is a certified midwife, somatic therapist, integral sexologist, and Compassionate Inquiry practitioner. Through her practice Amosoma and as co-creator of the Prostatic Portal, she has become one of the most respected voices in the field on male sexual health and prostate healing – bringing clinical precision, deep anatomical knowledge, and a rare quality of compassion to work that most practitioners have never been trained to approach. She joins this conversation from the midst of a training in Italy. ### Links: [The Gaia Method](https://www.the-gaia-method.com/) [The Gaia Method Advanced Sexuality Training](https://gaiatrain-ke7mejo6.manus.space/?utm_id=97758_v0_s00_e0_tv0) [21-Day Women’s Self De-armoring Journey](https://www.the-gaia-method.com/product-page/21-day-challenge-a-womens-journey) [The Prostatic Portal](https://theprostaticportal.com/) [Amosoma](http://amosoma.com/) [Blog Article of this Interview](https://rahichun.com/articles/soft-de-armoring-with-susanne-roursgaard-stine-krage/) ## What You’ll Learn About Soft De-Armoring, Prostate Healing, and Somatic Sexual Practice $ Why de-armoring is not massage — and what it actually touches in the fascia and nervous system $ What “matching tone” means for a practitioner, and what happens to the boundary between practitioner and client when it’s found $ How the body tests the practitioner before it opens — and why patience, not technique, is what passes that test $ Why 70–80% of what lives in the pelvic tissue traces to early childhood rather than adult sexual experience, and what Susanne finds when clients come in hoping to heal a “sexual issue” $ The parallel between the neural wiring of the prostate and the cervix — and why most men have cycled through practitioners who don’t touch the very tissue most in need of healing $ How Stine reads breath diagnostically from the moment a client walks in — and why a trauma breath pattern can make somatic work unreachable until the breath itself is addressed $ What over-breathing does to CO2 tolerance and why it keeps the nervous system locked in fight-or-flight regardless of what happens in session $ How sounding connects the vocal cords anatomically to the cervix and prostate — and why letting sound move amplifies whatever the body is already doing $ What genuine space holding actually requires of a practitioner — including the capacity to sit with intense emotion, maintain unhurried presence, and hold clear sexual boundaries in any container $ Why the psoas deserves its own module — as the muscle of fight, flight, and freeze, the seat of early trauma coding, and the reason direct manipulation cannot reach what it’s holding $ Why clinical knowledge — including when to refer before ever working with a client — is not separate from somatic practice but essential to it ## ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [Genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [Genital armouring and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [Cervical healing and orgasmic potential ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) [How to restore genital sensation from numbness or pain](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-to-restore-genital-sensations-pleasure/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) \[00:00:00\] I'm very, very excited today. I know I say that a lot, that I'm very, very excited, but today we have two of my favorite people who over the years have really generously shared their unique bodies of work and expertise, uh, with my students. And I feel like in, in Europe, like if anyone works with the pelvis, they know about, uh, the Gaia Method. They may know about the prostatic portal but I feel like m- most people in the States, especially practitioners are still not as familiar. So I'm very, very excited to bring their work together, and I should share that, you know, in the five years of this podcast, both the episode with Susanne Roursgaard and Stine with her partner Asim have been the most downloaded and most listened to podcast. So it's really, really great to bring them together. So guys, I'm gonna read your bios and then let's get into it. Susanne Roursgaard has worked for-- she brings her 23 years as a midwife, to the work \[00:01:00\] that she's developed called the Gaia Method, which is really over 30 years of experience. Uh, it's a body-oriented modality that weaves together this intersection of soft de-armoring, which we'll get into, breathwork, sound, movement, energy work, and psychotherapy. A really unique kind of synergy and intersection of different disciplines regarding soma and the body. She draws from psychology, neuroscience, shamanism, tantra, and yoga, and she's a psychotherapist, a body-oriented trauma therapist, a family therapist, and sexologist specializing in sexual abuse, and the originator of the practice of soft de-armoring, an approach that doesn't push through the body's armor, but invites it to open, and we'll get more into that. Susanne trains practitioners all over the world and is based in Denmark, and again, I, I feel like everyone who works with the pelvis in Europe knows you, and I feel you're, like, the best-kept secret in the US, \[00:02:00\] which hopefully will no longer be after this podcast. Stine is a certified midwife, somatic therapist, integral sexologist, and a CI practitioner compassionate inquiry, helping bodies release what they've held for years and sometimes lifetimes. Through her practice, Amosoma, and as a co-creator of the prostatic portal she's become one of the field's most respected voices in male sexual health, prostate healing, and the intersection of emotional release and erotic aliveness. Her tagline, "The body remembers everything," says it all. She works in Denmark, and she brings a rare quality to her teachings, clinical precision grounded in profound compassion. Um, she's Zooming in in the midst of a training in Italy. Guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast together. This is very exciting for me. Yeah, I feel like every time either of you comes on as a guest in my course, \[00:03:00\] you know, the students are just wowed. And so I feel like the work that, that we do with the pelvis and w- you know, it's, it's work that everybody can benefit from, everybody gets fascinated about when they learn about it. But yet it's kind of this blind spot in human sexuality in mainstream culture. There's so much we can explore. But I thought as a jumping off point, you know, I love this tagline, "The body remembers everything," because it really does. I mean, every experience gets encoded in our somatic and cellular memory. And this shows up especially in intimacy, when we're being, you know, so tender with ourselves and our bodies. For listeners who may not be familiar with the concept of de-armoring, um, if each of you can share what you're actually touching into, whether it's physically, energetically what is it you're actually sensing and observing in the body and the pelvis that tells \[00:04:00\] you there's armor stored here? Do you wanna start Stine or do I go first? I go first. Well, so with the de-armoring, what I feel, it's very... De-armoring, first of all, for those that do not know it, it's very different from massage. It cannot be compared to massage. It's more of points, still points that you hold on to. And if the hands do move like it's moving and it looks like massage, it's never done with the purpose of massage. It's done to feel the energy layers, to feel where things are not moving or where they are moving. And it's something that usually takes time for a student to learn how to feel the energy. The de-armoring in itself holds a touch to the skin, and my method of soft de-armoring is a ultra-light touch. And what I'm turning in or tuning into is very much the fascial \[00:05:00\] layers. So I touch in ways that has to be so subtle because s- some of the new knowledge that are coming more and more up around the fascia is that the nervous system is running through the fascia, and if you can connect to the fascia, you actually connect to the nervous system. The nervous system speaks with the brain, helps the brain look, where do I need to release things? So it's a way of connecting into that fascia. But those are very, very thin sheets of tissue, and if you push just slightly too hard, you went past it. If you don't push enough or have enough connection, you're not in connection with it either. But when you do touch a de-armoring point and you manage to do what I call matching tone, it's like you have to find that exact still point where magic can happen. And when you find that, what I will feel is that the clear boundary between what was my \[00:06:00\] finger and what was the client's body sort of dissolves. I can no longer say exactly where I start and where they stop. So it's, it's like the whole felt sense of the tissue I touch suddenly grows very big, and I cannot really say where exactly I am. But de-armoring connects to the fascia on a physiological level. But other than that, it connects very much to the energy body. So the, Both the electrical part of the energy body that's linked to our nervous system, but also the more energy body that you would have the HeartMath Institute ... in California, for instance, investigating and doing research about. So it's also about connecting into that more esoteric body. Hmm. And then work on both layers. Beautiful. Beautiful. So yeah, what I'm, what I'm hearing you share, Susanne, is really underscoring that it's a sensing, and you're... It's almost like you're attuning to the communication that wants to \[00:07:00\] happen between your touch and you know, as you described, the kind of layers of fascia that's connected to the body's nervous system. It's almost like a communication you're attuning to between the nervous system through the fascia and your own soft de-armoring touch. I think that you can say that that's the first layer of learning, and then when you start getting more skilled, it's like there's also a consciousness part that comes in. Your capacity to focus and be consciously very present, but without an agenda. That's super important. Mm. That you're just curiously open, inviting what is without having any idea in your head what that should be. So the more- Mm ... let's say, blank I can be in my invitation, the more I actually give permission for the body to- Mm bring forth what truly is there. 'Cause energetically, we, we invite or don't invite. So it's very important that I'm, let's say, very aware of being a \[00:08:00\] blank sheet myself- ... and bringing in my heart, my compassion, my love, because that's the part that creates the safety for these parts that typically has been hiding themselves for a long time, for them to- Mm feel that there is a safe ground to, to, you know, start taking the head up and look around. Mm-hmm. So there's the physical aspect, and then there's also the very energetic. And the energetic aspect of the de-armoring reminds more of what you might hear people describe when they do Reiki work and other types of energy work. Mm. So that's sort of a different layer to it, so. Yeah. The... You know, I was gonna ask you about how soft soft de-armoring evolved. And I remember, you know, like in the other in the last podcast episode that we did, you know, you spoke about the ways that the body that is protecting itself out of its wisdom is often testing, uh, not only the practitioner but even the body owner, \[00:09:00\] to really gauge whether it can really trust the touch or the experience of de-armoring. And it, it sounds like you're speaking to that, that attunement. Yeah. Absolutely. The, the body will... we are the one that often overstepped our boundaries the most. More than other people did it to us. So it's not just that our body do not trust the world around us and people, we often don't even trust ourselves to, to, "Can I go in and look at this?" And also because often the body has been trying for years, sometimes even decades- Mm ... to communicate to us, but in a language that our cognitive brain doesn't understand. So we keep bypassing even though the body keeps saying, "Hey. Stop. Wait. Take a moment." So when we finally, let's say, turn around and we look at it and we say, "Oh, I'm listening," it's almost like it's a... You know, like if you imagine a good friend and you constantly not been there, and when you finally are there, they're like, "I don't believe you." Mm-hmm. Because you weren't there all the other times. What's \[00:10:00\] different this time? So there is often this element of creating trust again. The body needing to come back into to seeing that you're really there for it, and one of the ways can be by it literally testing you. Mm-hmm. Testing if you get annoyed, testing if you get angry, testing if you move on to something else if it doesn't give you on the spot what you maybe wanted. Yeah. It's so much like any hurt organism that is, n- needing to assure its, its own safety that some hurt doesn't happen again. Stine I'd love to ask you, can you discuss how soft arm- like, what it looks like and feels like for you as a practitioner in a session to facilitate de-armoring with soft de-armoring, whether it's, whether it's through prostate work or full body work, because I know you have a lot of experience with both? Um, so I, my session already \[00:11:00\] starts when the person walks into the room. I'm jo- noticing- Mm ... posture, I'm noticing the sound of their voice, I'm noticing their breath. So for me, it's really about, like, noticing and get curious about these small contractions that we can, we can observe in any person when they walk in the room. So I very much agree with Susanne that it's really gentle touch, and it's really about being curious, and go with your- Mm-hmm ... intuition what you already read about this body. And then letting go of, oh, they always carry this kind of trauma or emotion in this area of their body. No, it can show up anywhere. Really honoring the person's autonomy and, like, not being the wiser in this situation- Mm ... but just really being curious- ... and supporting them in finding those blocked areas, those micro-tensions, and then stay there- Mm ... with a lot of patience. And also what Susanne talks about, the safety. It's so \[00:12:00\] important- Mm to, to bring in the safety piece, and that you don't expect certain things of them, or you don't judge them, or all these things we can have going on. That we really try to be as clean as possible- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... that, that they can really allow themselves to go places that they haven't dared go before- ... or have felt before. Yeah, it's really profound, because both of you guys are echoing this blank sta- slate of being, of coming from pure curiosity, and really being in service of what the body is ready and feels safe enough to show, and holding that sacred space for it to emerge, rather than imposing something from the outside. Which is what really creates armor to begin with. I would love to explore, like, why the pelvic floor, why the pelvis and the genitals hold so much more than people realize. I feel like any human body, any pelvis can really be \[00:13:00\] astonished, illuminated, and, in a lot of situations, transformed from receiving a genital or pelvic de-armoring, more than people realize. Can you speak a little bit to, You know, like Susanne, I know in, in, in my class you've spoken about how up to 70% of genital armor happens before, like, age seven, you know, and has nothing to do with sexuality per se. Like psychologically, emotionally, and energetically, why do the genitals and pelvic floor and the prostate hold so much? I know it's a big question. It's like, this is- I mean, with this, that question could be like hours of discussion, but I feel like it's a good, it's an important baseline So w- if I, if I go with the, the perspective of the prostate, a lot of men- Yes ... that comes with issue with this prostate is that they've been to so many different kind of doctors, uh, practitioners, \[00:14:00\] physiotherapists, and there's this complete- Wow like, we don't touch genitals in our sessions - so already there we have so much cultural kind of, I don't know what, shadow shame about the genital area is not one that is appropriate to touch for healing. And then- Mm ... what do you do? Because I totally believe, like, one, zero to seven is very much, it's the foundation of the human body, basically. Like, it's this pelvic floor. It carries everything, and everything that is disturbed, contracted in this area will show up in the rest of our body, the rest of our system. So everything is, is kind of our foundation of being. Mm. And a lot of us do experience this different kind of disconnect. From zero to seven we were not heard, we were not seen, we were not allowed to express. All these things happen in those really, like we're really created emotionally, relational in this \[00:15:00\] time period. So- Mm-hmm ... all these things get stored down there. And there's this, yeah, avoidance of addressing it from a healing perspective. It's always, oh, it's also a sexual area, and what happens if we go touch there? Mm-hmm. Is it appropriate boundaries? All these things. Years ago, I would often refer to the genital de-armoring as sexual de-armoring, and I've stopped using that word together with, with pelvic de-armoring, genital de-armoring, because it gives people a wrong idea about what- Mm ... they're gonna find in that area, what we're gonna connect with. And even when people come to me and they come for something which is a sexological issue in their adult life, and it's linked to their genitals- Mm in the majority of the work, when we start diving into what's blocking them, what's not flowing, they will regress down to small children. And that can be anything from a baby to, you know, \[00:16:00\] typically up to the six, seven years of age. And it's not rare that people are somewhere between two and five when they- Mm regress back down. And they're often deeply shocked when they discover that, oh, but I came to you with this, you know, adult sexological issue. And then when we e- ended up really getting into the tissue, then it was like Stine said, it was this part of, you know, I was not accepted for who I was, or every time I had an opinion, I was told that, "No, no, no, that's not how the world is." Or, you know, if they had an emotion that was not household approved, then, you know, even if they were never told you can't have that emotion, everybody would immediately do, you know, a lot to get them to change their emotional state, which is also an indirect way of saying, "You might feel like that right now, but that part of you is not welcome." So we have- Mm ... so much of this we're not welcome the way we are, we're not accepted the way we are. Which we get in contact with when we do \[00:17:00\] work in the pelvic region. And I would say only between 10 and 20% of the genital work I do stay linked to a sexual or more adult sexuality aspect. It ends up becoming much more deep foundational psychological blockages, self-worth, lack of self-worth, the guilt, the shame and a lot of the negative inner voices that we create when we're small. You know, the, "I'm not good enough, I'm too much, I'm not lovable." That voice that we then spend our entire adult life disproving and making sure nobody ever sees about us. Mm-hmm. I'm really fascinated by this theme because to both of your points I'm fascinated by how adult clients come in wanting or thinking that it's a s- an issue around sexuality, and it's really a core wound that has to do more with their relationship with themself and the world, right? As you mentioned, whether it's not good enough \[00:18:00\] or I'm taking too long or, I'm not lovable, and how all of these themes show up in our sexuality. And so people, you know, understandably think it's about sex, but it's really... it go, it goes back to those initial touch and relational imprints from when we're very, very young. I find that so fascinating. I'm... I imagine that... I imagine your clients get blown away, you know, 'cause they think they're coming in wanting to have their first orgasm or, feel more sensation, and then they realize it's like a totally different... the, the core wound is a totally different thing that's showing up in other areas of their life. I'm wondering Stine, I wanted to ask, you know, with prostate work what do you find that most people, including practitioners, have no idea regarding prostate work and get really blown away by? So I think what I, I try to teach in the \[00:19:00\] prosthetic portal is this actually the similarity between the male and the female body related to the prostate. That there's actually more research done on the female genital a- area inside around the cervix, clitoris, and stuff than there is done- Mm ... around the prostate. You can't really find-- There are some anecdotal s- uh, studies regarding an orgasmic pleasurable sensation from your prostate, but it's not anything that's been confirmed by, like, bigger scientific studies of any kind. So I think what is they are most blown away is that it is quite similar, at least is what I claim, is that to the connection to the way the cervix is connected to the vagus nerve is similar in the way that the prostate-- That the wiring is very similar between the uterus and the prostate. I think a lot of people- Mm ... get quite surprised by that. And the other thing that I think a lot of people, especially maybe male practitioner and \[00:20:00\] also people receiving prostate sessions, is the level of surrender that it- Mm ... needs to be explored before going to the more pleasurable and that expansive state that the prostate can give you, and how rewarding it can be for the man and even for couples if they dare to go to that space where the man actually allows himself to be completely held by somebody else in a surrender state. That often comes- Mm ... like quite a surprise because a lot of men is very wired in a performance state regarding their sexuality, uh, and with partners. Right, right. So I wanna touch on this 'cause the circumstances and the space that allows for a man who may be, used to being in the role of a provider, protector, or kind of the doer, uh, this, the, this, the space that require- that is required for a man to surrender, \[00:21:00\] and, you know, going back to Susanne's point, how so many of these core wounds happen when we're very, very young. I wanna ask a little bit about the Gaia Method and the space holding. What m- what... Like, the elements that are really, really needed to come with a blank slate, to come in service of what the body's ready to reveal of itself for these, you know, very, very tender and sometimes pre-verbal childhood wounds to come to the surface. What would you say are the specific elements that create the body to really surrender and let go in that way? And if, uh, Susanne, you can touch a little bit about the Gaia Method's approach of space holding and how it's distinct. Yeah. So, so, well, they go hand in hand because if we're talking about this surrendering into daring as a receiver daring for things to happen- Mm-hmm and it's not something that's, uh, we're \[00:22:00\] not talking about in your home situation when you're with yourself, but when you, for instance, go for sessions, their space holding is key. It's... and space holding is key in the sense of- How much can a practitioner sit with without judging it? How much can a practitioner handle somebody going through emotional states without them being affected because they find it uncomfortable for themselves? So it also means that for the practitioner, you need to be able to really hold emotions within yourself, the scope of emotions. Managing how to sit and be in peace with your emotions, even when it's anger. Can you hold anger without having to explode, for instance? And the more you can hold these energies, the more there is a permission energetically in the space. And that allows clients to sort of drop in, sink in, because it, it starts feeling \[00:23:00\] safe that no matter what I'm going to do, I can feel that you're not judging me. And this is where the testing of the body sometimes come in. You know, when- Mm ... when you do some work and the body doesn't respond at all the way it might normally do to this. Almost like the body is testing, are you gonna show yourself as a practitioner to be impatient? Are you gonna get annoyed or are you gonna get insecure? Mm. A sign that you start you losing your faith in yourself because I wasn't doing what you maybe expected. So there can be these subtle ways the body tries to test the cl- the practitioner, which is part, again, of the body trying to see how safe are you for me. Are you so safe I can go to the edge of a cliff, and I can lean over it and look down, and still trust that if I go, "Ooh, doo, doo, no, no, no, this is too much. I wanna back down," that you're not gonna be like, "Oh, you're almost there. Push." So it's also this thing that the body feels that, like Stine said, \[00:24:00\] we're walking with them. We're not- Mm ... dragging them along. We're not pushing them along. So that it's safe for the body to, and the person- To go and explore everywhere because if they wanna go further, they can get the safety that you're gonna follow. You're gonna be there with them. Mm. And if they wanna backtrack and say, "Woo, you know, that water was a little too cold for me. I'm taking my foot out of the water again," or, "It's too f- hot a fire," then they also have the safety to feel that even that will be accepted- Mm ... without any pressure pushing or this, uh, space where the client might feel "I was weak before because I did it." So that- Mm ... we can also maintain that help them know that even retrieving sometimes means strength. Mm-hmm. Retrieving is not always a sign that, you know, oh my God, you failed. You couldn't do it. No, you actually retrieving right now, you're showing your body, "Hey, I'm listening. I heard \[00:25:00\] you say wait, and I'm waiting with you, and maybe we can go in five minutes. Maybe it's not today, and that's okay." So the space holding is part of this element, but it's also elements of, first of all, as a practitioner, that let's say it's in, in retreat settings, that there's absolutely zero intimacy between facilitators, team members and participants. Because in some- Mm ... in some environment, especially when they go more in the tantric direction, you can often have this murky space between participants and s- and facilitators and team members. And for me, that's an absolute no-go because it needs- Mm ... to be so safe for anyone to know that no matter why I connect with a facilitator or team member, I know they're not trying to get something from me themselves. They're just here as my service, uh- Mm ... person. And for that, the space holding needs to also have very \[00:26:00\] clear sexual boundaries between practitioners and whoever is receiving. And- Mm-hmm ... so that's another side of space holding, And then calmness. Slow down. And then when you- Mm ... think you've slowed down, then you slow down a little more. Uh- Mm. As- because that's that window that invites what wants to come up. But that space holding is where we as practitioners can get confronted. When we sit there for a long time and nothing happens, mm. How long can we sit and still feel centered, at peace, strong, confident, calm? Mm. This is really- Mm ... that, that's a very important muscle to train as a practitioner. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, as you're, as you were sharing that, Susanne, I just had this kind of image of the clients, whether it's a retreat setting or in a session, it's like their purest, most \[00:27:00\] innocent youngest part is is it safe enough for that part to show up, and so what... the point you raise around, you know, certain tantra related retreats, they're mixing sexual healing with, with murky boundaries, and that doesn't make it safe for the young infant to play naked, in, in the river, you know, or w- or whatever this, the situation is metaphorically. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I wanna, I- y- I mean, there's so many kind of pathways we can go but I would love to touch upon the role that breath and sounding, the breathwork and sounding w- when it comes to de-armoring and w- the role that that you, that each of you facilitate in your sessions and in the work that you do together, you know, with de-armoring, how important that is. And yeah, let's touch upon that because I also wanna provide some practical examples or tools to listeners to practice some kind of, a, an \[00:28:00\] example of a breath or a sounding that, that they can just try, tonight with their lover or, you know, after they listen to this podcast so that it's, you know, there's something practical as well. So since Stine also does a lot with breath, then you can do breath, I do sound? Yeah. It's- um, so, so how I work with breath, I already shared that I really observe a lot about the breath. Just when they talk to me in the intake, when they just lay down on the mattress just to land f- before we start the session, I notice how deep their breath goes. Because we do have these- Hmm ... kind of membranes in our bodies. There's one in, there's many, but there's one in the neck, and then solar plexus, of course, and then the pelvic floor is also a diaphragm that can move up and down. So these are linked. So then I really observe how deep can the breath go through these membranes, and these are almost like portals- Hmm ... like gates between the different energy centers. So in that \[00:29:00\] sense, I try to really use the breath to, to, to bring awareness, a connection to the felt sense in the body. Because I think it's the, it's one of the strongest tool to build between the mind and the body, is the breath. Because we can somewhat- Hmm ... control the breath with our mind, but we can access, like- Mm-hmm ... deeper felt sense, deeper layers in the body if we start directing the breath into different areas of our body. So it can be when we do the, the dearmoring touch, that we just really have our finger lightly, as Susanne says, on these layers, and we actually ask them to, to dir- direct their breath to this area where they feel a certain tension or emotion or whatever's coming up in that area. And then kind of, I- Hmm usually, I guide them into, "Can you expand that area with your breath? Just like you can expand your belly or you can open your chest when you breathe, can you go there?" And then I, I usually have this phrase of \[00:30:00\] like, "Please, like, breathe, like, space into the area so it can express itself on your in breath." Hmm. "And on the exhale, listen." To what it wants to express. So that could be something that people can try if they feel, "I have this tension in my shoulder for so long." Can you actually, with your breath guiding to whatever tension you feel in your body, start communicating with it, listening to what it has to tell, tell you? And this is really about slowing down, sending the breath, expansion, listening, and then see if any expression comes up in that, in connecting with this area of your body. So that's a very simple way of saying it. Mm. And then when we work with the pelvic floor, we have a specific breath where we really breathe into our pelvic floor. A lot of people that go to yoga or different classes, they, they knew the belly breath, like to take the breath all the way down to your belly. But another exploration is can you move that breath all the way \[00:31:00\] down to the lowest diaphragm in your body, and like expand it from the inside out? Because so many of us have a lot of tension from stress, so it's usually, our pelvic floor is usually constantly a bit contracted. So how would it be to- Mm ... explore the complete opposite of full expansion of your pelvic floor instead of a full, like, contraction? Mm-hmm. Yeah, beautiful. So breath itself is you know, a de-armoring tool. You're using the breath to move into areas that may have been contracted and armored. Yeah, and, and the breath, I would also use the breath in looking at how their moment-to-moment breathing is, and if their breath pattern is not how it physiologically should be, and I'm dealing with someone with trauma, for instance, then I'll be very aware of if they have shallow breathing, if they have many breaths a \[00:32:00\] minute. People that are in a chronic fight, flight, and freeze state, they will have a very hard time moving out of that trauma space that their body's nervous system is held in when they're basically what's called over-breathing. That means that you breathe too often and too fast. So on a minute to minute, you actually get too many liters of volume of air into your lungs, and that will keep your nervous system alert all the time. So if they have a breath pattern like that, and I don't address that, I can be doing de-armoring from now on until the day they die because- Mm ... their breath pattern is actually holding them in that state of fear and fight. Mm. So, so it's also about looking at, do they need to start working with their big moment-to-moment breath? Do they need to expand their tolerance to CO2? Because when your tolerance to CO2 is too low, you will have tendency to fear and panic attack, for instance. So it's \[00:33:00\] also about looking at breath like that to look at if they have alternated their breath so much since they were born that what they conceive or perceive as a natural, normal breath is actually not a natural, normal breath. It's a trauma breath, and it's- Mm ... it's holding them in that trauma cycle. So that's another way to bringing in the breath in the work. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fascinating, isn't it, how the breath reveals the state of our nervous system- ... and how the breath pattern can become so chronic that keeps us in that s- in that nervous system state, whether it's fight or flight. Yeah. What would you say about sounding and your use of sounding in- So- ... the dearming process? So the sound can be used... well, sound is frequency and, and everything we do in dearming actually deals with frequency. When you have a blockage in the body, it means that that vibrational level that tissue should have is out of tune with its own vibration. So when we're doing dearming, we're changing the \[00:34:00\] vibration level back to its normal attunement to itself. Mm-hmm. Mm. And we can, and we can do that with touch. You can do that with energy work, but you can do it with sound as well. And the sound has the benefit that it usually bypasses all people's defense mechanisms because- Mm it's just sound, right? What can it do? Mm. And also because the sound when you're sounding, if you are the one sounding, you'll be activating your vocal cords. And your vocal cords and the other end of the vocal cords is basically around your prostate and your cervix. So that means that you connect to your genitals through the sounding, and when it starts relaxing up here, there will become a relaxation in the other end as well. So you can indirectly start helping relaxation coming in. And then also when you're using sound, sound is an amplifier for whatever is happening. So when people are holding sound in, it's like turning the volume down. Whereas if you \[00:35:00\] allow sound, even if it's just a it doesn't have to be big sounds. But just the fact that you allow sound, it helps amplify the work that's happening. Mm-hmm. And if you're someone with a brain that's always chit-chatting and it's in the way it sh- it shuts down the talking brain. Mm. So it's also a way to minimize that by having sounding. But if you use it in sessions or not... But when you use it in sessions- I will usually sound on the specific tissue that I work on. Sometimes I'll have them sound as well, but sometimes I'm the one applying the sound, and it can be from my voice, but it can also be that I choose to use tuning forks that has a specific frequency that I'm interested in. Mm. Or it could be Tibetan singing bowls. I would normally- ... never use crystal bowls for it, and that's because they're p- too pure toned. Oh. Because a crystal bowl has, like, one frequency more or less, and \[00:36:00\] the Tibetan singing bowls, they have overtones, undertones. So even if your tone, your bowl is not the exact right frequency, it has hundreds if not thousands of frequencies that it's vibrating at the same time. Which means- Mm ... that there's a much bigger chance that that one will actually have something that resonates and matches what you're looking for. Yeah. Fascinating. That is so cool. Okay. So I really, I wanna shift gears and you guys are, are bringing your collective experience and wisdom together. I wanna know what excited you guys about So you're bringing this together in a training. I would love to, for you guys to tell us about this training, and the elements in the training. Like, what excited you about what you're bringing to this training? Because w- from what I see, it's unlike anything out there. I mean, it's a really yeah, I mean, it's so thorough. Seven modules. You're doing, you're really educating, giving them, hands-on experience. \[00:37:00\] I, uh, h- how did it come together and, and what excites you about it? So the training is an advanced Gaia Method training that I knew I, I was gonna put it up. And when I started sitting there writing about it, I was like, first of all, I would love to not do the teaching all by myself, and then I wanted to go much deeper on the male body. Mm-hmm. And Stine has been relating to me for years. She's one of my assistants as well, but next to her own work. Mm-hmm. And she has gone what I usually joke and say PhD nerdy on, on nerd on the prostate even if she doesn't have the PhD degree to show for it, but it's literally what she's done in her research. So when I di- decided to have this, training, I asked Stine, I said, "I would really love to bring you in as a co-teacher so that-" Mm. "... because you have your field of expertise here where you can really dive deep." And we have one more teacher coming in as well, who's, uh, deep into the female \[00:38:00\] body on pelvic issues and pain and numbness and so on. Um, so for me, it was about bringing this in and Where Stine was mentioning also this thing of, using your intuition in your work, and that, that is one of the elements that this training is about. It's about bringing that other leg that is not intuition. Because we see a lot of people in the genital healing field that are amazing at working with intuition. But especially in the more alternative field, the more, let's call it hardcore, um, sound knowledge about anatomy, about the nervous system, about the, Mm ... physiology, about the functionality of the body. The more, uh, medical knowledge that both Stine and I bring in with our midwife backgrounds- those are often elements that people are lacking in this field. And especially when you work with genital dysfunctions for instance. That could be a man who comes to you and he's got erectile \[00:39:00\] dysfunction- You have the issue sometimes that practitioner's "Great, I can work with you with that." And then they work with someone, but they didn't know that erectile dysfunction could be a very early sign of cancer. Mm. Or that you're gonna die of a heart attack in five years if you're not gonna have a treatment. Or that- Mm ... you have diabetes. And that means that that man before you worked on him should actually have been sent to the doctor first to the, you know, and, and have his, blood, uh, sugars tested and, maybe have his PSA numbers checked for prostate cancer, and also check that his blood pressure is fine. And when all these things are good, yep, great, come to me and I'll work with you. So, so I felt that there was a need of bringing in to the more alternative field that this touch directly on the genitals is. Mm. Mm. But that field has amazing capacities on its own, just like the medical field has amazing capacities on its own. But it's a \[00:40:00\] bit about let's start merging the knowledge of the two- Yes ... where they're relevant. Mm. And also 'cause when you have knowledge to why you do things you start becoming capable of replicating your work because you start- Yeah ... understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it. And when you see an impact, your brain can go, "Ah, that, okay, that means da, da, da, da, da was happening." Mm-hmm. So you get a, a broader scope of information to, to, uh, use in your work also for future clients, so it doesn't become these stories of, "I had this client, and it was amazing. He had such a great outcome." "What did you do?" "I don't know, 'cause it was intuitive." Mm. So because that's beautiful, but it's also so very beautiful when we can replicate what we do by having some knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So for me, that was an important factor that I really wanted to bring in more sound education also of knowing these things. I mean, one of the things we do in the training in the practical part is that we ha- spend \[00:41:00\] time on palpation. Really getting practitioners to be very solid inside when they're touching, to not just know what the anatomy map looks like, but that their- Mm fingers recognize it as well when they're touching it. Yeah. That is so comprehensive and beautiful. I love the bridge that you guys are creating because I love... like we started this conversation talking about how you've got to be a blank slate and really allow the nervous system of the client to feel safe to meet your touch, which it sounds very like instinctual and intuitive, but you're also bringing the very, you know, necessary understanding of the body, the anatomy, how things work, you know, how diseases form. So it really is-- it's you're creating a bridge between these two worlds. I love that. I wonder Stine, when when Susanne reached out to you to bring the knowledge of the prosthetic portal and all of the, you know, experiences \[00:42:00\] you've had with the male pelvis, like how did it, how did it sound to you, and what is it that you're bringing from your... the prosthetic portal into this Gaia Method training? Yeah, it's funny because as Susanne mentioned, I'm one of her assistants, but I also used to be one of her students. So it was first it was a little bit like- Mm ... "Ooh. Oh, okay. C- can ... can I do that?" Can I- Mm ... can I, can I co-teach with my co-teacher? But it was very brief- Uh-huh ... moment I had that. And then, then the other moment I was like, "Sure, I can do that. That's gonna be amazing," you know? Mm. And, and I think what we experienced when we did it the first time is w- there was, there was an amazing flow in it. It just worked. Mm. So, so in that way- Mm the intuition was great. And it makes me really, really happy that we do, offer more safety. I know sometimes safety- Mm-hmm ... can be kind of an illusion, but we really wanna bring more safety in for the \[00:43:00\] practitioners so, so they can even once in a while maybe say, "Hey," asking all these questions, get an idea and say, "I'm not the right practitioner for you. You need to go and get this done." So we really take care of our- Yeah ... clients better and that we don't do stuff that we can actually create harm instead of healing. And also for the clients- Yeah ... that they can really go to somebody really confident and competent with integrity because that's also- Mm-hmm something we ... Because it is a murky field, sexual healing, and there is practitioner out there that is not fully clear on how to interact with other people's sexual energy and what is my sexual energy doing them. And so that's also something that we, we take the practitioner through in this training. Can you contain and block off your own sexual energy when you work with somebody else's arousal and sexual energy? Because a lot of stuff can happen here that is in very in a shadowy area. We don't know what is \[00:44:00\] happening- Mm-hmm ... and how we connect with our clients, but we need to be 100% aware of what is happening So that's really something we wanna bring in there as well Yeah. So in, in the live training we train them in consciously being able to open and close their sexual energy flow like it's a tap water. Mm-hmm. And they're getting instant feedback on whether or not they do it. So when they- Mm ... open, then there's someone receiving that constantly feedback "Nope. Yeah. Open. Closed. No." So you really get to also experience within yourself whether or not you actually do it. But also a lot of- Mm ... people don't know that it's to open and, and close the sexual flow energy from ourselves. For a lot of us, it's not necessarily like, "Oh, I do it." It's a specific inner energetic sensation that we have within our own body when we're either, let's say, leaking sexual energy. Because if it's in a session- Mm ... and it's not part of the \[00:45:00\] session, it's leaking. But we might not even know that that sensation I sometimes feel that just feels like energy moving in me, my body- Mm ... that that's actually what other people perceive as, "Hey, you're flooding me with your sexual energy." "And I'm not, I'm not asking for that. I'm not even agreeing to that." So they get this instant feedback so they get to learn, "Ah, this is what it feels like when I'm shutting it off. This is what it feels like when I'm like, it's welcome to be part of the tool case in this session." Mm-hmm. Because in some sessions it can be an a welcome tool case. If you're working with someone that needs to learn or wish to learn to expand their arousal or how to feel pleasure, then sometimes it can be an imprint you give to someone what it even feels like when sexual energy flows through your body. So they, when they start working deeper with themselves, even have a sense of, "What am I even looking for?" Because now I've- Mm-hmm ... felt it, so I can recognize it when I start feeling it within my own \[00:46:00\] capacity. Yeah. I feel like these elements are so, critical to the safety that a client feels, whether it's conscious or unconscious, and it's, it's really absent in most trainings I've attended. The most trainings I've attended focus on the skills, the somatic techniques, you know, all of that. But the ... You know, when we're talking about the safe container, the intention and, and how much, the leaking and the d- what's in the unconscious of the practitioner contributes to, you know, how safe and how young a nervous system is willing to go to to be healed. Yeah, it really ... I mean, it's amazing. Um- I mean, when we did the first training, we had put everything into one training, and then we came out- Wow ... and we were like that was a lot." Yeah. So we were like, "Okay, we need to separate it," and that's why with this version here the this time- We \[00:47:00\] decided, no, we need to have a three-month container where we have seven modules, where we have two modules a month. We have an, a monthly a Q&A for the students where they can come with the questions of this material. Mm. They can, you know, go through it. They can revisit the live teachings because they will be, of course in a teaching platform. And then when we come together in February next year, then at that point, all that, let's say, more hardcore theory and sort of baseline theory- Mm and understanding of the theoretical. And that's not just the theoretical on a body level because I will also be teaching into sexual abuse and what it means when you have early childhood sexual abuse, how does that display itself in a client? What if it's adult sexual abuse? How does that display itself? So because there's different working with those two groups. So we'll also be bringing in a lot of deep specialized trauma knowledge, Mm-hmm ... that are related to genital \[00:48:00\] trauma or throat trauma if it's sexual trauma. And, you know, yeah, so we decided we have to do that so that when we come together live, now we can dive straight into the hands-on and really utilize that we have bodies we can practice on now. We don't spend a lot of time now on theory. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really so comprehensive. I was just looking over, the modules from, the nitty-gritty of the pelvic and genital anatomy to the advanced soft dearming protocols that we've discussed to, a whole section on the psoas as a psychoemotional and sexual organ, which is really, really fascinating. Can you just touch upon why the psoas deserves its own module? Because it does. Like, how did that come ... H- had you always had that, like, in the, in the one with everything in it and, and, um, I think the Tibetans call the psoas the muscle of the soul or something \[00:49:00\] to that effect, you know. S- seed, seed of the soul. Seed of the soul. Yeah. Yeah. So I work a lot with the psoas, um, and I, I think I- Uh-huh ... I started getting the skills very much as a midwife. So there's this old ancient- Mm ... um, modality called rebozo, ... cerón, where the Mexican, uh, midwives were kind of pendulating the psoas muscle that is very much part of the containment of the uterus and stuff like that. And underneath that, there's- Hmm ... the whole theory of TRE, the polyvagal theory- Yes ... the vagus nerve. Like how- Hmm ... the, the psoas muscle for me as a, is an expression of our nervous system. It is the muscle that is providing us the fight, flight, freeze responses. So a lot of these- Mm-hmm ... uh, like trauma blockages, tensions are coded into our psoas on a very, very early stage. And I don't believe that the psoas can be directly mani- manipulated with massage or trigger point techniques to release \[00:50:00\] its whatever tension it's holding because it's actually j- only the messenger. It's only telling, "Hey- Hmm ... I'm alert." So we need to kind of go behind that and look at what is creating this alertness. So we need to, like, indirectly work with the psoas. So it's, it's mostly about, it's breath, but it's also this penduling. So we've g- actually bringing in rebozo as a technique in the training as well, how can you use that one to kind of penduling the system and understand how that affects the, actually the whole being. It's connecting- Mm-hmm ... everything. There, and like in, in- Hmm ... some of the embry- embryology research on psoas, there are strains of the psoas muscles up in our necks Wow. Wow, fascinating. Really, really cool. Guys, how can people find out about this coming, upcoming training and also your individual work? The, \[00:51:00\] the upcoming training, the easiest way is probably for people to go on the landing page because the landing page- Mm ... will take them through like a lot of the information, uh- Mm-hmm ... on the training. And it will also allow them to see a, a info call night Stine and I had where we're speaking more into it in detail. That one is also up, on a button you click on the landing page. And that landing page will take people straight to where they need to connect if they're interested. If people are outsiders, which means that they're not already a Gaia Method practitioner, then they need to have a conversation with either Stine- Mm or me first. And that's also- Mm-hmm ... because this is an advanced sexuality practitioner tr- uh, training, which means that we don't take people into this training that doesn't have any previous training or hands-on experience or clinical experience with it. 'Cause we wanna make sure \[00:52:00\] that when we get together, we don't have to start at the bottom layer with basic things. So that even people- Sure ... that are already in the field feeling like, "Yeah, I'm good at what I'm doing, but it's like I, I need that next level." That's really- Mm-hmm ... what we want to bring. Um- Mm-hmm ... and, and outsiders will then have a conversation of about 45, 60 minutes with either Stine or me, where we look at, you know, do they have the right knowledge or background? Mm. Are they a good fit? And also are we a good fit for them? They get- ... to ask their questions and, and see. Mm-hmm. And if, if they're a good fit, then those students that come from the outside, they will get an additional 45 pages material, which is- Mm ... an excerpt of my fundamental practitioner training, uh, manual. Like all our- ... things comes with big compendiums. So this here is- It's amazing ... for the advanced. And we have a similar size for adv- the fundamental practitioner. Mm. But they will get the part of my practitioner knowledge that \[00:53:00\] they don't have, which is important- ... for them to really be able to step in here. And then they're asked to do some practice sessions with the points that we're using so that- Mm ... they know when they come to us, okay, these are the points, um- Mm-hmm ... because they've done some at home. Yeah. Cool. And where can people find that landing page? Do they go to the Gaia Method? They can go to the Gaia Method, or I can send you the link for it as well, and you can also add it- Sure to your information as well. Yeah. But definitely- Yes. Yeah ... on the Gaia Method. Okay. So in the show notes, there'll be a link to the landing page, but for people who are just listening and won't go to the show notes page, you can go to the-gaia, G-A-I-A, -method.com- Yes ... and look for the landing page there. Yeah. Um, and Susanne, you have... You're so prolific. You have so many trainings coming up- ... you know, uh, of various, you know, like lengths and levels. And everyone can find everything that you \[00:54:00\] offer also on the-gaia-method.com as well, yes? Not everything 'cause I'm currently redoing- Oh ... my webpage. Oh, gosh. Okay. So there is more to the Gaia Method work for practitioners than what you can see on the webpage. There's more to it than that. Yeah. Amazing. So people can just reach out to you if they wanna know more. They can reach out. Yeah. Okay. And Stine Ammosoma and The Prosthetic portal are those the two best ways to reach you? Yeah, but can I just add about Susanne? Susanne both has trainings- Yeah but she also has retreats, so that's also important. Ah. So if you're not a practitioner, but you're just really, really curious about de-armoring as a private person or you wanna bring your partner, she has also retreats that you can go on and try on your own body and, like, learn the basics of these skills. So I just wanted to add that. And otherwise- Yeah ... yeah, you can go to theprostheticportal.com. So there I have information about practitioners, and also I do \[00:55:00\] also a practitioner training for people that also have some kind of body work background, but they really wanna specialize more working with male genitalia and the prostate. And actually, also people that do join the sexually advanced training that me and Susanne do together, if they wanna certify fully as a Prosthetic Portal practitioner, they can have that as an add-on for not, not a big... great big cost. But just- That's amazing ... there's a certification process because I really wanna have more certified practitioner out there in the world. There's a limit to how many prostates I can touch, so but that's, that's quite amazing. They can complete the advanced Gaia Method sexuality training, and w- and with a supplement also become certified in, a- as a prosthetic portal practitioner. I would love to add something because I always forget it- Yeah when I'm asked to share. And like I said, my webpage isn't updated. So I do have an online female community where \[00:56:00\] I guide- Mm ... through sexuality, embodying the female body practices, and there will be a 21-day challenge coming up in July where I'll be guiding for 21 days. And then from August, I'm launching a female membership club where I'm gonna start on an ongoing basis training women in really getting more embodied with their body in all aspects of, "This is my body, I'm happy about it." But very much- Mm ... around also getting the juiciness of the tissue and the functionality and the orgasmic side. And there will, in the next year, be more things launched specifically for the female body from my side because it is an area where I have a lot of knowledge, and I don't really share it. So I'm being called to do that. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad that's gonna happen, Susanne. I feel like you're such a-- I mean, both of you are such deep wells of knowledge and experience from all of your years working with bodies, and it's what... it's the medicine the world needs more and more. \[00:57:00\] Great. So all of those links will be in the show notes as well as, um, yeah, anything else that we've talked about. Thank you guys so much for doing the work you do and sharing it with the world. I'm excited for this collaboration and seeing it unfold. Thank you for having us. It was lovely to come and speak with you again. Yes. Always great to see you guys- Thank you so much for- ... to speak with you ... yeah, for broadcasting these things. You're such a beautiful channel, and I just enjoy when you reflect back what you s- what we're saying. To hear it through your words, it's, uh, it's... Oh, I love it. Thank you so much. You're so welcome. You're so welcome. I, I concur. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![Promo banner for a free 16-minute Genital Breathing Meditation with The Genital Awakening Checklist and the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/GenitalBreathingPodShownotes.jpg "GenitalBreathingPodShownotes | Rahi Chun") *Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember.* ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) ###### Plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexual Healing **Tags:** Psoas, Rahi Chun, Sexual Healing, soft de-armoring, Stine Krage, Susanne Roursgaard, The Gaia Method, The Prostatic Portal --- ### [Erotic Sovereignty, Cervical Awakening & Sex Work Truth (with Ariel Szabo)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) **Published:** February 26, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** From trauma and numbness to cervical awakening and erotic sovereignty, Ariel Szabo explores how reclaiming pleasure restores voice, power, and embodied truth. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # Erotic Sovereignty, Cervical Awakening & Sex Work Truth ### *with Ariel Szabo* # ### ### ## In This Episode We explore erotic sovereignty, cervical awakening, and the realities of sex work through an embodied lens. You’ll learn how power, pleasure, and truth intersect in sexuality. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/3.png "pstr_TSR_about_2 | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) About Our Guest: Ariel Szabo is a writer, somatic sex educator, and sacred plant facilitator devoted to the reclamation of erotic sovereignty. Her work lives at the intersection of trauma healing, plant medicine, sexuality, power, and cultural transformation. Through her Substack *The Erotic Frontier*, private mentorship, practitioner trainings, and international retreats, Ariel invites individuals, couples & groups into embodied pleasure, radical self-honesty, and deep relational attunement. Her personal journey spans experiences in sex work, survival and healing from trafficking, years of somatic training, and extensive work with plant medicines in both the United States and Peru. . At the heart of Ariel’s work is a simple but radical devotion: that when we reclaim our erotic energy with integrity, presence, and voice, we don’t just transform our relationships — we transform our lives. Full Disclosure: Ariel and I first met 5 lifetimes ago…. :). In this lifetime, I’ve been blessed to co-create a life and lifestyle of transparency, personal growth, joy, health, pleasure, service and the evolution of consciousness. Professionally, I continue to learn from all of the ways her life experiences have nourished her rich understandings of humanity, and the nature of our nature – piercing the veils of what appears on the surface. ### Ariel’s links: [SacredMoonflower](https://www.sacredmoonflower.com/) [Substack: The Erotic Frontier](https://arielszabo.substack.com/) [Divine Union For Lovers](https://divineunionforlovers.com/) ## What You’ll Learn About Erotic Sovereignty & Cervical Awakening $ How reclaiming authentic sexual energy after trauma can lead to erotic sovereignty & sexual embodiment. $ How embodied safety and reclaiming one’s voice can open new dimensions of sensations, cervical awakening & deep pleasure activation. $ How Ayahuasca & plant medicines can play a pivotal role for sexual healing, nervous system repair, and erotic reclamation $ How somatic practices for rebuilding sensation can transform genital sensations from numbness to pleasure. $ The critical distinction for trauma survivors between Embodied vs Escapist Pleasures. $ How cultural conditioning shapes our experiences of intimacy and relational dynamics of power over vs power with. $ Clarifying the myths, stigmas, systemic harm and important distinctions between Sex Work vs Sex Trafficking. $ How policy impacts safety and autonomy with the decriminalization of Sex Work. $ How speaking your erotic truth and inviting sexual visibility can influence nervous system safety. $ The connections between sexuality, creativity, and purpose, in addition to using pleasure as a compass for tracking your life force. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to Your Body Remembers Pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources at RahiChun.com. And now, Let's begin. today's episode, I'm joined by Ariel Szabo, writer, somatic sex educator, and the voice behind the erotic frontier for a conversation at the edge of culture, trauma healing, cervical awakening, plant medicine, and erotic sovereignty. Now in full transparency, Ariel is my beloved in life, and this interview was actually intended to test a new recording platform. But as you'll see, the material exploring how voicing your sexual truth can lead to cervical awakening, the journey from numbness to sensation, how our societal systems suppress our sexual embodiment, as well as insights about sex work, decrim, and trafficking, made this one of the juiciest and informative interviews to date. Enjoy. Ariel, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today. Ariel, for our listeners to understand your personal journey, when you look back, was there like a specific turning point when you realized that erotic embodiment could be the doorway to the transformation of personal and collective consciousness? Thanks so much for having me here. Yeah. And there's a couple of turning points that that question brings me to. The first turning point, which was sort of me like opening the door, but then it got shut with a lot of confusion pretty quickly, was when I first felt called to get into sex work and I became a stripper. And there were many different things that brought me there, but one of them was a very wise part of me that understood how... much wisdom there is in connecting to our sexuality, the power of our sexual energy and the capacity it has to transform us. There are a lot of reasons that I wasn't really to fully open that doorway at that moment in time. Now, fast forward many years later, and it was in plant medicine journeys with ayahuasca that I was really fully able to open that door and step through it. It was the first time that I... really was able to fully connect with my authentic sexual energy and feel it surge and move through my body and live in every step. Wow, wow, that's so profound. So it sounds like early on in your journey, you were drawn to being a dancer and that was a way for you to, it was like a platform for you to explore the erotic embodiment and the life force. And later on it was through plant medicines. you, know, for lot of our audience have probably experienced plant medicines. Some have probably not. When you speak about how like all of your cells were infused with this energy. What happened from there? Like how was your ayahuasca journey and your relationship with the plants a catalyst for you to really like reclaim your erotic embodiment? Yeah. So, you know, before I started working with plant medicine, there was a lot blocking me from really actually being able to connect with this energy because I had, you know, I had couplings living in my system of like danger coupled with sexual energy. There was so much fear. There was so much shame. had a long history of sexual trauma and I had not... been able to really fully, really open the gateway to all the grief and the shame that lived in me. And plant medicine supported me in accessing it in ways that other therapies had not yet really been able to support me in doing. So once I had access to all the grief, the shame, and had enough tools and capacity and support I needed at that point in time to actually feel it, ⁓ then once that moved, Yeah then I could start feeling pleasure moving through my body without like just so much fear blocking me or something else coming in. Wow. So this is really actually a very profound point. It sounds like the couplings you mentioned were preventing you from a full embodiment of your pure erotic energy. And those couplings involved guilt and shame as a result of past sexual traumas. So I feel like what you're sharing is so important that it sounds like the plant medicines allowed you to really do a deep dive and feeling those feelings. that previously maybe were not very accessible through different forms of therapy. Is that accurate? that's completely accurate. And there was something too about connecting so deeply with the plant world that allowed me to repair the original fracture I had from nature, just growing up in the society I grew up in and the community I grew up in where I wasn't so connected to nature, which also made a disconnection from my body. Coming into this like deep, intimate connection with the plants, which also felt safer to me than people at that moment in my life. really allowed me to start like exploring not just what is it like to feel pleasure and connection with myself and my own body with all my different parts of my being but also with another being, playing. Yes, yes. Wow, this is really fascinating because, you know, what you're speaking to is the safety that connecting with your sexuality involving live organism in this instance, the form of plants, was much safer for you than relating with your sexuality with other human beings. And as well, it sounds like it was a way of you returning to the nature of your body as you're returning to the nature of our macrocosm. Yeah. Yeah, and I really carried that practice over, you know, a lot of people call it ecosexuality for years, just like connecting with trees, connecting with the ocean, connecting with the wind, with the earth, and having very erotic, very orgasmic experiences with all of these beings and entities. Wow, that sounds so beautiful and so like, just so natural. I have a question for you and that is, you know, as you were going through this profound, you know, exploration and sensitive reawakening of your sexuality through the support and guidance of the plant medicines, were you, was it like an intuitive unfolding between you and the intimacy of the plants? What worked for you and what would you recommend for people? Yeah, so it was a lot of different things overlapping. mean, you know, I think one of the reasons that my journey with ayahuasca and with plants in general has been so sexual is because part of my dharma, part of my purpose on being this earth is teaching around sexuality, right? So it might not look that way for someone else. Mm. So there was something that was happening intuitively and instructionally from the plants themselves and where they were inviting me into, what they were showing me and telling me. I certainly had a lot of support from the shamans that I would work with in Peru, from teachers here in the States who have extensive training and experience working with plant medicines and psychedelics. And then also, Hmm. My training with sexual energy, although it's separate from my training and the work I do with plant medicine, it has certainly informed it, right? So I was going to school for somatic sex education and sexological body work and really starting to learn how to consciously work with my sexual energy. And meanwhile, I'm walking these two paths that were absolutely intertwining and informing one another. That's really remarkable knowing now that what you do is hold space for the intersection of pleasure and plants to learn that your actual reclamation of your body and sexual reawakening, it was happening concurrently with plants and pleasure as a somatic sex educator. That's fantastic. I'd love our listeners, you know, who may feel numb and hopeless to learn, to be able to understand your journey from numbness to pleasure. So we know that, you know, the wisdom of the plant, the wisdom and guidance of the plant medicines was a key. And concurrently, you were studying to be a somatic sex educator. ⁓ curious, like, what advice would you give people who are out there who don't feel a lot of pleasure or sensation in regards to what that journey from numbness to pleasure could actually look like? Like, what kind of support would they benefit from psychologically, somatically, emotionally. Yeah, mean, you know, so much can happen with our own hands and our own breath and our own presence. And I spent a lot of hours, a lot of hours with myself in a room, really just learning to hold myself. And I think this is something that we all need to learn how to do. And of course I also had a lot of support. had, worked with somatic therapists, I worked with psychological body workers, I worked with, you know, plant medicine facilitators, but a lot of the transformation happened because I was willing to sit with myself. ⁓ And what I learned in my... ⁓ training in somatic sex education was with what's called the pleasure of practice. So sitting with myself and starting to ask myself, like, what would feel good to me right now? And as a trauma survivor, as someone who's experienced sexual violence and exploitation, it was radical for me to ask myself, what would feel good and what do I need? ⁓ And asking myself those questions over and over and at the beginning, I often didn't know the answer. Hmm. And a lot of grief would come up and it would be difficult, but I kept asking and I just kept listening. And for a long time, that was the practice. And then eventually pleasure started to open. So I think along the way, right? Because it can be hard to trust. Like, ⁓ this is just frustrating. Like, I don't know what I need. I don't know what I want. Things aren't feeling good. This is painful. But I think if you can find even little things that feel good, like... Wow. Maybe taking a sip of water or your connection with your dog or the tree outside. Just some connection, whether it's with yourself, whether it's something outside of yourself, and just slowly over time, let it grow from there. That's fantastic. So I'm hearing a number of things. know, earlier you shared how sitting and being with the grief, right, was really pivotal in metabolizing, you know, the grief, helped you kind of decouple the shame and the guilt. But what I'm hearing you say now is like really sitting and being with your own body and your own emotions, as frustrating as it might be, because I've got clients who, know, they don't self-pleasure because They say, it's a reminder that I can't feel and I get really disheartened. But it sounds like there's a persistence, a self-loving persistence that's really required. And at the same time, you are also receiving support from sexological body workers and plant medicine integration facilitators. So it's a multi-pronged kind of supporting yourself through the process. Yeah, and like loving friends too. That's so, so great. I'm curious, like as you were moving through your healing process, were there myths or beliefs around sexuality that you had to unlearn personally? It's endless. Yeah. What were some of the main ones that were like, my God, that is just... my god, it's endless. You know, what comes to mind first is that like more intensity will lead to more pleasure. Ooh, that's a good one. Right, and so as someone who previously had a pretty numbed out body, I would often need a lot of pressure to feel. Yes. But I also didn't even give myself a chance to see what I might feel if things were softer or gentler. So a lot of that was also tied up in conditioning of, know, partners I was choosing at the time who were really also just like me conditioned by the heteropatriarchy that tells us that, you know, sex is all about penis and vagina and pounding. And I was also unconsciously Right. often replaying scenarios that may have been traumatic or patterned. So there's so many different contributing factors, but when I did learn to start like, wait, hold on a second, maybe if I try to be really gentle and slow with myself, things might start to feel, maybe I'll feel more, maybe things will open up, and that is what happened. Right, right. Wow. Wow. What a beautiful, you know, I just was you sharing that I have this image of just this delicate flower like being able to open and blossom. speaker-1 (14:24) It is. And you know, a metaphor that I love for it as well is like ⁓ a starry night. Like if you come outside from a really brightly lit house, when you first look at the sky, you might not be able to see many stars. But the longer you stay, the more stars you'll see. And it's like in our body, when you first start feeling and looking, you might be like, I'm not feeling anything. But the longer you sit with it, the more you listen and look. you'll start noticing more and more sensations. Some will be really loud and some will be like so subtle and almost imprecise. speaker-0 (14:57) Ooh, I bet those are the really interesting ones. speaker-1 (15:00) they are. And like I find that the more spaciousness and slowness and gentleness that I ⁓ give my body, that I invite my partners to give my body, over time what I've just noticed is that more and more sensation opens. speaker-0 (15:16) Isn't that fascinating? It's like, it's just like this endless evolution of sensation when the safety, the consent, the choice, the getting the kind and quality of touch your body actually wants. Just, it is like more and more stars start to reveal in the sky. speaker-1 (15:37) Yeah. And if we go so fast, we can't even, we miss cues from our body. We don't really give ourselves a space to feel into like, huh, what would actually make this feel better right now? Is this actually what I'm wanting? Maybe I want a little bit of an adjustment or something different. speaker-0 (15:54) Yeah, so, so important. So, you know, it sounds like for those folks listening who are numb or who are healing from trauma, really having the space to go at the pace that you feel safe with and slowing down and really teasing out sensations and being with the emotions that inevitably will arise, you know, as you retouch those ⁓ sensitive areas. Like that's all inherent in... an integral part of the healing journey. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So I have been a fan of the erotic frontier, your substack, and you explore with such nuance and you're conveying very complex intersectional areas of how our cultural conditioning affects our society. And I wanted to start off by kind of asking you a broad question, which is, I mean, you've written about this. speaker-1 (16:25) Yeah. speaker-0 (16:51) How do you see power, culture, and societal conditioning shape our relationship to personal pleasure? Because everyone listening, they may not realize how these societal influences of power, culture, and conditioning, the norms in our society, affect our actual individual personal pleasure. speaker-1 (17:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's take America, for example, where we live. America was born from people stealing land, raping and pillaging people, using power over to dominate, to conquest. That is, that bleeds into, into our culture, right? That's what this culture here is born from, the dominant over culture. And so when we're taught that power, that Power, is tied with success, so both success in your life, achieving power, is about dominating, about conquering, is about having power over something. We're also taught to do the same thing with our bodies, to do the same thing with our sexuality. you know, it can look in two different ways. It can look like people kind of like outwardly having power over wielding sexuality as a weapon. to a particular outcome for something they want, for taking. It can also look like power over inward, suppressing your own desires, your own sexual energy, performing, versing. what I'm really speaking to as an invitation is collectively moving away from power over to power with. speaker-0 (18:32) Hmm. speaker-1 (18:33) So what does that look like with sexuality and with pleasure? Well, it looks like actually listening to and partnering with our pleasure, with our sexual energy. So pleasure can actually be used as a compass. And I wanna make a distinction here. I wanna talk about two types of pleasure that I see. There's a type of pleasure that's disconnected and that's an escape. that brings you out of your body, but there's a type of pleasure that's embodied that brings you deeper into yourself. And in this type of pleasure, embodied pleasure, you are going to feel grief, you're gonna feel anger, because it connects you with all parts of yourself. Your pleasure is then connected to your heart, your whole being, your soul. So that's the kind of pleasure that I'm talking about here. Listening to this pleasure, which points us towards what feels good, which points us towards our purpose and our passion and our life. speaker-0 (19:16) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. speaker-1 (19:28) It also can be used as a resource. It's foundational nourishment and care for ourselves. It also can be used to heal wounds and alchemize shame. As we know in our work as sexological bodywork. speaker-0 (19:40) and Yeah, it's profound. is profound. speaker-1 (19:49) And then when we're partnering with our sexual energy, it's like being in right relationship to it. So not denying it or suppressing it. Sexual energy is neutral. Power is neutral. They're all neutral energies. What matters is what awareness do we have to them being present, ⁓ and also what consciousness do we bring to what we do with these energies. Like you might start to feel sexual energy. It doesn't mean you need to do anything with it. You can do with it or you can choose to create art with it. You can sing from it or you can have a sexual exchange with yourself or with another being. speaker-0 (20:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you touch on a lot of really, really important points. And the culture in this country, you know, in America, it is very much, you know, you know, get it, you know, like, it's so much about achieving and proving and performance. And what I'm hearing is how that seeps into our intimacy, where it can be weaponized or used as a tool for... prestige or for gain rather than, you know, I love the distinction you make about, you know, the two kinds of pleasure. When we really do look inward for the pleasure, it's really honoring all of that we're feeling, you know, and being with pleasure rather than wielding some sort of influence or power over. That's really, really great. I want to, you know, I want to ask you again, The recent Substack article that you wrote, I think it was released just recently, it was really profound because you spoke about how speaking your truth and being fully seen as a sexual being actually transformed the embodiment of your cervical pleasure. So I think listeners will be fascinated by that. How does reclaiming pleasure shift how we show up in the world, like beyond just sexuality? Like how does it shift how we show up, you know, in our humanness? speaker-1 (22:04) Right. You know, our sexual energy is the same energy that animates our voice. It's the same energy that animates our creativity, our purpose, our desire, our passion. So when we disconnect from our sexuality for any number of reasons that it can happen, we're disconnecting from our life force, from our vitality. Yes. And we can really like, we lose our compass because our desire is our compass. And you know that thing that a lot of people say like, I don't know what my purpose is. I feel really off. they're very likely disconnected from their authentic sexual energy. speaker-0 (22:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's really poignant. I feel like so many, I don't know, I have a niece and nephew who are just coming out of college, and I feel like a lot of young people are kind of lost. And I wonder whether the, you know, there's a correlation between ⁓ them not being in their bodies and feeling their pleasure because they're so fixated on screens and not other people. speaker-1 (23:01) I think there definitely is, there definitely is. you know, something else about that, that article I wrote about my cervical awakening and kind of what my cervix taught me about visibility is as a woman, I was taught that being from a very young age, that being sexually visible is dangerous. I could experience harm, rejection, punishment. And what I kind of... speaker-0 (23:24) Yeah. speaker-1 (23:27) discovered as I started to claim myself as a sexual being publicly is that as I allowed myself to fully embody my sexuality, let it be seen, I actually started experiencing more pleasure. So I learned a different truth from my body that actually when I fully step into my sexuality, my eroticism, when I allow myself to be seen, I actually feel safer because the cervix only opens, it only softens, it only comes back to its aliveness and pleasure capacity when the body actually feels safe. It's directly connected to our vagus nerve. speaker-0 (24:08) Yes, yes. So what I'm hearing is, like you were conditioned when you were young to believe that being seen as a sexual being was dangerous. But part of your reclamation and your of your body's pleasure came about from allowing yourself to be seen and speaking your truth as a sexual somatic sex educator and a sexual being. And that you found that that actually made your body feel safer to really claim the truth of who you are. And with that came an opening of your cervix. speaker-1 (24:43) Yeah, and embodying my erotic power also allows me to voice my boundaries, which keeps me speaker-0 (24:51) Right. Right. So part and parcel of being seen sexually means also being seen for where your sexual boundaries are. speaker-1 (25:00) Yeah, yeah. That's huge. And I want to make a distinction here because I think there's a lot of confusion in our culture about what does sexual visibility mean because there's so much performance for the male gaze. So when I am fully embodying my sexuality and eroticism, that doesn't mean I'm like shaking my ass online. I mean, if I want to, I can, but I think a lot of people in our culture equate those two things. So if you're a sexually empowered person, that means that you're taking half naked pictures of yourself. That does not necessarily mean that. speaker-0 (25:39) Right, right, right. So this is very, very important distinction. So what can that look like? In your experience, being seen as a sexual human being, is that simply not hiding, not wanting to be invisible, just showing up as you are? Yeah. our audience understand. speaker-1 (25:57) Yeah, it's like for me, what it feels like is being fully in, like when I enter a room, I am fully in myself. I can feel myself in my body. Because I'm in touch with my erotic sexual energy, I'm able to express myself in the room. I'm able to express my boundaries. I'm able to share my gifts with the world. Yes. And also for me specifically with the work that I do, that I talk about sex. And that was really, really scary for me for a while as I was stepping into this work. speaker-0 (26:34) Yeah, I bet. mean, given what you just shared about being culturally conditioned to believe that it was dangerous to be seen as a sexual person. Like here you are becoming a somatic sex educator and speaking about sexuality. mean, it must have been, you were leading into an edge for probably. speaker-1 (26:54) Definitely leaning into an edge and yeah, like, you know, letting people know that I touch genitals and bodies and I'm teaching about extended love making and I have a ton of sex and my God, like it was really intense at the beginning. speaker-0 (27:10) Yeah, but what I'm hearing you share is that to show up fully as the human being that you are, you also must show up as the full sexual being that you are. I'd really love our audiences to have a context of the visceral, sensorial experience of your cervical awakening and how you see that tracking with the more vocal and... public. You've been around your writings and your work as a somatic sex educator. speaker-1 (27:42) Yeah, so, wow, cervical pleasure is really unique. Sensorily, it's very warm, like warm, tingly, and I feel it like deep, like I feel it in the depths of me. And at its peak of sensorial pleasures, it begins in the depths of me warm and tingly, but like radiates outwards beyond me. Wow. speaker-0 (28:10) Mmm, wow. speaker-1 (28:12) So delicious. speaker-0 (28:14) Yes, it sounds amazing. what I'm curious about is, you know, for a number of years when before your cervix awakened, you did not have a context of the depth of that warmth and tingliness, you know, spreading beyond you. Like, do you remember the first time? Like, was it really like kind of a subtle sensation you weren't really sure about? Was it like boom, my god, what is this? Like, you know, for For people who are curious about awakening their cervix, help us understand the evolution of your sensorial, energetic, cosmic connection. speaker-1 (28:52) Yeah, so my cervix did gradually come back online. So I remember specific moments where my cervix was asking for touch. And there wasn't a ton of sensation there when it was being touched, but it wanted it. And then over time, I started to feel more and more sensation. And then the peak of the most intense sensation I've experienced is from climax. speaker-0 (29:20) Mm-hmm. speaker-1 (29:21) cervical, like climax from cervical touch and pleasure. speaker-0 (29:25) Okay. speaker-1 (29:27) But that didn't happen at the beginning. It's definitely been a gradual process. And it was this past year that I started to feel like, wow, there's a lot of pleasure there. Like, yummy. speaker-0 (29:38) So it sounds like there was like a yearning for your cervix to be touched and made contact with and it kind of like as you attuned to it and fed it what it desired, the sensations and the energy experience of it just naturally evolved and spread. speaker-1 (29:58) Yeah. And when my cervix first started to want to be touched, because when I started engaging with sexological bodywork, there was a pretty long period of time where I, like my mind wanted to touch my cervix, but my cervix was like, no. And then I remember my cervix wanted to be touched and then it didn't want to be touched again for maybe like six months. So it's really been like this kind of gradual, slow practice of listening. speaker-0 (30:25) And you know, like, I think some people are wondering, especially if their cervixes are numb, is like, how do I listen to a part of my body that's numb? Like, what was the journey for you to start really attuning and feeling like you were accurately listening to a part of your body that had been numb? speaker-1 (30:43) Yeah, I mean, this has been years of practice for me, of just like relentlessly showing up for myself in devotion and asking, learning to ask all parts of my body, like, what do you need right now? And keep asking, even when many times over and over I heard nothing, I felt nothing. speaker-0 (31:01) Wow. Okay. So it goes back to what you said earlier about like this practice of asking yourself, what do I need? What do I want? What do I need? What do I want? And you're kind of like, you know, including and engaging with your cervix in that way as well. Beautiful. Beautiful. I want to touch upon ⁓ the Epstein files, which is everywhere in the news right now. And in your Substack article, the price of proof. And one of your first articles, you wrote about how the same system that created your trafficker was the same system that protected Epstein for decades. So you point out the burden that's placed on survivors, not the perpetrators in our judicial and government system. What does this reflect about our society and what is necessary for it to change? speaker-1 (31:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, something that I talk about in the first article that I wrote in examining what created my trafficker and how the same system protects Epstein. I really show how because of what our colonial capitalist patriarchy teaches us about power, right, power over, about certain bodies being disposable. And then also in this case for my trafficker as a black man, what he was facing with racism, like the conditioning that occurred for him that could lead him to believe that ⁓ he wasn't actually even doing anything wrong. that trafficking is actually a feature of the culture that has been built in the United States. So like it's to me, it's not a surprise. It's not a shock. I'm actually happy that more and more people are now seeing what has been happening for a very long time, just more under the radar and more hidden and behind closed doors. speaker-0 (32:43) Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So as you're sharing this, I'm just imagining this colonial patriarchal power hierarchy is the same hierarchy that allowed for the enslavement of African slaves for centuries. And it's that same kind of mentality and structure. It's like human beings are disposable or are of less value. It's the same kind of structure and messaging. Yeah. know, that has allowed Epstein's horrid system to go unnoticed or for him to get away with it. speaker-1 (33:38) Right. then we see mountains of evidence against all of these men whose names are still not being named and who are protected and are not being held accountable. And these victims who over and over are asked to tell their story, whose names are being released. speaker-0 (33:43) Mountain. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, your article, The Price of Proof, just kind of nails it on the head with what we're seeing now. You know, it's like the survivors needing to relive their trauma and fight, you know, whereas the wealthy men seem protected by our government. speaker-1 (34:15) Right, and you know, I've even just been going through this really interesting process, which is what inspired me to write that article. There's a remissions program from the Justice Department for survivors of sex trafficking who were trafficked on back page during a certain period of time. I qualify for this remissions program. So I've been going through the application process and when I immediately looked at it, I was like, this is a fucking joke because they're asking me. to qualify to prove that I was trafficked on back page, to find ads. And the reason that this is such a joke is because the whole structure of the way traffickers operate is for everything to disappear. speaker-0 (34:57) Right. ⁓ speaker-1 (34:59) I mean, yeah, they don't want to leave a trace. Exactly. they have systems to cover everything up. Right. And they're controlling the victims' often lives in every way, their finances, their phone, their computer. speaker-0 (35:13) So it's almost impossible for someone, I mean, in the moment, no less a decade or two decades later to find any kind of paper trail to ⁓ prove evidence. speaker-1 (35:28) Yeah. Yeah. So it just infuriates me because I think about all the people who qualify for this and are not going to be able to receive any money. And I'm just like, you know, why didn't they consult with trafficking survivors on how to make this process a little bit less painful? speaker-0 (35:47) Of course, of course. like logistically and administratively, it's a big headache, but then the emotional toll is a whole other level that you're putting survivors through to prove their case. speaker-1 (35:59) Yeah, and I understand that they're trying to prevent fraud, but honestly, how many people are going to be committing fraud with this? And there still will be people committing fraud. You know, it's kind of part of it. I mean, the easiest solution that's so obvious in my eyes is that they have a group of social workers that they assign to this that anyone who says they qualify can talk to. And then the social worker is going to be able to tell if they're a trafficking survivor or not. it's going to be pretty obvious. speaker-0 (36:30) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That seems to be much more supportive and a ⁓ way, like showing goodwill and wanting to rectify the situation, right? So I do want to ask you ⁓ about decriminalization of sex work. So what led you to advocate for decrim? And I feel like it's a really important topic because there's, I think, lot of lack of education around what that actually means. Some people in Scandinavia, they've turned the onus on not arresting sex workers, but the clients. Some people are advocating legalization. Why is decrim the best avenue? speaker-1 (37:14) Yeah, so, ⁓ you know, I've actually been through many iterations of different opinions over the years. And where I've landed is that Decrim is the is the only policy that would reduce trafficking. We are not going to end trafficking in our current system. As I said, it's a feature of the system. But Decrim does provide an avenue for reducing harm because it takes the power away from the state. and puts it into the hands of the sex workers. So decriminalization ⁓ allows sex workers to move more freely above ground and all sex workers, because there are, like, for example, the Nordic model, which there's a lot of anti-trafficking organizations that advocate for this, but it only allows, it doesn't actually allow, the industry to fully move above ground because the Nordic model criminalizes the buyers. So the buyers are still going to be afraid to give their information. makes it harder for then sex workers to actually take time to make decisions before jumping into some situation. And then like legalization, it puts... speaker-0 (38:22) Screen though. ⁓ well. Yeah, of course. speaker-1 (38:34) It puts the power in the hands of the government. It makes it like so only the people who can cross the red tape and afford a license will be able to practice legally. And then it's still illegal for everyone else. speaker-0 (38:50) That's right. I see. see. Yeah. So it's still kind of as a reflection of this hierarchy, know, this privilege of people who can go through the paperwork to legalize. And there's going to be a whole sub-economy of disenfranchised people who can't do it legally. speaker-1 (39:06) Yep. so whenever there's any industry of any kind that has to operate underground, that's where predators can thrive. And then even with legalization, because of the way it would be set up with hierarchy, there would be a lot of legal operations where there's a lot of abuse going on, a lot of exploitation. For example, we can see that in the way strip clubs are run right now. Not all of them. But a lot of them, there's a lot of exploitation and abuse going on in the legal structure. speaker-0 (39:39) Can you give listeners some insight as to how that power is being abused in strip clubs now? speaker-1 (39:47) Yeah, so, you know, I've certainly experienced at some clubs that if you are not providing sexual favors to either the bouncers or the owners, you know, if you're about to, if you're talking with a client who's about to take you to the champagne room, they will intervene and take away that client from you and give it to someone who is providing them with sexual favors. speaker-0 (40:09) Wow. So this is the danger of legalizing sex work is those people kind of in power or in power can still abuse the sex workers legally. speaker-1 (40:23) Right. So what we really want to do is, in whatever way possible, give the power back to the sex workers themselves. they are empowered to be making more of their own decisions on how they want to be operating. speaker-0 (40:38) Right, right, okay. So it really speaks to the autonomy of the sex workers. So they're not like, you know, bound to, ⁓ you know, their bosses, right? They're autonomous and that reflects their safety and their health. speaker-1 (40:57) Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I went through this really fascinating healing journey around my experiences as both a sex worker and a sexually trafficked person where there was a good while where I was really confused because I thought sex was the wound, like that sex work is harmful. But as I, as I continued my healing journey, what, what I came to was a very different truth that sex work is not harmful. The harm comes from the systems in which sex work is operating. speaker-0 (41:30) Okay. And just for audiences to know, when you use the term sex work, what are you exactly referring to? speaker-1 (41:37) Sex work is an umbrella term for any exchange of sexual services for money or goods. So it can include camming, pornography, phone sex operators, escorts, strippers, sexological body workers, erotic massagers of all and any type. speaker-0 (41:59) So what you're saying is, and I've known dancers who love dancing, you know, and they're getting paid for it. And I've also known dancers who feel like they're kind of stuck in it. And what I'm hearing you say is it's not the inherently the dancing or the sugaring or the full service. It's how that is being abused or treated that that affects whether it's safe or not. speaker-1 (42:24) Right, right. So as I say, what I have discovered in all of my experiences and all of my research that I've been doing is that sex work is holy work, but in a capitalist colonial patriarchy, it can be extremely dangerous work. speaker-0 (42:41) Yeah, extremely dangerous and yeah, I don't know how to say it. I mean, I know, you know, I've had clients who were sex workers and the armor that it creates in their bodies as a result of the work that they do seems very damaging, you know, even though they're independent and so forth. So yeah, I mean, to your point, I think it's very, very individual and it depends on, you know, how that sex work. speaker-1 (42:54) Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (43:08) is there's so many layers of consent and autonomy and free choice. it really depends on how it's being experienced. speaker-1 (43:17) Yeah, right. And does the sex worker have the capacity to feel into their own body and their own boundaries? Do they have the capacity to voice them? Do they have mentors and teachers? mean, you know, if it was above ground and people had more support, if there was widespread education on sex that was pleasure and consent based, it could be safer. speaker-0 (43:47) Absolutely. And another question I wanted to ask was, what do you feel are people's biggest misunderstandings about sex work and sex workers? speaker-1 (44:00) Yeah. So there are so many. And one of the biggest misunderstandings is the collapsing of all sex work into sex trafficking, the conflation between the two. speaker-0 (44:12) inflation. speaker-1 (44:14) So, right, sex work is inherently consensual. I would actually include that in my definition, that it's the consensual exchange of sexual services for money or goods. And it's not to say that there can't be exploitation that occurs even when you're doing it consensually, just like in any job. Like, you know, if you work at a restaurant, your boss could say, I'm going to fire you if you don't do X, Y, Z. So that's exploitation. But exploitation is not the defining factor of sex work. Exploitation is the defining factor of sex trafficking. So someone is engaged in sexual services when they're being sexually trafficked due to manipulation, fraud, or coercion. speaker-0 (45:01) That's a really clear, mean, like crystallizes the definition of sex trafficking really well just by summing it up by naming it for what it is, which is exploitation. speaker-1 (45:12) Yeah. And then the other place my mind goes to is just the stigma. So many people that I've come across just like are kind of like disgusted or horrified by the idea of sex work. And I really want to, and it can be hard to imagine this because again, what our culture is like and all that comes with our culture around sexuality and money, but there was a time in other cultures where sex workers were revered teachers. Teachers of love and pleasure and grief. speaker-0 (45:45) Mmm. Yeah, so really inviting people to look at sex work historically and considering how sex workers were revered. I know in Japanese culture, the geishas are trained, like the most trained crafts people, in knowing how to provide both intellectual and sensual openings of... of their patrons. What are you most passionate about teaching right now? And I want our listeners to know, like, where should they start if they're feeling called to work with you? speaker-1 (46:25) Okay, well, I am the kind of person who never has just one thing I'm really passionate about teaching. ⁓ One thing that I'm super passionate about teaching right now is working with individuals and couples who want to experience ecstatic connection with a partner, who want to use pleasure and sexuality. speaker-0 (46:31) Okay. speaker-1 (46:50) as a way to heal childhood wounds, as a way to open portals of consciousness. And I love teaching that with you. Oh, you do. Divine union for lovers. that's one of the things that is very exciting to me right now. speaker-0 (46:57) Wow. Lucky me. Yes, me too. speaker-1 (47:11) And I'm also having a lot of fun teaching practitioners to develop the capacity for high integrity for embodied presence in their facilitation. Awesome. Yeah. And I'm that with a colleague, Candice, who I facilitate ayahuasca plant medicine retreats for women in Peru with. We actually have one coming up in April. speaker-0 (47:34) Okay. Okay. And if people want to find out about that you're holding space work, how can they find that? speaker-1 (47:41) Well, if they go to my website, sacredmoonflower.com, in the offerings, there's a virtual offerings page, because this is a virtual offering. We're running a cohort right now. There will certainly be future cohorts. speaker-0 (47:53) So you're in the middle of offering this cohort now. Is there any sense of when it'll be offered again or in what format? speaker-1 (48:00) Again, virtually, and I think probably we'll run another cohort later, maybe towards the next half of the year. speaker-0 (48:08) ⁓ exciting. Okay. And what is it that excites you so much about this particular offering? speaker-1 (48:13) Well, it was a really fun challenge to figure out how to teach people attunement. And I think, and also about power and oppression. And it's just been a really fun for me to dream into these different frameworks and just provide people with different practices to be the best facilitator they can and also to feel more confident in sharing their gifts. speaker-0 (48:20) Yes! That's so great because I feel like that, you know, I've seen the framework of your course and I feel like attunement, I've never really seen attunement being taught for spaceholders, which is really the skill that's most needed. You know, if you want to hold space for a safe, you know, group experience. And, you know, as you're mentioning, a space of high integrity really requires the facilitators to have the capacity to attune. to what's happening in the room. And so I can imagine how fun and exciting and how valuable that offering is. Okay, so your website is called, it's sacredmoonflower.com and people can find your offerings there. To close, I want to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions. I'm gonna start a sentence and I'm gonna invite you to finish it. Okay, so pleasure means. speaker-1 (49:37) The most delicious heart-opening, expansive experience of sensations in the world. speaker-0 (49:43) Awesome. Okay. The biggest myth about sexuality is... speaker-1 (49:49) Is that it's shameful. speaker-0 (49:51) Good one, good one. Okay, one thing you wish everyone understood about their body is... speaker-1 (49:57) Your body is a buffet of delicious decadent meals and desserts. speaker-0 (50:03) Nice, nice. I love that. Okay. A practice that changed your life is speaker-1 (50:09) is saying hello to my genitals. speaker-0 (50:12) So good, so important for everyone. The future of erotic culture feels... speaker-1 (50:18) It feels like wild fire burning away all the old and opening into this field of wild flowers and streaming waters. speaker-0 (50:29) That is a vision I think everyone would love to live into. Ariel Zabo, thank you so much for joining us today. This was delightful. It's been a real pleasure to hear your perspectives on all of these very critical to our society, to live healthily, to thrive. I'm just struck by your insight about how the more fully seen you allowed yourself to be, the more your body and pleasure opened up. Now that's just like so profound and I wish that for all of our listeners. speaker-1 (51:04) Yeah, click in with me again in five years and see how much pleasure I'm experiencing then. speaker-0 (51:09) I will, I can't wait, I can't wait. How is today's episode landing for you and your body? Right now. Can you imagine what realms of intimate, vulnerable, and expansive experiences could evolve from consistently asking yourself, what do I need and what do I want? Can you recognize ways for shifting dynamics from power over into power with that are affecting your experiences of pleasure, sensations, and intimacy? Can you attune to the nature of your cervix and feel its connection to the voicing of your truth and how opening one just might lead to sensitizing and awakening the other? Links to Ariel's work at sacredmoonflower.com and her substack, The Erotic Frontier, can be found in the show notes. If you found this podcast helpful, consider leaving a five-star review or sharing it with a friend. And until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. 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Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Ariel Szabo, Cervical Awakening, Decrim, Rahi Chun, Sacred Moonflower, Sacred Sexuality, Sex Trafficking, Sexual Healing, The Erotic Frontier --- ### [Orgasmic Birth, Miscarriage & Pelvic Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/orgasmic-birth-miscarriage-pelvic-healing/) **Published:** January 28, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** What happens when an engineer experiences an orgasmic birth so profound it transforms her entire life's path—and how the intersection of grief and pleasure can unlock our deepest healing. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # Orgasmic Birth, Miscarriage & Pelvic Healing ### *with Katie Spatarro* ### ### ## In This Episode We explore the intersection of birth, loss, and pelvic healing with Katie Spataro. You’ll learn how the body processes these experiences and how healing restores connection and sensation. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/katie-dahlia.avif "katie dahlia") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) **About Our Guest:** Katie Spataro (she/her) is a somatic sex educator, holistic pelvic care provider and full spectrum doula informed by the intersections of birth work and sex work to support healing of the personal and collective cultural bodies. Katie blends various modalities of somatic practice, bodywork and skilled coaching in her private practice, and facilitates classes on sexual and reproductive wellness, embodied consent, grief and loss, pregnancy and birth, and erotic education through a trauma-informed and healing-centered lens. She currently serves as core faculty at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education and as adjunct faculty at Antioch University’s Sex Therapy Certificate Program. Over the last 25 years, Katie also studied and practiced various forms of dance and yoga, exploring ways in which the body is a channel for the divine – including deep dives into the ecstatic realms through breathwork, plant medicines, and erotic practice. ### Katie’s Links: [Sacred Womb Services](https://www.sacredwombservices.com/) [The Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education](https://somaticsexeducator.com/) ## What You’ll Learn About Birth, Loss & Pelvic Healing $ Pivotal embodied initiations – Katie’s journey from engineering to somatic sex work was catalyzed by two profound experiences: a miscarriage that required spontaneous ritual and an orgasmic birth that forever changed her relationship to her sexual body $ Birth and sexuality are inseparable – Katie explores how pregnancy, birth, loss, and sexuality are all deeply intertwined expressions of our sexual bodies that cannot be separated $ The three-year integration window – Both physically and spiritually, major life transitions like birth and loss require years of integration, not just immediate postpartum healing $ Early embodied connection as foundation – Katie traces her sexual intelligence back to early masturbation and a mother who consciously worked to raise her without sexual shame despite their Catholic upbringing $ Grief and pleasure as portals – These two states function as gateways into each other—pleasure can open us to grief, and grief work can become profoundly erotic when we fully embody it $ The pervasiveness of childhood sexual trauma – Katie reveals that the majority of her clients are survivors of childhood sexual trauma, yet this remains deeply taboo even within conversations about sexual abuse $ Survivors healing retreat as medicine – For eight years, Katie has co-facilitated retreats creating brave space for survivors to do grief work and tend to resilience and joy in community $ Intergenerational healing through lineage work – Katie emphasizes how our healing work impacts not only our own bodies but breaks cycles across generations, both ancestrally and for future lineages $ Training as personal healing – The journey of becoming a somatic sex educator or sexological bodyworker requires practitioners to face and heal their own sexual histories before holding space for others $ Embodiment as access to the divine – Through 25 years of yoga, dance, breathwork, plant medicines, and erotic practice, Katie explores the body as a channel for the sacred and the ecstatic ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [Pleasure as medicine and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [Pelvic pain and scar tissue healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [Genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [Genital health and pleasure explained ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today's guest, Katie Spataro, somatic sex educator, holistic pelvic care provider, and core faculty at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education shares the raw truth about how her body. Initiated her into the sacred work she holds space for today through a miscarriage that required spontaneous ritual, an orgasmic birth that changed the entire trajectory of her life, and nearly a decade of holding space for survivors of childhood sexual trauma. Katie reveals the profound interconnection between birth, sexuality, grief. And pleasure. If you've ever wondered how our deepest wounds can become portals to our most transformative healing, or about the beauty and therapeutic value of prostate and anal work, this conversation will take you there. . We're in for a treat today. I have Katie she, her who is a somatic sex educator. A holistic pelvic care provider and full spectrum doula informed by the intersections of birth work and sex work to support healing of the personal and the collective cultural bodies. Katie blends various modalities including somatic practice. Body work, skilled coaching in her private practice and facilitates a wide range of community classes both online and in person, covering sexual and reproductive wellness, embodied consent. Grief and pregnancy and birth and erotic education through a trauma informed and healing centered lens. She currently serves as core faculty at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education and as adjunct faculty at Antioch University Sex Therapy Certificate Program. Katie, thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, what a pleasure. Thanks for having yes. Yes. Thank you. I also wanted to say that Katie, over the last 25 years has also studied and practiced various forms of yoga and dance embodiment exploring ways in which the body is a channel for the divine, including deep dives into the ecstatic realms through breath work, plant medicines, and erotic practice. And I had the great pleasure of hanging out with Katie and other colleagues. Earlier this summer exploring the intersection of all of those things. So it was really cool. Katie there's so many, there's so many channels or kind of rabbit holes we can explore. But I wanted to start off by asking, as I often do with guests what have been the pivotal events in your life that have informed. The sacred work that you hold today that you hold space for because it's a very unique calling and it's a very sacred and privileged calling. And I'd love for our audience to know, get to know you a little bit through those pivotal experiences. Thanks for that question, Rahi. I love that question too because I definitely have been somebody who have, has pivoted into where I am now. I wasn't one of those kids on the playground that all my friends were asking sex questions to, or, I didn't always imagine being a birth worker. In fact, I had a whole previous lifetime of a career. In the field of engineering. And when I look back on that time to where I am now I think about how important those pivotal moments were to put me on a different track. And I think there were many, but one of the first ones was my first experience with pregnancy which resulted in a miscarriage or a loss and how profound that experience was. I now know as a birth worker and as somebody who works. Tending the womb space, how common pregnancy losses are, but at the time I had no idea. And I had no idea that it would be such an in initiatory experience in my body. My body went through a labor, my, that was at that time completely unsupported and my partner at the time also had no idea how to support me. And I found myself doing spontaneous ritual afterwards. Creating the rituals and the support that I needed that was real, a real absence to wow. And then I, a couple years later, got pregnant again. And had. Unexpectedly and incredibly orgasmic birth. Wow. In fact, I was telling, dear friends of mine right after giving birth, I said, I don't know what happened to me in that experience. I dunno what happened to my sexual body, but I know that I will never be the same. And that sort of sent me very much into a deep dive to finding teachers and lovers and experiences that helped me integrate both the miscarriage. This orgasmic birth in my body, because at that point I didn't have any scaffolding or infrastructure to integrate it. Wow. That's really wild. So did both of those events happen while you were in your previous career as an engineer? They did. So I'm really curious help us understand how, now you're such a prolific teacher of this work. At that time when you had the miscarriage and your orgasmic birth, what was your, like sexual EQ compared to could you make. Because it sounds like the intuition was there. You found rituals, like organically to grieve your experience. Did you even understand what was happening with either experience? Yeah, good question. I remember, I'm thinking about when we were together a couple months ago, Rahi, and we were all sharing some of our stories of how we got into this field of somatic sex education and sexological body work. And a common thread for all of us is that we had found masturbation early like that, right? We were early on in life, and this is true for me, connected to my sexual body, probably even in ways that were about. Surviving challenging situations, and and finding power and pleasure even as a young person. So I had that connection early on to my sexual body. And I grew up Catholic. In a very, I went into the engineering world in a very male dominated space. Really was immersed in heteropatriarchy for most of my life. And so I really honestly didn't know that there was much outside of those experiences. And so when. I often say like, when my body literally got blown out from these birthing, these pregnancy and birthing experiences, I did have this foundation of like connection to my sexual body that feels not only a through line through my life, but. When I my mom's now passed, in conversations that I had with her, it was really important for her. She would tell me to be raising a daughter that didn't experience the same kind of sexual shame that she experienced, right? And there are ways in which I realized that I was also brought up to be connected to my body in that way. Wow, that's so beautiful. Especially in light of what you shared earlier about being raised in a Catholic home. Like you had a very progressive, I was raised Catholic as well. You I mean like hats off to your mom for being so cool. Yeah. And. And then, and to you to, grow up in a home where you could be so embodied and explore your sexuality, despite the religious, overtones. So Katie, it sounds like both those experiences were really earth just earth shattering, shattering. Yeah. Yeah. And change like your, so how did the orgasmic birth, it sounds like you wanted to know everything about what was going on what you, your pelvis had experienced. How did that lead you, into this field and into this work? Was it a gradual thing? Was it a dramatic pivot? Like how did that unfold? It was fairly gradual in that, birth as a birth, I became a birth worker soon after that and then supported hundreds of people and families through this transitional experience. So I, I really got to dive deep into what is this experience of. Pregnancy and birth and loss and grief and pleasure that is centered around our sexual bodies. In my opinion, we can't bring, we can't separate birth and sex out, as much as we can try. They're integrally intertwined. And birth is a event that often does have this very significant, pivotal moment, but can take years in the integration. And the lineage of light trained in the postpartum period is three years. Not because that's, our bodies are healing, but our psyches and our spiritual development is all happening over several years to help integrate the new physically and spiritually, people that we are after these big. Profound experiences, and that's true whether or not there's a live baby at the end. So that's really true in my opinion, from people who experience pregnancies that end in loss. It's so fascinating that it was three years after the first pregnancy, right? That three year mark is when you gave birth to your son. It's true. And then probably about three years after that I really found the work that I had been so passionate about. Was suddenly like I just, I couldn't bring myself to get out of bed for Wow. And I just knew that I was not gonna be a person that would, could just drag myself into, out of bed to a job that I didn't feel passionately about. And so I took a period of time to really. Put that career and that part of myself to rest literally to come to a death of that part of myself which is what becoming a parent often does for us as a gift and to, do some inquiry about what came next. And in that process of inquiry of which I went through a very supported process with teachers and again, lovers and guidance. And I found myself at the end of that period of transition training to be a birth worker. And I would never in a million years had maybe put myself there, but I just trusted because I had gone through this process. And as I started working with bodies and birth, I was doing a lot of healing of my own pelvis from my own birth injury experiences. And that sort of guided me into the realm of finding people that could support releasing the trauma that was in my own pelvis. From there following some breadcrumbs into the incredible teachers in this counter normative realm of sexological body work, which I, I think is some of the most potent healing work of our time. Yeah. I I so agree. I feel like the last few guests I've interviewed they really spoke about rewilding the body as activism. And it really is, given how domesticated and the pressure we feel from the systemic patriarchy and, racism and so forth. Just all of the spoken and unspoken. I feel like the unspoken is almost more dangerous 'cause we're at the effect, of these systems without really realizing it. And how, like something like your orgasmic birth, it feel, it felt it sounds like it rebirthed something in you. So before we go forward I wanna ask Katie knowing what you know now did you intend on an orgasmic birth? Did it just happen spontaneously? Looking back on that experience, what were the elements that I, that you feel like, informed or allowed for that to happen? Okay. Great question. And I would say I'm just chuckling a bit because I think this is a bit of a controversial topic, but no, I was not planning for an orgasmic birth. I didn't even really know what that was. But I was throughout a, I had a incredibly powerful and pleasure filled pregnancy. And not everyone experiences that, like some people have a real challenge during pregnancy. They don't feel great in their bodies the whole time. I was just very lucky in a lot of ways to be in a place in life and to have, the kind of pregnancy that I just was like radiating. Wow. I just felt I get to be big and beautiful in my body and I'm loving it. And I'm sure the cocktail of hormones, which is similar to the cocktail of hormones we experience in sex and in orgasm that was pulsating through my body, throughout pregnancy, was really priming it, in my opinion. Wow. For this orgasmic birth experience. I didn't know I wasn't cultivating that, but and the thing of why I was chuckling while he is at. Becoming a birth worker and attending births that happened through cesarean delivery in hospital settings, or in candlelight bedrooms or medicated births in hospitals. I really got to see birth in, in so many different settings. And I would say what I was studying in that energetic field of labor and delivery of birth is that birth is inherently orgasmic, always. It's like the way that life comes through our bodies is orgasmic, it's like an orgasm of the universe. It's some, there's often like a. There's a, there's a crescendo in it, even when it's a really gentle and quiet space, and sometimes it's a big, and a lot is happening in that space. I believe that birth is an orgasm to begin with. And how we support people to be in that orgasm of birth is really quite variable, right? Lots of people come out of a birth experience and feel traumatized by it. Feel harmed by the experience and that relates, in my opinion, to the systems that are, have erased a lot of the indigenous knowledge of how to be with birth and how to integrate those experience afterwards. And a lot of that is changing. Yeah, a lot of that is changing. Thank goodness. But, because, my, my best friend who you've gotten to know, is also a gy, is a gynecologist. It's changing. And yet the kind of structures that were set in place by the field of gynecology were really developed by men. Black women. Black women, black women, at least in this country. I think it just seems like a lot of the practices were designed for their comfort and not from the perspective of the baby or the mother. Yeah, there's a whole just tragic history really to what we know of as current, birth care and women's health and womb health for, women and, trans and non-binary people with uterus. Yeah. I wanna, I wanted to ask you, so first I wanted to get a sense of those pivotal events, but I also wanted to ask about your space holding because, and the experiences that we've shared, at Salt Spring in our lab I feel like you channel. You. It's like you, your consciousness is open for what wants to come through, and it feels like you're attuning for how the energy wants to meet itself. And so I'm, I wanna get a sense of like your path after the orgasmic birth you sought out teachers, you just really, it sounds like, did a really beautiful. Dive into all of these wisdoms, what's been pivotal in informing how you hold space for your clients, whether it's for sexological body work, or pelvic, womb, rejuvenation or even the classes you teach. The question is making me pause and really think about some of the teachings that I've received around space holding and supporting others. And I've been really fortunate to study with just some, just incredibly skilled. People and teachers, and I feel like I'm a bit of a junkie when it comes to finding skilled. Like I just wanna be in their presence and to track like how are they holding space and what are they doing or often not doing. And I think that some of the greatest teachings I've had in that space, I'm gonna bring it back to birth work because it feels like my origin story. Is watching midwives who really skilled midwives, who know when to step in and guide and support and when to step back and to let the, and to trust the body and the body's wisdom as it cycles through and experience. And there's such a, not everyone, I would watch this incredible skill and this incredible power. Sometimes birth workers have to know, and it, there's a lot of intuition, but there's a lot of training and a lot of the older practices of birth work came through like apprenticeships, right? So we got to learn by being in the room with skilled people and watching them. I often, 'cause now I'm a teacher of sexological body work, I have had students say, wow, I just really wanna just be present in a session to see how people are doing. It's one of the reasons why when we teach, we do a lot of demos. So what we're teaching is less about the skill or the technique and as much about the presence, what we're doing, and sometimes what we're not doing. And I think one of the. I don't know where, I think probably from birth work or what, where did I really get this sense is like I'm often not the one in control. It's like this is not about me. I'm really trusting and holding that. My clients' bodies are the teachers in the space and how, and like a reverence for how I show up to meeting their bodies and what their bodies have to share. What they're wanting or needing or desiring and what they're ready. Oh, I love, yeah. Yeah. I can totally see how birth work facilitating it, witnessing it attuning to it has been such a tremendous teacher for you to know. It sounds to me like what you're sharing is you're really in service to the wisdom of the body. And knowing when to get out of its way and when to support it so that the, that innate wisdom can come through. Yeah. Beautiful. Wow. So beautiful. Okay, so I wanna dive into prostates. Because like part of the inspiration, I've been a fan of you and your work for years. When we were at Salt springing you had shared this exchange, the multi-year exchange you've had with with a colleague and your interest in. Moving into prostate work and how for so long you've held exquisite space for pelvises, but that this is actually it's leaning into new territory. So I wanted to ask you like, the inspiration for you in working with men and trans women and prostates. Yeah, you were there in my aha moment that that sort of arose for me. So yeah, I have been doing fa internal pelvic fascial release work for a decade with people with uterus and, not that people with prostates haven't, do, haven't, or don't need that work, it's just when they have come to my, contacted me for session work, I've usually just refer them on to one of my many amazing colleagues that are here. I'm in community with, who specialize in working with men and working with prostates. And it's only been fairly recently that, I think maybe it's just like after being in practice as a hands-on practitioner for 10 years and seeing this, like what I've been developing skill wise with the fascial release work in inside the pelvis and where we're at in our world. Like that sort of activation of the world right now. I started to put together the need for more prostate fascial work, internal prostate fascial work. Really as activism of for our time. And something lit up for me in that space of there's a huge need for this. Huge on lots of levels. Partially as rahi 'cause you work in this way too. When we work in the pelvis in a slow way, meeting the body and meeting the tissues and supporting whatever release or unwinding once or needs to happen. There's often a intense downregulation to that. But there, there might be activation in the process, but oftentimes people are leaving in up with it. In a state of presence that can be really challenging to access in other ways and in other spaces. And I do believe, like when we occupy our pelvises and move from our pelvises, we show up in the world and in community and d in a whole different way. Whole different way. You've. Oh, sorry. No, go for it. There, there are a couple of, real things you shared that I wanted to underscore one. The root is our response to our sense of safety, security, and given the times we're in, there, I think there's a lot of clenching happening, in, in our world, in our country, and for example, the trans community, for communities that are feeling threatened and it's life and death threats right now, for prostate owning bodies, pelvic floor should be like a relaxed sling. And when those muscles get tight, it presses up and it can really impede the life force flow in the prosthetic area. So that's huge. I feel like it's very exciting that, you've been so familiar with pelvises and releasing fascia, and this is, it feels to me like an, it's an extension, but at the same time, like a new terrain, but like an extension. Yeah, and you mentioned before, and I wanna bring it in, that I've really been training hands-on in that, in prostate work with a colleague of mine that he and I have been exchanging, have had a pelvic fascial body work exchange for. The last 10 years. So it's a really interesting way to be in colleagueship but also to learn and to be, and to relate to another person's body, which is to exchange this level of present attuned, slow, gentle. Internal pelvic, fascial touch. And so I have been and he's an amazing teacher and also really knows how to teach from the table, so to speak, right? So to guide and to teach someone as their hands are on him. And so I've been really training in this prostate work. I haven't just quite been ready to offer it yet. Yeah, it's an amazing container that you've shared for over 10 years. That's just mind blowing to me that, as our bodies evolve, you've been able to track that evolution with each other. For the last 10 years, and I'm sure like, emotional challenges, personal professional challenges, like it shows up in the pelvis, and especially around the anal sphincter. And it feels to me, Katie, like you've been in, in apprenticeship or preparing for this for a decade. Yeah, I would say so. And then I'm in this place now of if I'm going to offer that work. What, I don't see a lot of models out there in the world and in the medical community for this type of prostate work. And so I can feel how important it is and how important it is to have consult and referrals. I can imagine the need for a urologist and a visceral manipulation, both somebody I can consult with as well as refer back and forth because none of those folks, again, as we know Rahi and why our work is so important, people aren't necessarily touching genitals. Or touching inside the pelvis in ways that are attuned and present with. The physical, emotional, spiritual, aspects of our pelvises, but also that can incorporate pleasure into those spaces and pleasure as part of the healing process and not be a afraid of things like arousal if that were to come up in a session, right? Like that. We know how to hold such a wide space for people in their experiences. Yeah. And I feel like what you're touching upon is speaks to the medicine that allowing, even inviting pleasure in these deep places of our pelvis, the core of our being, inviting and allowing pleasure is such a liberating and rewilding experience. That is the medicine that we all need, right? Because we're living in a society that's anti pleasure. And we hold that, all of us in our bodies in one way or another. Katie, when you speak to the, it's not just physical, it's emotional, it's spiritual, when parts, and we know that. Tissues, hold emotion, that holds a memory. And when it's recognized by a present touch, what can be released and metabolized is really profound. It could be something as simple as. Your mother taking your temperature when you had a cold and sticking a thermometer in your butt, when you're five and it didn't feel good to, unwanted penetration and just the acknowledgement of that tissue that's been guarded or afraid or hurt for years or decades. Just acknowledging that by touching it with your presence can be profoundly life changing. Yeah. I just am excited that. Potentially prostate fascial release work could be beneficial for anyone who feels like deeper connection to this part of their body. Holding and releasing tension, holding and releasing trauma, accessing more pleasure, right? That's true maybe for anyone with or without a prostate. Yes. Yes. Okay. So I wanted, I wanna zoom in a little bit about this very unique partnership container, body work exchange you've had with, our dear colleague. How did this come about? Did you imagine when you started, like over 10 years later, it you'd still be, holding space for anal massage for each other, and does it, is it pretty much focused on anal like a, an anal massage exchange, or does it go beyond that? I wanna name my colleague Charlie Dickman because he's an amazing teacher and also somatic sex educator. It, I don't think we knew what we were up to when we got started. And so it has been emergent over the many years and it has sometimes taken on some different rounds. Like I had scar tissue from my birthing experience that I asked him to do some work on. And, there's times where we have maybe deviated from, anal touch work, but for the most part, we have been exchanging anal fascial release work. And at this point, it's we joke that, like my partner will be like, I think you need to go see Charlie. It's like how important for our wellbeing and our nervous system it is to continue to receive that kind of touch from each other. Wow. And it's not that we can't do that touch on our own bodies. We can we all have the ability to, to do that. Same kind of loving slow touch and it can be so much, easier to have to be, to do a give and receive practice. And one more thing I wanna say, rahi on that, is that the reason why this works so well is Charlie and I have also really studied and practiced. One of the things that I teach is the wheel of consent and the wheel of consent. Practices of giving, of pulling apart, giving and receiving so we can really get clear about what those roles are and who it's for and how we show up clearly in those roles. And because Charlie and I have studied and practiced in that in the wheel we can really. We take turns getting on the table and giving and receiving with each other. And we do those in separate sessions. So we don't have one time together where we take turns giving and receiving. We have one session on one day where one of us is in receiving and then we schedule a whole separate session on another day when another person's in receiving. And that really also gets us, allows us to show up fully. As in the role of receiving, which I think is essential for us practitioners. Yeah, it's essential for us practitioners. Yeah. I love that the container is it's set up so that you're not needing to switch your energy into space holding after you've received or, that's really great. For listeners, Katie, I really wanna encourage people to find a friend, a platonic friend, to create a container for this kind of exchange. It doesn't have to be for anal massage, it can just be playing the three minute game, some sort of exchange of touch because, we're really conditioned depending on. What your situation is to not under, not, we're not practiced in attuning to what it is we really want or give voice to it. And I would say the other factor in there is I think there's a lot of people pleasing that we're conditioned to, to, succumb to. And so I really wanna encourage people to find a practice buddy. It could be a platonic friend to do some sort of one way. Touch exchange around. And Katie, I wanted to ask you like the elements that have really made it work for you and Charlie, it sounds like you're both very astute in consent and boundary work. You're both very skilled, as we, because you both do this professionally. Are there any other elements that people should consider if entering into this kind of like platonic one way touch container? I love a time a timer. Yes. I think a timer is an essential part of practices like this. Because it means we're gonna agree on when we start and when we stop and what we're doing in the time period of this. Agreed upon time container. Charlie and I, we commit to a two hour session when we show up with each other and we also hold each other to that session, right? So we're, as a practitioner, I get a kind of a stickler about holding the time container as part of what I'm holding for my clients when I'm in the role of giving. So I love a timer. I think that there sometimes can be, and Charlie and I have had to do this sometimes when things have come up in the practice and the exchange where we needed to maybe have a check-in or do some like tending to os or Oops in that space, right? Maybe we had to like, take time outside of. A body work exchange to tend to things that came up in that session. And, I'd say having the opportunity to do that a little bit over the several years also allowed us to deepen into a lot of trust with each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really great. So I wanna ask you, 'cause when I was looking at the community classes that you offer I mean there's a whole beautiful range of subjects practices for pelvic self-care anatomy mapping through a pleasure centered lens. Desires and boundaries. Pleasure mapping, menopause. I just got the sense, and also from knowing you, the important role community plays, like learning in community. What do you, what have you noticed? What's the kind of ma, what's the magic that can happen in a community space of learning about sexual embodiment that's different than one-on-one? Because I think each offers its magic. It's true. And the majority of my work has been one-on-one or private session work, whether it's with individuals or I off. I also work with couples or people in relationship structures, but the majority of my work has been private session and it's many years ago I also, I wanted to bring what. People are accessing in private sessions into more community spaces because for lots of reasons, one, it makes it more financially accessible to some people. Can't afford a private session. And two, what it does, and I think this is so important when it comes to sex and intimacy, is that it brings. Multiple experiences into the space is truth, right? So sometimes we can get so binary in our thinking of what's right or what's wrong, or how it should be or how it shouldn't be, particularly around our sexual bodies. And I love it in a group space when somebody shares, oh, this is my experience and somebody else shares my experiences very different than that. And I feel like there's so much power that can happen. Even in a group case of I'm, maybe presenting about anatomy and somebody chimes in and says something like this, their experience is different. I think there's so much for us to learn and often unlearn in a more communal, collective setting when it relates to our sexual bodies. I really value that. I learn more that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and it seems like there's a lot of permission giving in a group space when someone shares an experience that's actually shared by many others, but the other folks may be shy to share about it. It normalizes, or, takes the stigma away from something that some someone may feel some shame about or, unsure about, outing themselves around. Absolutely. That is such a big piece of com, of collective and community work as well, where somebody might be really challenged to bring into the space something that they're experiencing in their bodies. Sexual shame. It runs deep. It sometimes embedded so deep in our bodies, in our lineages. Like I often say, I had to. Excavate parts of my sexual body, out of generations of, sexual shame. And then there's somebody sitting right next to you who just freely talks about, the question that you've been wanting to ask. And it's so liberating and, yeah. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And when you talk about lineage, you look at the puritanical lineage of this country or like Catholicism, which again I grew up in and it, it is it's so many generations of collective shame that is in our, DNA Oh my gosh. We grew up with the Virgin, right? Totally. It's totally it's pretty deep in there. It's so deep. It's so deep. Yeah. I wanted to ask you Katie, on your website, and we you had shared about this during our retreat that you offer a healing retreat for survivors. And I think it's coming up like in January. Could you, one, I'm curious how did this container evolve? And what have you witnessed as the benefits of survivors coming together? What is the medicine in that? Yeah, I'm so glad you're asking about that. I just feel such a tenderness and a preciousness to that offering. And it's something going on nine years. So I co-facilitate a retreat for survivors, specifically of survivors of child sexual trauma. And I didn't know when I got into private practice that would be the majority of experiences that my clients are coming with. It's so prevalent. It's so common and it's often not talked about. So this retreat was birthed, I think in 2017. And at the, right before the height of the Me Too movement when so much was coming out and being revealed around the pervasiveness of sexual trauma. And even still when we were hearing about all of it none of it necessarily related to childhood sexual trauma. Or even about incest. And there's a real reason for that in that even when we're talking about uncovering what's pervasive trauma around sex and our sexual bodies, it's still very taboo to talk about childhood sexual trauma. And so this retreat was born from a survivor who said, I wanna grieve, I want a grief ritual, and I want to be in community with others. I want to know that as I'm doing some healing work and breaking this cycle of what is often. Generational cycles of sexual trauma that I'm not doing it alone. And she gathered several of us together to create an offering that not just created space for the grief work. Of healing for sex from sexual trauma, but also the embodiment practices and the joy tending and the resiliency tending, which is such a, now, eight years later, this retreat has really grown into being an offering that includes both grief and joy work. The next retreat will be in January, 2026 in California. But we're offer, oftentimes they're around the Seattle area 'cause several of US Prep facilitators are here in the Seattle area. Ooh, that's so exciting. If people wanted to find out more about the retreat that's happening in California in January, they can go to your website. They can go to my website and I don't know if you have show notes, but I can also give you the direct link. But from my website, you can find it. Survivors Healing Retreat. And that is at sacred womb services com. Katie's website is Sacred Womb Services. All of the information about the retreat can be found there. Wow. I it's, I would be fascinated to see, I didn't realize it was going on, eight, nine years. I'd be so fascinated to see the evolution of the space holding and the container, and how profound, the link between pleasure and grief. I was talking to someone recently about how, how important grief is and having the space to grieve and how interlinked pleasure and grief is. You, I think you mentioned it. Circling back to the experience of your pre or your first pregnancy and then your second orgasmic pregnancy, there's like grief and pleasure, like right there. Yeah. I often think of each of them being a portal into the other for me, sometimes when I'm having. When I really need to express some grief, but I'm having some resistance or some difficulty accessing my grief, I often feel like if I'm attending to some Downregulated pleasure or upregulated pleasure, like really using pleasure as a portal for accessing that grief. Maybe it's like a big orgasm and then a big cry comes because my body was in a place where it could actually open to feeling more. And when we feel more, right? To be able to access that deeper grief. And so I think that a lot of times our erotic practices can be. Grief tending practices. Yes. And vice versa. Having done grief work around pregnancies and losses and birth and sexual trauma, I'm just gonna say that at some point, I'll never forget, one of the people in one of my retreats said we were, doing some like embodied expressions of grief and she said, wow, this is incredibly erotic. And it was like, yes, once we start really working grief through our bodies, we can also see where breath sound movement, we can start getting into an orgasmic state with it. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it fascinating that when you focus on sensations and feeling you can find pleasure in almost anything, but also, to your point gr both open up the kind of feeling state of the body. Whether it's, pleasure opening up the capacity for grief, or feeling the grief so deeply that it leads to, deeper pleasures. Katie, as we're bringing this to a close, I just am so glad that you had such an orgasmic birth. Not only for your body and your consciousness, not only for what it must have healed intergenerationally. But because it really put you on this path, to doing what you're doing now, which is really profound, that, you're doing what you're doing as a result of your body experiencing that orgasmic birth. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yeah. Okay if people wanna find you again, Katie's website. Is Sacred Womb Services, and as she shared you're in the Seattle area. But all of the community classes I noticed they, you offer them both in person and then one online, so people can be anywhere to tune in. It's my preference is to be in person with people, to be in bodies with each other, and it feels important to also offer things directly in my community. And I also teach at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education. So this is for practitioners in training who are coming into the field of somatic sex education and sexological body work who. Get some training into both healing of their own bodies before moving into becoming practitioners for others. Yeah. I feel like that's one of the, enormous gifts that a lot of students don't realize they're actually on. It's like by studying the work you do face and you have to hold space for, your what your body's gone through sexually and so much healing takes place, as a result that was not necessarily always intentional and just so beautiful. Katie, you hold space for. Such exquisite energies to be unleashed into our world. I just wanna acknowledge that and thank you so much for who you are and everything you're doing and all that you're being. And yeah, it's a real pleasure to know you. Thanks Rahi. ...........how are the themes from this episode landing in your body right now? If you're pregnant or intending to give birth, what are ways you can attune to and embody the orgasmic wisdom of your birthing process? And if you are a prostate owner, what are the ways you can meet, feel and connect with the material awaiting you. Within this sacred portal, and for all listeners, how can befriending the deeper layers of your grief provide access to the deeper realms of your embodied pleasure? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pelvic Healing Modalities **Tags:** consent and boundaries, embodied healing, intimacy after trauma, nervous system regulation, pleasure reclamation, Rahi Chun podcast, Sacred Sexuality, sexual trauma recovery, somatic healing, template, trauma healing --- ### [Consent, Pelvic Trauma & Sexuality After Baby – Tema Mercado](https://rahichun.com/podcast/tema-mercado-birth-consent-sexuality/) **Published:** April 14, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** From trauma and numbness to cervical awakening and erotic sovereignty, Ariel Szabo explores how reclaiming pleasure restores voice, power, and embodied truth. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # Birth, Consent & Reclaiming Sexuality After Baby ### *with Tema Mercado* # ### ### ## In This Episode We explore how unacknowledged pelvic trauma — from birth, border crossings, even a first tampon — quietly shuts down a woman’s desire and sense of self long after the baby arrives. You’ll leave with a deeper understanding of how somatic consent, ancestral wisdom, and an attuned partner create the conditions for a woman to return to her body, her pleasure, and her sovereignty. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Image-empty-state.avif "Image-empty-state") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) About Our Guest: Tema Mercado is a Licensed Midwife in California, *Partera Profesional Certificada* in Mexico, and founder of La Matriz Birth in San Diego — a practice serving families on both sides of the U.S.–Mexico border. A first-generation daughter of Purépecha and Yoreme lineage, born in San Jose and raised in Mexicali, Tema brings a deeply bicultural, bilingual lens to her work that is rare in the birth world. Through La Matriz Birth, Tema offers home birth midwifery, trauma-informed pelvic care, and somatic prenatal support, weaving ancestral medicine, nervous system wisdom, and embodied consent into every aspect of care. She is committed to the belief that birth is not merely clinical — it is spiritual, ancestral, and relational — and that a woman who is truly seen and honored during birth carries that sovereignty into every part of her life. A mother of six and grandmother of two, Tema has also mentored four Spanish-speaking midwives through apprenticeship, expanding access to bilingual, bicultural birth care in underserved communities. Her work sits at the intersection of ancestral healing, restorative justice, and somatic sexual wholeness — holding space for the full tapestry of what it means to bring life into the world with dignity. ### Tema’s links: [La Matriz Birth](https://www.lamatrizbirth.com/) [Read the Full Article on Somatic Birth Healing with Somatic Exercises](https://rahichun.com/reclaiming-connection/when-birth-becomes-a-rite-of-remembering-a-conversation-with-tema-mercado/) ## What You’ll Learn About Somatic Consent and Sexuality After Birth $ Why the delivery room mirrors the same power and control dynamics as a sexual assault investigation — and what that means for postpartum healing $ How Tema’s La Matriz Birth practice weaves somatics into every prenatal visit to metabolize fear before it becomes armor in the body $ Why inviting doubt and fear into the birth space — rather than suppressing them — is one of the most protective things a midwife can do $ The story of a woman who “had no trauma” — and what her pelvis revealed when given slowness, holding, and permission to speak $ How the body registers experiences as sexual assault even when the rational mind insists otherwise, and what that means for postpartum sexual desire $ The role of spontaneous labor onset as an act of embodied consent — and why it matters especially for survivors of trauma $ How ancestral practices like belly binding and herbal medicine reconnect women to their bodies and to the earth as a source of healing $ Why a father doing skin-to-skin care in the first hours rewires his own brain — and reignites desire in his partner $ The surprising truth that postpartum loss of libido is often about feeling unsupported, not about hormones or healing time $ How remembering sovereignty through birth — being truly seen by a provider — can transform how a woman moves through the world for the rest of her life ## ## Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Somatic Sexual Healing, Pregnancy & Birth [Resolving Scar Tissue & Painful Sex After Birth](https://rahichun.com/podcast/painful-sex-postpartum-scar-tissue/) [Orgasmic Birth, Miscarriage & Pelvic Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/orgasmic-birth-miscarriage-pelvic-healing) [Consent in Birth and Medicine](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-birth-medicine-body-authority) [How Genital Armor Forms and Releases From the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) 00:00:00\] Welcome to your Body. Remembers Pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember, pleasure if something here resonates with you. You're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. What happens to a woman's body, her desire and her sense of self when birth doesn't unfold the way she expected. And how do we support her in finding her way back to agency in her own body? \[00:01:00\] My guest today is Dema Marcado midwife birth keeper and founder of Latrice Birth. As a former sexual assault advocate, DEMA began to notice something deeply concerning in delivery rooms. The same power dynamics, the same trauma responses she had witnessed in survivors. So she chose a different path. She created a birthing practice rooted in somatic consent and ancestral wisdom, and the understanding that a woman's sexuality doesn't disappear when she becomes a mother. This conversation may shift the way you understand birth. The body and what healing truly asks of us. Welcome to Somatic Sexual Wholeness. I am very excited and honored to have Tema Marcado to the podcast this morning. \[00:02:00\] I've known Tema for, I guess about six or seven, maybe seven years or so since our training. We were participants in the scar tissue remediation training a while back, but I've admired her work since and I'm so excited to have her on the podcast this morning. Tema, good morning, and thank you for joining us. Thank you, Rahi. I am. I'm really excited to be here too. Yeah. And also admiring your work from afar as well. Awesome. Well, I'm gonna introduce you and read your bio and then I'd love to, I love for us to dive in. Tema Marcado is a birth keeper educator and advocate for women-centered care across pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and pelvic care. Beyond the birth experience. Through Lama's birth, she supports women to trust their bodies. We claim physiological birth and integrate sexuality as a vital life force. Not something that disappears when motherhood \[00:03:00\] begins. DE's work bridges ancestral wisdom with contemporary somatic understanding, helping families navigate birth as a rite of passage while honoring nervous system health, consent and embodied choice. She speaks candidly about the realities of pregnancy, I should say a mother of six children herself. The politics of birth and the often ignored sexual and emotional needs of women after the baby arrives. And I also saw on your website de that restorative justice is also a huge passion and theme in your work. Dema, there's so many ways we can like dive in and. Explore so many, the, so many kind of themes that intersect in your work. You know, previously as a doula, as a midwife, as a pelvic care specialist, as a someone who really brings in cultural and ancestral lineage in your work. Um, but I'd love to start off by.\[00:04:00\] Having our audiences get, getting f to get familiar with the pivotal experiences that have shaped your journey in the work that you do now, what, what would you say were the real significant events that have shaped how you hold space and, and provide the services you do? I think definitely my own, my own birth experiences. My first two children I had when I was 16 and 22 years old, so I was very, very, very young. And at 16 years old, you know, I really felt like I was invincible. I really thought highly of myself, maybe a little too much. You know? I think it's that good teenager ego that we all have. That is very helpful. But my birth experience was incredibly disempowering, partly because I developed mild symptoms of preeclampsia during the delivery. But, um, I \[00:05:00\] remember walking away from that experience feeling like I was not invincible and that I did not know what I was doing, and that's how I entered motherhood, feeling very disempowered from a place of. Just being really like having, you know, a little ego death. But it was, it was not a positive ego death, you know, where I kind of rebuilt myself with new perspectives. It was like, you don't know what you're doing here. You think you know, but you don't, and now you have a kid because of being in survival mode in those years, I just had to get on with life, you know, and then I welcomed my second son. At 22 thinking I was older, but really just still being a baby. And I had another, I had an, you know, very similar experience with him and I just kind of put this idea of childbirth \[00:06:00\] behind me as something that is innately bad and everybody has bad experience. I remember. As a young mom, seeing other young mothers either pregnant or walking with their strollers, and I would feel bad for them. Oh my gosh. They just don't know what they have coming to them. Oh my gosh. They must be just like, I remember being in that place. You know? Like that's how I felt about. The childbirth and new motherhood experience. And I thought that that was just very normal perspective to have until 'cause this is the perspective that was being mirrored across, you know, within my communities, my families, everybody felt this way, or at least that's what it seemed like. And then eventually when I was \[00:07:00\] about. 28 years old, I went to go visit a colleague of mine, my husband's very, um, community based and charismatic, and he was like, oh, such and such just had a baby. We gotta go take food to them. And I was very much like, no, don't bother them. And he's like, come on, this is what we do. We bring them food. So we went and we took them food and I got to sit down with this. She was an acquaintance. We didn't really know one another. And I asked her how she was doing and she just began to marvel over. She told me how she had this natural birth and she had her doula and it wasn't as bad as she thought it was going to be, and she didn't tear and she had her placenta pills and she showed me her placenta print image and I remember feeling so happy for her. And simultaneously I felt so. \[00:08:00\] Sad for myself. 'cause I was like, whoa, why did I not even know this was possible? Why am I barely finding out now? And so I think that really created this like radical shift of like, oh, nobody told me that it could be this way. And all these years I thought that this was just the way it was. So that's introduced me to birth work. That was the first, well, at least the first pivot that I recognized. Obviously when we do our, when we are called into a calling and once you're in the calling and you understand it, you can look back at your life and look at all of these other moments that kind of led up to it. But I believe that was the biggest one that brought me into awareness. Wow, that's so amazing. I mean, at 28, this is 12 years after your first \[00:09:00\] birth to, wow. Okay. So Tema, after that experience, like. H help us understand your path since then, because La Lama Trees and all of what you're providing is so amazing in holding space and educating and, and nurturing and empowering your clients and families across the San Diego area, you know, and beyond. Now to have that kind of sacred birth that you didn't know was possible. Like what, what, what is informed and nourished your understanding of what's possible since then. You know, at this time when I had had this realization that birth could be different, I was kind of like in a crossroads. I wasn't working at the time. I had about a year to kind of like think, what do I wanna do next? Because we had moved from the San Jose Bay area to San Diego, and my job prior to \[00:10:00\] that was I was working as a sexual assault advocate. I was the advocate that would go to. The, um, forensic exams and also to the forensic interviews, and if it made it a trial, I used to sit at the stand with the survivors as they testified against their perpetrators. So when I, I found out about a doula, right? Because I walked outta my acquaintances home thinking like, what the heck is a doula? And I found this training and it was like, if you wanna be a doula, you have to be on call. You're gonna be called at all hours of the night. You know you're gonna be dealing with high stress situations. And I was thinking to myself like, I could do that. I was on call as an advocate. I know what it's like to be on call. I know what it's like to deal with mean detectives, condescending detectives. I know what it's like to deal with district attorneys who are not returning the survivor's calls. I was like, but this will be different 'cause we're \[00:11:00\] welcoming life into the world and it's gonna be beautiful. And so I think like within a week of having that experience with my acquaintance, I enrolled into like a doula workshop. And then it just happened really quickly after that. You know, I started like attending pro bono births for military families and. I just fell in love with it. But very shortly after, you know, attending the birds, I began to see the power and control dynamics that I was seeing with my, with, you know, in my other job when I was a sexual assault survivor advocate. Mm-hmm. I dancing the same, condescend, the same power and control dynamics in the delivery room. As I was seeing amazing at the detective interviews, except on one end, \[00:12:00\] somebody's wor was wearing a badge and on the other end somebody was wearing a white coat. Mm-hmm. And after the birth experience, you know when you're supposed to be so elated 'cause you have received this beautiful child into the world. I began seeing the same PTSD symptoms that I was seeing with my survivor clients. Amazing in the sexual thought world. So I thought to myself, I cannot continue doing this because I felt like an accomplice, because as a doula, as a doula. I'm a Sta staunch advocate, but sometimes in a very stressful situation, or when somebody's experiencing a lot of pain or somebody's afraid for their life, they feel like they're going to die, they will often bypass their actual consent because that's, they're in \[00:13:00\] survival mode, of course. And so even though I may whisper in their ears and say, you're doing fine, you got this, you're safe. If we have a provider saying, oh my gosh, if you don't get the epidural, it's only gonna hurt more. You know, like mm-hmm. Not only is it manipulative, not only is it bypassing their consent, but it's really such a violent assault on somebody who is already feeling so vulnerable. So that's when I decided I could not be a doula anymore. By then, I had fallen in love with birth work so much that I, I told myself, if I'm not gonna be a doula, then I have to become the provider because I cannot control what all other providers do. But I know that me as a provider, I can honor consent. I can honor consensus a different way, and I can \[00:14:00\] welcome babies in a way that I feel is more honorable, more humanized, more respectful, even of the baby. Like the baby's experience is also very important. So important. And a midwifery school. I went to midwifery school. Yeah, that is the midwifery part of it. Yes, I'm, you know, there's so many, there's so many questions here, DEMA, and it's amazing the journey you've taken. I find it really fascinating the parallels, the similarities that you found working as a sexual assault survivor advocate and a doula. Just kind of witnessing the power dynamics, the manipulation, the giving away of your body's, you know, voice, the body advocacy, all of that. Since we're on this topic, demo. I would love for our audiences to know what you and your organization \[00:15:00\] have instilled to make consent a priority for your clients from, from preparing for the birth throughout the birthing process, and how that is starkly different than what most people get going to the hospital. Yeah. That's a great question, and I love this question. You know, one of the privileges that I have as a community birth midwife, you know, I attend all of my births outside of the hospital setting unless we have to transfer, there's some sort of complication that requires a higher level of care. Oftentimes, I am already working with a population of people who are really searching for different kind of care, so that. Like just at once, they walk in the door like this. These are people who are very committed to not only receiving good care but who are also committed to having hard \[00:16:00\] conversations, and they are already in awareness many times of some of their trauma. So that makes things a little bit easier for me. However, some of the things that we really incorporate, we do incorporate somatics throughout the prenatal care, and this is done either through like our one hour prenatal visits. So we offer one hour prenatal visits. Sometimes it's an hour and a half, rarely. It's less than an hour though. And on some occasions we will invite them to come in to just do somatics. I work with, I have a co midwife, her name is Alex Medina, and she and I are both trained in somatics. So we can offer this to our clients in the prenatal time and the amount of informed consent and education that goes into rethinking everything. Everything from. \[00:17:00\] This test that we're doing, this screening that you're doing, I mean, we are asking them so many times, how's this information landing for you? What are you noticing right now? Or, you know, like we really bring in somatics so that we can really get to know them and so that we can help them understand where some of their resistance is at. We really welcome. Their doubts and their fears around childbirth. I find that in a more romanticized version of birth keeping or attending, you might find somebody who will say something like, only positive mindset. Don't invite, don't even invite a bad thought into this birth space. But I think that that is a disservice. I, I always tell my clients, if you are feeling doubt, if you are scared, let's call that in. What is happening? You know, like what is \[00:18:00\] happening for you that is making you doubt or maybe you're afraid of something happening. And so we really invite them to talk about it, unpack it, and remove some of the charge. Yes. And so not only does this allow them to look at what a cesarean birth might look like, but we get to give them education. Also we remove that charge for them so that if that totally is what ends up happening, we can work with it from a place of understanding less from a place of, oh my gosh, my worst fear came through this, that I'm not good enough. This must mean something. Mm-hmm. You know? So we try to really even reduce the shame that might come with. You know, in birth, things are, you don't, we can't, I can't \[00:19:00\] promise somebody their birth outcome because it's so vast. Mm-hmm. And we're working with life as, you know what I mean? Like there's nothing, I mean, it's so big. It's life. So it's life. The only thing, the only thing I could really ensure is that we walk. Next to them through that process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That they don't have to do that alone. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, what I'm hearing Tema is, you know, when you talk about you, you're really empowering them with their own body's wisdom as you're guiding them through a somatic attunement of what they're feeling, feeling their fears, where's their resistance. So it's almost like you're preempting any kind of. Unwelcome trauma that may happen during the, the birthing, but also in preparation for the birthing. I mean that emphasis \[00:20:00\] on inviting them to feel and attune to what their bodies are actually wanting and feeling and giving them the space to express. It sounds like you're really empowering them with their own body's wisdom. Yeah. And giving them permission to feel versus trying to suppress. Away. Mm-hmm. Really giving permission to feel. Mm-hmm. Because at home, when you're giving birth, we're not gonna give you suppression for, for your experience, your bodily sensations. And so in a sense, we're also trying to prepare them to listen to their body bodily needs. We want them to. As much as possible trust their body, even if their body is telling them something is wrong, or to trust their body to say, I can do this, or the baby's \[00:21:00\] coming in my practice, it's very rare that we do cervical exams, and so oftentimes my clients ask me, how do I know I'm going to push when it's time to push if you're not gonna check me? It's like, well, your body will tell you. And you will feel the sensations once the baby is low enough. And so we're really just trying to not just prepare them for the birth. The birth is monumental, but we really want them to walk away from their birth and their postpartum feeling whole and feeling like, yeah, they can parent and they can be, I. Who they are as you know, perfect humans, and also being able to parent from a place of a deeper knowing versus a shame or not trusting. Mm-hmm. Their \[00:22:00\] instincts, not trusting their, the way that their body speaks to them, because this is not only gonna be good for them and their lifelong reproductive health, but it's also gonna be good for. The child that they've invited into the world. Yeah. I find that, you know, people don't realize how critical that sacred process is not only in changing their bodies, but the life and the kind of behavioral patterns of the infant, the quality and the safety of that birth. Um. Tema, I wanna ask you, how has your culture and the ancestral lineage, the wisdom of your lineage informed the work that you do? Because I remember, I remember, you know, in the scar remediation training, you had talked about the binding process, you know, post-birth and how to support the mother's belly to heal. And it \[00:23:00\] seemed, I remember you brought in some fajas and, and so I'm curious how your. Cultural traditions and lineage have informed what it is, the services that you provide now for your clients. Yeah. You know, I think myself, you know, in, in my own journey of try of reclamation and of remembering these ancestral practices, for me it's, I'm also trying, you know, it's a reclamation process for myself, but in particular, it's also a way of reminding families that we often have a lot of the medicine already within our homes. So if I am, for example, a couple of weeks ago, I, I had a family who had a postpartum hemorrhage at home and we had to \[00:24:00\] find ways to rebuild her blood and we were talking about some of the herbal. The herbal remedies that could be used. And the moment that I mentioned this one particular herb, it's called the Father's Eyes, lit Up, and he said, yes, my mom used to give me that when I was anemic as a child. That helped my blood platelets come back up. And so it's really beautiful to have these moments where I'm reinforcing some of the. Cultural heritage, knowledge and medicine and reminding them like, yeah, that's right. You know how to heal yourself. And I'm here to remember, remind you of this. I also feel like it's a way of just kind reconnecting to the earth. And for me, you know, when I think about a mother who has a child, you know, a birth giver who has a child, that \[00:25:00\] birth giver, right, is like the. Original ecosystem of the baby. And if we scale back, the larger e ecosystem for humanity is the earth. And we know that unfortunately, the way that we treat the earth is the way that we treat birth givers. It's not that great. We are really it. We really disparage the earth. We do not. Tend to the earth. We're not respectful of the, of ecosystems. We really take and extract from the earth, and I feel that that is reflective in the way that we take care of birth givers and mothers. So when we, when I have little tiny opportunities to remind people how special the earth is and how these plants can help us heal. I feel like it's \[00:26:00\] also reminding us how to take care of mothers and how to appreciate mothers. Right. The earth gives us weekly. Mm-hmm. Women give us milk through their breast, you know, so I feel like it's, it's all really connected. We were able to raise her hemoglobin by two points within a week's time. And for those of you who are clinicians, you know that that is. Kind of unheard of if you don't, if you're not doing a blood transfusion. Mm-hmm. So I guess, I suppose that is one that is one way in regards to the belly binding. For me, belly binding is also a somatic practice. You know, we have like tapping or sometimes we have, uh, there's like different. Things that you can do to help people feel themselves, their body, whether it be tapping their knees or tapping from right to left to kind \[00:27:00\] of help them feel their physical body well in postpartum. The binding does that as well because those first three days postpartum and you feel, you can feel a little loopy, a little just, you know, trying to fi discombobulated like. Trying to understand what's happening in your body. There's so many changes and I find that the binding helps people feel themselves again. They yes, feel more contained. They feel embraced. Mm-hmm. And then also, it's such a loving act to rub somebody's belly, think their uterus. I'll often tell my clients like, do you wanna feel u your uterus? And I'll help them palpate their uterus so that they can feel. How large the uterus is postpartum. I'll teach the mother-in-law that's in town how to do the binding, and so then that becomes a loving \[00:28:00\] act. Or I'll teach the partner to do the binding. Just very basic, like just back to basics. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds so sweet. I love that. The whole, um, yeah, the, just what you shared about teaching the mother-in-law. I mean, it's just, it's such a beautiful thing to involve the whole family and the whole community. Tim, I have a question and that is, I wanna get back to consent and how I, the role of consent and choice during the birthing process affects someone's postpartum recovery and also recovers their. Sexuality, postpartum. 'cause I'm, I'm imagining that because in a hospital setting so much, you know, as you mentioned, the power dynamics and the, the, the urgency and the, the, the, when consent and choice goes out the window, I'm guessing that that really affects someone's postpartum recovery and their self-perception of \[00:29:00\] how well they did. Or was it a successful birth, but also. Their agency over their body. When it comes to sexuality, this is a big one, and it can look different for everyone. You know, there's sometimes where we kind of forfeit consent because there's a true life or death emergency, right? And so there might be like a rationalization of. I didn't want to have an emergency cesarean, but I understand that this is what was the best thing for my child, you know, or for myself. And so that can be really, really hard to consolidate when inside of the body you feel you felt. You know that you had a near death experience, or that you planned, you did all the things that you could, resources, time, consciousness to have, you know, a, let's \[00:30:00\] say a unmedicated water birth at home, and you got the extreme opposite. It could feel like a betrayal of. Life or destiny or fate. And that's really hard to consolidate when you understand the that rational side, right? Like, well, you know, my baby needed to come out immediately. I don't know, maybe there was an infection or maybe heart tones were. Came down really low. And when I see people who come to me with this kind of a story, it's oftentimes because now they're pregnant again and they're trying to find either a new provider and it, this is hard because sometimes they had another midwife, and even though it wasn't the midwife's fault. They attach that midwife to \[00:31:00\] that story. Right, of course. And so then they come to a new midwife hoping to have, not wanting to have that kind of memory, or maybe there was one little thing that the midwife said, or one little thing that the midwife did, and then everything gets hinged on that one thing. So it's really quite complex and there's lots, a lots, a lots of layers and mm-hmm. That's why the, the prenatal care and the somatic sessions during the prenatal care are really important because again, yeah, I can't promise, I can't promise that things will be different, but I did wanna share, there's this one story that continues surfacing for me and, um, this was during, um, we had a, like a free community trauma-informed. Pap clinic a couple of years ago, or a few years ago, and a woman came in, she \[00:32:00\] was maybe about eight or 10 months postpartum, and she needed to have a pap smear, and she had had, mm-hmm. A birth. And you know, as we're doing the somatic sessions, I'm trying to ask her, you know, you know, if there's anything that she's concerned about or, um, you know, why she's seeking trauma informed pap smear. And she was like, actually, I don't have any trauma at all. She was like, I don't have any trauma. I just needed this to, you know, it's a free pap. I need to have a pap. And so I was like, okay, like. Great. And I said, well, we're still gonna go through all the steps because it was a teaching clinic. And so we're going through all of the steps and sure enough things begin to surface for her. And so this is, she had had an okay kind of sort of birth experience that left her with some pretty severe incontinence. So she was worrying a \[00:33:00\] pessary and she. Her baby was almost a year postpartum, and she had not resumed intercourse with her partner. And when she explained this to us, she was like, it's not that I don't wanna be with him. She was like, but it's also that I don't wanna be with him. She was like, I just have no interest in sex. So she was like, there's no trauma or anything, there's no issues with me and my partner. So everything was very like, I'm just here for my pap, just do my pap. So before we insert a speculum, you know, we do this whole process. We do the bone holds, we do a pubic bone hold, a vulva hold. We're just like very, you know, we're, um, disarming the pelvis little by little. And there is a moment where we go from vulva hold with a sheet, you know, in between. The hands and the vulva. Mm-hmm. To ova hold with a gloved hand and directly \[00:34:00\] on the skin and mm-hmm. I begin seeing her kind of like processing and I could see that things are beginning to surface and I ask her, what's happening for you right now? Yeah. And she just kind of like shakes her head and our reminder. It's okay. Like all of your feelings are are welcome here. Your body's trying to speak to you and she says, I'm having this memory and I'm thinking she's gonna go back to her birth. She says, I was crossing the border, um, a few months ago and I was sent over to secondary inspection and while in secondary inspection. They, they x-rayed my car and they X-rayed me and they saw the pessary that was inside of my vagina and because \[00:35:00\] they didn't know what it was, one of the border patrol agents had to do a digital exam to make sure it wasn't, I wasn't trafficking drugs. And she's sharing this. Right. And I can, I can see her trying to like regulate and to suppress it. And we're all the while we're still holding her, all the, oh. What was interesting was that she kept on asking for more pressure. More pressure. She needed us to really, really hold her. Yeah. And um, so there was numbness, there was like armor there. Yes. Yes. And then she goes on to say, she was saying. I know it wasn't a sexual assault. I know it wasn't a sexual assault. She was like, but that's what it felt like. But I know it wasn't like, so her rational brain was trying to, you know, she had walked away from that experience with her rational brain saying, Hey, this is what happens at the border \[00:36:00\] sometimes. But her body registered it as a sexual assault worse. It was just so powerful because we gave her a moment to recognize that's how her body was feeling, and so we gave her this moment. Yes, we gave her body and herself to make this connection with her experience, and I believe, you know, that's why Somatics is so amazing, but also the slow pace. Like every single time we would ask her, how do you know you're ready to move on to the next step? She'd be like, because, you know, I feel safe. Okay. How do you know you feel safe? We were trying to really make that mind body connection of like, this is what it's like to feel safe. This is what it's like Yes. To, to really say yes and in mm-hmm. Making those \[00:37:00\] neural connections. I believe she was able to go back to that point and be like, oh. That time was not like this time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, that, that just kept on surfacing for me. You know, that it's not always about the birth experience. It could be, I had somebody who. Had a tampon that was stuck inside of them for the, uh, during the very first menstruation, and she felt so humiliated take being taken to her pediatrician to get it removed, you know, so. Mm-hmm. Many of these moments, they trickle into our sexual health. They can trickle into how we feel about ourselves when it comes to birth. It's all just a big woven trap tapestry. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so, \[00:38:00\] uh, that that example is so telling and so reflective of so many things. Tema, the beauty of inviting the client to feel into their sensations, their emotions. I feel like so much of the buried trauma in our bodies are because we're not giving ourselves the spaciousness to feel. What our authentic feelings are regarding that experience and what you did with this client Allowed her to get in touch with it and metabolize it and you know, only then can it dissolve and, and release from the body. This brings up a fascinating question for me, Tema, and we touched a little bit upon it before we started the interview and that is. You know, all of those kinds of experiences that live in the pelvis, that live in the genitalia, whether it's past violations or a past traumatic birth experience, I'm guessing \[00:39:00\] in the birthing process, so many of those memories come to the surface. Maybe for the first time since those traumatic events happened in order to metabolize. Yes, it can happen. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes they're so buried though that they don't surface fully until postpartum though. Mm-hmm. Because in labor, yes, in labor, we will sometimes see people completely clench. We'll hear people really screaming as if they're being attacked all over again. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, when we're doing a cervical exam or attempting to do one, if one is needed or called for, we can sometimes feel how the pelvic floor and all the soft tissues are not soft. They're, yeah, \[00:40:00\] completely guarded. So that is why for one. Spontaneous labor is really super important. You know, when you're working with somebody who is, when you're working with somebody who is low risk and is healthy, it's so important to wait for labor to begin spontaneously. And this is important, spontaneous because yes, this is when you know your bag of water breaks on its own or contractions start on its own. There's there we're not inducing, so already we're beginning from a place. Of embodied consent because the body and the baby are all in alignment of it's time for it's time for this to happen. And also there's often a gradual onset to labor, particularly for first time birth givers. And so this gradualness allows people's psyche. To slowly get \[00:41:00\] initiated into this first thing that the birth that they're doing for the very, very, very first time, and that is a more gentle process than being induced than just. It's a little bit more, um, it could be a little bit more intense. Um mm-hmm. Because we are artificially creating contractions or artificially mechanically opening up the pelvis, if at all possible. Waiting for spontaneous labor could be really helpful for somebody who has a history of trauma for many reasons, right? One, it's. The best thing we can do for the pregnancy and the baby and the birth giver's body. But two is that slow gradualness, so that's, that's really important. And then the environment that is created prior to planning for the \[00:42:00\] home birth. We talk in detail about who's gonna be around at your birth. We ask people to think really carefully, like, do both grandmothers really need to be in the room? You know, um mm-hmm. Does your high stress, high anxiety sister really need to be present for the birth? So we really look at the entire environment, even placing lighting, um, ensuring that they feel comfortable with the midwifery team. All of that is so really important. And then obviously, hopefully by the time that we are in the birth setting. The birth team has a good grasp at the languaging that they use, right? Because some languaging is can be triggering for, for individuals. So we learn how to speak in a way that is non triggering to them. We even \[00:43:00\] go over certain things like birth complications, you know, and I tell people ahead of time if there's truly a birth complication. The tone of my voice will change. You will hear the tone of my voice change. Mm-hmm. And this is so that everybody can clearly hear what needs to happen next so that I can take good care of you so I can take good care of your baby. So I even explained those things beforehand so that they don't go from sweet midwife voice, all prenatal care, and then all of a sudden at the birth. If they hear me do a shift, and that could be also very dysregulating and scary for somebody. Sure. Sure. I wanna ask that example of the woman with the pessary and, and who was with the invasive procedure at the border and how she, 10 months after giving birth, just lost interest in sex. You know, \[00:44:00\] that it's staying with me because I'm, I, the question I want to ask de is. For clients to resume a healthy sexual life and and relations post birth. Are there things in particular, are there ways that you prepare your clients for that post birth? Because clearly all of the. Attunement somatic attunement and the consent are huge, huge factors for them to feel really empowered during the birthing process. I'm wondering, in the postpartum, are there any ways to support a healthy resuming of a vibrant sex life for them? Yeah, I would say that in some cases it's automatic. You know, somebody is, you know, at their six week appointment and they're like, Hey, can you just. Take a good check down there, make sure that my tear healed. Mm-hmm. Because we we're really looking forward to resuming sexual intercourse. \[00:45:00\] But there are times where I will find clients who will say things like, I'm not even thinking about that. It's not even in my, it hasn't even made it into radar bots. And sometimes that's simply because. The first six weeks can be really hard if you have a baby who is not allowing you to sleep. And so sometimes it's just simply waiting out that newborn period. 'cause if you're not sleeping well, you don't have good sex hormones in you at all. And this can be true even for. The father, especially if the father or the other birth parent is also waking up at night every hour, every two hours, not feeding themselves correctly. You know what I mean? Like, just like the, if the basics are not there for both parents, then \[00:46:00\] the sexual desire goes out the white side sometimes. So for me, one of the things that we talk about. Is is about, um, the co-parenting that needs to happen. What I find is that sometimes women will not want to engage intimately because they don't find, because, um, they don't feel supported. There is like all of the other ways that you could be intimate and loving to somebody. Is not there. Mm-hmm. And so very early on, you know, once the baby is born and it's the first time that mom needs to get up to use the restroom, we tell Dads, take off your shirt. You're going to do skin to skin now because you need to attune to this baby. This baby needs to know that you too are a safe person. That you two can put this baby to sleep, that you two can change the diapers that you two will get up in the middle of the night to \[00:47:00\] help. And in building that relationship with the baby gets to know that two people that, that they have two people that are their safe thoughts. Maybe only one of, maybe only one of them can have milk come flow through them. Um, right. And so we really, really try to encourage the non-birth parents. Yes. To begin to extend to the baby. 'cause something's really special happens when, mm-hmm. A father or a non-birth parent begins to do a lot of that newborn care stays up with them, smells them, swaddles them, changes their diaper, burps them, their amygdala begins to also change. They begin to attune to the baby as well. And if their amygdala changes, if their gray \[00:48:00\] matter also changes, this makes them more attentive to the birth parent as well. And so it becomes this really beautiful feedback loop amongst all three of them. And if the, if the mother, if the birth giver can find. Soulless and comfort that her partner is going to be with her throughout those long nights. Bring her water. Yeah. Take care of the other things. That is a, those are romantic acts, you know, to know that those are so romance. Yeah. To know like, oh my gosh, my partner, like I feel, you know, for me and my husband, it was so beautiful because he, you know, we had. We have six kids, so we definitely had practice. He would sing to me. He would sing to me after the babies were born. You know, he would tie up a drum and he would sing to me like songs of gratitude. He'd \[00:49:00\] make sure that our favorite foods were available. He'd make sure that the big kids didn't feel neglected, you know, so that I could sleep. And so we were in love. This was a time of being in love versus me resenting him. Versus me. Yes. Not wanting to feeling like I'm doing things by myself. And so then that creates that right natural progression of I'm loved, I'm supported. Oh my gosh, I see my husband holding the baby and I'm melting. I think that if that is, is not there. If we don't have those kind of dynamics in place, and if we don't have the correct resources to support that family in that cri critical time, then things like intimacy feel like the last thing on their mind totally makes total sense. I'm really \[00:50:00\] curious, Tema, obviously the work that, that you and La Matrics birth do is to support, like, here's a question because that kind of education needs to be, needs to focus on the, uh, mother's partner do. Is that part of what you guys do at, at La Matrics birth is, is bring the whole family in because that's what it really takes for a successful birth to happen. Yes. As much as possible we invite parents to come to the prenatal visits, particularly if they're having their very first baby. And we also talk about it very candidly, right? So we might have hard conversations like, what was it like your first, your with your first baby? You know? And I've had, I've had mothers say, I wasn't supported. I resented my partner, I envied my partner. Mm-hmm. Because my partner got to sleep and I didn't get to sleep. Um, so we have those conversations and, \[00:51:00\] you know, sometimes I'm working with, it's, it's really curious to see all of the different types of dynamics, but I will sometimes see. Mothers who are unwilling to let go of tasks, they're unwilling to receive support even though we have a willing partner. And so then this kind of shows us the relationship dynamics and it yes, you know, we, we thread carefully because we only can support them if they're really open to that, right? So sometimes we are having conversations about. You're gonna have to let your partner put the older kids to bed. I know that this is your routine, but this new baby is coming. Or maybe you decided not to suture your tears and now you have to stay in bed. You're go, you know, these are the things that have to happen to honor your healing. Hmm. But also to honor the relationship of the other parent \[00:52:00\] with those children, and how important it is for children to have more than one person that they can securely. Attached to and how important it is for a father to feel confident as a parent. So yes, we have these conversations with them prenatally. We talk about these things before we discharge from home because we give the father responsibilities. You are gonna take the temperature every four hours. That's what you're responsible for. Yeah. Yeah, you're responsible for the P'S and the Ps. I want you to count them. I want you to see them. I want you to feel how heavy they are. And so then when we go into do these postpartum visits, I'm asked, I'm, I'm following up on, on dad's on daddy's homework. And so this is not to, this is to really, this is how you include, right? This is how \[00:53:00\] you include them. And as a midwife, I try my very best to not leave it all on the birth parent, of course. And I'll ask them like, okay dad, oh my gosh, what are you gonna make for, because sometimes we like just even something simple, for example. I could say like, let's say it's time for the postpartum meal because baby's been born. Instead of asking the mom, what would you like to eat? We turn around and we looked at the data and we say, what are you going to prepare for her? What do you have prepared for her? How can we help you prepare something for her so that even the mental load of deciding what they're going to eat, we remove that off of their plate. That's great. Mm-hmm. That is so great. Tema Lama Trees. Birth is People can find you and, and your work@lamatricbirth.com. And in \[00:54:00\] addition to home birth midwifery and trauma-informed pelvic care, I know you guys offer workshops and courses as well. Can you share a little bit about the mission and vision of Lama Three's birth? Lama Three's birth was created specifically for midwifery purposes, you know, to be able to offer out of hospital birth services. And I named it La Matress birth because I wanted to make sure that it was, um, inviting to Spanish speaking communities. That was really important to me. And yes. Because even though in San Diego we have so many amazing and abundant amount of home birth midwives, at the time when I launched my business, I was the only fully bicultural bilingual midwife at the time. So wow. I \[00:55:00\] guess that would be another one of my missions is to support more bilingual, bicultural midwives. Um. Today I've helped four, four Spanish speaking midwives through apprenticeship and preceptorship through LAMA birth. So creating more bilingual midwives is important to me. Um, yes. And then of course, offering the trauma-informed skills to providers who are offering pelvic care. Yes, I've had some people come and train with with me, and yeah, I'm, I'm hoping to be able to do more of that in the future as well. Cool. Cool. Tema, um, we're about to wrap up, but before we do, I think it's just so incredible how you've taken your own personal experience. You know, your, your first birth experiences were \[00:56:00\] so disempowering that, that you would see pregnant women and feel sorry for them, and now you are just holding this process, this sacred process of birthing in such an exquisite way. To wrap up, I would love to know, 'cause you've shared the experiences you had at 16 and 22. I would love to know how that compares to your most recent birthing experiences. 'cause I know you have six children. Yeah. Well, of my six children, um, I gave birth to five of them. My last three birth experiences were with home birth midwives, and I believe the first. Was a birth center birth and the last two were were home births. And by this time I was already in my birth work journey. And I think that for me, the most important part of that process was remembering my autonomy, my self agency, my sovereignty, and seeing \[00:57:00\] how. The midwives really respected me and saw me. That was really transformative and it allowed me, it has allowed me to walk in this world feeling more certain of myself and feeling more certain about my intuition, the things that I feel, and that led me into becoming a midwife that really ushered me into midwifery, and that's what I want for. Anybody who I get to support is that I want them to really remember who they are, you know, and who we are in our essence, you know, in our natural blue blueprint, so that when we walk around in this world and we're making decisions and choices, that it feels as authentic as possible. How is today's episode landing for you and your body? Right now,\[00:58:00\] are there emotions connected to your birth experience that are asking to be felt held or honored? And if you're preparing for birth, what somatic awareness, what self attunement, what partner practices might support you, your baby, and your family. And what of these can your beloved step into to initiate, to hold, and to support you? You'll find links to TE's work along with a companion blog article featuring somatic pelvic practices related to this conversation in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure. \[00:59:00\] If this conversation supported you in remembering pleasure, safety, or aliveness, you're invited to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You words help this work, reach others who may be finding their way back home to their bodies. You will find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![Promo banner for a free 16-minute Genital Breathing Meditation with The Genital Awakening Checklist and the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/GenitalBreathingPodShownotes.jpg "GenitalBreathingPodShownotes | Rahi Chun") *Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember.* ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) ###### Plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** Conscious Birthing, Doula, La Matriz Birth, Pre-natal Care, Sexual Assault Rahi Chun, Sexuality After Birth, Somatic Consent, Tema Mercado --- ### [The Sex Problem Is Relational Geometry: Intimacy & Connection](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sex-problem-is-relational-geometry/) **Published:** September 24, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Rahi Chun explores the groundbreaking work of Ali Mezey, creator of Personal Geometry. Rooted in decades of somatic practice and inspired by Family Constellations, Personal Geometry maps relational dynamics around trauma, intimacy, and sexuality that had been invisible - now for the client to see, feel and change. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # The Sex Problem Is Relational Geometry: Intimacy & Connection ### *with Ali Mezey* ### ### ## In This Episode We explore how sexual challenges are often rooted in relational dynamics rather than physical issues. You’ll learn how patterns of connection, communication, and polarity shape intimacy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/AliFB_.webp "Ali+FB_ | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) About Our Guest: Ali Mezey’s professional healing arts practice spans over 40 years. At 19, she became a certified massage therapist – then returned to Wellesley College to explore her lifelong fascination with the relationship between the body, personality, and culture. In Los Angeles, she became the “body therapist to the stars.” Inspired by Constellation Work – she later trained as a facilitator with some of the best trainers in the world: Jane Peterson, Stephan Hausner, JoAnne and Dyrian Chartrand-Benz, Francesca Mason-Boring, Sneh Victoria Schnabel, Peter DeVries; and at German intensives: Bert Hellinger, Gunthard Weber, Albrecht Mahr, Jakob Schneider, and Judith Hemming among others. She began facilitating Constellation Work professionally in 2011 and soon after also integrated her certification in the sister modality, Walking-In-Your-Shoes™. She became California State Certified in Sexological Bodywork in 2016, learned pelvic scar tissue remediation and deepened her skills in working with sexual trauma while facilitating for five years at The Center for Healthy Sex in Los Angeles, as well as The Meadows Malibu, The Hills, and New Spirit Recovery – streamlining Constellation Work into her method, Personal Geometry®. She specializes in addiction: both substance and behavioral with a particular focus on sexual addiction and compulsivity. ### Ali’s Links: [AliMezey.com](https://www.alimezey.com/) [The Brilliant Body Podcast](https://www.alimezey.com/the-brilliant-body-podcast) [Personal Geometry](https://www.alimezey.com/personal-geometry-and-constellation-work) ## What You’ll Learn About Relational Dynamics & Sexual Connection $ The Body as Epicenter of Intelligence: Ali challenges the common dualism of “self in a body,” affirming instead that we are our body—with memory, subconscious, and wisdom stored in tissues $ Early Initiation into Body Awareness: Her journey began with dance at age four, injuries as a teen, and became a massage therapist by 19, which opened the path of a lifetime devotion to body-based intelligence $ From Bodywork to Family Constellations: Years of somatic practice led her to Systemic Constellations and Walking in Your Shoes, deepening her work with embodied resonance and generational trauma $ Personal Geometry as a Healing Modality: Ali developed Personal Geometry, a method of mapping spatial relationships to externalize unconscious dynamics—especially around sexuality, addiction, and trauma $ Addiction as Misplaced Support: Through body mapping, she shows how addictions often function as “behind-the-back support” when parents or partners were absent, offering a somatic reframe of compulsive behaviors. $ Heart–Sexuality Split: Many people live with a misalignment between heart and sexuality. Personal Geometry makes this visible, allowing clients to reposition and re-integrate these forces $ Orgasm Complexity Beyond Technique: Orgasm isn’t just physiological—it is shaped by unresolved relationships, trauma, beliefs, and social conditioning. Mapping reveals hidden blocks and possibilities $ Emotional Incest and Relational Loyalties: She highlights how “emotional incest”—when a parent relies on a child for emotional partnership—creates unconscious loyalty conflicts that block adult intimacy $ Erotic Intimacy as Portal of Healing: Ali frames sexual intimacy, when rooted in safety and authenticity, as an unparalleled arena for deep healing, alchemy, and reclamation of life force ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [Trauma lives in the body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) [Healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [The pace of trust in trauma healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [Somatic consent and touch awareness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were never taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a Sexological Bodyworker, and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. In today's episode, we explore the extraordinary work of Ali Mezey. Before we dive in, let me introduce you to one of the practices that shaped her path, family Constellations therapy, which we discuss in our interview. Family Constellations is a therapeutic approach that reveals hidden dynamics within families. In a group, people volunteer to act as representatives standing in for parents, siblings, ancestors, or even abstract forces. Amazingly, without knowing details, these representatives begin to feel and express the emotions and truths of those they represent. In this way, invisible loyalties, unresolved traumas and family patterns become visible in the room through the constellation. Rahi: Now, building on this and informed by "Walking in Your Shoes" and decades of working with bodies, Ali created her own method called Personal Geometry. Instead of needing a whole group of people, she often uses post-it notes or colored pieces of paper placed on the floor to diagram internal body maps of any relationship. As clients feel into these positions, they experience what had been invisible. This simple, yet profound mapping process externalizes the subconscious, allowing us to see, move, and transform the patterns that have been shaping intimacy, sexuality, and relationships. In our conversation today, Ali explains how she developed this method, how efficiently it can reveal the dynamics between clients and their sexual issues, how it heals splits between heart and sexuality, and why erotic intimacy is one of the greatest portals for healing. Now, let's dive in. Rahi: Today we're in for a real special treat. We have Ali Mezey, sexologist and somatic therapist with over 40 years of professional experience in reclaiming your brilliant body. Um, in introducing Ali there, there's just so much rich material and experiences that have been formed. Her wisdom and perspective. Um, you know, uh, she was a dancer growing up. She was, uh, certified as a massage therapist by age 19, which gives gives you a sense of, um, how early, you know, like at such a young age, like understanding the body. Um, she has developed a, uh, specific way of body mapping called Proprio Massage Integrated Body Mapping that leads to pattern changes, somatic pattern changes, and she has also developed a fascinating modality called Personal Geometry, which is informed by, um, family or systemic constellations and walking in your shoes. Um, you know, there's so, there's so much, uh, to Ally's, uh, uh, journey that, um, I'm very, very excited to have her here with us on the podcast today. Thanks for joining us, Ali, Ali: Thanks for having me, Rahi. I'm so excited to be here, and I'm so grateful for how succinctly you summarized, you know, this almost 50 year journey that I've been on. Amazing. Definitely. And personally longer than that, so thank you for just putting it in such a gorgeous little basket of information there. Rahi: Yes, yes. And, you know, of course, that's just like, I, I'm just, I mean, that's not all of it. Um, you know, we wanna hear about your five years as a sexologist at the Center for Healthy Sex. Yeah. I'd love to say in Los Angeles. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but, you know, as a, as a jumping off point, I often ask guests like, what were the pivotal experiences, um, or events that have informed your, you know, journey and really kind of this rich array of, um, you know, experiences and trainings that have informed your work. Ali: So, I'm actually gonna start, because I've been thinking about this more today before coming to be with you. I took my first dance class at four and had the experience of getting to just move as a body, and then soon became injured. Soon then, thanks to my dear mother, uh, was introduced to massage therapy at 16 when I had too many injuries. And the moment I experienced that, it just opens something in me. So that then when I left school between my freshman and, um, sophomore year and wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, I was in this, you know, heavy duty academic environment, and I grew up in a very intellectual environment. I decided I wanted a trade. I wanted to really do something that was body oriented that I could practice throughout my life, regardless of whether I went on to higher education, which ultimately I decided not because my whole life so far has been about being a, an advocate for the intelligence for the body, which included a lot of having to find and come into respect of my own kind of indigenous intelligence that was so natural to me. Ali: So body-based in an environment, in a culture, in a family system that was much more, um, emphatic about the importance of cognitive intelligence, which we all have really indoctrinated with. So I've always been super drawn to fascinated, um, concerned with how is it that our bodies can communicate within ourselves to all aspects of ourselves. And by the way, I'm not somebody who thinks of myself as being separate, um, the self and then I'm in my body, which I have a lot of difficulty with. You and I have talked about that. Mm-hmm. I continue to mm-hmm . Rampage about about that mm-hmm . That in, um, inherent dualism that's even within the grammar, the prepositions that we use. Oh, I'm the self in this body. My experience, uh, and my journey both personally and also professionally, has always been how can I become ever more detailed in my conscious awareness of my tissues, my experience, all the memories, the what people term, the subconscious that I believe is the body. Ali: We are this body while we're alive as this particular form. And it is, it is mm-hmm . Equably related to all of what we've experienced, both personally, culturally, um, trans-generationally after becoming a massage therapist. And even though I ended up getting a bachelor's, I still did a thesis all about the body called the aesthetic of the human form and what our bodies, how our bodies reflect who we are, how our bodies affect how we live, and how we live affects our body and our body experience. So I have continued to be on this journey eventually, many, many years later, um, discovered family constellation work. Um, and that was a revelation to me to really even, you know, deepen this experience of within seconds being able to attune to and resonate and tap into pretty much anyone or anything as a what. Mm-hmm . Constellation work is called a representative in walking in Your shoes, a concurrent sort of sister method to constellation work, we call it walking. Ali: So just by attuning to the body and setting an intention of what that our whole antenna as a body being wants to connect to, we can get a massive amount of information that will illuminate whatever it is we're concerned about. So those are particularly big things as well as mm-hmm . Personal journey involving also trauma and triumphs and all kinds of things. That was always focused on sexuality. I've just always been a body person. Mm-hmm . Been a very sexual person and always fascinated by sexuality, and was fortunate enough to grow up with a mother who welcomed my curiosity about sexuality. So she, I always knew where the books were, where I could read about it, just allow questions. So I'm unusually comfortable talking about sexuality, which is why Joseph Colt, the head of "Walking in Your Shoes," who co-founded it with Alex Kakis, who founded the Center for Healthy Sex. Ali: Oh. That's how Joseph recommended me to Alex. And amazingly Wow. He took a huge, um, gamble on me to come in and do the somatic portion of these intensive, um, IOP, you know, outpatient treatments for people dealing with sexual compulsivity and addiction. So that's how I, I see developed personal geometry, because even though I'd been working for decades as a body worker and working in a very particular way, really with the three dimensionality of the body and the intelligence of proprioception, which is particularly in all the joints, and helping people to really bring their conscious awareness again in detail to all the system, all the body, all the movement, all the memories, all the capacity that the body has to be that much more aware of self, but also aware of others and the world and the universe ultimately. Mm-hmm . Free. Mm-hmm . It's free out. Ali: Mm-hmm . You know, the, the life force that we all have been gifted with, so mm-hmm . Family constellation work, even though I was transitioning. 'cause by then I was in my early fifties and I was starting to age out of doing body work, and I've had multiple injuries myself and still grapple with injuries, which by the way have been a big teacher. Very informative, um, in all kinds of ways. That's an interesting topic in itself, is how does pain and restriction become a great teacher if we allow it to mm-hmm . Um, yeah. But I quickly found that constellation work, which is basically, and I'm sorry because I'm a great lover of constellation work, um, is basically really channeling ancestors. It's , it's got a big focus. Mm-hmm . Obviously on transgenerational, I shouldn't say obviously, 'cause people may not know about it, but it's all about transgenerational trauma and how that passes on through the generations when we exclude certain people, certain experiences, certain, um, uh, you know, traumas, family members mm-hmm . Ali: They'll pass on. And we, as sensitive beings who are part of the web of a whole family system, might then start to express unconsciously and quite loyally, um, some of these issues and problems. And for me, first of all, within the context of sometimes only getting half an hour in a clinical environment, there wasn't any time to go to multiple generations. Most of the clients were these very left brain alpha dudes. Some were women, um, but most of them mm-hmm . Were very defended, very dissociated, um, detoxing either, uh, chemically Mm. Psychologically they were away from their families. And it was enough for them just to see me come in with a stack of colored mats and think that I was gonna make them do some sort of, you know, art therapy or something that was gonna be embarrassing or ridiculous or, or just wimpy in some way that was gonna be too foreign. Ali: So what I really focused on more and more with personal geometry is that we have this innate language that is embedded. It is how we survive. And that language is spatial relationship. Almost everybody, unless there's been some kind of brain damage, or maybe in some unusual cases, or maybe if you're on the spectrum in some way, your sense of three dimensionality is altered in some way. But most of us have to always know who and what, and where we are as three dimensional beings in a mostly three dimensional environment. So whether that's a purely physical thing of I know where I'm sitting now in relation to the door, in relation to the screen, in relation to my dog, or whether it's I have this feeling of being encroached upon in an energetic way by a past partner or a parent, or a project that I'm dreading or whatever. Ali: There is a sensational understanding that can be mapped and diagrammed in order to externalize and make consciously aware exactly what our relationships are, what our maps, our body maps have been, and what we want them to be for a greater sense of comfort. So if I ask people, for example, at the center with an addiction, 'cause then I ended up working at the Meadows, the Meadows and other rehab centers with addiction in particular, sexuality, a lot more fun, I have to say, than working with drugs and alcohol . But, you know, you can, uh, somebody will, within minutes, somebody will diagram their, their experience of their felt sense relationship to the drug and or the behavior and how it's functioning for them. So became the method that I use most of the time now. I teach it now because it is so applicable to any topic and any kind of practitioner who wants to augment what they're already doing, because the body will go right to it and immediately diagram whatever it is that somebody's contending with. Yeah. Rahi: Yeah. It's really fascinating. I mean, there's so many things that, um, that you just shared as far as, you know, the experiences that have been pivotal in, in informing your journey as well as, you know, like really how personal geometry came to be that stand out for me. Like one, you know, this combination of being a dancer since you were four, you know, moving your body combined with your mother who was so open and nonjudgmental and accepting and celebratory, like she wanted you to be informed, you know, about the body, about sexuality, and that that pairing, you know, is, is a very potent pairing, you know, as a, as a, as a girl and then a young woman, uh, experiencing, you know, your whole self. Ali: I, I, I just wanna note the plot thickens, because of course it was not that simple and it, it mm-hmm . There was also quite dark aspects of, of that to add to that, um, you know, aggregate, let's say, of experience that developed my sexuality and my experience in the world. So I just wanted to add that Rahi: Essentially, like, it makes so much sense to me that, uh, constellation work mm-hmm . And personal geometry that came through you really resonated and had to come through you, given how you hold the body in its wholeness. You know, because I feel like what Constellation work does is it's really looking at the wholeness of a family system. And I feel like what you've been doing is looking at the wholeness of the embodiment system. You know, I, and so Ali: Yes, because my view is the field, and this drives me back about installation work now, which is becoming more and more like that the field, the knowing field is something that is so amorphous, it's infinite, it's out there. And I'm always doing this gesture when I talk about the constellation concept of the field, because it is, it is still, um, dissociating for me, for me, the field. Mm-hmm . The body is the epicenter of anyone's given field. It has to start here. This is where, from which we, um, whether you're setting up humans to represent other people and do a full blown constellation, or I ask somebody to diagram their, um, that one for themselves and their relationship to orgasm or whatever it is that they're struggling with or wanting. Um, it, it is, it, the body knows exactly what it is. I don't have to rely on something out there to show up and tell me it's all right here. It is so flesh based. It is so melded in a way that we, in the, in our cultures, in most industrialized cultures, if not all, can really fully even understand how genius this, this, and, and complete this thing is that we are. So, yes. Rahi: Right. Right. So that's why I feel like personal geometry had to come through someone who understands and Yeah. Is experienced, you know, that that depth and, and, and, um, study, you know, both experientially and as a body worker, because obviously, you know, Burt Hellinger, who we both, you know, uh, respect and, and appreciate, uh, does not come, you know, from that background. No. And so it makes sense that, right. That, that represent, that the way he held the space in the field was very different than someone who, uh, you know, it actually lives, you know, like, that, that, um, explores the state of embodiment, you know, as, as you have. Um, so I just wanna say for, um, listeners who's not, who are not familiar with family constellations or systemic constellations, um, it was developed by, uh, Bert Hellinger, and it's a very, very, actually a common practice in places like Germany, um, where, um, you know, as Ali mentioned, uh, issues regarding one's life can be threaded back or kind of revealed through the family systemic field, um, as a unfinished business of a previous generation. And by applying, uh, completion sentences and realigning the constellation, um, that these issues can be addressed. And it sounds like, Allie, you know, I'm really fascinated how you have taken walking, walking and constellation work to resolve and address issues of one's sexuality and their relationship with, you know, whether it's porn addiction or, you know, uh, inner orgasm, or can you give us a sense of how, you know, in such a short amount of time, you, you allow the, the, the constellation to reveal one's inner relationship with these issues? Ali: Yeah. So I don't call what I do a constellation anymore unless I'm specifically doing a constellation for somebody. But let's take, let's, let's say you are doing a constellation with somebody about an issue, like a porn addiction. For me to go all the way to, okay, well my, um, you know, you do a whole genogram and you interview them and you get their narrative and you get what they've talked about in therapy for the last 12 years, and you get their, their belief or their defenses or their story basically about Right. What we think is going on. And then in constellation work, whether you're working one-on-one or you're working in a group, and then you start setting up the, the main, I don't like using this word actually, but players, or in my case when I work mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . You know, the, the, what I would call the kind of the joints of the dynamic. Ali: Because when I'm doing what I do, I'm thinking of, I always ask people to look at whatever I sense into what, what, like in the body, what isn't moving, what can be moving mm-hmm . Um, that it is causing problems for people. So in a constellation, they're looking more at content and story and representatives working in a group to bring in information. And yes, they're also working with a skilled practitioner is also working with the nervous systems of the client and the nervous systems of the participants. So that, I have experienced this, and we've seen this many, many times where the nervous system of the individual and perhaps the whole family system, though, there's no way to prove that actually does shift and change, and off gas, you could say, uh, trauma that's been held and wrecking havoc in a family system. Mm-hmm . Just by my explaining that a bit, which by the way, thank you for talking, you know, describing constellation work. Ali: I made the feature documentary films about constellation work. So if people are ever interested, you can go to constellation arts.com and get a five film series all about it. But what I came to find is that it's just too complicated. It's still too cerebral, and it's still about other people out there doing something for me while I sit here as the client. If it's in a group and other people are feeling things and moving things and changing things. And I'm just a passive witness, basically, who Yes. Is also hopefully working these things through my own nervous system. But what I'm much more fascinated about, particularly in the realm of addiction or anything where people don't feel like they have their agency, is for them to place things for them to move things for them to recognize, oh, wait a minute. It doesn't have to be that way. Ali: So, for example, and I realize this is, most people will be listening to this and not looking at it. So even if you just use a post-its, I use usually objects 'cause they're three-dimensional. And also you get the symbology, which is another language of the body, but if you ask somebody to place a post-it with an arrow, because that's super important to know the direction of the gaze, because we, as human bodies, we are predators, we have eyes in the front of our heads. This is very different than a horse that is prey. A prey animal that has eyes on the side of its head. They will orient in space in a very different way than we do. So you always need to indicate where the eyes are, which direction they're facing, because it's gonna have a completely different sensation and a completely different meaning. Ali: If the client self is facing, for example, porn that's smack in front of them, maybe that's how they feel like it. They're like, oh, well, I know where that is. I'm here and porn is two inches in front of my face. Now, obviously, that could be a literal reflection of the physicality of a screen in front of them, but most people will immediately have this sense of that's what it's like. That's all I can see in my life. I can't see anything else. I'm not looking at anything else. I feel like I can't walk forward or I'll bash right into porn that's smack in front of me. How does it feel? I don't like it. I don't like it. It's ruining my life. That's all I can see. So just by placing that in literally 10, 15 seconds, somebody gets a complete experience of, or at least the beginning of a sensational experience of, I recognize that that's the water I've been swimming in and I don't like it. Ali: And then we can build it out like, well, is there something you're avoiding seeing? Is there something behind it you don't wanna see? Is there something that you're afraid of looking at that's behind you? Is there something that is who or what is implicated in this relationship? So then, depending on what they say, if you bring in, um, a parent or parents, or you bring in a, a partner, the plot thickens really, really fast because you immediately start to see, oh, porn is there. So I don't have to look at my ex-wife, or I, I, my mother is, is right on top of me, or my father is actually way across the room with his back to me. And it's too painful to have to even look at or feel. You can start to see super quickly the function that placement and that body map has for that person. Ali: Mm-hmm . So it's more immediate, like Yeah. Then I, we can get into, well, did your uncle was, you know, was he a pervy guy? And what happened to you when you were a kid? And yes, we definitely could bring in, usually there's, there, well, at the center there, there could be trauma, sexual trauma, um, all kinds of things, which then starts to unfold. And depending on how much time and how deeply the person wants to go, we, we get into the deeper layers of what maps are. But I love efficacy of personal geometry that it can go somewhere so quickly in a way the body can recognize and change. I love the simplicity of just going right to one of these s the body that doesn't involve the, again, the story that isn't always necessary. Rahi: Yeah. That is such a great example to illustrate the efficacy and the kind of underlying themes underneath someone's compulsive, you know, addiction or behavior. I love that it immediately externalizes the, the internal, um, relational landscape of a person and their experience. Ali: I love word that word. Yes. Mm-hmm . Rahi: It's, it's really, really, um, brilliant in that way because it, I mean, for some people that all of those dynamics can be totally out of their awareness. And as you pointed out, when they can see it and they can feel the spatial relationships that have been in the body externalized, they immediately can get it. Ali: You got it. That's exactly right. That's exactly it. Yeah. It's super exciting. Yeah. And super fun. And I can't tell you how many times I've had people say, I just saw, felt and, and changed what I've been trying mm-hmm . To understand for the last 12 years mm-hmm . In therapy in one session. Rahi: In one session. Sure. Because the example you gave, I know it was just an example, but, you know, like, I think a lot of people, the example was around porn addiction, but it could be inorgasmia, it could be a premature, it could be anything. And they're focused on that issue rather than understanding the layers of the currents of what is informing that behavior. So the, in the example you gave, like immediately someone can realize, oh, it's because my mother's on top of me, or because, you know, I'm, I'm avoiding the pain of my father, you know, uh, my father's back against me, or whatever it is. And then they can address the root of the issue rather than the behavior that's coming from it. Ali: Yes. And then choose, do you still want it in front of you or do you wanna move it, or do you wanna move yourself? Do you wanna turn around? Do you want to, I mean, just the experience of somebody in a session recognizing that they can turn a colored piece of paper, or a mat or an object 180 degrees and have porn behind them rather than smack in front of them. Right. It sounds so ridiculous that something so seemingly trivial, like just moving something 180 degrees would have such a huge impact, but it does mm-hmm . Because again, this is Sure. Mapped in the body, not just as a physical phenomenon in relationship, but all the maps, I, I was just trying to, I was thinking about it today on my walk, just how do you explain that? It's, there's so many tracks. This is a neurological thing, like how do we actually map this? It's, it's neurology, it's meridians. Mm-hmm . It's memory, it's fascia, it is all mm-hmm . Tracks. Like, I was thinking about orgasm before meeting with you, and I thought, oh, inevitably we're gonna talk about that topic, which is such an important topic. Obviously. Rahi: It's, it's Ali: Flipping complicated for a lot of us. It's complicated. Absolutely. Most people don't have a simple relationship to orgasm, in my experience anyway. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Because it's difficult or it's too easy, or it brings up memories or, um mm-hmm . Alone, but not with a partner or, you know, I don't wanna get bonded or it's, they're, they're windy. Right. I want bigger orgasms or, you know, uh, I just wanna expand. Rahi: It's very complex. It's Ali: Complex, but you can map that absolutely. Geometry in such a quick way to, to help it become conscious and start to recognize, recognize it isn't just a physical proximity, it's also how close do I feel it to it emotionally? How do I feel it to it spiritually? What happens when my partner comes into that map? How does that change geometry? Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm . It Ali: A lot with the heart sexuality split, I think I mentioned that to you. Mm, Speaker 4: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ali: I would love to talk more about that because Rahi: Let's do, let's do, let's go right into it. So, so the heart sexuality split, I'm, I'm, I mean, I, I would be so fascinated to see a personal geometry session unfold with those elements, because I'm guessing, given the society we live in and all the conditioning and the messages, it's really split. It's, it's more split than it's aligned for most people. And that I, I, I'm guessing, gets revealed in personal geometry, uh, pretty, pretty quickly Ali: Immediately. And if anybody who's listening wants to just take a few post-its mm-hmm . On one, you write self and place an arrow to represent the gaze on one. You write heart in an arrow to represent which direction that would be facing if somebody were standing on it. And one to represent sexuality with an arrow and place those on a piece of eight by 11 and eight and a half by 11 paper or on a table. And how do you experience the relationship between those three elements, self, heart, and sexuality right now? Mm-hmm . It could be tomorrow, it could be different. Mm-hmm . In a partner, and they might spread apart or come more together. It could be different. Um, if you bring in the church , you know, sure. Influential element that might have really influenced that relationship, and you might find that yours feel totally one and the same and aligned. There's a continuum. There's lots of elements that go into the ebb and flow, and some people keep theirs intentionally apart. Some people mm-hmm. Them apart with one lover, but not with another. Mm-hmm. This is so interesting. Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm . Ali: By the way, if you ask people to, uh, diagram and map their heart sexuality relationship in relation to one partner and then in relation to another. Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Ali: It can be super interesting to see, oh, no wonder with this person, I'm more like this, and with this person I'm more like that. Mm-hmm . In the course of a relationship over a long period of time, from any given day or any given lovemaking or sex session, you might feel really congruent yourself, but maybe your partner isn't, or maybe you both are in a fortunate world, if that's your value, it's a really helpful way to immediately get a sense. It's a amazing, I don't wanna say litmus test, but I just did, but because it's not a test, it's just a reflection mm-hmm . Where I'm at this time, that will probably illuminate whatever the issue is, for example, in orgasm, how one is in relation to difficulty having an orgasm in relation to one's heart, or in relation to one's sexuality. Maybe it's closer to the heart than closer to the sexuality, which is super interesting. Mm-hmm . Why would, Rahi: It's super interesting, Ali: Be closer to a heart, someone's emotional being, rather than their sexual being. Well, that's new. Mm-hmm. I would've thought it had to do with I was broken sexually. Not that I was broken hearted, for example. so much information mm-hmm . Rahi: Yeah. But Ally, I'm, I'm curious because you, I mean, there are two themes here. Like one, it seems like there is juice around wanting to explore the complexity of orgasm because it's true. You know, it's like, you know, there's so many books out there that talk about technique and physiology, but they don't even touch the layers of complexity that get revealed in a personal geometry. You know, as you alluded to the relationship, be, you know, of the heart and where that, where that comes in, you know, past lovers, you know, religion, you know, obviously like the, you know, the, the influence of our parents. All of those things inform Yeah. How our life force, how vital our life force feels in how they wanna be expressed and celebrated. Right. But then the other theme you spoke about, and I guess, well, they are, they're directly related, is the heart sexuality, uh, alignment or misalignment. I'm curious in your work with personal geometry and having witnessed, you know, so many sessions, has, has something really stood out as far as, um, surprising you about people's misalignment or alignment between heart and sexuality or between their relationship with their own orgasm? Ali: Off the cuff, I would say no. And that's one of the things I love so much about personal geometry, is that it is so individual, and that is mm-hmm . Session to session or moment to moment, somebody will reflect. I've had people literally get down on the floor and feel a millimeter of change be because it didn't feel the positioning or the dynamic, the felt sense relationship was quite right. That's how specific people can get about this is what it feels like to me, to today in this moment. And it's potentially ever changing. Yeah. It's just so changing. But I'll tell you, man, you, you asked somebody to put place one representing themselves and one for orgasm. Most people will do it again in seconds or a minute or two, and they're gonna immediately go, oh my God, it's 20 feet away from me, and it's got its back to me, or it's right on top of me, or it's underneath me, or, um, it's, it's, it's coming in at me from the side, and I feel all this pressure or people will immediately feel whatever they're seeing. Rahi: Yeah. Something I want, I do wanna add just for our audience members, you know, as they're listening and they have, they're engaged in some question about their sexuality, whether it is, you know, inorgasmia or, or porn addiction or, or, uh, premature or whatever it is around, it could be a, a heart sexuality disconnect, considering that the root of the issue may have nothing to do with that, but what your, uh, unresolved relational dynamics are with the, the people that are most important in your life. You know, as you mentioned with the porn example, you know, it could be an ex lover, a father, a mother, and, um, I mean, it, it makes me really question the nature of our addictions and, you know, com compulsive behavior, because my sense, you know, like I was really informed by, by, uh, Gabor mate's work, you know, around addiction and helping me realize, oh, this is just everyone's different way of trying to deal with the pain in their life. Yes. You know, some wound from childhood and, you know, the example you gave with porn addiction, uh, and the influences that can be, you know, so varied from different, important people in one's life. Um, you know, like I, I feel like a lot of society focuses on addressing the addiction and not the underlying relational dysfunctions that are leading to the addiction. We're, we're not really getting to the root or the source. Well, Ali: Again, not to keep blowing, blowing this horn, but, um, if you ask somebody to place one for them and one for whatever the addiction is, they wanna look at, yes, Ali: They'll map for you how it's functioning for them. And more often than not, there's a variety, and I'm, I'm working on a book about this, so I'm not gonna get into a lot of detail, but oftentimes more than not, there is, people will put an addiction behind them because that is a position of support. In a perfect world, that's where our parents would stand. They would have our back, back on them, they would be behind us, guiding us forward. Most people, a lot of people don't have that. A lot of addicts don't have that. They don't have support mm-hmm . But addic, the, whatever they're addicted to, they can rely on that, that's gonna be there for them. They can buy it. Mm-hmm. They can find it, they can, you know, turn on a screen and it's gonna make them feel better. Mm-hmm . Over and over and over and over again. Ali: Mm-hmm . So just by seeing, oh my God, there's nothing behind me, there's no one behind me. Or help them discover, actually, there are other things behind you if you free up that space. Mm-hmm. However, I wanna mention something else because it's so prevalent in the sexuality, how it's implicated in sexuality issues, which is there is a lot of emotional incest, meaning that if a parent or parents are unhappily married, often happens that one spouse, one parent, will look to their child for fulfillment, reflection, reflection, um, affirmation that they're not getting from your spouse. So that is emotional incest. We're not gonna even touch the area, you know, the issue of potential physical, sexual incest. Okay. So let's just put that aside. You can see that again within seconds. If somebody is basically more or less energetically, psychologically, emotionally married, so to speak, merged mm-hmm . Or a melded with a parent, right. This makes it very difficult to bond with a partner. Rahi: Mm-hmm . Ali: So one way to not quite bond with a partner can be to cheat on them. And this can be unconscious behavior. I can't tell you how many months blew when I was pointing out the, the, this same thing to people and go, oh my God, I haven't been able to commit to somebody because I'm still flipping committed to my what mother, you know? Right, right. Or, I, I can't fully come into somebody, I can't merge with somebody and meld with somebody because that would be a disloyalty. These are unconscious things until again, you put it on the floor, you put it on a piece of paper, and you're like, oh my God, the place for a partner is taken. And in orgasms, you can see how that geometry is brilliantly in indicative of that, you know, suffering they've been experiencing. Yeah. Rahi: Yeah. You can see the orchestration at play in the geometry. Ali: Yes. You get it. Yeah. Yeah. You totally get Rahi: It. That scenario of still being meshed or, uh, merged or married to like one's mother out of a confused sense of loyalty can be a reason why someone is addicted to porn or in orgasmic or has pe Yes. I mean, this is like a great example of the underlying cause. Okay. So at this point, I want to point out that, um, Allie actually, she provides personal geometry trainings for coaches, therapists, facilitators, sexologists, uh, addiction specialists, so you can find all that information on her site. And she is actually speaking at the Sexual Health Alliance. Yes. Uh, next month in Denver on body mapping for sexual healing. Is your site, Ali, is it just, is it your name? Ali: Yeah, a LI, yes. MEZE y.com. Yep. Rahi: I, I should say, um, Allie had me on her podcast about a month ago, and it was so just like invigorating and enriching to dive deep into these topics. And so, you know, I really wanted her to have a chance to share her wealth of knowledge. You know, on, on our podcast, we actually met on the dance floor like 20, 25 years ago. Yep. Yeah. Like 25 years ago. Uh, here in Los Angeles, there's a vibrant, ecstatic dance community. And, and that's how we got to be friends. And then lo and behold, like 15, 20 years later, we had both, you know, become, uh, certified sexological body workers in our own kind of respective journeys. And so it's been so, so delightful to reconnect, you know, now that we're in these different places in our respective, uh, professional, uh, fields, which happens to be the same. Ali: Yeah. Love it. And let's talk about inhibition. 'cause this is also super, super important part of why we don't surrender, quote unquote, or meld whatever verb you wanna call it. Rahi: Yes. Ali: While being sexual with self or another, or others is because we can say we, there is dissociation for whatever reason. There's the part of the, the right, the left brain, the witness, the, the commentator, the critic, um, the, the analyst, you know, who doesn't let go because our left brains mm-hmm . Are trained to do that. Perhaps they're designed to do that. And for many of us, that doesn't go away, perhaps ever mm-hmm . Maybe down to 5%, maybe if you're in a particularly cosmic experience or, you know, intoxicated in some way. Sure. Maybe zero, I don't know. Um, there's times when I feel like I am totally aligned, but there's a lot of times where I don't. But a lot of the reason in my view and professionally and personally is that people think sex is supposed to be a certain way, and that mm-hmm . Ali: That's why people are inhibited because they're like, oh, well, I'm not gonna be able to do it that way. I'm not gonna be able to feel this physically, emotionally, psychologically. I'm not gonna be able to perform in this particular way. I'm not gonna be able to look this way and, uh, as a body, I'm not gonna be able to mm-hmm . Feel I wanna feel towards this other person physically or emotionally. There's all these expectations that one is comparing oneself to mm-hmm. Which results in a sense of, oh, well, I can't possibly be in everything I'm experiencing with this person. I mean, most people don't even talk about sex with a person with whom they're having it. So how can they totally possibly be in, I feel really sad right now. I feel like crying right now. I'm so frustrated that I can't come, actually I wanna punch you in the face. Oh no. That's reminding me of my whomever in my past. Right, Rahi: Right. And Ali: All of that could be shared. Not actually, you know, I'm not suggesting people hit each other unless it's consensual and to desired, but if people were allowed to be in the authenticity of whatever was happening in their full experience, uhhuh, there would be so much less inhibition, even if that was just being with, I can't come right now. I'm so frustrated. And being able to express that more fully instead of like tightening and just going, I'm a failure. I'm a failure. I'm frigid. I'm a failure, I'm a failure , because that's not gonna help anything. It just shuts the whole system down and it shuts the intimacy down, obviously, instead of including it in the experience. Rahi: I feel like what you're speaking to is so important because it is so universal. I mean, if you think about the way two people or more get together sexually, right there, I mean, sexuality is so charged in our society, first of all. Second of all, there's so much sexual ego and sexual identity. And what I mean by that is people seem to place a certain value of their worth as a human being based on their sexual performance and how they perceive themselves sexually. And so I feel like all of these things come into the bedroom during courtship and during courtship is when we start to develop patterns, you know, in our sexual intimacy with a partner. You know, I feel like what you're speaking to Ali is really giving people permission to let go of all of that and just like, be as you are emotionally, physically, with your curiosity, with your Yeah. Just showing up transparently and allowing all of that to inform your experience of being intimate with each other. Ali: A hundred percent. Yeah. Rahi: Absolutely. I wanna pull in some data and just to underscore that studies show that the degree that affects our pleasure sexually the most is the emotional connection between two people. So what you're speaking to the inhibition is directly correlated to how emotionally free or how emotionally rigid we're, I mean, essentially the emotional rigidness is gonna affect our sexual, the of our pleasure. Ali: It's not vice versa. The degree to which we feel emotionally connected will affect our, our lack of inhibition or inhibition. Say that again? Well, Rahi: Yeah. It goes both ways. So the deeper the emotional connection, right, the greater the pleasure, the sexual pleasure, and the, and the, the lack of emotional connection will lead to performative very limiting pleasure experiences. So what you're speaking to it, you know, there's so much important wisdom in it because the more emotionally uninhibited we are with each other, the more pleasure we're gonna experience. Ali: Sexuality is still the most fascinating, compelling and blessed experience when it's feels right, you know? Mm-hmm . And expansive. And it's, it's such a homecoming. And I just wanna acknowledge that as well. Like the opportunity in it and the capacity there is for healing because of the intrinsic vulnerability of it is, is unparalleled, I believe. I mean, which is why of course, we're both in this field, because you can reach down into those deepest places and help transform them through this body of work, through this body experience, through the, the, you know, birthright of sexual expression. Rahi: Yeah. I, I fully agree Ally. I, I feel like when, when there is a depth of, uh, safety, trust, and surrender, there are elements of our consciousness that really open. And in that container, there are wounds that are, that, that may have been, um, difficult to touch into or repair that become accessible in that container of erotic, intimate, heart-centered alchemy. And I think there's nothing like it because it really, I mean, it touches on, so, you know, it's almost like the inner child, the adult wise one, I dunno if I can even put it into words to give it justice, but there seems to be some kind of alchemical portal that opens up, you know, in that erotic being fully seen, uh, for all of the messiness and being cherished and loved for it. And you, you add in the pleasure and the joy of that, and it seems to recalibrate or, you know, repair, re imprint something new of an old story where there was wounding. Mm. So I totally agree with you. Ali: So beautifully said. And for people who don't, or haven't yet shared this, who aren't sharing this with a partner, um, a lay person, so to speak mm-hmm . A civilian. Yeah. You know, people like Rahi are doing this amazing hands on hands in work who can, um, hold that space and have that skill. And I mean, I, I've gotten more healing out of sexological body workers than probably anything in my life. I mean, it's been tremendously mm-hmm . Important not just psychologically, spiritually, energetically, but also physically because I had a severe tailbone break when I was also, oh, I, I, I shoulda added that in as a particularly significant milestone in my life, because I always try to bring this up because so many people, particularly if you're struggling with any kind of orgasmic issues, don't recognize even professionals and doctors don't recognize how much a tailbone break can influence mm-hmm . The innovation of the pelvic floor, the torque, and the, you know, the musculature and the hypertension of the pelvic floor, and it can really affect your nerve feed into your, um, clitoris mm-hmm . Into your penis, into whatever you got. Mm-hmm . So I just wanted to add that in, that sexological body work can be extremely helpful to go internally anally and vaginally into this deep scar tissue that can be, um, you know, again, not just emotional and from trauma, but also just also physical that because Rahi: Straight up physical Absolutely. Absolutely. In the same, I mean, in a different way, but in a similar way, the example of like playing a king in a Shakespearean play can give a teenager like a new palette of, uh, a new context of what the body can feel sexological body work, you know, I mean, I've had clients who are inner orgasmic, and then it gives them, it, it rewires what the body knows is possible, you know, as far as arousal, pleasure, orgasm. And that can then just shift the whole story of, you know, for the body of being a sexual being. Um, and it's so, so powerful. Um, Ali: Totally. Just once you felt it, you can't unfeel it. You may not be able Exactly. Replicate it in exactly the same way, or it may take you some time, but you're no longer the story of the one who can't come because you did. Yeah. You've done it at least once. You can certainly do it again and again and again. Yeah. Rahi: You know, so it's, it, you know, going back to the antenna, you know, the antenna, it's like a whole new range of things can be picked up, you know, of shift. Hallie, as we wrap up here, um, again, always wonderful to dive into these rich explorations with you. Um, how can people find you and learn more about personal geometry? Ali: Yeah, so as we mentioned, just go to my website at www.alimezey.com. There's a whole page under training if you're interested in taking my eight week next cohort starts mid-November. That is a foundational class to teach personal geometry to any kind of practitioner, or you can do a lot of your own personal work in that class as well. And then I also, um, have my podcast, the Brilliant Body Podcast, which is a fantastic collection of conversations with a variety of different body masters, not just about sex and sexuality, but about all kinds of things, um, to explore the brilliance of the body. And then I'm working with people, I'm gonna be in Los Angeles mid-October to mid-November. I work hands-on, I do one-on-ones work with couples, um, do, uh, you know, somatic immersions if people wanna really do a deep dive into just getting at the root causes of these issues along with some body work. I'm not currently working as a sexological body worker, but I can do a lot without working directly with the genitals. Um, yeah. And I just get on my list so you know what's coming up next. Mm-hmm . Always offering some new stuff and would love to have any and all of you come and join me. Rahi: That's so great. So great. Uh, Allie, thanks for being on the podcast. It's always great to see you, and I look forward to seeing you. Ali: Likewise. Rahi: How is today's episode landing in your body right now? Are there aspects of how you experience your sexuality that may have nothing to do with sexuality itself, but shaped by unseen forces within the personal geometry of your relational dynamics that are now yearning to be revealed? And when you feel into your heart and sexuality dynamic, is there a sense of harmony and alignment, disconnect, or something in between? What might you begin to explore to bring greater sexual coherence within yourself and with your precious erotic life force? Links to the wide range of Ali's offerings can be found at her site, ali mase.com and also in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation, Allie and I dive into more rich topics this week on her The Brilliant Body Podcast. Until next time, take good care, . [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) ## Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [SEE ALL EPISODES](/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving ### About the Show We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Men in Relationships, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health **Tags:** Family Constellations, Inspiration, Personal Geometry, Pleasure Practices, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Addiction, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure --- ### [The Wheel of Consent: Boundaries, Touch & Power with Dr. Betty Martin](https://rahichun.com/podcast/wheel-of-consent-touch-boundaries/) **Published:** April 3, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we learn, re-learn or deepen our body’s sense of safety for receiving the kinds and quality of touch and pleasure we truly desire, whilst expanding its ability to know and ask for what it really wants? Dr. Betty Martin and The Wheel of Consent offers a safe and clear container for this embodied inquiry. Betty shares her journey of how the subtle yet powerful touch distinctions of giving, receiving, taking and allowing evolved, the importance of waking up our hands to receiving pleasure, and her process of distilling and transmitting her depth of knowledge into the newly released “The Art of Receiving and Giving: The Wheel of Consent.” **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # The Wheel of Consent: Boundaries, Touch & Power with Dr. Betty Martin # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the Wheel of Consent and how it transforms boundaries, communication, and touch dynamics. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1617493855327.jpg "Dr.BettyMartin | Rahi Chun") [BettyMartin.org](http://bettymartin.org/) [SchoolofConsent.org](http://schoolofconsent.org/) [WheelofConsentBook.com](http://wheelofconsentbook.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Betty has had her hands on people professionally for 40 years (some of it legal and some of it questionable): 30 years as a Chiropractor and then 15 years as a Body Electric School trained Sacred Intimate. Other goodies include Neuro-Emotional Integration, Educational Kinesiology, Sexological Bodywork, Taoist Erotic Massage, Kashmiri Tantric Massage, and good ‘ol sex work. She describes her long career as basically Surrogacy with variations. She loves it. These days her passion is training other hands-on practitioners in consent skills and how to teach their clients empowered choice – so they can stop doing what they think they are supposed to do, and start doing what it is they want to do. Big difference. Her book, which is just being released, is “The Art of Receiving and Giving: The Wheel of Consent.” Her class for practitioners is called Like a Pro and it has taken her all over the world. She is a long-time Cuddle Party facilitator and is part of the team that trains, certifies and supports new facilitators. ## What You’ll Learn About Consent, Boundaries & Touch Dynamics $ “It’s not love, it’s not sex, it’s not giving, it’s not receiving… nobody’s trying to make you feel good, you’re not trying to make anybody else feel good… there’s no meaning to it – at all.. It’s just – can this nerve cell talk to this brain cell – that’s it” $ How playing the 3-Minute Game and exploring these two questions literally, “What do you want me to do to you?” and “What do you want to do to me?” – with hundreds of people lead Betty to developing the Wheel of Consent. $ How the invitation “How do you want to touch me?” is often met with “I want to touch you the way you want to be touched” when our hands are not awakened to receiving pleasure. $ How “Waking Up Your Hands” is essential for developing the capacity to listen for what our touch receptors desire, and in turn – leads to waking up the touch receptors of the whole body. $ How when we’re not able to enjoy sensory pleasure, the only pleasure that can be derived is from the response of our touch by the other person. $ How tears of grief, delight, and aha’s are common when the touch/receptivity circuitry comes back online – and our fundamental human capacity for receiving pleasure reawakens. $ How The Wheel of Consent invites a labyrinth into our inner world of sensations and pleasure due to its safe and clear structure for agreements, negotiation, and consent – providing the nervous system the ability to continually down-regulate whilst experiencing deeper states of connection, pleasure and self-intimacy. $ How writing the book “The Art of Receiving and Giving” became a 13-year journey and involved Betty’s personal reconciliation with the notion that a “nice girl” isn’t supposed to know what Betty has explored in developing her expertise, wisdom and insights. $ How universal it can be to go along with what we don’t like, and how when the body discovers it can be touched in ways it truly desires and has yearned for, it can change life-long behavior patterns of touch, intimacy and pleasure. ## ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships Pillar Index Page](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [How Somatic Consent and touch awareness builds trust for intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How consent in birth and medical systems is felt by our nervous systems](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-birth-medicine-body-authority/) [How nervous system healing and trauma repair have transformational effects in sexual intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/heal-trauma-regulate-nervous-system/) ## Go Deeper Into This Work The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were never taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today it's a great honor to invite Dr. Betty Martin to discuss her pioneering work, the Wheel of Consent, and it's subtle, yet powerful distinctions involving touch. Boundaries and consent and how creating clear agreements invites a safety within the nervous system to truly receive sensation. And in so doing reconditioning our touch receptors to experience the kinds and quality of touch, our body truly desires with trust and sovereignty. She shares how her understanding of the wheel of consent evolved, the importance of waking up our hands to receiving common obstacles to our ability to receive touch, and the journey of distilling and transmitting this critical work into book form with the newly released the Art of Receiving and giving the Wheel of Consent written with Robin Dolson. So I am really thrilled and honored to be inviting Dr. Betty Martin to the show today. She is responsible for this pioneering body of work called The Wheel of Consent. She created the Wheel of Consent, is a co-founder of the School of Consent, which provides trainings and experiences supporting somatic empowerment, safety, connection by clarifying the experiences and dynamics of touch. Consent boundaries. And they have now trained facilitators that lead this really critical body of work all over the world. She's also author of the very anticipated upcoming book called The Art of Receiving and Giving the Wheel of Consent. Betty is also a sex and intimacy coach formerly a chiropractor, sexological body worker, sacred, intimate, betty, thank you so much for being here with us today. You are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I feel like the wheels really inspired such an awareness. Exploration of the subtle distinctions of touch and consent certainly with body work professionals all over the world. I'd love to, as a jumping off point, Betty, to ask you what some of those really pivotal experiences were that inspired the clarity and distinctions of the wheel of consent. That's a great question. In my mid forties, back in the 1990s, I attended some workshops and around sexuality with the Body electric school and one of those among several was called Power Surrender and Intimacy, and it was about using BDSM practices and self-awareness. And we played a game there, it's called the Three Minute Game. And the three minute game consists of two questions that two people take turns asking each other. And the questions are, what do you want me to do to you for three minutes? And what do you want to do to me for three minutes? That was fun. That was really fun. And and we played a few rounds of it and. And later when I started seeing clients I took that game off the shelf and dusted it off and brought it out to work with clients because I thought I had been a chiropractor, so I knew how to take a history and make a plan for a client. And I thought as a way to transition from the talking history, taking part of the session into the touch part of the session. I thought this will give me a sense of how comfortable people are, what their skill levels are. It will just make a nice transition. And it did, and it showed me a lot more, and and so I'd say the pivotal thing from for developing the wheel was first of all learning the three minute game, and second of all, having hundreds of people to play it with because I had all my clients. I think if it, if I had just played it with a partner to I would not have noticed what I noticed. But when you ask a hundred people, how do you want me to touch you? Or What do you want me to do to you for three minutes? You find a lot of answers and mostly you find that people are confused or suspicious or don't know what they want or are confused about who it's actually for. You ask someone, how do you want me to touch you? And they say you could, such and such, I could, but that wasn't the question. I asked what you wanted. And so people were, they, people were confusing what they wanted with what was okay and good enough, which is a very different question. And so a lot of, it was just being able to play it with a lot of people that really showed me that. And likewise, when I would ask, how do you want to touch me? Then the people would get really confused and they'd say I, I wanna touch you the way you wanna be touched. That's nice, but this is for, how do you want to touch me? And so I think one of the reasons why. The, this clarity clicked around these questions was that I took them so ridiculously, literally. And and another one was that I had lots of people to play with. Yeah. And so when I say how do you want me to touch you? It's a very literal question of asking what you want. Seeing how confused and lost people would get with being asked what they wanted. And I came to appreciate how hard that is. And then see, seeing it in my own life as well. Like when someone asks me what I want, maybe I don't know, or maybe I'm embarrassed, or maybe I'm too shy. Or maybe I just don't know what it feels like to have something. It actually is for me instead of, instead of having an agenda for it. About it. So it I'd say that it's not that the wheel of consent brings out any particular nuances of consent. There are many people who do that better than I do, but it brings out this kind of stark clarity of who is this actually for? If I'm asking you what you want, then it's for you. And I of course have my limits and my boundaries of what I'm willing to do for you. But but it's for you. And you get to choose and you get to notice and you get to change your mind and you get to stop when you wanna stop 'cause it's for you. And that distinction of who it's for. It turned out to be really hard for people. And it surprised me. And and then of course you see it in your own life where I get confused about it in my own life. I think we always teach what we most need to learn, wow. So you know what you're speaking to underscores the. Kind of the wealth of awarenesses that are awaiting us in the practice of the wheel. In the practice of the three minute game. Because honestly like when we look at the visual diagram, it makes sense, like things click intellectually. But that is that's like planets away from actually. Yeah. Clicking in our touch receptors. Yeah, absolutely. And especially what you're underscoring is what do my hands really want to experience? Yeah. Yeah. That's so huge and I, I'm assuming that's why there's such an emphasis on the waking up the hands practice. Yeah. Within the wheel. Yeah. Because without those touch receptors. Sensing and listening for what its authentic desires are. Some of these quadrants really are become a mental exercise. Become a mental exercise. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One time I was working with a client who and I'm asking them, how do you want to touch me? I'm asking them. It's about what they want. It's not about giving me something that they think I want. It's about what do you want? So it's about what do your hands want to do? And I had a client who was just really struggling with this and was just glued to my face to, see, did I like this? And he was, he happened to be stroking my arm and I could tell that he was trying to do it for me. And so I'm trying to verbally coach him, feel for the shape, feel for the texture, feel for what is pleasant to your hand, because I thought people know how to do what's pleasant to their hands. They just needed a little reminder that it's okay to do that. So he just was stuck. He just could not get it. And so I reached over. There was a river stone, had some interesting textures on the counter, and I said, so I just reached over and picked it up and in my mind I said, okay, let's see what you can do with this thing when there's nobody there to give to. So I handed it to him and he couldn't really feel that either. He knew it was a stone, but he couldn't be attentive to the sensation. He couldn't take any enjoyment out of the texture of it, and that was a kind of an aha moment for me because I realized, oh, it's not that he can't feel my arm, it's that he can't feel anything. Like he can't use his hands to create anything pleasurable in his hands at all. And that's when I realized, oh, that's like the, that's the neurological prerequisite to being able to touch a person for your own pleasure is to be able to touch anything at all for your own pleasure. And so I started doing that with other people and eventually now I do it with everybody because. I've found that most people, to some degree, their hands are they're, it's like our hands are instruments to accomplish things and what we need to do is to switch them to a source of pleasure, to ourselves. Can I feel this stone or this pen, or this feather just for the pleasure it creates in my hands. Once that clicks, which takes anywhere from a few minutes to a few weeks, once that clicks, then I can feel you. And now I can really feel you. I can feel the texture. I can feel the shape. I can feel the warmth. I can feel the enjoyment of this curve of your elbow here, so it was by accident that I came upon the waking up the hands and I soon realized that, oh, this applies to everybody. Like we all have to reawaken that sensory inflow. Of course, the neural information comes in from our hands, comes up our spinal cord into our brain and it connects with the pleasure centers and bing, they light up, and if that, if the neurological connection can't be made to, from the data to the pleasure center, that's when. There's just something wonderful that's missing. Yeah. And it can be it can be reclaimed. It's quite easy. You just sit down and take local objects around you and feel 'em up. And slow down and it'll wake up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great reminder that a couple of things. One, that this waking up can be done with the whole body. But I suspect Betty that because it, it's such a huge collection of nerves in the hands that when the hands are woken up. Kind of those touch receptors of the whole body, Yeah. 'cause it's a huge network. Yeah. Th that kind of wisdom of reception wakes up touch receptors in the whole body. Yeah. I think that's true. But that is what I've noticed is that when your hands get it, you get it. You just click and, yeah. I think that's true. So it's a very specific way of waking up the hands that you instruct of making sure the body is in a passive receptive state. And so that the body is used to, and the nervous system is used to not engaging or being in the doing state, but actually being in a passive receptive state. Which kind of changes the whole body's expectation and experience of the sensation. Sensation. Yeah. Yeah. I found as I was taking people through this, I found that if you were sitting forward or sitting up like in a yoga position and you had your hands out in front of you, and it's like you're engaging the muscles of your trunk and your arms, it's just like your brain can tell when you're working hard, and so we have to stop you from working hard. And to do that, you just lean back, put your hands in your lap pillow and your lap and slow down. Slow way down, and slow down some more. Yeah. And it's this process that leads to a somatic, a body-based understanding of really who's the touch for. Yeah. Because without that kind of Yeah. Awareness and listening then it sounds like the client you had before, it's just like numb to varying degrees. If I'm running my hand down your arm and it's, if we'd agreed that it's for me, may I feel your arm and you say Yes. Now to me. Then I can feel the shape and the texture and it's quite lovely and I can enjoy it. But if my hand doesn't know how to take in any data and enjoy it, then I can touch your arm. And even though we might have agreed, it's, for me, it doesn't feel like it's for me because it's not enjoyable. And the only thing that I have left is to try to make it pleasant for you because I don't know how to feel pleasant. For me. I just don't know how my hands aren't awake. So the only thing that's left is to try to make it pleasant for you. And I think that's so profound. It's it's so profound to recognize that when we are not able to enjoy the sensory pleasure, the only pleasure that can be derived is from the response of that touch. By the other person and yeah. Absolutely. And I think this kind of speaks to I mean it saddens me to recognize this, but I think it's really important that it speaks to our conditioning from when we're young as children. It's the degrees to which. Engagement of touch for us wasn't necessarily really for us, it might have been conditional. It might have been obligatory. It might have been, to, in, in some instances just abuse or punishment. And so how numb are we really to our touch receptors and their awareness of when we are receiving. Yeah. On that note, Betty, I feel like. The rewiring that's happening with the waking up of the hands. It's an enormously healing experience because we're reconditioning touch receptors and experiences of touch that, may have been abusive or may have been unsafe. Yeah. The practice of waking up the hands you do just with yourself and objects, you don't need anybody else there. And one thing, I think that kind of makes it what it is and makes it useful. And of course I've just geeked out on this to no end. And it's just fascinating to me once I started noticing it, is that because there's nobody else there, it's not about anything. It's not love, it's not sex, it's not giving, it's not receiving. Nobody's doing anything to you. Nobody's trying to make you feel good. You're not trying to make anybody else feel good. It's just, there's no meaning to it at all. It's just, can this nerve cell talk to this brain cell? That's it. So it's a very fundamental human circuit that for most people, has to some degree kind of gotten rusty. And so as it comes back online. All kinds of ahas come up, feelings come up. Tears are very common. Tears of grief often are pretty common. Relief delight as well as confusion and fear. And some, I've had people say, gosh, this makes me feel like I'm selfish, but it doesn't make any sense. Why would it feel selfish? And so it's working on that circuit that is the. This is your relationship to pleasure. It's in the very fundamental way. And is it okay to feel pleasure? Does it feel shameful to feel pleasure? And I'm defining pleasure broadly here. Yes. Do I feel sad? Do I feel threatened? And also you, because you are the one who's doing it with your hands. You can stop anytime if it feels like it's a little too much, which it might just put the thing down. There's nobody here to please. That's just, you're experimenting. And you're taking action that creates something that's enjoyable to you, or at least interesting to you. And so I think one reason it's so powerful is because that's such a fundamental. Human capacity to enjoy our sensations. And it's one that's got interrupted, of course. And so as it as that, those nerve cells start talking to each other again, the ahas come up, the feelings come up. Yeah. Yeah. So then it's turned out to be quite a big process, which I had no idea. That's where we're going when I. I stumbled upon it. Yeah. Uhhuh. It's, I feel like it's an invitation to this kind of labyrinth of our inner world. Yeah. Which is so exciting. Yeah. Because I feel like the structure of the wheel of consent offers a sense of safety. Because we all know it's all out in the open. There's no surprises. One person asks, how do you want to touch me? How do you want to be touched? There's a room for negotiation. And, you in the wheel, there are, there's a process to really feel into what your heart's desire is. And because that sense of safety is there, it allows for more, it allows for the nervous system to feel safer in receiving touch. Yeah. And then as the nervous system downregulates, it opens up to more sensation. And more pleasure. Yeah. It's this kind of continual exploration of new terrains as the nervous system. Feels safer and safer in receiving touch and exploring touch. Oh yeah. I think that's true. I think that's, I think it's like a fascinating labyrinth. And I love it for that reason. Yeah. As I mentioned at the outset your book is coming out soon in February. And I am curious how the process of putting into words often what is very challenging and is based on the language of touch, not the language of Yeah. Of words really. Like how did that, I'm curious in the process of. Putting it on paper and organizing it in a book. What was your process like, and were there even, different or new realizations that came to you about the wheel? Yeah, the, it the writing, the book has been a 13 year process. Wow. And when I first started in oh seven. I thought, oh, I'm just gonna write down this cool little two questions and show the wheel and it'll, that'll be cool. And it'll be about a hundred pages. And as I started to work on it, it turned out that it more wanted to be said. And it also turned out that it was very difficult to write. Not so much because this is getting off the line, but not so much because the topic was difficult. It was because the, my feelings that came up around writing it were difficult. First of all, a nice girl is not supposed to know the things that I know because I was doing sacred, intimate work, sex work, and that's where all this came from. A nice girl's not supposed to know this stuff and. If I do know it, I'm sure not supposed to tell it. And if I tell it, I'm sure not supposed to make it out in public, so all this stuff would come up and I'd sit down to write and I'd cry for an hour and then I'd get up and write. And then the next day I'd sit down to write and I'd cry for an hour and I'd get up to write. And this went on for years. And I took, at some point, I took a year off. I frequently took a few months off 'cause I was traveling and teaching and at one point I thought, I need someone, if I just had someone to stand next to me in the room and help me think this out. You know what words go where then I could do it. I didn't have anybody do that, but I called a few friends and I said, Hey, I need some help. Would you just. Listen to me for a few hours every week and how many hours do you have and when do you have it? And so I had three or four friends who I would call every week and just talk out loud through the book, and they saved my butt. Wow. And one of them allowed it invited me to come to her home for six weeks. And I just, I could not have done it without. Without the help. And in the last couple years my co-teaching colleague Robin Dawson, came on and helped me get it over the finish line. But it was very difficult, not because of the subject, but because of my own feelings about how dangerous it was to speak up, which is just sexism mainly, and so it just took a lot of tears and a lot of support. A lot of support. Yeah. And then, after 10 years or so of that it no longer, I no longer have those tears about it. It's it's become quite easy because I cried them all. But now I'm just really tired of it. I'm just on the tail end now. I'm working on the index this week. Oh, good. Good. Betty, that's it's touching and moving and a profound kind of commentary on our society as well. Yeah. The process of what you describe. I feel like it probably also, you have your very specific, unique. Journey. Just an incredible journey. But but I wonder if that can also, it probably reflects a lot of people who practice through the wheel and come up with their own different levels of wanting to hide and shame and acceptance and, declaring ownership of, what they want and who they are and what their lives are and what their body wants. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's one, one reason why it's, it can be so challenging and so liberating, because once again we're dealing with a fundamental circuit of human nature, which is noticing what we want and asking for it. And yet how many of us really were rewarded for that as kids and were treated well and I don't know anybody who doesn't struggle with that sometimes. And yeah, it's, it can be very intimidating and it can be a huge relief and completely liberating to discover that, oh my gosh, there actually is something that I want, and oh my gosh, I actually can ask for it and I can ask for it right out and straight. In the, light of day is just incredibly liberating. And then, and as a practice, you're pr you're playing it with a peer and you're taking turns and it's it's about touch. Doesn't have to be about touch, but that's how I learned it. And it's also, I think it's a great way to learn it because it's somatic. You learn things with your body that you just can't think of it your head Exactly. And habits and behaviors and conditioning can get reconditioned so efficiently. Absolutely. Through, yeah. Through our body. Yeah. And this is, for listeners who have never played the three Minute game or are not familiar with the Wheel of Consent it can involve like a huge range of touch. From just one's hand to lovers can use it as foreplay, but there's a wide range. It could be as platonic as a head rub or a back rub. Or an arm or elbow rub. Yeah. But once again, it is reconditioning. The messages that really go deep into our nervous system and our bodies, our psyches really, when we're very young about what's allowed and what's not allowed and what may be punishable and what may be sinful and all of that stuff. Absolutely. I think one of the things that surprised me most about how we're conditioned, you're talking about as young ones, was how universal it is to go along with stuff. That you don't want, or like even when it's your own turn. So somebody may say to me, how do you want me to touch you? And I say, oh, you rub my head. So they're rubbing my head. It's not quite the way I like it, I don't wanna blah, blah, blah. And so while I I, it's okay, I'll just put up with it. Why on earth would I do that when it's my turn to have it the way I want it? And yet almost everybody will do that. And we think there's something I'm supposed to want, or and if I don't like it, there's something wrong with me, or I need to change my attitude so that I like it better. Yeah, that that kind of surprised me as how. How universal that is. Yeah. Just going along with stuff that we don't really like. Yeah. And so much of what you just described happens all the time in sexual intimacy. Oh yeah. Whether it's with, whether it's with married couples Yeah. Who've been together for decades, or people dating for the first time. There's so much. Conditioning one. Yeah. Resistance to receiving or fear of receiving. As well as, self image around sexual identity. And pleaing the other, and all of that. Yeah. So this brings me to a question because, I know that you also you're a sex and intimate coach and you work with couples. I'm curious, when you're working with couples, the resistance to. Engaging and exploring some of the conditioning. Do you see it pretty equally in both genders or does one gender have like more of a challenge than the other? I think on average that the genders may have different challenges, but you'd see the same. It doesn't, we're people first and foremost, and so whether you're. Man or woman or transgender or non-binary or whatever the challenge is. Yeah, you're gonna have challenges. Things are gonna come up and the conditioning. There are themes that come tend to come up very often for men and for women, but it varies by the person. No, it varies by the person. I am curious if you could share some of those themes that, that you've observed over the years. The reason I bring this up, Betty, is Sure. I'd be happy to, because I was in conversation with one of my colleagues who a somatic. Psychotherapists and started working with couples, like in groups and, married couples. And she found that there was so much more resistance with the husbands. In the situation they were all married. And and she was trying to introduce kind of new conditioning, new patterns of touch, essentially. I imagine that part of that reason why men tend to be more resistant is because. Little boys are taught not to feel, don't feel your fear, don't feel your grief. Angers may be okay, but just don't feel, especially anything that's tender. And so it just feels incredibly vulnerable and foreign to have these kind of tender vulnerable feeling. So I imagine that's probably why. I'd say a very common theme among women is to not know that it's possible to be touched exactly the way they want, because most women have been touched by, usually by men. Most women have been touched in ways that were not inspiring, but they just kinda had to go along, or it felt like they had to go along or chose to go along. So very often when a woman discovers it's possible to be touched in the way she wants, like such a thing exists in the known universe. It's a huge revelation often. That, oh my gosh, that mean I get to have what I want. It's like in her body, she didn't even know what that felt like. That's very common among women, sometimes among men, but it among women, it's endemic. Yeah. Yeah. And among men, one of the things that's tends to be most challenging is waking up the hands. Men very often had a much, have a much harder time with that waking up the hands, and I don't think it's because they have any fewer nerve endings in their hands. I think again, it's because of the conditioning of little boys are taught not to feel. And so if you're gonna feel things with your hands, you're also gonna feel things emotionally, and that's, we ain't going there. So men very often have a harder time waking up their hands. Women are, it's usually easier. Yeah. And until your hands are awake. You can't have that experience of touching another person for your own pleasure. And so that whole segment or quadrant becomes difficult for men. And the shadow of that quadrant is perpetrator, groping, assault, rape, it's all the horrible things. And so if you don't understand the consent piece. You look out at that quadrant and you go, I'm not going there. That's, I'm not that guy. I'm just not gonna do that. And so that tends to be. Harder for men than for women. Again, there's variation, but on, on average it tends to be Yeah. That's really profound and it makes so much sense that without those sensory receptors being turned on without being able to feel that. They, there's, there is a tendency to go into the shadow side. So each, so for our listeners, each quadrant, they, each quadrant has shadow aspects of when one is, when a quadrant is not being fulfilled, then there are other shadowy ways of trying to experience that fulfillment. Yeah. The shadows are essentially the action's happening, but the consent isn't happening. Yeah. That's a whole nother talk. Yes, that is. And it's also profound what you shared about, the tendency for a lot of women to be so conditioned and used to Yeah. Not experiencing what it is their body really wants. Yeah. Almost like a passive, I don't know what the word is. Passive not compliance. It's acquiescence. Acquiescence. Yeah. And the thing is, it's not too surprising that we might not know what we want all the time or something. That's fine. That's not surprising at all. But to not know how to experience something that is actually for you because you've never had it, that's what was surprising about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful and profound. And these are the kinds of experiences that practicing the wheel really offers. Yeah. Because it's a safe structure, it's a really clear structure and, whether it's with a lover or a platonic friend it's really, an endless exploration in, in, what touch can provide. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's like developing a language, like a nonverbal lang, like a touch language, essentially. Yeah. I think it's and Betty, wouldn't you say it's never ending? Oh yes, absolutely. It's never ending. I'm still learning stuff about myself in playing. Yeah. And that's the fun and fascination about it. It's like this endless frontier because as the nervous system feels safer and downregulates and just it's available for more pleasure and sensation. Pleasure, sensation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's so great. So the book is coming out in February and remind me of your, because I know you have a personal link, and then is it the school of consent.com? Yeah, it's school. We, my personal side is betty martin.org. And the school of consent, where we do our trainings is school of consent.org. Dot org. Okay. And the book is you can get it from either of those, but the book is wheel of consent book.com. Oh wheel of consent book.com. On both your personal Betty Martin website as well as the school of Consent, there's a page of like hours and hours of instructional videos Yeah. That really break down. The wheel and how to engage with the wheel and subtle awarenesses of what you may encounter with each quadrant. It's just incredibly informative. Yeah. So encouraging people to check that out. And the facilitators training, is that online now or is it in person or both? It's it's online. It's been online. We have a training that's for practitioners. That has been in person's five day training and we haven't done that since last February, and we're starting an online version of that since February. Yeah. And we're full already, actually it's December now we're full. Oh, that's exciting. But there'll be more. Yeah, you can, if you're interested, go to put yourself on the newsletter and we'll let you know. Great. For listeners, I feel in, in the work that I do with clients who've e experienced sexual violations or sexual trauma, that re restoration of the voice the consent piece is so hugely restorative Yeah. To the whole experience of reclaiming your sexual sovereignty. Absolutely. It's like once the voice can. Once the body has the awareness of identifying its wants Yes. And what it doesn't want. Yeah. And then has the practice of voicing it and then somatically experiencing Yeah. The effect of that voice. Yeah. That empowered voice. It's like a new kind of somatic awareness or software being installed into the sensory receptors. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Betty, thank you so much for the wheel, your work and for really courageously sharing your knowledge and the body of your work and your experiences with all of us. You are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Notice what this conversation brings up for you in your body. Are there areas of consent and boundaries in your personal or professional relationships that can be clarified, that need to be communicated, that deserve to be honored? Are there areas of consent and boundaries with colleagues? Friends or lovers that your body needs to clarify, communicate, and honor. How easy is it to ask for what your body really wants to receive? How easy is it to identify? What your body really wants. Is there anything any part of your body wants to receive from you right now in the way of touch, attention, cooperation, or understanding? In the next episode, we welcome Violet Lang. Expert in dating intimacy and relationships who shares very candidly about her journey as a survivor of past sexual abuse and the pivotal turning points and her journey in the restoration and reclamation of her body sensations, sexual pleasure and embodied sovereignty, and her insights as she now holds sacred space for the pleasure path for successful women all over the world. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Consent, Boundaries & Communication, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships, Podcasts on Men in Relationships, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health **Tags:** Bossy massage, Boundaries, Dr. Betty Martin, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Trauma, Waking Up The Hands, Wheel of Consent --- ### [Extended Lovemaking & Deep Intimacy: Slowing Down for Connection](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) **Published:** March 4, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Extended Lovemaking and the expanded pleasures, healing, and consciousness they offer are available to any couple willing to explore the relational principles and sexuality practices discussed in this intimate conversation between Ariel Szabo and Rahi Chun. As both certified Somatic Sex Educators and Sexological Bodyworkers, they’re able to speak to how and why extended lovemaking occurs within the emotional, energetic and sexual bodies of lovers, their effects on the nervous system, and the obstacles that can get in the way. More details about how to explore Extended Lovemaking can be found at: www.DivineUnionForLovers.com. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Extended Lovemaking & Deep Intimacy: Slowing Down for Connection # # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore extended lovemaking and how slowing down deepens intimacy and connection with Ariel Szabo. You’ll learn how presence, pacing, and awareness transform relational experiences. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/ARS26025-scaled.jpg "Divine Union Proofs 2025 | Rahi Chun") [Divine Union For Lovers ](https://divineunionforlovers.com/) [Ariel Szabo’s site](https://www.sacredmoonflower.com/) About Our Guest: Ariel is a cosmic midwife of the soul. She holds and guides you over thresholds as you birth new ways of being in yourself and the world. She works at the intersections of sensual somatics, womb-work, sacred sexuality and plant medicine to de-armor physical, emotional, and energetic spaces within yourself so you can live a life in love. Formally tranined as a sexological bodyworker, somatic sex educator, and psychedelic therapist, Ariel weaves together spiritual and western teachings. She draws upon her deep well of experiences in the plant medicine world with indigenous teachers and western knowledge on working with the nervous system and trauma. Ariel brings a mastery in the art of relational intimacy and loves supporting individuals and couples in cultivating the skills and capacities necessary for experiencing ecstatic connection. She values pleasure and expanded states of consciousness as potent medicine with transformative potential. Ariel currently offers 1:1 & couples sessions, as well as retreats, workshops, & ceremonies in Santa Monica, California and facilitates plant medicine retreats in Peru. ## What You’ll Learn About Extended Lovemaking & Intimacy $ How Extended Lovemaking invites a focus on pleasure and tending to everything that arises – including and especially being present to the moment-by-moment sensations, emotions, and desires, rather than being goal or performance-oriented. $ How ELM necessitates a container of safety and trust in order to surrender to and ride erotic states that touche into our inner aspects and younger selves, as well as metabolizing past wounds within the support of deep connection, relaxation, and expansion. $ How “The 8 Pillars of Intimacy” are at the heart of relating intimately with self, in order to move deeply into a container of relating with each other. $ How examining our psychological attachments to orgasm is necessary in order to edge for extended periods of time, and travel the infinite waves of pleasure peaks without needing to go over the edge. $ How ELM invites and necessitates a depth of self-awareness regarding the conditioned physiological/psychological train tracks the body’s unconscious response often has from arousal to orgasm, and for some, how orgasm can become a way to avoid prolonged authentic intimacy. $ How the more we understand our partner’s nervous system patterns, the more of an ally we can be in our lovemaking by not take triggers personally, and how staying present and bringing pleasure in those triggered moments, can re-write past patterns and stories in the body. $ How ELM invites discoveries of how to make love that is not genitally-focussed leading to a re-writing of what sex even is and can be. $ How in slowing down, the body can become more sensitive, tuning into the greater subtle energies which is counter to what we’ve been taught about going fast and hard, and can lead to a deepening desire for more sexual communion within a constant state of turn-on. $ How following waves of pleasure with stillness and meditation, allows the moments and portals of pleasure to elongate, expanding states of arousal into altered states of consciousness – where boundaries between lovers and existence itself begin to evolve into feelings of oneness, wholeness, and completeness. ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships ](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Sexuality, Aging & Life-long Passion](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/) [Somatic consent and touch awareness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were never taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today's podcast is unique in several ways. First and foremost, the guests are two lovers, partners, and best friends. Myself with my beloved Ariel Zao. She also happens to be an exquisite soul who dives deeply into the mysteries of relational intimacy and alchemy. And together we've created a body of work transmitted from our respective experiences as inquisitive sexual creatures and professional somatic sex educators and sexological body workers, exploring the principles and practices of extended love making. Our work and ways to cultivate the experiences discussed in this interview can be found at Divine Union For lovers.com, today is a very special day. We have a new format, and it's based on a question that we've been getting a lot about. What is extended love making. I'm here with Ariel Zao and we posted this graph on our social media. Two charts comparing goal oriented love making with meditative love making. And there was so many, there was such a response and questions as to what is this? How do we get there? You know what's this experience like that we wanted to create a podcast just to answer these questions. Yeah. Yeah. Just wanna introduce Ariel Zao. Like myself, she is a certified somatic sex educator, a psychological body worker, a psychedelic integrative therapist and so much more. She's very immersed in the world of plant medicines, working with indigenous wise maestros and maestros over the years. And, I would say a, an astute observer practitioner and experiencer of what? Intimate relating is all about, yeah. Cute. Yeah. So Ms. Sbo, extended lovemaking. Extended lovemaking, yes. People are looking at these graphs and saying, how do we get, what is this actually, how would you define extended lovemaking for yourself? And then we can talk about our experiences. Yeah. So extended lovemaking is. Really like one extended periods of time. Love making. With your beloved and really satiating in all the different states of arousal that are available for long periods of time. So like low states of arousal, medium states of arousal, and high states of arousal. Just being really present with what is moment to moment, sensations, emotions, desires. So what I'm hearing is a container that allows and accepts like all of the ex the fullness of the experience without needing to get anywhere or have a result or a goal or any kind of performance based orientation. So shifting out of the performance based orientation, shifting out of orgasm focused orientation and moving into a focus on connection. Oh. I feel relief in my body just hearing that. Yeah. It's like focus on connection and orientation towards pleasure. And tending to everything else that arises within me or my beloved. And that everything that arises during that deep connection and those deep sta extended states of erotic connection, it's really surprising what can come up. It really is. It's amazing. You never know. You never know. You never know. But there's so much that it touches into whether it's from, our inner children, like past sexual experiences. Like it's almost like a container to metabolize what hasn't been integrated in our cellular memory and our psyches. Yeah. And also a container that can bring us into these just like. Clouds of bliss where you feel more relaxed, aroused, expanded, connected, than you've ever felt before. Yeah. It's really amazing that the extended periods of arousal, like what it does to our nervous system and kind of our body's psyche and opening it up to different portals. Yeah. But I wanna, I want to talk about what is actually necessary. For this deep surrender into these deep, these extended arousal states. Yeah. Because there, there needs to be such a container of safety and trust for this to even, be contemplated it seems. Yeah. In creating that container of safety and trust. There's a lot of skills that both parties have to. Have. Or start to build. Yeah. Start to learn. It's never too late to learn these skills. No. And a lot of the skills we've actually brought in and called them the eight pillars of intimacy. Love it so much. The eight pillars of intimacy. I love it because, we, so Ariel and I just hosted a couples retreat recently, and we, it's foundational. The eight pillars are so foundational. Yeah. For any depth of relating intimately. And what we found was that, throughout the three day retreat we kept, couples kept referring back to these eight pillars no matter where they were. And we had couples, starting out in their relationship and together for over a decade, just a wide range. And these eight pillars were the keys in right. So slowing down. Slowing down. Pausing. Pausing. So then you can notice. And then attune. Self attune. Yeah. And then accept what it is your experience is. Uhhuh. Trust it. Trust your own body's wisdom about what it's communicating to you. Yeah. Value it enough, to then take up space with your own experience and communicate whatever it is that you need to make any requests. Yes. Make any shifts. Adjustments. And one of our retreat participants pointed out that the first seven. Are actually all like inner experiences. Like attuning, accepting notice, valuing, like they're all inner and the, it's not until you really harness that self intimacy and self attunement and self communication that you can then communicate what it is that you're experiencing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So these eight pillars of intimacy, we spent we spent time from the very first circle to really lay these out because throughout the three days, we eventually moved into a lot of one-way touch and genital mapping. So partners could get really familiar about the specific erogenous arousal and pleasure patterns of each other's anatomy. But we, it kept going back to these eight pillars as that foundational base, and any time any sort of like crunchiness comes in, you can just return to the pillows. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, like what we emphasize is that it really requires that self attunement, that self intimacy, that self, like being one with oneself in order to meet the other person. Yeah. And that's what really allows for the magic to happen. And then a another place that the pillars come in as like a, actually a necessary piece of really being able to develop the body's capacity to sustain long periods. Arousal for extended love making is ing. Yes. And in order to edge you need to slow down pause. You need to be able to attune to where your body is on the arousal scale. You need to be able to communicate with your partner where you are so you can work together, slow things down. Totally. This is a great example of how the eight pillars. Begins with any form of intimate relating, but it's so critical in something, a practice like edging, right? Like it's like edging, like the more attuned you are to the eight pillars of intimacy, the more successful your edging experiences are gonna be. And I think about both the physiological aspects of edging of just like right attuning to where you are on your, as a scale, slowing, pausing down when you need to, but then also the psychological aspects. The attachments that we might have to having an orgasm and the different reasons why. And when you can really slow down enough to excavate why we have certain attachments, all the different things that brings up, we can start to untangle Yes. And then create new patterns together. Yes. I feel like what you just spoke to is such a critical piece to. Extended love making. Yeah. Because it's important for all of us to really examine and become familiar with the train tracks that are conditioned in our body's response. Once erotic arousal kicks in, it's so common for, the body just to be used to going for that orgasm. Once the arousal kicks in, or if they feel the arousal in their partner kick in to. To facilitate or to, support their orgasm. And what you are speaking to is the attunement, the noticing the valuing, the trusting. It's all supportive to deconstruct what's been unconscious in our bodies for years or decades. Yeah. And keeping us from real deep satiation. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'd be cool to talk about the different. Benefits of not orgasm. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Because like when we speak about extended love making, we're not saying don't ever orgasm or orga, orgasming is bad. Orgasms are beautiful, so great and wonderful. Yeah. However, if we are conditioned to have an orgasm every time that we make love and it might happen rather quickly, yeah. There's so much of a vast terrain that we're missing out on that's missing. Totally missing, not just emotionally, but also sensation and pleasure wise. Yeah. Yeah. Sensation. Pleasure wise. And then, what we found in our extended love making is the depth of self-awareness. That comes about. In understanding our intimacy, our self intimacy, our intimacy, and our avoidance of intimacy patterns. In these extended states. Yeah. And it's important to note that, I see it a lot in my clients. Like people can go for orgasm in as a way to avoid. Feeling vulnerable. Yeah. And feeling like deep intimacy. Yep. It's ironic, but so many couples are in the habit of, okay, orgasm, okay, now I can get to the rest of the day's work, or deal with the kids or do the laundry, or whatever. And like a lot of men will start to feel vulnerable and then ejaculate quickly. Yeah. Because they're too afraid to feel that vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's I feel like it almost feels like a bandaid to me. There's this really. Deep level of connection that a lot of couples are both wanting. Yes. And they're just not quite sure how to get there. And then it's if you both have an orgasm, there are chemicals that flood through you and you can like momentarily feel really good. But there's like a depth of. Connection and authenticity. That's not coming through. Yes. So there's never actually a level of satiation occurring. Yes. Satiation. It's so big. Yeah. It's almost like fast food sex. Yeah. I think, I feel like we've become a culture of fast food sex, and the irony is I am of the belief that as a human species sex is what created the entire human species. It's our primal urge. And I feel like somewhere along the way. Rather than being about connection and intimacy, sex became about performance. And goal. And affirming one's ident, sexual identity and ego. And I'm sure porn culture has a huge role in this, and now there are entire generations weaned on porn culture thinking that's the norm. Yeah. But what everyone's really wanting is deep connection and authentic intimacy. Yeah. And so coming back to extended love making. We talked about the eight pillars of intimacy. I feel like just such a huge part of allowing for that extended love making is really understanding the role your nervous system plays within your body, but particularly when it comes to sexuality, vulnerability, and intimacy. And the more that I learn. For example, about your nervous system. Yeah. The more we can be allies of each other's nervous systems and really work together for those extended states of love making. So big. It's so big and I feel like it's a missing piece out there. Like one really understanding the depth to which the nervous system affects all of our sexual responsiveness. But also, so many couples are getting triggered. And they're taking a per, they think it's about them, right? And if we just understand each other's nervous system. Histories. We just realize, oh, that's from, that's from childhood when this happened, or, like young adulthood when this happened, right? Rather than thinking, oh God I fucked up. And with that knowledge and then. What that allows for us to really start to not take things personally. Then we can, like you said, be allies with each other and actually repair in the moment. Yes, in the moment. If I get triggered and I have some memory from my childhood come up and then you don't take it personally and then you just stay there and presence with me and perhaps even bring some pleasure to that part of me. Yes. Yes. We can do a complete. Rewrite in my body. Yes. Yes. I find that to be the most powerful repair reconditioning, as it's happening in the moment, now you have an ally that understands your nervous system, doesn't take it personally as present with you. And bringing love and pleasure to a past rupture that. That was unpleasant. Yeah. And you know some, I'm such a big fan of somatic reconditioning, like when the body. When the body can experience something similar, a similar dynamic or a similar experience in the past, but with a new ending where it has its choice and voice and it feels supported and empowered. It creates a new story in the body about that experience. Yeah. That's really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of reconditioning, somatic patterns, something that we're both, something that's foundational in our training as somatic sex educators is the practices of one way touch, to recondition and re imprint. And really repair a lot of ruptures that happened in the past, both somatically and relationally. Because the one way touch container. Gives the person receiving the touch, the opportunity to put all their focus on their own sensations, their own needs, desires. It becomes like this mirror to bring everything to the surface. Yes. That some of which may have been subconscious and then. W again, with that focus all on you, you have the space to allow your body to guide you in what is needed for the repair because your body knows Yes. You just have to learn to listen and to attune to it. Yes. And provide that spaciousness. Yeah. And one way touch containers really inherently offer that. Yeah. I find that like clients always learn something new about their bodies. Yeah. In one way touch containers, whether it was like a part of their body that they didn't know felt good or, it's so powerful when a client can, voice their No. Or voice their, adjustment. And have it be like addressed right away. Yeah. It's like a new kind of norm in the body that gets upgraded. Yeah. And I feel like for couples who like really do wanna make some changes to the tracks that they've been on together. One way. Touch containers are like a necessity. I agree. Because there's so much going on when you're in a two-way exchange. Yes. It, for me, it feels almost impossible if you're really trying to make a big shift in a pattern. Totally. Because there's too much going on. There's so much going on. So you make the container smaller. Yes. By shifting the focus onto one person at a time. Yes. Then you can each build up a new muscle and then when you feel ready. You can practice bringing it all together in a larger container where there is more going on. Exactly. So this really comes to, again, we go back to the pillars. It's about slowing down. Yeah. It's about pausing, it's about noticing and attuning, like what does my body authentically want? And so often when. It's like from the time we date, we, we sneak the boyfriend home or sneak the girlfriend home and we're going at it. Yeah. And who knows what's going on. Like thing, hair's being pulled and things are being touched and squeezed and there's just so much happening. Yeah. But to slow the whole process down, we just, I've had so many couples just learn. So much about their partner's body that they had no idea about. Yeah. And then they also learn like what they've been doing that their partner hasn't been that crazy about. For years or decades. Because that is such a common thing. Oh my God. For couples for this thing. Yes. That your partner does. Yes. That you've been enduring. But it's been happening. Not like you have been enduring. Yeah. But it's been going on for so long. It almost becomes scarier and scarier to say something. Totally. I have a client like married 30 years and her husband does not realize that she does not like his touch. How do you share that after 30 years? Yeah. But if they engaged in one way, touch, container, which he's not, he's not willing to do. But if they did, oh my God, he would just learn. So much more about what she actually likes and then that would make him feel so much better about their love making. And just bring so much intimacy to their relationship. And it would make it so much easier for her to voice what she's wanting because there's a container set with the intention for her to do that. Exactly right. So it like creates these containers that we set up, they are what anchor us and create the safety and trust. Yes. It's almost like permission giving. Two really only experience what the body's wanting. Yeah. Nothing else, right? Yeah. And you know what I loved about, the couples retreats that we do we have a we day dedicated to a process called genital mapping. Yeah. Which is also a foundation of somatic sex education. And again, one way touch with that container. With the eight pillars of slowing down, pausing and tuning, all of that. Yeah. And I find that when cl, when clients can advocate for the specific erogenous areas of their genitalia, they feel more empowered. Those erogenous areas get more lit up and turned on because it's being spoken for and the partner learns so much more about how to pleasure their beloved. Yeah. I mean it's, like this long-term couple, over a decade, they just learned so much about each other. Not only about the genitalia the erogenous body erogenous the entire erogenous body. And what they each need Yes. For their erogenous body to fully come on to its capacity. Yes. Yeah. So I feel like this leads into. How important it is for love making when we talk about extended love making. Yeah. To be non genital focused. Not to exclude the genitalia, obviously, but I feel like sex in our culture has, we've been conditioned to think sex is, genital. Genital, and there's just an infinite way, an infinite range of ways to make love. That isn't penetrative or genital, the genital Right. Engagement. Yeah. And I feel like that's what this particular couple really, learned. It's oh, instead of starting at the genitals, I can start, by connecting heart to heart and then engage the body. And it was like a real breakthrough for them. So it's it's a rewriting of what sex even is. Exactly. Yeah. Of what sex even is. Yeah. I had I had a couple, I think they were like 78 and 82 in my three keys course, and they realized at the end of the course that what they really wanted was authentic connection and intimacy. And they thought the way to get there was through sex. So rewriting what sex actually is. Yeah. Is I think necessary for all of us. Oh my God, so necessary. Yeah. Yeah. And so expansive. Yes. Yeah, so expansive. And there's a couple other things coming in for me around slowing down. Yeah. So one thing that I've experienced and I also witness my clients experiencing is in the slowing down my. Body actually becomes more and more sensitive. So I find that. Like I am able to start tuning into more subtle and subtle energies, and then the pleasure actually starts to expand more and more. And the more I slow down, I reach new heights of pleasure, which is so counterintuitive Totally. To like the way we've really been conditioned. Yes. And the way most of us think about it oh, I need more friction, I need more intensity. I need it to be harder, but. Actually when things, now I can see that usually makes my body go more numb. And that the softer and slower things are, my body opens more and there's just more and more sensation. It's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Yeah, it reminds me of, I, I often share that it's a cosmic joke that like, I'm a penis owner, so I can say as a teenager, I used to masturbate to, to magazines and the family bathroom. Yeah. Just afraid that someone's gonna knock on the door. And so we're, we actually train our bodies to come quickly fast, to go fast as possible. Yeah. And then, and for some people it's a stress release and other people rely on vibrators for a quick release. And just to your point, like slowing it down, it can just like open these portals of sensation and I wanna say consciousness like terrains, that when there's an alchemy of erotic energy being exchanged, it's just it's so expansive and I feel like it's almost like being on plant medicine. Yeah, it totally is. You can go into some serious altered states of consciousness and have visions come in. If you tend to have an open right vision field, all sorts of things. It's wild. It's super fun. It's amazing. I feel like our course. Came through these kind of portals of consciousness. Totally. Downloads. Downloads. It's a transmission course. Absolutely A transmission. Yeah. Yeah. And because these portals were open through our alchemical Divine Union practice. Yeah. It, it just made sense that, oh, this is what wants to be shared with the world. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. There's another thing that came in from me around this idea of slowing down. And I can imagine there might be some like couples be like, I like barely have enough desire going to even wanna have. Like quick sex, like how could I ever have a desire to wanna do this? But what I have found in the slowing down, and then also refraining from having an orgasm every single time that I have sex right, is that makes me wanna have more and more sex. 'Cause there's like a, there's like a energy that's been building that. Then it's okay, I don't. I don't release it all. I leave and then go throughout my day in this kind of like low to medium state of arousal and I'm just like walking around. Life turned on. Totally. Which feels so delicious. So good. And then I just, my body is oh, I can't wait to get back in there again. Yes. Totally. Totally. This is what happens when the yearning and the tumescence continues to build. It's like the vibrational frequency of that erotic state can be sensed. Certainly by by the animal world. I know by the human world as well. Yeah. And you, I think this is what magnetism is. People get mag, really magnetic in that way. Yeah. And it's we were interviewed by Claire recently, and she said she was like. At a stoplight and some guy at a gas station across the street. Yeah. Just and it was like dark out. It was dark out. He just his head whipped over, looked right at her, even though she was in a dark car and smiled or waved or something, it's like that magnetic energy. And oh, I just I really just wanna explore that state of. Buzz. Yeah. It's, it is so magnetic and it can, it really evolves. I found that, with us it's after making love for an extended period without, going over into orgasm later that day or the next day when we return to it, it almost picks up. Where we left off. Where we left off. Yeah. And then it continues to expand. And then we, if we can pause and then the next morning or later that day, we can just pick up and it just, it continues to like expand and evolve and it's just fascinating fun and feel so good. Yeah. So I wanna point out, obviously listeners who are listening don't have the visuals of the graph. That we created. But just so that they have a visual, it's like the goal oriented love making was you describe it 'cause you were really the one who put it together. Yeah. So the goal oriented love making, it's right, like your arousal starts to peak. There's a plateau and then it rises into orgasm. And then there's like just a drop. Yeah. And a recovery period. Sure. There's like a sharp drop after the sharp ascension into orgasm. Yeah. And on average this may happen between a three to 15 minute period. Yeah. Yeah. So just since we're talking about time, there's a study done in the US where the average woman. The study showed that the average woman requires somewhere between 20 to 45 minutes of foreplay for their full erogenous capacity to be available. And the average lovemaking time in America is three to seven minutes. And part of why we're such big fans and advocates of extended lovemaking is to make sure the full capacity of both lovers right, get met right. And can like really explore the alchemical consciousness expansion that's available. 'Cause there's just a big disparity between male and female bodies. Yes. On the. Arousal patterns. Yes. And then even between female bodies. Male bodies. Absolutely. There can also still be huge disparities because of course everyone's body is different. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So then this other graph that shows this like meditative love making this extended love making arousal starts to peak and then you come into meditation. Yeah. Stillness and presence right from there. The arousal might actually heighten Yes. Just from bringing more presence to it. And then you might come into some more, still missing presence with it, and then it might drop a little. And then you restimulate and you just, you're following these waves of pleasure. Yes. And continually coming back into this presence, stillness, after you've built up a certain amount of erotic charge Yes. To integrate it. Into the body. And also just to be really like with the moment. Yes. And elongate the experience. Yes. And see this is again, where the eight pillars of intimacy come in, right? Yeah. The slowing down. Yeah. The, we're talking about pausing when we're talking about, bringing the erotic. Embodiment into a place of stillness. Yeah. So the body cells can actually absorb that energy Yeah. And expand through the body so it doesn't need to discharge into ejaculation or orgasm. And you could do this for an hour, you could do this for five hours. It's just, it's endless. It is endless, it is endless. And that's, obviously the body. The body's really malleable. It's very adaptive and like in our experiences it's amazing how, like it's just evolved, like from the early part of our relationship where, we would enjoy extended love making during an afternoon, but now it it goes over a period of days or a period of weeks. And it can continue, it just continues to teach us and almost show us the way. Yeah. Yeah. And then once you are really able to start dropping into these extended. Periods of arousal. The reason we describe it as like an altered state of consciousness because what begins to happen is boundaries morph. Kind of similar if you are someone who's worked with plant medicines and those types of altered states of consciousness. The boundaries between you and your partner can start to dissolve. Yes. The boundaries between you and the universe can start to dissolve and Right. That's that like feeling of oneness. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I find that when we're deep in a neurotic state, there's almost like no identity. And then I can, when there is an, when there is a, an awareness of that, I can like. Support that by letting, it's almost like I can choose to let go of the identity, and then drop into that, alchemical, erotic energy, right? Egoless state. Yeah. And really becoming just like energy forms. Yeah. Energy forms that are that, that are moving in concert, in partnership, in harmony, showing us like where it wants to go. Yeah. I feel like. The way we created this course was to really listen for how it wanted to create through us. Yeah. And I feel like the, I'm just realizing now the, I think the more we experience those extended lovemaking states where we can surrender and allow the energy to guide us in the love making. I think that develops this practice to do that in life. Oh. Absolutely right. Yeah. Because it is this somatic re imprinting. Yeah. And that is how our course came about. Yeah. We were just listening to the downloads and it just it's funny, like the, sometimes we would just need to do more research, which was love making. Extended love making. Yeah. For the next, exercise or the next, like lesson to come through. Yeah. Yeah. It's really divine. So yeah, for me, extended love making, it was all of what we shared. Yeah. I really feel like it's a portal for spiritual consciousness. Yeah. It's I wonder if that state of surrendered. Energetic bliss is really some part of our psyche. Remembering what it was like, like in the womb of the mo mother. Or like when we were one with everything, it's almost like a way to return to that state, but, with the maturity and consciousness that we have now. Yeah. Yeah. And I have found it to be such a beautiful practice in receiving. And then. When I do learn to do it here, I see it happening everywhere in the way that I'm able to just receive life. Yes. Yeah. Isn't that fascinating? It's I feel like the container of extended love making can really expand. It does expand all areas of life, but it become, it can become such a teacher as to how to do that. Yeah. And somatically like our bodies are already. Getting the downloads, of those lessons, and incorporating it somatically so that in a regular life it's just there. Yeah. And start to make love to life. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, I also feel like it's such a synergy and alchemy that it, it supports like collaboration, supports creativity, supports intuition. Just so many, wonderful. Like opportunities in life. Yeah. To share. Yeah. Yeah. And it again encourages us to take our time to slow down to pause. Yeah. It's if you're wanting to experience communion, but your body's not quite there. You can just pause and enjoy so many other penetrative, love making prac, engagements. Yeah. And, we really made a point to Epha. There's a whole module of that in our course because I think people are so fixated on, oh, love making is just, genitals to genitals or penis and vagina and it's oh, I gotta take advantage of my erect penis because it's gonna go away. But there's so many other things. Yeah. Love making is love making and we really want to deemphasize. What's glorified out there, because there's just endless possibilities. Particularly in hetero relationships. Yes. Yes. 'cause there is so much focus on just penis inside vagina as like the end all be all. Yeah. Yeah. The beginning and the end. And there's so much, that could be, a meditative wonderful part, but just one of a gazillion parts. Yeah. Yeah, there's just so much else available. Totally. Ms. Abo, I thank you for spending this time with me today. Oh thank you for having me. Anytime. It's been such a joy and pleasure and I think we have a lot more research to do the next endless hours of research. Yes. Not enough time in the day. No. And with that, we're gonna encourage all the listeners to really slow down. Pause when your body needs to pause. Yeah. Take time to notice like, what is your body wanting, desiring, needing moment to moment. Yeah. Yeah. And then attuning. Attuning. Yes. Attuning to what? What is present and what is real for you. Yeah. And then accepting it. Just accept. Accepting it all. Accepting it all. And sometimes it may be challenging to accept what's. Actually happening, but the body deserves your faith and your trust in accepting what is, yeah. And then trusting what your body is telling you. Yes. That's a big thing. It's like really trusting your body, knowing that it knows. Yeah. And then valuing it. Valuing it. And this really speaks to honoring your body and its inherent wisdom. Yeah. And then. You. You actually have the inner kind of investigation and attunement and acceptance and love to share and communicate what your truth is. Yeah. With your beloved or your partner or whoever you're with. And that alone is gonna deepen and cultivate intimacy. All of this is actually the key to. Connection, connection to intimacy. If you want true intimacy and cultivating, really the satiation of your body's authentic desires. The eight pillars are pretty spectacular. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, sign off here. Thanks for listening. How is today's episode landing in your body right now? Are there ways you can slow down, pause, notice, and invite a greater attunement with your body during lovemaking? Are there practices you can bring into your love making that invite a greater moment to moment pleasure, focus. Rather than a goal or performative focus, when exploring pleasure with yourself or with your beloved links to Divine Union for lovers.com can be found in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Deep Intimacy & Connection, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships, Podcasts on Men in Relationships, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health **Tags:** Ariel Szabo, Extended Lovemaking, Inspiration, Pleasure Practices, Rahi Chun podcast, Sacred Sexuality, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, Tantra, Taoism --- ### [Menopause, Andropause & Libido: Hormones and Sexual Vitality](https://rahichun.com/podcast/menopause-andropause-libido-hormones/) **Published:** August 8, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Dr. Guy Citrin, whose specialty includes hormonal health and anti-aging, shares his insights and experiences on how to best prepare for menopause and andropause and the best ways to thrive through these natural and universal thresholds of life. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Menopause, Andropause & Libido: Hormones and Sexual Vitality # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how hormonal shifts impact libido, energy, and sexual expression with Dr, Guy Citrin. You’ll learn how to navigate menopause and andropause while maintaining vitality and connection. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Dr-Guy-Citrin-Headshot.png "Dr-Guy-Citrin-Headshot | Rahi Chun") Dr. Guy Citrin’s site: [CitrinWellness.com](https://citrinwellness.com/) About Our Guest: Dr. Guy Citrin combines innovative integrative modalities with functional, naturopathic, and conventional medicine for the best possible results. He specializes in gut health, hormones, and regenerative medicine. However, he has a broad background and expertise in primary care and treats many conditions and attempts to help the body heal naturally and therefore, take people off medication when it is safe to do so. Dr. Guy received his naturopathic medical degree from the National University of Health Sciences and was a resident at a renowned affiliate site through Bastyr University . Dr. Guy is a member of the Endocrinology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, the California Naturopathic Doctors Association, and a nationally recognized speaker on gut health for Microbiome Labs. ## What You’ll Learn About Hormones, Libido & Sexual Vitality $ How gut and hormone health are the two fundamental systems to ensure balance for feeling amazing and healthy in the body. $ How “nobody needs to suffer hormonally” yet how 90-95% of people with hormonal imbalance – needlessly suffer. $ How with 50 million people in the US entering menopause, the next big boom in health care will be hormonal health. $ How PMS is believed to be normal for women who bleed, but it is a symptom of an issue that can treated hormonally. $ How when the gonadal system is hypoactive – not very strong and producing less testosterone, it can affect not only one’s libido and erections, but lead to low energy, brain fog, and sleep irregularities – and how this is occurring in younger men 25-40, when a generation ago, it was more typical after 50. $ How progesterone is an anti-anxiety producing chemical, and when this drops during peri-menopause, it can cause irritability, sleep deprivation, greater anxiety, lower libido and lead to inconsistent periods due to hormonal disruption. $ How hormones should be checked and balanced not just as one is approaching peri-menopause, but throughout one’s life to honor one’s vibrancy, healthy sex drive, healthy sleep & metabolism. $ How the NIH study 20 years ago claiming a link between taking hormones and the onset of cancer has been debunked. ## Explore more on Men’s Sexuality This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Related Eps on** Men’s Sexual Health, Prostate & Performance [Intimacy after 60 and lifelong passion ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Pleasure as medicine and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Just as every human being, experiences puberty, every human being will also experience either menopause or andropause. Understanding how hormonal changes can affect your body. From brain fog, sleep and energy levels to sexual health in the form of vaginal lubrication, libido and sex drive and healthy erections is vital to our sexual wholeness, and yet there is still very little research and mainstream discussion about these universal experiences. So I'm delighted to have Dr. Guy Rine, whose specialties include hormonal health. Help us understand what changes can occur, how to prepare for them, and ultimately how to restore and enjoy a magnificent, embodied aliveness through it all. I am really excited to have Dr. Ge Rine join us today. I've been wanting to have Dr. Gai join us for quite some time. I will read his bio. Dr. GE Rine combines innovative integrative modalities with functional naturopathic and conventional medicine for the best results. He specializes in gut health, hormones and regenerative medicine. However, he has a broad background and expertise in primary care and treats many conditions and attempts to help the body heal naturally. Therefore take people off medication when it is safe to do Dr. Guy received his naturopathic medical degree from the National University of Health Sciences and was a resident at a renowned affiliate site through Bester University. He's a member of the Endocrinology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, the California Naturopathic Doctors Association, and a nationally recognized speaker on gut health. For Microbiome Labs now, personally, I can say in addition to resolving my 83-year-old mother's lifelong gut health issues within about six months, I know Dr. Guy as the wizard who balanced my hormones as I was moving through andropause and quite frankly, made my body feel and respond like a teenager in the bedroom. He has supported a number of my clients with similar results. And I'm so thrilled to have him here to discuss one of his many specialties hormone health. How you doing today, Dr. Guy? Good. Thank you so much for having me. Oh man. It's great to have you. So glad. I thought, as a jumping off point, I wanted to ask you what led you to choosing naturopathic medicine as your area of study and specializing in the areas of expertise that, that you've developed and cultivated. Yeah, it's been a, it's been a long road. I it started with a bit of a tragic story. My best friend passed away from cancer at 19, and at her she was working with a holistic health practitioner. This, a chiropractor who's doing something called the Lifeline Technique, which is. He's his applied kinesiology and all sorts of stuff. And it was he was, his name is Darren Weisman. He's a pretty famous functional chiro. And so he started treating her and I never met the guy. And at her, as I'm making her eulogy, I'm like, Darren, thank you so much, whoever you are in this crowd, thank you so much for all of the work. 'cause I really saw transformations, although. Dorothy was her name. She never survived, unfortunately. But I saw massive transformations in her spirit, even in her health. Wow. Across the board. He really helped her. He didn't Wow. Cure the cancer ultimately, but she really transformed as an individual through his care. And I just, they worked together for years and I was like, I was like, just thank you so much. So he comes up to me after the funeral and he goes, I need to see you in my office immediately. Oh, wow. I'm like. For what? I was like, what are you? And he is I need to treat you. And I was like I'm 19. I'm, a freshman in college. Like I don't have the funds to see somebody like you. Like I don't, my parents aren't gonna pay for it. So anyway, he ends up taking me on for free, which is super cool. Wow. Yeah. And he treats me for two years. I started learning everything that they did. They like read all, led all the seminars. Him and his partner, this guy named Tom Bain and really interesting how things work out is Tom Bain ended up being CEO of Microbiome Labs. Amazing. That I ended up speaking for 15 years later. Yeah, so Microbiome Labs, those who don't know is one of the most well researched, funded probiotic companies. They do, they launched their fir, the first spore probiotic called MegaSpore. So things worked out really funny. Anyway, I started training with these guys and I fell in love with holistic medicine because I just saw they changed my life. Amazing. So at 19 years old, they transformed everything. Like all my emotional health, my physical health, everything changed and I saw the power of natural medicine. Wow. And that, and it took me a long time. Like I didn't know which course. I didn't want to be a chiropractor. I knew that. I didn't know much about naturopathic medicine. I didn't know much about acupuncture. My whole family's lines of conventional MDs. Oh, wow. I'm just pretty sure I didn't be an md, but I didn't know, so I started to play around and ultimately at 29, I just decided to try both chiropractic and acupuncture just to see. Oh. So I studied those for about three years. Wow. And so I'm actually very close to I'm halfway through my master's in acupuncture and I'm three quarters of my way through chiropractic. But then at that time I just, I didn't fall in love with those modalities. For me. They're amazing modalities. I just, I didn't wanna practice them. And I went to this naturopathic convention 'cause I was involved already in holistic medicine. It was pretty far along. I fell in love. I fell in love with the, what the naturopaths were saying. I see. Everything I wanted to do personally, I really was like, this is a, an amazing group of people who are dedicated to true healthcare. And yeah, I fell in love. Yeah. And I switched career paths at that point and became a naturopath. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. That, it's incredible that these. Two men, came into your life at that young age Yeah. And really took you under their wing. Really? Yeah. What an incredible education and just personal experience. That's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a lot of mentors in my life that came in at very specific times for a few years that radically transformed my life, and I kept having that come into my life. Until recently and now actually I'm starting a new thing with another mentor. So like I, I see, I seem to have cultivated an ability to have mentorship. Yeah. You're magnetizing them. Yeah, they're coming. They're just like, they're just drawing them like crazy, man. They're just like being drawn to you. It's great. It's great. So I get that you were drawn and really attracted to naturopathic medicine, to the community, the functionality, like everything you were learning about it. I'm curious amongst your many specialties and areas of expertise, there's gut health. There's hormone Reba, hormonal balance, hormone health and anti-aging amongst other specialties. But what drew you to those specifically? Honestly I have found that when you treat the gut in the hormones in a unified system, meaning. When you look at them together, I think it's very important to look at gut health and hormones as a combination. I have found when you treat those systems optimally, 90% of people feel incredible. And I found if you limit one of them or if, like they don't really, don't, excuse me, if they really don't need one, like if somebody's gut health is really in order and then you balance their hormones. But the evaluation of both of those systems, just throughout all my clinical experience, I realized that those were the two fundamental systems for most people. For feeling good. Yeah. Just if you want to feel, if you want to feel the best, you're gonna feel. If your hormones and your gut are not dialed in, you're never gonna feel amazing. It's just, it's impossible in my clinical experience. So it's not that those became necessarily passionate, like I don't. I don't treat things because I'm passionate about them. I treat things because of the result ultimately. Yeah. Like I'm passionate for the result. I came into this to service for others and I want other to feel amazing. So yeah, those became specialties out of necessity because I realized those are the areas. That are required to get me to do my job the best way I possibly can. Got it. Got it. And then the last component is joint pain, right? So you have gut health and hormones that creates, your health of your body. But if your knees really messed up, if you can't walk around, your entire disposition is, and it's strong enough to. Ruin your exercises, potentially get you on off your health track. So joint health is really important. So then I, so then my residency training I learned that I could repair a lot of joints through natural means. So I started doing orthopedic joint injections and regenerative medicine. So that way it's the last piece that I feel for most people's health that I can get. So I, I just try to be as much of. In service to others as I possibly can. Yeah. And I found that those three areas get me to the best benefit for people across the board. Yeah. Yeah. They cover most of the bases there. Yeah. So I wanna focus on hormone health because, I was shocked, frankly, like I'm a somatic sex educator. I wasn't even aware of andropause. And until we started working together, and I didn't realize how relatively easy it could be to rebalance my testosterone levels. And then my friend who I referred your way, she also had a remarkable transformation in her sexual functionality. Just by balancing her hormones. Now everyone goes through puberty. There's a societal understanding of that. I don't feel like mainstream society really understands. How to prepare for perimenopause or menopause or even know what Andrew Puse is. I guess I wanna ask you, if you had the ability to inform like everyone about their hormone health, what are some of the main things that they should know about that Most people don't? So most people think that symptomatically things are normal, right? And mine, like nobody needs to suffer hormonally. So there are. Almost every indication hormonally can either be treated or significantly modified so that symptoms are very low if non-existent. Now, I do see a lot of people with significant hormonal like issues that it does take quite a while to rebalance. But the 90, probably 90 to 95% of people with hormonal imbalance needlessly suffer. So that's first and foremost. Like people just don't, you don't need to have any symptoms of it. Everything that we can treat effectively. The problem is that not a lot of doctors in my, that I've, had privy to understanding a lot of what they do. Not a lot of doctors, unfortunately, know how to treat hormonal issues. Which is a little bit of a problem. We can talk about this later. It's huge. One of the things that I'm creating now is we're creating a, the company that I was just mentioning, we're creating a company to educate doctors. How to treat their patients hormonally. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Every human body is gonna go through menopause andropause. Why is there such a dearth of accurate information on, these symptoms that are so easily a treatable? I don't know why our main, if you're asking me why our mainstream isn't more educated, I don't know. I think there's gonna be a big revolution in hormonal health. Yes. I think the probiotic space opened up gut health and now everybody's heard of probiotics, probiotics 10 years ago, nobody knew what they were. And now as you have I think something like 50 million people in the United States entering menopause in the next five years, there's a massive, this is like the next big boom basically. Totally. In healthcare is gonna be hormonal health in the coming years as women are starting to go into menopause. And. And yeah, all I can say is that I've treated it so often and with so many different types of people that I just say symptomatically. It's just it's unnecessary to experience symptoms and that can be from even as minor as ccra, like women think that PMS. Is normal. It comes with the territory. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They're like, of course I have PMS, I'm a female, right? If you ask a woman who has PMS, they don't think that's a problem, but it is a problem. PS is not, it should not be experienced. Pmms is a symptom of an issue. Hormonally, heavy flow, heavy menstruation, cramping all that stuff are symptoms that your cycle isn't properly balanced, which is a hormonal issue. And for males, it's the same thing. You mentioned andropause. Andropause has been a misnomer but basically andropause by definition means hypogonadism or ultimately decreased testosterone, right? It just means. That the gonadal system is hypoactive, meaning it's not very strong at the moment, and that you're producing less testosterone. And but I'm seeing that from guys who are 25 younger. Yeah. All the way through 40. And then, it's 40 enough Yeah. Is, 20. You're seeing young, you're seeing younger people, younger men, younger. Having these hormonal imbalances yeah. Is that just a reflection of all the hormones that are in our food and in our environment? There is a lot of, there's a lot of reasons. I can't isolate one particular right. 'cause everybody's chemistry is gonna be unique. But I can list all the potential causes if you want me to do that. No, that's okay. That's gonna create a dark cloud on, on this interview. Yeah. Let's get practical because I wanna empower listeners. With, yeah. Practical information. So for women who are about to go through, let's say perimenopause, what should they be doing and in what ways can they prepare their bodies for menopause? So if we're gonna, let's do a little bit of a deep dive because I think the education is the most important part for people to understand what's going on with their cycle. Awesome. Basically what happens for most females is that the first thing that starts to happen is that they start to their ovulation. Seems to falter a little bit, right? Because potentially the quality of their eggs or their egg release isn't happening once a month as clockwork, right? That's technically perimenopause is that you start to miss ovulation. So you won't ovulate one cycle. You'll miss a period. You might be really late to ovulate another cycle then your period. So ultimately what happens is that when you release an egg, the, for a female, the, that creates a progesterone spike, ultimately. And that's, and the body keeps that. It's called the corpus lium. It's in the ovaries and it keeps making progesterone. In order to wait for fertilization because pres progesterone spikes to keep the body from not menstruating, basically. And so what happens is, and progesterone's the most important hormone, in my opinion for females in perimenopause because that's what we see really, the deviations in the hormones for females. So they'll have differentiation in the amount of progesterone that they create. So they'll either stop making enough progesterone. Because again, of the quality of the egg or the corpus lium, which is the egg remnant. And so as that decreases their cycle gets all wonky. And progesterone is an anti-anxiety inducing chemical. And it's a, and it's a sedative as well. So for females, it's vastly important that they, for them this feel. Normal emotionally to feel what's the best way to say it? To feel emotionally responsive and emotionally fulfilled in many ways. Yes. Yes. If their progesterone decreases, they can sense like a massive amount of irritability. I see. And then they don't sleep as properly. They're not sleeping as good, which is also gonna, that would create anybody to have anxiety issues. But also because it's an anzio, anti anxiolytic, it create it will help balance any anxious activity in the brain. So they start to feel. And they'll probably admit to this, they start to feel a little bit crazy. That's a lot of women come in and they're like I'm starting to feel a little crazy. Like I'm not I don't feel in my body as much as I was before, right? Like things are easily, more easily more disruptive. And then they get all the complications of. Menopause, which is lower metabolism, which results in increased weight. That's usually the big ones. Hair loss, weight gain anxiety, right? Those are the three, probably the three big associations to perimenopause, and then their cycle gets all super wonky, like they can go super normal, but the quality of their period is different or they start missing periods every few months or, whatever. However the symptoms balance out, ultimately it's a hormonal disruption. And those hormones are very vital to create a feeling of like just health and normalcy in the body. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then libido is a big thing that starts to decrease for females. And then what happens in menopause, right? So you go through the cycle, so everything is normal, let's say to typically typical it's 45, around, right around there. 45, 46. Then for a typical female, they'll go from like 45 to 48 through perimenopause. And then around 48 to 52 in that range, they'll start menopause. And that can vary by, three or four years in each direction, but Right. That's about the normal. And then right at the induction of menopause, which is really classified as no period for 12 months. 'Cause the body really doesn't have any more eggs to release, right? That's when the brain will start shutting down the signals to make more hormones. And that's where females start to experience hot flashes, significant night sweats, vaginal dryness lubrication issues across the board, and low libido poor sleep, weight gain. They start to experience all these symptoms because those are what the hormones do, and that's why it's so vital to focus on hormonal health because yes. Those hormones keep you feeling young and happy and healthy and your metabolism high. And yeah, being at an optimal kind of embodied state. So then should, is your recommendation for people approaching perimenopause to start testing, to see where there are hormonal balance or imbalance is. Would that be, would optimal? So you start in perimenopause and then so you, so understanding that in a few years, you're gonna move through menopause and so you can be ahead of the curve before the side effects come into play. I think for females across the board and, it's very complicated. Female hormones are very complicated from puberty to menopause. They vary, they cycle change depending on what's going on. Excuse me, in their life, they, they have a variety of things that come up and I think it's really important for them to properly balance their hormones throughout their life. So I don't think it's just important during perimenopause. I think it's really important before. And what happens is, and we can talk about puberty in the onset. What happens is that most gynecologists, unfortunately, prescribe hormone when there's any hormonal disruption. Okay. And the thought behind that is that basically your body is processing your own hormones improperly. So we're gonna turn off your own system and we're gonna give you what we know is a healthy dose of hormone. And then that healthy dose of hormone is gonna override your own systems production of hormones, which is improperly utilized. In order to cover it up, but it's literally the same. It's a bandaid. That's literally all it is. It's a bandaid because the minute you rip the bandaid off, right? At some point a female's gonna have to rip the bandaid off. Things can get significantly worse because they were never repaired in the first place. And some women are, seem to respond better. Like some people will take birth control and then when they start to rebalance their hormones, they do it in a proper way. But that, in my experience, is really the minority. The majority of females that I've seen that cover up symptoms with birth control tend to have those symptoms when they come back to them in their thirties. I see. So let's actually maybe this will help, let's actually walk through the course of a female's health life in terms of hormones. Cool. Yeah. So basically at the onset of menstruation, they'll start to develop progesterone, estrogen, testosterones. Right? Those are the three main ones and all the metabolites that come with them. That they're gonna release an egg until they go into perimenopause or they start releasing. They start really, their egg saturation gets a little bit weaker and they may skip egg retrieval or it might be more in one ovary than the other. 'cause they switch between ovaries every month. So the left over will release an egg one month, and then the next month the right over will release and so forth throughout their entire life. And then they hit perimenopause. And when that starts to have fluctuations, particularly in progesterone is the big one. And then when the onset of menopause is, then they shut down all of their hormones. So then they shut down estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. And so the whole way through, if there are symptoms present, it means that their bodies are not utilizing or metabolizing their, the way that they process their hormones naturally, properly. And so that's what's really important. You can balance that at any point in a female's life. And once you balance and correct that, it stays corrected. That's the beautiful part, is what I've seen, is they don't have to be on a corrective replacement forever. They usually, it takes about a, it can take six months to a year for them to be on some sort of regimen. And if you're doing the correctives, you can balance their hormones properly. Now, when they hit perimenopause and menopause. Usually I advocate for bioidentical hormone replacement for females. And that would be to replace the bioidentical because they can't make anymore. So if they can't make anymore, there's nothing else I can feed the body to make more hormone if the body stops making hormone. All I can do at that point is replace it, but I can replace it in what's called bioidentical hormones, meaning I can replace it in the same version that the body uses, right? So that there's no disruption to the body. The body doesn't know the difference. And really recently, I have to say like after doing this for so many years, I really think females like males should be on hormone replacement, some version of it, even up till their eighties. The thinking historically has been to get them off before 60, but if you research that information, it's really antiquated. It really doesn't make sense. What is the what is, what's the past rationale saying that they should be off at in their sixties? Most females concerned when getting on hormones, and most doctors, what they've been told. Is that giving hormones causes cancer. I see. This is inaccurate. It's not accurate anymore. There was two major studies, both with 10,000 females. The first study was done through the NIH and basically concluded for no reason really in my understanding. I've read through the study, I didn't really understand why, but they said that the study was, and this is all current, almost still current thinking, which is really problematic. That providing hormones causes cancer. And you should only do it if you're gonna do it as a replacement until you're 60 years old. More because cancer is more prevalent to to achieve after 60. So then this whole new study came out women's Health Organization did it. And there was also like eight or 10,000 people. There was a massive amount of people and they. They actually confirmed that the findings from the first study were not accurate. And they basically said that there is no correlation with the onset of cancer from providing hormones. And this is really important for most females to understand because they think that giving hormones causes cancer. They still think to this day, and this study was done like over 20 years ago. Wow. That first study had a lot of impact. A lot of impact, as a somatic sex educator, understanding that vaginal dryness, vaginal tissue thinning, lack of lubrication. If they're encouraged to no longer take hormones and their homeowners are not being balanced after 60 pretty, it's like inviting painful sex and it's gonna result in a lot of less sex and a lot of less of that sexual empowerment. It's also libido in the health of the tissue. One of the things that females. That's very important for many females to understand is that estrogen keeps vaginal tissue healthy. So it prevents vaginal or anal prolapse. Because a lot of that area, so a lot of women, and hot flashes, night sweats, libido, vitality. Increasing your metabolism, there's a lot of benefit to those hormones. Basically the study ultimately said, the second study ultimately said that if you are going to get breast cancer or ovarian cancer, and those are estrogen dominant cancers. Providing the estrogen, is it hormone is gonna feed it, right? Because if the cancer creates itself and you're feeding it this fuel, of course it's gonna eat that fuel and grow faster. But there is no correlation that we know of that providing those hormones causes that cancer. So cancer is a problem in cellular replication, right? The cell goes crazy, it starts to replicate rapidly, it loses control. The body's immune system can attack it, and that creates, a tumor ultimately. It creates. Stages of cancer, and then sometimes they feed off things like glucose and other chemicals. And specifically there are cancers for females that are estrogen dominant, meaning they're gonna feed off the estrogen. So for females that are more likely to develop breast cancer that they have the genes or they have a strong family history, sometimes it's not advisable in those because. We don't wanna risk. Sure. Mutating a cancer from stage one if it was to develop to stage four, right? But there is no correlation as far as we know that providing hormones, you asked what's the best thing for women to do? So ultimately you have to get with a hormone doctor. That's the hardest part, because it's too complicated. Like I said, wait. Okay. When you say a hormone doctor, do you mean a naturopathic doctor? Anybody who understands hormones. But it sounds to me like kind of the Western medical point of view. I don't know. Would you recommend a western medical point of view? Because it sounds like they're not holistic in their approach and they're, relying on data that's really outdated depending on the practitioner, right? Yes. I would not rule out for most females. To see a conventional medical doctor for hormone balancing, no. Okay. 'cause they're pretty much only gonna provide birth control for menopause. I've also not been a. I've just not been very overly impressed with what people come back to with what they're on. I don't usually, I don't understand why sometimes doctors put these females on the type of hormones that they put 'em on. I am a big proponent of bioidentical replacement. Is there no side effect or drawback to bioidentical hormones? No, not in the way that ultimately, other than just if you were to re get a estrogen dominant cancer feeding it. Yes. That would be a side effect. Okay. Not a side effect from creating a dysfunction or disease. So I think they're, I think they're incredibly safe. I think as long as females get checked out regularly. That's my approach, and I like them. Because of the way they metabolize on the body, I feel like the body knows what to do with them because they're made from yams and they're typically and they mimic the biology of female hormones. Dr. Guy, you mentioned herbs earlier as another way. What are some of the herbs that, that people can take and in what form should they take them? So there's all sorts of herbs, right? And so this is literally what I'm, I've been spending four years doing this is what I was trying to, I'm trying to create a yes company that's gonna help females input their labs and symptoms and get a list of all the herbs that would be beneficial for them. So great. So we want, we wanna help because ultimately I just see a massive lack in the field of the proper education. And so you have some beautiful over the counter companies, females have probably heard of, like things like Flow, there's other there's a lot of companies like Flow that they do PMS support. There's contraptions that you can use, but there's nothing that I've seen so far that's individualized to the patient so far. It says, listen, these are. These are where you're problematic. So some examples, right? So if you're low on estrogen and you need to stimulate the production of just estrogen, Vitex would be amazing. You could use that with Don, which is a, Angelica Synesis is the western version of that. There's so many, honestly, anything from. People have heard of all sorts of stuff, right? Primrose oil or B six. Literally there's like dozens of herbs that you can use. So it gets very complicated with what do I need to take to balance my hormones correctly? And unfortunately I haven't seen, so the nice thing is we're gonna have a system soon that's gonna be available to people for that. But until then, or if they wanna work with somebody, just finding a holistic. Somebody holistically trained in hormones is, in my opinion, the best thing to do because they're gonna understand how to read and interpret and understand what the deficiencies are and how to balance them naturally. How to balance them naturally. Yeah. Your company and what you've been working on sounds so amazing that it's specifically tailored to each person's composition. It sounds amazing, and so I'm assuming this is both for men and for women to balance their hormones. Actually it's, we're not doing it for men. What men are super simple. Really straightforward. Yeah. Okay. Let's switch to men andropause then. Okay. All right. Yeah. Men are very simple hormonally. Okay. That's good. That's good. That's great. You mentioned earlier that you're seeing imbalanced testosterone in bodies as young as their twenties now. Yeah. It just makes me wonder 'cause I probably had andropause for maybe, I mean at least a couple of years, maybe five years before I found Jew and realized, that was the issue. But like my change in energy, brain fog, definitely libido, definitely erections, like all these things were. Addressed pretty quickly. I'm wondering, if I'm a somatic sex educator and I am not even aware of andropause, I'm just wondering about the kind of mainstream society, like what percentage of men out there have no clue that their testosterone levels are lower than they need to be? Yeah, it's crazy. I've been, it's crazy seeing levels. I've been seeing levels in 20 year olds and they're like two hundreds. Wow. So a typical range for testosterone is gonna be three 30, I believe is the latest to about a thousand depending on the lab. So th let's just say 300 to a thousand is the reference range for total testosterone in the serum or blood. So for a male, for them to feel really optimal, and you can attest to this personally, a male who can feel really optimal, they're gonna look to levels between 700 to a thousand. Yeah. And that's really what a male is gonna feel. Probably his best in terms of vitality, strength, ability to heal. Sexual drive, libido. Yeah. Pleasure. Ultimately, sexually, obviously, erection, quality, all that stuff all plays together for males in that range. Yeah. It's not the only thing, there's, we can talk about. Actual andropause and what erectile dysfunction is. If that's actually a little bit of a separate issue, but So for males it's so the levels to balance are 300 to a thousand and I've been seeing levels for males. Come in two to 400 in many 20 year olds or early 30 year olds. Amazing for men. And Andrew Paw. So you mentioned earlier you men are much more straightforward to address 'cause I remember when we met you said, if you catch it early, you can address it with herbs. You could address it with supplements, medication, T shots. And you said, t shots, testosterone shots, which, like talking to my peers, a lot of guys out there are taking testosterone shots. But to your point earlier, it's inhibiting the body's own production of its own testosterone and replacing that. Yeah. And as you told me, it's like a life sentence. Once you get on t shots, you have to stay on them. Yeah. So as far as male options or options for men going through andropause, what do you recommend at different junctures of their testosterone imbalance? So first of all, the same concept for males. I always recommend a yearly check-in of hormones. And men don't check hormones as part of their, as part of their physical exam, right? So they're gonna go look for a physical, they're gonna be like, oh, your white blood cells and red blood cells are healthy. You're healthy. That's what a ultimately, they're gonna look at a couple more markers, but a typical physical exam from a conventional doctor yeah. Honestly, is a disgrace to how much we can get interpret in the blood, right? It doesn't give you an assessment of how you feel. It just tells the doctor. Is there an infection or a disease state prevalent, right? And there's so many stages in a person's life before they become disease ridden, right? So they so like for females, I always recommend for males once a year, a proper blood test that checks all the different components of your blood. That tells me, functionally, how are you feeling? How are you doing? How do we prevent the onset of disease? And how do we optimize the body's natural ability to feel great. So in terms of the options, so let's just say a guy comes in, their testosterone's 300 and they feel like crap and they're exhausted and they have no sex drive and they're anxious. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try to rebalance and like I told you, what I'm seeing all the time now is that guys are coming in and a typical doctor, if they see low testosterone's gonna be like, cool. Take testosterone for a little bit. Testosterone in the form of T shots, you mean? Yeah, exactly. So if there's a testosterone shot, they're gonna have to do a shot once or twice a week. Some people cycle every three to four days, some people cycle every seven to eight days. There's different protocols for why people would do that. Which we can talk about if you'd like, but ultimately people balance out their testosterone through testosterone injections. And those are gonna be a lot of the people who then supplement, but it's the same. It's a little bit different than how it works in a female. The minute you get off of testosterone, your body wasn't really making testosterone the same concept as a female if there was a problem, right? If there's a hormonal problem and you bandaid it by giving hormones that's an issue, right? We don't have to do that anymore. We don't have to, we don't not have to supplement with hormones to replace. Or modify hormonal deficiency for men and women. And so for men when they're gonna, and I see this a lot of times and I've worked with a couple athletes and I've worked with a couple people who are like 45. This is a very typical case for me. I see a guy who comes in at 45 and he goes, I'm just not feeling great anymore on this testosterone injections. As much as I was. Or I'm sick of taking 'em, and I've been on 'em for four years. So what was your testosterone at 41? I was two 15. I'm like, okay, so we have to balance, we have to get your testosterone at 700 to a thousand. How are we gonna do that? If you are on testosterone for that long, and then I suddenly take away the testosterone, the body hasn't been making testosterone in four years. It then shuts down its ability to make testosterone anymore. And so many times I cannot get the body to make any more testosterone on its own. Wow. Which means that person has to be on testosterone shots for the next three years for the rest of their so there is a point, there is a point in a male's life where their body's like menopause, which you said andropause. Andropause is the male version of menopause, right? Technically. But it's when the body cannot make any more hormones substantially in adequate levels. And when that's the case, then yes, giving testosterone would be adequate, but I really push males. As long as possible. Develop really high levels of testosterone on their own until the point where they cannot produce any more physically. Their body literally cannot make enough testosterone as they need. At that point, we give them testosterone replacement, but that could be anywhere between 55 to 70 years old. So if I can save somebody, 20 years of testosterone injections or 15 years of testosterone injections, that's incredible. That is incredible. Yeah. Incredibly expensive. And second of all, I don't know if it's that healthy, if you can make your own testosterone, why get on a replacement if you don't need to? Totally. Totally. So that's the concept, the concept is. Let's balance and fix hormones until the point where they cannot be produced anymore in the body for both male and female. And then for males, how we do that. You ask what's the protocol? How do we increase? So I use pharmaceuticals actually. I've had really good, I've had some good luck with the natural herbs, and I think one of the reasons why. I'm developing this product for females mostly is because for guys, the pharmaceuticals work so well. They work a little bit better than the naturals. I usually use pharmaceuticals, so I'll use something like Clomid or in Clomophine. Which is the more which is the more recent, like in the new, people are more interested in Clomophine and an estrogen balancer, and that's really all guys need. They need it. They need to block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. They need to bind their estrogen and eliminate it as properly as possible, and then they need to boost their own production of testosterone. Yeah. Yeah. And as you can attest to, that's what we did, right? If you wanna talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, totally. It worked beautifully. It worked beautifully. Yeah. Wow. That was really a great hormone 1 0 1 education professor Rine. Thank you. That was great. We just have a few minutes left, so I wanted to ask you, in, in the same way that you've educated us about, how to address hormones or hormone health and balancing and how that works in the body, I know anti-aging is another one of your specialties. What should everyone know in regards to simple ways or natural methods to expand our health and vitality as we, move into our middle age? Oh man, that's a big question. It's a question I could probably talk, I could probably talk five hours on that one. I have to have you back then. I just know that, I just know that you're someone who's got all this like secret info and secret weapons, and like secret knowledge. Yeah. I've been, I've been studying this stuff for 20 years, very in depth and I try to stay on the latest information, so anti-aging. For most people, they don't understand what that means. They're just like, oh, I want to be, I want to feel 20, right? I'm 60, but I want to feel 20. And so how do we do that? How do I get somebody's physiology to replicate? At a younger age, and that's very complicated. It's not an easy there's many solutions. There's many tips and tricks. There's a lot of really cool things that you can do, right? I do think that the biggest reduction of anti-aging is ultimately stress. And sugar. You eliminate stress and sugar, specifically gluten. Gluten is a form of sugar. People don't understand how it breaks down in the body, but grains are just a form of glucose. So you eliminate unhealthy destress to the gut and the body, it will prolong your life. That is the most basic version of anti-aging. And then you have all the cool stuff to do. So what I love to do with people is I love to get 'em to. Optimal as far as their bodies can push, right? How do I get you to make all of your own hormones heal your gut, get you to feel amazing on your own right, without having to take all this other stuff, and then if you wanna take the fun, other stuff you can peptide therapy is amazing. I've been playing a lot with exosomes, which is a stem cell derivative. Exosomes are probably one of my favorite things in the world. I've seen unbelievable transformations with exosome therapy. I do a lot of bl P-R-P-P-R-F. Yes. A lot of people probably haven't heard PRF, so there's a, this topic and then you have all the cool nutraceuticals that you can take. You have all the nootropics, there's all this research coming about. Psychedelic therapy for mental rehabilitation things like ketamine. Oh yeah. Psilocybin. So how do we achieve optimal? Is such a interesting question. And I think because I practiced in Beverly Hills, I just. See a lot of people who are super high functioning, they want to be at the best, right? Sure. And money. And money for a lot of these guys is not the issue, right? They're Exactly. So financially they're like, okay, cool. If it's a few thousand, cool, we can pay for it, but what's the best I can do? And I've had that question asked so many times that I really have to be knowledgeable. On what it is that I can do for somebody. So there's so much it's not a question I can answer in three minutes. Peptides is like a very recent trend that's getting a lot of popularity that I've been using for years. I really stand behind peptides. I think they're incredible. But, and exosomes. Yeah. And exosomes. And then hormone balancing yes. And then inflammatory markers in the gut are such an indication of overall health. And then specific herbs like GoTo Cola there's telomere lengthening herbs. There's astragalus there. There's so many things that you can take and do. It's overwhelming. I try to. And then you have the cold plunges and the infrareds, right? And the light therapies, right? There's all this cool stuff that's coming out that's okay, we can balance your cortisol this way, we can rehabilitate your mitochondria this way. We coq 10, nano nine, coq 10. There's I could literally go on for hours about all the different cool things that somebody should take. But always what I say is the best is limit the amount of toxins you're getting in. And make sure sleep and digestion are on point. The fundamentals are the biggest anti-aging tools we have, honestly. Yep. If you have a, if you have a fire inside that's burning you up, no matter how many cool stem cells you're gonna put in, are not gonna fix the problem. Sure. Before we sign off, Dr. Guy what's the timeline for. The the work you've been doing these last four years and the hormone company that you're gonna launch. So fingers crossed. We're gonna launch by July. So awesome. So exciting, man. So great. No Dr. Guy, thank you so much for your time today and all of your sharing your wisdom and your expertise and your experiences. I think it'll be really stimulating and empowering for our listeners. I really appreciate it. Amazing. A pleasure. Be here. And thank you so much for me. How is this episode landing for you in your body right now? Have you ever had a blood panel performed by a naturopathic doctor specializing in hormonal health? Are there natural herbs you can supplement with to ensure your hormonal health is at its optimum? When you tune into your body, what are the kinds of support your body is wanting from you? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Hormones & Aging, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Genital Dearmoring: Somatic Sexual Healing & Trauma Release](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) **Published:** January 10, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Rahi Chun, creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness, is interviewed by Caffyn Jesse, creator of the Intimacy Educator training. They discuss the modalities that have informed Rahi's unique approach to genital dearmouring, namely repairing ruptures sequentially from childhood to adolescence to adulthood - including neuroaffective touch, developmental psychology, and sexological bodywork, as well as the experiences of living in a Buddhist monastery and plant medicine journeys that have informed his space-holding for restoring sexual wholeness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Genital Dearmoring: Somatic Sexual Healing & Trauma Release # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore genital de-armoring and how the body holds and releases tension. You’ll learn how restoring genital sensation supports healing, pleasure, and connection. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/FBprofilepic.jpg "FBprofilepic | Rahi Chun") [“The 3 Keys To Genital Dearmouring for Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure” ](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) [“Divine Union for Lovers” ](https://divineunionforlovers.com/) About Our Guests: Rahi combines his training and experience as a CA state-certified Somatic Sex Educator/Sexological Bodyworker, Certified TRE Provider, NeuroAffective Touch Practitioner, Life Coach with an M.A. in Spiritual Psychology, with certifications in Family Constellations Therapy, DeArmouring Arts, Chi Nei Tsang & Karsai Nei Tsang, and STREAM (Scar Tissue Remediation and Management) in his facilitation of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. He also hosts the Organic Sexuality Podcast, and loves travel, meditation, spirituality and kombucha with sea salt vinegar chips. Caffyn Jesse is a queer elder, sacred intimate, teacher and writer who revels in the power and pleasures of the erotic. They are a renowned teacher of sex, intimacy and healing trauma with pleasure. Encouraging neuroplastic change to support sexual healing and expanded pleasure, unwinding sexual trauma, exploring the intersection of sex and spirit, creating erotic community are all core to their work and play. Caffyn is a tireless advocate of embodied love. ## What You’ll Learn About Genital De-armoring & Trauma Release $ How genital dearmouring is an invitation to re-connect and explore a deepening intimacy between the genitalia and their body-owner $ How repairing ruptures occurring within the body sequentially involves examining influences from our developmental and adolescent years before resolving those experienced in adulthood $ How so much of releasing chronic guarding patterns within the tissues and fascia of the genitalia involves how safe an environment we can create for the body to yield and meet its own life force. $ How the more the body’s choices and desires are advocated for, the more evidence the body has in recognizing it no longer needs genital armour $ How genital mapping provides the body with greater awareness and specificity to advocate for its desires and deepen intimacy with one’s self and lovers $ How important it is to move from the outer parts of the body’s erogenous areas slowly inwards, and only when the body feels an inherent trust and full-bodied “Yes.” $ How the cervix can become armored from penetrative contact before there’s sufficient foreplay and how the upper left & right quadrants tend to elicit greater sensitivity in the dearmouring process $ How the pressure one places on one’s body to perform sexually is a common way numbness and armour can form in the genitalia $ How the pressure one places on one’s body to perform sexually is a common way numbness and armour can form in the genitalia ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion ](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [Genital health and pleasure explained ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [Genital armoring and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [Pelvic pain and scar tissue healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [Cervical healing and orgasmic potential ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) [How to restore genital sensation from numbness or pain](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-to-restore-genital-sensations-pleasure/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. So after several years of interviewing fellow somatic sexuality practitioners in the field today, I had the joyous opportunity to be interviewed by my dear friend and colleague. Ka and Jesse Kahan and I explore the influences that have informed my approach to genital deaming, including neuro effecti, touch, developmental psychology, and sexological body work, as well as the experiences that have informed my space holding, including vipasana meditation and plant medicine journeys. With their inquisitive mind and generous heart, Kahan is always a delight to explore such rich themes with. So here we are with Rahi Chun. And I've been following RA's work for many years now, and over the past few years we've become dear friends, so I feel so lucky and honored and happy to be interviewing Rahi today for his own wonderful organic sexuality podcast. So Rahi iss, a hugely respected colleague, an esteemed teacher, a fellow somatic sex educator who's evolved his own unique teachings. Brought them so generously into the field where it said just huge influence. So alongside his in-depth work with clients one-on-one over many years, Rahi Hass. Done in-depth studies in many areas of trauma and healing, anatomy, pleasure, empowered choice, and voice, and spiritual psychology. So Rahi has a very busy practice offering one-to-one sessions, mostly in Los Angeles, where he's based, and he also travels the world with his teachings. But wherever you live we're just so fortunate that Rahi ISS now offering an online genital diaring training, and we're gonna speak about that today. So I've had the privilege of receiving a genital diaring session with Rahi, and I can attest how his unique approach to this work has really astonishing positive impacts because I've struggled with Vulvadinya for four decades. That's four. 40 years of genital pain. And so I wasn't expecting very much with a session, but with Rahi unique approach, I experienced a, an really unexpected, ecstatic diaring of both of my body and my genitals and my whole body, and also my, a sense of that deaming of the soul. So that can sound pretty mystifying this whole process. So Rahi, can you just explain a little bit about what Deaming is and how armor shows up in our body and in our genitals? Sure. Thank you for that beautiful introduction. Kahan. Yeah, it's a real honor to be interviewed by you. I like to think of genital armor and the process of de arming as in a very simple way, reestablishing an intimate relationship and connection with our genitalia. I feel like so much of. How armor forms comes about as a result of a disconnect. And there's something in the way of really attuning to listening for and responding to the desires, needs, and voice of our genitalia. So it's really reestablishing and like a reconnection with that part of our body. You, you hold space for deaming in such a unique way. Can you tell me something about how you evolved your unique approach to genital deaming, some of your important experiences along the way. Sure. Yeah. The way I often explain the approach of somatic sexual wholeness is that we repair ruptures. Sequentially starting with the influences from the client's body's childhood because oftentimes our adult sexual behaviors, patterns and experiences and desires can be rooted back, threaded back to events from our childhood. So I like to start there and do a thorough intake, and I like to go back as far as what were the emotions during the gestation period, before the birthing. And then of course the birthing experience itself is very significant because that can pair oxytocin with certain emotions or certain struggles or pleasures that can lead to patterns throughout one's life. So it's investigating the influences during the developmental years and then. As we follow the trajectory of the body's evolution, usually in adolescence when a young being is individuating the family group shifts from being their biological family to their peer family, and oftentimes there are. Instances affecting one's boundaries and consent because it's something we're not taught. And for a lot of us, it usually involves a lot of trial and error and oftentimes a violation of boundaries. And so we really look at that individuation process. And how was the body and one's sexuality affected? When it comes to its trust, its voice, and its consent. And then usually those are like the building blocks that reveal how any armor shows up in the body as an adult. And there's different approaches. I've been influenced by the tantric approach, the Taos approach, the psychosomatic approach, as well as the pleasure approach and rewiring pleasure as a way to de arm. And I knew you've been such a great influence in that realm for me with all of the books and trainings. But as far as like how my approach developed, honestly. I wish I could say like I thought this through, as most practitioners know, it's our clients who are really the guiding lights and the lighthouses that guide us and that, lead us to different inquiries. And, early on it was just really clear to me that we have to really start with the safety within the nervous system. And that is really everything as far as how the body responds to touch, can attune to its desires for touch can, have oxygenated tissues to experience the pleasures. This is all rooted in the nervous system and so I really love exploring how can we best create an environment for the nervous system to feel safe and yield to its own life force. Yes. Yielding to its own life force. I love that. One thing I've loved experiencing with you and experienced you as a teacher is in this exercise of how do we as practitioners support a client in yielding to receive support. Now, that's a practice you developed that's based on neuro effecti. Touch and healing infant attachment wounds, as you were saying, like going all the way back to our infant experience. And then thinking of me as a little baby and a really chaotic, traumatic kind of environment in my family home and yourself as a little baby, receiving your mother's touch to, to heal your legs. And how that, how important that. Your legs online. Yeah, these infant attachment wounds, as you're saying, become part of our nervous system, even part of our DNA expression, like from the earliest infancy and that fielding to receive support exercise. Is about re-patterning the relational field and one's own nervous system, but that interpersonal nervous system as well. Experience of being cared for and partnered and listened to and supported physically to yield to release. I feel like it's really profound, the depths to which our infant ruptures can be repaired. By simple attune touch, and it needs to be a relational touch dynamic because when the rupture occurs in a relational dynamic, it's really best very effectively repaired in a relational dynamic. And what you're speaking to Kahan the unmet needs of an infant whether it's touch needs that were not attended to or touch that was unwanted lives in the body's memory, and it will be remembered every time there is something similar or familiar. To reminded of that childhood wound. So it could be with a very safe, loving adult partner, but the way they are touching you may elicit this nervous system response, which puts you into a fight flight or fa mode or a freeze state. And so it can be repaired. As you mentioned, I've been very influenced by this modality, neuro effecti touch developed by Dr. Alien LaPierre because it really is designed to address. Ways in which guarding formed during our childhood in order to protect our body and when what was needed is brought to the body in adulthood. The body remembers that and can start to release and yield into the safety that it wanted to as a child. With that, with the release of that past wound, then they can be with their adult intimate partner or with themselves and not get triggered into the past. It's so interesting. I'd love to see more research on this. Like they, they know that harmful touch or neglect. The absence of touch can have these epigenetic effects. We're actually changing our, not only our own nervous system expression throughout life, but those of our children. But, but I wonder if the opposite is true because it feels like it, it should be like these healing experiences of those like. Basic neuroendocrine responses feel like they, they change us at that core level, like core level, our functioning, right? Yeah. Yes. We know that, the effect of touch in the brain development of infants and what I've noticed within my clients I find that the more there is safety with receiving. Touch and particularly touch that is pleasurable and pleasurable. Whether that means reassuring, grounding, supportive pleasurable to touch. There seems to be something that happens in there. Within their nervous system where it feels safe to receive life force in other forms. So it's very common for me to see clients who were resistant to touch or felt like, okay, that's enough. When there's safety and there's an expansion of their vessel for receiving goodness, they start to get promotions at work. Their personal lives start to change. The quality of their intimate relationships start to expand because here they are now feeling safe to receive. Yes. Yes. And once you establish that basic safety, that yielding to receive support, that sense of being partnered in a relational web, like I see you then move into the. The more like the choice and voice you were saying the adolescent wounding that most of us experience. Yes. Something else I noticed with choice and voice like it cannot be under stated how transformational learning. It sounds simple to ask for what you want. I find that when the body. Has the evidence that it is gonna be advocated for both in its consent and its boundaries and its desires. The deaming happens much more easily. Because the body has this, it has this life experience. Yeah. And a kind of a. A positive feedback loop that starts to happen. The more it advocates for what it wants and it receives the kind and quality of touch that it truly desires, then it encourages it to advocate more, and then there's less and less reason for this unconscious guarding to stay in effect. So that trauma isn't just in the tissues, it's in our personal histories. And also we live in a traumatic culture. On one of your podcasts recently you were speaking about how the aggressions of patriarchy, of racism, of all the oppressions that are the water we swim in, they're impacting our blood flow, our neuroendocrine functioning. Prohibiting access to pleasure. So what I feel with you is that you generate a different way of being inside yourself and bring this counter normative cultural space into your work and into your how you teach people to like a way of being with one another and with themselves. And so I wondered if you could speak about that a little bit. Sure. Thank you for that reflection. Yeah, I really feel that. Nervous systems are really like tuning forks. And we've all experienced, if we go into an elevator and there's someone who's upregulated, we start to feel that anxiety. And the converse is true too. When we're with someone who's like kind of zenned out drinking, drinking some warm tea, we start to feel relaxed as well. 'cause our nervous systems really do attune to each other. And this can happen on a grand scale, but in the session space. I really feel like the intention of the facilitator or practitioner is picked up on. On some level by the nervous system of the client or receiver. And so whether it's two lovers exploring intimacy or a practitioner and a client the intention of the space holder is really critical. I feel like there are, support guides and angels all around us just waiting for us to call on them. And, before a client comes, I actually call upon the client's spirit guides and angel guides and ancestors for witnessing support. Because what we're intending to do really is reconnect a life force with its own energy. And that's gonna ripple through, the ancestral lineage through all of that. So I'm calling on all of these, support guides and yeah, I do feel like the more empty I am as a practitioner in service of attuning to how the life force wants to meet itself the less interference there is, within the session. Oh, I love that. The more empty you are as a practitioner, the more. You're getting out of the way of this life force wanting to reconnect with itself. Like I actually don't I always have a rough and I share this with the client, like a rough outline of how. What modalities can be applied during the session, but ultimately it's up to the client's body. And more than that, it's up to the client's body's life force. And it's my job to attune to that and obviously check in with the client to make sure that they're feeling a full yes to it, but it's really attuning to how Lifeforce wants to meet itself. Nice. Ooh, yes. Can you say anything about what brought you to that way of being, which I just it's so beautiful to be connected with you or in your presence. And yeah. What. A yummy experience. Your students are gonna have showing up for your Zoom calls and getting your support. Because that that safety and belonging are what people feel in your presence. And and this careful caring connection and tracking and noticing the people noticing each person with exquisite attention. That's, like your magic rahi, and I'm just like curious about yeah how did you learn that? And then how do you support your students in getting that? Oh, thank you for that, for those reflections. I'm a little embarrassed to hear all of those and that praise. I have to really go back to, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, Kain, but I had an experience in the north of Thailand. I was staying at a Buddhist monastery for a 21 day Vipasana retreat, and it was somewhere around day 13 or 14 when I just so much. Pent up emotion had been processed and metabolized. I went through all of this kind of dramatic inner turmoil. Do I stay, do I leave? And by the 10th day, I had dropped into kind of this zone of meditating, 12 to 13 hours a day, an hour sitting an hour walking an hour sitting an hour walking. And it was in the midst of this walking meditation. I remember the shrine, I remember the cold floor tile. 'cause it was very humid outside in the summer. And in the midst of it, something happened. And it's really hard to put into words, but, the eye that I identified myself with had evaporated and I was just this awareness in the field and I was, the awareness in the field was able to see this body that, was rawhi engaging in this walking meditation, but the awareness was in the walls. It was in the ceiling. It was just everywhere. Something about that experience has guided me, I think, ever since. And whether I'm on the dance floor with ecstatic dance it's really wanting to drop that identity and be the awareness. And so that's how. That's what I love about sessions. If I can drop that and, I can drop that whilst trusting that my training and experience knows how to facilitate, if a trigger happens or if there's some kind of space holding in particular that needs to happen. But it, it really allows for kind of. The field to come in and facilitate the session, like aligning with the great awareness that is in everything. Yeah. Yeah. I really aspire to do that too in my own ways. Yeah. It's very resonant with my own practice, which I come at from a diff bit of a different angle. More from like the physics of it. Quantum consciousness. Yeah. Where all is ever emergent. In the relational field death. And I think those of us who are drawn to or are practiced in, kind of these practices of that surrender the ego, whether it's, deep meditation or working with plant medicines like sex even erotic energy. At to a, at a certain, when there is a prolonged state of erotic energy, it can be like a psychedelic state where the ego disappears and there's just this primal life force that wants to meet itself. Yeah. And any orgasm, no matter how. It is in a sense that it's like surrendering this ego death. Yes. And you can cultivate expanded ecstatic states and like orgasmic states, you really, you can go there in such a gorgeous way. Also, like in trauma, we go there, we go to that surrendered state, and those traumatic experiences that are in our culture, so lonely and unaccompanied and terrible in us, they feel like a diminishment of an extinguishment of the self, which they are. If we can learn to hold them like. In a re-patterning process where like that ego death can actually be welcomed and celebrated, then it can make of our traumas like a pathway to something greater. So I think what you're speaking to is so important. I want to clarify. So yes, when a traumatic incident happens, it is like our ego is being subjugated. A death without our consent. Yes. And so what I'm hearing you share is that experience when it is mindfully and intentionally held, it can be. Almost reconditioned in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Where one is at choice of the environment and the circumstance that they are choosing to engage in, in order to re-experience that story, but from an empowered place of choice. Exactly like how we hold those traumas in our tissues in this armor, in this like Clint. And when we can get support loving help, how are we drawn to work with the genitals where so much trauma is is held and yet so much ecstasy is possible. That actual re-patterning of an integration in a in a new culture is what I what I've experienced with you in different ways, right? Like in the simple clothes on way of yielding to receive support and just an initial meeting with one another that you support oh, this is a different world where I, a yielding does not mean like a. A danger. It means like I receive support. In my surrender, I enter the field of all that is and loves me. It holds me. And then the re-patterning of having voice and choice. I did a program that you guided one day of going into our. Our teenage traumas and rewriting them so that the experiences that we'd had each person in the group got to rescript their traumatic teenage experience and experience something new that was about joy and being companioned in exploring sexuality. And then the actual genital touch, which like less people think that all this is about like soul and spirit and presence and safety and everything there. It are actually like genitals that get touched in all kinds of amazing ways. Yes. Yeah. What you're speaking to is really what I love about. This work. I it is holy work. It's divine work where we can take something, it's almost like the lotus flower growing out of the darkness because we're taking a story that the body has experienced this pain and traumatic and disempowering, and we're. Consciously bringing elements of choice and voice, of understanding how to voice one's pleasure, desires, consent, boundaries, and really rewriting that script in the body so that what was once disempowering is now like a field of empowerment for the body. And that is just, it's life changing. Yeah. And this is where, in regards to the genitals and working with the genitals in our field, genital mapping is such a cornerstone. And I feel like this is why it is so important because once the body learns how to advocate for itself, you know the difference between, I want my vulva touched. And being so specific to be able to attune to and say, I, I want the upper left quadrant of my clitoral glands to be stroked, about one second per stroke. It's so night and day different, and that really brings so much more specificity and sensation and intimacy to the relationship between one. One and one's genitalia by, going through a very exquisite mapping process. Yeah. Not of the, not only of the genitals, but of the whole body. Can you describe about how you engage with person in that mapping process? Sure. Yeah, we always start from the outside in. The first kind of terrain to get familiar with is to understand how the nervous system, what the nervous system needs to feel safe. So that is a fully clothed process. And whilst they are clothed again, we start from the outside in first, we're using props like pillows and blankets, and then we'll bring in. Touch, but the person remains clothed. And then only if the client feels ready to move further, then they can disrobe to the degree they feel comfortable and start receiving touch. And this is where the mapping process starts. The touch is different kinds and quality. It could be a feathery stroke, it could be, more of a glide sensual stroke. It could be a firm present stillness, but each different body part can learn what its preferences are and what makes it feel good. And during this process, we focus on the 11 erogenous zones of the body. Elicit a particular responsiveness. It's not always all 11 on all bodies, but usually people learn something new about the back of their knees or their ears or the back of their neck or their lower belly. Because it's very intentional. And this is the other thing I love about our field, is there's such a. A priority on one way touch, which I just think is magic. And I've had couples, I think we've all had coup a couple clients who were married for decades and they've never explored one way touch. And it is such a teacher, it is such a liberator an education just like this whole. Research data you get to collect about your lover's body and what they prefer. So then we do the 11 erogenous zones, and again, we work from the outside in the eros of the hands and the feet, the ears, the back of the neck are furthest away. And then we eventually move closer and closer to the more vulnerable parts of the body. And we do all that before we do any pelvic touch. Because there needs to be that evidence that the body has, that it can trust, this touch, this dynamic, and its own voice in advocating for what it wants. And then when we get to the pelvis, then the mapping can get very specific. And again, we go from the outside in. The upper thighs, the crease, the outer labia, and we're always looking for the full bodies. Yes. Before we move further, either to the cl clitoris or to the internal vaginal canal where there are just so many distinct erogenous areas that deserve specific attention and attunement. Yes. Could you like describe one or two of say when we were working with my genitals, you got around the cervix with some special touch that was like quite incredible because, I don't. Yeah, like there it was like nerves that had never been touched, and then you were rewiring them, like with some external touch, which was more used to being pleasured and yeah. So just these exquisite actual techniques that are so like amazing to explore and useful to learn. Yeah, most cervixes are armored for a variety of reasons. There could be, medical procedures like colonoscopies or I just, I recently consulted with a client who had a leap procedure in her twenties and she has excruciating pain after orgasms. So there could be medical reasons, but for most of us. During our teen years, we don't really learn about consent and boundaries and I find that most of my female clients, most of the clients who are all the owners, are penetrated before their bodies are really sufficiently warmed up and engorged. And as we know when a body is sufficiently aroused, the uterus lifts and actually moves the cervix out of the way of something incoming. But for most of my clients in their teens and twenties, that doesn't happen. So the cervix gets banged up against, and so that can, really armor the cervix and honestly, Kain the way I've learned to drm the cervix and what you experienced was a lot of it was like the intention of the touch, to touch from a real heartfelt intention so that the cervix. In Chinese medicine, the cervix is correlated with the heart organ. So it really responds to love, whether that's the, practitioner's love soul to a client or in an intimate situation. But just to touch with love and. I first explore areas around the cervix that are responsive and if there's any kind of responsiveness, and it could even be pain or discomfort that's better than numbness or that's like a starting point. And oftentimes the one o'clock and 11 o'clock. The upper right and upper left quadrants tend to be more sensitive than the other areas. I can focus there to just expand that friendly, safe touch and allow that to spread. And it's almost it's almost like a scared animal. It's once it, it's gonna be guarded and hypervigilant if all it's experienced before was unwanted, like contact. So once you know it needs to build, there needs, there's a lot of trust building that happens. And one of the. Methods that you mentioned is if there is a part of the body, like the clitoris for example, that is used to eliciting pleasure, you can concurrently stroke the armored area in this case the cervix with the clitoris and something happens with the brain where it's experiencing pleasure in an air and touch. And we're very Pavlovian in that way where we can get rewired and that can be done not only with the cervix, but really any two areas of the genitals or even the body. Like sometimes, clients may not have a lot of nipple or breast sensation, but if you start pairing it with clitoral strokes or something of that sort, then things can shift. Yeah. And in an environment of. Of loving of love and loving touch. That's so key to neuroplasticity to have that bath of oxytocin. Yes. It's yeah. It's so interesting, eh, like how the, yeah. Rewiring can happen, but having that chosen like choiceful rewiring of like how we want to grow our nervous systems. It requires that loving environment, that like heartfelt presence and empowerment like a feeling of I'm at choice. I get to change my mind at any time. Yes. But actually as a neuroendocrine state that we've, that we cultivate, so that we have neuroplasticity. Yeah, we're really, our bodies are very susceptible to suggestion. I've been hearing about these studies where, we all know about Pavlov's experiment with the dog and the bell and the salivation, but they've done these studies with humans where. It was at Johns Hopkins or Harvard or one of these universities where they inject like something into the arm of humans that spikes a chemical in the body. And they did this for a week, and then the second week they switched it out. They switched it out with just saline solution. The body's chemistry still responded, in the same way. So this is some indication of, if it can change the chemistry, if suggestion can change the chemistry, within the body, then certainly, yeah. We're very susceptible when it comes to rewiring for pleasure as well. Yeah. And when we have these big, expansive experiences like, like working with a professional. We also are gathering tools that where we have choice to like, keep that expansion going in our lives, especially with these techniques that you're teaching and offering in your online program. I was wondering if you had some stories about working with clients. I always, i'm curious to hear a story about you working with a man, because I think like men working with men are like really is a place where so much cultural and personal transformation can happen. Yeah. Let's see. Which, which story to share. There've been, just a few things I wanna share at the outset. Like I've had clients who, for example, I had a 69-year-old gentleman come to me because he learned he had prostate cancer and he had never explored the pleasures of his prostate. Like at like at any age, the wonders of the body are waiting. They're like goldmines to be discovered, they're like treasures. And when he experienced his first prostate induced orgasm, as we know, analogous to, what I've been told is the experience of a cervical orgasm because the vagus nerve, innervates both the cervix and the prostate. Like it was a spiritual experience for him. It just opened up so much for him. So I, I mentioned that. Not as a case study, but as an encouragement for penis owners out there to lean into exploring anal pleasure and specifically prostate health and prostate massage and prostate pleasure. If it's of any interest to you, because there's so much to explore and be discovered there. Yeah, I've had some clients recently, who were men, gay men. Two in particular. I'm lumping them in this. Because they shared the same thing of, growing up in the Midwest where they knew they were gay, but they had to really closet it and stay hidden until they moved to either New York or la and then it becomes such a. Ecstatic yet not always safe exploration of this energy that's been pent up and repressed for a long time. And so oftentimes the freedom, the sudden freedom to explore in, in clubs or in communities becomes a thing of. Experiencing penetration or being penetrated when there's not necessarily a lot of presence and consciousness around it. And from that can come armor. Certainly from the pressure to perform or from the desire to prove one's virility by just enduring. And yeah, there can be. Numbness that forms around the anal sphincter or around the shaft of the penis. And this is where disarming the basics of what we've been speaking about, making sure the nervous system feels safe to receive. Empowering the body's choice and voice mapping so that there is an ability to attune to, and then give voice to the specific areas of the sphincter, the different quadrants, the internal, external, or the different areas of the shaft. And then really engaging in. The kind of fundamentals of deep breathing, presence, allowing emotions to flow and rewiring, armored areas with pleasurable areas. Beautiful. Yeah, I feel like, oh, this culture is so like really cells, men, short when it comes to eroticism. So few men get a chance to. Explore soft penis pleasures and explore, so often the first touch they receive is like actually cutting off the foreskin when they're an infant. And then they show up for eroticism, like thinking they have to have a hard penis and like rough, high friction strokes and just oh my gosh, there's so much to explore, so much joy and juiciness in the erotic responses that can be opened up with mindful. Touch of all the genitals. Yeah, I so agree. I think like in a thousand years, people are gonna look back at this kind of era where there's no sex education. We're all sexual beings. We all have the same issues. No one talks about it. It's just gonna be looked at as this really bizarre yeah, what are these? What are they doing? Yeah, what? That sure didn't work. Yeah. Oh my gosh. We have this natural organic pharmacology of chemicals and feelings and sensations to heal, in our own body. And, like I really. I know that good sex is medicine, heightened erotic states can transform consciousness. Oh, these are things that are in our bodies and just so much joy to have and to share and. Here's a quote from a client from your website. I have experienced a fundamental resurrection. My whole pelvic floor has come alive more than it ever was before, even before the six surgeries. Frozen traumatic energy has been liberated and transmuted, fueling enormous amounts of motivation, confidence, stamina, and creativity. The transformation ha have been rapid and the change sustained. That's the kind of experiences that Yes. Like clients are having and I'm so happy that you're teaching Rahi and talk about finding ways to, to be of service to Yeah. Instead of trying to fit everybody into your practice, you're all your students then can take this into their lives, into their communities, their professional lives. They're intimate relationships and really like help to release this like enormous amounts of motivation, confidence, stamina, and creativity that we experience when we can, shed the thousand pounds of armor that most of us are carrying around. And the genital deaming. You have a special for couples too, which I imagine it'd be lovely to take the genital deaming as a couple. And practice on one another? Yes, that's, that's always been a dream of mine because so many of my clients have said, oh, if my partner could learn this, a lot of people just like learning in the privacy of their own bedroom. And so there's a special rate for couples for the genital disarming course where they can just move at their own pace and their own time in the privacy of their own home. Yeah, that'd be so lovely. And a new relationship too. I've just got a new, wonderful relationship I'm exploring and just oh, what would just be such create. Atic playground and also sharing, like details of our traumas and how that gets held in the body even at almost 70. Yeah. Like a wonderful way to get, let's get to know each other. Yeah. Yeah, that is, that, that's actually an integral part of the course for couples is we do invite each person to take inventory of the influences that have affected their sexual embodiment so that they have a sense of, what makes them feel safe? What makes them wanna go into fight flight or fawn? And then choose to share that with their partners because so often the partners think it's about them and take it personally. When someone goes into freeze or says no. And just understanding each other's histories can bring so much more empathy and compassion and, not take things personally because it's usually not about them. Beautiful. Yeah. That's so inviting. Now you also have some in-person offerings. Rahi that sound really exciting. Our our in-person couples retreat for February is actually sold out now. Woo. Yeah, so that's sold out. But Ariel and I will be driving across country from Boston to LA sometime later this spring. And we haven't identified exactly what route we're gonna take, but we do wanna offer opportunities to teach and train and sessions along the way. So it looks like Austin and Sedona are musts. We're looking at Atlanta and possibly Virginia Beach. As other possibilities. So if you're somewhere along the way and there's an interest in us teaching your community or your friends groups or receiving a couple session from us, then feel free to inquire. How beautiful. Yeah. So is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you'd like to share with folks? We've touched on so many things. I just wanna share what a delight it is to converse and connect and commune with you. And I think our listeners know what a tremendously brilliant and bright light you are. And thank you so much for holding space for this exploration today. All right. It's really been my pleasure and my honor to just, I'm like maybe your biggest fan. We just love you and love your work in the world. I love you too. C, how is today's episode landing in your body right now? How is your intimate connection, communion, and communication with your own genitalia? Is there a clarity in listening and attuning for what their needs, desires, and expressions are? And if not, what are ways you can lean into inviting such clarity and attunement for yourself and for your body? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. ​ [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pleasure Expansion & Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Becoming a Somatic Sex Educator (Dr. Liam Snowden)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/becoming-somatic-sex-educator/) **Published:** May 20, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** What's it like to grow up in a culture where your sexuality and sexual identify is absent or marginalized from society’s normative boxes and culture? Dr. Liam “Captain” Snowdon shares their journey of exploring sexuality through various non-normative tribes during a time when trans and gender-queer consciousness was not as evolved as it is today,. Captain also shares their unique perspective about Somatic Sex Education, having served as faculty on many of the leading Somatic Sex Education trainings over the years, and having co-created The Institute for Somatic Sex Education. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Becoming a Somatic Sex Educator (Dr. Liam Snowden) # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the path of becoming a somatic sex educator and what it takes to guide others into embodied sexual healing. You’ll learn how this work bridges trauma healing, intimacy, and education. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") [CaptainSnowdon.ca](http://www.captainsnowdon.ca/) [TheInstituteforSomaticSexEducatio](https://somaticsexeducator.com/) *Today’s Guest:* dr. liam ‘captain’ snowdon lives uninvited on the territory of the Lekwungen and WSÁNEĆ peoples on Vancouver Island. Their background is in social justice, street outreach, counseling, harm reduction, somatic sex education and poetry with youth and adults. Some current incarnations of captain’s work, are developing “Queer Dying” end of life care and planning for queer folks, co-teaching and co-creating Somatic Sex Education trainings in Canada, and bringing somatic work wherever they go. They run the Sex Positive Art and Recreation Center. They are in love with the ocean and their PALs (partners in anarchist love) and spend a lot of time with their 89 year old father. ## What You’ll Learn About Becoming a Somatic Sex Educator $ How Dr. Snowdon’s enhanced engagement with sensory perception due to “learning disabilities” as a child invited a development in somatic awareness, which combined with their exploration of sensorial intimacy within queer communities, prepared them brilliantly as a trainer and teacher of somatic sexual arts. $ How Dr. Snowdon’s resonance with the feminist lesbian/dyke community aligned and informed their early socio-political and cultural understanding and activism during a time when queer and trans-awareness was not as prevalent as today. $ How when “Queer,” “Kinky,” “Leather,” “Trans,” and “Gender-Queer” are boxes that fit to some degree, but not completely, a deep experiential exploration of embodied sexuality can lead to discovering one’s own embodied reality and truth. $ How the absence of conversation regarding the role oppression plays within our collective experience of sexuality is in itself oppressive – by ignoring the ways race, gender, sexual orientation/identity, systemic power & privilege and sexual & gender-based violence plays out via the sexual dynamics of our society. $ How every body’s sense of safety or oppression affects and is affected by another body’s, and how all of our bodies also affect and are affected by our collective nervous system affecting how we relate and engage with each other sexually. $ How the Institute for Somatic Sex Education co-created by Dr. Snowdon, Caffyn Jesse and Corinne Diachuk seeks to attune to the individual pace and sense of safety of its student practitioners whilst facilitating somatic awareness and facility of embodied pleasure, voicing consent & boundaries, and the wisdom and benefits of hands-on Somatic Sex education. $ How powerful and pleasurable it is to witness a student or client somatically reclaim their body’s authority and ability to voice their honest and unequivocal “no,” in addition to their full-bodied and authentic “yes.” $ How having a beginner’s mind for learning, a natural interest for discussing & exploring sexuality, along with an understanding that we are our own authority regarding our body – are amongst the most supportive qualities for becoming a Somatic Sex educator – and how these can be cultivated during one’s training. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How Joseph Kramer’s lucid erotic dreams lead to the field of sexological bodywork](https://rahichun.com/podcast/joseph-kramer-sexological-bodywork/) [How Tantra & yoni massage can play pivotal roles in sexual healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [How erotic sovereignty can lead to embodied power](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Exploring the keys to genital de-armoring](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today it gives me great pleasure to invite Dr. Liam Snowden, or Captain as I am used to calling them who was the director of my somatic sex education training years ago. How does one explore and discover their sexual truth when their embodied experiences are outside of society's narrowly defined norms? Dr. Snowden generously shares their journey, in addition to sharing insights into the various somatic sex education trainings they've been a part of over the years, including the one they've co-founded. The Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education. So I'm really honored and thrilled to have Dr. Liam Snowden to the podcast today. I know him as captain. He was the director of my sexological bodywork training at the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality, which was pivotal in my journey of becoming a somatic sex educator. Dr. Snowden for over 10 years has been co-teaching within one or both of two of the main somatic sex education trainings in North America currently at the Institute for Somatic Sex Education. And then the one in North America, the one that I did was the sexological Body Worker training as well as being faculty on the Institute for Sexual Education and Enlightenment. Captain, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to see you. It's my pleasure to be here, Rahi. It's great. I just wanna let you know that I think that when we met I was trying on the pronoun he for a while, and I'm back to using they and loving Ah, okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah, thanks for letting me know. Because you've been, because your life is really so involved in depth and breadth, and you've seen the evolution of somatic sex education in a variety of different programs and perspectives. I would love to know what the influences and experiences were in your journey that guided you towards becoming a somatic sex educator and trainer. Oh, super sexy question. Thank you. I guess as a way of just centering in the land and recognizing the territories that I'm on, which is an important piece for me, I just also want to say that I'm coming to you from Lagan territory territory of the song he and peoples indigenous folks here AKA Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. Colonial names. The colonial names. Yeah. The journey around all of this, I think, I didn't figure that, I didn't figure this out till later, but definitely the pieces around being a kid growing up with a ton of learning disabilities and having the ways that I learned in the world not being valued, that was that was at a time where there wasn't a lot of understanding or knowing about learning disabilities. And I had this little spark in myself of knowing that I was smart, but not in the ways that were valued in the system at the time. And so I would just go around and engage with the world, through my body and through my senses, and not as much through my head and in a really communal way. Like I always cared about what was going on with people and. How people were relating to each other and what happened when groups of people got together. And so I think that, that manifested in jobs like working on the streets in harm reduction and working in queer health. And then I was at a point in my life where I was coming out as transgender. I had come out as queer earlier on and been privileged to be exposed to all the things that won. It was exposed to in the nineties when, sex and queerness were so connected, even though I got exposed to kink community and polyamory and all the ways that queer folks had figured out how to be in relationship with each other outside of normative practices of relationship. And so I was like, what do I wanna do now? And it was like spirituality, sexuality. And so I explored. That I'm a witch and I practice in the reclaiming tradition of witchcraft, but I was like, the sex was calling me more, so I did some exploration around what could. What could I do that would keep my attention for a whole bunch more years? And I found the institute in San Francisco that's no longer there, that we both went to. And yes, somehow they accepted me to go to school. So I went down to sex school in San Francisco and learned a lot more about myself. And at the end of doing my doctorate down there, people had been telling me all the way along that there's this course that I would really called Sexological Body Work. And it was a separate thing, so you had to do it separately. And so I gave it to myself as the present for being done my doctorate, and then the lights went off. Boom. Body and Sach, not just heads and ect. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you know what's really fascinating from what I'm hearing, captain, is the learning disabilities, it sounds like it was a blessing in that it gave you access to your sex, to your sensual and sensorial intuition and wisdom, rather than what happens a lot, I think in our current educational structure where we get cut off from our bodies because there's so much focus in the in, in the mind. Absolutely. Yeah. And then here you were very like Sensorially, intuitive. Intuitive to your sense, feeling sense. And then moving into queer communities in the nineties, it sounds like, where you, where the culture was very much about exploring that sensorial intelligence and pleasure. And so it it set you up perfectly to be a. A trainer and educator in somatic sex education because you were already so attuned to your body senses. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great way of looking at it. And what I hear in that is a thing that I reflect on sometimes is like the wounds, the wounds being the gift some of the time. Not always, but yeah. And I just had, a tremendous amount of community support around. Being who I am, because once you question one pillar, like sexual orientation and then the other pillars of like, how am I gonna do relationship? And then the other pillars of like, how am I gonna be in my body around gender? The Greek, Roman coliseum just falls down. Because all the structures that we're holding it up and then we get to make up, we get to make up our lives. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that because I think we came of age around the same time. Like I, my high school class was 85 and the AIDS scare was coming out like people were afraid, around sexuality then. Yeah. But like back then, were there support systems for you to explore your identity? Or 'cause if I'm, if I think back to my high school, twenties, there was definitely gay and lesbian resources. I think the resources and awareness or education or support around queer identity was even lacking then much less trans. Yeah. I wasn't exposed to anything until my twenties. And I, and I wasn't living in a particularly conservative place or with particularly conservative parents, but it just, it wasn't available. Nor did I have the language, which I think is the other thing to describe myself. And so how did given the lack of kind of support systems and the awareness and the culture that was not there at the time, how did you like your own. Exploration and understanding of your own identity, how did that evolve? Because it sounds like you explored your queer identity and that evolved into un understanding and accepting your trans nature. Yeah. The first gaggle of people that I found that some of me fit with was fabulous, amazingly political and diverse. Feminists, some of who were lesbians and dikes. And so I, I got an education that I will be lifelong grateful in around feminism, patriarchy, and power and oppression and privilege, and of course, that I'm. Always learning tons more about, but yeah, that foundation really I found a way of welcoming being, I found community there, but the, and the problem with that was that my politics felt fit really nicely there. And I was finding like liberation for lots of pieces of myself, but I wasn't particularly interested in having sex with women. Parts of me fit. And then you've always been communal, you, so the politics fit there with that community. You've, and then how did your, it's a very personal question but how did your, how did your sexual needs get met? And through, through doing so, how did your sexual identity evolve and blossom? That's a sweet question. Lots of trial and error, and lots of gracious lovers. Once I got more comfortable with my own body. And pleasure, pleasure with myself. Things got a lot more possible with other people. I think that there was a lot of things were happening at the same time. I was scoring a lot more kinky related things. I was. Traveling around more in radical ferry community. So back to the land queer men's and other beings movement and finding more communal spaces to be in around sexuality. And then just living more as on the gender spectrum in a place that felt more comfortable for me and being seen in the world a little bit more in the way that I wanted to be seen. So it sounds like when you say getting more comfortable in your own body and your own, like exploring, and it's such a like foundational practice for our somatic sex education is the orgasmic yoga to really be. To take ownership really of the, of our own pleasure and get so familiar with the erotic terrain of our own bodies. And it sounds like that combined with being in community with other like folks that, that were not identified with kind of the boxes that were being presented by society. The I think our sexuality is really infinite and undefined, but you found your tribe in that it sounds like. Yeah, and I think that I've been in and out of lots of different gaggles of people and having, lived up and down the west coast of these two countries. There's a lot, there's a lot of different communities that I've been a part of and, but definitely like queer, the words queer, the words kinky, the words trans, the word gender queer, which is my favorite. The word leather, like those are all. Boxes that fit to some degree, and also help me find my people in a community, whether it's online or in person. Very cool. So I wanna ask you, captain, because I know you're also an anti-violence worker. I wanted to ask you about the role oppression plays in sexual embodiment and expression. And I feel like the, I feel like it's not, I don't think it's really discussed very much in sexuality or sec sacred sexuality circles. It's I think people like, once it's the topic is broached or introduced, people can see how it, the pivotal role oppression plays in our sexual expression. But I'd love to hear from you because Yeah what role does oppression play in our sexual embodiment and expression and does its very omission from the conversation affect our collective sexuality. Yes. I love this question. And of course I'm learning tons about this stuff all the time and making mistakes and trying to get up again and try again, but I. Yeah. I think what's really important, especially in spiritual communities, there seems like there's a lot of, still a lot of sort of spiritual bypass of these of the questions of oppression and power and privilege. And sexual violence and gender based violence. Where it's, there's still this oh, we're all just one. Let's not get mixed up in that kind of stuff 'cause we're all just one and really, no. Yeah. Yeah. And I think and really. Like my liberation is tied up with your liberation is tied up with black Lives Matter. Liberation is tied up with the embodiment of each of us being able to be ourselves, but in a culture that's also impacted, like deeply impacted by all of the systems that have been so oppressive to so many of us. And I think that. It has a huge impact on us, as in as individuals, which I think is what's being talked about a lot more lately, which is fantastic. But also it impacts us being able to connect with each other across difference, right? If we've got all these ways that maybe we've been taught overtly or not overtly to engage with each other, who are different or in this box or that box. Our bodies act differently around each other's bodies. And and not necessarily consciously. So working to unpack the, I'm interested in working and playing to unpack how our bodies engage with each other body each other's bodies as a way to. Unlearn and learn ways of being in love with each other in a better way. And, there's lots of, tons of great work being done Rema medic and whole bunch of other folks around cul the cultural nerve, the cultural nervous system, and what oppression and privilege and power and white supremacy has done to the cultural nervous system. And if we can look at that. In a broader way too. There's lots of, there's lots of door doors into change there and it's, that's really damn exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I'm hearing is that, like in the way that our nervous systems. Are like tuning forks. If there's stuckness in one, there's gonna be, it's gonna resonate throughout all the tuning forks, and yet it, it feels the whole nature of pleasure and sensuality. Requires a safe and present nervous system. And if there's any obstruction to that and influences lip oppression is going to hamper and impede that not only for one person, but for the whole species. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm not sure if I, as a white person, I'm the right person to talk to talk about this stuff at the moment, but I there's a fabulous person named Onika Henry who is from Trinidad and Tobacco, and I love to listen to her about this stuff. And. There's a piece on YouTube that she's done that's about reclaiming sexual identity through Carnival. She's from Trinidad and tobacco and there's a lot of in there about reclaiming and fully embodying the tools that come with all of our sort of ancestral wisdom in when we can get ourselves in. Situations of collective embodiment and collective joy, which I think all of our cultures had some at some time. Whether it was more recently or way long ago. So I'm just, I'm super excited in hearing, hearing from people who are talking about collective joy and collective liberation through the body these days. It's one of the reasons why, you know, when you talked, you asked me about, you mentioned the different programs. I think that you, and we're around the same age, so it's there, there's, there was a period that seems to me, at least on the west coast of our countries, these countries here, where like the way into sexuality and sexual healing was catharsis. Like you had to go big, have the huge orgasm, have the big multiple person experience, like override or just. Super activate your nervous system, right? And that's, and then we went, oh yeah, maybe that works for a few people. Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody. And who's being harmed in this process? So I think like the found the pieces when I first studied Sexological body work, it it was in that time. And so it came and early on when I was teaching it, I think I came a lot more from that, that, let's just get to the sex thing. We know it's full of shame and stuff, but let's like ignore the shammy stuff a little bit and just try it. And so I think like now what we've, collectively learned and what we wanted to create in our, in, in our school is like a trauma, trauma informed practice, anti-oppressive practice. Creating these safety rails into all these fabulous modalities, which are under somatic sex education of like masturbation coaching. General mapping and pleasure mapping. Orgasmic yoga, which we now talk about as mindful erotic practice because it neither needs to be orgasmic or yoga. So like these practices are great, but not everybody can just jump right into them. So we wanted a lot more pre. With people, which I'm sure you've discovered in your private practice, it's no, people don't want to, can't all just get right on the table, nor do we want them to. Yeah, that's really that's great that the school in Canada, the Institute for Somatic Sex Education. It sounds like it really reflected the discoveries and awarenesses about the nervous system and about it's very trauma informed and comes from a, not only trauma informed, but also it's non-binary. It's more inclusive, more neuro physiology based. And I was gonna ask you like the differences between the schools that you're, that you've been a part of. So it sounds like the school that you have co-created with your co-founders have taken in the evolution of somatic sex education in understanding the role a downregulated nervous system plays in pleasure and sexual freedom. Yeah. I think we've really kept some of the. Things that we really love about sexological body work, which is, and some of the curriculum, which is like the hands-on pieces, the focus on pleasure, the noticing about what, learning about what our core erotic themes are and therefore what, charges up our sexuality and making, being able to make choice and have voice around that. But yeah, the the consent pieces, lots more consent pieces, big shout out to Betty Martin around bringing those pieces into work around sexuality and yeah, really wanting to slow to walk our talk about slowing down too. Also, you remember the program. Go. And now you're done. But now, yeah, there's like discreet courses you can take breaks between, it's not a cohort model. It's oh, life happened, so I'll take, I won't take this course for another six months or yeah. And then just really developing. The other thing that's really important to us is developing a community of practice and as one of those things that really keeps us in ethical practice and having people that know what our. Hot buttons are so that when we approach them with clients or groups that we have people we can be accountable to. So Corrine D Chuck and C, and Jesse and I, yeah. We just sat down and created what we wanted to create and looked at things and said, do you like this part? Do you want to do this part? Oh, nobody wants to, it's not joyful or pleasurable. Let's not do it. Nice. So we came at it through our own pleasure. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. When I looked at, I, when I looked through the curriculum, it seems like it would, it's all the best stuff from our training, and yet there's a respect for the pace that, that the nervous system needs to be able to integrate and digest and feel safe, really. And moving through all of these processes. Yeah. And then you're also faculty on the at the Institute for the Sexual Education and Enlightenment. Yeah. And how does how is that different than the Canadian program? RA Devo and I went to the institute in San Francisco together for our doctorates. And we both came out of there being like, Ooh. We could create schools or we wanna teach things. We came from really similar backgrounds around working with people around drug and alcohol and harm reduction and counseling and joy and spirituality. And yeah, so Roz was the first one to go. I'm starting a school and so I just came along with, was delighted to come along with her on that journey and teach with her. A wide variety of things. I send a lot of, I send students who her school is so holistic. There's a lot of so like body work components. And I send people who don't have, sex education or a sex background there to learn more about sex. Ah, okay. And being a sex educator and or just, and just like information. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Whereas the institute of somatic sex education is really more geared towards professionals. Would, is that what you would, is that how you'd distinguish the two? No, because I think that Roz has a therapist route you can go and a sex educator route you can take in her program. I think we're both really invested in people looking at their own stuff too. So I think, if in, in our program, the first two courses are. Are about looking at our own relationship to power and privilege and trauma and pleasure and centering, our own pleasure in the whole process of it all. Often we're like, people are like what about blah, blah, blah, blah? And we're like, wait for the next course. This part's about you. Yeah. So I think we have really similar philosophies and r'S training. Most people that Roz trains don't do hands-on stuff. And when and she sends people our way if they wanna do hands-on stuff. Oh, okay. So that's a huge distinction then the hands-on and the non hands-on. Got it. Captain, I wanna ask you what you've enjoyed the most about teaching in each program. And I'm sure every year it's different 'cause the cohorts are different and the flavor of each class is different, but like what brings you the most pleasure and joy? Because you've taught so many different you've been a part of so many different trainings. I would say like the answer to that question is like you, the students, things that I get so much delight in are. Talking to people like so many of the students are those people that have always been the people that their friends come to talk to about sex? I don't know how many times I've heard that. I don't, I'm not a therapist or anything, but I am like, I've been talking about sex my whole life. 'cause people have been coming to me to talk about it. I enjoy. People that have been called to more traditional forms of sex work coming into this practice and learning tons from them, I, I learned so much from the students we have. 'cause people are just coming from all kinds of different places. I love the, some of my favorite moments are. When people really understand in their body that they don't have to do something. Like we have this thing in our program about don't g we'll invite people to do things and then it'd be like, don't g And then when that moment, when people actually trust that there'll be no impact or punishment of not doing a thing. And the the shift that happens in people's body when they can use their No. And it's respected and seen. I just love that moment over. I see you nodding like over and over again. That moment is so great. And then just finding there's enough people in the field now and I want to talk to you about this, about a current student. Maybe after the call ums more people in the field now to be like hooking people up and saying, this person's been doing this for a while. You have similar way that you wanna do the work. Less like connecting and networking people is one of my favorite things too. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause you've actually seen the community evolve and grow in the years that you've been teaching. So now it must be really exciting to see, like a whole network of kind of subsets of specialties and different partnerships forming, taking the work in all kinds of directions. But you know what you said earlier, captain about. Like seeing the don't gotta register and then the body experiencing the effect of its No, it's so huge. It's, it's like the body wakes up to new software in the system. It is just over and over again. It just blows my mind and really it is for so many people, it's just never been safe to say no. And so being able to. Help, like of course it being different in each class, but help create containers that are safe enough for people to try on their no. And their yeses, yeah. That those moments just blow my mind and just, yeah. It's such a, also such a young profession that, of course there's been people in all different cultures doing sacred sexual healing and more traditional forms of sex work and all kinds of things. But in this particular incarnation, it's so young that we're all making it up together, which is another piece that I just love about it. Yeah, it's exciting. It's really exciting. And to see the impact of it, it must be thrilling for you to see, it's like birds fly outta the nest and then they become eagles and, and create their own kind of flavor and expression of what's possible sexually. Oh, yeah. And I guess other thing why I just keep being involved over, and over again is, and I feel like I like to. Check in with myself about that, that being a choice, is it still joyful for me? And the answer keeps being yes. And the, my, my love of the communal, it's a way of me keeping in the practice of checking in around myself, around pleasure or how has shame creeped back in, from culture to me and, and I get to facilitate this. For the last three years I've been doing mindful erotic practice called convi to two mornings a week. Gaggles of students and past students. And we come and. It's any other practice. We show up online at seven o'clock in the morning. And I do a little grounding thing, get us into our pelvises, and then we share with each other what our intention for our communal erotic practice might be that day. And then we, I have a playlist that goes on for 40 minutes and we turn our cameras off and our sound off and we go off and do our practices and then come back and talk about how it went and then get on with our days. So I get to be engaged, in those ways of like everyday practice of eroticism and. And also just be in the, everything that Eros is. As you well know, it all just gets squished down into sex. And it's just like being able to open it up and dance with everything that's possible with Erotics to just create and bring all the fire to the different things we're doing in our lives. Yeah. 'cause it is fire. It's that life force. It is. It is, I think amongst the most powerful, if not the most powerful, creative, intuitive pleasure force that, that we are so privileged to embody. I feel like, I feel like what you're doing now in holding that safe space. Whether it's for Convi or for the different trainings is allowing for and inviting the sexual life force to express itself in all of the ways that it's designed to, that it organically wants to, which seemed to be the thing that was missing when you were, when you were coming of age, because there were just these few boxes. Cool. Yeah. Which is so cool. Which is so cool because, it's like you're creating what it is that was missing when you were coming into your sexual being, which is poetic and profound, which is really beautiful. Captain, I wanna ask because you've been involved in so many trainings what are some of the quality? For listeners out there who are interested and curious about the Institute for Somatic Sex Education or the Institute for sexual Education and Enlightenment, really interested in the field. What are some of the qualities you feel like best suits people for the field, and what advice would you give them? If they're curious about pursuing it. Yeah, I think some of the qualities is like a comfort with talking about sex and sexuality in, in some of its breadth and depth. Of course, folks get, in both of the programs, folks get exposed to tons more stuff. I like a good humbleness, and an ability to go into beginner's mind. Because we've, there's, we've had so many experiences in life, but coming as adult learners coming back into to the beginning of something can be a bit challenging. So just that piece around willingness to not know things and comfort of not knowing things to, together with this essence of the belief that we're all our own authority with our own bodies and that we're all experts in our own bodies, and maybe we can use some guidance and some support and some tools. Yeah. Having, we recommend to folks having their own embodiment practice, whether it's contact improv or dance yoga kung fu, all the different ways of centering in our bodies. Are super helpful coming into this kind of practice. And then we recommend that people get some sessions, whether it's online or in person, have experience of the work from some a few different practitioners or attend groups or, yeah, just be being exposed, especially with the somatic sex education pieces, where there's the option to do hands-on work in this field. Being, being an erotic adventurer and being it's an edgy profession. And so having some comfort with being an edge walker and having some investment in counter normative practices and being outside of boxes will definitely make the, our particular school people will be more comfortable in our school without kind of Yeah. Foundations. Yeah. Yeah. As I'm hearing you share these qualities, I think for someone with all those qualities coming into your school, your training, they would thrive. Especially, I love when you said someone who can come in with a beginner's mind, because I feel like it's an invitation to relearn. What we've learned about sex, sexuality and sex education in a, because the mainstream it's there's so many pieces that are missing. It's like we need to relearn it through our body somatically. Yeah. How many of us learned about pleasure? We learned about sex. Not very many. Yeah. And all those things that I just listed are things that we we cultivate skill around too, so it's not like you have to have all those things coming in. It's like there's also modules about that and conversations and teachings and. Yeah. I'll have all, both, like all the the institute's website, the links on in the show notes. Before we close out, captain, I'm wondering if you have a favorite somatic practice or exercise that listeners may explore to Yeah. Something that would deepen their sense of a sexual embodiment. Yeah, I think about the foundation of a mindful erotic practice. Take an hour, take half an hour and make sure nobody's gonna disturb you. I know how hard that is for people who are parents or were in COVID or taking care of elders, kind finding some way to have some time that's just for you, and then bringing the things that you already know give you pleasure to the center of that hour. Like maybe stretching gives you pleasure and makes you in your body maybe eating chocolate, maybe certain music. So doing things that, that center pleasure. And then in that same time, maybe adding in some self touch. And just like following the impulses of the body and just seeing that there's no right way to do it other than that, the way that you're doing it. Yeah. I love that it's an invitation to move beyond what one is used to or one has become, and really follow the pleasure and explore what's possible. Yeah. I think that's a great piece of advice for all of us and all of what we're doing to move outside of the box. And I feel like you've been doing that your whole life on and off, and failing and flailing at all of it. Captain, thank you so much for being with us today. It's really great to have you on the show. My pleasure. How is today's podcast landing in your body? What sensations are you aware of feeling right now, or are there emotions present for you? To hold space for and allow yourself to feel if you want. How does captain's embodiment suggestion feel to you? Can you imagine engaging in your favorite embodiment practice, whether that be dancing to your favorite music, engaging in yoga, or taking a soothing warm bath. Then bringing pleasurable self touch to your body. Imagine for a moment how that might feel to your senses, to your skin, to your sexuality, and how might your body respond? Is there a time this week you might be able to explore this for yourself? Imagine the space you could create and the intimacy with yourself that could be explored, discovered, and achieved. Can you feel this possibility in your body right now? And if there's any part of your body that is inviting contact from you right now, then why wait? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Captain Liam Snowden, Queer, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing --- ### [Sexual Sovereignty & Rewilding the Body (with Dr. Saida Desilets)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-sovereignty-rewilding-the-body/) **Published:** January 29, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** In this richly embodied conversation, Rahi Chun sits down with Dr. Saida Desilets — pioneering teacher of sacred sexuality and creator of the Embodied Psychosexual Method — to explore sexual sovereignty, erotic innocence, and the body’s capacity to heal through pleasure, breath, and deep attunement. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### PODCAST EPISODE: # Sexual Sovereignty & Rewilding the Body (with Dr. Saida Desilets) ### *with Dr. Saida Desilets* # ### ### ## In This Episode We explore sexual sovereignty and what it means to reclaim ownership of your body and expression. You’ll learn how rewilding supports autonomy, pleasure, and freedom. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/pstr_TSR_about_2.jpg "pstr_TSR_about_2 | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) About Our Guest: Dr. Saida Desilets is an internationally recognized pioneer in sacred and embodied sexuality, holding a PhD in Human Sexuality and over two decades of global teaching experience. She is the founder of Sexual Sovereignty®, the creator of the Embodied Psychosexual Method, and the visionary behind Embodied Love University, where thousands have trained in pleasure-based healing and relational intimacy. Blending somatic science, Taoist and Egyptian energy practices, wilderness rewilding, and trauma-transcending embodiment work, Saida guides women and couples to reclaim erotic vitality, confidence, and deep connection with their life force. She is the author of *The Emergence of the Sensual Woman* and *Desire*, and her work has influenced a generation of sexuality educators, therapists, and practitioners worldwide. Her teachings challenge shame-based cultural narratives and invite people into a radically alive, sovereign, and pleasure-positive relationship with their bodies. ### Dr. Saida’s links: [Embodied Love University](https://www.embodiedloveuniversity.com/) [Dare Your Desire](https://dareyourdesire.com/) [“Desire” & “Emergence of the Sensual Woman” ](https://www.amazon.com/stores/Saida-Desilets/author/B00CHMLPEO?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true) ## What You’ll Learn About Sexual Sovereignty & Embodiment $ Saida shares how growing up without sexual shame gave her an early experience of erotic innocence — and how culture later tried to suppress it. $ She recounts being told she had two weeks to live at age twenty and how that moment sparked her lifelong commitment to vitality, pleasure, and choosing life. $ We explore the birth of “sexual sovereignty” and why reclaiming authority over your body is foundational to healing. $ Saida reframes arousal and pleasure as clinical markers of health rather than something taboo or inappropriate. $ The conversation reveals how relaxed arousal — not performance or intensity — is the true ground of deep, connected lovemaking. $ She explains how wilderness “rewilding” restores our pre-verbal sensual intelligence and makes us more attuned lovers and partners. $ We unpack how shame disconnects people from their life force — and how sensual awareness dissolves it naturally. $ Saida describes how leaning toward discomfort during intimacy, instead of avoiding it, can transform pain into trust and pleasure. $ We examine how breath, attention, and noticing small moments of “yum” can radically shift our relationship to everyday life and sexuality. $ Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to see pleasure not as luxury or indulgence, but as the body’s most direct expression of aliveness. ## ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today I'm honored to share a conversation with someone whose work I've admired for years, Dr. Saida Desilets. Saida is a pioneering voice in sacred and embodied sexuality with a PhD and decades of real world teaching. But what moves me most about her work is how it emerged, not from theory. But from her own fierce commitment to choosing life and pleasure after being given a death sentence at the age of 20. In this conversation, we explore the origins of sexual sovereignty, why arousal and pleasure deserve to be celebrated as markers of health and how rewilding in nature can teach us to become better lovers. ATU shares practices for reclaiming erotic innocence, navigating shame, and the beautiful art of leaning into difficulty during intimate moments rather than avoiding them. Whether you have three hours for practice or three breaths, this conversation offers pathways back to your own aliveness. Let's dive in. Okay, so today I'm super honored to be speaking with Dr. Saida Desilets. I've known of Saia's work for so many years, so I'll just share her bio, which is really an injustice to her live organism of work that's already, that's always vibrating. So Dr. Saida is a pioneering voice in the field of sacred and embodied sexuality. With a PhD in sexuality and many, many years of real world teaching around the world, Saida guides women and by extension couples to reclaim pleasure, sovereignty, and erotic wisdom as integral parts. Psychologically and spiritually fulfilling lives. She's the author of the Pioneering book, the Emergence of the Sensual Woman, and also the author of Desire, the creator of many immersive programs and trainings and pleasure, embodiment, sexual polarity, and. How to live a, a generative erotic life. She's a recognized leader whose work has been featured in major voices of women's health. Wherever you find her in online trainings, wilderness Rewilding retreats or her writing, she's committed to turning the cultural messaging of shame, disconnection, and the commodification of sexuality on its head, and inviting us into a radical reclaiming and rewilding of our bodies, our desires. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to dive into this. I got excited to meet myself too. When you read that, that's always a, that's always a good thing. Yeah. Has been really. Fascinating to follow, for those of you who've known you since you know, emergence and even before that, and so I thought a great jumping off point would be inviting. I would love to hear from you about the evolution of your sexual aliveness because it's taken. So many turns and so many kind of rebirthing and, you know, yes. Kind of deepening layers. And I, I'd also love to know like how your own path of reclaiming your sexuality and body informs the core frameworks you teach. Which, you know, which, which is obvious. Perfect. But I'd love to hear it from you. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I wanna start at the very beginning, which is my parents. And they, they conceived me in a really special way. Snuck away to a wood cabin where they had to hike in for kilometers in the French Canadian snow in the middle of winter, and there were no furniture when they got there. So they lit a big fire and then they laid down their fur coats in front of the fire, and that's where I came in. Oh, so I like my beginnings. Yes. Then very hot. I was born into. So my why this is important, it really frames everything, is my parents, they, they were raised in very religious settings and they chose together not to bring any of that information to their own children. They wanted to see what would happen if we didn't impose any ideas or ideologies or. Have tos and just created a safe space. So my mom said I essentially was born and came out and was self pleasuring like from the first. Wow. She's like, what is my baby doing? And so she then her and my dad made the decision, protect, create healthy boundaries but don't inhibit. So I had from. Birth a young age, a really strong, connected relationship with my body. It wasn't in my being something that was sexual because I didn't know that concept. It was just, I'm connected to me. This feels nice. Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. By the time I was five, I had discovered a very special spot. And I thought all my friends should know about it. So my very first teaching class in a little circle of girls in a basement, we were all five years old. I decided to model oh, where the spot was and I got in so much trouble. Oh, wow. When I was thrown out of the house and basically ostracized from my friends and called the Devil Spun Uhhuh. I remember thinking in my head. I don't think she knows where that spot is. 'cause if she did, she wouldn't be this angry uhhuh. Right, right. So this sets the frame of, you know, Saida's personality, where pleasure is something just inherent and natural that others should know about it. And that, oh wait, the whole, the, the other world that's out there has this weird anger, strange fear relationship around this stuff. So that started very young, grew up. A, uh, pretty violent First Nations reservation in Canada, and a lot was going on there. So my house where I grew up was a shelter for abused women. So I saw a lot as a kid, um, and got to hear stories. So this was all kind of forming me in a really interesting way, like. So why the, the birth of something called sexual sovereignty, which now everybody's using, but when I was started to use that term, nobody was using it a long, long time ago, almost 20 years ago. So I believe it started there because I remember advising women, looking at them with like boot marks in their back and going, this is not love. I don't know what it is, but it's not love. And I was very young, but I knew that inherently when I was 20. Fast forward. So I didn't have any problems with my own body or any, I had some strange abuses that did happen on the the reservation, but nothing that. Somehow couldn't contextualize and manage, but when I was 20, I had to had a violent experience in the Caribbean that led to being told I had two weeks to live. It was, um, because I'd had a P, it's pelvic inflammatory disease. I got that from a. Rape experience and when you're 20, you think you're immortal. So being told that you have two weeks to live was a massive shock. It, it, it woke something up in me. Yeah. And clearly I did not, uh, yes. Go with my surgeon's verdicts. Yes. And I defied that and I chose a very organic path. I'm like, no, I'm choosing to live. And I was led step by step. To the journey that I went on to reconstruct my everything. Amazing. And that's where the method that I'm teaching and empower other professionals to teach and you know, the public is exposed to came. The origins of that came from. Having to face my own death. Yes. And then the reclamation, like, I don't wanna be, I didn't even think of myself as a survivor of anything. I just knew I wanted to thrive. Right. It wasn't until many years later that someone said, do you realize that you are a survivor of rape? I'm like, oh, I never identified with that. And I think maybe in part, that really helped me in my healing journey because I was just more, I wanna live, I wanna thrive, I wanna feel good. And so. At some point in that journey, when I was walking on the streets or in a cafe or wherever I went, women would come up to me and say, I dunno what you're doing, but I, I just wanna do what you're doing. Are you teaching something? And so that's where it started in Vancouver, Canada. And I remember my very first circle there and, and minutes before going, what the heck am I gonna share with these people? And then all of a sudden when it started, the container opened. It was like a voice of maybe an elder aspect of myself or a wise aspect or something integrated, something not childish came through that was so attuned to the group that knew things, not because they were concepts, 'cause they, it was from the inside outs. Mm-hmm. And so I started to just share that way. But what emerged in the groups, as you know, you do this work, you open a little bit of a door and so much can come. That I realized this is a really profound space. This is not a space to mess with. It's not a space to titillate, it's not a space to bring kind of grandiose ideas to, I need to be really firmly here and in deep, deep service. So at some point I decided I need to get certified, I need to get educated, I need, and then eventually had the PhD and since then, mm-hmm. Did more research. So the path really did me, if that makes sense. And it was profoundly informed first by personal experience and then probably tens of thousands of women by now, like really working with them. Their bodies, their, their direct feedback. Because when you share something and they're like, nah. That doesn't land, or I don't feel it, or I have no idea what you mean. You need to feel into what's going on. And so that's how the method was developed. And then one day I just kind of tried to go, okay, what am I doing exactly and could I share this with others so that they could replicate it? So that's kind of where I ended up with the embodied psychosexual method. Wow. There's so many points there that really stand out for me. Yes. I mean, SIDA, the fact that your parents were part of. It sounds like this religion, but they really intentionally protected you, you know, and kind of held, held a space for your organic life force to emerge as it wanted to. Yes. Is so significant. You know, because it feels to me like, I mean, the way you kind of, you know, taught all the five-year-old neighbors, like what, you know, what this joy and life force available to them in their bodies, you know, at that young of an age that's like, that's like. You destiny, like in this little girl. But it also sounds like you know the, you know, the shock that 20 to be given two weeks to live and to realize what's really vital in life and how you're going to treat, I mean, I'm just imagining for a young 20-year-old how that shapes your destiny is. Profound. And it's so beautiful that you kept listening, you know, for how that life force wanted to guide you and inform you, you know, and you know, like, as you said, tens of thousands of clients and women's and, and, and followers, you know, get to benefit as a result. Um, I wanted to ask you about this because I've also spent time, um, with Master Montauk Chia and in the emergence book. Was, was, can you speak about like your healing journey in your young life? Was that an instrumental piece? Was that kind of foundational in your understanding of how to cultivate your own life force? Good question. So yeah, a few, there were like probably three substantial guides that came through at that point. One was the, uh, the book, the Healing love book from Manta Chia. Yes. Just like, wait, I can, what's ovarian kung fu? Like, I didn't know what it was, but I knew there were something there for me. And then there was a Stephen Chang's, uh, book as well. And then there was the Metu Netter, which is an Egyptian book and, and practices. And if you read it, if you understand it, it's all the same practices as the Taos practice. It's just that it's written in a way that if you don't understand, you won't get the practice. But if you are initiated, you can. It's like it's all there. So I had those, those, the Taos Chinese influence at that time. And then the, the Metro, which is more Egyptian, and then my own background with Native American, you know, just those traditions. Yes. Uh. Being kind of like introduced like earth medicine traditions. Those all were very instrumental. In the beginning, and definitely there's strong Taoist practice that influenced In the beginning I did a lot of Qigong. In the beginning, I did like, I think I was training three hours a day every day and never missed a day for the first three years. And after that I went down to maybe hour and a half a day, like another decade. And then, so practice has been a big, a big part of my life and which is why I'm such an advocate. Walk your talk like, don't talk to me unless you've done it. Yes. People who tell me they practice five minutes a day, I'm like, that's just an attunement practice of like hello to the body. But it's not, you're not yet in the landscape of that body, right. That takes actually investment of attention and time. So it's, it's a different language and I think that's what's given me the gift to feel into people's bodies very, very deeply. Where especially if there's been a lot of trauma. My work somehow existed before the words trauma informed came along. Yes. And so when trauma therapists have come into my work, they're like, wow, this is way beyond trauma informed. If anything, it's like trauma transcended because it's, it acknowledges the journey we need to take to, to get to a place where we stabilize post-trauma, but it never takes people into possibility. And that's where my work goes. It kind of opens that door into possibility. And I think that's a really crucial missing piece. Yes. Of the journey for, for a lot of us. Yes. Yeah, it is. It's very interesting because I wanna talk about, I mean, what you've witnessed as far as pleasure and erotic energy. I mean, you know, we use these semantic words to describe just different emanations of life force. Yes, it's all life force and aliveness. And, but I feel like what's, what's very missing in trauma healing is the understanding of how pleasure brings aliveness to the body. Just as you're saying, beyond restoring and repairing trauma, but into like a whole other realm of consciousness. Absolutely. And, um, I haven't written this yet, but I'm, I'm in a deep contemplation around this for a while, and, uh, as you know, there, I have published some papers. Like I, I like research. I'm a bit of a geek that way, but I'm also very much like an organic wild girl. So there's these, I hold, uh. Uh, the clinical application of arousal and pleasure, a paper on that because we avoid, I, I don't know why clinically we avoid, we don't discuss these things, but arousal is a sign that something like, say if the tissue gets engorged. That's healthy. Why are we afraid of that? Why do do we make it wrong? Right? I've had pelvic exams and just the way in which, because my body's responsive, which is healthy. Yes, it gets touched in the pelvic exam and there's arousal. I don't wanna have sex with the person. Of course, they don't wanna have sex with me, but there's just this natural arousal. I'm comfortable with it because I don't feel like every month. Moment of arousal means it's a sexual moment. Mm-hmm. Because I've learned that my body engorges and my body doesn't, and then it does. And then it doesn't. Yeah. So I wanna make a case for if arousal arises within these contexts, it needs to be normalized and celebrated. Like, wow. Yes, it's your body, it's healthy. The tissue's engorging, everything's functioning really beautifully. Fantastic. Just some good feedback so that the person's not just lying there in a pelvic exam going, is everything okay? They're not saying anything. You know what's going on, right? And then the next level of that is pleasure and I know it's pleasure is a sign that the mechanism is in a good place. 'cause when you are in distress, you, you don't have pleasure. So something to pleasure. We're not meant to only have pain everywhere. That's just not the how we're designed. The nervous system is designed to also feel and enjoy and experience and expand upon pleasurable, easeful, delightful sensation. Yes. And that is healthy information for all of you know, the immune system works better, digestive system works better, everything works better. When you have that ease and that delight and that goodness, yes, or what I like to call the yum part of life. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wanna make a case for that so that we can start not being afraid. Because honestly, where people get hung up is not in the fact that it exists. It's the meaning that we put on it. Exactly. So if pleasure arises in a pelvic exam. It's the meaning we put on it that creates the shame or the weirdness or the badness. Or the inappropriateness, absolutely. But if we could contextualize it and as a celebration, look, you're functional. This is amazing. Like it's actually, especially for women who've been through things or are a menopausal or something weird is going on with the body where they don't fully understand, but they can get that reflection. Look, you're still very juicy. Things are still responding be, these are sessions that I've done with a gynecologist with clients where you give, uh. It's like there's a bit of cognitive dissonance between someone going through menopause and what's actually happening in their pelvis. So when they get the visual and then they're told like, look, this is engorging, this is healthy, this is moist, this is, you have pleasurable sensation. This is all fantastic. All of a sudden they have to accept. Oh, maybe I'm not like old and shriveled and useless and you know. Right. All that stuff. Yeah. So I wanna make a case for arousal and pleasure and normalize these as very, very, this is the, the human being in its optimized expression. Yeah. I love what you're saying because what I'm hearing is that why can't arousal and pleasure the other markers and indicators reflecting good health. You know, blood flow, tissue, engorgement, you know, sensitivity, all of those things, oxygenation of the tissue. You don't have pleasurable sensation without there being nitric oxide in, in oxygenation of the tissue. So all of these are good health, healthy markers. Totally, totally. And it's never, you know, I mean, sexual arousal and engorgement, it's never what, I mean, it's like what you do with what happens as well as, as you pointed out, the meaning that people place to it. Yes. You know, like here in Los Angeles, we have a month, a bimonthly potluck, you know, at at our place for sexuality professionals, and someone was saying that in pt, in pelvic therapy. Mm-hmm. What they're taught is when a male client has an erection during a PT exam, they're required to leave the room and just the message that that sends. You know, around shame around, you know, what it means around who's at fault. It's just, it's, it's, it's shocking. I remember being, I had many different jobs, uh, you know, in my life and one of them I wanted to do, I learned a style of massage. It was kind of a. Swedish style mixed with aromatherapy, with energetics. It was just interesting witchy lady in Vancouver who was certifying people through this particular modality, and I really loved it 'cause it was the whole body, but not the genitals. They weren't like touched, but. They were included in the sense that it's part of the body. I'm gonna move something over, but I'm not gonna get upset about it. But it was not a genital session. Mm-hmm. But it was very sensual. And what I wanted to give adults is it is possible to receive loving touch from a person without having to give anything back and without having it be the a sexual act. Because I feel like in adulthood, the only time we really get touched is if we actually have sex. Yeah, the rest of the time we're kind of ignored. What I noticed though, is both men and women would get intensely aroused at times in those sessions. 'cause they were being touched with a lot of presence and connection and then we were breathing and so, and then my own natural sensuality like and relaxation around these things. And then the aromatherapy, like all of that blended. Oh. And I remember telling the client, look, this might be, this may happen. Your body and it's welcome here, Uhhuh. Nothings going to come of it. I'm not going to engage with it. Mm-hmm. But also just breathe into it. Enjoy it. It's your body, it's, it's your body relaxing. It's your own, you know, system being Yes. Saying, hey, hello, you're just. I, yeah. Yeah. It's a healthy response. It's a healthy response. And so if we can contextualize things properly and actually strip things, like if we have our own triggers, then we need to do the work, obviously. Yes. Like if we've been abused or, or the lines have been crossed and we need to uncross those lines. Of course. Like we need to do that work. So we get very clear. But I have found. In desire, the book desire. I talk a lot about many phases of the erotic evolution, the first being erotic innocence, and I really feel as adults there needs to be a return to that erotic innocence where it's not always about like pornographic acts of sexuality. Sometimes there's just. There's just turn on moving through the system and how lovely is that? And I get to breathe into that and take authority and ownership of that and make wise choices with do I express this now or not? And if I choose not to express it, 'cause it's not appropriate, I can still let it th through my system and enliven me. I don't need to shut it down. So this is a big edge for a lot of my students. Is learning that categorically there is a gray zone between being completely switched off and completely switched on. There's a lot happening in between and it's in that in between that I think a lot of the aliveness cultivation needs to happen. Yes, that's so well said that that. Yes. I mean, you know, as you're describing the style of massage, you were, you were facilitating, it made me, I'm sure a lot of those bodies for the very first time got to experience a very down-regulated nervous system and really healthy arousal. Yes. And I think that can, that's such a game changer for lovers. You know, because our nervous for a lot of, for a lot of people, the nervous system is, is wired with upregulation and higher arousal states. Yes. And just separating that alone is, is is such a empowering freedom for a lot of bodies. Yeah. This is what I often refer to as a state of relaxed arousal. Yes. And relaxed arousal is, is crucial. A lot of people don't understand it. They think we, we need to be like sympathetically aroused or we need to be. Mm-hmm. Relax, right? But it's like, no, there's is this, the dynamism between all of this information is what creates this beautiful aliveness. So yes, be alive, be aroused, be awake, be engaged, but be at ease with it. Be in the state where the front body can soften and, and be spacious. Yes. With that experience. So, and then in states of relaxed arousal, so many. Other say, aspects of living and being become open and available to us that are not available if we're hyper-vigilant or kind of in that shutdown space. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just so within a trains in the in between. Yeah. And it's just, it's almost like kind of a, a portal to a new realm of embodiment and connection and consciousness. I could geek out with you forever, but I do wanna ask you some pointed questions for our listeners. Right. I'd love to know Sida. So in the Rewilding process, you know, many folks grow up, you know, as you mentioned, your, your parents, you know, with, with, um, religious influences or cultural influences where sex is wired or associated with shame or disconnection. I'd love to, for our audiences to get a sense of the work that you do and facilitate. What are some. For, you know, initial internal or embodied shifts that you invite people into when they start reclaiming their erotic sovereignty and specifically around resolving the shame that they grew up with, because that's such a yes, you know, epidemic in our culture. It is. There's a course I did once called Shameless Surrender, and I, I unpack, I'm like, well, there's actually the purpose of shame. Originally is really just, there's a sweetness to it in the sense of I wanna protect this person from, from bad things. So then if I shame them, then they're morally going to behave better and pay attention to things. So shame is used as a way to kind of keep people more conscious about their choices, but it doesn't work that way. Mm-hmm. It's just, if you could see kind of the benevolent aspect of why maybe people project and put shame onto each other, so there's shamelessness or. Erotic innocence, the capacity to just be present with what is without right, wrong, good, bad, and then check in with the body. And is this a, is this a yes? Is it a no? Is it, I'm not sure yet. And be able to just be at home with that process of how am I orienting myself that proprioceptive. In space, where am I in relation to life itself and the things around me? And then as I'm taking in information through my sensuality, which is how we all make sense of reality, right? It's like without the senses, there's no. So turning up sensuality not down, especially women are, are taught that if we, we need to turn it down in order to be safe, that is a complete bs. That's part of the rewilding process. When you're in the wilderness, you have to have your sensuality on full blast. You need all the information from all your senses coming in Unimpeded. 'cause that is what orients you to being in harmony with all the other beings that exist in that wilderness setting. Mm-hmm. Without that, you kind of clump around noisily and with ignorance and can cause a lot of chaos and even danger because you're, you're unaware and you're unreceptive. So it's actually very key. For people to bring sensuality back online. Uhhuh. Wow. You know, I was gonna ask you about the Rewilding process, and you described it so well of being in the wild, in the elements of nature and really attuning. So you're working synergistically, you know, as an expression of that life force, you know, as opposed to being separate from or working. Uh. You know, in conflict with it. Yeah. So the, the rewilding, a lot of it happens without words. So when I bring people into the wilderness, there's many days of silence. Very little instruction. I might give you one sentence, you know, a question to contemplate or something, but there is a, a little bit of animal communication training prior and, and other attunement processes prior. But the most important is just to be there and really be there. No distractions. You don't have your phone, you don't have anyone else around you. There's new and foreign sounds because if you've never heard a. A wild lion roaring or a hyena or a leopard or an elephant, like they're all very like, wow, what are these sounds are very wild and intense, and finding your place in that and starting to recognize, and this is what I love about the wilderness. You don't actually have an inner space. All those wild beings can read everything, all whatever you're hiding and holding onto. If it's anger, if it's fear. It's like emanating very loudly into the space and it gets immediately reflected back to you. So part of the Rewilding process is to realize, wait, I belong to life and if I belong to life, I am. Okay. Just as I am right here, as I am and in that I'm part of this whole experience and I have impact, and therefore I actually deeply matter because every choice I make has a ripple effect and the choices that the other beings make. In and around me also have that ripple effect. And when you start to be attuned in that way, there's a synergy that happens and it's so gorgeous. So I believe what happens when we're out there, which is super interesting, is the Prelingual self comes back online. And that's a really important part of the human being that needs to come back. 'cause that part has so much intelligence. It's so much intelligence. Mm-hmm. And attunement that's hard to explain. Sure. Like a, a quick story. After I came back from the wilderness, this time I'm indoors in the house. I'm working on the computer to not wild things whatsoever. I suddenly. For no reason that I can think of at the time. Put my computer down, go immediately outside, walk to this weird part of the property that I've never been to before, find a turtle, trail in the dirt, follow the turtle trail, and then I look up just on time to see a really bad fire explode and no one had noticed it yet. So I raised the alarm and like. We were lucky that we, you know, it got handled, but how did I know? And it's that level when you, when you reclaim your belonging to life, there's an attunement that happens that you can notice in animals. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They'll like seem to get weird around, you know, before tsunami or before storm. And everyone's like, it's fine. What's wrong with my animal? Right. When you start to be attuned, then you also are like, you know what? I think I need to move or I need to go elsewhere or do something else. And, and then. Yes. Later. Find out why. Yes, yes. I mean, what I'm hearing from you Sida is, I mean, what you're describing is so profound and you know, is a reflection of how disconnected we are to the life force of the earth, the planet, the elements. But what you're speaking to is an invitation for lovers to cultivate that attunement, to synergy and to another alive force. And so it's almost like the most incredible training to be a wonderful lover is being in nature in. And being inviting this synergistic attunement as one organism and to attune to the shifts and the changes and the desires of your, your environment. It's interesting that you said that, 'cause I, I know you practiced Qigong or you did, or you are interested in that. And many, many years ago, I, I did a lot of different types of chi, but I remember a learning one that was. Kind of a difficult one, not a popular one, difficult, strange. And you had to do a lot of standing practice for a really long time. And there was this moment where I started to understand, ah, the human being is the meeting point of heaven and earth. It's how the cosmos is actually making love over and over again is through us, through all the elemental aspects of who we are. And then I would start to have these ecstatic, cosmic kind of bliss orgasmic states. Purely just standing there breathing as I was attuning to this kind of elemental experience that was happening. And I mean, you could ask my current partner, but every time I do, whether we're both together or I go on my own and come back, have time in nature. There's an element of the love making that's even more ecstatic and more present and more full of life, let's say. Full of sparkle. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I can. I can totally see that. I wanted to ask you. In regards to that, since we're on this topic about sexual polarity. You know, in the, in the chara world, there's a lot of emphasis on cultivating your, your core polarity so that when you come together, those polarities really have a dance. In your work, in your teachings, how, how is polarity introduced and like facilitated so people get in touch with their core, you know, core energy essences? It's an interesting question. 'cause on one level I'm not a big. Person for the superficial polarity information. 'cause I feel it makes people behave in really weird ways. I'm like, just be, just do you? Right. 'cause when I hear someone saying, yeah, I need to be more feminine, it's like telling a lioness be more of a lioness. Like she's gonna look at you like you're, what is wrong with you? Yeah. Like. Yeah, I am a lions. I can't be more or less like I'm feminine. I can't be more or less feminine. Uhhuh. My masculine energy can't be more or less, it's what it is. Uhhuh, do I access it? So when there's this element of people saying, oh, I don't have enough this. I'm like, no, you have it. You're just not aligned with your own version of it, and you're trying to be feminine, like, I don't know, this flowy white light goddess over here, and then there's this dark goddess over here and you're trying to like polarize yourself and like maybe you're ne neither of those, or maybe you're all of it like. I don't know. So in some ways I stay away from feminine masculine words and I prefer, uh, receptive, active. I think that's a little bit more easy to understand in the energetics. Yes. And then say with my ladies, I will teach an advanced practice called the inner marriage, and that involves. Different channels of the body and kind of creating that inner marriage of blending different aspects of your own nature. Mm-hmm. And through shamanic astrology, I explored a little bit the work of Daniel Gia, Mario. He says there's what, 144 different versions of the masculine and the feminine. There's a lot of aspects. So what I love about that though, what it says is. I cannot tell you, like, be like this, right? And, and then you're gonna be perfect. Rather, I'd like to invite you into notice where in your being you are more receptive and have you practiced just allowing that part to be the dominant aspect of you in this moment. Can you really let yourself receive? And what does receiving actually look like? And maybe your, your experience of masculine is a receptive vessel, not a mm-hmm. I play a lot with trying to dismantle like assumptions because everyone then tries to squish this wild being into this little cookie cutter. I'm like, now you're behaving very strange. And I always say like, data bots, like they stare at you because they're masculine and they want, right, right. And I'm like, whoa, dude. Like, and I want flash on my titties or something just to kind of like, like how present are you gonna be now? Yeah, so, so there's this naughtiness that can come of me at times in these, in these spaces. But think about the way I prefer to play with it is can we self generate inside a, a space where, say the heart genital practice, where there's this beautiful energetic of the heart that's beautiful, energetic of the genitals, and you have the union of that or the. You know, the psyche and the aero come together. You have the union of that. What, what is birth of that? It's a form of magnetism. To me that's far more exciting than polarity because now I'm like, I'm, I'm either drawing in as a magnet. There's this. Attractive cept quality to the magnet. But there's also a, a, a quality of pushing away and out and feeling into space. Yes. Which is the active and sensorial aspect. Uhhuh. So that's a little bit how I play with that. So maybe I'm a bit not answering your question the way you wanted to. No, you are, you're, and you're answering it spot on. And I think it makes so much more sense. And I love, it's so refreshing to hear a, you know, um. Someone in the se sacred sexuality field to speak about polarity in that way. Because, you know, to your point, the, the, the, the spectrum of masculine is so wide and feminine, 44 ways. I love that. And, you know, it, it is our, our invitation in this lifetime is to really align to what is true within our life force and how that shows up, you know, within these. Yes. Yeah. I love it. I love it. And what's, what's interesting too, when you start to study different lineages is they sometimes flip flop the meanings of things. Yeah. So when you see the flip floppiness, then you're like, okay, well then what's true for me? Mm-hmm. At the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Because for some of us, the feminine aspect is actually more of a warrior lioness type, and our masculine aspect is more the nurturing father. Energy. Yeah. So who knows? You know? Right. What is what and how is how. So the more important thing though is what is me and what does, what feels true to me? And where is it that I, I have pushback. Where is it that I'm like, that I feel seen, that feels real, that feels true. And you cannot know that if you don't marinate in your own essence. If you don't really sit with that and then you start to track, that's attractive. That's not attractive. Well, what are you learning about yourself when you're seeing and feeling those things? Yes. Marinating in your own essence. Yes. So I love that. Um. I wanted to ask you Sida, you know, like a lot of listeners have, you know, you know, they're, they're, they're balancing work and raising kids and, and, and so forth and so on, and, and they're like, oh, I wish I could have three hours to have a Qigong practice, but you know, I've gotta find time where I can For folks like that, like you talked about the heart genital axis and this wonderful like, you know, discovery that happens when these two forces come together. Are there some kind of Yes. Simple practices that you encourage people who feel like they don't have time because the consistency of practice is so vital with anything. Yes, yes. But particularly when it comes to energy cultivation. Well, there's, there's two answers to this. Okay. There's the how deep do you want to go? Like how meaningful is this for you? How important is it? Because if you're going to learn, say how to play an instrument, the degree to which you devote. Time to learning that instrument and just having fun with it and discovering and expanding is going to kind of tell you, are you just a very basic guitar player that knows three chords, or are you the next Jimmy Hendrix? Exactly, exactly. So it depends like. To what extent is this calling you? However, all of us are inherent practitioners, and the reason I wanna say that is we're all sensual. If we weren't, we wouldn't be able to make sense of all of this, and we all breathe. And so for me, the breath is one of the most, the greatest teachers. It's the wisest teacher. It's telling you how to receive the world with the in breath. Mm-hmm. It's telling you every moment how to release. Let it go. It's done. It's complete. Yes. And so every moment is as if you want, is a practice literally in life. And so if you're really, really busy, just keep in mind, receive a breath, release a breath, that's it. And you do that all day long. You will have done a lot more practice. Probably mm-hmm. Than if you had concentrated in five minutes to try and like squish something in. Yeah. Oh, I love that. It's so true. And I think the first point is really like, I wanna underscore that because I mean, obviously we all have choices to make in regards to how much time to devote to anything. Yes. And how much to prioritize. I mean, it's really a conscious choice. So just for listeners to recognize like what, what you know are your choices reflecting your priorities? And how can you shift priorities to really make it a regular meditation for yourself? You know, because our life force is really the most important thing. Yes. You know, like in our existence. Well, one way I like to play with it, again, I said the word yum earlier, but there's also the word yuck. Mm-hmm. And so. One of the things that I noticed with some of my clients, there's an obsession with yuck. There's so much energy spent focused on the yuck. Mm-hmm. And so I'm like you, I'm not gonna prescribe watching more news and. Reading more research and mm-hmm. You know, all this kind of stuff. I'm gonna prescribe reading the Radiant Sutras. Mm-hmm. Listening to beautiful music being in the forest, because I want you to start training, flexing your capacity to notice the yum. Yes. And to take it in. And that is the practice. Because I think the greatest training right now that we humans can do is where we. Paying attention. Yes. We're literally paying with our life force. Yes. So where wherever we invest. So is it overly focused on the yuck or can you move some of that attention intentionally to noticing the yum. And I know sometimes it's hard. There's a lot of stuff going on, but Yum is always available. It's just a matter of where the attention can be. And sometimes yum might be you're in a traffic jam, your car's not moving, but there's some nice sunlight coming through and it's warming your skin and you open the window and maybe you're, you know, on that Pacific Highway, wherever in LA Yes. Yeah. PC and there's a, there's the sea breeze smell. And so suddenly, yes, you're stuck in traffic. There's a nice smell. There's warm sunshine. You are taking some deep breaths. Yeah. And maybe you turn off the news and you put on your favorite book, or your favorite poetry, or your favorite songs or music. Yeah. And you start cultivating some yum in the midst of a stressful experience because you're in that traffic and you gotta get somewhere. Now what you're doing is you're practicing taking ownership authority. Autonomy, sovereignty of your own moments of life, because otherwise you're just a victim to everything that's happening around you. And I really believe we're a choice with that. Mm-hmm. That's something that we're a choice with is the noticing and the propensity to focus on you. Not enough on yum. Focusing more on that. And then for a lot of people, especially I find for ladies. They're very resistant to name what they would love. They're very good at saying what they don't want, but they're not willing to vocalize what they would really love. And sometimes I, I'm even. And can be one of those people. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's such a vulnerability. Because if I were to say it rocky out loud, there's a chance I don't get it right. And that is like devastating to me. Mm-hmm. But if I'm unwilling to turn my attention to the yum. And all I'm left with is paying attention to the things I really don't like and I don't want. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which I get more of every day. So this is the practice that I think is very practical. You can apply it anywhere, in any situation. Receive a breath. Release a breath. Mm-hmm. Oh, I'm noticing a lot of yuck. What is the yum available in this moment? Okay, here it is. Tuning into that and allowing myself to take. One, two breaths. Just thank you. Okay. Now I'm gonna focus back at this difficult experience that I'm having right now, but now I'm more me, I'm more centered. I, I'm more attuned. I can face it differently. Yes. Sida, what you just described, I think is like a life lesson. You know, it, I mean, I'm sure you know the Buddha or someone, I mean, it's like, it's one of these things that, that we all need to remind ourself of. We are at choice in any moment, and I to bring it to, you know, sexual intimacy, I, I, people really focus on what's not working, you know, as opposed to what is working and even within a lovemaking experience. You know, it could be, you know, wonderful love making, but then something happens and then suddenly like the whole world's crashing, when in fact, leading up to it, it was amazing, you know? Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, like with like with with clients who experience something like that, I always encourage them, you know, if something doesn't go well, you know, return to what feels good, you know, in the moment so that, you know, otherwise there's this kind of anxiety that starts building up. You know, that's something that, what went wrong, whatever that is for. Mm-hmm. You know, the, the meaning making brain, you know, gets to become this mountain. But I love that. I love that. It is, it is like a core life lesson. I would love to share something personal for a moment. Oh yes, please. Around, around love making and around difficult moments. One thing I love, you know, my partner. Yes. And how he is and how he moves has really given me a opportunity to be even a more expressed human in this realm. I was already expressed, but the way that he's, these gifts that he's brought in. Yes. And one of the gifts he's brought in is, please, SIDA, you need to tell me if something isn't feeling nice. Uh, or if you have even just a moment of discomfort like you need to tell me instead of like breathing through it or gritting your teeth, or whatever it is. So that was a new experience for me. Not in the telling, because I would often express like OW or something like that. Yeah. But in the now, he's noticed that I'm even guiding him to stay present with. So when we feel something slightly off, we don't avoid it. We lean in, we vocalize like, oh, something's. Feeling a little funny here, or my heart or whatever. And then we lean in, we breathe, we pause, we feel into it. And as we breathe and feel into it, the thing that was momentarily ago, a problem becomes actually blissful. Wow. And we've done this so many times that we've training ourselves. That challenge or an interruption or a difficulty is an invitation. Yeah. Into more beauty, into more connection, into more pleasure. If we're willing. Together to not avoid it, not poo poo it, not make it bad, wrong, all these things, but just like be with that. And I just find that rather extraordinary. It is extraordinary. What you're describing is, is there's so many things that that describes, but one of the things is the genital disarming process. You know, it's like if there is some sort of armor, it's almost the cellular tissue. Kind of having a marker for the body owner to say, Hey, let's look at this. There's something to look at here. And the way that, that you and your beloved can see it as an invitation and be with it. And it, it allows it to have the attention that it's wanted, you know? Yeah. And then metabolize as a result. And then there's so much more pleasure and. Spaciousness on the other side, and it creates more trust so that if something arises the next time around, you're both a tiny bit more confident. Like, we can go here now. Yes. And so then maybe it's not a physical thing that's going on, maybe it's an emotional thing that's going on, but now you've, because you've done it in, in the embodiment process, then through the body you can also sit with the emotional maybe little. Niggle that's happening over here and just be with it and breathe into it and allow it. And so we've both been really learning like, okay, here's how in that space we can attend to this piece instead of avoiding it or making it wrong or pointing the finger or any of those things. So that creates even more trust and and connection. So I really love to that I'm still to this day, learning and growing. As you reflected back to. The beauty of the simplicity of that. Like, Hey, you know, did you know that you could just lean in towards the thing that feels like an owie and that that point of that greatest pain or that moment in your life that was really hard can become a point of power for you? And that's been a huge part of my transformational work with people. I feel like that brought us full circle. You know, like I was like really curious to hear about the evolution of your, um. You know, body of work and your own personal sexual aliveness. And I feel like that's really what you've been doing is, you know, you've been leaning in to examine, be with, make love with, you know, like embrace all of the areas that are full of lessons and it's just continue to, you know, support your evolution. You know, not only in your own aliveness, but in your partnership and in your work. I, I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes, it's beautiful. How can people find out about you and connect with you? Sure, so there's the university that Aaron and I created called Embodied Love University. Basically the front facing is free for everyone. You just need an email address and what's available at that level. We we're like, what are the five foundational things that could help raise humanity's bedroom iq? So we make available those five foundations, and then there's. The free part of the podcast and then the whole bunch of free little mini trainings people can really learn and grow, and we've gamified that. Of course there's some paid membership levels. If you also just wanna find me directly, then my name, kind of anywhere, Dr. Saida Desilets on Instagram or LinkedIn or Yes, wherever. Um, and then Dare Your Desire Do com is like my older website. That's just kind of me, but the Embodied Love universities. Then you one. Embodied Love University. That's terrific. So we're gonna have all the, um, links in the show notes. Saida, it's been such a pleasure to connect with you. Thank you so much for being who you are, for really attuning to how the life force wants to move through you and, you know, like helping. All your audiences, your students, everyone else, your readership, now students at the university cultivate that sense of attunement and interconnection and aliveness as well. It's really been fun to watch your evolution and thank you. Um, give my best to Aaron, please. Absolutely. And also to your partner for me and from Aaron. Yes. How is this episode landing for you and your body right now? Are there ways you can explore being a choice in where you place your attention risk, naming what you truly want and normalizing your arousal and pleasure as healthy expressions of being alive? Are there ways you might lean into moments that feel challenging, whether in your love making, your partnership or in your daily life? Trusting that what feels like an owie can evolve into a point of extraordinary power and delicious pleasure. Ling's to ADA's work at Embodied Love University, dare Your desire and to her book's desire and the emergence of the sensual woman can be found in the show notes. If this conversation supported you in any way. A simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, may you find your own practices for returning to aliveness, whether that's three hours or three breaths, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Dr Saida Desilets, embodied sexuality, erotic empowerment, female pleasure, feminine power, intimacy practices, nervous system regulation, pelvic vitality, pleasure healing, Rahi Chun podcast, relaxed arousal, rewilding, Sacred Sexuality, sensual embodiment, sexual confidence, sexual sovereignty, shame and sexuality, somatic sexuality, Taoist sexual practices, trauma healing through pleasure --- ### [Consent, Race & Sacred Sexuality: Power, Boundaries & Awareness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-race-sacred-sexuality/) **Published:** October 29, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Amina Peterson created The Atlanta Institute of Tantra to provide safe & joyous havens for the exploration and reclamation of our embodied sexual nature, power, authentic consent, and erotic pleasures. Her experiential wisdom from deep dives into the nature of tantra, somatic presence, sexual healing, and erotic bodywork has yielded trainings for Somatic Sexologists, Bliss retreats for erotic abolitionists, and mentorships for those seeking to hold such sacred sexual liberation spaces. She shares her journey and insights into the art of space holding for sexual wholeness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Consent, Race & Sacred Sexuality: Power, Boundaries & Awareness # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the intersection of consent, race, and power in sexuality with Goddess Amina Peterson. You’ll learn how awareness, boundaries, and cultural context shape intimate experiences. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/AminaBody.jpeg "AminaBody | Rahi Chun") The Atlanta Institute of Tantra: [AtlTantra.org](https://www.atltantra.org/) About Our Guest: Goddess Amina Peterson is a force of nature, a sexual revolutionary, and erotic abolitionist. She holds a sacred space for our natural and authentic sexual embodiment to be remembered, reclaimed, and honored in a variety of spaces. Some of the experiences that have informed her journey have included serving as a somatic healer, trained in Somatic Experiencing, Reiki and Yoga, as well as serving as a birth doula, sexual surrogate, personal trainer and sex coach. She founded the Atlanta Institute of Tantra in 2017 which has become the premier institute for training, certifying, and providing resources to Sexologists, Sacred Sex Workers, Sex Doulas, Cuddle Professionals and Bodyworkers who specialize in Somatic Sexology – a spiritual embodiment organization and community that centers on Black women and their pleasure. Amina and the Institute also trains and certifies Somatic Sexologists, hosts multi-day Bliss retreats and works with clients 1:1 virtually and in person in Panama City and Atlanta. ## What You’ll Learn About Consent, Power & Cultural Awareness $ How receiving a non-erotic Esalen-style massage when Amina owned a coffee cafe in Chicago in 2004, felt like being made love to and changed her life – inspiring her body to want to heal people with her hands, and within 10 days, asked for a divorce, closed her cafe, and enrolled in massage school. $ How Amina wanted to make her clients feel how she felt receiving that massage – waking up the erotic intelligence of the body and how it wants to be touched and showing that this is possible through one’s hands. $ How Dr. Reggie Ray’s “somatic descent” practice – a deep diving meditation of traversing the body from a place of inquiry and presence lead to navigating a new relationship with her body and understanding what is a true yes and “authentic consent.” $ How there are infinitely vast terrains to feel within the vaginal canal, or between the toes and how inviting a level of playfulness and curiosity supports deepening this intimate awareness with our selves. $ How once belonging is no longer an issue – within one’s self, in relationship, or within a group space, how real consent can feel and look very different for the body. $ How historical societal structures of patriarchy and racism are such that unless you are consciously anti-racist, you can unconsciously be affirming the racist norms that are in existence and the ways this affects particularly women of color in sacred sexuality circles. $ How sacred sexuality practitioners who are not familiar with the racialized experiences of Black women can start creating safer, more inclusive spaces by co-creating with partners who have the lived experiences of knowing the sensitivities and offenses to the nervous system this can bring, especially in such vulnerable and trust-required spaces involving sexual embodiment and well-being. $ How models of vulvas, breasts, lingams, and bodies are largely reflective of the white majority and how this affects the developing minds and self-identities of black or brown people who look different from the white majority. $ How many sacred sexuality teachings and spaces often miss the essential foundations of feeling embodied safety, learning how to down-regulate the nervous system, and nurturing a sense of belonging – a core need of our human species – before jumping into sexual “techniques” and result-oriented practices. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Somatic consent and touch awareness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [Consent in birth and medical systems ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-birth-medicine-body-authority/) [Trauma lives in the body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Extended lovemaking principles and practices](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-principles-and-practices/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's interview with Amina Peterson, we explore questions about spaces exploring the sacredness of sexuality. How is it possible to attune to the authentic consent of the body before developing an intimate connection with our body parts? How can a space be sacred to sexuality if it is not familiar with the ethnic or sociocultural experiences of the sexual beings inhabiting the space? And since safety and belonging is central to the nervous system's, openness and receptivity to pleasure, how safe are tantric and sacred sexuality circles when the space holders are unfamiliar with the racialized experiences of the bodies participating in the spaces they are facilitating. I am so excited to invite Goddess Amina Peterson to the podcast today. I've been following Amina for a couple of years and it was very fortuitous that I had someone in a recent training who's a dear friend of Amina's, and Kimberly linked this up and we've been communicating since then and working towards collaborating, and I'm very excited to have her on the podcast today. Goddess Amina Peterson is a force of nature, a sexual revolutionary and erotic abolitionist. I've never heard that term before. I love it. She holds sacred space for our natural and authentic sexual embodiment to be remembered, reclaimed, and honored in a variety of spaces. Some of the experiences that have informed her journey have included serving as a somatic healer, trained in somatic experiencing reiki and yoga, as well as serving as a birth doula. Sexual surrogate personal trainer and sex coach. She founded the Atlanta Institute of Tantra in 2017, which has become the premier institute for training, certifying and providing resources to sexologists sacred sex workers, sex doulas, cuddle professionals and body workers who specialize in somatic sexology. It's become a spiritual embodiment organization and community that centers on black women and their pleasure. Amina and the Institute also trains and certifies Somatic Sexologists hosts multi-day bliss retreats and works with clients one-on-one, virtually and in person in Panama City and in Atlanta, as well as mentoring professional Sexologists Goddess Amina. Thank you for joining us today. It's great to see you. Thank you for having me. It is great to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Awesome. Me too. Amina, I usually start off many interviews by asking about the pivotal experiences that have informed guests with what they're doing now. And you have such a varied and diverse like influences of experiences having been a birth doula, a sexual surrogate, a personal trainer. But I read in a medium article that you received an lin style massage in 2004 that seemed to have really changed your life and lead you to working with sexual embodiment. I'd love to know what was that experience that seemed to have influenced your trajectory. Yeah. It's interesting. I often, I wish I could find the woman that, that was, that whose hands were on my body. It was a time in my life where things were, I was young. And I was a go-getter of sorts. So I had already opened my own business. I have a, I had a cafe slash bookstore with a performance space. I was a performance poet, hobbyist. And so I had this space in Chicago on the south side where we really didn't have coffee houses. We, this is a food desert and an area where there weren't a lot of community resources. And so there was a lot of community support in creating this space. But I was exhausted because when you open a coffee shop, you have to wake up at four in the morning to get the coffee ready by five. And maybe five 30, you gotta be ready with coffee or it's not profitable. And I was sleep deprived. I was in a marriage that was reflective of. Lack of sleep, lack of connection, lack of intimacy. And I was just really burning both ends of the candle. And I decided to coming up on my one year anniversary of opening the cafe to have a get together with some of my girlfriends, and I hired, I brought in a massage therapist. I brought in a like pedicure, a facial, all these people to come in, just pamper us and everybody could just, book their sessions as they wanted when they got there. My only rule was that I was going first for the massage and I got on that table and that woman changed my entire life. The style of touch that she offered was a blend between some like Omi Loy, but really nurturing and almost like a hug. And that the sel n technique was just really, it felt like I was being made love to, in a way that I had never been made love to before in a way that didn't involve any erotic parts of me, so to speak. Like it awakened erotic energy, but it wasn't essential massage. I, she was barefoot, hippied out, and I was under a sheet. It was, there was no eroticism per se. But this, the massage really made me realize that I wanted to make people feel the way that I felt in that moment. And I just remember crying after this session and not being really confused about everything, what path I was on, what journey I had taken, what marriage I was in. Everything was all of a sudden just what are you doing? Yeah. You could be doing this, you could be actually healing people with your hands. Wow. And, and in the next, seven to 10 days I asked for a divorce. I, no, I announced that I would be closing my cafe and I enrolled in massage school. Wow. Like a true Aquarius. Yes. I know. As a fellow Aquar. I know. Yes. This is so amazing because what you are describing is, as you said, it wasn't a, an erotic massage per se, but the quality of presence and touch woke up this erotic energy in you, it this aliveness in you. Yeah. It shifted so much of just like how I understood my body and how really, like how people had been touching my body like how I had been allowing people to touch me, not knowing. What I wanted, how I wanted to be touched. Yes. And she showed me really how I wanted to be touched. And and she also just showed me that that this was possible from the hands. Like that this was possible somehow, some way to learn and be skilled enough to place your hands on someone and awaken everything in them. Yes. Yes. That's the other great thing is it does people really over overfocus on the genitalia and associate sexuality with the genitalia. The skin is like the biggest sex organ. Yes. And just what you shared Amina about, like not knowing what quality of touch that your body wanted until it received it. Can just wake up this dormant. This dormant primal aliveness. Yeah. Yeah. And it did just that, it woke me up in a way that I, that nothing I was doing, I could continue. Like I've never been so sure about anything in my life except that I was on the wrong path in every way at that moment. And and then that changed. That's amazing. Yeah. I went to massage school and I had worked previously as a sex surrogate. Not for a very long time. I'd worked under Dr. Dean Dean Dowell in Chicago. And I worked for a little under a year, so I had already been awakened and exposed to the reality that. Sex work was something beyond survival sex work, which is all I had witnessed up until that point was sex work as street walker. Sex work, as as the pimped woman on the street. I had not seen or had any exposure to sex work before I started working as a sex surrogate. And when I went to massage school, I still wasn't on the mindset that I wanna go back into any sort of sex work. But when I got there and I started touching people it was. I, the way that I touched, the way that I naturally went to touch people was sensuous. It was something where I really wanted to make contact with all of their skin. I wanted to feel what I felt on the table, and I wanted them to feel that. And I remember my teachers, some of my teachers just, really saying, wow, you really, you have the touch part down. We gotta get you on the muscles and the, naming you pass the test, but the touch part you have down. And shortly after completing school I started adding sensual touch, erotic touch to my sessions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what led me to even find the word tantra, because up until that moment I had never heard the word tantra. And it wasn't until I completed massage school and, offer started offering essential massage and someone asked for a tantra massage. I look up tantra massage, they're making more money. I was like what is this tanha stuff? Yeah. And that led me down v various rabbit holes led me to Buddhism. It led me to to understanding neo tantra, to it led me down so many pathways after that. Yeah. This is so awesome. I want to explore some of those rabbit holes, but specifically amina, I feel like the sanctuary you've created with the institute, the Atlanta Institute of Tantra, specifically as a sanctuary to cultivate and have a safe space for black women to explore their pleasure, their embodiment, their desires is such a unique haven. I'd love to know what were some of those, like most influential rabbit holes, since massage school that made you specifically envision the Atlanta Institute of Tantra for black women to really be, feel safe in really embodying all of who they are. Yeah, so there were a few one of the rapid holes that was probably the biggest and has been the most influential was some, just learning about what somatics was like. Just the the language the history. I was. Taking an online course with Reggie Ray and who, and I just had never heard anybody speak of the body in that way. Wow. I had never thought of my body in that way, and at this point I'm pretty well first in the body I thought. Totally. So that was, yeah, that was one rabbit hole that just I was like, oh my goodness. This is, I was longing also for spirituality. I had. Left my spiritual tradition and was visiting other spiritual traditions and nothing felt right until I found one that was really rooted in the body. And so that rabbit hole really shifted things. It also changed my understanding 'cause I was looking for tanha. That's how I ran up on Reggie Ray. He wrote a book called Tantra and I was like, oh, he's a tantric llama. Let me study under him and wrong, wrong tantra in my mind once I got there. But also very much the right tantra because it really shifted my understanding about how the body. Communicates with us, and it allowed me to apply all of that to my erotic work and the spaces that I'm in. So that was one rabbit hole. Yeah. What I, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No I wanted, because I'm not familiar with Reggie's work and maybe some of audience members aren't either. By this time, I understand that you had completed your massage school training, so you understand the anatomy you natural, it sounds like your touch just came very innate, natural. What was it about what you discovered studying with Reggie and his approach to Tantra that built new layers of understanding of, embodiment? Yeah, it's the biggest thing was like, it was, it, there was no focus on sex at all. So I like, there was one part of me that was like, I'm in the wrong classroom. Where am I at? What's happening here? And but then, because that wasn't the focus, it was just the focus on the entire body. And really one of the lessons was about just diving deep in, there's a practice called somatic descent, and you can Google this. Reggie Ray is, I think it's also on audible with Sounds True. Or you can go to Sounds True. And find his work there. The somatic descent is a meditation that takes place where you just, you literally go into the body, you go behind all of the story, and you just work to drop into the body. And in that space, you get to ask your body questions that you're curious about. And for me, it was in that practice that I really found consent for myself. Like up until that moment, I don't think I, I knew consent is like no means no, and yes means yes. I don't think until I started actually being in my body, practicing trying to exist inside of me being worried about just me for a bit. It wasn't until then that I really started navigating a relationship with consent, as I now know it, like this thing that, that. Bubbles up inside of me and allows me to allow, that allows me to say yes. Yeah. That's truly my own. Yeah. Yeah. And so that embodiment work really his work is so deeply rooted in embodiment. Like it is just, it is tantra, it is meditation, it is embodiment. It is from the tips of your toes there was one practice where we just had to find like the space in between our big toe and our little toe, our second toe, and just feel into that space. Like such very specific things that allowed me to realize like just how much. I, had been dissociating from my body had been disconnected from my body. And this is coming from somebody who thinks I know my body and I'm in touch with my body. And then I moved through this practice and I'm like, oh, there's so much more to learn. I'm I'm just a baby. I don't know what I'm doing here. So that's, and I'm still in that rabbit hole. That rabbit hole has blown my mind. And I hang out there quite often. Because it's led me, it's led me to a lot of different somatic practices, a lot of different studying and learning and then also looking at that. 'cause one of the things about a lot of the somatic schools of thought is that they. It's very interesting. They talk about everything except for the genitals. They're like somatic, somatics, not sex. Yeah. Totally. And yeah, so it has left me with this space to play and explore how to articulate all of this beautiful somatic theory from Strozzi, from Peter Levine and from, Stacy Haynes and folks like that. And then bring it into this erotic space which is so important, especially for those of us who are navigating racialized and gendered trauma. Societal trauma. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When you really look at tantra and its purity, it's the art of presence. And being present. And it sounds like Reggie's work just really creates this. Sanctuary of exploring presence with your own body and your intimate connection with your own body. Yeah. And it's infinite, like that space between the big toe and the second toe. If you can, I mean it sounds like you've bringing that kind quality of awareness to the genitalia and to the pelvis. Whoa. That's just Yeah. Infinite terrains of sensation to explore. Exactly. Exactly. And it's interesting 'cause I think about the work I do with the vaginal canal and like how many of us just think, oh, it's just a thing that's there. Not realize there's these muscles in the front and there's these muscles. In the back and on the right and the left are different muscles. And you can actually explore each part, front, side, back, whatever you can get to know the, like all of the layers in the same way that you can get to know that space between your toe. And and so yeah, it just, it invites it invites a level of playfulness too, and curiosity to the body. That I just love, I love to be with Yes. In my work. I just love to be with the playfulness that we have the capacity for as humans. Yeah. That's so beautiful. It's like being children. I get, it's like, it, when I do my intakes with clients, I always ask about their first introduction to their sexuality and, oftentimes it's, playing with the teddy bear or the shower head or, and it's re reintroducing us to that playfulness as children, yeah. That gets like stomped or shamed or whatever. Yep. But something that's so important, Amina, that you touched on is, it sounds like really authentic consent for you comes from being that intimate with your body sensations and being able to attune to what it is that your body's experiencing. Yeah, that's exactly it for me because I think for a lot of my, a good chunk of my life consent was really rooted in what I thought I was supposed to do. What I thought was the best option, according to whoever is measuring best. It wasn't me, it wasn't my body. And so I would say yes to things that made sense logically, but not somatically. I would say no to things that didn't make sense logically, but might have actually been exactly what my body was longing for. But I couldn't find that. I didn't know where to find that. And yeah, so go, going down the rabbit hole has allowed me to discover that and also get curious about other folks and say okay what does it look like inside of you? If all the if belonging is no longer an issue if, you get to belong wherever you are. What does consent then look like? That is such a huge point because once. One, once a, a nervous system feels that safety and security, I believe it's only then that they can really attune to what's authentic in the body. It absolutely. Absolutely. Beautiful. Amina so Reggie Ray was a big rabbit hole. Yeah. Reggie Ray was a big one. Yeah. And then along your journey, what were the other kind of inspiring or influential experiences that made you really create this vision for a sanctuary for black women and their pleasure? Yeah. One, so there's a saying in the black community that is very common and that is that you are doing white people shit. And so I found myself historically in my family on the other end of that statement oh, I was the first one to be vegetarian. I was the first one to be vegan. I was the first one to, so these things were just like, oh, this is not from our culture. You're doing that stuff that you're picking up over there from being around white folks, Uhhuh. And so that is one thing that is that I want you to hold that while I move into what's next. So i, I start going to workshops and, one day events that are talking about tantra because I'm trying to learn, I wanna figure out what this is all about. And sacred sexuality, I'm trying to expose myself and every single one that I go to, I am at that time the youngest and the absolute darkest person in the room. It seemed like it was something that was not accessible to me or anybody that I knew. I could hear my family, I could hear my friends saying, I'm not going to that white people stuff. That's for you. And I just kept seeing that over and over again everywhere I went, and it didn't matter. I lived in Oakland for a little bit, and even in the Bay where you have all this diversity, it was still the same in Hawaii, it was the same. I lived in Hawaii for 15 years, and with all of the native Hawaiians, all of the brown folks, all of the Asian people that are living there. I would go and it would be all white people. Maybe an Asian here and there, but like that was just the spaces. And one of the things that I know, and I know this because I've worked in marketing. In my muggle world enough to that if I'm, whoever I'm talking to is who's gonna show up? And it is segregation is intentional. It is not happenstance. So you have to actively, Angela Davis says, you, you have to be anti-racist or else you're racist. You have to actively be doing the work to bring in folks that are that have been historically disenfranchised from spaces. And that wasn't happening. I was just finding them 'cause I was nosy and I was trying to figure this thing out. But I also realized that there was a lot that was missing a lot of things that, like cultural competency, that it wasn't even safe for me to bring. I couldn't invite my friends and be like, y'all should come to this thing with me. Because it just, there were little things, little microaggressions. Little, little things where you're like, there's a water reality of black women in our hair and if it's straightened, we're not getting in the water. So having a water ritual with no. Protection for hair or no warning in advance is, or we're all up against the wall now. We're not participating in that. We can't go back to anything after that. We gotta go home and we gotta flat iron our hair. We gotta do all these things. And so it was just like little things like that where I'm like, this space hasn't thought about us being in. And that doesn't feel good to me. And and I want us to have spaces where we feel like we've been considered Absolutely. In the process. Yeah. And so eventually I started hosting my own little workshops. And really speaking to black and brown women. And saying, there's a space for us here and I'm not a guru. But I've learned a couple things and I'm having some fun and let's get together and play. And and that was good. That was fun. And I would have, first, first one, there was like three people. It was great. It was like 30 people. And then they started then people started talking and they're like, oh, amina's workshops, go to these. And I was having a blast doing that. That was really, so that was, but that was what led me into trying to create space, which is being in space, visiting spaces and realizing oh, this is actually not made for me. I could be here, I could struggle to be here, I could struggle to be comfortable, but I'm not gonna open up. I'm not gonna be as wet as possible. I'm not gonna be as allowing, and so that, that shifted things and I started hosting events, and then I moved to Atlanta and started hosting events there and and then it just blew up. It blew up. It blew up. Yeah. Yeah. It goes back to what we were saying, that unless the nervous system really feels safe. And met and attuned to. There's gonna be a, an a, a hypervigilance in the subconscious, and then especially if a tantric kind of event or retreat is a reflection of kind of the microaggressions of the largest society, the patriarchy and the racist kind of structure, then you cannot expect oxytocin to flow and the oxygenation of the blood and like all of the kind of physiological things that are necessary for sacred sexuality to emerge. So if it's a carbon reflection of mainstream society, it's not gonna feel safe. Exactly. Exactly. And I knew that it felt that deeply into my bones. That there needed to be space. I didn't realize how large the demand for that space was gonna be. Yeah. Once I gotta, once I left Hawaii and moved into a city where it's 70% black folks then that changed everything. Let's talk about that. So when you say it exploded, like the demand, you went from like your first gathering of three people to 30 people and then like thinking back now to when you landed in Atlanta and started holding sacred space for the black community. Like, when did you realize, oh man, this isn't just a river, it's like a tidal wave of pent up demand. Yeah. It was really quickly actually, because I was not planning on staying in Atlanta. Oh, wow. I was, it's, time we're back here again, but this was, I was on the plane to Seattle Uhhuh the day that Trump was elected. Huh And when the plane touched down, I turned my phone on and I saw the news and I just said, oh, shit out loud. Yeah, he won and the plane erupted. There were tears. People were, it was a Honolulu to Seattle flight, so I'm very left-leaning flight. And I made that decision that day that I was leaving the country. I was like, that's it. I'm, I gotta get outta here. I can't keep doing this. And so I called my mom up when I landed and said, mom, I'm gonna move. This was like November 4th or fifth, whatever day. I went, by the time I got back, I gave my notice to my job and I finished out the most of the rest of the year with them before I left. For Atlanta to help my mother pack up because she said she was leaving the country too. Oh, wow. And so I was only gonna be in Atlanta for three months to help my mom pack up the house, figure out things, whether she was gonna sell it or rent it out. We thought we'd do look at all these options and see, and I was just gonna be there to support. I land and three days later she's I don't wanna move now. I have chatted out these three months in Atlanta and I thought okay, I guess I'll, if I'm gonna be here, then I'll get a little office in town and I see and start seeing people. And I was fully booked every day for yeah, for the whole three months I was fully booked. Amazing. It was no break. And then I'm doing the events and people are just pouring into the events. This is the first three months where I said, okay, Costa Rica can wait Uhhuh. And I just decided to. To stay. And I, at that point I met my now husband Yes. Also, like a month after I landed in Atlanta. And and so he's watching me have these classes and these workshops, and he's coming to them, he's being my body. And we're, deepening into a playful relationship. But I was very much I am, I'm, I've been solo, poly relationship anarchist. I just come on in for the ride and have some fun and and about six months in, he said to me one night, he said, I just, I want you to teach me how to be as free as you are. And he might as well ask me to marry him. 'cause I don't know. That was probably the moment where I was like, nobody's ever said that to me, Uhhuh. And I felt really seen and just loved in that moment, and I thought. Kind of arrogantly of course I could teach you this. This is Uhhuh. And then I set for the next six months really working on a curriculum. Wow. Trying to figure out like, how do I teach what I've learned over 20 years? How do I do that? I don't know how to do that. What's important, what's the most important in trying to sort all that out? And, reaching out to mentors and friends who develop curriculum and asking for their help and support. And in yeah, in that fall of 2017, I launched the institute with the first class of, which was just was called Conscious Erotic Touch, and now it's called Eero Somatic Touch. We rebranded earlier this year. And and my first group of students were six people and one of them was my now husband. We were already lovers before the studenthood. I don't sleep with my students, but course this was already sleeping with, and yeah. Yeah. And so it was just this very beautiful practice of playing, and I didn't know if it was landing and some of it was, and so I reconfigured and now now, this is 2017 to now, so we're like five, six years later. Seven, yeah. Yeah. Seven, eight years. Yeah. Seven, eight years later. I know, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And so now things are a little more, a lot more structured and we're accredited and we have, we're now working on global accreditation and things like that. So Cool. Yeah. But it started off with just a very loving request and I had never, I hadn't been thinking about, I hadn't, I wasn't seeing myself as a teacher. I was like hosting these events where I was. Technically teaching. Of course. But I didn't feel like I was teacher. Yeah. I felt like I was, leading a yoga practice, but it was just Yeah. Fun, sexy play. And and yeah that, that gentle request. Just really, yeah. Started a revolution, it's it's so great. It was a very simple loving, proposal of sorts, but it look at what came out of that. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I love Amina is it feels like it was a very organic process, because here for 20 years you've been holding space. It's not like it came from like an intellectual, like from books, it came from your life. Intuitive, embodied, somatic experience, of what you knew worked over these, two decades. And then with some tweaks and trials and errors over the years, you just, the structure finds itself. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that's what I realized also was really challenging about teaching, is that I had been in, extreme Aquarius mode where things were flowing and fitting and molding and developing. And I would look around and say, that needs to be moved or that needs to be changed. And what was created was just powerful, beautiful exploration. And I could witness the way that it was impacting folks every day. And that was like fueling my fire. Yeah. Then to try and encapsulate that into a program that now requires some structure has been probably one of my greatest life challenges. I'm sure. I'm sure as an aqua. I totally understand. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I'm used to like this organic flow of things. And honestly I think, in over the years I've had the pleasure, especially recent years in the last really since, since the pandemic, I've had the pleasure to sit with teachers that move at a pace, even in structured in a real structured learning style. Like these are the things that we're learning, but moving at a pace that's felt really settling from my nervous system and from my soul. And that has really also helped shape. Me holding space for others in this work so much. Like how do I teach people to slow down in their love making, to slow down in their approach of the body if I'm teaching class and we're going from module to module so fast. Totally. Yeah. And so like really learning to being a student because I'm a forever student and witnessing teachers move at that pace in this work has also really shaped how I hold space. And I think it's also really offered a bit of, it's like some medicine that was necessary in this work. 'cause so many of my students and clients are coming to me on that little bit of free time that they get from their life. Of course. And if I can't slow down in this space and it feels just like what they're used to. And that doesn't feel good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you're sharing is really profound because we have to walk or talk and we have to demonstrate really by example, the benefits of slowing down and allowing the nervous system to really feel settled and downregulate and feel itself and, allow emotion to come forward when it wants to and sensations to come forward when there's space for it. Yeah. That's really beautiful. And to notice when there's no space, and I think for me, that's been a big part of my work for myself is just like noticing that there's no space for emotion. That I'm too busy, that I'm moving too fast. That I'm placing unreasonable demands on my own self. Yeah. And have left no space for emotional experience. Yeah. And, running an institute and the retreats and, having your clients, you've, you have to really kind of assert boundaries. And I love I remember like one of the first emails I sent you, I got a response right away saying, I love you so much, you're wonderful. And on these days, I will not be answering emails, yeah. It's great. You're, you have to do that to allow for that spaciousness. Yeah, you do. You really do. Because it'll blow right past you. And I'm, I'm, I've, it's, there's also like this chunk of me moving from relationship anarchist solo poly to. Really what feels I wanna say it's still anarchy, but it's still, we're nesting partners and so there's also this like consideration of the space that you're sharing with someone. And then like also my own space and time and all of these things that are, that will just get tossed to the wayside. And that's like the soil from which you are teaching the soil that's nourishing your embodiment that's holding space and, bringing your intuition and creativity forward. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Amina I wanna take the opportunity to ask you, because I think a lot of our listeners are either sexological body workers or hold retreats and are not aware of how. They're they don't know what they don't know when it comes to holding space for people of color. I wanna ask you you've been in, you've been a participant in spaces where you were one or the only, black or brown person. And again, the microaggressions that are reflected in our major society can show up in these retreats. Can you help our listeners understand what do you feel like makes your spaces that are so inviting and allows the nervous system to feel at ease for black women? What are the qualities would you say that are different? Or what are the considerations that are different? Just, immediately I think seeing other people who share your experience in the space relaxes the nervous system. And certainly having a leader. Like being able to empathize and understand your experience as a black woman growing up in this patriarchal society. Patriarchal, racist society is very reassuring. But are there other elements that would be informative for listeners to like research or examine on their own to make spaces more conducive and inviting? Yeah, absolutely. I think I will put at the front of that is that I've had the joy, the pleasure, and the honor of being a black woman my whole life. And so I've been surrounded by black women my whole life and. What other people will have to learn is innate for me. And I say that to say, if you're looking for like increasing diversity, it will start from the top and bringing in somebody to partner with that is a black person or a person of color that is racialized as a person of color. And I wanna say that because a lot of our bipoc spaces, and I enjoy being in them, but a lot of times I'll go in them and I'll still be the only black person. And I'll still be the only person that's experiencing what it's like to be faced as a brown person. Sure. The culture at home might, we might have some similarities and some overlaps there, but what I'm really thinking about is how I'm experiencing the world and how that's impacting. My ability to experience myself at rest and at pleasure. And so that's one of the things is like making sure you have have someone that's there in partnership or in consultation that that has lived that experience of being a black person in the US or in the west or in Canada, wherever it is, because there's such a unique value that brings. And it's something that we have inate. So what, when my, I have white folks that come to my events. I have folks from all walks of life that come to my events and they feel at ease automatically because. The reality of my life has been that I have always been in white spaces. Absolutely. And so I know what that's like. But if you've never been in black spaces, right? If you've never looked around and thought, wow, I'm the only white girl here, or, wow, I'm the only Asian here, right? If you've never had that experience and looked around the room of black people. And there's a lot of things that you're gonna miss. And in, in making space safe, there's a lot of things that won't feel like much of an aggression to you won't feel like violence to you that will feel so violent to us because of the, his story, the historical experiencing of it. And so having that is, I think the biggest thing, the easiest thing. I also come from my grandmother was a sharecropper. She was raised by a freed slave. I have heard these stories and I know what that looks like. I know what it looks like to be a woman over the course of generations. I've said at the feet of my grandmother and my aunties and listen to stories growing up. And so that informs how I move. With other black people because I know what, where our lineage of shame is coming from. Which is different than there are some things that we, that are very much taboo, that are not taboo in other cultures. Right next door. Yeah. Around the corner. And so I'm just that consciousness of the things that I, that we will stigmatize that others might not stigmatize the things that feel normal for us, but not normal for someone else. And navigating that, that is easier because of my lived experience. I and it's easier, I think because I'm, I've lived, I live in Latin America now. I've lived in Hawaii for 15 years. I've been around. Very diverse communities also throughout my life, so that I've also been able to absorb and learn. I've, spent a lot of time praying five times a day and wearing the veil and the mosque. And so I also understand like my family, my mother's side of the family is coming from a very deep southern Baptist ritualistic belief system. And that influences and impacts what a black woman needs to feel safe in a space. Yeah. And also same thing for folks. A lot of black Americans are Muslim, and so they, they're bringing that into the space, having that awareness and being able to speak to that. When I speak about liberation and I speak about all these things that seem, like they are countering certain religious and spiritual practices that might lose us. That might lose black women or black people in general may just be like, this is, this is not something I wanna participate in. I know why, I know how to have that conversation as well in a way that, that allows them to still maintain whatever parts of them they wanna keep. It's very clear in what you're outlining. I wonder also, Amina, like the way black women have been sexualized by our society. There's this, when you speak about lineage, there's also, women were, black people were slaves, but women in particular were used sexually when they were slaves. All the way, Thomas Jefferson, et cetera, et cetera. And, i'm also aware of the history of gy, how gynecology started in America is a really dark history. Yeah. Where black enslaved women were essentially used as Guinea pigs without anesthesia, without, they were just like practiced on by white men. Yeah. So sexualization of a black body, and then of course with black men as well, it's got its own history, and I'm guessing if I was a black, if I was the only black person in a white tantric retreat where we were exploring bodies I would I don't know, I wondered how that would affect my experience and my participation. Yeah. It probably would. I could tell you from my experience, it just limits it. Like you just don't want to. Participate. Yes. And for a lot of reasons, many of the ones that you named, like just the historical reality of how our bodies have been used in in the us in the west not just the US, but in the West. But also in that, like that light of everything that I grew up looking at when I looked at models of vulvas or breast, it did not look like me. I remember just when I was younger, when I was like 13, trying to find my clitoris and looking at the picture. And then looking at mine, it was like I could not find it. It was unidentifiable compared to the picture that I would had access to at the time. And so going to a space where I'm looking at a lot of vulvas that I used to call them porn pussies. 'cause that's what they look like. They look like the perfect little ones that you would see on porn, which did not look like mine. My lips were my, my lips are as full up here as they are down there. And how that can be intimidating to even disrobe. How that could be intimidating. What's acceptable. And this is, we could, there's a lot that could be impact in spaces where where Tantra is being explored. But also body types, right? Like in the black community, a little extra meat on the bones is desirable. A bigger But is desirable. Yes. And when I would go to a lot of spaces, I was also the largest person in the room. And I'm not a big woman. But I would go into spaces and it would be full of very small framed white yogis. And there's something about that makes you say, oh, I don't wanna get naked in here. This Sure. I don't wanna be bare, I don't wanna bear my soul in here. I don't wanna bear myself in here. I don't want that. There's the emotional part of Yeah. So vulnerable. No. Yeah. I'm gonna, what if I have to cry? And then who, oh, like all of this weight is on you. And that all gets to be lifted up a bit in a space where you are looking around and you know that people have a similar experience, a similar body. That they've seen bodies that look like yours, whether it was their mothers or themselves, that we've seen our bodies and we are familiar with that. And we see them not in discussed or not in the way that needs to be changed. And that is really important in the sexual experience. Yeah. Yeah. Really celebrated for the beauty. Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to ask you Amina I saw a Substack article that I hadn't read it 'cause I wasn't a member, but I saw a Substack article that you wrote about, like the need for more black male sexual surrogates. And I wanted to ask you whether this also ties into how black women are underserved, in sacred sexuality and like what prompted you to write that article and what and what it was about. Yeah. The prompt was how many women I have currently as clients who are at a point where they are ready to practice. And outside of with me or with my husband, there's no one like that. There's not enough male practitioners. And so I'm like, there's a waiting list. Like I'm working, I'm trying to find some. Yeah. That was what prompted me in the conversation. And I went to talk about it in social media and what was coming at me with a lot of questions from men that were like, we could do this work. What do you need? And it's a lot of curiosity. I've never heard of this. What is this thing? And so that was that, that led me to just let me write something that's out there in the ether so people can understand, some of the I this languish needs to be in the ether with black men attached to it. First and foremost. And then also there needs, we need more safe. 'cause it wasn't just about black male surrogates. It's we need more safe black male surrogates. And one of the reasons why I really emphasize that is in a culture where black men have been waiting, I, I think of that song from lion King, where I just can't wait to be king. And a lot of this stuff, and this is true for all oppressed people, I think a lot of times when we're fighting for liberation, what we're really fighting for is to be adjacent to power. And so what I keep witnessing in. In erotic spaces are black men who are, who have moved into the space because there is an opening with no training no understanding of consent beyond what they got in high school, which we know what that looks like. It's not much at all. Or college, you, it is nothing totally informed. Consent has not been available to you, so how can you offer it to me? You know what I mean? And so all of these things are also happening where I'm witnessing violence in the erotic space because there is no training. But we we need it too. But there's not enough training. Yes. And so I'm, I wanted to put a call out so that people, so that black men could be aware. And that other instructors that are teaching. Black men, or they're teaching men how to be surrogates or how to be sacred. Intimates can also realize oh yeah, I'm still miss, I'm still not serving black women, because there's still this huge gap in, in, in the work that we, that we're missing and we're not talking to black men, and I know no one's talking because I put up one post up on social media and it, the number of people that reached out to me privately from that post was I was almost overwhelmed by it. Wow. I was like, oh, wow. Wow. This is just, these conversations are just not happening. Yeah. Yeah. And just even, to be honest with you, I didn't even consider. That would that could be such a major issue. But it makes so much sense here. You are a haven for women, for black women to really return and reclaim their sexuality and agency and resource in their life force, and they wanna practice, and if there aren't black male surrogates, like who, what's, where can they go? It's not something that I think the average person considers even in the, sexuality space. Yeah, no, it's, yeah. It's something that I think just gets, laid, left off to the side and in these spaces. That, even in my space, they're so queer. It's like we, we have this inherent queerness in our spaces. That's beautiful for me. But but for my cis heterosexual that are like clearly identifying as heterosexual and would like to be in these practices with a heterosexual male, or a male that wants to have sex with wo women, that is where we're really falling apart at the seams at. And it's it's really, yeah, it's really heavy on me right now. It's like, how do I call more black men in? And also how do I hold that space? Because then once I've called you in, I really feel I get really maternal about the work in a way where I'm like, okay, mom's gonna make sure that this space is safe for everybody. And I wanna make sure that those that are stepping in, especially the black women are putting a great amount of trust on me to say. You, I trust you to make the recommendation. I trust you to make the referral. I trust you to train this person. And so I have, I stay in community with my students because in that trust is also I wanna make sure that we are all, we have ways to navigate thing, issues that come up. We have ways to ensure that we're holding spaces safely as we can. Yeah. We have ways to ensure that we're honoring the needs and the sacredness of this work. Yes. Making sure that's held. Yeah. Yeah. I love for our audience members you had just completed these, this four free day boundaries and consents forum or summit. It's I love it seemed to me like the summit was really explor exploring the nuances of consent. There was one headline I saw about the impact of trauma in accessing choice and voice. These are all subtle things that impact one's sense of agency and consent in an intimate situation that often get overlooked. Yeah. Yeah. I think they too often get overlooked and then we start working on something that doesn't need repair in, instead of actually just working on feeling into the body learning regulation getting familiar with our own nervous system tending to our own needs that, that those things will be so much more simpler than some of the work that we that the healing community tends to do around sex, from doctors to therapists, to everyone has got their own thing that they, pelvic floor therapist, we can do this. And, and at the end of the day, it's like, if I'm not, if I'm not navigating or understanding the impact that even some of the smallest traumas that I've experienced are showing up in my, in the way I get to say yes and no, then all the other work is is very auxiliary. It's not, yeah it's it's like you have to have a foundation to the house before you add higher stories to it. Yeah. If a body doesn't even feel safe, attuning to what is authentic consent, then what is, what do the, all these other things matter? They don't, it really comes down to, the safety and security and authentics consent of the body. I feel like we are, we're coming full circle back to Reggie's somatic descent and really like developing this attuned, intimate communication with one's own body in order to really discover what the authentic consent of the body is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. As it starts so it ends, right? Yeah. As it, that's really at the root of all that is right for me. It's have I set with myself too? See how much of myself is available for this, for whatever this is and if there's any of me that's available. And that is something that comes, that, that is from that practice of somatic descent. Yes. Yes. Beautiful. Beautiful. And Amina, where can people find out more about you and your certification for Somatic sexologists? Yeah, so I'm a TL Tantra pretty much everywhere. A TL like Atlanta's airport code and T-A-N-T-R-A. Wow. Amina. It's just I'm marveling at what you've created, this safe sanctuary for black women and black men to really come into that. Sense of agency and resource and life force that's, that we're born with. That's our inherent right. And everything that you really meditate on, the slowing down, the consent, the somatic descent to really be attuned to what the body's authentic desire is like, it's just so beautiful and so necessary. And, I resonate with it 'cause it's so aligned with my approach and I just, I think it's fabulous what you've created. It's so great that you yeah. That you're holding space for so many people. Thank you. Yeah. I do feel very aligned with your work, so I'm really looking forward to, to not just this upcoming partnership, but to continued partnerships to see your work also just mushroom into our communities as well, because Yeah. There's so much alignment. And I feel that deeply. How is today's interview landing in your body right now? Are there aspects of your sexuality and their expression that feel unsafe to be seen as if they do not belong? And if so, how can you provide that sense of belonging and acceptance to those aspects of yourself? How would it be to seek out containers that reflect your lived in embodied experiences in which your sexuality in all of its expressions would be recognized and celebrated? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Consent, Boundaries & Communication, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Plant Medicines & Sexual Trauma Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/plant-medicine-sexual-trauma-healing/) **Published:** August 16, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can the wisdom and support of plant medicines aid in the healing of sexual trauma? Today, we hear a first-hand account of how the Mother Plant Ayahuasca, psilocybin and cannibus can aid in the reclamation of one’s body, genital pleasure, and sexual wholeness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Plant Medicines & Sexual Trauma Healing # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how plant medicine intersects with sexual trauma healing and the importance of integration with Psychedelic Integration Specialist Salimeh Tabrizi. You’ll learn how expanded states can support—but not replace—embodied healing work. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/salimeh-headshot-circle.png "salimeh-headshot-circle | Rahi Chun") [VibrantLifeCounseling.com ](https://www.vibrantlifecounseling.com/) [PsychedelicAssociation.net ](https://www.psychedelicassociation.net/) [Sexual Healing With Mother Earth Costa Rica Retreat ](https://somaticsexualwholeness.mykajabi.com/costarica) About Our Guest: Salimeh Tabrizi, M.A is a clinical counselor, intuitive energy worker, and plant medicine facilitator, educator and advocate. She supports individuals before, during, and after sacred medicine journeys with Ayahuasca as they step into their soul path and mission. Salimeh is a founding board member of the Canadian Psychedelic Association and the founder and organizer of the Cannabis Hemp Conference and Expo, the largest plant medicine conference in Canada from 2015-2018. She is inspired by the co-evolutionary process between humans and entheogenic plants such as Ayahuasca, Cannabis, Psilocybin, Iboga and San Pedro. She feels grateful to be part of the collective as humanity faces a pivotal point of ascension and has a chance and choice to remember, embody, and take inspired action from love and unity consciousness while anchoring responsibility for Earth-stewardship and protection. With continuous alignment to Source energy and loving support, she feels that we all have the potential to be who we really are, remember why we came here and live loving, healthy, peaceful and joyous lives while helping to herald a new harmonious existence on the planet for all beings. ## What You’ll Learn About Plant Medicine & Trauma Integration $ How The Mother Plant, Ayahuasca, has the capacity to touch into deeply repressed emotions and previously unavailable memories, providing access to healing and an integration of the past with the present. $ How the body, in its intelligence for survival, will keep memories too traumatic and overwhelming for the nervous system at bay, until there is enough resource and support for its integration and metabolization. $ How plant medicines can provide a sense of being held – in order to be with one’s past traumatic experiences – to feel supported in addressing them from within the body. $ How the integration space held after a plant journey can be amongst the most important aspects of the experience. $ How the depth of trust felt with the practitioner holding space, and the spaciousness created for the integration of the plant’s wisdom – are key factors in the power and clarity of the journey. $ How Mother Ayahuasca can be used therapeutically in concert with Gestalt and other practices to systematically clear issues from different chapters of one’s life. $ How Santa Maria, also known as cannabis, can also be an ally in deepening embodiment when ingested in concert with somatic practices. $ How the role of “set and setting” with plant medicines involves the integrity and experience of the space-holder as much as it does the safety of the environment, the potency of the medicine, and intentionality of the soul’s journey. $ How each embodied soul’s realization and connection to our Universal Source is ultimately all that will matter as our environmental and societal structures continue to evolve. $ How Somatic Sexual Healing is the next frontier of seismic change and the medicine needed for our society. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Tantra and trauma-informed sexual healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/tantra-trauma-pleasure-healing/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Trauma lives in the body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Sal Mai tabi to the podcast. S ma has been a devoted space holder, facilitator and integration specialist of plant medicines, as well as an effective ally in creating systemic changes and policy awareness and education about the benefits of the intentional use of psychedelic medicines. How can our conscious, intentional, and reverent meeting with the wisdom of plant medicines support inhabiting the truest and fullest access to our whole body and psyche? As well as our life force. Are there plant medicines that can aid in the healing and metabolizing of past sexual traumas? And if so, how? What does the earth have to tell us? Teach us, and show us about ourselves as stewards of this land? Please be advised that plant medicines were administered traditionally in sacred ceremonies with the deepest reverence for its wisdom, guidance, and healing properties. Please do your due diligence in research and consultation with experienced and trained professionals such as Sally Mae if considering whether you are a good candidate for such an experience. I am really thrilled to be inviting Sally Ma Torey to the podcast today. I've known Sally Mae for a number of years now, and it's always a joy to connect with her. So a little bit about S Ma. She's a clinical counselor with a master's degree in counseling psychology from the University of British Columbia. She's also a certified hypnotherapist Matrix energetic guide and significant to our talk today, a plant medicine integration therapist. And we'll get into her role as a political advocate, an educational ally, and so much more in regards to plant medicines. She supports both individuals and couples foster greater self-love reclamation of empowered embodiment, removing blocks to sharing and receiving love, and manifesting abundance in all areas of their lives. You can read more, you can discover more about her at her site, vibrant life counseling.com. Now she's also a founding member of the Psychedelic Association of Canada, which was founded in 2019, opening access to psychedelics for all Canadians as a human right. Since its inception just a few years ago, they've already successfully worked with Health Canada and representatives from all political parties to support access to psilocybin at end of life and achieve special access program status. They've also impacted legislation for the legalization of psilocybin and psilocybin mushrooms, and commissioned a 2021 Nanos poll, finding that 78% of Canadians support psilocybin to treat end of life patients, and more about the Psychedelic Association of canada@psychedelicassociation.net. As I mentioned, she's been a powerful political advocate and educational ally speaking on countless panels, conferences, and interviews for the accessibility. Of plant medicines for healing, spiritual embodiment, and empowerment. Now, I wanted to host Sally Mater the podcast to invite an exploration of how psychedelics when brought into the healing journey with intentionality and consciousness can support sexual embodiment and the sexual healing journey. Sally Mae, thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to see you. Thank you so much for the warm welcome and the great intro. Appreciated Rahi, and it's always great to be in your company. Oh, wonderful. Sally Mae, I usually start off by asking guests to the podcast about their own journey of sexual embodiment and empowerment. And I would love to, I would love our audiences to know a little bit more about the role that psychedelics has played in supporting your journey and reclamation as a way for listeners to get an insight about the power of plant medicines and psychedelic aids. Yeah, absolutely. So I'll go back to 2013. In February, 2013, it was the first time that I connected with Ayahuasca. And I always say that the salame prior to Ayahuasca and salame after ayahuasca is a very different being. That emerged and I. I, in 2012, I was working as a. Therapist at Family Services. I was going through a lot of very difficult cases. Anything from bereavement, anxiety, depression, addiction, to also, gang violence, domestic violence, sexual trauma. And as a novice therapist, I realized that I was hitting walls and my clients were hitting walls just in the container of talk therapy. And I know many of the listeners can resonate with that. And as an empath, not knowing that I was picking up a lot of energy, I unfortunately started having autoimmune issues. And so that was a catalyst that opened me up to all kinds of different energetic modalities and alternative ways of healing. So anything from reiki to acupuncture to hypnotherapy. And eventually I came across the article on Ayahuasca, and within two months I was down in Mexico sitting with the Peruvian shaman. And so that ceremony, actually, I feel unlocked. The repressed energies that I had around my own sexual trauma at the age of five. And prior to that ceremony, I just had one. I would say I would ha have one emotion, and that was happiness, like a lot of people. But underlying it was anxiety. But a lot of people would see me and they were like, why are you so happy all the time? And I started questioning that as well. So during the first Ayahuasca ceremony, I was able to access this well of grief that I had never. And that was the first safety opening. And then after that, in November, 2013, I connected with my mentor, who I worked with for eight years. And within the safety of the first retreat with him, which was 30 days long, 13 people, we didn't leave the room. We didn't leave the house. This was at Lake Aland. Yeah. Very deep work. I discovered my the memories of my sexual trauma at the age of five. Wow. Yes. And when I work with my clients now, and some of them might have a bit of a, and I'm sure you based on the thousands of people that you worked with, when there's a bit of a kind of feeling of I think something might have happened, but I just don't know exactly. And so the body kept me safe until I was ready and in a safe container to be able to look at it. To answer your question with that background when I started working deeper with ayahuasca in circles, in some of those earlier sessions, ayahuasca literally would remove energy out of my womb. And I was very aware that this was happening. And there was a point in one ceremony where she actually rewired my clitoris 'cause of the Yeah. De sensitization that had happened. The dissociation that had happened with with that region. And it started with that, it really started very clearly and to the point and to the core of take literally shifting energy and taking energy out of my sexual organ area. Wow. That's amazing. Salame. As I shared with you, I feel like in the last couple of years, so many clients seeking sessions it was an ayahuasca journey or some kind of sacred ceremony that either reminded them of their sexual abuse or help them prepare to actually address it. I'm wondering for our listeners when you went down to Mexico, and the memory of when you were five came to you were, was that something you had just blocked out of your consciousness or did you feel like you were aware of it and just not ready to deal with it and Ayahuasca helped you, really prepare you to address it? Yeah. Great question. And I do feel to your point that a lot of individuals are being supported to look at this very deep trauma. I think the sexual trauma is something that is, of course, they say in research that neglect and abandonment are the worst, kind of foundational pieces of trauma. And it's not even physical violence, it's actually neglect and abandonment. This is a lot of Gabor Dr. G mate's work. But sexual trauma I feel is very close to that because there is a sense that. I felt that I was abandoned and neglected that this could happen to me. And so it opened up the floods of so many other emotions. And I feel that what plant medicines do, and in my experience and I've seen it with my clients when I support them in ceremonies, is that the medicine almost holds. There's a gentle, like there's, that there's somebody, some energy there with you now. Yes. And we, yeah. And from your amazing work, and I've experienced your work in that, how important holding and being with is. And I feel that my memories were repressed. And also, like you were saying, I was not ready to see them, so it, it was both. And it wasn't during the IA ceremonies, it was again later on that year when I was working with my mentor. The integration that I was actually able to access them, but Ayahuasca unlocked, I feel the cage that they were stored in. Yeah. There's so many important themes you're touching on. The fact that the holding that you experienced with Mother Ayahuasca when we are held in your experience with, at the Ayahuasca energy and life force or when we're feeling supported and resourced is when the trauma feels safe enough to come forward. When we're, when we don't have that kind of support, whether in a relationship or with a counselor or in other ways, then it, our, somewhere in our psyche knows that it's gonna be too overwhelming to, to deal with. So that holding that you experience is really significant and I totally. Resonate with that. I feel the ayahuasca journeys that I've done, I just feel like the plant medicine is still in me and this is years and years later. And that support is still there. But the other point that I wanna touch upon is this is the significance of the role integration plays, because as you said the first event opened the gates, but it was really in the integration that you felt safe enough for all of these memories to come forward. Can you speak a little bit about your integration process as well as the integration space that you hold for clients? Again, wonderful question. I laugh because my journey with Ayahuasca started 10 years ago, and at that time I felt like. It was a sledgehammer, I did not have a really strong background in, in somatics, for example. In my masters we talked about the wind of tolerance. We did talk about not, like you're saying, overwhelming the system or flooding the system yet with ayahuasca, I felt like that was not an option. It was so intense at that time, and my nervous system just got so blasted and I didn't really have the clarity of deta or what preparation could be prior to going into ia. Now, 10 years later, I feel that we are so much more trauma informed. So much more equipped in not blasting individuals. And that's, that is the angle that I come with my clients is that. We can be gentle, we can be efficient where the ceremonies do not need to be 13 hours long. And and there can, there's a lot of steps actually prior to going into the ceremony. So my work with clients is now one-on-one. I did a lot of work for years in BC and in California, in groups. And I felt that group processes are very powerful and I still, I still see that happening. However I feel for sensitive cases or when people are really focused on cleaning their whole house, their whole internal house. Then I feel the one-on-one support is is Im imp parable and so I appreciate you as well in the way that you. Hold space for individuals. And so with my clients it's three to six months. The beginning sessions are all about going back to that one or one or two trauma memories where I feel the person got disconnected from source. So the moment where they felt that that they're not supported. Wow. That is so specific and intentional. And then the intentionality of really identifying the event or experience where the disconnect happened. That's the focus. And then there's a, an entire three to six month window to really be held and supported in understanding excavation of the remnants of that trauma and integrating into what you had said, pre Sally Mae and post Sally Mae from that 2013 event. Exactly. Because I felt that for me in my therapy journey is that I'm not a fan of prolonged therapy actually. My aim is to support my clients and allies to, to move into the space of complete self sourcing and being able to get into the flow of their intu intuition. Be so connected with source that they are. Living a life of joy and peace and ease. And so for me that's, that is the empowerment piece, that they are ultimately their own healer. And all I'm here to do is just support their higher self coming through the channel and reflecting back to them and having a container where they're able to WhatsApp me or signal me at any time during the three to six months, I didn't always have that. And there were days where I maybe needed support, but I didn't have a session maybe lined up until the week after. And so I find that when it's really focused for three to six months, then individuals like they can feel not only safe, but encouraged to have things come up. Sure. Because they know there's a container for that. And so it encourages the material to come forward. Sally Mae, I wanna come back to your integration because you had shared that's really when the memories came forward. What do you think it was about working with your teacher and master and that integration period for you that what we're looking back now, what were the elements of that integration container that allowed the safety of all of these memories to integrate and metabolize and come through? Yes. So one, I believe it was his own self-work and his depth because I I'm very particular, and I'm sure many people on the call can also resonate with, I'm very particular on who I work with. And I have to know that they're gonna hold a certain level. That's why I, I had a very strong Yes to working with you too in 2018. Is that I. I felt that this work is so deep and that I needed to really because trust was broken for me at a young age, which is like the main thing with sexual trauma. And so I really needed to understand that no matter how deep I was going to go, that this person had maybe even gone beyond and was going to be able to hold the anchor for me. And so a number one, it was his own presence and his own work. Second, I would say that it was spaciousness. I was at the end of my master's program. I was in San Francisco after that. After that 30 day retreat in Guatemala, I actually came back and I was in a very dissociative and in a psychosis actually. And so this is why I also. Think with my clients is that, I'm there with you in case anything like that does happen, it doesn't often. But it could, bring bring some of those pieces out. And so I was in between realms for four to six months. After discovering my trauma and I it was with different, actually allies that I was able to integrate. So not only was I connecting in with my mentor and sharing with him I has, I had an amazing partner at that time who's also holding space. I stepped away from my master's from some time. I was not really working. I spent a lot of time in nature. Had several like deep entry points with LSD. Actually at that time. And and then came back to Ayahuasca after the six month period and so started integrating more in ceremonies, actually. I see. And there was a lot of spaciousness that I needed at that time. And I felt that was very important just to let myself be with whatever was coming up. Yeah you're touching on really important themes again. So it sounds like the depth of work of your master was a key, the spaciousness that allowed for all of this material to come up and the flexibility you had. The wisdom you had to take a pause with your masters and not get distracted to spend time in nature to receive the support of your partner. Like all of those things played a role and at the same time, it sounds and not to underestimate. The well of material that came up for you, that you went into psychosis, in the months following because it is so huge to address that break from our core. Thank goodness that you had the wherewithal to know how to reach out and to support yourself during that period. And I'm sure it's just, it sounds like it's informed the way you're holding space for people's integration now. Ab Absolutely. Yeah. And I will add to that as well dear Rahi, that it was not it was de not A to B and it got very messy at times. And so I always tell individuals like, what you're actually doing need to really look at it from a very deep, compassionate inquiry and space because. I bring a lot of the feminine energy and my teacher he would not call himself a master, and I just like laugh because he definitely had incredible presence, but he was very much about not being, not having gurus or not having any kind of he really instilled that self-responsibility and self-empowerment in the people that he was working with. And so I do the same. I'm like, please do not believe anything I say. This is between you and your work and between the plant medicine that you choose to connect with. And so I wanted to surface that and to say that it did get messy at times and that's why I really am gentle with my clients and we really tune in to what is the next best step. And it doesn't have to be this massive annihilation. It can be. It can be. It can be titrated. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that you're sharing that, that it can be messy. I think it, it almost needs to have space to be messy, because it's re we're really coming out of our kind of rational mind in order to address the unknown and what's been often buried for decades. And it really relies on a surrender of trust, not only to the guidance and wisdom of the plant medicine, but really your own higher consciousness to know and guide this healing journey. You mentioned a moment ago how part of your integration involved LSD and returning to Ayahuasca? I'm wondering, Salima, if you can illuminate for us what you notice as being particular, what, which medicines that you notice being particularly helpful and supportive in addressing, what kinds of issues of embodiment or being disconnected from the body. I mentioned to you that one of my teachers recommends using 0.5 to 0.8 of psilocybin for clients who are, have a lot of mental engagement during sessions. That it really lowers the volume where there's just an enhancement and presence in embodied sensations for our audience members. What have you recognized which medicines for what issues and how? Yeah, great question. Again, and now when I work with clients right away, when we start the, when we open up the sacred container if they're not already working with psilocybin that's definitely the first point of entry that I welcome them to step into. And so very small microdose. And as we start talking about their family of origin, just as you do with clients and start to excavate the layers of blocks of where they're not really feeling themselves and where they're leaving themselves, and what happened in those early years in vitro and up to age five the psilocybin really calms their nervous system. And like you said, just, just takes the mental. Just calms the mind. Quiets the mind. And what I notice is that they start to have that feeling of holding for themselves. And insights just naturally start to happen. And some of them slow down, some of them get more energy. Some of them if triggers come up, they're actually able to cry. I have clients that haven't ever been able to cry, so it's so beautiful with psilocybin to start that process before they come to meet aa. And I wish, again, someone, it's like all the things that we didn't receive, I, we now share with our clients. Yeah. And so then they come into ia. And my IA ceremonies, the way that the medicine comes through and has guided me is that it's a five to six hour journey. It's very focused. And sometimes I even bring in a bit of the psilocybin medicine. Because what that does is that it actually creates clarity for the individual. And they're, and we do gestalt work while they're in medicine. Wow. And so every cup almost is every, is a chapter. So maybe the first cup is about something that happened maybe with their mother or father, and they never got to speak it. Maybe there's a forgiveness piece, maybe there's anger. The second cup can be something as far as their own empowerment. So they'll either get up and have a primal scream. It's very somatic that way. And there's a lot of work that starts to happen with their body. So if there's anything stuck in sacral if there's anything that needs to be released through the throat. And so it's not a usual ayahuasca ceremony at all, but what I received is that the medicine is being wasted in some cases because people keep going back and drinking and they're actually not doing like the work that that can really liberate them. Yes. Yeah, that's incredible. Sime the intentionality with every cup, and using Gestalt or other somatic embodiment practices to really get at what the medicine knows is there, it's like you're working in concert with the medicine, to therapeutically support this purging of what's done. That's incredible. And then, there, there are a lot of medicines that I haven't experienced, like Sassafras and some Pedro, and there's so many. Have you noticed when it comes to embodiment and I'll say embodiment in general, because that encompasses sexual embodiment when you're guiding people to return to their bodies are there other medicines that you feel like are particularly helpful in that journey? Yes. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Thanks for bringing us back to that piece, because for me right now, psilocybin and IA are the main ones that I work with. However, I have immense amount of respect for cannabis, and I'll refer to the medicine in its sacred name of Santa Maria. And I, for me, truly cannabis has been a tantric teacher. Wow. And yes, and not only has it been a devotional medicine for me in regards to dance yoga, any sort of stretching and movement and breath work. But it also has been incredible for hiking. So being in nature or swimming or going into the float tanks. And also with sexual intimacy with a partner, because it, yeah. It's incredible in how it, at least for me, brings me into the body and starts to show me areas where maybe I'm holding tension or I'm not breathing deep enough. And so I have to give a, incredible honoring and respect for cannabis in this way. And I know that we're right at the tip of the iceberg in regards to cannabis and how this medicine's being utilized because there's just so much there. And, cannabis actually came to me, like the spirit of cannabis came to me in 2000 and. 15, and I had a very strong meditation with it. I wasn't ingesting. But it, the spirit came through and said that it was being a abused, misunderstood, misused and even prostituted. And so there is a shift that's happening I feel collectively in the way that we engage with this medicine. And I really do feel it's also an enlightenment tool, just like the other medicines are in that it creates so much understanding of the thoughts. And that a huge purge can happen. We're able to come into the body because I find, and maybe you can relate to this, is that if there are a lot of thoughts, I'm not embodied. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to that and I can attest that is a challenge for a lot of clients when they're on the table is that, is whether it's hyper vigilance or because they've been rewarded by, they've, we've been rewarded professionally by being super analytical or whatever it is. Or, they're just not feeling at home yet in their bodies. There is a lot of mental activity. I think that's the culture we live in. A reflection of that. And I, Santa Maria can really aid in that. It's interesting you say that, Sally Mae, because. I recently interviewed a friend who's a leader in, I guess the world, but particularly in Europe, around supporting people to get really in touch and inhabit their cervixes. And she also shared that cannabis was the medicine that taught her so much about to, about how to develop this. It's almost like the Santa Maria guided her. To the teachings. She is now teaching others around how to disarm the cervix and to develop an intimate connection with the cervix and heart. Already in our dialogue, I think listeners can pick up the important role of set and setting. And I just want to touch upon this because I don't want listeners to think, oh, they can just go out and, try psilocybin or ayahuasca or, like the intentionality and conscientiousness with which you are holding space. And really being so intentional in honoring the medicine and the role and the reverence for the wisdom of the medicine. I think people are hearing in how you're speaking. I wanna be responsible to listeners and just underscore the role that set and setting plays in how the medicine affects us. Yes, absolutely. And I'll share a little bit with the listeners around my experience with you and how how potent that was on my journey of sexual empowerment and embodiment because as I shared with you I needed several years to even be ready for the sexual work. And so I, it was again through a wonderful dear friend of mine who I was assisting actually in their ceremonies in California. And she had worked with you and she recommended. So it was, again, through the guidance of the medicine through another friend that I got connected to you. And at that time I knew that I had anxiety in still in my body. But. And I knew that some of the signs of like the symptom, I say the symptoms, but just some of the residue of the sexual trauma, which was, like you said, an inability to fully be safe and fully land in my body. And of course, like not being able to connect with abundance, which is the root chakra. In the way that I really, knew was possible for me. And I came with those intentions and I, I remember I was definitely not as calm or as grounded as I am now, and there's still so much work to be done there, but and even sexual intimacy to be able to trust and to stay in a relationship long term. I had gone from incredible partners, but there was a bit of a, there was a moment where I was too scared to go to the next. Phase. And not trusting the person. And of course these patterns, I could see them, but I knew I had to go to the next layer of the healing. And so when I talk about setting, when we connected and I came into your space and just felt the energy, being so sensitive and just the way that you. I just have so much respect for you, Rahi. I have to, I wish I said this from the very beginning, and just the kind of work that you do and the space that you hold for individuals and just the person that you are in the world. I feel that, integrity doesn't just end in the medicine space or in our, in the somatic space. It's who we are every day. Whether it's the lady at the cashier in the grocery store, or our partner or a mother, it's like how am I showing up in integrity? I is my own life cleaned up. And so for that transmission to happen, I take this very seriously and of course I'm still learning. But I had never felt trusting to let anyone come near me. And in our work, I didn't even know if it was gonna be possible. But there was an essence, like you said, the trust and surrender. And that like internal will that had been turned on for me through the work with Aya. And I was like, okay, no. This is a yes. And so just the layers and layers that took place in, in our, what I call it was a ceremony. Our work was nothing short than a ayahuasca ceremony for me. It was seven hours long and. It we did primal screen together in your LA home. I asked, I said, is this okay? Can we do this here? And you're like, I'll do it with you. And so just that level of camaraderie and allyship and witnessing. So I have to say that, talk about setting in the most sensitive way of being with people. Oh thank you for reflecting all of that back. Yeah, that really does underscore how the facilitator or the space holder or the integration specialist is an integral part of that set and setting. And to your point, all of the experiences and intentionality and wisdom that they bring and the reverence for the process, for the healing process and the medicine that's all part of the set and setting and impacts the experience and how the medicine d meets us. Oh I'm touched by all of your reflections, Sime. Thank you. Yeah, of course. You're, your I'd love to speak to what, what sounds like the journey that you've been on around non-duality and really about consciousness. I feel like what the medicines invite in us is a reconnection with universal consciousness. And for me, I think part of that reconnection and embodiment of our, recognition of our universal consciousness involves our sexual life force energy. Can you speak to how your journey and how your involvement with psychedelics has led to awarenesses around the truth of non-dual of our non-dual kind of existence and the spiritual journey that this invites for clients or for anyone open. Yeah, absolutely. I feel that for me from the very beginning this was a path towards awakening and a really deep commitment came along with that. Like you were saying, a reverence came along with that and my experiences, and I think everyone is perfect on the path that they're on and whether it's. Healing the body or going through illness or wanting to have more intimacy or just mental health, like clearing mental health issues, whatever it is. I feel like we're perfect on the path and some of us are called to a, a different kind of inquiry. And so for me it was always about the big questions of why are we here? What are we actually doing as humans on this planet? And, being so humbled by the Vedic lineages, the Buddhist lineages, and all these incredible, like the shaman practices of individuals who dedicated their lives and that we can like, pick up a book. I love my the book. I am that it's the one that I go to, it's, one of the sacred texts that I continues to go back to. And, I feel that was an anchor point for me from the beginning, and the medicines have continued to reaffirm that. Speaking about different, I've had experiences with ketamine, with San Pedro, with five M-E-O-D-M-T, of course most of the medicines. And with five MEO being able to feel the hand of God on my back. And I'm sure if listeners have experienced five MEO, DMT is something that's released in our bodies naturally when we die, when we are born, when when are pregnant, when we sleep. But doing times of dreaming. And being able to have a flood dose of DMT was like a, it was, it felt like I. I was dying. And so in that space of connecting to death is like the closest point of surrender to God because you're letting go of this body and this paradigm of being in the dual. And so I remember I was just in prayer, pose my third eye to the ground and I was just crying unstoppable tears of the reverence of what this reality and what this life actually is. And I keep going back to that point. No matter what's happening in my life, I come back to that point of singularity of the practice of non-attachment. Don't add meaning to anything. Don't increase the importance of anything and really come to the place of witnessing. And am I. Even truly witnessing myself and who is speaking in, in, in this moment. And of course, I go back into duality. I think it's an incredible, people can hold the presence continuously. And it's a practice and I feel that it's important that we do this work again, if it resonates, because I really feel that the new earth paradigm or whatever we're stepping into as the new era with climate change and all the calamities that are potentially possible and are actually we're seeing is that we need to pull from the source energy. That is not being filtered through the mind. Yeah. Yeah. I love the reference point. I'll just say the reference of our existence that you continually come back to. That's what's amazing to me about my psilocybin experiences is the very visceral, real awarenesses of that, of the non-dual state that is our existence and that is the truth of our nature. It stays with me and I continue to be re reminded of it and I can continue to reference it. It's not like an experience that's just, come and gone, but it still lives in my consciousness. And, I would like to think in my somatic awareness, I really resonate with what you're sharing and really have reverence for the way you've experienced it and can articulate it. 'cause it's almost trying to articulate the non indescribable, just even it's ironic because in defining it with words, it's making a dual somehow and it's a non-dual experience. Yeah. And listeners, who have experienced that will understand that reference point as well. To understand how accessible these states are with the aid of these medicines. It's mind blowing to me, and I know that's, you've been at the forefront of making it accessible. Whether it was Santa Maria years ago, or psilocybin now, or really all psychedelics. I feel remiss if I didn't ask you, because I know you've been at the forefront of political advocacy and education around making all of these plant medicines available. I, I think it's inevitable that all the data that's coming out by medical institutions and I feel like it's entered mainstream consciousness. I'm seeing like movies and TV shows making reference to, magic mushrooms and so forth. I feel like therapy and counseling, like I said, inevitable that it's, the benefits are just going to become known and mainstream knowledge for everyone. Is that how you see it, or do you see other kind of o obstacles politically and so forth? Yeah, for me, right now, there's. So much trust and surrender in life that I really feel that really whatever is happening is perfect. And that's a, interesting place to sit with because I'm not blind to the hardships and the challenges that humanity is facing. And yet I do feel that. And I'm only, as one of my ayahuasca journeys showed me I'm just an aunt. We're all little ants work, but ants are strong. Yeah. We can work together. And and so in this process of coming into unity, consciousness, cleansing our own fears, beliefs, desires, and as my mentor would very much frame it this way as as traumas that we need to release then, and I feel more of our own light can come through and through this reflection of light, again, a new paradigm or a new existence can come through. But it really rests on, it comes back into self responsibility and how each of us is holding that. So I don't really go to the political as much. I'm definitely more a proponent of, I would say he was like, continue to shine light on your own self-awareness and on your own enlightenment. And from there, let's see what happens. There's not even an attachment of doing, and this is like the non-duality states. There is no doing anymore. I'm just being here with you and you're being here with me. There's no agenda, there's nothing to prove. We are just, really at this place of relaxation and ease and allowing, the natural source energy to come through. And I, that is where I, gravitate towards when I work with individuals and when I gather and when people have done the work. And there's an understanding, it's almost like we don't even need words. And it's why you were attesting to, is that. It's hard to even put what we have access to as far as non-dual, non-dual states and experiencing them in this lifetime through medicines and psychedelics. And after a while, it's really just presence and silence. And I'll also say this dear Rahi, is that I feel that humanity is at a, like many of us, at a bit of a crisis point. And we are it's a bit of a fork in the road. And we either, and when I saw this in one of my deepest I ayahuasca ceremonies where the medicine showed me massive amounts of death on the planet and the calamities of earthquakes and tsunamis, and again, I'm, there's no meaning to it. I'm not attached to it, but I just thought interesting that the medicines is showing this to me and. And in that journey, I got three pieces of guidance. One that enlightened is survival and survival is enlightenment. And my sense is that in order for us to really continue to live and be able to be in harmony with ourselves, each other and the planet and our surroundings, there has to be a new level of awakening that has to come through. The second piece was that there will be a time where it won't even matter what car we drive, where, what, how much money we're making. All of that status is gonna just dissolve because the only thing that's gonna keep us anchored is our connection to God, spirit, love, whatever you wanna call it. And that the third piece is that we can be pulled into fear and that will actually. Probably take us out, whether, and again we're immortal in the sense of being energy. But as far as like being, a human on a path of growth here on the planet, if we're not anchored in our truth and in our center and have done the work to be able to do that, we will go more towards fear and rather than love and truth and e equanimity. So for me, it's wow, we have this incredible opportunity on the planet for awakening, and we are devoted to this. So what does that really, truly look like moving forward? And I love to hear your thoughts and feeling because you've de you feel, is coming through at this time. Collectively and personally. Yeah. You know what's coming up for me as you share this is the way you hold space for your clients in encouraging the self responsibility. Like you are part of the set and setting and you're really empowering clients through the medicines to do their own work, to find their own answers, to really be embodied in their own resource. And, I think that is the best preparation for what is to come, as you said, like all of these kind of external. Kind of material structures are going to fall, they're gonna fall away. It's not sustainable. Like our planet's not sustainable, in America we have so many, the healthcare system's not sustainable. There's so many things that are not sustainable. And the only thing that is a sustainable is our own resource and connection to our source. And it makes sense to me that is how you are holding space for your clients. Because whatever the timeline is that's the only, that's the most important thing that's gonna matter. And those of us who are on the planet at this critical juncture, I believe. In some way chose to be here at this critical juncture. And so that is the invitation for us here. Now, we came here at this pivotal juncture to make certain choices to be of service in certain ways and to align with certain tr universal truths. And so I think it's a very individual practice of discernment moment, up to moment of looking at the identities we've constructed to get our needs met, in whatever societal structure and how we can let go, how we need to let go of those identities because they're not gonna matter at a certain point. And what's really gonna matter is all that's gonna matter. And what I love about plant medicines and psychedelics is it really teaches us that in a very visceral, real awakened way. And I'm always curious of how I can support clients in, ways that really resonate with their truth. And that's why I am just fascinated by all of the potential benefits and synergistic alignments that psychedelics can bring to somatic sex, sexual embodiment and education. Yeah. But beautifully said. Absolutely. And I feel that I thank you. And I feel that the next wave of the healing that's going to come, because, cannabis was the first wave and it really allowed for support and a new kind of discussion and engagement with health and on wellbeing and understanding our body. And it shattered the medical system in, in some ways, cancer pro for cannabis, for cancer protocols, for ms, for Alzheimer's. It's just the list. Continues to go on. Then psilocybin came in and, ayahuasca has been there and of course continues to move globally. And I also feel the next wave that you've been on the front lines of is the sexual somatic healing. Because right now a lot of, my clients are working with desires and fears. And at the root of fears, as is death. And our root is our connection to ourself and our planet. And so I feel that a lot of people are going to, 'cause we don't. Like right now, psychedelics are definitely more talked about, and like you said, they're in the mainstream, but when was the last time that we sat at a table and maybe within our circles, this is very common, but where we actually say like, how is your sexual health? Are you connected with your sexual energy in this moment? And what are you doing to ground it? What are you doing to work with it? What are you doing to, yes. Activate different energy centers, that discussion is not in the mainstream yet. So I feel like the next wave is gonna be sexual somatic healing, and then also frequency healing. So a lot of work with electromagnetic parts of the body and magnet therapy, alkaline ways, and the more we clean our bodies to the highest frequency, I feel then we're going to be able to take care of our earth. In that same way, because if we're toxic of course our reflection is gonna be toxic. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's a call to everyone listening to bring these conversations to your families and to the dinner table tonight. How is your sexual frequency, mother and father, and sister and brother, and Yeah. Let's do that today. Let's do that as a collective audience. But it's so true. It's so true. I feel like our sexual life force is our life force. That's why I really resonate with DAOs teachings that don't even distinguish sexual energy from life force energy. It's our vibrancy and it speaks to our frequency, our intuition, our creativity, our inner knowing. Salima, I feel like there's, there, there are more tangents we can start to, to ride the waves on. But at this juncture, I'm gonna thank you for being who you are for holding such an incredible space not only for your clients and for your communities and tribes, but really for education awareness and for accessibility, to these psychedelics and plant medicines. I know it's been a passion and a purpose for you for a long time. And PI mean, end of life, psilocybin accessibility. Wow. That's just an incredible, the new neural pathways that are available at that juncture. When people need it, it's wow. The work you do is incredible and the way the light comes through you is incredible. And I just really bow to you and thank you so much for being here. Oh, right back at you. Thank you so much. Deep out you too. When I came and had the two ceremonies with you, I'll never forget I went back to Vancouver and every single one of my friends were like, what is so different about you? You are so vibrant. You're you're shining, you're glowing. And I went to each one of them and I was like, you won't believe what I did. And for me it was an incredible act of courage. And so thank you so much for, your space holding and the, it's nothing short of alchemy that happens in, in your curation and as you're teaching others. And as we're learning more and more in this regard, I I look forward to having, yeah. More times of connection and discussion. Thank you for your. Devotion. I keep saying that, but your commitment and your devotion to the path and yeah. We're all in this together. So it's it's an exciting time. It's a blessed time and I'm so grateful for the medicines and really will do, yeah. What I can to decrease the suffering. Or help support others in their suffering because yeah, it's not necessary. We we can, our birthright, I feel as humans is to live a healthy and happy and joyous life with others. Every being on this planet deserves that. So yes, holding that well strong. So for our listeners, I will have Sally May's website link vibrant life counseling.com, as well as the psychedelic association.net for people to learn more. And Sally, may I look forward to seeing you in Costa Rica. Absolutely. Can't wave Rahi. Have a great rest of your day. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening --- ### [Sexual Surrogacy & Sacred Intimacy: Healing Through Connection](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-surrogate-sacred-intimacy/) **Published:** March 2, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Andre Lazarus is a Somatica Sex & Intimacy Coach, a Sexual Surrogate, and Sacred Intimate. He shares the distinctions in - scope of practice, boundaries, and common sexual issues resolved - that he facilitates in each of these roles. It’s a unique soul that’s drawn to hold space for any one of these sexual healing modalities. And an extraordinary life’s purpose to develop a realm of expertise in all three. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Sexual Surrogacy & Sacred Intimacy: Healing Through Connection # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the role of sexual surrogacy and how structured, conscious intimacy can support healing. You’ll learn how relational experiences can restore trust, connection, and embodied safety. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Andre.jpg "Andre | Rahi Chun") [www.coming-closer.com ](https://www.coming-closer.com/) [https://www.somaticainstitute.com](https://www.somaticainstitute.com/) [https://www.surrogatetherapy.org](https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/) About Our Guest: Andre Lazarus is a Somatic Intimacy Guide who offers space-holding for a wide range of services via his training and areas of expertise as a Somatica Coach, certified Sexual Surrogate, and Sacred Intimate. Having come from a family of health care practitioners, Andre has always had a sense of service, serving in the Marines as a young man before offering his natural gifts for removing shame around sexual exploration, helping to open up sexual desires, and healing old wounds around abuse and trauma. His journey of taking ownership of his own sexual power and authenticity involved his realization that he is multi-sexual, and serves to empower others, singles and couples, to realize their authentic sexual truth and its empowered expression. ## What You’ll Learn About Sexual Surrogacy & Intimacy Healing $ How being raped by a woman at age 19 was both a fortunate and unfortunate experience informing sensitivity, sexuality, and how he holds space for clients. $ How his work and life’s purpose as a sacred intimate, felt in his early years, has informed his professional and personal journeys. $ The scope of his practice and boundaries as a Somatica Sex & Intimacy Coach and how it was during his training that his interest was piqued to become a Sexual Surrogate. $ Common examples of issues explored in Sexual Surrogacy, and the triad model of working in concert with the client’s therapist. $ How these differ in boundaries, scope of practice, and common issues addressed than his work as a Sacred Intimate. $ How he navigates keeping emotional boundaries with clients clear with his personal intimate relationships. $ Andre’s vision for a healthy sex+positive society. ## ## This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on Erotic Embodiment Explore more on the [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How somatic consent and touch awareness transforms intimate relating ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How The Wheel of consent informs embodied boundaries and supports attuned lovemaking ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/wheel-of-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How erotic sovereignty and embodied power leads to greater trust, safety and loving](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [The principles and practices for healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Andre Lazarus is a somatic, a sex and intimacy coach, a sexual surrogate and sacred intimate. He shares the distinctions in scope of practice, boundaries and common sexual issues. Resolved that he facilitates in each of these roles. It is a unique soul that's drawn to hold space for any one of these sexual healing modalities and an extraordinary life's purpose to develop a realm of expertise in all three. I am really excited today to be inviting Andre Lazarus to the podcast. Andre is a very dynamic, special embodied human soul that I've been getting to know in this last year. I just think it's really special that he's on our planet doing the work, the sacred work that he's doing. Let me share a little bit about Andre. He's a somatic intimacy guide, and within that encompasses so much. He comes from a family of healthcare practitioners and has always had a sense of service having served in the military and the Marines as a young man. And after a marriage and consensual non-monogamous relationships, Andre learned he has a natural gift for removing shame around sexual explorations, helping to open up sexual desires and healing old wounds around abuse and trauma. He has since been certified as a somatica sex and intimacy coach, a sexual surrogate. As well as a sacred, intimate, and we'll get into all of these. And the distinctions. His journey of taking ownership of his own sexual power and authenticity involved his realization that he is multi sexual and serves to empower others, singles, couples to realize their authentic sexual truth and embodied sexual power. Andrea, I'm so happy that you're here joining us today. I'm happy to be here. Rahi. Thank you for the beautiful introduction. What were some of the key influences either in challenges or breakthroughs or realizations that you feel like have informed your really embodying and owning your sexual truth today? There's so many moments, just as you were asking that kind of two part question. So many moments in my life that I've found were pivotal in my discovery, and we could talk for like a, I don't know, a day or two just on the origin of me, so all of that. But I can do a quick. Background, just where I came from and growing up younger I felt like I had a huge capacity in my heart for loving. Multiple people, multiple genders. And while when you're young and you're in those five to 7-year-old, like years, you have sometimes multiple girlfriends, multiple boyfriends, maybe both. And there's this idea that parents say, oh yeah, it's a phase. It's something that you just do when you're that age and you grow out of that. And looking back now, I realize I don't think I ever grew out of that, and I feel it was such a big part of my earlier. Understanding of my capacity and understanding for connection and love. So that's where it really started when I was like having all of these beautiful connections. And obviously when you're that young, you're not fully understanding what sexuality is and what that manifests but just being close to individuals wanting to share. Their experiences, share. My experiences with them started very young, and as I got older, in my teens, in my twenties, I was really starting to understand that it was just a fundamental part of who I wasn't a phase, it wasn't something that. I felt like was not like instilled within me. And I think I fought it quite a bit actually. As I was dating, individual, mostly women, because as a young man, understanding. There was this possibility of loving multiple genders, multiple people, just wasn't something I was taught. It wasn't something we were taught in school. And my parents, while they loved me, and they provided a landscape of understanding sexuality, understanding relationships, not really constricting me on what I could do or who I could see. But also their knowledge was limited on understanding open relationships, these different types of sexual orientations. So a lot of it was self discovery. And my own education of where do I go from here? And honestly, I feel like I didn't have the. I didn't have the greatest role models when it came to relationships in my teens, in my twenties. It was the friends around you and in that I realized I had to go deeper into myself and into my own self-exploration because it, if no one else was gonna guide me, I had to guide myself fast forward now into my late thirties, almost 40 through these different trainings that you mentioned through mentorship through my beautiful consensual, non-monogamous relationship with my partner of nine years. That puts me where I am today and those, some of those pivotal moments were some deep shadow work. Understanding the aspects of me that I needed, maybe some psychedelic help to fully comprehend. I still do go into those practices, but that's really how I. Have shaped where where I currently am through my own self knowledge, and then also the people around me that I've chosen to help guide me on my journey. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah, it's so cool that you have really maintain that nature that you so reveled and loved and came so organic to you as a kid of just loving indiscriminately. It's like everybody comes in different genders and forms and you just had a love for everyone and it's so great that you were able to keep in contact and be in touch with that nature. On your website, coming closer.com. In your bio, you share about a violation that happened when you were 19, and you described it as being fortunate or unfortunate. I'd love to know I'd why, how, why you describe it that way and what your journey was, because I'm guessing the journey to healing. From that violation has really informed your sensitivity and understanding with clients because so many of our kind of mainstream population and certainly the clients we serve are healing from past traumas and specifically violations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm happy to share. And like to your question around like, when I say fortunate or unfortunate, why I use both? Because in my body, in my understanding of consent of a healthy dynamic between one, two, or multiple individuals, there is a desire for safety, a desire for connection, a desire to be able to feel comfort in the physical, emotional, spiritual intimacy bond. Yes, and I say unfortunate because when. There is a violation as you mentioned and in my violation, I was I was raped for my first penetrative sexual experience by a woman that it's unfortunate that occurred for me or that occurred with anyone that I believe. There's a place where with enough education, with enough knowledge around how to understand someone's sovereignty in their body that we can work to prevent and maybe might be very ideals of me, but eradicate, non-consensual acts such as this. But it happened, it was something that took place. So that's what was unfortunate. I say fortunate because we were talking earlier about those pivotal moments in lot in my life. I feel like it spawned everything and every element of who I am today in my understanding of my own sexuality, of my understanding, of how I interact with my partner. With lovers, with clients. And sometimes it takes moments of tragedy and moments of unfortunate events to really light a fire in our discovery of ourselves and that really ignited me and that's why I was fortunate because. I don't know where I would be today or how I would be possibly interacting with people if that didn't occur to me. Yes, there might have been more moments in life where I would've had awakenings and possibly my own times where I could have been that perpetrator. Just from, again, the knowledge that were given specifically as men and how we interact with women. There's not really a lot of education around that, i, I could have been in more precarious situations myself, so that's why I say fortunate because it provided the landscape of learning and unlearning and really catapulted me into the work that I do today. Yes. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that, Andre. It's really clear how it was unfortunate because it is traumatic to the body to be forced into something that it's non-consensual. And it's really informed your journey since and the space that you're able to hold, the sensitivity that you do bring to, and really, it's a wisdom that the body. Could only have from experiencing something that, you can now have such compassion and empathy and understand how to hold space to resolve that in other bodies. So let's get to I don't think I've ever met someone who's a Somatica practitioner. A sexual surrogate and a sacred intimate, it's quite the trifecta. I, for our audiences who don't know the distinctions of the three, I would love to, I have so many questions about all three. Did becoming a somatica practitioner pique your curiosity about becoming a sexual surrogate? And then you realize, oh, I'm limited here, so I wanna be a sacred intimate first of all, let's, if you could just define for our listeners. Yeah. And distinguish like the parameters and differences of each of those three. And then part two, if you can describe what led you to becoming trained in each. Sure. So I think I'll answer the second part first just to keep it, keep all of the pieces together in my mind. Cool. And as you said, we could have an entire podcast just speaking on one of these elements rather than, and happy to come back and dive deeper. Yeah. I believe the sacred, intimate work has been and. At least as right now in my mind, will always be the most sacred piece and the most important aspect of the work that I do, and also the work that I've been doing the longest. I was doing that work before it was actually work, before I was actually getting paid for this work. So during that journey in this. Sacred intimacy, this bonding that I was having with lovers friends and now, with clients as well. I was wanting just more knowledge around ways to. Interact with individuals and different therapeutic modalities. And a friend turned me on to the Somatica Institute which is where I received my certification for Somatica informed coaching. And during that time while I was in Somatica, someone mentioned. Surrogate partner therapy. So I actually didn't know much about surrogate partner therapy until I was, almost finished with my time at Somatica. And then as I was, and this will go into the first part, and as I was thinking about the work that I do, realizing that. Everyone is at a different point in their journey. Yes. And everyone's going to have a different comfort level on how deep they can or possibly will go with a practitioner. So that's why, as I was thinking about. Somatica like somatic coaching, my sacred intimate work, and then surrogate partner therapy, I realized they all have their unique offering. Yet they all also coexist on the same realm of what is intimate connection to oneself and others. So that is the journey. And then the difference in the three. So I'll start with somatic coaching. So somatic coaching can be done virtual, it can be in person, and these are sessions with a single individual, with couples, with, multiple. People in a dynamic. I know we've mentioned single and couples, but there's a lot of open relationships that have many other definitions and also many other number of people. In that it's an embodied way somatic embodied embodied way of learning how to. Connect with one's intimacy to themselves. And others and working through various goals that clients might be coming to me with. And it's a hands-on. It can be with consent. Hands-on experiential coaching while we will talk about things, we will also put them into practice. And I, as the practitioner might interact with the client or clients, or I might provide techniques and tools for those individuals to practice on themselves or with others as well. With Somatica with, through that training, there are limitations in how far physically you can go with clients. Clothes will stay on, there's no kissing or touching of certain erogenous zones. Yes. Which include the genitalia, correct? Yes. Yes. Which has a beautiful place for. Certain clients who have boundaries on what they feel like they can go into with a practitioner. Which is why I enjoy having that offering because it allows space for people to start their journey or go as far as they need to in order to help with their healing journey. That they're on with the limitations and bounds of what is that particular offering. And then I'll talk about surrogate partner therapy. So I was trained through ipsa. And IPSA is based out of Los Angeles. And Dr. VNA Blanchard is the primary trainer for that offering and with surrogate partner therapy. There is a triadic relationship that occurs between the client, the therapist that the client is seeing, and then the surrogate partner who is, that's my position in the triad. So with this. The client has to still be connected to and seeing their therapist while also seeing me as a surrogate partner. If for some reason the client no longer wants to see the therapist. Then we would have to pause our work together until they found another therapist to fill in the triangle. And I see this is very much an in-person offering. In-person therapy. It's very much geared towards sex education, helping individuals work through certain dysfunctions. Shame trauma. And it's it's something I also hold near and dear to my heart when it comes to how I work with people. And also fits in a certain realm for clients that feel comfortable going into a certain space. And in that space, it goes beyond the bounds of what would be somatic coaching. There is also still in my experience, certain limitations to where that work can go and all. Also how often that work can happen. So that's where sacred intimacy comes in. And sacred intimacy is, yeah. Can I just ask you to specify what you what are those limitations? With sexual surrogacy work that you just alluded to? Yeah, so I feel with it's more the realm of what the work is and the certain clinical fashion that surrogate partner therapy is. So there's more of a structure to it, and also the individuals who would be seeking out surrogate partner therapy. Might not be, and I can go more into it when I talk about sacred intimacy. Might not be best suited for sacred intimate work because where they're at on their journey. For instance, someone going to a surrogate partner might be someone who is a very late in life virgin, who also. Might have a lot of trauma around web partner might be something. Sir, picking up our conversation. It's a threesome. Yeah, I like that. Thank you Sirius. Yeah. So in that there's, certain individuals that I've worked with that have taken sometimes weeks, if not more than a couple months before they felt comfortable even allowing me the opportunity to touch them. Touch their shoulder, touch their hand, and their goal might be to get to a place where they can have a fully embodied penetrative experience with a partner or a future partner. So obviously that's going to take a lot of time to get to that where that differs and where there's limitations is in sacred, intimate work, there's more place for individuals who have perhaps maybe a little bit stronger of a grasp on feeling comfort in touch, feeling comfort. Going into an intimate space because with my sacred intimate work, at least the way it's structured, these are full day overnight sessions, so also embodied similar to surrogate partner therapy. However, if I'm going to be working with someone for a day or a night, then. It wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't be the best to their best interest if they are still unable to even allow myself to like physically touch them, to spend time with me in that offering. So that's why I found all three of these to be so beneficial because as I mentioned with people at varying levels of their journey. I also can provide my experience, my input on where I feel they might best be suited. While sacred intimacy is where I do most of my work there are individuals that are more suited for surrogate partner therapy. There are individuals who are more suited for somatic coaching and eventually they might want to. Stretch or go deeper into what their limitations were, and then be able to go into varying levels. But generally, once a client is in a certain bucket of either being a surrogate partner client, a sacred intimate client, or a coaching client, most of the time that's where they'll stay. There are times, where. A sacred, intimate client could move into what is coaching or a surrogate partner client over time might move into a sacred, intimate client, but generally they'll stay within those realms. Okay. Great. Yeah, thanks for that. Very clear distinction. You know what's really wonderful is you you're offering the full spectrum of, what a client may need and, from close on. But body-based, experiential experiences. So the body gets new imprints of what's possible, creating new stories in their body, all the way to sacred intimacy where, it can be full on fulfilling a fantasy or, there, there aren't that kind of limitations, so it's really a full spectrum. Yeah. But what's in common with all three is they're all somatic. They're all body-based. They're all about creating new imprints. Somatically so that it replaces the old stories, whether it's replacing old trauma patterns or creating new imprints of behaviors to empower them. Yes. I wanna ask you, Andre in regards to sacred intimacy are there any boundaries or parameters that you have? Does it depend on the client? But how does that work as far? 'cause I'm sure people are wondering, wow. Yeah. It's a free for all, there's, this is great, but are there boundaries and parameters that you have? Is it based on the client? And if you can describe your screening process. Sure if you know regarding your clients. Yeah. I'm happy to share that. First to answer your question, yes, there are boundaries. There are always going to be some form of boundary not just for the client, but also myself. There are things that I feel very equipped and skilled at to provide, and then there will be things that someone might bring to me and I might suggest that there might be someone else more suited for them. In whatever their pursuit is. And I do that not to, push clients away or to ever judge what a client might be desiring. But I also am aware that I'm a human being and I have my knowledge base. And when I feel as if someone might be in need of something more than I can offer, or looking for a certain skillset that I might not be masterful in, I feel very confident in being honest in that. So for instance. I might work, I often bring in Shaba kku to my work as a sacred intimate, and I also realize my limitations that I am not a skilled rigor in suspension. So someone wanted to come to me and say, I want, I am desiring this very. Tightly held, nurturing, embodied experience of being fully wrapped in multiple rope suspended on high. I would say I have limitations in what I can offer you. And I know other individuals who might be better suited to provide this for you. So that's just an example. But when it comes to screening I also want to make sure that the individual who I'm working with has a good grasp and understanding of what boundaries are. And can communicate to me that they understand. That there can be a yes and a no when it comes to the way that they would interact with someone else or me. It's a fundamental vetting that I do because I want to make sure that this person understands that they have complete. And utter control in the experience that we will be going into. That even if in the experience I am called upon to be this dominant individual holding the space of a submissive who's surrendering to my will, and that is the desire in their healing journey. I still want to make sure that they understand just how much power they have. Actually the ultimate power to say no, to stop something when they no longer feel safe or feel like they can fully understand what's happening to their body, to their psyche. I've been with a client who have a full blown psychedelic experience, completely unaltered with any substances. I don't work with any substances in my work. But they still had a psychedelic experience. So I had to, rather than continue on in the journey that I was doing with them in a physical space, I had to switch my focus to grounding, to bringing them back. To a place where they felt safe in their body, where they felt like they were had control. And while they found this psychedelic experience to be beautiful and they didn't want they didn't want to stop or to slow down. It was a judgment call for me to say this was something that was I wanted to make sure we were still on board on the same page. Vetting and screening is, essential with anyone I work with. And I feel very I feel very confident to say that I have turned down clients because what they were desiring was something that was outside the bounds of what I could offer, or that there might be someone else better suited to provide them that healing. That healing work. Yeah, that's really clear. So what I'm hearing, Andre, is that not only do you wanna make sure that your skills and services are aligned to meet their intention and their desire, but you wanna also for your safety and for theirs, make sure that they have the capacity to really assert their voice and their boundaries and consent during a session. Absolutely. You've shared your intake form with me and it's incredibly thorough. And it's. It's really fascinating and fun. It's a great questionnaire for every, for anyone to go through, to like really inquire about their deepest desire, about their deepest the curiosity and explorations. But yeah, within that you have a really clear picture of what their intention is and what their capacity is and what they're looking for. I want to thank you for saying that. Yeah. No, it was, I was very impressed. It was really cool. I also wanna say Rahi, that you also I'm a constant student. I am always learning. I'm always trying to understand ways to better. Connect with individuals in this work and you provided some really great feedback in that form, which I have gone ahead and actually modified certain questions in that form. So thank you for your help and, I share that so people understand that this isn't something that I just, I have a blueprint of what I do with every client, and it's this methodical, phased approach. It is unique to everyone that I work with, and I am always. Re-looking at the way that I am working with someone to include the way that I'm gathering information. You are, you're a big part of that, so thank you for looking at that form. Oh yeah. You're so welcome. I was happy to do that. Yeah. It's important that we support each other in this work for sure. Absolutely. Every client is so incredibly unique because every, every embodied souls. Sexual history is so unique. This may seem like a weird question, but I, I feel like so much of what we do is very, it's like dropping into the space of listening for what wants to happen like what's moving energetically. And I wondered whether, people who are called to this work. It's such a unique calling. Apart from growing up in a family of healthcare practitioners, Andre, and your own personal journey, do you have a sense of past life, sacred, intimate, like that kind of a thing? Have you ever explored that because it is such a unique calling, sacred calling. I think it's a, yeah. Yeah. It's an incredibly it's incredible honor and privilege, but it is such a sacred calling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that you brought that up because the first, the short answer is not enough. I have not explored it enough, and it's something that I. Absolutely believe in. It's something that I recall through Dream through more deepened psychedelic exploration, that there are many versions of me that came before me and perhaps are, living, alternate lives in my current present. And I have a sense that there is some aspect of. Healer protector. That has been a part of my journey. And there's still a lot that I could. Probably go deeper into in that discovery and I just haven't had time or thought to go into that. But you're not the first person to ask that and which means that it might be that time for me to like really really go deep into that intentionally. Yeah, that would be really fascinating. And, I would I would like to presume even more insightful and empowering to really understand the lineage, whether it's cosmological or genealogical that. Like you're following a lineage of sacred sexual healers, and that's really powerful. It goes back to, the time of Jesus and beyond. Totally. It was an ayahuasca experience for me in Peru that guided me to this path. And since then different psychedelic experiences have definitely. Shown glimpses of that powerful lineage that you know, that we are very privileged to, to follow. Amazing. Andre, I wanted to ask you, 'cause I, I'm thinking listeners here are really, learning about being a sacred, intimate, sexual surrogacy somatica coach. I'm guessing some are wondering how do you navigate keeping your emotional boundaries? Yeah. It's probably a common question, but how do you navigate, keeping your emotional boundaries with clients and with your personal relationship. Yeah. Has it been a journey? Has it, is it pretty clear? Has it been clear from the beginning? Has it been like a navigation through the years? I can say, yeah. I'd say very as I think about it, it's been very clear for me in my journey. Doesn't mean that it doesn't come with its challenges and times of understanding and questioning, but. The way that I describe it, and I'm also learning on how to best describe this. I tell my partner that I am, I speak much better in the language of body connection than I do with my words. I wouldn't say I'm the greatest wordsmith in the world. That's definitely her her mantle. But the way that I. Connect with people the way that I just in general, but then how I am able to understand and vary the ways that I connect with my partner, vice lovers, vice clients, and being able to, in a way, compartmentalize those yes aspects of my life. Yes. Has in a way felt. Quite natural to me. And I say that as humbly as I can, and still there's just an understanding of certain societal. Like views on what this work is. And also how we connect with whoever our primary partner is and who we connect, how we connect with lovers and the different like nuances in between all of that. While I might have a. F understanding and a grasp on the way that I'm able to manage the way that I connect and feel emotion, and feel physical just physical adoration for varying levels of individuals. In some view, someone might see the way that I am or the way that I interact as. N not fully, like understanding every aspect of what it's like to be someone who interacts with me. So while I might feel like I have a grasp on all of the different varying forms of my intimate connection, someone might see it as being uncaring or someone might see it as perhaps, not fully, fully allowing myself to let go into love, into connection. That in a way I'm holding back in order to make sure that I keep these components where they're at. So I, while I understand that piece, when I share that when I am with someone, whether it be my partner. A lover, a client, and this is why I'm always trying to find the best way to communicate this, but there is nothing else that exists in that moment except for that person. And when that moment concludes, I am able to shift my energy and focus to create. A new moment with someone else where they are the only person in that moment. And I feel like that's why I am so good at what I do. Yeah. Because it's not a game for me. It's not a, it's not a performance. When I am connected to that person, whether it be in work or in life, everything else stops. And it's just them. I get that. I so get that. It feels to me like I'm reminded of what you described your experiences as a child really love. You're like your nature is to love. And it sounds to me like your language is really around tactile sensate experiences. Of your whole body as well as intimate connection that is your language. It's like the music that you're here, that your body is here to play. And I can totally understand how the compartmentalization, it's almost like second nature. It just happens. It's like you're, you, yes. Your being knows what the nature of this dynamic is, and it's not like you're holding back, you're fully present. But it's within this understanding of what the dynamic is is all about. Absolutely. And, but it's still sometimes tough for people to fully understand and comprehend and while I would say a younger version of myself felt a responsibility to explain or overexplain that that understanding so that people just, got it. I've also, just as I grow older, as I gain more wisdom from those around me, from my support network, I also realize it's not my responsibility that I can only provide as much information as I can, but it's not my job to convince anyone to. Understand or believe the words that are coming out of my mouth or the emotions that I'm feeling. And all that I can really do is believe in myself and hope that others will, that'll be okay. That the, they'll just, sure they'll take what I say as as my truth. Yeah. While. That's why I say it's sometimes easier said than done to explain, but actually living it, actually feeling it, it comes very naturally to me. Awesome. Awesome. By the way, at, earlier when you were talking about the ChAARI. And the intricate, tying up that you do. And I was really getting turned on, man, that, that sounds juicy. No I thank you for sharing that first. And yeah, it's, it is, it's a beautiful it's a beautiful element of what I put under the umbrella of bondage. I, I also, in my work specifically in sacred intimacy, I definitely work in the elements of the BDSM realm. Bondage is a big one of that, and while shibari, kiku is only one way that you can, constrict someone's movement there's a lot. You don't even need it. You don't even need rope. You don't need a tool. These right here, your hands are enough to pin someone's arms against a wall, to allow them to feel what it's like to push against someone else, constricting them, but then when you're able to release and show them just how much power they have. Can be a healing moment in itself. So you don't actually even need rope to create a really beautiful healing bondage experience. But shi is. An art. It's an art form. It's an art. It's gorgeous. Yeah. There's so many people around the world who are so talented in it. So I'm, that's a skillset that I'm continually growing and learning in and wanting to just understand more myself. Cool. Cool. Field trip to Japan, man. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Yeah. Right on. Right on. Andre, lastly, I, I wanna ask you this, and it may seem like a a simple question, but I'd love your perspective because I feel like you really have such a evolved and positive view on our sexual natures and empowerment and embodiment. What is your vision for a healthy sexual society? Man, you just tossing up those easy questions there. I yeah. Yeah. It's a huge one. It's a huge one. Because you've touched on so much, 'cause we've this theme of breaking through our societal, parental religious conditioning has been a theme. Yeah. And, certainly the heteronormative kind of, rigid structure of our society. That's a theme. But in your kind of ideal vision of a healthy sexual society I'm just curious what that would look like. Yeah, and I've thought about this and people have asked me similar questions and the first thing that comes to mind is a society. That allows for each individual person to have Their own journey. Yes. Their own exploration. And I could go like super deep into that and where that could go, but just having compassion to know that what someone else is doing in their life. I might not fully understand and it might not make sense to me, but I'm gonna celebrate them and say, i'm glad that you are finding joy in your exploration. So that's what I envision. I envision where there we've removed this idea of judgment or shame around practices and that can, there is a, there's a gray area there, there are certain. Ways that individuals might be practicing certain desire or wants that might be or seem in like certain society, unhealthy or dangerous and just like anything in the world, there's, it's important to keep an eye on, on the way that we're interacting with people. But as long as you're not hurting anyone. And you are, you're being conscious of the exploring that you're doing then. Who's to say what is right or wrong? So really honoring each embodied soul's unique and specific truth in however their sexuality wants to be explored and expressed in their body. Absolutely. Let's. Next to fishing and farming. Sexuality is the oldest profession in the history of what we know as human civilization. Yes indeed. I'm glad you chose this rather than fishing or farming. Andre. Me too. I'm not really good at either of the others. Yeah, me neither. Me neither. It was a good option. Andre, thank you so much. For just sharing your experiences, for sharing yourself, and for most of all, sharing your purpose and your service in the world. Andre Lazarus's website is coming closer.com and we'll have it in the links. And dude, this was great. Thank you so much. Thank you Rahi, and thank you for all the work that you do. And I know that we were interviewing me, but you're also someone who is providing such a beautiful healing space to so many, and you've been doing it longer than I have, so I, I definitely see you as a mentor in my work as well. How is this podcast episode? Landing in your body right now, feeling into your body's sexual authenticity and truth, are there ways you would like to support its most honest expression, embodiment, and experience? What might these be for you? How would it be to consider receiving the support of a somatica coach, sexual surrogate, sacred, intimate, or sexological body worker Links to each of these professions with directories of practitioners can be found in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening --- ### [Shadow Work & Sexuality: Integrating Desire, Shame & Power](https://rahichun.com/podcast/shadow-work-sexuality-embodiment/) **Published:** June 17, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we identify, embody, and explore relating from previously disowned, shamed and judged aspects of our Self to a place of integration and wholeness? Tani Tholes and Leslie Rogers of Light/Dark Institute create private individual & couples' intensives and group retreats to facilitate just that utilizing kink, bondage, Dom/Sub Ceremonies all guided by their client's intentions, and held within a safe container of clearly defined boundaries, safe words, desires and after-care. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Shadow Work & Sexuality: Integrating Desire, Shame & Power # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the role of shadow work in sexuality and how unconscious patterns shape desire, shame, and expression. You’ll learn how integration leads to deeper authenticity and freedom. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/TaniLeslie.jpg "TaniLeslie | Rahi Chun") [Light Dark Institute](https://www.lightdarkinstitute.com/)[Internal Family Systems Therapist Mical Falk](http://marincouplestherapy.com/Individual_Therapy.html) [Internal Family Systems Practitioner/Somatic Sex Educator Deanna Noe](https://www.coachnoe.com/) About Our Guests: Tani Thole and Leslie Rogers have dedicated their lives to the study and exploration of the human psyche and its relationship with the non-material world, through spirituality, psychology, personal development, sexuality, and embodiment. They founded the Light Dark Institute out of a passion for sharing the ways that exploring our dark sides can radically awaken and liberate us from the old patterns that have held us back and kept us in judgement of ourselves and the world around us. In their own words: “To access full approval for ourselves and the world around us, and thereby step into our full power, vulnerability, intimacy, and freedom, it is necessary to touch the darker places inside of ourselves. It can be terrifying to explore these aspects of ourselves when we have childhood traumas and a lifetime of societal conditioning telling us it’s not safe to let these parts be seen. At the Light Dark Institute we create safe spaces for people to explore their shadow sides and tap into the raw force of their personal power and their own deepest potential, so they can transform their own lives and the world around them…. Our work teaches people to engage the darker, unknown aspects of themselves and their world with play and curiosity, so that they can step into a life of living and loving with full power, full surrender, and deep fulfillment.” ## What You’ll Learn About Shadow Work & Sexual Integration $ How identifying, embodying and relating from previously disowned shadow aspects of the Self can be amongst the most empowering practices for personal and sexual wholeness. $ How taking ownership of previously disowned aspects of the Self is “deep end of the pool” work, and requires having done a considerable amount of self-disocvery to be resourced enough to face one’s shadows. $ How dark work involves looking into the most judged, shamed, and early aspects of one’s Self – and how the compulsion to reject is also an invitation to examine and integrate. $ How there’s a point where light and dark meet within us, and by going fully into the dark, one experiences new realms of light & transformation, and by going fully into the light, we are invited to befriend & accept our dark, where an infinite dance can unfold of perfect acceptance of everything we are. $ How the Light/Dark Experience for individuals and couples involve a deep dive into a 3- day/2-night container utilizing kink, bondage, and dom/sub play – clearly defined by boundaries, safe words, desires, & after-care and guided by the client’s intentions of how they want to inhabit their lives on the other side. $ How opening to one’s previously disowned aspects can reveal deep desires that may not have been felt or given permission – or dismissed as entitled, selfish or needy…. and by doing so, can unleash an enormous amount of energy when space for them is finally granted. $ How a partner’s aversion to their partner’s sexual kink or desire can serve as a great indicator of what they’ve been shaming or disowning within themself. $ How the degree of safety and conscientiousness devoted to the Sub or receiver’s boundaries, desires, consent and after-care allows for the Dom’s freedom to reclaim and re-inhabit their previously disowned selves. $ How “life as play” leverages humor in how we relate with others, whilst “dark awakening” can liberate a shadowed aspect disregarded since infancy and thus, when brought into acceptance can allow for vast unexplored terrains of the unconditioned self to be explored. ## ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How rewilding eros and erotic embodiment transforms intimate relationships](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [How the Body Electric and erotic embodiment transforms consciousness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [How erotic sovereignty and embodied power transforms somatic understandings](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [How our sexual energy is life force and can be utilized for social change](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Tani and Leslie Rogers of the Light Dark Institute to the podcast. How can we identify, embody, and integrate previously disowned aspects of ourself back into wholeness? Are there aspects of your sexuality that you've judged, shamed and relegated to the shadows, and by doing so, limiting your sexual wisdom, expression, and life force? Tanya and Leslie created the Light Dark Institute to support and access to the full approval of ourselves and the world around us by touching into the darker places inside of ourselves, and thereby inviting an ownership and embodiment of our full power, vulnerability, intimacy, and freedom. I am super excited today to be inviting Tony and Leslie to the podcast. There's so much to explore here but let me introduce to you guys the audience, how I know Leslie and Tani. I had the pleasure of participating in one of their four day workshops very recently, just a couple of months ago, and this is after hearing about their work. Gosh, probably seven or eight years ago. So you guys have been on my radar for that long and I was so just delighted to have the opportunity to experience your very conscientious and impeccably facilitated workshop, in person. It was really a wonderful experience for me. Really, Tani th and Leslie Rogers have dedicated their lives to the study and exploration of the human psyche and its relationship with the non-material world through spirituality, psychology, personal development, sexuality, and embodiment. They founded like Dark Institute out of a passion for sharing the ways that exploring our dark sides can radically awaken and liberate us from the old patterns that have held us back and kept us in judgment of ourselves and the world around us. To access full approval of ourselves and the world around us, and thereby step into our full power, vulnerability, intimacy and freedom. It is necessary to touch the darker places inside of ourselves. It can be terrifying to explore these aspects of ourselves when we have childhood traumas and a lifetime of societal conditioning telling us it's not safe to let these parts be seen at the like Dark Institute. We create safe spaces for people to explore their shadow sides and tap into the raw force of their personal power and their own deepest potential so they can transform their own lives and the world around them. Tanya and Leslie, thank you so much for being guests on this podcast. It's great to see you guys. Great to see you. Thank you, Rahi. Thank you so much for having us. It's so to be here. Yeah. So great to see you and hello to everybody who's listening or watching. Yeah. Right on. I'd like our audience to clearly understand the realms of spaces that you hold. So I experienced a four day workshop, which invited about, I think 25 participants to identify, embody via somatic exercises, interact and relate with others from previously disowned shadow aspects. So our dark art archetypes or dark types of ourselves, which culminated in ceremony work of fully embodying and creating new relational imprints. Exploring these dark types in an intentional container with agreed upon boundaries, safe words, gestures, and aftercare. I know a lot of your service is also holding space for very personalized one-on-one or couples retreats. In ceremony, based on very clarified intentions about taking full ownership of disowned shadow aspects of the self, could you guys share in your own words the intention of each of your offerings? Yeah. Wow. I love that question. It's a big question because I think the thing that I wanna say to start off with is, and we'll, we can get into a little bit more at some point, I'm sure about talking about what light dark work is what the heart of the work is. But one thing that's relevant to mention about it is, it's generally speaking, it's deep end of the pool work. It's work that is really designed for people who've already been on a powerful personal growth journey for a while and have really built some muscles around self-awareness and capacity to hold themselves capacity to move through their own process. And so the work we do, whether it be our private intensives or our workshops is very deep dive kind of work. The reason we call it light dark is to create a separation between those two approaches. And the, what we call light work is basically any time you're going into heel change, transform, exit, some pattern. It's really about progress. It's growing. It's moving in a new direction. It's seeing a better day and moving towards it. And what we mean by dark work is basically loving what is embracing, accepting everything as it is and not trying to change it. And we separate those two things because I, although we believe they work in tandem beautifully, it's just the way the world works. They can disrupt each other. When you're thinking, like some, a lot of times people are head into shadow work or trying to learn how to love themselves through trying to make themselves better. Which then can create more disowned parts that, you can get into this kind of infinite wheel if you're just doing light work where you're like, wow, you had this discovery and you found out that this part of yourself was the part that was in the way. And then you start working on it to try to make it better and you don't realize that we're oftentimes fulfilling parental patterns that we, that created the whole situation in the first place. And we're all our minds, our beings are just going towards what we know. And so we create these, internal dynamics that can just perpetuate the very thing we're trying to exit through. Trying to exit. And what dark work does is really just like looking at what is looking at that gross, disgusting, perverted, violating violent, murderous, destructive, horrendous, gnarly. Just the things you just want to get rid of, you wish weren't there in yourself and the world around you. And realizing that compulsion to reject is the invitation in. The invitation into embodiment, the invitation into owning that this too is part of your experience. This part is part of your essential self. Because on some level, in its most subjective sense, you're creating it. Creating this world of judgments. You're creating this world of violence and murders that isn't to dismiss, objective reality entirely. But it is to say there is we play a role in how we do that. And light when we go at trying to get rid of it. Ironically, that's what genocide does. That's what murder is. It's trying to get rid of the darkness. That's what prison is. That's what all of these things that are almost just natural day to day. Parts of life are just attempting to do and we just accept it. And ironically, light work can become very dark. Like I think we live in a society that loves talking about the light, loves showing off the light, focusing on the light. And it's really, we're really denying so much of our existence and so much of nature itself and what you're speaking to. Leslie, like it is the judgment, it is in the denying that kind of allows it to fester and become, come out and really shadowy unconscious ways. Yeah, absolutely. When we're like, I can't see that part of me, then all of a sudden that part gets in the driver's seat and we're like, I'm not seeing what's happening. It can definitely cause blind spots. If you put a lid on a pot of boiling water, you're like, stuff that lid on it, stop it, but then it's gonna boil over anyway. And those moments where it comes out, it's like I'm a nice conscious, light oriented person and I don't hold bad vibes. And then all of a sudden and all this rage comes out in some unexpected moment. Yeah. And so those are some of the pitfalls of a strictly light orientation as we define light and dark. That being said, we. Absolutely honor light work as a very important path. We, for us, light and dark are both equally important and there's a time and a place for both of them. And in our work, we really do fundamentally weave them together in, when we get into talking about our offerings we're always using both of them because in any given moment. Person's system or with a group or with, anything that's arising In some moments, the path is to go dark. It's to really be like, okay, how do we really be with what's here without trying to change it and finding the gifts and really honoring the power or the wisdom that is coming through this. 'cause there's so much wisdom in those parts of us and the world that we wanna push away. They have so many answers for us. They have so many gifts to bring and we lose that when we push them away. So it's really feeling okay, is this the moment to really sit with that and harvest the gifts and the wisdom that are coming through this darkness? Or is it the moment of no, there's a trauma here that is gonna put the brakes on everything until it gets addressed. And we need to really bring in the, the soft, gentle healing and really hold and bring resource. Light work is a lot about bringing resource to the areas that have felt under-resourced and through that, helping them to transform and move. And shift and change and heal. So we really honor both. And to us the actual really exciting point is where they meet because there, there's a place where light and dark become each other and fuse and come into this infinite dance with each other. For all that it's been unfortunately, y be, become almost cliched as a symbol. But the yin yang symbol is an incredibly powerful symbol of exactly. That the light and the dark are, chasing each other in this kind of constant spiral dance. And at the point of the center of each one is a point of the other. It's like you go all the way into the light and you can come out into the dark where you're in this perfect approval of everything. And if you go all the way into the dark, all of a sudden you can pop out into the light where this incredible transformation is happening. So that, that symbol really is actually what we're up to here with the Light Dark Institute and without, it's really where light and dark are in that infinite dance together and the healing and the embracing of what is be, become one. Yeah. I really found that to be the case that interweaving between the light and the dark in, in the workshop, you guys layered it so beautifully. Like practice after practice, but really identifying. Owning our disgust, owning our resistance and avoidance, and then inviting us to take that on somatically and then to relate to other beings somatically. I found that those archetypes that I was most disgusted by are the ones that made me feel most empowered. In ceremony, in relating with others in the various somatic exercises. I would love the audience to understand like the offerings that you have, because my, I experienced the workshop. I had a friend who did a one-on-one intensive. I know you work with couples as well. Can you share if the intention is the intention pretty much what you laid out, like really interweaving both the light and the dark so that we can be at peace with our whole selves and empower as a result, empowered? Or are there different intentions for the couples intensive retreats or the one-on-ones that you offer? Yeah I'll talk about, we call it the light dark experience and that's the three days, that's our private intensive, it's our private intensive that we do with individuals or with couples and our group workshops. Were really looking at the darkness together as a group. And and using our own individual darknesses to bring them together to explore with each other in this kind of open-ended intention towards really embracing the darkness is which is what we call the first level workshop. And our private work, like dark experiences are really about the individual and their intentions. And I'll say, what we do is we go we enter, we create a container where we enter into direct play. With our clients. We utilize, as in our private work, in our private work, we utilize aspects of bdsm. And that container. Kink, namely safe words, aftercare boundaries negotiations for all those things. And we add in a one aspect that for us, makes it something more than just. An exploration of erotic desire, but we add in intentions. And intentions are about like where you want to, they're really light oriented tools about where you want to be on the other side of this. Who you wanna be, you see something. What would it be like if you didn't constantly run away from this part of yourself, but instead this part of yourself was. Integrated into your life. And we just, we go into direct play. We basically do those intentions and it's a really open-ended, totally custom design for each individual or each couple to just dive into whatever is arising and play with it. And we interweave that with lots of going into play, embodying these creatures and having them meet each other. Yeah. We're always, we actually, come out and meet the asym asymmetrical opposite of that other one. If there's one in there who wants to dominate or take control or violate, or there's one in there. Who wants all the, wants to receive all of those things. This is a container where we can actually start to explore what's outside of kind of our conditioned levels of power. We're willing to that, that we've been if I go too far this way, it gets really scary and dangerous. And if I go far too far this way, it gets really scary, dangerous over here. I'll be destroyed, I'll be knocked down over here, I'll lose myself, as we go up in power, or down in power, as it were. And there's lots of fears that come up in there. So we're playing in new power ranges. We're playing with aspects that have never gotten a chance to be spoken from, if only spoken about. So when those, and when those parts get to be spoken from, it's an incredibly powerful, liberating experience because what we always discover to on some level is wow, this has been me all along. And I think of it as there's this great roomy poem that I can't think of at the moment, but it's like you're knocking on the door to your truce, to your higher self, to the divine, and you're like, please open this door if I could just get good enough. And then it's like through acceptance, the door just opens on the other side, and there you are looking at you. And that's the experience of embodying the darkness is like suddenly, instead of scratching at the door trying to get in, you are on the other side of the door looking back at yourself at the one who judged, worried, denied. And so in the private experiences, we're really going into and customizing experiences that maximize that experience, that embodiment of those dark parts. An invitation to pause and notice your breathing right now. What are you feeling in your body as you take in the themes of this exploration? Can you feel any disowned or shamed aspects of yourself in your body that are wanting yearning, maybe hungering to be acknowledged, explored, embodied, and integrated? Let's take a deep breath and feel whatever it is you're feeling and make it okay exactly as it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna just reflect that, these aspects that we've shamed often come from deep childhood wounds, where we've disowned because it was too dangerous to really embody or come from that aspect. And so it's profound work. It's profound work. The friend who shared with me their one-on-one individual retreat with you just spoke about how incredibly thorough and detailed the prep the preparation leading up to the retreat is, they clarified their intentions. They were re-homed, they were redefined until they really got to the crystal, gem of what it is that they wanted to break through around. And then it sounds like every day was just. Really embodying, taking, just bringing in that disowned aspect to really embody and feel through and to relate, with you guys and scene work so much so that when they got to the other side, like you said, Leslie, the, they're on the other side of that door looking back. It just, it feels so profound. I'm curious whether the intensives you do for couples I'm guessing, like we all have our disowned aspects as individuals, even within a relationship. On the one hand, it would be amazing to play a role in the ownership of your partner's, disowned aspect. On the other hand, I'm guessing maybe some couples realize that their core desires may be very different. Like I, I'm curious how it is for you guys to hold space for couples as opposed to individuals. Yeah. Yeah. Before I speak to that specifically, or whichever of us is gonna speak to that, I wanna just add in a little bit of context around the pri, the private work, the light dark experience that we're talking about, just so that your audience has some picture of what we're talking about. So it's a three day, two night experience. That's just the two of us with one client or one couple for that whole time. And it's in person, as Leslie was saying, we're in direct play. We're doing weaving back and forth between coaching and direct embodied play. And there is, as you were referring to, and I just wanted to make sure this is. Understood as we're diving into this, that there is an extensive intake process. The whole light dark experience actually unfolds over the course of about two to three months because we do this huge intake process and then also a deep follow up process to help with integration. And in the intake process, the very first thing that we do is a very deep dive into our clients. Backstory we have them fill out an extensive intake form, plus we do a call to really get the nitty gritty of like their childhood and family history, all of the kind of traumas and experiences of childhood. Also, their sexual and relationship history. Any, major traumas, major transformations, major accomplishments, major heartbreaks, like really we get the whole. Picture of their life up until then, and also where they're wanting to go in their life so that we really have a sense of what are the forces that have shaped them. And like you're saying, these spots that come up, that both the disowned things that we don't wanna look at and the stories that we have about ourselves, and also the places we're wanting to go and the blocks that are there. It's so impacted by the forces that have shaped us by traumas that have happened in our lives by role models, positive and negative. It's so impacted by our life's journey up until that point. So we really take seriously doing a lot of research so that we really understand what our client has. Has been through in their life and what's helped to shape them so that we can really hold them well. And then as you mentioned, the intention setting process. It's not just a oh, hey, write some intentions on a piece of paper and we'll see you in a few weeks. It's it's a multi, we do calls, we're sending drafts back and forth. We're pulling things apart. We're delving into, their shame stories about themselves as well as where they're really wanting to go. We're really doing a lot of feedback to help them maybe be like, okay, that one, but then, you've got that intention, but it feels totally like pie in the sky. Like what do you actually need to know and find in yourself to get to that place that you're wanting to go to? So the intentions wind up being just incredible by the time we even start the experience, because each one of them is like so packed with. Power and potency and also a roadmap in and of itself of how to get there. And then what we're doing in the experience is really taking people through that like 'cause here's the intention, but the grooves that they've developed over life may go that way. And it's like, how do we actually make grooves in your system to know how to get to that place where that intention is pointing you so that when you go home, and we support a lot through the integration process too, but so that when you go home, you're like I know what that feels like in my body. I've been there, I've been that person. I know how to do that. I know how to be that. And oh, right here's how I remember how to get there. And that's what the integration process is in supporting to really make sure that those grooves keep refining and honing and deepening so that there's more and more of that access. And I'll just add in what really makes it so powerful is, it's funny, you can, and this is so often our clients experience, they're like, oh my God, just this one hour was like a year of therapy. Because when we actually just get in and play with the things we're so terrified of the resistance makes it seem like just the most horrendous thing, we're gonna die, we're gonna go crazy, we're gonna make a person, someone, we're gonna hurt someone. All that stuff comes up for everybody. And it's essential that it does, because it wouldn't be dark if it didn't. And so these experiences are for people who really get the value, at least on some level, the value of going in there. Because that's what we're gonna do. And when you get in there Wow. Like suddenly I have all this experience of all these desires that were forbidden that were cut off. Aspects of things you wanted, but then it got labeled as. Entitled, selfish. Or things you really wanted or got labeled as weak and small, or whatever it is, like needy. And we just, we have these, like all these classifications that come up over to protect ourselves from being re-traumatized by the ways that trauma and experience passed down. And so when we're working, going back to this question, we're working with couples we're really putting the focus on the intentions of the relationship. I see. Where they want the relationship to be on the other side of this. When they, when, so I love that question about like when people have different core desires Yeah. Which is the case for so many couples. And even if it wasn't in the beginning, eventually there's gonna be some differences. There's gonna be some places where it's I just want that. And I. He or she, they don't want it. And how do we play with that? What do we do when that happens? And for us, it's a really open-ended palette of what's possible. But the main thing that is that exploring your dark sides can do is open up whole new hosts of desires that you didn't know were there. So there is, I think if there's an aversion for something your partner wants, that's very interesting to us. If you're just like in different, then maybe you can still play and still meet in different ways. It's not a problem. But if there's a problem meeting your partner in something and you're really interested in. Transformation and exploring darkness. That is a great darkness to explore. And so our partners become these great mirrors for us to explore aspects of ourselves that we might have denied or exiled. And what can happen a lot with couples is they come in thinking one of them's kinky, the other one's not one. How do we bring these core desires together? What do we do? And we get in there and realize oh, what is kinky? It's being interested in power. I was interested in power in these very narrow ways, like when it looked like this or that, the things I was, but when I opened up to my darkness, I realized there's a much broader spectrum and and in those broader spectrums, the couples can start finding. New places to play and meet that neither one of them had a conception of before going in we can have a conception. 'cause we've been doing this. We're like, oh, okay, we, I see a lot of possibility there. Let's find out what happened. And we just trust the process, not really coaching people towards some something. It's really, when they open to it, it's gonna be so much more than we could ever like. Put into, or even like hope to understand or know for each person. So we really trust this process, play of going in, embodying those things. And on the other side, it's okay, great, they're the ones with the discoveries. We're just there to help. How do you now integrate this, recontextualize this into other aspects of your life? Wow, that is really clear. Like what I'm hearing is if there is an aversion to something, there's some charge there, and that charge means there's some juice there to explore. It's very different than indifference. And then if there, when there is a charge there and there is something to explore when there's an ownership of a dark archetype, it just opens up all of these realms of possibilities that were not available before. So both people start to, bro, they both parties have a broadened a more expansive palette that they didn't even realize was possible beforehand. That's very exciting. Can I just slip it a please. A specific example how this could work? Great. It's like some cases we have someone who really wants to be like, dominated or humiliated or put down, and the other partner is very I don't. I don't want that. I don't like that kind of play. And maybe even slightly judging their partner's desire for that. And we're like, oh, you're almost there. You're so close. Yeah. You're already doing the thing that your partner wants you to do. It's just, it's not, it's at the look, the image of it as opposed to the embodiment. Just embody your, yeah. We call it arrogant detainer. Just embody it, uhhuh, bring it forward. That's the thing. Your partner's actually really cravings to feel your that, to have that intimacy with your actual judgments. As opposed to kinda like we, we use these things to hold ourselves back from it. They can become block store intimacy and when we embody the darkness, all of a sudden we can not only, not just close the gap a little, but actually wake up like this almost on the other side. Like where things flipped around oh my gosh, like I actually love this more, in some cases. Or the partner won something like humiliation. To be dominated, and then their partner's oh, I don't want that. And then their partner gets there and is actually likes doing it more than the partner even is available for. At that moment, like the ways these things like grow and flip and we, especially in relationships we really start to become each other our, or we see a relationship, a partnership as a place of practice of growing together. We reparent each other we recondition and we also repeat the traumas and conditions of the past. So there's so much possibility in the relationship itself to transform the individuals. Yeah. And for the relationship to be transformed into something beyond what. Our ideas of what our parents in society have given us. Yeah it's exciting and really profound. I'm curious as we're discussing this, whether, do you find that when couples come to you guys for the three-day intensivess, that a lot of their intentions revolve around owning, taking ownership of previously disowned sexual aspects or sexual selves? Or are they more overarching? Because, to be honest with you, that was one of the surprises when I participated in your workshop was that for some reason, maybe because of my past visits to your website, I thought that it would be more of an exploration of disowned sexual selves. What I found was that, as I mentioned to you as we did identify and somatically explore and relate from these disowned over overarching dark types that really affected. My taking ownership of different aspects of my sexual self. But I'm curious, when couples come to you, are they more focused on wanting to embody and own what's been shamed about their sexuality? Or is it more kind of overarching dark archetypes? That's a great question. I will answer that before, do you wanna share the Oscar wild quote? I love this quote by Oscar Wild of just it, it highlights, I think a hidden truth that can be a challenge to accept, which is everything is about sex except for sex. That's about power. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. That is a great quote. So that, that to us feels very relevant because like, how do you actually put. A definition on what is sex and what isn't. What is sexual and what isn't. There, from our lens there, there can be a sexual or erotic component to some of the most mundane things out there, and especially when you start to. Acknowledge the power piece around sec. There's just so much, there's all these layers happening that we don't acknowledge typically, because it's that's sexual and that's not, and so just like you're saying in our workshop, and the same is true in a light, dark experience. The boundaries of exactly for example, in the light, dark experience and in our workshops we have a no genital contact boundary. So there's not actual penetrative sex happening, but that doesn't mean that there can't be an incredible amount of stuff in the sexual realms or the erotic realms that's getting worked and getting touched. And absolutely. And sometimes it comes through the most unexpected ways. Sometimes you go towards the sexual and it becomes something very other than what we normally think of as sexual. Sometimes you go towards something that doesn't seem typically sexual and all of a sudden it's highly erotic. Yeah. And so to us it really is. It's like a, it's, yeah. Sex. Sex and sexuality are one of the things that get most intensely relegated to the darkness. And by the way, before we define light work and dark work, but we haven't defined what we describe as light, light and dark. We think of light as anything that we have approval for. That we can see and we have approval for. We're like, yep. That's good. I'm good with that. And the dark is anything that we either can't see or don't have approval for. And so there's so much about sexuality that gets relegated into those realms of darkness. And for each person it's different. What is one person's, light, I've got approval for it, is another person's dark, they don't have approval for it, and vice versa. So it's really personal, which is one of the beauties of the light dark experiences. We can go really in on the specifics for each person. One thing I'll say is one lens you can take on the world that I think is really powerful is basically, seeing all suffering, pain, all the things that we make into a problem in our lives as shamed, pushed down, repressed sexual energy. So in other words, if we were feeling all of ourselves, including our, the sexuality of it. Of every moment. So I think of it, to me it's helpful. Think about it in terms of chakras or centers of feeling that we have inside of our hills. Some centers of feeling are closed off. Like when you're in the workplace to stay safe, you close off your sexual feelings and that by doing so, we don't feel desires and therefore we don't feel tempted to do something that would have us lose our job or something like that. There's all sorts of situations where we turn it off. It doesn't mean it's not happening at all, it is still happening. And that's like where we put the lid on the pot where it can start to boil over. And the stance that we take is, feeling everything that's there, even the gross stuff that you're not supposed to feel. I say gross in quotations 'cause it's not really gross. It's just the full range of human experience does not put you at effect of losing yourself unless that's what you want to have happen. Unless you're going to the erotic to lose yourself or to like, or to discover something, and then the rest of the time not feeling it. And, our ideal, what we want for our clients and what we want for the world is for us to be available, to feel the whole range of ourselves, right? And thus have us live truly in the moment and not according to our conditioning and trauma, which is what has us shut down those centers of feeling and say, this is sexual, this is not sexual. We do this 'cause that's how we stay safe. It makes so much sense. There's so many situations where it makes so much sense not to feel your sexual desires, but that does not stop that energy from continuing to run. And in some cases, creating disastrous messes that we don't see coming because we're not available for feeling. Yeah. And another way I think about this is, oh, go. No. Please sit here. We haven't even gotten to your question yet. Yeah. I know my mind's going off on tangents as well yeah. Just to piggyback on something, that everything is sexual and that, of course everything's sexual, like we're sexual beings and it's all, they're all expressions of this sexual life force. And what I found, really fascinating was, the culmination of the workshop in Boulder. I was paired up with a terrific guy, and I just an annihilated him with, energetically, I just tore his heart out. I was the dom and it was highly erotic and sexual, yet it wasn't like traditionally sexual at all. But that energy of consuming and wanting to devour someone was so freeing and liberating Andy and erotic at the same time. Yeah, it's such a beautiful example. Thank you for sharing that. That goes, I'll just share 'cause it goes exactly so well with what I wanted to share is a lot of times we're afraid to go to these places, like the part that would kill and devour another being because we think we would lose ourselves to it or we would suddenly be open to that kind of desire or something like that. But what we've, what we find when you do it consciously, when you approach it consciously, you don't lose yourself. You're still the sta same compassionate, caring being who now gets to integrate this part of ourselves. And really when we do that, the actual effect is if we ever do encounter, say a violent situation where that creature is external to us happening. Before we would shut down feeling, be in a reactive place and I think be in a less safe place in ourselves in response to that person. Because we would, when we get reactive and we shut down, we actually create the experience for the devour, for the murderer, for the killer, for the one who wants to destroy that separation, that disconnection that they're actually trying to destroy. Yes. And so we actually become the one to destroy by our fear and reactivity. Whereas when we're in love with that part of ourselves and we see it in another, and we're able to, at least we, it doesn't mean we can't take care of ourselves, but we're able to tap into that empathy, that connection. We enter whole new realms of experience that, that I, I've had a good friend of mine was about to be raped by someone in this situation that she just let herself be entered into, and she just looked up at him and she just saw love. In his eyes, and she just let it come through. Her being, and he bawled and cried in her arms all night and be what was gonna become a lifetime traumatizing experience, potentially became a healing experience. And not that we all need to enter that level, but that's what's possible, that there's actual safety in loving what is. Yeah. I wanna piggyback on that because you know what really stood out in the way you guys facilitate was the repeated return to the safety of the container, the boundaries, the aftercare, the safe words, like gauging within ourselves what is a yellow as opposed to a green and a red. And that's what allowed for the freedom and the unleashing of that primal energy in the space. Because at the whole time, there's a consciousness that. Be aware of the yellow if the if this person says yellow, or if they say blue, I know, you know that they're dissociated or, so the container was so cl clean and conscientious towards the receiver's safety, and that's what provided the freedom. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. To us really that's one of those places where light meets dark is a good container. Because when we set a really strong container and everybody's on the same page, which is really important that you know what you think is yellow means, and I think yellow means are not different. We're like really sure that they mean the same thing. So we both know how to respond if it comes up. And for anyone who's maybe listening who doesn't know those terms, yellow is a request to slow down or lighten up on what's happening. We use these, color coded words to help with that and having a really strong container. Is it that is the light. Work in there. That's saying Hey, actually we really care about your safety. We don't want you to get re-traumatized. We want everybody here to come through this more whole than you were before. More intact, feeling better in yourself than you did before. That's that light work that's coming in and really holding that container and then within that, when that's really strongly held, then the dark explosions that can happen in there because we actually feel safe to go to those places in ourselves. 'cause we can trust ourselves more and we can trust our partners and we can trust the room then. Then it's then we can actually really go in there for the sake of the dark without the needing to change it with let's just discover what's here. Because I know if we start to stray into territory that just, isn't bad, but maybe doesn't work for the person that I'm partnered with. Oh then we have the light, we have the container to hold us. And so to us it's it's in that cauldron where both are meeting the light in the dark in that place that, that yes. So much transformation can happen. Yeah. Yeah. So safety and container are such important pieces for us. In how we teach and how we hold. Yeah. Yeah. It makes the whole thing work really. Before in preparation for this call, I was going through my notes from our workshop in Boulder and there are a couple of things that I wanted to share that I jotted down, letting go into the mystery of the animal body wisdom. Following core desires, the safer you take care of yourself, the deeper you can explore desires. It's a meditation of tracking sensations and sensation capacity in regards to voicing boundaries, feeling into, oh, this was interesting, like in the negotiation of boundaries, feeling into what would be a yes. If initially the response is a no do, are people surprised at how spiritual this work actually is? They might be coming to this work wanting to explore their sexual dark side, but then realize this work is spiritual. It's really so healing and humane and, we're really creating a safe container for those shamed and rejected parts of the inner child to be recognized and to be nourished and to be, brought out of the shadow. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you seeing and speaking to that because for both of us it absolutely is. It's deeply spiritual and both of us have been on a lifetime spiritual path, and we've both had very profound spiritual awakenings in our lifetimes, and. Absolutely that comes through in the work because it's such a big piece of both of us. And it isn't necessarily overtly obvious sometimes from the outside that's what we're up to. And I think, the work lands for each person wherever they're at and whatever is Yes. The particular medicine that they're needing and wanting in that moment. And so for some people it is profoundly spiritual. It, it lands that way for many people. And for some people it may not land that way. And however it lands is perfect. Yeah. Yeah. For our audience, I'd love I'd love you guys to share. I remember at the end of the workshop you had shared how. The Light Dark Institute is evolving that you wanted to bring, I think, more light and help me understand like, what can people expect as far as offerings that are available now and what you envision as far as how it's gonna evolve in the future. So one thing I'll say is. Since the pandemic and COVID we had, we're just starting up group workshops and we've been evolving those in new ways. So we're coming, we're gonna be coming out with a host of new workshops that are not fully ready yet to come out. But we are still doing what has been like, our kind of first level entry and what we call embracing the darkness is, which is what you did workshop. And yes, that's a three and a half day workshop group work. But yeah, so at this moment our, we're still. Running full steam with our private work, with the light dark experience, again for individuals or couples, but the workshops at the moment, we're only offering them for private communities. This is something that's started where private groups are like, Hey, there's, there, we have this community. We want you to come teach us. Will you teach this workshop? And embracing the darkness really is a, it's an introductory workshop to the light dark work, but it's. Again, our whole body of work is in the deep end of the swimming pool. Yeah. So it's not designed for, it's not really designed for people who are new to a personal growth journey, we don't recommend it. We would recommend doing more light work first, doing more. Trauma healing, more excavating of the past, and, really resourcing some of the parts that are under-resourced. And then embracing the darkness is more designed for people that have already had a lot of that work under their belt and are ready to really touch some of the darker places that they haven't found approval for in, in other modalities that they've tried. That's how we're still continuing to offer that work regarding where we're going from here. One of the really the light and dark metaphor speaks to the heart of it, that that, and this is where I'll get a little more spiritual with it for a moment, which is. There dark work can be seen as the path of pure infinite oneness, acceptance of everything that is as perfect and light work can be seen as having a little bit more to do with. It's like the human heart and the way that our hearts care for things and we're like, we see pain, we see suffering in the world, and we want to impact it. We want to change it. We want to, heal. Whether it's, stopping child abuse or healing the what's being done to the, to our planet on the nature level or, stopping war. There's so many places, each individual has a different place where our heart feels activated and for us, one of the big curiosity points is how those pieces dance together. For me personally, that's been a big piece of my spiritual journey is around the places where the deep. The deep knowledge that everything is perfect already as it is how that dances with my human heart that sees, for me, I'm a big nature lover and when my, my, I feel trees and nature and animals as though they're my kin. And so when I see trees being cut, there's this ah, there's this part of me that wants to act, that wants to do something and how to weave the knowing that it's all perfect and the part that wants to act from care. Yeah. So there, there are ways that is, that is coming through. And I feel like in our work over the years we've been doing it the ever more nuanced ways of leaving and really speaking to that joining point. Let me just say one of the things that's coming through in our future work as we move forward is we're excited to start doing workshops in nature more and in places that are natural settings and connected to the natural world, and actually really weave in an exploration of the darkness that exists both in nature and between us and nature. That there's so much there to explore around. The ways that we fear the darkness of nature, and then we need to control it, and then we cut ourselves off from it because we're afraid to feel the wildness and the unpredictability. There's so much there. Yes. So that's one of the things that we're gonna be doing moving forward, is really offering our work in nature and in ways that we get to explore the darkness, including through the sexuality and the, the dark types and all these other things that have always been part of it. And also really weaving it in with, here's a major area where many of us feel disconnection or feel darkness, and how do we dance with that? So that's one of the things that's emerging. Wanna. Yeah. I just wanna speak to what we do currently have on offer. Sure. Besides if you're interested in exploring, having a private workshop for your community or your area that's something also you could reach out to us about. And 'cause that's been like our primary entry into group work lately. And we're moving more in that direction of just offering workshops in this nature, in this new context. So both of those are available light dark experiences, which are a top thing for individuals and couples. We talked about that. That happens by the way, in a, and we, it's a kink bed and breakfast. It's like a, we have a dungeon, we have a dungeon, it's a home with a dungeon. So it's a sweet, it's a, to us. And we meet there and there's just all sorts of ways to play in the dark there that we can externalize the. Internal psychological things that are in there. Yeah. Sierra Monterey, California. And I wanna just briefly before you carry on, I wanna weave back 'cause you had a question about the couples LDE. And while we're on the subject of LDEs, I just wanna really briefly mention, 'cause you had asked, is it primarily about the sexual. Components of relationship or is it Yeah. Other things as well. And basically, the way that couples LDEs work is that it's a the, there's a set of intentions for the relationship, and then each coup, each individual gets a, creates their own set of intentions. So we're working both individuals, but because we're really focused on the relationship, it varies. Every LDE is so individualized based on the individual or the couple that we're working with because it's completely tailor made. It's not a group workshop. It's completely made for that person or that couple. I would say most couples are including an elements of. They're sexual relating and wanting to find new ways or improve or reconnect or whatever it is. And there are other things that are coming up as well for most couples. So it really is, just depends on the couple where we're going with that. And then there was one other thing that I wanted to mention regarding a little bit more about how we work and how we actually do what we do. Because it might be relevant for people if they're like, okay, but so what are you actually doing with all of it? Yeah. How are you doing it? What's happening in those rooms right behind the closed? And a lot of it, we can't get into the details just 'cause it's it is so varied, but I wanted to just name that there are two primary pathways that we use in our work. One we call life as play, and the other we call Dark Awakening. And those will give you a little bit of a sense of how we do what we do. And so I'll speak to the life as play part, which is basically. Regarding darkness, regarding the things that we have disapproval for in ourselves or in the world. It's so easy to have a sense of those things as a big deal, as heavy as like wrong. And there's all these stories that kind of crystallize around it to, it can feel like really intense big deal. And so part of what we do in our work is we bring in humor and we bring in levity and we bring in a sense of you know what, this is normal and it's no big deal. Okay, you're needy, so we're all needy. I'm so needy. You are like, okay, like you're controlling. Yeah, like I wanna control too. I wanna control him or control his situation and like really bringing in the kind of playful spirit behind it till everybody's laughing and getting a chance to just be like, oh, okay. This thing I've been like, oh my life. I've been like, oh my God, don't let anybody see me as stiff. But then all of a sudden it's I'm so stiff. And then it just becomes funny and it becomes not a big deal anymore. Or erotic. It can go erotic or erotic too. Yeah. Uhhuh and so much of that heaviness and that kind of big deal feeling can just melts away when we bring in that humor. So we bring that in a lot in our workshops and in the field of there's a whole bunch of us in the room and all of a sudden everybody's being needy. It's oh okay. Maybe that's okay. Or, in, in our work with couples, for example, we bring it in a lot too. That's one of the ways we work with couples is he, this one's got that pattern, that one's got that pattern. They both get really locked in when they're in that spot. And what happens if we get really over the top and exaggerated and ridiculous about those things and all of a sudden they're like on the floor in, in stitches laughing about it. So humor is a big part of what we do, and that's the life is play piece, humor and levity and just lightening it up. And so much of what that can lead to is like the very thing that was stopping intimacy and connection is now the thing causing intimacy and connection through playfulness. And that's really, I would say life is play is really about how we relate to others outside of ourselves. And the other pathway that we're we really use is what we call dark awakening, which I've spoke to a little bit, but love to put it in this context, which is yeah. Really about discovering those, those dark parts of self, those dark parts that judge shame, feel ashamed, feel hurt by the world, feel victimized by the world, feel disgust for the world and wish it would all go away, that destroy everything. All of those parts inside there are with dark awakening when we really step into, embody and own. Apart inside of ourselves. And the way I think about this is there's you, could you, I could put the spiritual lens on this. And I have had some profound experiences in dark awakening where all of a sudden something else was looking through my eyes and that something else had an entirely different identity than I ever imagined myself to have. And through that experience, I got to see, oh, all my little fears, all my little conditionings are nothing compared to what it is to look through these eyes and to see the world as mine, for example. And the way I think about this and talk about this is in developmental psychology. When we, when as we're, as we grow up, we get conditioned and traumatized at certain moments, we say, okay, that part's no good. If you're that part, you're a bad person and no one will love you. Basically is always the basic message. And so that part gets put under wraps. Okay. I'm not that it gets put in the dark. And what's amazing about Dark Awakening is when you get inside of and really embody a part that's been there, from the light perspective, that's a wounded part of yourself because it's been. It's been held down, it's been repressed. It hasn't been able to come forth in the world. But from a dark perspective, that's a protected part of yourself. And what I mean by that is everything that happened after that moment of trauma to that part of yourself, what's on the other side of that darkness has is has not been conditioned. In other words, there's been a part of you protected from conditioning. And so when we get into these younger parts, especially when we get into the infantile aspects of our psychology, we get into places that have so much liberation, so much freedom. It's whoa, nothing I was taught is true, nothing. And now I can step into the reality of what is true for me. And that's a, that's, that is kinda like what we're really headed towards when we talk about dark work and dark awakening. And the last thing I'll mention is I do coaching. If you're interested in just like how to just bring this into your life, it's very helpful with this work to have an embodied experience to really get it. But if you're clear about what you're wanting and where you're, what you want to explore and turn over, I offer coaching that helps get inside of and play with those dark aspects and then how to integrate 'em. And then how to like really empower your life. At the workshop was witnessing each of you really embody the exploration of, in the demos and with some of the assistants, and it was really exciting to see the example of you guys embodying these dark types and how they can interact with others in play. So I can imagine how incredibly valuable that coaching would be. When you guys mentioned that you wanna move into including more of nature and the wildness and the darkness of just going back to the theme of everything is sexual and nature, when we really witness nature and the beauty, the ferocity and the gentleness, it's so sexual. Like it's a sexual, as as you can get. And so I'm so happy to hear that you guys are moving into that realm. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you both so much for your service and all of the really unique and conscientious offerings. The sincerity and the I was just so impressed by your facilitation and how you guys walk your talk and, the safe container and just how you layered things. So well for all of us to, really have the kind of breakthroughs that we did. So thank you guys for being on the podcast and for doing what you're doing. I love it. Thank you so much, Rocky. It's been such a pleasure connecting with you. We just had such appreciation for getting to know you more deeply through that workshop and such reverence for the work that you are doing in the world as well, which we know is so important. And we can just vouch for the caliber of you as a human from the connection that we've had so far. Just grateful that you are out there as such a, high integrity, caring, heart-centered human offering, the powerful work that you offer. So thank you as well. Notice how the themes we've explored in this interview are landing in your body right now. What sensations do you notice? What feelings or emotions are present with you? Are there aspects you're aware of that have been disowned, shamed, or judged that may be wanting and feel ready to be recognized, honored, and integrated back into wholeness? Are there aspects of your sexuality that have been in the shadow, repressed, muted, that you sense need a voice and rightful place in your body and at the table of your sexual wholeness? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening --- ### [Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening (Caffyn Jesse)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/honoring-caffyn-jesse-erotic-embodiment/) **Published:** August 13, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** A celebration of the radiant, embodied Spirit and Eros that is Caffyn Jesse - pioneering Somatic Sex Educator, Trainer, Practitioner, and Author of "The Science of Sexual Happiness" and "Erotic Massage for Healing and Pleasure" who retires this month as faculty from the wonderful Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education that she co-created - but not before leaving behind a legacy of encouraging neuroplastic change to support sexual healing and expanded pleasure, unwinding sexual trauma, exploring the intersection of sex and spirit, and creating erotic community. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening (with Caffyn Jesse) # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/unnamed-3.jpg "unnamed-3 | Rahi Chun") [Caffyn’s web-site: erospirit.ca](https://www.erospirit.ca/) [Caffyn’s online erotic education courses](https://intimacy-institute.teachable.com/) [Books: PDF: Intimacy Educator](https://www.erospirit.ca/books/intimacy-educator/) [Books: Science For Sexual Happiness](https://www.erospirit.ca/books/science-for-sexual-happiness/) [Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education](https://somaticsexeducator.com/) [Youtube: How to Play the 3-min Game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KCzpNBNbVM) ## In This Episode We explore erotic embodiment and what it means to live in connection with your body, sexuality, and life force. You’ll learn how this work supports healing, expression, and personal freedom. About Caffyn: Caffyn Jesse is a leading somatic sex educator who teaches on encouraging neuroplastic change to support sexual healing and expanded pleasure, unwinding sexual trauma, exploring the intersection of sex and spirit, and creating erotic community. She is a faculty member at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education. Caffyn is a prolific author who has researched and written on the science of sexual happiness, neurobiology and sexual healing, trauma, erotic touch, orgasm coaching and many other topics. You can learn more about Caffyn through her award-winning website at [www.erospirit.ca](http://www.erospirit.ca/) and by following her Facebook blog. ## What You’ll Learn About Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening $ “We have to go beyond consent.. because it’s very common to consent to unwanted touch… we’re getting practice everyday in consenting to what we don’t really want….” $ How our collective cultural beliefs and stereotypes involving race, gender and sexual orientation affects the dynamics of our individual sexual interactions, embodied responses, and intimacy experiences. $ How being an “oddball,” bullied, and gender-queer led to Caffyn listening to her authentic Self, building self-trust around the erotic and erotic as power, and listening for her “deep yes.” $ “When I was in my 40’s, I started to get regular bodywork,.. it just opened up some energy channels, and I started to feel this – wow~ powerful, sacred, very inconvenient erotic life force energy… – I let it change me…” $ How a key to discovering and cultivating our erotic life force can involve exchanging with practitioners – to have sacred, safe, embodied explorations and “make it 100% about me and receiving…” $ How her “holy pain” made it essential for Caffyn to explore receiving whole body massage and prolonged genital massage leading to accessing the technology of her body engaging the spiritual erotic energy that flows through us all. $ How after teaching her 1st workshop, she knew : “this is what I’m meant to do… bringing together people – practicing the erotic, integrating the erotic as sacred, … feeling yourself and what your body really wants …” $ How the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education has been created and structured in ways to meet the sense of safety and pacing of the wide range of nervous systems of students – by slowing things down and providing the freedom to self-design their educational experience of erotic embodiment. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How ecstatic belonging and erotic community can be game-changers for awakening your life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/ecstatic-belonging-caffyn-jesse/) [How rewilding eros and erotic embodiment changes your relational intimacy with Self](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [How erotic sovereignty transforms your embodied power and resource ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [The principles and practices for extended lovemaking and deep relational intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we celebrate the legacy, the light, and the love that is Ka and Jesse, I've been inspired and influenced by Kahan and her somatic sexuality, works for many years, and been blessed with opportunities to connect with her personally in this last year through the Institute for the Study of Somatic sex education that she co-founded. It was actually during today's interview that I came to learn that she is retiring this month after decades of teaching, training, writing, supporting and leading somatic sex educators from around the world. So I am especially delighted and honored to share this celebration of Kaf and Jesse and all that she represents in her journey of erotic, embodiment, sexual reclamation, and service to the divine nature of ero US discovered through our divine nature, in safe, consensual connected presence with pleasure. I am very happy today to be introducing Ka and Jesse to the podcast. Those of us who've been in the field of somatic sex education know Kahan and Catherine's work as the pioneering work she's produced over the years. For those people new to somatic sex education, if you start digging around, you'll soon cross her name through her books, her videos, her. Her trainings, her online courses. She's just really been a pioneer in the field and it's such a delight to invite her to the podcast to spend some time with us today. Thanks for being here, Kain. Thank you, Rahi. And, you're such a leading light in our field, so I, it's such an honor to be on your program and to get to know you a little bit better. That's what I'm really pleased to be here. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So I wanted to share that in addition to a pioneering somatic sex educator and trainer, as well as a practitioner and author, I wanted to share some of your books that have been influential in my journey as a somatic sex educator. I dug them off my shelf. I have them right here. There's Science for Sexual Happiness, and you'll see like I've got notes throughout. When I first read this, I was really amazed because I've never come across a book that not only explains the. Neurochemistry of our sexual embodiment, so clearly, but also it's full of just incredible somatic exercises. Exercises that involve breath, movement, sound, and really inviting the reader to take inventory of our experiences, sensations, safety boundary around our. Sexual exploration. So it is such a great book. And then the other book that I took off my shelf was this one Erotic Massage for Healing and Pleasure. And I feel like it's like an A to Z around introducing anyone to. Erotic, sensual, safe and healing touch, particularly when it comes to restoring and re imprinting, touch and pleasure regarding our sexuality and genitalia. Thank you, Rahi. I should mention I've republished that erotic massage book last year under the title Intimacy Educator. Teaching through touch, so it's a little slightly updated. Mostly it's the same book that kind of takes you through erotic massage from my perspective as a sacred, intimate and intimacy educator. Trying to, as you say, talk about re imprinting and developing choice and voice, empowering us to access more ecstatic, experiences with our body, our full embodiment, but with awareness of traumas, imprint and imprint of cultural stereotypes and expectations around gender. And yeah, trying to place the erotic massage practices that we learn as sexological body workers and somatic sex educators in a bit. Of a wider context. I'm really drawing on Joseph Kramer's work and the sexological Body work training in that book, but I'm trying to just give it a bit more embedding in the context of what our souls are and what they've experienced in the social realm. Yeah, I feel like that's so important. And I should say, I believe your intimacy educator, the updated version is being made generously available as a PDF on your website. That's right. I decided to offer it as a free download during the COVID Pandemic because I was. Hearing about all these people trapped in their homes with their with their partners getting all fractious. And to me, like these practices that we do are key to evolving more loving, intimate relationships as well as our personal healing and wellbeing. I'm really interested in and new work that I'm doing and looking at like, how do these. Practices help us love each other better and differently. Yeah, and I feel like so much of that comes from the understanding of that cultural societal context that you mentioned because, we have to understand where we're starting from. And we are starting from a, an embodiment that is influenced by all of these different cultural and relational dynamics and factors, whether it's race, gender sexual orientation, like whatever it is we are holding, we are embodying our, these kind of social norms. And they're being expressed sometimes as obstacles, sometimes as. Support in our sexual intimacy. To frame it with an understanding of all of the influences that feed our sexual erotic blueprints is really phenomenal. Yes. And yeah, the whole cultural context too, where, thoughts are valued and we're cut off from our bodies and yeah, it's. It's a numbing culture that where we're supposed to operate, according to rules and roles, and not pay attention to what's going on in our body sensation. And so these like embodied practices are important. So important. So important. Yeah. And I feel like our educational system in today's day and age, just, further emphasizes that. Whenever I see, school budgets cutting, PE or art i'm like, no, for God's sake, just keep those, if anything, so I wanted to say that the intimacy educator, PDF. You can get at Cain's wonderful website, ero spirit.ca. That's E-R-O-S-P-I-R-I t.ca, where you can check out a whole range of online courses and books and articles and videos, a lot of which are being made gen available for free. So definitely go and check that. I should also say that Kain is one of the co-founders of the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education, which I wanna talk about, and the Somatic Sex Educators Association. So what strikes me, Kain, or what struck me is as I was becoming familiar with all of your various transmissions around embodied sexuality, it really becomes quite clear early on the understanding that. We are erotic embodiment is the expression of life force energy, really an expression of source energy and the explorations that you do or the illumination that you bring to spirit and sex and how. They really are this one in the same expression. I'd love to ask you if I may what were the pivotal influences in your erotic embodiment journey that illuminated for you this delicious, sacred, divine gateway that is our bodies to spirit source. I think yeah, like in, in my personal journey, I had a lot of aloneness and isolation and like being an oddball and different, and bullied and excluded being like queer and gender queer and just like coming from a family of origin that was. Pretty troubled. And so I learned to listen like to myself and have that kind of self trust and that, like around the erotic was confirmed by I think Audrey Lord. Uses of the erotic as power. That was a essay I came upon early in life that just it was like such a deep yes for me. James Baldwin was another early influence. And then like finding queer culture where, erotic energy cultivation was. Part of who and how we were and like we were creating like this alternative radical culture that felt like really, oh, yes, this is a deep yes for me to keep on following. And yeah, in my own personal journey, it wasn't till I was into my forties, I had. A wild misspent youth, I settled down into just living very temp down erotically. But then when I was in my forties, I had started to get regular body work and you'll understand this 'cause you work with energy channels. It was, it just opened up some energy channels and I just start to feel like this. Wow. Powerful, sacred, very inconvenient, like erotic life force energy and like, how do I find expression for that? And with that, there came a lot of memories of early life trauma. And it was like they were all wound up together. And yeah. That, the person that I was receiving body work from I wasn't in any way prepared to cope with it and it, didn't Wow. To go well with them. But I was like, oh, there must be something here. I was able to trust that my own journey and be guided by my body and I think because of my early influences. And just found my way, like with trying a lot of things that, practitioners that were horrible and founding practitioners that were good. I found my way to Alfie Shaw, who was one of the pioneers in our field and Joseph Kramer had wonderful online offerings. And yeah. So from my little rural home on Salt Spring Island, I was able to find. Through Joseph's online offerings. This whole field of sexological body work that was, it was just starting in those days, but he had this very generous online offering and I was just like, oh, wow, this is it, and, I felt excited by just the convergence and I immediately wove with Joseph and studied his materials and worked for him for a while and helped him bring the first sexological body work training to Canada a few years later. And then was able to take it because it was right here where I live. And and just found my people where that erotic life force energy could be honored, like as sacred as powerful. And, meanwhile I was practicing, I, guided by his work and found my way to actually having a practice where I could meet people in that way. Wording that appealed to me, that felt really resonant with who I was the sacred intimacy. I couldn't meet people with my touch and with my presence to be like another human soul, like soul to soul. And and help them feel their own sacred life force energy. As the erotic and, oh yeah. I've gone on a tangent away from your question, right? No, it's beautiful. C Catherine, it's so beautiful so beautiful. It's helping me understand how in your books and in your writings and in your teachings, how that awakening in you, in your forties from. Really present, safe body contact, body touch, awakened what I'm guessing was probably a dormant force. That's it's a sleeping force in all of us. Just really a waiting for the permission for the invitation for the. The manual really. We've got this treasure in our bodies, but no one's given us the manual. Yeah, and that's what I love about your works is it's so multi-layered and complete in providing that safe space and that sacred space for the invitation to really embody this dormant force. But I love that. I love that. I love how it happened, and I love that you dove right in. I love that. It sounds like you just voraciously, drank up, ate up, read up everything that was available. You I really let it change me, I just was fortunate and also courageous enough, I guess to just let it like completely change my life and, that happened gradually where I just. Started to practice like a couple days a week, and then I got I was like, wow, this is working and I love it, yeah. On your website, there's a wonderful page of videos for people who are visiting, and I love. The breath meditations, the breath meditation videos that you both guide and demonstrate through your own body's practice. And I was curious, Kain, like during the journey of both embodiment and as a practitioner holding space for others, I'm curious what kind of the biggest ahas or turning points were for you? Because I, as I saw one of those breath videos, I wondered, oh, I wonder if. If the infinite access to our erotic potential through breath, I wonder if that was like a big aha for Kain or, or what others whether it was or not. I'm curious what those kind of junctures were for you in your journey as a practitioner. I think getting connected to a culture of that not only permissioned, but with Joseph's teachings, it's he's like very insistent that this is what you've gotta do of like self pleasuring and devote yourself to a discipline of self pleasuring and recognizing the role that breath could play in that to really bridge with the autonomic nervous system and, and to give more access to more joy and more ease, like more excited. Excited arousal, but also more calm, peacefulness, and yeah, breath. But for me also, it's been very key to find practitioners. At one time it was like I really needed to have people that. I hired that I knew and this is still important for me to occasionally do to just hire someone to like work with me because then it's like a hundred percent about me and help me get through these portals to something more. Joyful, like we come up against these barriers, like and, we need sometimes a teacher guide to to really take us through, but also to have exchanges and have people that weren't my, I didn't have joint bank accounts with and wasn't trying to make home with and everything, but to Right. To have like exchanges with other people on this journey of erotic empowerment Yeah. To support me in this sort of, counter normative practice of cultivating ecstasy. And then to feel like the relational joys of that. That can be, how we can cultivate a real. Beautiful friendships and intimacy and enjoyment of the erotic together, in ways where we're really feeling like safe and grounded and empowered. And we know that, nothing's expected of us that we can't give with full heart and like we're really in that practice. And, to have those month after month and year after year of having that kind of relational. Experience, I think. That's what really changed me. I that's like a totally walking into a totally different world. I just hear so many exciting, important themes that you mention there. Certainly. The consistency, the regularity of the practice. It's it's learning to play exotic, exquisite music through the vessel that is our body, and it does require that kind of devotion and consistency to become familiar, not only to the kind of wide range. Energetic, physiological, chemical, emotional parts of our body, as, 'cause they're changing day by day and year by year as well. So it's really becoming so familiar with them that we can sense and intuit and start to listen to, how they're changing and what their needs are. But the other thing I hear Kahan that was really important was having. A space and a time where you're just receiving and not responsible for anything else. Yeah, I'm sure all practitioners have seen this, but with clients who are in relationships, it seems rare for people to have the shared experience of one person having no responsibility, but just to receive sensation and inviting their partner to just give and explore and isn't that transformative for couples, right? Yes. It's yeah, just teaching to. Take turns. Don't always try and make it like a high intensity, same time. Interaction like. Right where your attention and kind of your sensory awareness is split, but where you can be a hundred percent devoted to just receiving. And what that can open up in the body. Oh yeah. Which it's, yeah. Which it sounds like was, a real instrumental role played in your journey just to make sure you had those experiences of finding practitioners you felt safe with to receive from? Lucky me, I have vulvodynia, so I have like genital pain that really inhibits me having any kind of penetrative sex, that kind of had to be off the table. And I think that's another reason why it's my pain, which is, I've struggled with through the decades, but but I call it now like a holy pain because it, it made it essential that i, for my body and my being, it's there, there's like a contraction and a closure and. My body was guiding me you need a different kind of setup. And then when I found it like this, take turns and have a long, like whole body massage and then go into some creative genital stimulation that's prolonged. And that's that's really touching all of the. Anatomy and, guide to, to feel the pain and the armoring and then, it'll gradually release and gently open and, to have these. Embodied experience. They just are not accessible in any other way, and for my body, it was just like, okay. This is really like a huge difference, like to access, just the technology of our body, which is also. The technology of the spiritual and the accessing this amazing energy that flows through us when we can cultivate it. Wow. Tell me a bit about you and your journey. Rahi. I want to know more about like how did you come to these practices and Oh, sure. Sure. I just, I did wanna, I did wanna reflect back that it is amazing that the Nia invited such a vast exploration of terrains that may never have been touched into or explored otherwise. Yeah, I probably would've just, found. A much more kind of ordinary sexual experiences if they'd been accessible to me. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So my journey essentially I came out of my mom's womb with very crooked legs. She massaged and lotioned them every day until they grew straight, which took about three years. So that was my first language was receiving that kind of touch. And so naturally expressing love to my parents, I was massaging them a lot, growing up. And then, yeah, I think it was that combination of. Of touch with presence. 'cause I was really drawn to meditate different forms of meditation when I was in college. And so I found that, I mean we call it presence, but that unconditional presence with the intentional touch, what that. Does as far as unwinding or reconditioning the touch receptors and the recipient? I didn't know it at the time, like what was happening, but changes were happening in my partner and I didn't, I wanted to know what was, what actually was happening. My path first took me to different Daoist consciously circulating the energy practices. And that led me to different tantric practices. And then I was off to the races and wanting to know everything I could. But I would say like a turning point for me, I guess both as a embodied person as well as a, practitioner came from just recognizing how, malleable and how genital tissue can go from pain to pleasure. I was blown away my first tantra residential training where we did inter pelvic release work. There was no expensive machinery. We weren't at a medical facility. It was just unconditional presence. Breath, freedom to move and presence. And my partner who had survived incest as a child, she had all this pain and armor, and by the end of the week she was feeling so relaxed and so pleasurable that I was like, everyone should know how to do this. This is they should teach. I was, don't you feel this way? I'm guessing you feel this way too, Catherine, which is why you wrote your phenomenal books. Yeah. Everyone should know this. Yes. It just gets so exciting to see what seems like miracles happen and it, it's like we have all the tools within our body to. Recondition to re imprint to rewire new associations. And I wanted to ask you like, I'm imagining like as a practitioner there were so many kind of mind blowing ahas over the years. Do you recall ones that were really just changed your trajectory as a practitioner, as an educator? One I recall was the first time I ever taught a workshop. I developed this intimacy educator workshop. I had worked one-on-one and I didn't want to do workshops. The first years of practice, I really enjoyed the one-on-one work, and that was wonderful. But I got some requests for people wanted more training, like, how do I do this? Four sex workers that knew each other. They were friends and they asked me like, can we come up and stay there and do a residential training with you? And I was like why not? We could make this work. And I got a couple of other people to come and we had this six day training that I designed and I just, yeah, I'll never forget. Like at the end of it and after we went out for dinner and just walking home and it was like. Oh yes. This is what I'm meant to do. Wow. And it was a change in my practice from the one-on-one work to really including more teaching and bringing these groups together and that there was something like so magical about this, intensive where, you bring together people like. As strangers and then they weave this through these practices of oh, how do we understand the ways that we endure unwanted touch and and start to self witness and really like practice welcoming each other's choices and practice, like knowing our own desires and trusting them enough to voice them. And then practice being, introducing the erotic to that and. Integrating a sense of the erotic as sacred, as wanted, as welcome and, and then to see that happen and the changes that happen in the people and in me over, a several day period I was like, oh, I was born for this. Oh wow. Wow. Yeah. That, that's been a, such a wonderful ride in my career, to just go more into the teaching and, yeah. I've had. That for the last, 12 years or so. And that's been so wonderful. So that's a memorable. Wow, that's really what an important, what a such a blessed juncture from having resisted, giving workshop. 'cause you were so enjoying the one-on-one. And I totally related with that because I really enjoy one-on-one sessions, but there is, I don't know how to describe it. It's like a mysterious alchemical. Energetic, collaborative, something that happens in a workshop with a group of embodied beings where, as you said, all everyone's past sexual experiences come to the soup to be recognized, to be witnessed, to be honored, to be transformed. And it seems to me that the power of being witnessed in transformation Yeah, it's unlike anything else. And then to have kind of the. Erotic energy to support and nourish that transformation. Wow. Yeah, we get, we experience the erotic in such boxes of, like like relationship boxes and privacy and scripts and everything and just, it's just like how do you create. An environment and like where you actually get to practice something really different and practice oh, like all of you is welcome and no choice is mandatory, or there's no script here. It's just really about feeling yourself and what you actually want and all your grief is welcome, all your. Armor and your pain is, welcome your dysfunctions, our creative adaptations that we can respect and we can cherish. And to have that counter normative experience of the erotic Yeah. Outside the one-on-one box. I, which I love the one-on-one. Work, but yeah, I think it's like. There's something very special here yeah, totally. As you were sharing that kain, it occurred to me that as a species, because we are a tribal species and a social species, for millennia, healing was done in community and in tribal kind of circles. And so there must be something deep within our psyche and our DNA that responds to that. And the thing that really strikes me is. Especially in one-on-one sessions, and I think most practitioners can relate to this is so many clients think they're the only one that has certain fantasies. Yeah. Or certain hangups or certain whatever. But in a group, they recognize, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one. Everybody has it. Yeah. Something I want to pick up on Kain is you mentioned in the group retreat, just the importance of voice and choice. For me, I, it was really like in my one-on-one sessions, recognizing how safe the body can feel once. It has, the evidence that its voice is gonna be honored and responded to was really very illuminating for me. And I know in all of your work, in your books, like it's such a core theme. I think it's one of the three, three stool legs that you speak about is the voice and choice. And I just wanted to underscore that because I feel like in our society, the way we're. Often parented in families, like it's without a choice of what our body experiences and how revolutionary it can be in the reclamation of our erotic pleasure. Yeah. Yeah, I think this is key, like how we, we use the word consent as oh, we need consent, but it's actually more than that. We have to go beyond consent because it's very common to consent. Unwanted touch or touch, like we consent to, I have a pelvic exam every year. We consent to all kinds of touch exchanges. But we're getting practice every day in consenting to what we don't really want. Yeah. And if we are going to actually. Welcome each other's souls and cultivate this much more empowered and transformative relational and erotic experience. We have to go beyond consent and this like notion like to practice noticing what you want. And then giving voice to it, and then having that expression welcomed by people who aren't going to hear your requests as a command. There's so much appeasing going on and threat management in the ordinary relational environment. That, somebody expresses something they want, either it's ignored or else. And overridden, or else it's received as a command by someone who goes into appeasement and it's just oh, whatever you want, dear. And they're not in full heart with their gift of touch. I know you are. Empowered as I am by Betty Martin's work. And she's just done so much of helping us understand the subtleties of like where things go wrong and in in touch exchanges and practicing the three minute game that she developed and bringing those tools and understandings into our work has been so key for me. Yeah. But I think, the appeasement or the fond response, I think it's not so well understood or acknowledged in our mainstream culture. Yeah. Certainly not within the field of sacred sexuality or sexuality and intimacy and yeah. I think. I was speaking to a psychotherapist who is African American, who's biracial, and those of us who were from marginalized cultures growing up especially are very good at the fond response just to, have a sense of belonging and not being ostracized. And so it's really so important, I think, for. Us to recognize the fond response in ourselves because so much of consent could be a passive reflexive consent out of a fear of not belonging rather than a real authentic Yes. Yeah. And how key to bring these understandings of so much of how racism expressed is through non-consensual touch through sex, sexual violence, through sexualizing, sexual stereotypes and like these all come into play, when we come into. Touch exchange yes, we need to name these dynamics and make them conscious and clear and like, how are we navigating this? And, unless we do that, like they're like, quick send, just pulling us down. Yes. And whether like in our own responses or how we're trained, to behave by the dominant culture. Just like to navigate a social relational space where being racialized is endangering you and it's endangering you as a person with Asian ethnicity different from a black. Woman or a black man will be like, differently endangered. And there's all kinds of like really important stuff to unpack around what's going on in how the social space we're navigating and how we're trained. To show up in a, and we'll be blind to three quarters of what's going on. Yeah. That's why slowing it down and actually practicing and then getting even more curious and like having these day after day like experiences of actually having. That welcome is so key. It is. It's so key and it helps. It just deepens our insights into our human species certainly expands our ability to connect, relate and into intimate with. The range of people we may want to, but also speaks to really being a holistic society, certainly as practitioners and as a field that invites all beings. There's so many things I respect and really love about the institute that you've co-founded, the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education, because I feel like the training, I feel like what you've created and the structure and the pacing and interwoven the. Societal realities, like what you're speaking to, how race, how trauma of marginalized people affects, like our whole society. It's interwoven through all of the curriculum really. I'm curious how 'cause you had mentioned moments ago that. After working with Joseph Kramer you, with his support, you started the first Canadian training program. I feel like there are things unique about the training at the institute. I'm wondering what you feel like essential and where you see the field of somatic sex education moving into in the future. Because you've seen it sounds like the whole kind of evolution of it, in the last 20, 30 years. Yeah, I can only speak for the institute. We teach really differently in our training than somatic sex education is taught in other parts of the world. And what we decided to do after, teaching in the old model for several years, I was just like, I can't teach this way anymore because it was very, like intense and like just threw everybody in a hopper for six months of super intense training. And then meanwhile, we're telling people and trying to teach them about the nervous system and how we need to slow down and we need to establish like a embodied sense of like safety, safe enough to be brave kind of feeling in the body. And how that can only come like when we slow down and when we practice. And then we're just like going through this. Like so intense experience. So anyway i, we just decided that we had to design a different way. And so we designed a way where basically anyone can come in and take an online introductory program. It's priced really accessibly, I think, and there's Bipoc scholarship fund as well. And then get. Introduce to the field gradually, figure out their relationship with it, do some of the practices, meet some of the different practitioners. Then we would have the intense like in-person experience but only for a week. And then, people could self-pace themselves and then we would go into the. Old curriculum, which was more like the like high intensity do a whole bunch of body work practices. With guidance and curriculum evolved more by Joseph Kramer, which we've adjusted. Partly, but for, that's our third course now. So like we're really trying to resource people with some slowing things down. And people can take the program over several years. That's some people are going, finish it in one year. But it's just in chunks where you can pace yourself. Both, according to your nervous system, your, what works for your body and your learning to stay in your neural learning zone, but also your finances, yeah. I'm really proud of the curriculum that we've designed and the way that just feels like, oh, our students are just. Magical beings that are finding us from all over the world. And I feel so excited by by what's what's evolving. There's the institute. Yeah. And yeah it's retiring next month, so I won't be teaching there anymore. But I feel like, oh it's really, good to go. And yeah the team that's there and the brilliant students and new leadership coming up, it's wow is right. So next month is your retirement. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I need to ask you like, how are you feeling, Catherine, about retiring next month? Oh, I'm feeling all the things, a little bit scared, vulnerable, excited. I feel my, my spirit and my body is just demanding of me that I have more spaciousness and more peacefulness and just yeah, there, there's a definite. I can't not do this. But it's also a little bit scary to, go from being busy and important to just being a has been so well being a an inspiring and inspiring pioneer and embodied vessel for. For life force to come through you in all of the infinite creative ways. She, I'm sure, can't wait to use you to paint her next painting. I think it'll be really exciting. Kathryn, I've got projects and things that I'm doing and wanna do and yeah, so you might not have seen the end of me. That'd probably be another book or two, but but it'll be. Like related to this field and informed by it, but not. Not confined to it, ah, I see. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds very exciting. So not confined to it, but related to it so you can expand beyond what has been the field of focus. Yeah, it feels like there's other things calling me yeah. Oh, that's very exciting that freedom and sense of permission you're giving yourself sounds really exciting. Yeah. And just, more time non-doing so. Yes. Absolutely. Kain, I really want to acknowledge the role that you've played in the field of somatic sex education. I think it's phenomenal just hearing your story. Thank goodness for all the challenges that you've experienced in your body and in the kind of social normative culture that has. That has invited you to channel all of this incredible wisdom and discovery and create this structure for all of us to benefit from and to grow from and through as well. As I said, your books were really wonderful for me. As I was entering the field and there, there weren't, it's still a relatively new field, so your books were. We're very instructive and very inspiring, and you're leaving behind this institute that is incredible. What you've done is you've created a, an institute with a curriculum and a pace that honors the where your students are at, which is what we do within sessions. So it's really a macrocosm of a microcosmic session and. I'm excited to see what comes from you and through you next, but I'm so delighted to have you on the show at this juncture, to really acknowledge the incredible trail that you've blazed for all of us that are honoring the lineage that, that, that's been co-created for us. Rawhi I wanna thank you so much and just to say. Watching you and learning from you in your webinars recently, the careful presence, the knowledge, knowledgeable touch, the really going at the pace of trust and like the embodied wisdom guiding you in how you show up with people and how like you offer. Work and then how you also teach, like you bring that as a teacher. And like in our conversation here, it's really evident that yeah, it's like you're living the dream of being in a grounded nervous system and, being able to show up for others, like with this focused, loving presence like and to offer that through your knowledgeable hands. Yeah, I wanna thank you for being you and for Yeah. Having this wonderful conversation and really to honor what you manifest and embody and how inviting that is for me, just as a human, but also as a teacher. And I understand that, and I love thinking of you as like a. A little boy receiving that kind of touch from your mother and the holding environment that you were able to receive and now can pass on to others that it's so profound. And I think like when we integrate the erotic with that holding environment, it's oh, all of you becomes. Safe enough to be brave and to heal and to unfold like this. Not only our child self, that shows up always as we work with clients or as we show up in relationship, but then also our adult self our full erotic self. And yeah. So I just wanna honor that and reflect that to you, like what you. You come in with and embody. So thank you so much. Thanks Catherine. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. To close out the podcast I'd like to see if there is a somatic exploration that may want to be led for our listeners. Let's just tune in and see if there's something that wants to come forward. We spoke of welcoming the erotic as sacred life force energy, so I could just guide a little bit of a visualization to invite folks to do that if that feels like. Something they'd like to explore for a few minutes with us. So yeah, I like to always begin by just feeling my feet on the floor and just noticing, maybe wiggling my toes and rocking back and forth a bit on my feet and just feeling like roots are going down from the soles of my feet down. Into the floor and into the crawl space and into the earth below, through the rocks and through the crystal layer and just feeling, seeking the heat and seeking the warmth at the core of the earth, and then bringing that up. And you can use your breath or your imagination, or a combination of both. Bring some warmth up from the roots and missles of your feet and bring it up into your legs and bring it up to the top of your legs, into your pelvis, and just feeling that warmth. Fill your pelvic bowl, that bowl there as you breathe in. And just noticing with your breath that there's a little expansion of that bowl. Our pelvis is actually made to expand with every breath that we take in, and then contract a little bit with every breath that we take out. We can't always feel that, but we can always imagine that we feel that just breathing in and feeling the expansion and breathing out, and feeling the contraction and feeling the swirl of warmth from the core of the earth swirling in the pelvis. And then now if it feels right, and just bringing your thought, your awareness up into your hands, and reaching up into the sky and wiggle your fingers, reaching up into the air, into the light. And see if it feels right to breathe in through your fingers, some energy, and breathe it in down your arms, into your shoulders. Breathe it down into your chest. And a little bit lower into your belly and all the way down into your pelvis. And again, just feeling the pulse of your pelvis as you breathe in and your pelvis opens, and as you breathe out and your pelvis. Contracts and comes together opening with the in breath and contracting with out breath, and letting the energy of the sky and the energy of the soil meet and swirl around there in that beautiful bowl of your pelvis. If it feels nice, you can use your hands to touch the outside of the bowl and use your awareness and your breath to massage the inside of the bowl and just noticing any sensation and welcoming it. Welcoming at home. And when you feel done, just coming back into connection with each other, me and Rahi, me, and Rahi and all of you, and just feeling the connection and feeling the swirl of energy in our pelvis. Just rocking and coming back into being ready and a little bit warmed up for whatever comes next for you. That's beautiful. Thanks so much, Catherine. That was really lovely. Notice how you're feeling in your body right now. What sensations are present in your pelvis and in your heart space? Notice how blessed we are to have been graced by lighthouses such as kain and her creative and gracious life force. I would love for us to consider sending Kain a blessing, a prayer, some good juju, a smile for her path as her journey continues to unfold. And if you happen to visit her wonderful site that honestly has so many amazing free resources, consider dropping her a note or perhaps an email about how her works may have affected you. And maybe there are other angels that have supported your erotic embodiment as your sexual journey has unfolded. A teacher, a counselor, a best friend, a lover, or someone who inspired you with their example of healthy erotic embodiment, who encouraged you to explore your sexual nature without shame, who reflected back to you, your perfection exactly as you are. How about we take a moment this week to express our gratitude to them as well? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening --- ### [Rewilding Eros: Healing Shame, Grief & Sexual Expression](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-healing-shame-grief/) **Published:** January 29, 2026 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Somatic sexuality coach Victor Warring reveals how grief and eros are inseparable forces, why your innate erotic intelligence is a birthright that culture has systematically suppressed, and how living fully embodied becomes an act of activism. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe NOW](#subscribe) ##### **PODCAST EPISODE:** # Rewilding Eros: Healing Shame, Grief & Sexual Expression ### *with Victor Warring* ## In This Episode We explore how shame and grief shape sexual expression and how reconnecting to eros restores aliveness with Victor Warring. You’ll learn how emotional healing supports authentic sexuality. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/Victor12.webp "Victor12 | Rahi Chun") ### Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) In Victor’s own words: I studied anthropology in my undergraduate work because I was interested in humans through the wider species lens not just the culture specific ways that I had been taught were human universals. I began to connect to my understanding of humans as animals and the wisdom of our animals selves that we work so hard to shake off and cover up in our modern domestication. My graduate work was in Somatic Psychology, bringing the body into my understanding of the human psyche; that there is no distinction between the two. Body *is* mind and has only been separated in a cultural belief system only a few thousand years old compared to the nearly 300,000 years of being human. I also have years of play and discovery in dance/movement, massage/bodywork, improvisation, art, theater which all inform my work and offerings. Studying somatics, somatic sexuality education and sexological bodywork was my way of integrating all of my interests studies and passions; movement, embodiment, creativity, improvisation, biology, anthropology, human evolution, diversity, anti-oppression, sex positivity, erotic and pleasure activism. Woven together, this has become the ever evolving work of ReWild Eros. ### Victor’s work & contact: [RewildEros.com](https://www.rewilderos.com/) ## What You’ll Learn About Shame, Grief & Sexual Expression $ Grief and Eros as Inseparable Forces – Victor describes grief and eros as “space-time” or “cousins that hold hands,” explaining how one becomes a window into the other in rewilding work $ Innate Erotic Intelligence as Birthright – The concept that we’re born as erotic creatures with natural pleasure-seeking intelligence that gets “squashed down” by erotophobic culture $ The Subtractive Healing Approach – Victor’s process focuses on removing obstacles and conditioning rather than “fixing” something broken—chipping away at what interferes with natural erotic expression $ Working with Death as Gateway to Life – His formative experience at an AIDS project taught him to sit with death and grief, which profoundly shaped his capacity to hold space for eros $ Understanding the oppressions of cultural anthropology and how historical and societal forces systematically suppress erotic embodiment across generations and communities $ The Color vs. Black-and-White Orgasm Metaphor – The profound grief that emerges when people realize they’ve been living with a fraction of their erotic potential for decades $ Unmetabolized Grief Blocking Pleasure – How childhood losses can create unconscious fear of feeling too good, preventing full orgasmic surrender $ Erotic Embodiment as Activism – How living fully in your body becomes an act of cultural resistance when society demands you tone down your aliveness $ The Coffee Table Vulva Book Test – How small acts of owning your erotic truth (like displaying body-positive books openly) as everyday activism $ Rewilding Beyond Traditional Relationships – Victor’s inclusive work with non-monogamous structures and diverse relationship configurations as rewinding beyond traditional relationships ## ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. What if the grief you've been avoiding is actually the doorway to your most profound pleasure in today's conversation? Somatic Sexuality, coach Victor warring shares how his experiences sitting with death in the AIDS epidemic. Taught him that grief and aeros are inseparable cousins. And why? Reconnecting with your innate erotic intelligence requires grieving the decades spent living in black and white when full color was always available. Victor explains why healing isn't about fixing what's broken, but removing layers of cultural conditioning that have buried our birthright. And how even small acts like keeping a book of vulvas on your coffee table become radical activism when you refuse to dim your aliveness. I am very excited to have Victor warring to the podcast today. Victor, hold space for a really incredibly. Somatic transformative experience that is called Rewild Eros, or the Rewilding of Eros, and I find that his background is really fascinating. It's a combination of hands-on sexological body work and trauma-informed sexology. He has a past career as a psychotherapist and also a background in theater improvisation and movement, as well as cultural anthropology. So really understanding the scope. How past societal oppressions historically and culturally affect our embodiment and our current erotic expression. Victor, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. It's always interesting to hear the reflection of who you are from someone else's mouth. Oh, that's, that sounds pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really interesting weave and it makes sense to me. It's really interesting, this cultural anthropology background. Along with understanding how that lives in the body, both individuals and as a collective. Now I really want to get into that and what IL Rose is. I always love as a jumping off point to ask guests like, what for you, what you hold, the way you hold space and what you hold the life force that you are holding space to. Be released and unleashed and really reconnected. It's a very unique thing and I'm, I want to ask, what have been the pivotal events or experiences in your journey that have informed what and how you do this now? Great. Yeah. Let me see. Maybe I'll start with my time at Ropa University. Ah, yes. Um, that is where I did my, my master's work in somatic psychology. And I don't know if you're familiar with Naropa at all, but for me, yeah, it was definitely, uh, I won't say it, it didn't give me something brand new. I think it just nurtured something that was already there, which is a very mindful and engaged way of sitting with people and sitting with. Big things sitting with grief that we didn't talk about that much about aeros in my graduate program, but sitting with Aeros when I graduated from Naropa and I first started being a therapist of some kind, my first work actually out outside of that was working for an AIDS project. And that was a pretty profound experience of working one-on-one with clients who were living with HIV and sitting with death. Wow. And not death that was imminent necessarily because at that point in the epidemic or the pandemic, people weren't dying as much, but sitting with the death as a, as an ever present. Possibility. Yeah. So there's a lot of other things that feel really formative to me, but that's definitely one that's really fascinating and significant because I recognize that on, on your website you shared something and it involved the role that grief plays. Yeah. In Rewilding Eras, heroes and erotic embodiment. And I'd love for you to, if you can speak on the significant role that. Metabolizing and feeling welcoming. Our grief, uh, the role that plays in the rewilding process. Yeah, absolutely. Um, oftentimes I, I will speak of grief and arrows in a similar way that, um, maybe astronomers or astrophysicists talk about space time. So grief arrows, it's almost like. They're the same thing in some ways, or they're so tightly woven together, or sometimes I describe grief and aeros as cousins that kind of hold hands, walk around together. So oftentimes one is the window into the other and vice versa. At least that's been my experience in my own body and also working with people. And there's a lot of ways that this comes up in the work. That I do, but, but only one, one way that comes up a lot and that is when people are rewilding the arrows. Yes. In other words, re reconnecting to this piece of them that is, it's their lineage, it's their birthright. It is intrinsic to who they are, to who we are. Mm-hmm. While we're reconnecting to that, but we've had a lifetime of. Disconnection from that waves of grief will come up for people. Mm-hmm. And sometimes the words are something like, it's like when you'd like discover this thing that you could have had and tasted for your entire life and you're not tasting until why now. And so that's grief. Grief. It's grief. So anyway, that's one way that it comes up. And many other sides. Yeah, it's really fascinating because it's, if you've only seen, if your orgasms have been in black and white, let's say, and then you mm-hmm. Experience it in color for the first time, the grief of recognizing, right, like what one perspective can be, I've missed out on this for 40 years and it's a necessary kind of grieving or moving through the emotional material in order to fully embrace. The color of what your orgasms are like now on an ongoing basis. Yeah. I love that analogy of color. I was thinking about the Wizard of Oz and Yes. Stepping out. Yes, yes. But yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We have a very, we, me, you, our culture that's as a very narrow window, a very narrow per perception of what we see our heroes and our sexuality as, and what we allow ourselves. To, to have, and when we start broadening it out, it's, it's incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible. And I would say also, I recognize that in, in some clients who are in orgasmic or are, have a block towards surrendering fully to their pleasure and orgasm, oftentimes there's like a series of grief in their young years that they haven't metabolized. And it's almost like. Um, there's one client that comes to mind who lost her grandfather, her horse, and her dog before she was age five. And because she hadn't grieved, she hadn't moved through that grief, she was afraid of feeling too good again because it, it was followed by some sort of profound loss. Yeah, absolutely. So all of that lives in the body. I wanna read a quote from your website. Oh. And then ask some questions about it. Yes, yes. Here's your words being reflected back to you. Yeah, I hope. I hope they're good ones. Yes, they are. So on your site, this particular sentence jumped out at me. So Madox Sexuality Coaching can help you reconnect with your innate erotic intelligence. Support you in crafting a more erotically inclusive ecosystem and help you live a more embodied, playful, and pleasurable life. So I wanted to, for our audience members Yeah. I wanted to invite you to invite to, to define or share for you what is innate erotic intelligence. Yeah. And especially with it, especially within the context of how we've evolved and devolved evolved as a species. Yeah. Yeah. Two, two things here. One is at the sort of per, I'll say the personal level, the individual eye level. Yes. In innate erotic intelligence, we, since conception, we are, we are these erotic creatures. In utero, we are, we're alive, we're seeking pleasure. We move towards pleasure. We typically move away from pain. We know, or we tend to know what we like and we're moving and squirming and all of that stuff. So that, that is, that's when I say that's your birthright. It's like that is in us and it's in us from the very beginning. And it's not until we, until we come out into the world and have a lot of other forces working on us, and especially in a culture like ours that's erotiphobic, that we start to get that squashed. Squashed down. So when I talk about in innate erotic intelligence, it's really going, this has been with you from the very beginning. From the very start of, and it's still there. You are intelligent in that way. Mm-hmm. So when we are working together, the process is usually a subtractive one. It's moving things out of the way. Mm-hmm. That interfere with that rather than adding something into something that's broken. That's how I put it with people. So that's on the individual personal level and then on the species level, on the, on the evolutionary level. Yeah. We are primates, we are one of five ex extent species of great apes on the planet. Yes, yes. And our particular flavor of Great ape is very communal, very, very social. Very sensual and erotic and uses connection and eros and sexuality in, in very pro-social weaving kinds of ways. And so, mm-hmm. That is our innate intelligence as well. Mm-hmm. And that has been interfered with, in my opinion, by the way, we have chosen to do. Society, our culture right now, which is very separate and very afraid of Eros. Mm-hmm. And has turned that fear into, or actually eros and sexual energy can actually be dangerous. Not because it's innately dangerous, but be be because we turned it into a dangerous thing. Yeah. It's been weaponized in a way, again, like our very primal nature. Has been shamed and I don't know, rigidified like com. Yeah. Compartmentalized and punished on in a lot of, by a lot of societal forces. But I love, I love that you really are chipping away at the conditioning that has restricted or limited one's organic life force to have the space to breathe and to attune to itself again. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. I love seeing these ultrasounds where they showed the, in the womb babies are pleasuring themselves. Oh yeah. You know that is, yeah. Yep. We're touching genitals. We're having fun. We're right. We know it's nothing we know. We know. Totally. And I love seeing infants just like preschool or kindergarten and they're just crawling all over each other just for connection and aliveness and joy. And it's really odd, isn't it? As a society, if you think about our primal nature that does. Lean and move towards connection, pleasure, joy, aliveness. Mm-hmm. When you look at all of the societal kind of day-to-day ways that we compartmentalize ourselves and separate ourselves and formalize connection, it's really almost against, it is against our nature. Yeah. Yeah. We've, we. We've done a number on ourselves. Yes. And, and so when I started talking about this, then I started talking about the realms of, because I also use the words decolonizing. Mm-hmm. And it's really acknowledging that Yeah. A again, we have come to a place, many of us as humans, where who we are as animals has been, has been very truncated. And so there's a part, there's part of a sense of yearning that's like really pushing for. What we know to be true, but in pushing for that, yeah, we, there's a lot of social rep social repercussions for that as well. So at my best, when I'm working with folks and with myself, because I'm, we're all in this, we're all in this, yeah, it's. It's a gentle, as gentle as possible practice of leaning into those places where we have been truncated and not blowing off the line. Mm-hmm. When people hear the word wild and rewild wild. Yeah. But hopefully it's gentle so that people can then titrate and discern what aspects about who I am. Do I want to take more ownership of and weave into my life? More, and I really honor the fact that not, sometimes people do this work and they don't, there's like mm-hmm. Some aspects of them that are like, oh, this is actually a really true part of me, but I'm too scared, or I don't want, or it goes against my values about what I learn sexuality is, and I try to honor that too. It's balance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a balance. I love that you're underscoring this because it's true. The term rewild looks like someone, like a line that's been in a cage and you're opening the cage door and it's going crazy. Right. And I love that. Yeah. To really integrate more and more aliveness in the body, there needs to be a titration and a safe space and a leaning in, and it, it's a really, it's a sacred process that that requires a sense of safety and moving slowly. As slow as the nervous system can handle, right? Yeah. The way I think of it sometimes is we, another word to put in here is domestication. We have domesticated ourselves. Yes, we are. We are different than wild humans. If you look at wild humans around the world. Under gatherers, village based people, uhhuh. And so if you think about it, like other animals that we have, domesticated like livestock or, yes dogs. Dog dogs used to be wolves, uhhuh. But if you just take a dog and throw it out into the wild, it will die most likely. Or have a really hard time because that process is, it's a slow process or a cow. Mm-hmm. Go, Hey cow, you are free. Be wild. They're not gonna make it. So for we humans. It's a similar thing. You can't just do it all at once. So it's, let's move slowly and feel into what's possible. That's great. That's so great. The other term that stood out from what I read on your site was an erotically inclusive ecosystem. And so I wanna, I'm wondering, I want, I was curious whether that reflects the role community plays in an erotically vibrant society or tribe and, 'cause you mentioned community and connection before. Can you speak a little bit to the role community plays in nourishing an erotically inclusive ecosystem? And what actually do you mean by that? The ecosystem. Yeah, so ecosystem, or ecosystem. So what I mean is since we, since we take Eros and we take sexuality and we put it into these like small little compartments in our life and go, this belongs here, and it, it comes out when, when we're done raising kids. We've done our yoga practice and after work and blah, blah, all the things. Yeah. So since we've truncated it so small, we tend to live in ecosystems in our homes, in life, at work or whatever, that are pretty empty of the presence. Mm-hmm. Of, of heroes. And so when I talk about Eros inclusivity, I talk about. Let's play with that. So what's it like to live in a home or have a home space where aeros is included in your space? So that could mean a lot of things. I love going into people's homes, uh, and coaching and be like, okay, let's eroticize this place, whatever that means to you. So it could mean having like. Colors and textures and things that are vibrant and tasty and alive, like more available in space. It could mean having your sex toys or things that are more erotic out and visible and available rather than hidden away. In some drawer, it could mean. It could mean books. Mm-hmm. It could, I mean, and that's a physical environment and it really challenges people in that way because again, we think this should be hidden. Oh no, I kids, my kid sees my vibrator sitting out the, what were they? What will they think? Probably think you're a sexual person and Right. And if you have a good enough connection with them, they'll know. Leave mom or dad's things alone. Sure. So and so anyway, that's the physical environment and then on the emotional connective level. Yeah. An erotically inclusive environment means starting to have to invite in community to invite in connection, where all that stuff, where all that stuff is live, where Aeros is actually welcomed. Yes. Not as a threat. But actually as communities, so what I'll say often is that is actually the glue of community. Mm-hmm. If you have a community that doesn't have eros flowing through it, it tends to feel more like a neighborhood or apartments or Yeah. Or whatever. How we typically live and eros that is allowed to flow in community. It doesn't mean that, and this is where people get scared. They're like, do you mean everyone's having sex with everyone? I'm like, no. But it means people are alive. And they have access to their bodies and they're willing to share that aliveness with other people in that are near them and willing to be loving and willing to have grief and willing to have actual conflict that's repairable. That, that all of these things are available in ways that we often don't do it. That that in our society, everything's so compartmentalized. It's fascinating. As you're, as you were sharing that, I was just imagining like the workplace culture, meaning like offices or like a law firm where, you know what I'm hearing you share to me it's like allowing your, allowing connection to flow from an embodied place. I think it is inherently erotic. Yeah, when people are embodied, because that's our aliveness is our life force. And our life force is erotic by nature. And so if you just allow, if you're attuned to it and you allow yourself to connect from that place, doesn't mean you have to act on it. Doesn't mean it has to lead to anything but that authentic connection. Human to human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the, one of the, one of the big places that this really shows up and is, I think is really off. Harmful for us, or painful for us is in the realm of relationship, in the realm of, and particularly in di, in diadic relationships. So it's another aspect here where people, we've been trained by our culture that what it means to be in relationship mm-hmm. Needs to be in a dyad. That's very closed ly, that is very ensconced within itself and basically where whatever we call community is to be met in this community of two people. Hmm. And to me, that is not an erotically sustainable model. And, but it's painful for people because all of our stories about intimacy and what intimacy means is this. Yeah. And the very thing that we go, oh, this is intimacy, tends to work against intimacy and long-term sex and sexuality. Not all the time, a lot of people do this, and your mileage may there, but another, but another piece of this erotically inclusive environment is going, what happens when you loosen up this and allow energy to move out? And again, it doesn't, people get scared because, uh. Monolithic monogamy is like what we're, what our culture is based on. And anything that chips away at that, we're like, what do you mean something's gonna happen? Right? N no, but it means having more availability and what does it mean to to, to loosen that up a bit so that we get a lot of different tech connection and the energy and love and touch and whatever from a lot of different people. Uhhuh and counterintuitive counterintuitively to us. What it tends to do is it makes more arrows available. And sexuality available for mm-hmm. The people in a dyad. So I love what you're sharing here. I wanna explore it a bit further because like when you say this, for people listening, Victor is putting his is together this to, what is this? Yeah. To reflect a dyad and this, this mon dyad in monogamy is a relatively, when you look at the human species, it's a relatively new concept. It's very new. Uhhuh. I'm, yeah. Like when you look at indigenous societies, how we lived as a species all over the world to not only survive, but to thrive. I would love to, I would love our audience to understand what you've witnessed in how diads are more deeply nourished when the dyad opens up to gotcha. That ecosystem that is really erotically healthy. Gotcha. Yeah. When we are enmeshed, when we're so close that all we, that we all we see is the other person, or sometimes we barely even feel ourselves anymore, our nervous systems, I think find it harder to like really to feel turned on, to feel alive, to feel like. As Esther Perel talks about, like there's no distance to cross. And she talks about it in terms of like nerve cells, like literally like nerve cells, if there's a synapse, if there's a little bit of distance, nerve signal will cross. If they were like right up against each other, doesn't work. And if they're too far away, they don't feel each other anymore. Wow. And so to take that analogy out to our relations Yeah. When we're so enmeshed. Again, we tend to die, not literally, but erotically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so when there's more space, you literally, you see your partner from different perspectives. Yeah. And the thing, and the things that felt charged about how you connected with them in the first place are more visible. So for instance, when like you're, you're with your partner. And again, I'm gonna steal from Esther Perel again. Yes. Yes. If you're with your partner and your and your partner's up on stage, giving a presentation or being a musician or whatever, and you can feel how the people in the room, the rest of your tribe, whatever the audience is loving them, is going, oh my God, that is. That person is giving us their gifts and doing amazing, beautiful things, and it's moving me. And then you go, oh yeah, that's right. That's why I love that person. I'm a little bit further away and I'm available. I'm accepting the love that's coming towards them from other people. Mm-hmm. And then when you expound that and then, then it's all between a lot of different people exchanging, sharing their gifts. I I, some of this is my conjecture, but I just think it leads to more, more access to arrows. So again, it's counterintuitive for the way that we think, but what we take the relational dyad and we take it off its pedestal as the end all, be all thing of how we ultimately relate and the thing that we just ache for and finally get and hold onto. Tightly when we, when we get beyond that and go, yeah, this connection is important to me. I love it, and it's a connection within another whole network of connections that I have. Yeah, we actually have more of what we want. Yeah. Yeah. I love that, that that representation that, that Esther Perel drew, and also like just the physiological like explanation of how the nervous system responds when there's more spaciousness. Yeah, and like psychologically and psychosexually, I think it's a lot to rely on one other sexual being's history of experiences to, to stimulate and meet and align and engage with with ours. And this is not to say that you can't have. Really clear. It's important to have really clear agreements in any relationship, but to be reflected and stimulated by different sources of life force in order to bring out the fullness of your authentic life force is really great. It's similar to being intellectually stimulated like we. As a society, we kind of prize that, oh, this person is so open to different ways of thinking and yet when it comes to embodiment and our erotic energy society has like a different standard. Yeah, we really do and, and I am really part of my activism, so to speak, really going, yes. Hey, let's, let's challenge this because it's, it, it's really, it's really painful. Actually, it can be fun. Like I can talk about this lightly. Mm-hmm. But it's actually incredibly painful for people. Mm-hmm. And outside of that, it's actually reflective of, it's reflective of cultures, reflective of societies that are actually deep grief and deep pain, and expressing that. In a lot of ways that I'm an aqua, I'm an aquarium, so I tend to get big. Yeah. Yes. But expressing that grief and that pain and that unmoved grief and pain in ways that we look at with a lot of the things that are happening right now in our world. Yeah. We become acquirers and takers and owners of other people's bodies and all of that. Yeah. And to me, that's all related. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'd love to explore that a little bit as a fellow aquarium, the 'cause what you're speaking to, I'm realizing as we're discussing this, that the, that what's now a norm, hetero norm around the dyad being exclusive and the way that norm restricts and represses our erotic aliveness as a society. There's so many current day systems that repress our erotic aliveness as a individually and collectively, but that seems to be one right that. Heteronormative dyad structure that, I don't know if it comes, I read somewhere that it was a Catholic church that actually created marriage in order to keep property ownership within families. But there is so much of that. So we touched on that, the kind of workplace culture where people's erotic energy is really contained and disallowed. What are, what are the other ways that you see, there must be so many, especially in the context of how we've evolved as a species where we're really cutting off our erotic aliveness and energy. Yeah. So, so these are really big, these are really big questions. Yeah. And there are so many, there are so many ways. So a minute ago you were talking about like, when did this happen? Was it the church or the, I, I just think it's older than that. And. So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna speak to something and say that I'm not a definitive expert in this. I studied anthropology and evolution and all those things, but anyway, there, there are a lot of people that can speak in a lot of different ways about this. What I will say is, generally speaking, we as humans have been genetically modern humans for about 350,000 years. I think now keeps getting a little bit longer. We've been doing domestication of ourselves for about 15,000 or so years. And by domestication what I mean is starting to get sedentary, starting to grow crops and have villages and cities that were, that became just sedentary. Yeah, and we started owning property and we started having to defend. Resources that we created, that we had surplus of, and then we started to have leaders to do all that. And then we started to go, oh, whose property is this? Oh, it's mine. How do I ensure that? How do I ensure knowing that, oh, I need to control X, Y, and Z is usually a woman's sexuality in order to ensure where my inheritance is going, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's that old. I think, and so what I see is we're never gonna, we're never gonna be hunter gatherers again. Like a lot. I look at hunter gatherers and I look at our cousins like Bonobos. I'm like, oh my God. They have a lot of things right going there. And I think that there are things for us to learn there. We're never gonna, but we're never gonna be that again. But we're, we can be something different than what. Mm-hmm. What we're doing in a, again, I'll use the word colonized in a more colonized cultural setting. We have learned that the environment belongs to us and resources are there to be taken, and sexuality is to be experienced in very controlled ways. And we need to control other people's sexuality in order to be safe. And that includes not only sexuality, but includes people that are different in some way. Different. Those are air quotes. So people like who are L-G-B-T-Q, people who do sex in different ways, understanding that there's even something that is called sexual and erotic diversity that we do and want sex in, in myriad ways. We find it hard to tolerate. And so all of those things are woven into what I would call this domesticated or colonized, or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. Place that we've. Come that we've come to that is very different than where we come from. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for that. I love that frame because it really does succinctly capture kind of the journey of how we have become domesticated. I wanna ask you, so given all that as a backdrop, I want our audience to understand the process that you guide clients through in the rewilding. Process. Mm-hmm. I, and I love the question that also jumped out at me from your site, which is what will you discover when you allow yourself to be who you actually are? How do you hold space? If you can give our audience a sense of what the journey is, and of course it's so unique and it's so individual when a client comes to you, but if you can get, give the audience a sense of what, of, of the process, of the transformative kind of journey that that is available. Yeah. The first thing I'll say, it's a little tongue in cheek, but it's actually true, is that the first thing you encounter when you start to, to do this is shame. Yes, shame. Shame is the constant companion with this. Mm. And I'm saying something across the board that happens differently with different people in different ways. But so what we're usually invite, what we're inviting in, what I'm inviting in is someone to start pressing against the edges of what they thought was possible for them, or to start to inquire about that. And there can be an, there can be excitement with that. But, but what we often do is we hit our, I don't know if you've ever heard the term, like upper limits. Yes. But like the upper limits of what our nervous systems will tolerate and the upper limits of what our body considers homo homeostasis, like our erotic homeostasis. So we have the we'll start to have these exciting things start to happen and we hit the upper limit. And how does our body get us back into homeostasis? It goes, whoa, what are you doing? And it pushes us back down. And so that shame can look like a lot of things. It can look like I'm doing the wrong thing. It can look like you're doing the wrong thing. To me, it can look like, oh, I feel I have a headache so many ways as I, and I'm getting better at this 'cause I don't, anyway, as I invite people onto this journey. I also really prepare them and name like we're gonna, you're gonna encounter playfulness, and probably pleasure and excitement, and you are going to encounter shame. And just know that and know that we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, now we're gonna navigate this and hopefully we're gonna move slowly enough. And that's on me. We're gonna move slowly enough that when we start to encounter it, it's a digestible thing. Rather than pushing really hard against it being like, Hmm, and someone doesn't show up again or whatever they have, there's a lot of different things that that can happen and that decreases over over time. But I'm forgetting the original question, but there's a piece of this that's about shame. Navigation, shame, surfing, or as one of the things that you, I think you saw that shame, whispering. Yeah. It's like staying in people's ears and being like, you're okay? Yes, this is okay. Are you okay? What do you feel in your body? What do you know to be true? And it's like staying with that. Yeah. It's, it's so valuable and I think so important to safe port your clients to, to let them know that shame is gonna come up. That's really such an integral part of. Leaning past the glass ceiling or the, I call it the pleasure ceiling, that upper limits. Mm-hmm. Because what is keeping the upper limits in place? It could be a wide range of things, but shame is such a huge reason for a, a lot of us. Yeah. So naming it from the get go. And so when it is face, you can really, you, they know it's digestible and you're moving through it together. Yeah. Oh, here it is. Mm-hmm. Here it is. Oh, you were, you tried the self-pleasure practice that we talked about for a couple of sessions, and you were bored or angry, or you didn't want to go there or whatever. I don't wanna say definitively, that's your shame, but it's like, here it is. Let's explore that. 'cause maybe you ordinarily said, yeah, I usually masturbate once or twice a week, and suddenly when it's being offered as practice for you, there's hesitation. So what is that? Yeah. What is that? The irony of shame? I'm realizing as we're talking. The shame is so powerful, obviously, because people, we don't talk about shame as a society, and we don't talk openly about our sexual shames because it's. Too shameful for a lot of people, and yet that is the medicine that allows for those upper limits for the pleasure ceiling to really expand and move beyond. Yeah. So the original question, Victor, was I wanted our audience to get a sense of how you guide people through clients through the Rewilding process, and so shame is like an integral part of that. Yeah. So. No. And you also mentioned self pleasuring practice. Yeah. Uhhuh great. So I'm wondering what Yeah, please. I'm like, we're both eager. Yeah. Yeah. I'm mu when I, the first place I usually start with people is understanding and starting to talk about what I call erotic sovereignty. And that is, it's connected to what we were talking about a little earlier, like with the in utero, like the experience of being an animal that knows it's, that knows its eroticism. So that is like the beginnings of our erotic sovereignty. This under. It's not a cognitive understanding, it's just as knowing mm-hmm. In your se, in yourself that all of this, all of these sensations that you can have, all this pleasure that you like, all these ways that you have that are less adulterated by what our families have given us. That that is yours. Mm-hmm. This is my body. This is my pleasure. This is my orgasm. Mm-hmm. This is my. Love of touching soft things. This is mine. Yes. And so we start by there with erotic sovereignty and understanding that it belongs to you. It doesn't belong to someone else. It doesn't mean autonomy. It doesn't mean all the pleasure you're supposed to experience just happens by yourself. You don't need anybody else. It doesn't mean that, but it means that when you come to the equation to, let's say, a relational equation or. Connecting with another thing that you are bringing yourself to the table versus wanting, needing, expecting pleasure to come from outside of you. Yeah. And to get it from somewhere else. And that, again, start getting into extraction. If it's outside of you, I need to get it. How am I gonna get it? I'm gonna mm-hmm. Buy it. I'm gonna marry it, I'm gonna take it. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna, but I need it in order. So anyway, we start with erotic. Sovereignty, and that usually comes with owning pleasure and having some sort of self pleasure practice. And if that foundation isn't in place, then the other stuff that comes from that, like having starting to have an err, radically inclusive environment starting to shift up how you might interact with. Your partner and how you choose to do things, all the other things, it's gonna, it's gonna have a, it, it, it, it may not take hold if you don't have that, that sense in yourself. So anyway, that's where we start. Frankly, that's where a lot of people end. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I work with, sometimes I work with people and we spend, I don't know, three months, four months, mm. Five months getting there and they're like, okay. And that's fine, but that's the beginning stage. Then, so that's, excuse me, that's where I guide, that's where I, that's where I guide people and uhhuh and within all of that, there's other things included in that, and I know that I'm gonna speak to the choir here, but there's like pleasure education and there's anatomy, education, and Right. All kinds of practices. There's all kinds of stuff woven into that. But it sounds like the building blocks is really the erotic sovereignty, really having clients not only understand it, but experientially embody their erotic sovereignty through practices. Yeah. And through experiences. Yeah. And then the shame piece is also like a foundational building block as well, because we all have that. Yeah. But we live in our society. Yeah. Yeah. Who are you as an erotic creature? Who are you? As a sexual creature, how is it different than how you perceive yourself right now? Or how is it different than what you've been taught is true, what you're trying to live up to, or you're trying to like back away from? Yeah. Yeah. It's so great because I feel like what you're doing in the Rewilding process is you're just really holding up a mirror so people can see themselves in their authentic erotic. Nature and showing them where they're limiting or shaming or blocking their own erotic nature and providing the tools for them to, as you said earlier, to chip away and let go of the conditioning that is restricting their erotic embodiment. And that is so much of the rewilding process. Great. I, I wanna, I wanna ask you, Victor, because there was something else on your site that I saw. I think it was erotic embodiment as activism. And given what we're discussing about the O we're talking really about the ways in which society and these cultural norms are oppressing our erotic energy. And certainly there are communities that that, that are more oppressed because they're not welcomed, they're not celebrated as we are. I'm wondering if you can speak to how, like, how do you see erotic embodiment as activism? Yeah. So once you start living in your body in ways that the culture, the society goes, what are you doing? What are you doing? You're faced with a choice. And the choice and several choices. One is you can let go of what you're doing and go, I'm, I'm sorry, go back to what I was doing before. Or you could hide. What you're doing and go, okay, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it only here. Like I have my little tight community or my, my time with my partner, partners, whatever it is, and I don't have to be out mm-hmm. To the world at large. Or you, you can be like. I'm living in my body in ways that we're supposed to live and I'm not. And I'm gonna show you that. Mm. And by show you that, I don't mean violate by that. Mm. But I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tone it down. I'm going to be alive. Yeah. In my body. Uh, and to me, that's where things go over into activism. When you are challenging the ways in which. The culture, the society says you're not supposed to be that way. You're not supposed to be alive, you're not supposed to cry, you're not supposed to express pleasure. Mm-hmm. In big ways you are not supposed to be naked in certain places. Mm-hmm. Now I was, walk that line, I'm, I'm not saying go to the middle of town and start walking around naked and get a rest now. But yeah. What are the ways in which you are willing to challenge. This, or at least go, I am. This is what I'm doing, Uhhuh. This is, and this is true, and I'm staying here with it. Yeah. So I think I haven't seen you in public doing your thing, but I'm guessing since we're in the same field, in the same land, I'm guessing there are ways in which you speak. I'm gonna put it in big terms. Speak the power. About the body and sexuality and what's true. And I would call that activism there. And I definitely, I know the ways in which I do that and not, and yeah, so that's what I mean. And in the people that I work with I in, I invite that not everyone wants to do that, and that's, that's fine. You don't have to go out and be an activist. But I do say to people, if you are going to shift. How you live your life in ways that you say you want to have more access to s and more access to pleasure and sexuality. Chances are pretty good. You're gonna have to stand up to some things that are wanting to default you back into the ways that you were, and it doesn't have to be in a big way, but you're gonna have, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to do something different to get something different. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that obvi, obviously we're not saying go to Whole Foods naked, but we're encouraging like the, the evolution of what it feels. Joyful to be erotically embodied and to make that the priority. And share yourself wherever you are in, in your interactions, and slowly and gradually that rewilding will occur and the upper limits or the pleasure ceiling will continue to expand. Yeah. And you will return to more and more of your natural, beautifully erotic state. Yeah. Yeah, and it can be simple. If you decide to have the big book of the big book of Vulvas mm-hmm. Photographic book of vulvas or genitals and you have that like on your coffee table, you're like, this is one of the ways I'm just like owning this and going, this is beautiful and I'm having it out and it's in my own house, and. Neighbors come over and maybe there's not a big old vulva right on the cover. I don't know. But they open it up. Mm-hmm. Oh, whatcha doing? And my kids here. And the activism part can be something like this is important to me. Yeah. I'm keeping this book on my coffee table. Do you want to have a conversation about why this is important? Uhhuh, at least to me, and you don't have to, you don't have to like sum through the book. If you're really super upset, I can, I might put it away for a while, your kids' here, or Uhhuh, something like that. But it's, but it's like challenging that thing of this is wrong, this is bad. What are you doing Uhhuh good. People don't do this. Whatever. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So for listeners, this is just an encouragement and a support to be your erotically embodied selves as activism, vira. How can people find you and work with you? Ah, yes. So I'm available. Um, I think, yeah, most people either find me on my website, which is uh, re rewild aeros.com. I'm also on Instagram, and that is Bonobo man. Bonobo man, great. Yeah, on Instagram and I'm on Facebook under my name, so that's how most people. Find me. Cool. And just to be clear, you work with individuals virtually, you work with individuals in person, you work with couples virtually and in person. Are there other ways? Are there intensives? Are you teaching these days? 'cause I, I know we, you were teaching at Soul Play a couple years ago. Yeah. What are all the ways. All the ways. So yeah, all the ways that you just said. I work with people as individual clients and also couples relationships. I work a lot with people that are not in traditional relationships, non-monogamy, all that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. I do, I do client work. I also teaching of work workshops. I will be an upcoming thing. It's not completely my thing, but in actually next weekend I'll be in Sebastopol doing a a grief aeros ritual. Wow. Mostly around the subject of race. Uhhuh Uhhuh. Cool. But that's the thing. Upcoming, I, I did a workshop on Rewilding arrows back in June and sel. Oh, sweet. Yeah. And some of my workshops are more for people that are just stepping into this kind of thing. And I do some things that are more people, for people that are deeper in, that are more experiential, or even some that are erotic inclusive. Cool. So, yeah, I do workshops and I like talking to and working with communities around, around this stuff. Wow, that's fantastic. So really a wide range of different offerings and op and ways to work with Victor and all of that can be found at his site. Rewild es.com. Victor, thank you so much for sharing yourself, for being an activist for really, I, I feel like the way you. Our holding space, but also educating people around the rewilding process and in the context of who we really are. Innately a as, as primal beings is really such an important voice and it really needs to get out there. So thank you so much for all the service that, that you're doing for, for our communities and our species. Mm, thank you. Thank you. And thanks for having me on. How is today's episode landing for you in your body right now? Who are you as an erotic creature, and are there ways your home, your community, and your nature is waiting? Longing and wanting to be rewelded. Are you aware of the upper limits of your erotic homeostasis? And what are ways you can bring safety and support in expanding past these pleasure ceilings if they're in the way of embodying your erotic sovereignty? Links to Victor's work and site, rewild eros.com are in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ##### Rahi Chun ###### Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Embodiment & Expression, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** conscious masculinity, embodied leadership, emotional intelligence for men, healthy relationships, intimacy skills, men’s healing, Rahi Chun, sexual integrity, somatic coaching, Victor Warring --- ### [Ecstatic Belonging & Embodied Community (Caffyn Jesse)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/ecstatic-belonging-caffyn-jesse/) **Published:** October 21, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** "When we touch someone, we touch their whole history, their deepest wounds, their secret identity, their healing powers, and their most profound capacities for joy. Sacred Intimacy is not rocket science, though it is neuroscience. We need to understand the neural learning zone, address the traumatic shaping we experience around the erotic, and create space for and welcome empowered choice and voice..." from Caffyn Jesse's curated life's work of embodied sexual wellness, healing and autonomy. After their "retirement," we explore how their sense of freedom and inner truism has them being as prolific and attuned as ever. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Ecstatic Belonging & Embodied Community (with Caffyn Jesse) # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the experience of belonging and how community shapes our sense of self and connection. You’ll learn how embodiment practices support deeper relational connection and authenticity. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/unnamed-3.jpg "unnamed-3 | Rahi Chun") Caffyn’s site: [EcstaticBelonging.com](https://ecstaticbelonging.com/) [IntimacyEducator](https://intimacy-institute.teachable.com/p/intimacyeducator) Online Course About Our Guest: Caffyn Jesse is a queer elder, sacred intimate, teacher and writer who revels in the power and pleasures of the erotic. They are a renowned teacher of sex, intimacy and healing trauma with pleasure – encouraging neuro-plastic change to support sexual healing and expanded pleasure, unwinding sexual trauma, exploring the intersection of sex and spirit, creating erotic community are all core to their work and play. Caffyn is a tireless advocate of embodied love. Caffyn offers an Intimacy Educator teaching in an online program on The Art and Science of Sacred Intimacy. They host regular “office hours” where you can meet, connect and ask questions. They also offer a program on psychedelic medicine integration. Caffyn’s books include Love and Death in a Queer Universe, Elements of Intimacy, Sensual Man, Science for Sexual Happiness, Intimacy Educator: Teaching with Touch, Elements of Intimacy and Pelvic Pain Clinic. Their fabulous new site: www.Ecstatic Belonging.com is a beautifully curated container of blogs, videos, audios, online courses, and info about Caffyn’s retreats and office hours. ## What You’ll Learn About Belonging, Community & Embodiment $ How “retirement” has freed up Caffyn’s energy and life force to create whilst slowing down and attuning for what wants to come through. $ How peer to peer connections invite a co-creative expansion for them, rather than being limited by the teacher/student dynamic of being exalted and projected upon. $ How the Intimacy Educator online training evolved over 12 yrs of teaching – based on people asking Caffyn, “how can I learn what you do?…” $ How knowing your own nervous system’s “Window of Tolerance” – its “Green Safe Zone” – and titrating from yellow – the learning edge – back into the green, can expand the realm of what your body is able to be present with. $ How important It is to live and explore the yellow learning brave zones (see Caffyn’s diagram), exploring the nervous system upregulated arousal states, in order to expand the body’s capacity for new and diverse, edgy experiences for growth and evolution. $ How cautious consideration is necessary for exploring how sexological bodywork can be supported by psychedelic medicines for expanding embodied awareness in being with one’s most profound wounds and most ecstatic joys. $ How psychedelic guides can benefit from the practices of Somatic Sex educators in learning how to go beyond simply giving passive consent to understanding the nuances of power dynamics and choice, the expansive capacities of the erotic body, and understanding how sexual trauma lives in the body’s armor and can get be touched into during sessions. $ How the “sweet spot” intersecting sexological bodywork and therapeutic psychedelic use may be where new neural and somatic pathways can replace old unhealthy ones whilst the body remains in full agency, presence to sensations, and autonomy to voice full consent. $ How a certain level of resource and safety in being with one’s body and inner truism is necessary to set and hold the intention of returning lost parts of the soul and further – to compassionately integrate them into wholeness. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Honoring Caffyn Jesse and erotic embodiment](https://rahichun.com/podcast/honoring-caffyn-jesse-erotic-embodiment/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. # Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Ka and Jesse back to the podcast. We interviewed them two years ago when they were retiring from teaching as faculty at the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex education, which they had co-created and co-founded. Since then. They've been as prolific as ever, creating from a place of inner truism, curating their life's work into a magnificent resource site. Ecstatic belonging.com and the wonderful Intimacy Educator online course, Caffin Life Force. Now, Unbound and Unleashed is an inspiring example of what transmissions can serve our earth and community. With greater and greater inner attunement. I am filled with love and joy as I have Kaf and Jesse. Back on the podcast they are the first guest to return, and I'll explain for so many good reasons why it's such a gift to have kahan back on the podcast. For those of you who've been listening to episodes you might recall, it was a little over two years ago that Catherine joined us and it happened to be the week of her retirement from the institute for the study of somatic sex education, which she co-created. It's funny to refer to that as her retirement because she has been so prolific since then. Free to create and engage in all the ways that her life force is calling her. So I'll share a little bio of Kahan and then I'd love to explore all of the ways that her life force and her erotic curiosities have continued to create such prolific works. Katherine Jesse is a queer elder, sacred, intimate teacher and writer who revels in the power and pleasures of the erotic. They are a renowned teacher of sex, intimacy, and healing trauma with pleasure. Encouraging Neuroplastic change to support sexual healing and expanded pleasure, unwinding sexual trauma, exploring the intersection of sex and spirit, which I love so much. Creating erotic community are all core to their work and play. Chan offers an intimacy educator teaching in an online program on the art and science of sacred intimacy. They host regular office hours now, which is such a gift where you can meet, connect, and ask questions. They also offer a program on psychedelic medicine integration, Chan's. Many books include love and death in a queer universe. Elements of intimacy. Sensual man, science for sexual happiness, which I have on my shelf and have written so many notes about intimacy educator teaching with touch elements of intimacy and pelvic pain clinic kahan. It's always wonderful to see you. Thank you for returning to the podcast. Oh, Rahi, what an honor and a joy to have another conversation with you and yet to be. Invited back. That's a really thrilled thank you. Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you. Katherine, it's been a little over two years since our first interview and since then you have distilled your life's work into the Sacred Intimacy Online Training Program, as well as the new ecstatic belonging.com website, which has so many. Resources your works videos, audios, blog posts a lot of it, w of which you are making available for free. You are now offering office hours. I know you've been really passionate about exploring psychedelic supported body work. I'd love to get into all of that, but first I wanna ask you, how has life. How has life freed you up since stepping down from your position and it just feels like you are, it just feels like you're being, you're so prolific, you're doing exactly what you have always wanted to do. I do feel that a freedom to slow down and tend to my way of being and, yeah, let the, what wants to come through me, have space and time and yeah, just feel like more the whole of me can exist. I love career in teaching somatic sex education and my wonderful colleagues and students, and you know what? I could not have had a better. More wonderful dream career. But yeah, just stepping down from that, being highly visible as a teacher and a spokesperson of a profession that is pretty edgy. And it, there's a cost as well as all the wonderful benefits. And part of that too was just being in that teacher role all the time instead of. Peer connection, which is what's really calling me now and exciting me. Like I, I just want to grow that part of me that, what, can meet with peers and figure stuff out together. Co-creation was yeah, my real joy. Yeah I hear the the privilege as well as some of the barriers that being in a kind of exalted position came with for you. And I hear that you really love the soul to soul connection of being met as equals, because I feel like that is really who you are about. Yeah. Yeah. It feels oh, I'm growing the truth of me like this. Like intimacy, this real curiosity about who each one is and how can we love each other. And which has always been my medicine. In my practice and in my teaching. But it just gets to exist in a different, playing field now that I'm not, having the role and responsibility of the teacher and the, client practitioner dynamic, you always have that power dynamic. Not that we can erase power dynamics, but it's just like growing that part of me that dares to be in the vulnerable exchange. And yes, and, not the, not knowing and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is required for a. Like pure peer connection. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you're touching upon that because it is in the realm of the, not knowing that we expand, but both as erotic beings and as human beings. And I hear that the space and the freedom that you now have apart from the responsibilities, like I remember when I visited you, you shared with me like you like to have your mornings very spacious for these creative inspirations. I know you have rituals with Beloved Earth, with nature, and you allow yourself to be inspired and have these kind of downloads happen. I'm curious, I feel like ecstatic belonging.com, where you've distilled your life's work, and even more so with the sacred intimacy. Online course. I'm curious how this came through you with this spaciousness of your morning rituals of your just state of being. Did it, was it a download? Was it kind of something that evolved over time? Intimacy educator program, which yeah, I people wanna check that out. They can go to. Right directly to intimacy educator.com. That's actually something that evolved over, 12 years of teaching and like I, I had people come to me to say, like, how can I learn to do what you do? There were. People that were working as sex workers, there were psychotherapists like people, these amazing humans from diverse modalities working in diverse modalities came and like found me and said teach me about this. Teach me what you're doing. Yeah. And and so I developed this program and then. And then with the people that came, it kept growing and getting more complicated and it was actually my students that co-created with me and like many of them has become colleagues and friends and lovers. And it's together we figured out what to we needed to do to grow. Like a more authentic intimacy and an erotic community. Which has been like the great joy of my life. So when I was retiring I was like, I feel like I don't have the spoons to go. And I used to travel and teach and put on these workshops several times a year here at home. And I've taught it in Ireland and, elsewhere, but I was like, oh, I can't do that anymore. But I want to somehow put it, give it to the world and have it still exist. Because it, it feels precious, it's it's, help me find this way of being that it, where I do feel this sense of ecstatic belonging, like with other humans and with the earth, and I really thank, all the students that came and the yuck and the yum of teaching it all those years and astonishing challenges and gifts of each time I would teach it, it would always keep changing. I'm sure it will still keep changing, even as people have been going through the online program, I'm like, oh, I should, add this or change that. It's exciting that it's a, it's an evolving organism. That continues to reveal what it desires to be. And that's like our bodies are evolving organisms that continue to reveal. So it's like a micro a macrocosm. So it sounds like it was the training that evolved over 12 years, the in-person training that you have essentially translated into an online course. Yes, that's right. And so that people can do it, like whether they're home alone or whether they're with a friend or working with a professional. Or working as a professional. It's like trying to resource. Yeah, I was really impressed with how. You have organized the material and framed it in a way so that it's really for anyone. As you said, it could be a self-directed solo practice. It could be as a client who is working with a professional intimacy educator or sexological body worker. It could be someone who is, wants to explore and deepen their sex, their embodiment, intelligence with a trusted friend. And it's also for professionals who are working with clients. So I love the icons that you came up with to illustrate the different ways the material can be absorbed. So I wanna read a little excerpt from the from the training. I was really blown away and so impressed with all that you. The essential gems that are necessary for a program like this, and yet how you've curated the best of, what I consider, so much of your life's work. So this is from the online training. When we touch someone, we touch their whole history, their deepest wounds, their secret identity. Their healing powers and their most profound capacities for joy. Sacred intimacy is not rocket science, though it is neuroscience. We need to understand the neural learning zone, address the traumatic shaping we experience around the erotic and create space for and welcome, empowered choice and voice. We need to understand about attachment wounds, navigate power dynamics. It's two relationship paradigms that inhibit loving connection. The lens of neurobiology helps us do this work in ways that are trauma aware, ethical, and deeply grounded. There is also a domain specific knowledge we need of sensual massage, of genital anatomy, genital massage, strokes, genital deaming, and the integration of science, sex, and spirit. So I feel like in that kind of short. Few sentences you are naming all these essential ingredients that need to go into creating a safe container and a thorough container to address the whole person, the empowered choice and voice to understand our neural learning zone. Our window of tolerance and the is necessary to expand that window of tolerance, attachment wounds, power dynamics. To be trauma aware. And then the actual practical sensory aliveness of re imprinting, new touch imprints with the erotic and with, for a lot of us, the genitalia. I'm curious, Kain, how, what, how is the process of distilling and curating this live organism that evolved over 12 years onto the online training platform? It took me a couple of years. It wasn't, simple. But I had fun 'cause I had a binder and a box of all my course curriculum when I would teach these these workshops, six day workshops. And it's a a six module course. And so I had fun just like. Remembering teaching it and like, how do I translate that into an online environment? When I did my master's degree curriculum design and online learning and ah, and I have had quite a bit of experience with that in the Institute for the Study of Somatic Sex Education. So I felt like I had some resource and around, like how curriculum design is like an erotic playground for me. Like I love it. And also, it's hard to like, can you really do an intimacy and touch and thing online and so far people that have been, getting back to me have been finding it. Lighting up. Yes. New. Pathways and giving them new opportunities of ways to be with friends and lovers and and or even, yes, I just had someone that was already a, established somatic sex educator with a lot of training and experience that said, yeah, this is gonna be a great. For I'll keep coming back. And they really liked it. What's really great to me as I was going through the training material is how you invite the participants to reach out to you via email, and of course you have your office hours so you can really gauge. Not only how they're digesting and being impacted by the course, but also it's almost I find it interesting teaching a course because you can gauge like what are the very common experiences or issues or. Challenges or breakthroughs that people are moving through when it comes to embodied sexuality? I'm curious amongst the feedback you've had so far, have there been common themes emerge? Like for example, like people understanding the window of tolerance, which I think is so critical in sexual healing for people to know about, for a lot of people, like they were not aware of that and that I'm imagining would have a huge impact. Yes. And sometimes it's very hard to manage that impact and like I wanna be really tender with people and offer like having that personal email exchange is important I think. And office hours because I just had an exchange with a student that's like when I learned about the window of tolerance and the. I, I just realized like how I'd spent my whole life or much of my life, and then the whole of my sexual life in the red zone where, it's like the danger zone and I'm always in danger management mode and feeling that corrosive neurochemistry, that, where we're not resourced to have empowered choice and voice. And so that's a tender. Recognition. Like when you start to understand, and I, I know for me, in my personal healing journey, I spent a lot of time in grief and grief about the what was, could never be or should have been, might have been. And yeah. So that's part of what, how we walk each other home, part of. Whether it's connecting one-on-one with me or with another student in the program or with a trusted friend. It's a way to be with this tender material in a way that that is actually supporting. I wanna underscore that. Speaking about and illustrating, you have a wonderful visual of the window of tolerance, using the metaphors of being in the green when you're feeling safe and secure, moving into the yellow when you're expanding your window of tolerance into the edge of feeling a. Arousal that is a nervous system. Upregulation arousal, but feel still feeling safe or moving into hypo arousal, but still feeling present. And then if you move beyond that into the red, I feel like you know the way you've organized that education within the empowered choice and voice. Module really empowers people to understand when they're moving into red and to back off or titrate back into the green or titrating from the yellow into the green because you know what you, the example you shared before about your past experiences of moving into grief, if you. Aren't aware of your window of tolerance and the neuro learning zone, you could easily just move into the red, whether it's grief or dissociation or, and just think that is what sex is. Yeah. Like life. Yeah. But yeah, to know. Like all the options and to like soothing strategies and like ways to get ourselves back into, but also not to avoid that learning zone. The neural learning zone is always gonna be a place of stretch where some courage is required. You're not gonna feel safe. There's so much focus on safety, but like safety is, yes, we need safety as a place of refuge and like calmness and rest and, yes. We need safety and we need also bravery. We need, yes, the courageous reach into our neural learning zone. If we just stay safe we atrophy, we become more and more fragile. And yeah, so I, I really think it's quite empowering to start noticing throughout the day. Yeah. Oh here I am getting like, into the hyper arousal or hypo arousal. The dissociation or. Frozenness or just like way too agitated to, to make an empowered choice. Or here I'm just like, I'm in that brave zone. And, how long can I stay here before I, it's too much or too little. Yeah. And when it comes to, especially healing from trauma and sexual trauma or really any kind of physical trauma, I. Understanding that you're, that's where we really feel and start to embody a greater resilience is in that, in those learning zones. So to really know, it's almost like a meditation to be in the yellow, to know how far you can go and to build that resilience within your nervous system and metabolize, past on integrated charged energy from the nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. And Rahi, I wanna honor how you have taught me in our visits, like I think, which has just happened since I retired, that we've had two, two visits and you've brought me such learning around, the actual somatic practices of that you've developed this body of work based on neuro effecti touch of like meeting, holding, supporting, having that somatic experience of partnering and letting the body find its place of oh, I can release now, I can dem now I can feel like. This weave of I belong I, I can be here with the resource of that has been so transformative for me and important to. Integrate into whenever I do a retreat with someone or meet with friends I, I really wanna pay attention to that, so thank you for your teachings. Sure. Yeah. I find that the more a client's nervous system expands their capacity to yield. Into receiving support and being held the more kind of courage it gives them to move into that neural ur learning zone of the yellow into those edges. And it can be a titration between these two areas. I wanna, there's so many cool pieces in addition to the neural learning zone, which I loved so much. I love how you speak about the Outlaws journey. And how reclaiming our erotic nature is really living the, embracing the path of the outlaw. I'm curious how that concept came about, and I feel like you have been an outlaw in your whole life. Why did that piece feel important to include in the Sacred intimacy training? I, it was actually first brought in by Medi dha, who's yes. It was one of my first students and then co-taught with me for a couple of years. And just as we were teaching and learning as we go, figuring it out what the heck we were doing. We were realizing sort of the epic quality of going from like start to finish of this program was like what he brought was the hero's journey. And that's what I used for a while, but then I. I don't know, as like my thoughts and feelings about it developed I was feeling more, it's more like the outlaws journey and like this way of belonging that we have in our culture that is about outlawing what's bad and wrong has makes all of us like fraught with oh how, what do I have to do to belong? What rules do I have to follow? What roles do I have to play? And we're always in that danger management strategy. And of course, in my life, as a like queer person born, when homosexuality was outlawed, was a, as a, sex worker doing illegal work. Because now I'm into psychedelic medicines. It's there's so many ways that I'm like in listening to my own chewing mechanism and what's right for me. I've just broken every. Law and offended gazillions of people. And inspired gazillions of people and given gazillions of people, students and listeners and participants of your trainings. The permission as the example. Of someone who is non-normative and attunes to what her truth is, their truth is, and really relishes in that. I think you've been a beacon Kain at, on the I feel like these practices and this community of practice that, like these wonderful people like Medi and other people that. Came to, to contribute all their beautiful gifts. Help me like trust that process of listen to the inner chewing mechanism and like what feels right to me, but also listen to the other guys inner chewing mechanism like, like in feeling and finding like my own. Then I can get curious, deeply curious about this unique one who are you? What is the truth of you? And that's true intimacy, right? Like when you can really yes. Be who you're, and then be interested in who is this other like completely different person, like whose values and visions and what feels right to them. That's what I really. Want to be in relationship with Yes. From which emerges. Things like thanking the no. Like even when we disappoint each other, we can still choose relationship. We can, what is the right distance or rhythm for relationship like, and then just love can grow and feel like this sense of like certainty of belonging and instead of this. Always looking over our shoulders to see who's gonna put this away. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many wonderful things that I wanna touch on. I do feel like society and our conditioning, there is this kind of normative culture and it really, there is a pressure, I think, and that's in our DNA as a species to wanna belong in order to ensure our survival. And yet it does often go against our inner truism. As you say, and it is that inner truism that brings and unleashes the aliveness, our life force. Yeah. As living vessels. As in as unique organisms. And it's a really just interesting dichotomy. And so I do think the outlaws journey and erotic. Embodiment is a declaration of your inner truism, in whatever unique and interesting and undiscovered and unknown expressions and sensations it can elicit. And also that, that relational matrix in which. The truth of us can be wanted, listened to like to me, that's how we grow this true differentiation is to co-create a relational matrix in which, that differentiation is relished and delighted in. Yes. And that takes some practice and some knowledge and some like weird things like, like not just, you know what, like consent paradigm of be sure you say yes. But actually practicing thanking the no, or like feeling ourselves going into our patterns of overgiving or over taking and like making a course collection, making mistakes and then Yes. Still belonging and yes. All these sort of things we need actual. Practice of over time and that's like contradicting the dominant culture. And all the ways that we've been like, all the understandings that we've embodied. Before, you know what I'm hearing you share, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but I feel like what you're describing, like the freedom and the spaciousness that you've been experiencing since your retirement. Being taken off the pedestal. Yeah. And now having more peer-to-peer connection and exchanges allows that mutual being seen in the unknown, being seen in your mistakes, being seen in all of the humanness that we are. And I'm guessing that before retirement or those of us who are, largely practitioners, we get to witness. That aligning with one's inner truism in our clients, but it's not necessarily reciprocated since we're holding that space. As a practitioner. Yes. I mean there's, it feels easier in a peer-to-peer of course, connection, but but actually I think my gifts as a teacher. Where that, I just was so messy. Like people would, think read my website and think I was great, but if they actually met me, they would just see me like being complete goof and making mistakes and like having to apologize. And I used to ha, I had a song that I played about just oh, I've made a mistake and I used to. I would like in every workshop I'd teach, there'd be some time when I'd have to play that song and like just fall down and help me. And Uhhuh, they screwed that up. Students have said like just seeing me be like as messy and mistaken as I can be. I usually. Have many times that it helped them build their good medicine. It just if she can do it, I can do better. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's. Totally awesome. That's really, I think why people love you so much 'cause they get to see you and you're a humanist and your realness. I think that was a gift, kahan. It really broke, whatever facade, between you and your students and makes you so lovable. So I want listeners to have a chance to check out your course and the way you've organized your life's work on ecstatic belonging.com, and we'll have the site in the show notes where you have a blog, videos, audios, and of course the online course. As well as information about retreats and your office hours. If you wanna check out Katherine's material, please check out the website. It's an incredible resource for so many reasons. To distill and curate your life's work onto one site is just amazing. I'm curious I think this has been an interest of yours for a while, but since retiring, I it feels like you've really. Followed your natural inclination, love for Mother Earth and the plant world in your exploration of psychedelic supported body work. And I'm wondering if there's anything that wants to be spoken about your discoveries or about your experiences that, that may support listeners. I have a cautious cur curiosity. And I feel like I'm in the act of ongoing exploration of how our understandings and practices as somatic sex educators can translate to the world of psychedelic medicine. And it's not necessarily the. Body work per se. Because I think like what we grow in our practices is a capacity for like really profound intimacy and like really being with transformative change in clients and like a willingness to be with that like the. Most horrible wounds and the most profound capacity for joy, and to bring that good medicine into the psychedelic guiding space feels like extremely powerful. Also there's dangers, like there's real dangers. I recently did a webinar for the somatic Sex Educators Association on these issues, and it, I opened it with a story of a woman who had experienced like a real sort of feeling of consent violation and helplessness and yet another. Way to like experience that abuse of the power dynamic and a sense of being assaulted and non-consensual touch. And, we, when we're in an altered state, how do we navigate consent? And what I think is really key is how do we create expansion, yes. Of our window of tolerance, but not outside of the capacity of the sober nervous system to integrate. If you go too far, too fast as we've learned so often in our work in somatic sex education, like the person, like they can't integrate, like you wind up retraumatizing. And that is even more. So in this, when we bring in, of course, mind altering medicines but it feels like psychedelics that we're working with the same neurochemistry as we are in somatics education, that endogenous neurochemistry of like ecstasy and great radical openness and, but the way that they're currently used it feels like the world of psychedelic guides needs our understandings of how to go beyond the consent paradigm in terms of how to offer touch. It's not just about is this okay with you, but I see. Yeah. Give, offering it a choice. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Little like nuances and change of language that can change, like the whole paradigm of what you're exploring. Like really getting the power dynamics, really getting comfortable with erotic body and people have that so much. There's so much sexual trauma and there's so much like sexual power possibility. This has got to be part of any deep, like change or like healing. And like therapists or psychedelic guides, like they have no training and experience and like comfort and being with the whole human being, including the genitals. And yeah. Anyway, I just feel like i've been exploring this in my personal life for a decade, and I feel like there's some magic here. And I'm not a teacher in the realm. I'm just like an explorer and I share some of my practices and thoughts and but just as like a goof that's exploring. But in this webinar that I recently did. I did find people it included a lovely conversation with you about things we've explored and ways that you've started to explore integrating medicine into your practice. And then also some two psychedelic guides like that are trained as psychedelic guides and also as. Somatic sex educators in the way that they work. Yeah. I'm just curious and I feel like it's good medicine, but what about you? Tell me about your I just wanna, I wanna respond by sharing that I hear the deep curiosity and I also hear the deep caution, the inquiry of how to stay within that window of tolerance. With the aid of psychedelic, of plant medicines so that the receiver or the person on the journey is always within their empowered voice and choice and boundaries and consent. And that is the sweet spot of inviting new neural pathways, new somatic pathways to replace old. Somatic conditioning and have the participant be in full autonomy and agency. And that is the sweet spot that I'm curious about and that I think has just unfathomable potential for healing. And I agree with you that most practitioners. Are not trained or aware of the subtleties of consent, it's not enough to ask, is this okay for someone used to fawning or people pleasing? That's just gonna be an automatic yes. So to really know how to read the cues and to provide inviting the body to choose what is its inner truism, you're such a mentor with that. Say, you know how you work, the approach you have to, to working with people like. Taking a long time, working with one client a day, the genital Deaming program that you're offering now, you have the, I know from being with you, like you get it, like the pace of trust, how to work at the pace of trust. And we add psychedelics. Sometimes there are no boundaries, like the window of tolerance expands like, whoa and then afterwards we go oh, whoops. If we're working with people, I think we need to work with people who are resourced enough to make a mistake and exceed and then still, feel okay to have recovery. And that is not everybody, just beginning a trauma healing journey that don't have the relational matrix to support them in. And yeah, I feel like what you're speaking to is what you cover in your course, which is reclaiming lost parts of the soul back. There needs to be an understanding and enough resource to have that as an intention as opposed to just wanting to feel safe. This really is about reclaiming lost parts of the soul. Yeah, there needs to be enough resource to have that as an intention and to hold that as an intention. Yeah. And then when the lost part comes back and they're just, like not a very nice part and they're, all struggling and messy after their long journey, like of. Away from home. We have to be able to like, oh, how are we gonna be with this lost part of my soul and honor it. Welcome at home. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what, that can be like in the moment of a psychedelic journey oh great, a lost part of me. But in the. Actual integration of living with that. Messy. It can be a bit more challenging. Could be challenging and jarring. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Both the participant and the space holder. Having the awareness that is a possibility and how to navigate that more address in the practitioner client dynamic. Like I wanna resource people. To grow like their personal relational matrix, rather than creating a dependency on the practitioner. I feel that's very important part of the work. Yeah. I just wanna say, I love how the power dynamics is covered in the course as well. You've really brought in, I think, the key gems, all the necessary pieces, of the puzzle in, in, in this one. Course, which makes sense because it is a curation of your life's work. So yeah it's really, oh, you're so kind. And imagine you taking the time to look at it all. And I loved it. I loved it. I loved seeing how you've assembled, how you're guiding. Participants through this journey and you've got all the essentials and you've cut out, you've streamlined the process. Kain for people to find you is the best way to go to ecstatic belonging.com. Yeah. Everything is there. Yeah, you can just. Go there and you'll find a way more than you wanna know. Yeah. Okay. And just to be clear the office hours that you offer, those are for participants of the Sacred Intimacy course, is that correct? Oh, it's for anybody. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's incredible. Okay. Yeah. So Cain's office hours you can find the information on ecstatic belonging.com and that's for anyone curious to, to connect with Kain and to explore their inner truism. Yeah, and I just, come on I don't prepare anything or except for a pot of tea and just like there to have a conversation and so far I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's been really fun just to have conversations with whoever shows up and, yeah. And these are people from different parts of the world, so that must be ING as well. Yeah, that's, I tried to have like morning and evening on the Pacific Coast, which then last, if I do it in the evening, then. Like the US people of Australia and that right part of the world can come. So that was fun. I really, I just want to take the opportunity to acknowledge what a beautiful soul you are, Kahan. What a honor and pleasure it's been to befriend you and to know you as a fellow outlaw on the path. And and thank you so much for sharing your experiences with our audiences on the podcast. Oh, you're so kind and I just love you. Rahi. How would it be for you to create a conscious, erotic community of your own amongst intimate friends, lovers and partners, or in peer-to-peer containers to explore connection, touch, and intimacy? Within a clearly defined container of consent and boundaries, as Kain has, imagine the discoveries of your body's erotic potential purpose, pleasure, authentic consent, and inner truism that could evolve from this. You could even explore the boundary and consent exercises and sensual touch practices. Kain makes available on their site. And in their intimacy educator online course and concurrently sharing your discoveries and exploring questions with them during their office hours. Exploring the brave yellow zones of learning that feel edgy but safe, that feel expansive, new and enlivening, but also grounded to deepen your realm of embodiment and empowered choice and voice. In relationship with yourself as well as with others. Notice how this invitation is landing in your body right now. Maybe edgy, but maybe safe. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Embodiment & Expression, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening --- ### [Rewilding Eros: Belonging, Community & Erotic Expression](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) **Published:** July 25, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Christiane Pelmas is a force of nature and her evolving inquiry and meditation on re-wilding and returning to our undomesticated embodiment has informed her path as a mentor, guide, teacher, elder and space-holder. Author of “Trauma: A Practical Guide to Working with Body and Soul” and “Women’s Wisdom Guidebook & Card Deck,” Christiane is founder of The Institute for Erotic Intelligence and The One Woman Movement and Project, and co-founder of The Verdant Collective. She facilitates the Erotically Embodied Ethics online experience. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Rewilding Eros: Belonging, Community & Erotic Expression # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how eros is shaped by community, belonging, and culture with Christiane Pelmas. You’ll learn how reconnecting to authentic expression restores vitality, connection, and relational depth. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/ChristianePelmas.jpg "ChristianePelmas | Rahi Chun") Christiane’s main site which has links to all of her offerings: [www.christianepelmas.com](https://www.christianepelmas.com/) The Institute for Erotic Intelligence: Dedicated to the Science and Practice of Belonging: [www.instituteforeroticintelligence.com](https://www.instituteforeroticintelligence.com/) OneWoman Movement and Project: [www.onewoman.org](https://www.onewoman.org/) The Verdant Collective: Discover What Your Sovereign Female Looks, Sounds, and Feels Like: [www.theverdantcollective.com](https://www.theverdantcollective.com/) [“Trauma: A Practical Guide to Working with Body and Soul” ](https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Practical-Working-Educators-Handbook-ebook/dp/B076J6Z3HR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=christiane%20pelmas&qid=1610762668&sr=8-1) About Our Guest: Christiane Pelmas is a force of nature and her evolving inquiry, meditation and practices of re-wilding and returning to our undomesticated essence informs her path. Some of the ways this inquiry has yielded support for others includes authoring “Trauma: A Practical Guide to Working with Body and Soul,” “Women’s Wisdom Guidebook & Card Deck” and contributing to the anthology, “Healers of the Edge” – as well as serving as a mentor, guide, teacher, writer, and elder in her community. She is founder of The Institute for Erotic Intelligence and The One Woman Movement and Project and co-founder of The Verdant Collective. (Links below). Most of all, she is a magnificent human being. ## What You’ll Learn About Eros, Belonging & Expression $ How our souls speak a first language – the language of our belonging – that is the key to our passion and our power. $ At all times, how all things are speaking that indigenous language of belonging – and what domesticated society has done to erase that language replacing it with the language of fitting in. $ How Christiane shifted her space-holding from “therapy” to mentorship & guiding as well as eldering & grandmother-ing, including giving up her therapy license in order to move more deeply into a humane hands-on way of supporting clients. $ How “belonging” actively works against the musculature of “fitting in” – and how “fitting in” actively works against the musculature of “belonging.” $ How Eros’s main idea is questioning “says who?” – and how its cosmology of possibilities is to co-create, make a mess, and see what’s possible. $ How psychedelics can be impactful in opening and expanding possibilities that otherwise the psyche may reflexively close due to social and cultural conditioning. $ How personal responsibility and re-wilding requires tossing out the imposed scaffolding from society’s norms in regards to what is “appropriate” and instead honoring our authentic sensual and sexual expressions, curiosities and exploration. $ How trauma is a rupture in belonging and how the singular responsibility of any community is to raise its children to have unassailable experiences of their belonging. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Ecstatic belonging and erotic community ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/ecstatic-belonging-caffyn-jesse/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today's interview is a real gift as we hear from Christiane Pelus and the fruits Baird from her ongoing inquiry and practices. Of rewilding, of questioning what is truly authentic to our nature as ecologically embodied beings, as well as creatures of belonging within our respective mycelium networks, as opposed to what has been conditioned and subjected to pressures of fitting in and how this shows up in our embodiment. As you listen to our interview exploring the ecological state of our existence, cohabitation and belonging, I would invite you to question for yourself how these themes can be applied to your sexuality and erotic embodiment. Can we allow for the authentic desires of the body to be fully expressed as they are? Can we accept and celebrate what feels non-normative about our erotic desires? And can we hold space for a playground of rewilding from the inside out and from the ground up by nurturing the rich soil and soul of our nature, both essentially curious creatures as well as interconnected communities and tribes. I am feeling tingliness in my feet and excitement in my heart and just a joy emanating from my heart space as I am here with Christian. The going pelvis, that's my nickname for her. Okay, so a little bit about Christian. I first. Got turned on to Christian by Her Fabulous Guide her authored book called Trauma, A Practical Guide to Working With Body and Soul. But more recently we shared a retreat space, a co-created retreat space up at Salt Spring Island and got to. Have an experiential shared experience of a lot of the themes we'll be exploring today. So Christian, I'm just gonna do an intro so people have a context of your background. So Christian is the author, co-author of three fabulous books. Aforementioned trauma, A practical guide to working with Body and Soul which is so succinct. It's all just the essentials and I love it. Recommended highly to anyone who works with trauma in therapy or sexuality or just wants to understand their own embodiment. A lot better. Two other books, women's Wisdom Guidebook and Card Deck, also wonderful. And it's really a collaborative of culture perspective. Experiences from all around the world. It's really fabulous. And then she contributed to the anthology Healers of the Edge, and she's currently gestating a new offering that is eminent. She's the founder of the Institute for Erotic Intelligence and the one woman movement and project and co-founder of the Verdant Collective. Interwoven throughout her endeavors are themes that involve erotic embodiment. Nurturing community and belonging, honoring and reclaiming our feminine essence in nature, sexuality, and intimacy as ways for rewilding ourselves on each other and listening and cultivating relationship with our ancestors, with nature, and returning to our true wild and undomesticated essence. Christian, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming onto the podcast. No, it's so fun to be here. Rocky. I thought I would start with this quote, and it's a quote I picked up somewhere amongst your many expressions of these themes that are so vital, I think, not only to our existence, but they're really vital to our integrity and honoring of our nature. The quote is, our souls Speak a first language, one, which is indigenous to all life. Remembering this language is the key to self-love, to our purpose, our passion, and our power. I would love, besides hearing from your dog, I would also love to hear, what this quote what this means to you, like our, how our souls speak, this first language that is the key to our passion and our power. Yeah. What is this first language? What is this first language? I'll, I, maybe I'm just gonna dance around it, but our first language is the language of our belonging and, we just spent quite a lot of time. On Salt Spring, really exploring belonging and we all come to it with a different sense of it. Some people say we have to find our belonging. And some people say we have to cultivate our belonging. And my shtick is, no, we don't need to. We just have to remember that we belong. It's very simple. It's a change of perspective. We belong, we're here, we belong ecologically, it's a. It's an ecological fact. It's a physiological fact. It's not a philosophical moment or, a rev, a revelatory situation in a workshop experience in a workshop. It's just an acceptance that we belong and there's an indigenous language of belonging, and it's it requires that we allow that at all times, all things. All things. The tree outside my window, the sunflower in front of it the gold, the goldfinches that are feeding on the sunflower, the puppy playing with my older dog. Everyone, all the wild ones are speaking that language and we know that language. Our ancestors had tremendous ceremony and ritual focused on remembering that language and keeping them true to that language. And one thing domesticated culture has done, society, conformist to consumer society has done is to completely erase that language. And that's strategic, that's a capitalist maneuver to erase that language and replace it with the language of fitting in. And so if I'm getting close to coming to, some sort of concrete answer that it's, it that. That indigenous language, that indigenous con conversation and language is the language of our belonging and we all know it. And likely much of our malaise, whether it's, hedonia, whether it's despair, whether it's rage whether it's depression, whether it's, whatever it is is a response, a very healthy critical, ecologically critical response to that be rman. Yeah. Yeah. There, there are many important, themes that you just touched upon. The practices and rituals of indigenous people to celebrate that sense of belonging is one theme. The capitalistic, kind of consumerist society that. Structure that, that we have been conditioned by and that, it's like we grew up in the soup, so that sometimes it's hard to recognize the soup from, like our authentic essence. That's like another really important theme. And then I wanna, I want to explore like some of the practices that you support your clients and communities with to return to that sense of embodiment erotic. Essence and sense of belonging. Beautiful. Yeah. Going back I think the first and third points are connected. As you shared the indigenous peoples, were steeped in rituals and practices that were so community based. As shared that reflect our nature. And it seems to me like you have brought or you have learned the wisdom of these practices. You have, facilitated in some of the community gatherings that, that you have been a part of. Can you speak to what are some ways that like listeners can start to cultivate within their own communities and tribes rather than getting together and, having a cocktail or a potluck? What are some rituals that are very simple that will really foster that, that sense of reminding us of our nature. It's interesting Rahi that you say, rather than getting together and having a cocktail or a potluck, there would be nothing. Those practices could be in the category of what you're, of that reclamation behavior, reclaiming some of the practices that keep us well, that keep us embedded. And and not just speaking that language, that indigenous language of belonging, but actually letting it. Evolve and iterate. Instead of devolve and atrophy. It could be, I think it is so simple and you said that, it is, it's. Part of the problem is that it is so simple. We keep thinking it's monumentally complex and it involves higher education and it involves laborious workshops and it involves gurus and experts and it, it involves deep soul searching and discomfort in, digging around In my wound. The phrase is doing the hard work. How many times do we hear somebody say, oh, I just met so and they're they're really great. They're just, man, they're doing the hard work. I just that sounds awful. Just what does that mean? And actually our wellbeing and our robust experience of our belonging is probably so much more homegrown than that, quite literally, and quite. Deliberately, so much more homegrown. So for me. One of the things that was so critical is for me is that I shift my therapy practice to one of mentorship and guiding, and as I've gotten older, I've added the words eldering and grandmothering. Like I'm the grandmother. I'm the grandmother you come to. And I'm not gonna hold myself up here. I'm not up here. I'm farther along. And I'm wiser, no doubt. But I'm not up here. I'm not an expert and I'm not a guru. And oddly, I might also be directive like good old fashioned grandmothers might be like, that's a bad choice. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I think that's a bad choice. And will I love you if you make that choice? Absolutely. Will I stand by you if you make that choice? A hundred percent. But let me just tell you, I think that's a bad choice and, therapy with its back here. Listening and inviting and contemplating and it's a kind of anaerobic environment. And so one of the things I had to do was just shift, give up my license and shift what I call myself and sit with people in a much more, in a much more kind of, literally hands-on way, but also Yeah, hands-on, metaphorically to replicate that sense of. If you have something that's troubling you, Rocky. You're just gonna walk across the compound and you're gonna knock on my door. So I practice out of my home. You knock on my door, you come into my home, whatever I'm cooking, you can smell. If I'm doing laundry, you can hear it. If other people are here, they're gonna be here and we're gonna go and sit down and have our time together. But there's a way of just bring it home. Bring it intimate, bring it local. So that, that was a personal and professional decision I made. But also. Inviting my community into community, and we have this idea that community, we have this very interesting idea about what community means and looks like these days. It's very curated. And it's you go to my Pilates and my yoga class, we, and we practice the same meditation. Oh my God, we're practically siblings. Let's you know, you're part of my community. And that's not actually how community works. That's a little bit antithetical to community. In fact, 'cause community is a robust, diverse ecology that iterates it's rubbing up against itself. It's pushing, it's challenging. And the very nature of it is that it. It evolves because of that. And to have, so I host gatherings here, different gatherings every month that are on the calendar. Anyone can see them. They're drop in, one of them is free, and then the other are two are donation. One of them is just in my home and we have actually a potluck. And the other two are around the fire in the kka that I have here in my land. And it's drop in. I have no idea who's gonna show up. Has it backfired occasionally? I guess it depends on how you. Look at that. I've gotten some live wires around the fire. Some people don't know how to sit and listen, but how will we learn if we don't include everyone? And the nature of the indigenous community is that. Everyone's welcome around the fire. And you learn your place. And you learn your place. Not because you're shamed, but because you're mentored. And so these are the kinds of things that we are gonna have to remember how to do, and we're gonna have to do them. And the last thing I'll say about this is that. It is. I've been doing the community dinners, just, I just open my door. It starts at six 30. I have no idea who's gonna come through the door. Wow. And and we gather and we have dinner. And it's not curated at all, but it's also not guided. It's not facilitated. We're just being I see. Social with each other. Yeah. It's time to not be so serious and earnest and, and over again. Now for, let's see how long those have been going on for 10 years, those have been happening and over again, people are in tears about how extraordinary it is that I open my door and have this every month. And that to me is shocking and. And, if there were like a deep, dark pit of despair, for me, that's one of the things that would have me go into it. Because Rahi, think about it, people are in tears, overwhelmed with the how do you do it, Christian, how do you, it's so extraordinary what you do. And it clearly is, it's clearly extraordinary. And it's devastating that it's extraordinary. Yeah. I feel like you're really speaking to the other theme of dismantling the structures within this. Capitalistic consumer society by getting so simple and really holding a container to allow for the organic ecological process to, to be alive, and to breathe Really. And allowing that process, the space to be what it is and what it will be. Which is so antithetical to the top down, mind control, structured, need to maximize or be efficient or, whatever it is. Totally. Yeah, it is antithetical. I really like to say that there are very few either ORs in the cosmos, in the grand great cosmos. Yeah. And belonging and fitting in are one of them. If you are belonging. You are actively working, you're actively undermining the musculature of fitting in. And if you are working towards fitting in, you are actively undermining the musculature of belonging. There're antithetical endeavors. Yeah, that's really fascinating, that distinction and that observation. Because it is true, they are antithetical, aren't they? One is a, is an effortful doing and one is an acceptance of our what is like our primal nature. Yes, absolutely. And that effortful doing is a very prescribed doing. It is that I must change. My unique and ecologically essential shape. My never before seen shape to fit into an already existing shape of your design or desire. You being the culture, society, the tennis club, my, whatever it is. Yeah. And they don't. In order to do that, I have to cha I have to slice something off and I have to deny a thing and I have to subordinate a thing. And I have to make wrong and shame a thing. And I have to just extrude and fit and squish and pretend myself into something that I am not. Yeah. And that is when trauma occurs. Yes. Yeah. When there is an outer agenda imposed onto the organic nature of the body and what the body's desire is. Yeah. I would love to I love this, I love everything that you're illuminating and I would love to. I hope I'm not applying this top town approach by having my mind wanting to like shape this conversation. But because the podcast is organic sexuality, I would love to meditate on how this applies to rewilding, our erotic and ecologically embodied natures. Because my god, I think. We would, those of those of us who are privileged enough to hold space for clients, see the effects of. I think my, I don't know how else to call it, but mainstream parenting where people from, the most, the greatest love in their hearts want their children to thrive, but I feel like in this society, it comes with this wanting to thrive within this structure. And so we need to train these little infants in certain ways before they have a chance to really organically find their own way. Yes. And when that applies to one's sensuality and exploration of their senses and pleasure, it can really lead to, a very, two gendered normative, this is the right way. Girls need to be this way, boys need to be this way. And, all of the things that we're seeing finally, some resistance and progress against. But as far as rewilding, our true undomesticated essence with sexuality and embodiment. As a mother and as a le and as a space holder in this field what do you feel like are things that are audience members can. Start leaning into or exploring one, to give themselves permission to, let's say, lean into this desire, which felt shameful or wrong, or engage in, their friends or lover ships in ways that are more edgy, but more authentic to their desire and nature. How is it okay if we get, more personal here? Of course, you're if that's where the ecological actually say no. Yes. If that's where the mycelium roots want to go, let's go there. Because, I think you know that one of the things that was my desire in participating in this retreat on Salt Spring with the six of us. We, we all had an agenda and then that was a, a kind of high mind agenda. We had a particular desire to explore the realm of psychedelics and somatic sex education. With seasoned practitioners. Would, is there a way that we could imagine a world in which that those really rather disparate. Universes could, or experiences could be woven together. Practically. And that was great. And I had my own agenda, one of which, some of which was that I wanted to apprentice to this idea of erotic friendships. Yes. And this is, so this is actually, we can take my example very specifically, but we can also extrapolate from it that just. Noticing the ways we've been shaped to compartmentalize our human experience and like this is what this is. This is what I do over here with that person. This is what this is and this is what I do with these people right here. And then this is what this is and this is what I do. And nowhere in any wild universe does that exist, aeros arrows is main idea is says who. Its main function is Oh yeah. Oh yeah. These never, this doesn't ever go over here and we don't ever do that with them. And it's just that, that the world, the cos, the cosmology of possibility is such that it wants to disrupt and, co-create and make a mess and see what's possible. See what's possible. Yes. And so it seems, for me, for my part in my ongoing rewilding work on domestication work it right at the moment, among other things it has to do with, wow, I do have these compartments. And I don't like them. I might choose after going through this wonderful apprenticeship to that, my life might not look much different from the outside, but I don't have these compartments that are. These steel boxes placed in the, in my fertile forest that tell me thou shalt not overhear and thou shalt over there. So the idea of erotic friendships being, is it possible for me to extend my experience of. The tending of my physical, sexual, erotic nature. My body, my soul, my spirit with people I'm not partnering with whom I might not even have an overt physical kind of lustful attraction. Is it possible for me to do that with people who were my former students? Oh my God. That's crossing all sorts of boundaries and totally messed me up. Is it possible? And we're talking about in a field of deep, intelligent consent. What happens if I start to disrupt and break down some of the barriers that were put there as you have shared, parental, the barriers parents put up were put there even with the most wonderful and loving intention. Yeah. I'd love that you are being real and bringing your personal experience into this because that's really what it requires for communities and tribes to be. To foster that ecology is to really be transparent and real with each other. Totally. And I'm hearing that this examination of these, this categorization that really happens reflexively, I notice in my own mind, when I meet people, like it happens. And then I'm like why is that the case? Is that really true? And questioning that, and just to your point earlier RO, the nature of Ros is. Chaos and possibility and like we're all sexual beings. And if you would just accept that, then there's sexual potential with anyone. Yes. Yes, there is sexual potential with anyone. And yeah. And when you get right down to it in terms of the erotic nature and and the kind of flavor and. Tone of wildness. There are gonna be certain people who, certain humans who are, who really do a beautiful job of tending to each other's erotic nature. Yes. Sexually erotic nature. But different aspects of us come out with different, with different personalities and can. Open up the field enough to imagine that my sexuality, my intimate sexual expression, and that landscape isn't just for this one person. It's actually the wellbeing of that is a community endeavor. Yeah. I think what you're, I think what you just shared is so true and for some reason in our society today, it feels very like. A rebellious, like wild, but it is so true. It's like when we look at nature and we are expressions of nature, the forest is in its fullest, healthiest when it is all chaotic and wild and intersecting and just really responding to the other elements in nature. Yes. And it's like we have the capacity to do that with all sexual beings, whether they're human or not. Just like the plant world and nature. And we explored that, in our retreat, just in imbibing with the energy of nature and making love and being made love too by, by elements of nature. I mean it's everywhere. And I think like when we take the agenda or like the mental. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's preferences or identity, sexual identity affirmation or like when we take any kind of agenda out of it. It can't not, but expand our experience. Yeah. Like any kind of engagement is gonna Absolutely teach us something more about our potential and our essence and possibility. Totally. And I think that's one of the reasons that psychedelics have been so impactful for many folks is that they really they pick us up where our mental efforting at identifying those enclosures, those arbitrary enclosures. They. Pick us up right where we, have petered out. Like I can't. I know I can't see, I can't see the woods for the trees here. I can't see the enclosure I've been given and that I've adopted 100% and that I'm now forming my life around. And, and Entheogens in particular. But psychedelics just they start there and they toss us into the land of. Oh my God, I don't know anything. Everything's upside down. I'm seeing this tree as the most exquisite lover and it's a tree and I don't even, and it's, and there's not even a questioning of that. Yes. There's not even a questioning of that. Yes. Yeah. I, yeah I get really excited. As far as like throwing that societal top-down imposed structure out the window, like I think psychedelics is such a tremendous aid. Obviously also in creating n neuro pathways and I think somatic pathways in the body. Yes. Like I love. I love taking psilocybin before going to ecstatic dance because I find that my body is dancing in all these new kinds of patterns and movements and, it just opens things up beyond the past patterns. I, I feel like we're touching upon this Margaret Atwood quote which I know has been dear to your dear, to your heart. And the quote is to stop seeing things for what they are called. And instead see them as they are. I feel like that's what we're speaking to. Yeah, absolutely. That's the essence of Rewilding. It's the, it's the essence of says who. I might come out with the same. Not everything gets just tossed out and burn to the ground. Some things are like, yeah, that's actually true about me, and that's true about the world and how I see the world and my place in the world but I, but it comes from my direct experience rather than, as you said, top down. Or outside in. It comes from my visceral, intimate, somatic. Spiritual experience of myself in the world. I gathered the data, I verified the data. Yes, absolutely. I feel like there's certain elements that I wanna underscore in our exploration here. Like one is, how simple it can be to lean into and. Invite the Rewilding experience as we hold space for community gatherings. There doesn't have to be, as you said, some kind of program or agenda or, it, it's just a space, it's just a healthy, invited, warm space for the ecology of community to unfurl. But the other thing that I think is also important is, what you are sharing about. The transparency of us to show up and to be honest with ourselves about our desires. To be honest with ourselves about our desires and our yearnings and our wantings with each other. Can really reveal those kind of imposed mental constraints for what they are and that they're just all in the head. Yeah. They don't have to be a lived in reality. Yes. Yes. I wanna talk about the ethics course. The embodied Ethics course because I have some friends who've taken it. But before we go there, Christian, I wanna ask you as you are engaging in this juicy, beautiful apprenticeship. Of exploring your own personal life and examining what, what has been in the way of your authentic Eros expressing itself or exploring its nature? What have you recognized as the things that have gotten in the way of that maybe were in your blind spots before you took on this apprentice? Because I think they're, we all have those blind spots and we all have this, especially those of us who are in the therapy field and have a lot of clients and hold space and we're put up on a pedestal or seen in a certain way and it can be very limiting when we buy into. The way other people are putting us up on a pedestal. Yeah. Oh. I, this is a topic, this is a terrain. It's not even a topic. It's an entire terrain that I is so juicy and and alive for me. Because it's, it is absolutely the terrain of ethics as I see ethics. Yeah and you're you're asking me what are some of the things I personally am discovering and exploring in this place here. And for me, definitely what I run up against is the dismantling of the externally imposed boundaries and, the thou shalt nots Yes. That I inha, that I inherit from my culture, some of which I don't wanna. Toss out. Sure. Some of which I actually just wanna keep, and some of them I wanna tweak and, refine for myself. Some of 'em I wanna utterly toss out so that I require of myself, that I build my own musculature, my own internal musculature, rather than some external scaffolding I'm relying on of. Oh yeah. Oh, we got to this place. I'm not supposed to do that. And Right. And I, there's no personal responsibility at all. There's nothing internal that just happened there. Yeah. Yeah. It's an external, oh yeah. I'm not supposed to do that. This is what I do in that situation because I don't wanna get it wrong. So for me, when it comes to who it is that I would even begin to imagine I could be erotic friends with, that could be somebody that I would just. Casually make out with and somebody that I might even just, more more practically go to bed with, somebody I actually have sex with or make love with. Who's a friend, who's a friend, who's a colleague who's not a partner. Or a girlfriend or a boyfriend who's not, I run into the whole I've been here for 30 years. I'm a leader in the community. I feel like I have been the mentor or therapist to at least half of the poll population of Boulder. Yes. If I haven't been their therapist or mentor directly, I've been their partners, or I am their sister or brothers or, so that means that I can't do anything with anyone here. I can only do things with people who are very far away. Yes. Who I've never had anything to do with other than, and so in terms of my exploration I've had to, I've had to say says who? Yes. Says who? That's so edgy because I as a nurse person. Take my role of responsibility so seriously. Yes. And I don't wanna change that. Yes. But I don't want it to be limiting. I want it to be enlivening. I want it to be, an act of a role of nobility rather than a. A thing I'll hide behind. Or a thing that that, that diminishes my capacity to be vibrantly nourished. You want it to be expansive. Because it will nourish all of your clients in the circles that you share with and how you show up. It's, it'll be an overwhelm Oh, overflowing of wisdom and energy. Rather than a constrained one. But it is a real dismantling because 30 years of, an evolving position and stature and yes. It's almost like the more experience you have, the more you know things are being projected upon you by, and that's so wonderful to recognize what is authentic to your nature. Yeah. And what's, could be antithetical to your nature. Yes. And I, we'll have to get together in another year because I'm so new here. I couldn't even tell you what I'm really discovering. I'm just still in the sort of yeah. Disorienting phase. Disorienting phase. Yeah. I feel I can confidently say that if any listeners in Boulder are hearing this podcast right now. They're gonna be lining up for your monthly potluck and very excited to test your newfound like boundary expansion practice. I haven't made out with anybody at my potluck yet. Yeah, but just wait. Just wait. That's awesome. That's so awesome. And Christian, I do feel like it's critical that. That we do this. Because we are examples really. Not only as somatic sex educators, but as I don't, like the word leader is just so weird. But we're more public and as examples of what is possible. Yeah. I think it does have a ripple effect. Yeah. And so I think it's, it absolutely does. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So wonderful. So wonderful. Yeah. And thank you for being transparent with our audiences and sharing your process. It's really beautiful. Yes. So I wanted to ask you because I, I was so excited about your Embodied Ethics course and I have friends who have taken it. And because we're like on this theme anyhow, I would love to hear more about. What it is and what is the invitation in the Embodied eth, the Erotically Embodied Ethics course for people who show up to examine within their own lives? I might, I'll repeat myself, but I'll repeat myself now in this specific context and that is that as I've been involved in. Remediation and mediation and repair and transformative justice and restorative justice processes for a long time now across the practitioner modalities. And and. What I can safely say is that our ethical guidelines across modality aren't working. They're not stopping us from. Completely and egregiously falling out of our seats and misusing our power. And and so that, that has someone like me say, because, because I'm trying to see things as they are not as they're called. It immediately has me asking what are we not? What conversation aren't we having and how are we not approaching ethics and what are we not doing that we need to start doing? And so my, the Embodied Ethics courses that I offer, and they're, each of them, is different just as a response to what's happening in the Times. It's a, it's an attempt to at least begin to isolate the conversations we need to be having. So I don't make any promises. It's not a thing where you're gonna come and, become like. Ethics Superman or ethics Superwoman. Yeah. Super person. It's, can we, in some cases people have shared, oh my, I feel even less tethered. But somehow more exhilarated than I was before. I don't feel any more ethical. I feel like I'm questioning everything. And to me, that is ethical. So it's a desire to come up with a different context and intimate experience of ethics. 'cause when we think of ethics, we don't think intimate. We think punitive, we think a fear. A fear of getting it wrong. Fear of being, castigated in some way, fear of being what's, what, whatever the word is, would be across professions, CED in some way. From an authority that is distant and disembodied. And so a lot of what we do is. Let ourselves have an intimate experience of ethical dilemmas. Allow that every single one of us has intimate responses and reactions, responses being our the responses come from our wellbeing. Our reactions come from our wound to any ethical dilemma. And can we create an environment where those are not only welcome but essential. And then once we've really just allowed all the reactions and responses. What arises in each of us in relation to this specific dilemma? We've got just a library of dilemmas, not, there's no dearth of dilemmas based on what's happening in the world, what people bring in from their own personal experience, what past students have brought in. So we'll take a dilemma and we'll work it and we'll bring in our reactions and responses and we'll just let them all be here and we'll just. Breathe together and then we'll see what comes up next. What's my inclination? What's the first thing I wanna attend to? What's my fear here? What's the thing I'm most concerned about? What's the thing I wanna make sure happens? And we come to. At least identify where in a US ethics lives. I love that. Yeah. Just even that yeah. It's here. I feel it. It lives here or it lives here. Or it lives here, or, yeah. It lives in my pelvic floors so much. Whatever it is. Yeah. What you're speaking to is so fascinating because it really. It really illuminates how ethics is so personal and so based on each of our unique histories, and there is no kind of standard, no ethics that you can and yet that is the what's presented to us in our society. Yep. So you are really inviting an examination of each person to take on an ethical dilemma, quote unquote, like in, in each opportunity to see where it lives and how it lives and what is authentic to that person. Yep. Yeah. And depending on the course, will have the, each student, we'll have students upon arriving. Br send me, a short synopsis of an ethical dilemma that's re that's recent enough for them. It's not a live wire ethical dilemma. There's no skin in the game anymore. Because it's in therapy and we're not gonna hold people through an experience. But something they, that they can remember enough to really bring in this the relevant details. And so we might have a whole new pile of ethical dilemmas. In the past we've had that dilemma worked by a council of participants in the class. That doesn't include the person whose dilemma it was. So that person gets to witness. Oh, that's fascinating. And oh, so many things come up, but the, I'm sure the invitation is actually to imagine that ethics might be exactly contrary to what we've been taught. That there isn't a, an external, top-down, outside in set of rote things we will always do in this situation and never do in that situation. That by nature, ethics and ecological ethics are. Mean that there's a thing that is yours to do in this dilemma. And there's a thing that's mine to do in this dilemma. They might be antithetical to each other. It might be just categorically opposed to each other. But it takes a council to see which one. Or which ones are the right way to go forward next given this particular dilemma. So it's really a trusting that there's a, that ethic, that breaches ruptures happen within a system. And the healthy, vibrant ecology is going to. Create the solution, the repair. Yeah. I love that because it really calls upon in that council situation, each person isn't hiding behind a position, but they're actually sharing how it affects them. And making a personal and being transparent about how it affects them. Absolutely. And which, which, is bringing, greater. I don't know, information, support, awareness, insight. To the person who's grappling with the dilemma. That is such a novel way. I can't wait to join the class when it's offered next. Good. I did just figure out the dates. So we're, so you're, we're getting closer. Oh, cool. Cool. Okay. So we're coming to the close of our time here, but Christian, I would be remiss if I didn't at least. Invite you to share something that you're very excited about regarding this next book that is being birthed, that's been gestating. And that is that is being birthed into the world. What are you most excited about regarding this book? Because this is like your fourth one. It's my, yeah, the third one that I that's mine, that came out of me my fourth publishing, hopefully publishing one way or another. Publishing opportunity or experience. Yes. Yeah. And you know what I'll say, Rahi is that I love that you're. Such a fan of the trauma book and the nature of what we're discovering, both scientifically and anecdotally is about the nervous system, what we call the autonomic nervous system. Just the nature of it is that it's changing all the time. And that's just so beautiful. And so the book I would write now, and it was true even by 2019, that the, that I realized, oh God, there's a second edition that I need to write now. And I just, it's, there's, I hadn't, didn't get around to it. Didn't get around to it. And when I started working on this recent project, which was almost was a year and a half ago about, I thought that I was carving out space. To do the second edition of that book. And I was really going to more clearly speak about trauma as a rupture in belonging, because that's, for me, that's all it is. It's just a rupture in belonging. And our response to that, it is, that is very basic and simple and essential. And I'll say mostly I think we're doing it very laboriously if we're at all doing it. Responding properly. And I know that makes me sound like that's just such a. Dictator? No, based on our conversation today it, it makes total sense, in, in context of our conversation. Why you feel that way? Absolutely. Okay. And so I thought that I was gonna be, doing a much larger, it would not be succinct, it wouldn't be efficient. It would probably be a 350 page big deal thing. And in and it turns out I am doing that. But I'm doing it through the hybrid memoir genre. Because what happened is that I realized I, I just went, I turned towards my sabbatical and rolled up my sleeves and got out the old version of trauma and got out my hundreds of pages of notes since then and Wow. And then all of a sudden, started typing and I wasn't typing that I was typing. Wow. And I, and it just became so clear that in order to do it justice, in order to help readers understand how I hold trauma and why what we're calling trauma is not only inevitable, but actually deliberate in our conformist consumer society. It only survives because enough of us are deeply traumatized and so deeply impressionable and vulnerable. I realized I had to tell it through a personal story and the story that I, that was so clear to me was the story of my older son's heroin addiction. And how the family unit, and particularly me and my son and his younger brother, my younger son, the three of us, just how it was that we. The experiences we had. The experiences we had before that, the experiences we had during it, and the experiences we've had just now after that. That I would be able to, that would give me. That would be the through line to everything I wanna say about trauma as a rupture and belonging. And mostly it's just a, it's a book of questions. It's a book of asking questions and attempting to see things as they are not, as they're called. Yes. I don't, it's, it is not a prescriptive book. I have no interest in writing a prescriptive book. But it's just a lot of. A story because that's really what trauma is. Trauma is a story about how safe or unsafe we are in this world. And the inquiries that invites. It sounds like it's a lot of questions and, questioning readers about their lives and their sense of belonging and what can be done in their lives to cultivate an environment that, that makes a sense of belonging the norm And can thrive. Yes. Yeah. That in fact, the singular responsibility of any community would be that it raises its children. To have extraordinary unassailable experiences of their belonging. That's the single most important thing that we do as a community is to ensure that, which is very different than what we're up to right now. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Oh, I can't wait to read it. Christian, thank you so much for sharing yourself and for showing up as you do as you are. In the ways that you do, how do people find out about your potlucks? I don't know if it's like people are gonna be flying in from all over to Boulder once a month for these potlucks but I'm curious, how do people in your community find out about your potlucks? Yeah. To find out about anything. I'm up to it. It's just right there on my website. On the, on your website, christianity com. Okay. Christian pelus.com. It'll be in the show notes along with the Verdant Collective and some of the other things that you offer. Christian, thank you so much. You are so welcome. What a pleasure. I, how was this interview landing in your ecologically erotic embodiment right now? Is there a felt sense of any body parts or erotic inner aspects that have bought into the fallacy of society standards for fitting in or not fitting in as if there is any such thing within the vast cosmos of existence. How would it be to accept and remind these aspects or body parts of their inherent and brilliant nature of belonging? Are there ways your mind has categorized certain members of your various tribes in ways that prevent the natural flow of life force for connection and intimacy? And if so. How would it be to just let this go and open to the infinite possibilities for connection? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Embodiment & Expression, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Erotic Embodiment & Awakening the Body Electric](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) **Published:** February 8, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Craig’s journey of erotic and sexual embodiment and liberation is a beautiful trajectory of love, service and dedication. His transformational spiritual/erotic experience as a participant in a Body Electric workshop, lead to assisting, then teaching and eventually directing The Body Electric organization, guiding it to new realms of inclusion and expansion. He shares candidly essential elements of his various experiences as a participant that became the ingredients to sacred space-holding as a coach, teacher and director. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Erotic Embodiment & Awakening the Body Electric # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore erotic embodiment as a path of awakening and how reconnecting to sensation restores vitality with Craig Cullinane. You’ll learn how the body becomes a source of aliveness, pleasure, and expression. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Craig-Cullinane-thumb.jpg "Craig-Cullinane-thumb | Rahi Chun") Craig’s site: [CraigCullinane.com](https://www.craigcullinane.com/) The Body Electric: [BodyElectric.org](https://bodyelectric.org/) [The Erotic Liberation Podcast](https://craigcullinane.podbean.com/) Craig Cullinane recently served a 4-year period as Director of the Body Electric School, which offers expertly guided educational experiences grounded in the erotic and its integration with the sacred, to foster transformative personal and communal healing. He has also served on the Body Electric faculty for more than ten years. As a coach, he supports his clients in centering their most treasured desires with simple habits that translate into real results. For 6 years, Craig was the Director of Programming for Rehabilitation Through The Arts (RTA), inviting incarcerated people into a process of growth and healing through artistic expression. Craig holds a Master’s degree in Service, Leadership, and Management from the SIT Graduate Institute. ## What You’ll Learn About Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening $ How the 1st guiding principle of the Body Electric is that the work be SACRED. $ How the Body Electric was pivotal in my journey of erotic embodiment and the conscious circulation of sexual energy. $ How many queer men experiencing body dysmorphia can be healed by the rituals and practices facilitated in Body Electric workshops. $ How the power of walking through one’s fears regarding body image and sexuality whilst being witnessed by others walking through similar fears can be incredibly healing and shame-releasing. $ How “shame dies in the light” – by holding the individual and group with a quality of care and providing agency to the body’s free choice and consent, the body befriending the truth of its inner worthiness getting that “I’m going to be alright,” invites its organic life force the freedom to be true to itself $ How slowing down, going inside, having the courage to feel what is and being with what is alive in the body and with one’s feelings, cultivates the capacity to stay with whatever is happening – expanding one’s capacity for greater pleasure, greater self-awareness and greater love. $ How making a date with your erotic self and breath, taking time to touch your own skin and getting intentional about self-pleasure can awaken the entire body as an erotic organ. $ How the BE evolving from a privately owned company to not-for-profit status during Covid lead to an experimentation with a wide variety of online classes for cultivating self-pleasure practices. $ How the BE evolved from a teaching staff of largely white gay men to a diverse inclusive array of trainers with great intention to make BE for everyone. $ How the 30-day porn cleanse – invited people to create their own experiment – leading to realizations of how porn can be used as distraction, unexpressed grief, and what can arise when I don’t have this thing to manage my feelings. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Joseph Kramer and sexological bodywork ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/joseph-kramer-sexological-bodywork/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Extended lovemaking principles and practices](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Craig Coane to the podcast. Craig's Journey of erotic and sexual embodiment and liberation is a beautiful trajectory of love, service, and dedication. His transformational spiritual, erotic experience first as a participant in a body electric workshop led to assisting, then teaching and eventually directing the Body Electric Organization, guiding it into new realms of inclusion and expansion. He shares candidly essential elements of his various experiences as a participant. That became the ingredients. To Sacred Space holding containers as a teacher and as director, he also shares the incredible gift that the Body Electric plays in offering safe spaces for all communities. So today I am very excited to invite Craig Cullinane to the podcast. A little bit about Craig. He just finished serving as the director of the Amazing Body Electric School for the last four years, and he served on the Body Electric faculty for more than 10 years. As a coach, he supports his clients in centering their most treasured desires with simple habits. Translate into real results, which is what we all really want. For six years, Craig was the director of programming for rehabilitation. Through the arts, our TA inviting incarcerated people into a process of growth and healing through artistic expression. Craig also holds a master's degree in service leadership and management. Very cool. From the SIT Graduate Institute a little bit about the Body Electric in case you're not familiar with them. Their mission. The Body Electric School offers expertly guided educational experiences grounded in the erotic. Its integration with the Sacred to foster, transformative, personal and communal healing. They have a long, they have a number of guided principles. The ones that really jumped out at me is that the work of the body electric is sacred. The practice of staying in heart, connection with self and others, cultivating the experience of wholeness, and that the body electric is a movement of liberating, erotic aliveness. Craig, thank you so much for being with us today. This is fantastic. Thank you. I was so happy to be here with you. Thank you. Yeah. As I was sharing with you before we started recording my very first experience of conscious, intentional cultivation of embodied. Sacred erotic energy was through a two and a half day workshop with the Body Electric. This was in 1990. I wasn't sure what I was getting myself into, to be honest with you. I was 24. I was the youngest person in the class. Wow. There were like, yeah, there were like 25 or 30 other men and using breath as the engine, we, we rebirthed ourselves using erotic energy and I was like electric and buzzing for a week after that. Yes, absolutely. Craig. I can say it changed my life because it really took me on the trajectory of what I've been doing since so it changed my life too, for sure. Yeah. So I wanna answer your question. Yes, of course. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. How, what? How did you find your way to it? How did you get there? Back in the nineties, there was a really cool holistic bookstore called the Bodhi Tree here in Los Angeles. And, back then I was an acting school. I was still a student, and I went to the Bodhi Tree and I just saw a flyer for it. And I don't even remember what it said, but somehow I was guided to it. I some sacred erotic angel put that flyer up just for you. Exactly. Exactly. Totally. And and thank God I just followed my way over there. So Craig I love starting these interviews by asking our guests about. The pivotal junctures in their journey of erotic embodiment. And how that led you to the Body Electric. I'd love to know about your Yeah. Your path and what Erotic Angels guided you to experiencing the journey you have. Boy. Gosh, that's such a good question. I grew up in a very kind of, I grew up in an Irish Catholic, new England family, and there was nothing about sex and everything was secret and hidden and, in the closet and under the bed and, and just there wasn't a lot of. Conscious, erotic anything, other than don't do it or something that wasn't spoken about. And I think I emerged from that in the world when I left my family's home at 18. I actually had a deep experience of holding and carrying a lot of body shame, a lot of chronic body shame that I think a lot of people experience. I think a lot of, queer men experience body dysmorphia and it was really crippling for me. It was I couldn't take my shirt off at the beach. I couldn't there, it was such a wall for me between, for intimacy with men, erotically, sexually. I came out when I was like 19, but it was like, I wasn't going into erotic or sexual experiences with people with a lot of intention or with a lot of the capacity to really stay and be with it and explore pleasure or any of those things. And on some level, I think, that comes later as you mature. But I really walked with a lot of shame and it was painful and difficult, and so for me, I was in a life change in my life. I had been living in New York City for many years, and that had a lot of sex. I had a lot of encounters with folks, and I, in some ways enjoyed it. And, but it was the first time I took Body Electric. I was 33. Oh, wow. I was living at East Mountain, which is a gay men's retreat center in upstate New York. I have finished up my time in New York City and I was about to go to graduate school and I had the summer off, so I lived there. And the deal was that if you live there, if you work there, you can take a workshop of your choice as like the work study part. And at the end of the summer, body Electric came in and you know what? I didn't even know anything about it. I didn't honestly know what it was. I hadn't heard that much about it. But something deep inside me said that, wow, do that. And I listened and I went and, not to talk a lot about what happens in the workshop, but one of the things that does happen is this very beautiful and honoring undressing ritual. Where you are consciously undressed in these layers of separation, these metaphors of clothing, of your layers of separation, or peeled away in this very beautiful and honoring way. And it was so deeply touching to me. It just healed something inside. Something about honoring my body, honoring. Just acknowledging how much of this negative thought I had about it and how hard that was. And some, so something shed or opened up or something. And then I went through the process of the experience and I got into my body. I got into pleasure. I woke up pleasure. I woke up the breath, I woke up all of it. And in the end of the experience, I had a very deeply profound personal kind of, I don't know. I can only say it was like a. A connection to the divine. Wow. I was wrapped up in this sheet and I felt like I was completely merged with all things. Like I wasn't experiencing separation. It's like I had come home somehow to some deep connection with all things, and something just fell away that I didn't need. And I emerged from that. And that really began a major journey for me in my life. I took the workshop again, I started assisting them. I was the coordinator in Boston, joined the faculty. So Body electric and that experience I is definitely the most profound single moment of a portal. Yes. Into healing, aliveness, connection service. Yeah. I say I, I say the body electric is the work of love. It's the work of loving ourselves, our bodies, other people of the world, yes. Yeah, I would say that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, that's so amazing the way you describe it, and it really speaks to that principle that the work of the body electric be sacred. I hear. The sacredness of that that unclothing ritual. It was a ritual really. It was like this, it was a ritual, this beautiful, honoring ritual and when you're being witnessed with such reverence and sharing that experience with other people. Yes. It is just Wow. And I just wanna say there was something important about me walking to that and through that myself, and facing myself and being with my fear as I walked through it. And to be held by all these other people who are walking through their own fear like we were all in it together. Yeah. Something very powerful about that. Go on. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No. I'm glad you underscore that because I do think there's some sort of creative al like collective alchemy that happens when everyone is breaking through, yes. They there previously. Shame barriers together. There's just an unleashing of this stored energy that everyone Yes. It's palpable. Everyone can feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Craig I wanna, I wanna ask you, because you were, you've been on faculty for over a decade and you've been director of the institute and I'm guessing that, really re metabolizing and un spooling that shame and guilt, especially from our developmental years, it is such a core part of the experience. In your years of teaching and directing I'm wondering if you could share some insights as to what you feel really contributed to the space. Allowing for that for participants. For specifically, because shame can go so deep, especially with our sexuality, in our bodies. Yeah. Yeah. And the experiences of the Body Electric have been like skilled at really. Holding that safe container and allowing, this kind of thing to un unravel. What do you feel like, because we have a lot of somatic sex educators in our audience, and a lot of what they deal with are clients who have a lot of shame about their body, their sexuality, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. I think one of the things I think that Body Electric does really well. Is care for the participants. Like we have a deep instinct and the teachers that I've had have a deep instinct about how do we hold not only the individual, but the group with such care and with intention, right? And so of course we have very clear norms and agreements and practices that we come back to again and again. And you know what I notice? I just taught last weekend in New York City and what I notice is. Once those norms and agreements are in place, once people begin to feel like they can settle in and their body begins to get oh, this is gonna be all right. They're caring for me. I'm safe. There's options for me if I don't want to participate or if they're, if I need to get outta, once the, their body starts titrating and the nervous system starts to settle and they really get, okay I'm okay. Then it's actually not. Very challenging anymore. It's like some deep love or the best parts of ourselves have permission to start activating. And I talk about that a lot. We talk about that a lot, that the Body Electric workshop and other places too, that do this well. It's a place to practice the best parts of ourselves. It's the place to pr to have a space where you can practice being the most generous. The most involved in your own self-care. Who am I as a giver? Who am I as a res, as a receiver. Can I have the space to really listen deeply to what I'm available for and what I'm not? And I think that what it does is it allows, 'cause I think about shame and guilt and all of that. It's like this shroud. That, that obscures the truth of our worthiness. It's, the truth is, we're worthy. The truth is we're love. The truth is we're goodness. And the shame stories and the guilt stories, they're shroud. And once those begin to soften and once breath comes into the picture, and once we wake up a little bit and activate that life force within us some of that shroud begins to fall away. And some of the natural. Worthiness that lives in all of us takes more of center stage. And then the question becomes how do we get in relationship with that? Yeah. How do we befriend the truth of our inner worthiness? And the, and in my experience, one of the things that Body Electric is beautiful for is that we get to practice that. How can I really hold space for another person's process with compassion? How can I listen deeply? When we start practicing those things, all of this goodness starts to flow. It just has to be. Yeah. I love all of that. What I'm hearing is you know, like the deep care, the safety, and it's really what you said earlier about people having the choice to participate or not, it's like you're giving agency, you're restoring agency and free choice to their body and within such a container where there is this impeccable. Kind of standard that everyone agrees to of holding space, giving and receiving. The natural life force can, like really Yes. Claim the space. Yes. And it wants to it's absolutely, it's like when we stop giving so much of our energy to all of the things that block it. It's gonna flow and then that's, and then that's such a wonderful thing to be like what does this feel like? How does it feel in my body to have my energy be flowing? What does it feel like in my body to experience pleasure? To get in relationship with pleasure. One of the great contra principles, pleasure is healing. Of course. Yes, of course. Yeah. So powerful. So powerful. Wow. Something else I wanted to ask you about Craig is I'm curious about. People say, if you wanna learn something, study it. If you wanna master it, then teach it. And, I know you've been teaching for over a decade. Yeah. With the Body Electric as well as directing it. I'm wondering when you stepped into the role of teacher, after you had, taken the courses, been really, your life changed, you assisted, and then you started, you got on the faculty. Did that, do you feel like that really. Put you on the fast track of your own kind of erotic IQ and your own kind of awareness of your body's eroticism. And if so I'm wondering if they were, if there were specific junctures that really expanded that for you as a tea while you were teaching. Boy, gosh, yes. It's great. It's really wild because yes, and and also like I have my stuff, sure. I have the ways that I'm, I am not actualized or I have the ways that I am, the parts of me that that are not as realized as I would like and. All of it's in the mix. And then there's all these other ways that I've flowered and unfolded as neurotic being in the world. I think one of the biggest journeys for me personally, I am I'm just such a natural extrovert. For whatever reason, like that's how I am. Like I'm so relational and I'm so about like how I experience the energy of groups and and how that impacts my energy. That for me, the new frontier was really slowing down and really going inside and really being willing to quiet down enough and have the courage to just feel what I feel. I think that all of us can be so distracted, of course. And why wouldn't we be in this world and all this? But to actually do the simple yet not easy task of just touching base, slowing down, giving my attention to what's actually alive in my body and my feelings. Cultivating that relationship, that capacity to stay, to learn, to stay. Yeah, with whatever's happening whatever's happening, that more than anything has been my major learning edge as a person and as a facilitator of this work. And I noticed more and more, 'cause I think at first when I first started teaching, I was like, it was all about the drumming and the music and the show of it and the energy and all. That's beautiful and all that's part of it too. And it's useful. But now what I notice is I'm a lot more about. Let's take that sacred pause. Let's just, slow your touch down. Let it come to stillness. People receiving touch. Take a breath. What are you feeling now? What are you aware of? Let's cultivate and right now practice our capacity to stay and to actually discern what I'm feeling. Yeah. As an entry point for greater pleasure, for greater self-awareness, for greater love. So for me, I'd say that is the, is has been a major arc in my personal learning. Yeah. And of course it's about, oh I can see the ways that I like, as a mechanism, a defense mechanism or a strategy of managing my feelings. Like just, how I can seek comfort uhhuh instead of staying, and how I wanna avoid bad feelings or feelings that are painful. Avoid feeling shame doesn't feel good. Sure. Yeah. And it's kinda okay, here it is, and I'm learning more and more that if I can stay with it, it actually transmutes, it actually has a chance to leave and becomes something different. Yeah. Craig, I love what you're sharing because this is where I think eroticism is really spiritual. When we slow the process down, as you described, and we're just being with what is, it's like it, it opens up our capacity to be with this. Infinite space of being. Yeah. And I kind, part of me wonders like when you described your experience at the end of that first, body, electric weekend workshop Yeah. Where you just felt this wholeness, this like oneness with everything, yes, it was the breath, it was being embodied, but I also wonder if it was really. Being so profoundly with exactly what is that there's no separation between your experience and the whole of everything. Yeah. That's how it felt. And it was. It was rare, but familiar somehow still. Yes. I, I think it's familiar because it goes back to, the wholeness of being in the womb or, maybe even before that, I think the body remembers that, that sensation, that experience. But, I really feel like 'cause you know what you, when you described that. At the end of the workshop, how you felt this sense of universal wholeness and oneness. I felt that too at the end of my weekend workshop and I feel like, the keys are simple, but they're very profound. The container Yes. Of safety and permission. It does require people to really put their egos aside and come with heart and service, but I feel like it's, it could be a gateway to this, like spiritual, I don't know, this spiritual embodiment experience that I'm sure a lot of Body electric graduates and people can relate to. Yes. Yeah I would love, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. I want our audiences to to know what some of those simple yet profound principles and practices are. You had shared in one of the blog videos on the Be site, some of these tools of really exploring the whole body as the terrain towards eroticism. As an example. But I'd love for our audiences to, to know what some of the simple key practices are within the Body Electric workshops that they can explore at home. Yeah. No, it's wonderful. There's a wonderful quote by Stuart Wild. How do you make something sacred? You say, this is sacred, and then you treat it that way. And I think that, that's part of it. It's sacred, it's an interesting word. And it means different things to different people. And it's not necessarily religious or it's more what do I vest with importance. What do I say is meaningful to me? And I think an also useful question is, what do I wish was sacred? But I don't treat that way. Good question. It's you know what do I wish I gave more importance to? I know if I really ask myself. I have the great pleasure of teaching a weekly online course. It's called Men's Morning Erotic Practice. And it's like a yoga, erotic yoga class where I guide people through. An experience of breath work and self touch and self-pleasure, and there's meditation and there's a little group connection, and I would say. Again, what you were saying about this video blog. I like to say, this idea of awakening our entire body as a neurotic organ, like our skin is our largest organ, and it's like moving the attention away just from the genital to the whole body. So I honestly think that one of the greatest things that we can do is just take a little time just to put our hands on our own body and touch our skin. Imagine you're like just covering your skin with some wonderful honey love lotion or something, or just slowing down enough to touch your own body. Simple but profound. Profound. And I don't think people think about it. It's we need soothing. Sometimes there's not someone there to do that for us, right? Like we can do it for ourselves, and if we just place our hands on our own body, for two minutes Yeah. Five minutes and just offer ourselves touch. Maybe not even necessarily in a erotic way. There is just a huge practice, I think. Yes. Yes. I think a practice of getting intentional about erotic pleasure, self pleasure. Yes. And we have so many stories and culture about masturbation and wrong and bad and shames systems and all of it. There are lineages and practices about if we tap and raise and spread erotic energy in our body it is a source of. Aliveness, creativity. Health, longevity, connection, intuition. Yeah. Meaning intuition, spirit, everything. Everything. We have, in Body Electric during the, weekend, the experie, the intro weekend, there's always a sex talk, and I always start it by saying this kind of cheekily, I say perhaps like me. When you were 13 or 14 and becoming pubescent, the elders of the village brought you to the temple of Eros to instruct you in all of the, great lineages of pleasure and erotic aliveness, right? And everybody just laughs of course, because nobody had that experience because culturally we're so terrible. Yeah. That erotic education Sure. In this world, yes. It's so filled with shame. It's so misguided. And it's you look at, the impact of pornography and it's just, that's where people are learning and Yes, and I always this, I ask this question like, what did you learn about masturbation and where did you learn? And it's fascinating to hear what people say about, oh a magazine that my dad had or my brother had under his bed or more and more, of course it's pornography with younger people. Yeah. That's their first entry into sexual anything. And so going back to your first question, I think one of the most profound and simple things people can do is turn off the screen. And make a date with your erotic self? Yeah. Spend 20 minutes, like what would it mean if I like put on some music, got some lube? And just pleasured my body and used my breath. The breath is another fundamental piece of it all. How do I activate my breath for pleasure? The more I breathe, the more I feel. But if we can. Think to ourselves like, how can I get there? How can I get to 20 minutes of just offering myself nourishing, yummy, erotic touch? And you don't even have to ejaculate if you don't want. And actually that's interesting too. There's a big story about ejaculation. The Daoists in 500, BC China were experimenting with going long periods of time without ejaculating. 'cause they believed that our ejaculate was our source of power and helpfulness and they would say that ejaculating depletes our energy and our life force. So I would say. Can I touch my body? Just spend time touching my own skin? Can I create a little space to explore? Pleasure, erotic pleasure? Without screams? Can I activate my breath? Cultivate my breath as my friend? Yeah. And scheduling some pleasure time. Yes. Some exploration time scheduling. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause it starts to build a muscle, right? It starts to build like a work, like a a muscle around the erotic, around embodiment, around self-loving. Yes. Yes. And that can evolve into a lifestyle which is, healthy for everyone. Yeah, we've been doing this morning class on Wednesdays for almost two years now, and Wow. People who have been coming from the beginning are like just that one hour a week. They are noticing, real changes in how they walk in the world. Wow. How inhabit their own body, their sense of confidence. Awesome. I'm really interested in, awakening the inner sexiness in us. Yes. Yeah. You, I didn't you have a class on that, right? Like a, an online class? Yeah. Yep. It's awake. This is for men folk awake, your inner sexy man. And it's who am I if I tap that inner sexiness and I activate it and I walk in the world from that place? Yeah. I like to give this homework assignment, for this whole week. Every time you walk down the street. Just walk like down the street, like you're the sexiest guy in the street. Oh, I love it. That is in competition to anybody else, but just what does it feel like to be like, who am I? How am I, how would I walk? How would I feel? Like fake it till you make it, activate it from within and experience it and see what happens. Huh Uhhuh. Oh, that sounds like so much fun. That's awesome. But it's really, I think it's when I see kids, they're so embodied. They're so tactile. They're like sharing their affection with each other and somewhere along the line we get conditioned out of it. And it feels embracing your inner sexiness and all these practices are just returning us to our organic nature, really. Yes, exactly right. It's just an invitation to be in relationship with that beautiful, buoyant life force energy. The erotic Yes. Yes. It's, jean Houston, her great book. The oh, I forget the name of the book. Oh no. The Search for the Beloved by Jean Houston. She talks about erotic energy or aeros as the lure of muchness. Where we are spiced and seeded and activated and evoked into becoming, right? It's this umbrella of, if I'm, if I've got access to my own erotic energy, my life force energy, and it's in my body, it informs everything. It informs, and it does every sense. It forms how I eat food and it create creative, work, life, everything. It's an umbrella, not just sex. Yes. Yes. I think that is the that's the misunderstanding that people have about eros and erotic energy. It really is the aliveness, yes. That informs everything as you said. Our intuition, our creativity, our love, just a love for our fellow being, all of that. Yes. Yeah. I'm curious during your I want people to get a sense of the body electric and, because, when I did my workshop back in 1990, I think it was just workshops for men. Yeah. And 25 years ago, it's really evolved into all genders. There's a lot of. BIPOC workshops. There's a lot of Yeah. All women workshops. It's really for everyone. And I've been so impressed because I saw on the on the website like a whole thing, like a Jedi Committee on Justice Equity. Diversity inclusion you guys support like violence against women, land acknowledgement of the peoples. It's really incredible. I'd love to know during your tenureship as director what was it like for you to step in, from being a participant to assistant to faculty and then stepping into guiding this incredible Yeah. Like this incredible force and and during your tenureship I'm curious how, like where was the energy guiding you to lead it? Yeah. God, that's a, yeah. It was, it was a wild ride and you know the let me first say that it wasn't just me. It was many people, there were a lot of incredible people who loved Body Electric who care about it so much and I think that Body Electric at that time really when I started imagining stepping into offering some leadership, it was probably like spring of 2018. And at that time I see, I think the school was in a period of some contraction, like it had. I think it's, the next year is our 40th anniversary of Body Electric. Wow. It started. Yeah. And over the years it expanded and contracted and, Sure. Directors and different this and that. And I think that the owner at that time was really ready to get out. And was, we were trying to investigate a way to do that. And and also it had also, body Electric had always been organized as a privately owned company, not in May, mostly because of the nature of the work. It seems simpler in some ways, but it always felt like it wanted to be a not-for-profit organization. It's a community organization. It's an educational. Organization. So when I stepped in with a group of other people to imagine this transition from the former owner we knew that we wanted to transition into a not-for-profit organization. I see. 'cause the truth is there's a lot of people. Yeah. It was huge. Ands a lot of people who've been impacted by Body Electric and so in some ways we had some really generous people supporting us because I see their lives had been touched by the work. Of course. Totally. So it took maybe like to the beginning of 2019 to make, to get the deal on the contract. And we purchased the school from the former owner and then basically myself and this amazing woman named Sarah Zeal. And our great friend Andre Andres Cero basically ran the school for 2019. And we liked to say that we were, trying to, fix and drive a car going 80 miles an hour, wow. Because we didn't stop any programming and we just had to go into this transition of it. Wow. And so we spent that year just getting our sea legs of 2019 on how do we do this? And we built the board of directors and we applied for enough for-profit status and all of that. And it took a year to get the not-for-profit status. And I was, that was lots of sleepless nights for me. 'cause I was like, in this Trump era. Maybe they're gonna say no to the nature of the work and all of this and Right. We had to go through like a pass through organization for the dona. It was just a huge experience. Oh my God. And luckily we had this very dedicated advisory group that met every week who really held it together all of us. And then COVID hits. Of course. And there goes, like with everybody there goes the business model. But Right. We had a desire to create an online experience for Body Electric that we called bringing Body Electric Home. And again, it's 'cause what, what Body Electric did really was bring people to these amazing peak experiences, but there wasn't a lot in between. I see. Which sometimes felt. Like not responsible almost sometimes, I understand. Like, how do we bring, but it was like, here we are. This is what we can do. But what the so basically when COVID hit, we just slapped like a zillion online classes up and people were so desirous of connection. I taught a class that I developed called Daoist Eroticism, and I taught it probably 16 times in 2020. Wow. Oh my God. They filled because people were just like, I need to be in connection. And all of those classes were about like, how do I cultivate a self-pleasure practice? We did like anal pleasure classes. How do you learn how to pleasure yourself, ally? How do you, we did art and arrows. We did lots of things. We tried all kinds of different experiments and the online experience allowed us to be experimental. And it. Checked a lot of boxes for us to make it through COVID until we got back to Christian workshops in 2021. I see. So that was a huge thing. And then another major thing that was happening was. I'm 53 years old and I was the youngest teacher by far. And all the other teachers were like mid sixties or older, and we needed to train this next generation. So we brought in 15 people. Wow. All genders, all bodies, all races, all cultural ethnicities. And we were just like, alright. And so now we have those people teaching our workshops. Oh my gosh. And there was a huge desire of course, to, body Electric has always typically been like white gay men mostly. And we were like, look, we need to broaden this. We need to do our work. We need to figure out how to welcome other kinds of people into this experience. So we started, we've started experimenting with, men of color, body lifting workshops. We're actually having our first bipoc women of color one in June. And, all genders. Oh, the women's work started really in the nineties, so that's been happening for a long time. Okay. And so has the all genders work, that's been happening for a long time and it, we just have been continuing to grow in and expand it. And we did a big retreat, a visioning retreat in 2019. And one of the biggest kind of communal pieces of wisdom that came from the experience almost Shamanically, was body electric is for everyone. Wow. It's a gift to the world, and if it if that's true that it's for everyone, then we need to do our work to figure out how to make these spaces safe and accessible to lots of different kinds of people who experience their eroticism differently. Yeah. What you're offering is such a gift to. Any embodied ero erotic being, yes. Regardless of, just what you said, ethnicity or gender or anything. And so to make it available to every erotic being who's willing is just feels right, yeah. Because it is such a gift that you guys have cultivated. But Craig, I'm blown away that during a four year tenure, you went from a private to nonprofit. You have made it multi-generational. 'cause as you said, you were the youngest teacher, now you've got like a new generation of teachers and you've really expanded. We've broadened the appeal to, really anyone of any, like any being, much less go through COVID and navigate that whole thing. That is amazing. That is amazing. There was a lot of people who worked very hard and who loved the work and are dedicated to it. It was far from just me and, for whatever reasons, because I was like positioned as I was and I was a teacher for the school, and I had all these different jobs. I knew the the school, yeah. It made sense that I was the director at that time, when, yeah. But, our board of directors is incredible. There's so much that people have given and still continue to, we have a new director, a wonderful man named Tom Kovac, who's taken on the directorship of the school. And I trust him so much and he is such a good man. And he knows and loves the work. Awesome. And that's what's most important. Yeah. Yeah. That is the most important. So I'm curious, during this time of ex when it's almost like permission to experiment online. Yeah. To see, I'm guessing that the body electric, like I'm guessing people found you from all over the world, I'm guessing, right? So many more. Hundreds and thousands of people started getting to know us and yeah. Because guess what? Stepping in is your first experience to a naked weekend is a big step for people. Exactly. For some people. Exactly. So the online thing allows us this onboarding piece where they get to know us and they go, what is this about? And then they get to know us, right? Yeah. Yeah, and there's all kinds of interesting classes. Like I just this wonderful erotic educator teach psycho psychotherapist in New York, Don Chewy, I. He and I just for the second time, finished an online class called, we call it the 30 day Porn Cleanse. The pause that refreshes. Ooh, nice. Nice. So it's like, what's the experiment of getting space from my porn habit? What? What happens? What liberates, right? Myself and this wonderful teacher in Seattle, Mark Fleming a couple times, I've taught a class called Healing Body Shame. For GT men. And there's lots of really interesting experiments, in the online world, so yeah. It gives us a lot of options. Yeah, totally. What a way to take that. Opportunity and really experiment and run with it. That's terrific. But before you get off of the class that you and Don taught, about the 30 day porn cleanse, yeah. I think there are gonna be listeners who would like to know what these people what the 30 day cleanse revealed, or what people discovered about their bodies or their habits. Yeah. I think that we are creatures of habit, indeed. And if we just have to step back and look at it, it's if I just think about how I engage with pornography and if I can just look at it through the lens of this is just a habit. Take away the judgment, take away the, oh, this is wrong or bad, or whatever people experience and just watch it. Yeah. Oh, I have a habit and I have a habit where I, it's at the end of the day and I'm tired and I want to go to sleep and I throw on the screen and I watch something and da and then notice it and go what's the impact? How does it impact my energy, my body? How does it impact my connection with other people, my sex life? That, it can have an impact, right? And so what we do is we invite people to create their own experiment. Like some people are like, I'm not watching porn for 30 days. And guess what happens? Feelings arise. Things that they haven't, using porn as a way to disconnect or to distract. Feelings come up. I noticed we, we did it for the first time at the beginning of 2022, and it felt like a lot of people, what was coming up for folks was a lot of unexpressed grief. Wow. Grief from COVID, grief from whatever. So a lot of that. So it's like what arises when I don't have this thing that I'm using to manage my feelings? That's one thing. Some people are like, that's a huge thing. It's a huge thing. It's massive. Yeah, it's huge. And I wonder the degree to which people realize that they are avoiding, that they're using porn to avoid their feelings. They're not going to it to get sexually turned on, but they're, under, underneath that it's to avoid whatever feelings are coming up. Yeah, definitely can be. And so then the question of course, again, it goes back to how do I learn to befriend my feelings? How do I learn to stay? What's the value of that? Because you know it if we're going to the distraction, it numbs us. And if it numbs us in some places, it numbs us everywhere. And that means less joy, less pleasure. Some people were like I'm still gonna watch porn, but I'm just gonna be really intentional and conscious in my body when I do it. I'm gonna breathe when I do it. I'm gonna move when I do it. I'm gonna see what that's like. So different people had different experiments, but, what was best about it and which is best about it, is the beautiful honesty and vulnerability of the people who take the class where they just come and they go, wow. I'm not alone. And I'm hearing people share their struggles with this and I'm resonating with it. And again, it's like I come in with my own stuff, but I'm in this with other people. Yeah. That's that's such a healing bomb, isn't it? Yes. When it comes to sexuality, I think so much of the shame comes from people thinking they're the only, that they're a freak, or they're the only one they have, that they're only one thinking about these weird fantasies, or they have these weird habits or whatever it is, and to realize, no, you're not the only one. It's actually very common. Maybe it's the norm, it just takes the sting out. Yeah. You say shame dies in the light. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Craig I'm curious where I know you had a four year stint as director and where little less than four, almost four years, little less than four. I'm curious where you feel like the Body Electric is going from here and. Where are you personally going from here? 'cause that's a big shift in your own life to, to step down as director. Yeah. Body electric I've often felt, and I've said. Has its own shockti. Like I feel like Body Electric has its own consciousness. It has its own desire for how it wants to be in the world. And it happens through people. It happens through the people. And I think that Body Electric will continue to offer that. Tried and true workshops that have been honed over many years. Yes. And I think that's good. I think we need to hold onto what works in terms of the Yeah. Architecture of humans and their eroticism. I think Body Electric will keep the ways that we continue to really deeply care for our participants, as a baseline. There's lots of places it's going d different kinds of containers. D we're imagining, like you said, things for people of color, just for people of color or maybe spaces that are just for non-binary or trans folks. Just creating lots of spaces where people feel welcome to explore themselves. I think that's the key. And it can look a lot of ways. And yeah, so cool. I would love it to go more internationally. We are in Australia Yeah. And Canada, and we have been in Israel, Uhhuh. But, it wants to go abroad and I think that's a good idea. Yeah. I'm as curious as you are to see where it's gonna go, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. And for me personally, I just, I'm still teaching for the school. I'm the host of our podcast, which you're gonna be on. Yes. Yes, the Erratic Liberation Podcast, which is a joy. Yes. And I've basically, my soul, my spirit, my inner self has been calling for me to cast out on my own. I'm a coach and, I'm in this place right now of really building my coaching practice where I'm supporting people in so I guess what I would call cultivating their soul habit. Wonderful. Centering their deepest longings and their connection with self as a way, as a foundation for their beautiful lives. And I'm excited about that. So I'm teaching I'm teaching my own workshops, my own things that I love. One thing that I really love and care about is and I've done this with Body Electric and I'm, I've done it outside of Body Electric too, is, i'm teaching a course down in Ashe, Asheville called creativity and Eroticism. So that's what, that's my dream. It's if we tap and raise this pleasure energy and this tribal commun communal experience and then paint, or write or move, yes. Who am I? What can I be, who am I as neuro as a creative being? That's what I love. And I wanna do that all over the world. I wanna do that like for a week in Bali or wherever. Yeah. And that's my awesome that's where I'm going, so Cool. Cool. Yeah. I feel the excitement in your body as you share that. That's really wonderful. Two things really, like what you spoke about as far as your private coaching practice of getting people in touch with their deepest longing, there like meeting their deepest, erotic core. And living from that place that's right. Wow. That's like it, yeah. Yeah. And then, to invite people to create from that erotic joy. Yeah. I just imagine the energy radiating from the art, yeah. How can Craig, how can people find you? Craig linine.com or on Facebook? Yeah. Okay Craig Linine, so that's C-U-L-L-I-N-A-N-E. Craig Cullinane. I, so I'm launching my website right now, so if you go there, you're gonna see some landing pages of some stuff I've done, but you can kind, you can connect from me to me from that place. Or also I'm on Facebook. Cool. And Craig Lenane coaching on Facebook. But I'm gonna have my beautiful website that this wonderful man is helping me with, I'm excited about. And yeah, so it's growing, it's building or you could, maybe find me through the Body Electric website, but Sure. I would, yeah. That's how Awesome. Awesome, awesome. I look forward to seeing the incredible website, and I will know that this person has created it from his erotic core. Yes. And I'm so excited to have you as our guest on on the Erotic Liberation Podcast. Yeah, I'm excited about that too. It's right around the corner. It'll be so much fun. Wonderful. Craig, thank you so much for being with us today. I really, I just really honor your path and thank you. Yeah. And just, what you had to share with us today is it, it goes to the principles of so much of what the body electric hold space for, which is simple but profound and really, you know what I wish for everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you's such a pleasure. I really appreciate this conversation. Thank you. How are the themes from this interview landing in your body right now? Are there ways you can bring more sacredness to your experiences of your sexuality, whether in your self pleasuring rituals or lovemaking experiences? Are there ways to cultivate deepening your heart connection with yourself and with your lover or lovers during your erotic expression? Are there ways your exploration of your sexuality for yourself can also serve as an act of liberating, erotic aliveness for the world? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Embodiment & Expression, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [The Four Phases of Erotic Liberation (with Darshana Avila)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/four-phases-erotic-liberation/) **Published:** October 20, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Rahi Chun and erotic wholeness guide Darshana Avila explore how trauma-informed somatics and consent practices unlock the erotic as a force of healing, empowerment, and activism. They discuss the four phases of erotic liberation—regulation, receiving, allowing & expressing, and liberating Eros—and how each phase opens deeper intimacy and authenticity. This conversation unpacks why receiving is radical, how desire smuggling undermines trust, and why reclaiming our erotic power is essential to both personal fulfillment and collective liberation. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # The Four Phases of Erotic Liberation (with Darshana Avila) # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the stages of erotic liberation and how individuals move through patterns of conditioning, awakening, and expression. You’ll learn how sexuality evolves through these phases. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Image-from-iOS-1-1024x780-2.jpg "Image-from-iOS-1-1024x780-2 | Rahi Chun") Darshana’s site: [DarshanaAvila.com](https://darshanaavila.com/) [Radical Rejuvenation Retreat](https://darshanaavila.com/radical-rejuvenation/) [Instagram/Darshana\_Avila](https://www.instagram.com/darshana_avila/) [Youtube: Darshana Avila](https://www.youtube.com/@darshana-avila) [Linkedin: Darshana Avila](https://www.linkedin.com/in/darshana-avila/) [skool.com/galgasm/about](https://www.skool.com/galgasm/about) About Our Guest: Darshana Avila is a trauma-informed somatic educator, practitioner and international speaker who helps people reconnect with the most essential aspects of themselves — their truth, their desires, and their capacity for authentic connection. Known for her grounded, candid, and relational approach, she bridges the worlds of embodiment, emotional intelligence, and personal agency with depth and accessibility. Darshana’s work has been featured on Netflix’s Sex, Love & goop, The Guardian, The New Yorker, and numerous leading podcasts including the most downloaded episode of Shameless Sex Podcast in 2024, the goop Podcast and this one! They are often referred to as an “Intimacy Bestie” or “Erotic Wholeness Guide” who serves the intersection of “trauma healing” and “erotic embodiment explorations” working with a deep and wide toolbox of practices and knowledge from the fields of Somatic Experiencing, Neuroaffective Touch, Sexological Bodywork and Somatica. ## What You’ll Learn About Erotic Liberation & Sexual Evolution $ Regulation before Eros: How deep erotic work must be built on nervous-system safety and how regulation is non-negotiable. $ Receiving is a skill: How cultural conditioning (especially for AFAB folks) breeds people-pleasing, blocking receptivity and how the Wheel of Consent is a game-changer. $ Consent = Clarity + Voice: How safety requires honest communication and the capacity to pause and stop and how without voice, there’s no true consent. $ Allowing & Expressing unlocks depth: How once the container is solid, guided experiences can open intense sensation and emotion (orgasmic release, grief, catharsis). $ Eros = Life Force: How erotic energy is aliveness—it isn’t limited to sex; it’s the current that moves grief, joy, passion, purpose. $ Desire smuggling vs. directness: How indirect bids for what we want erode trust and how transparent desire builds it—across all orientations, including lesbian couples. $ Language shapes possibility: Let’s ditch limiting frames like “foreplay” and use specific, expansive vocabulary to open the erotic field. $ Personal liberation is activism: How re-embodiment counters systems that rely on disembodiment and how tending Eros fuels civic engagement and values-aligned action. $ Soul-alignment matters: How whether or not it’s your vocation, aligning with your soul’s purpose breeds satisfaction and effectiveness. $ Replenish to sustain: How rest, pleasure, nourishment, nature, and community aren’t luxuries—they resource long-term personal and collective work. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Somatic Consent and touch awareness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [The Wheel of Consent and embodied boundaries](https://rahichun.com/podcast/wheel-of-consent-touch-boundaries/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological bodyworker, and creator of somatic sexual Wholeness. In today's episode with Darshana Avila, we explore how trauma-informed somatics and consent practices can unlock and unleash the erotic life force living in a sa as a force of healing, empowerment, and activism. We discuss her four phases of erotic liberation regulation, receiving, allowing, and expressing and liberating eros, and how each phase opens the erotic into deeper intimacy and authenticity. We unpack why receiving can be radical, how desire smuggling, undermines trust, and why reclaiming our erotic power is essential to both personal fulfillment and collective liberation. Before the interview, a few announcements. The three keys to genital disarming for reclaiming and expanding pleasure will open for early bird registration on November 1st for the next cohort starting on January 14th. This year will be the first time certification with supervision will be offered for graduates of the live in-person genital disarming training happening here in Los Angeles in April. All details will be announced@rahihun.com. And now let's welcome Darshana Rahi: I'm very, very excited today to invite Darshana Avila, um, to the podcast. Um, so a little introduction about Darshana and then, uh, there's so much I want to get into today. So, Darshana holds a sacred space for the intersection of pleasure, power, and purpose. A core aspect of their work, erotic wholeness is understanding that eroticism is so much more than sexuality alone, and I really look forward to digging into that. Um, they're often referred to as an intimacy bestie or erotic wholeness guide. Uh, she serves at the intersection of trauma healing and erotic embodiment explorations, working with a deep and wide toolbox of practices and knowledge from the diverse fields of somatic experiencing neuroaffective, touch sexological body work, and Somatica. Darshana, I thanks so much for being on the podcast today. Darshana: Thank you for having me here and for doing such a great job with the intro. I'm like, I'm excited about me, Rahi: . Well, I, yes, I was very excited. I mean, you know, when I went to your website and just real, I mean, we've known each other for years now, but, um, you know, just in, in kind of updating my knowledge base about how your work has evolved and, and with your offerings, I saw in your bio that you actually, in your adult young adulthood, spent a decade in corporate America with thoughts of becoming a lawyer. And so, you know, as I love, as a jumping off point, I always ask guests like, how in the world did you go from a decade in corporate America thinking about becoming a lawyer? Which I can actually see because you're so well studied, you know, but then that other part of you that is so intuitive and embodied, like what were the critical kind of events in your life that brought you to holding such an exquisite space that you do for sacred sexual embodiment? Darshana: Yeah. Um, very fair questions. I would be curious too, because most people who meet me now, when, if they find out that I had that past chapter, they're like, huh, make that make sense. . What happened there was I actually did my final semester of undergrad living in Chile. Wow. And I had gone to, I had gone to learn Spanish. I had gone to immerse myself in a different culture. That was something that I always was really clear on wanting. Um, and what I didn't know that I was signing up for was living in Chile for two years, um, getting a job straight outta college there, and getting a husband in the process . Darshana: So I lived there, um, in my early twenties, and by the time I came back to the US the thought of putting myself back in academia felt really like, whoa, what do I do with that now that I've had some life experience? And, and I was also falling deeply, deeply in love with yoga at the time. And, and that was my gateway drug, if you will, um, to the path that I walked and the life that I now live. And so I, at the peak of things was like had a six figure corporate career where I would get on planes mm-hmm . And negotiate multimillion dollar deals with my clients, and then I'd be teaching six yoga classes a week. Wow. And I was deeply drawn to the devotional and the philosophical side of yoga. So even though it was a physical practice for me, it, it really became the, one of the first deep spiritual awakenings that I had was, was through the lens of all that I was blessed to, to learn, to study, to immerse in. Darshana: And I mean, there's a lot of chapter in between that and where we are today, which I can talk about, you know, if you wanna know. But that, that was the early origin story. I quit the corporate job. I decided I was gonna hang up my shingle in the coaching world. I did not necessarily set out initially for that to be focused on sex and intimacy, but it became very clear very quickly that that was where my passion lied. Where my service is really deepest and greatest and what life wants from me. And I really do believe that, you know, it's, I am someone who who does feel that we each have a soul's purpose. Not everyone is meant to have their soul's purpose actualized through their profession. Right. So there are many, many different ways that we might live in accordance with whatever it is we're uniquely here to do. And for me, it just happened that it did dovetail with my professional path. So here we are. Rahi: Yeah. Well, you know, it's really interesting darsana, because I, I, I find it unique and, and also appreciate practitioners that have this equal balance of, of, um, trauma training and training in, in, in the erotic. And you certainly have, you know, um, you know, kind of a, a multiple array of exposure to both somatic experiencing is such an in-depth somatic trauma training. Neuroaffective touch really focuses on, you know, what childhood infant deficits, you know, show up in the body as, as guarding an armor Somatica is, is really about relational intimacy, uh, also somatic based and then sexological body work. You know, I'd, I'd love to know, in, in your work, I, I'm guessing by this time it's be, it's like all interwoven in how you hold space, but I'm wondering if you could give us some examples, because our audience may not be as familiar with some of these, you know, neuro Affective touch or Somatica. Are there certain instances when you're working with clients where you find that you're l leaning more, uh, on your neuroaffective touch training or more on the somatic training, the somatic experiencing as opposed to the sexological bodywork? Darshana: Yeah, I mean, it, you're correct in that these are all very much blended and fused together more often than not in how I hold space and guide. And the two things that I could add in, in, like, answer to your question, I, I guide clients through a progression always, if, if you're going to work with me, it's because you're really invested in yourself in, in a profound transformational journey. And so the phases of that journey begin with things that are more nervous system regulation focused. And, and so that right there definitely has a foundation of somatic experiencing and neuro effecti touch in that we're exploring in ways that, that are designed to help you feel a felt sense of safety, receptivity, openness. And for me, there's no way that I could responsibly and thoroughly take someone into the depths of their eroticism without that as the foundation. Darshana: So it's to say that often we begin more on what technically speaking is the trauma end of the spectrum, whether or not someone identifies as having over trauma, I'm simply pulling in tools that I have from that facet of my professional lens to create the container, to create the foundation. And then depending upon the particulars of what somebody is coming in with, whether I'm working with an individual, working with a couple, we might continue into more overt trauma-informed exercises and practices all throughout, even as we're bringing in things that are more sexuality focused, that that, that are more arousal focused, that are more about partnered intimacy, if it's in that realm. Um, so, so yeah, there, there can be moments where I'm absolutely centering more of one modality or more of one lens. And very often it's that, that that kind of flowing between and always holding it in a trauma informed and culturally sensitive way, whatever we're up to. Mm-hmm Rahi: . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. I noticed the four phases that you guide your clients through in your intensives. Um, phase one regulation and relationship phase two, open to receiving phase three, allowing and expressing in order to get to liberating Eros stage four. So it's really intentionally layered. And from what I can see really, um, you know, with such conscientiousness, it's like they really do build on each other, you know, and those of us in the field know that without the nervous system really feeling safe, uh, you know, the, those other building blocks really, um, have nothing to stand on. Can you help? Right. Yes. Can you help our audience , um, when with phase two and phase three open to receiving? Yeah. Can you speak to the role that clients pass conditioning ha plays in, in one's receptivity and openness to, to pleasure and arousal? Darshana: Absolutely. Yeah. So, given that the vast majority of my clients are cis women, or they are people who are assigned female at birth, but maybe don't identify as a woman presently mm-hmm . The, the cultural conditioning is a default of people pleasing. And so that is rooted in over giving, it's rooted in, you know, really suppressing and subsuming your own boundary preference, desire, need in any given moment so that you are taking care of other. Mm-hmm. And when it comes to the, like, to explorations of eroticism, and in particular when it comes to partnered sexual intimacy, many of us actually are not very good at receiving because we're oriented to taking care of the other person and or being an object of the other person's pleasure, regardless of whether or not we actually are having a pleasurable time ourselves. Mm-hmm . So a very foundational piece, and that's why this is like the second phase of the journey that I guide folks through is rooted and, and all credit to Betty Martin and, um, who's the founder of the Wheel of Consent, a body of work that I lean very, very heavily into. Darshana: And honestly, I feel like if every elementary school student mm-hmm . Was getting an education in the wheel of consent, we would be living in a much more beautiful world. It's, it's not complicated, but it is, it is so integral to how we really understand the dynamics of any kind of exchange of touch, of intimacy and beyond touch between two or more people. And so I, I spend time, um, helping people to really understand what it is to be a good receiver mm-hmm . How, how it's essential. Because if, if, you know, like most of us, actually, and I'm, I, when I say most of us, I'm now speaking in a very general and generic way, regardless of gender. I think most of us, deep inside, when we care about another person and we care about the experience we're having, we want to give well mm-hmm . Right. Darshana: However, it, that is only gonna ever go so far if the other person isn't capable of receiving. Right. So, so , so it, it, it, it's like trying, you know, it's, it is trying to pour into something that's blocked and it's just gonna splash back at you. It it can't actually make its way in. Right. So many of my clients are really high functioning. They're, they're super capable. They've had a lot of success in other aspects of their lives. They've done deep self-exploration and personal growth work, and yet when it comes to their intimate lives, they don't know how to allow, they don't know how to receive. And those terms are similar and not identical. I, I, I won't go into an in-depth analysis of the wheel of consent, but it's to say that many of us have that block, many of us have the stopper in our bottle, as it were mm-hmm . Darshana: And so this is about helping people to be able to take that, that stopper out intentionally, consensually, and from an empowered place, knowing that it's not going to just render them defenseless, choiceless at the whim of some other person. Rather, that it's possible to do this in a way where you're really creating very, like, thoughtful and mutually satisfying exchanges with people. So if what you want is to ultimately get really expansive in your erotic expression, your orgasmic capacity, like whatever it might be, that that is, is kind of like your upper end of why you would seek to work with me or somebody like you. I imagine it's very similar. Um, you know, we can't go there if you don't have receptivity as part of your foundation mm-hmm . And you can't have receptivity without relaxation and a relaxed nervous system, or a regulated nervous system, which is why this progression is, is organized as such. Darshana: And for some people it's swift. It doesn't actually take all that much time to move through these first few phases. And for other people, like I have clients who I worked with over years because there was significant trauma in their history, and the work of regulation and receptivity was not a quick process because that really is the deep healing that was needed. Yet what I've witnessed in those instances is when we really do service to that, what can open up on the other side is like beyond their wildest dreams. And, and it's, it's just like, it's the most gratifying experience as a practitioner, um, to watch someone discover themselves in a way that they really didn't believe they could. Mm-hmm . Rahi: Yeah. It's pretty magical in the unpredictability of every soul and every kind of like, embodied life force and how it finds itself, you know, I mean, what you're speaking to, uh, you know, reflects how some people, when their nervous system just starts to feel safe, like kind of the other pieces fall in the sh in into place as opposed to other people where they might come already regulated and they really need to learn how to self attune or ask for what they want, or, you know, allow themselves to surrender to the pleasure. It's, it's such a, um, just unique journey for everyone. It's, it's amazing. Mm-hmm . Um, yeah, Darshana, I, I really appreciate what you underscored about working with, um, uh, bodies that were assigned at female at birth and the conditioning, you know, the really severe conditioning that I don't feel like is really talked about that much. You know, even within nervous system, uh, regulation modalities, people talk about, you know, fight, flight, freeze, but not fawn so much. And it is, it's kind of an epidemic. I feel like how, you know, certain communities are, you know, uh, and, and women or, you know, bodies assigned at birth as female are rewarded, expected, and really e even examples of fawning left and right. When you're kind of attuned to it, you see it everywhere. Darshana: And it's tricky because in a , I mean, it's tricky on somebody else. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, when we're talking about the, the heteronormative dominant cultural conditioning mm-hmm. Like, you know, it's, and, and also let's, let's, let me use the example of speaking about for straight women mm-hmm. Women. So women who, who want to be or are in partnership with men and perhaps really want their male partners dominance or, or directionality, assertiveness. Like, so, so there, there's this interesting thing where like, is it okay to want another person to lead? Sure. But, but is it also okay, like, how do I do that from a place of my own power and preferences being woven into that and it actually being a consent based negotiation as opposed to just going along with someone else's agenda. Right. And many of us have spent years upon, years upon years of our lived experience doing the latter. Darshana: We've gone along, we've allowed our male partners to be the ones who supposedly know more about our bodies mm-hmm . Or are the ones who are responsible for making the bids for connection. So, so it's not to vilify men in this equation. Like there's actually a lot of pressure placed on y'all, like to, you know, if we're talking about like a very heteronormative dynamic here where the guy should ask you out on the date, and, and the guy should, should facilitate the foreplay and dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, well, what I, what I know working with many straight couples, I, I don't tend to work with men individually all that often these days. Mm-hmm . But, but I do work with, with, you know, male female couples, men, women, couples, and a lot of times the men feel like damned if they do, damned if they don't because they're in a seat where the expectation is that they initiate, but they partners not actually giving them insight and information into how they would like this to happen. Darshana: Because she's spent much of her time, and I'm gonna go back to what you just said about in, in a threat response state of appeasement mm-hmm . And the most common thing that I would say clients come to me with is the, like, the, the, if, if we're gonna talk about it as the quote unquote problem they're looking to solve is, I don't know what I like, nevermind how to ask for it. Right. And, you know, appeasing, fawning, that that's, those words have a little bit more of a negative connotation. I want to, for the sake of having a real balanced moment of this dialogue here, I also wanna include that there is a, a more benevolent spin on that, which is tend and befriend mm-hmm . You know, so, so, so it's not always a bad thing when we, when we seek to kind of collude with another person or, or to, to create cohesion and coherence with another person. Darshana: Like, these are not terrible things. It's not, none of this is to say that you should never just go along with what your partner wants. Mm-hmm . But it should be a choice. Mm-hmm . Not a default. Mm-hmm . And, and it, it is, but it, it's everyone involved, you know? So if we're talking about a dyad, each person has a responsibility for knowing themselves, having the capacity to accurately and, and, and authentically represent, this is what I'm available for, this is what I like, this is what I don't, and then negotiations can happen. Yeah. And many of the people that I'm supporting, which is representative of, I'm sure many of you listening, and many of us just kind of move about life. Like, we don't really know and we don't feel confident to say, touch me like this, slow this down. Actually, what I would like to do is make out not have penetrative intercourse, like, you know, to be specific, uh, you know, in, in giving guidance to our partner, which I don't know, I, I imagine rahi you'll, you'll know this as a, as a practitioner, it, it's like nothing pleases me more than when a client tells me what, what feels good to them. Darshana: Because then I'm not guessing when it comes to my lovers, nothing pleases me more than having a, a a partner who, who is really able to say, that doesn't feel good to me. Because then I trust that when they are showing signs of pleasure, I'm like, okay, we're hitting the mark here. It's so relaxing mm-hmm . To know that we can really take someone's Yes, no, I like it. I don't like it at face value and explore together. From there, it opens up just so much more spaciousness and creativity and, and deliciousness in the relating Rahi: . Yeah. And I imagine, so the phase three, so after regulation relationship, there's the open to receiving and the phase three of allowing and expressing, I'm imagining darsana that, that a lot of that is really cultivated, those muscles are developed in that phase. Because, you know, to your point, like, you know, a lot of my clients wanna be dominated and devoured and, you know, taken, you know, but then they don't know how to communicate how exactly. And if it's kind of going off the tracks, they don't know how to engage in a safe word or a safe gesture, or, you know, slow down and, and, and then it's like, okay, I was devoured, but that wasn't kind of what I imagined it would be. Darshana: Yep. And, and I, I'll speak from my experience on the receiving end, right. Like on the allowing end as much as someone who facilitates. So, you know, I have been exploring in the world of kink for many, many years. Mm-hmm. And so when we talk about like, dominance and devouring and things like that, like I, I have spent a lot of time on , what we call the right side of the slash in a more submissive role in my personal and even in professional context. Like, I have worked with practitioners to explore this for myself. And the only way that it works is with clear consent. Mm-hmm . The only way that whoever I'm playing with, whoever I'm exploring with can really take me where I wanna go, right? Is when I myself have given them enough insight into it. Now, this doesn't mean that we have to always be able to say with exact precision, what I would like you to do is A, then B, then C and d and have it like perfectly choreographed. Darshana: It's more that we are trustworthy to our partners when it comes to representing ourselves as best we know ourselves. When we are confident in using our voice, when we're not going to just go ahead and put on, you know, the mask of, of like, okay, this is good enough, so I'll just be quiet. Um, you, you can't have true safety without the trust to communicate honestly. And so, so much of this, you know, that third phase of the journey, what, what shifts in how I'm working with my clients is in, in phase two receiving puts my client in the driver's seat as it were, which is to say that they're responsible for telling me what they want before I give it to them. So in a wheel of consent model that's more serving and accepting, I am of service to them, and they are accepting my service, and I've given them a lot of guidance and information so that they have vocabulary and, and they have a container and a practice to be able to convey to me the things that they would like to try and emphasis on the word try, because it's always all an experiment. Darshana: Sure. You like something, do more of it. You don't shift it up, you know, maybe it's a hard boundary forever, maybe it's a, hmm, maybe just a little modification right now. And this would be great. You know, there's a lot of range of possibility when we go into the third phase. I take the driver seat, which is to say that I then facilitate experiences using the expertise and the technique and the energy that I embody and that I get to bring to the table. But I'm doing it in base of everything I've learned about my client's preferences and boundaries already. So I trust them. I also trust in their capacity to say, pause if they need it to pause, to say stop if they need it to stop. We've discussed what these words mean. We've, we've really set the container with a lot of clarity. Darshana: They feel at ease. I feel at ease. And what ends up happening is that many of my clients find a depth of sensation and emotion and intensity that they had no idea they were capable of experiencing. It is a very common occurrence on my table for a client to have a huge orgasm and then burst into tears that are just like welling up from the depths of all the undifferentiated grief and suppressed emotion that they've carried, because they've never actually felt safe enough to have it flow on with, without, you know, without containing. And, and that is only possible because of all the work that we've done to build up that safety and to create trust between us. And it's a very liberating experience. You know, someone listening, if, if you're, if you hear that and you're like, oh God, I don't want that. Like, it's, it's, it's seldom as, as heavy and negative as, as you might imagine it, it's usually very cathartic. Darshana: And, and it's, it's a weight lifted because this is something that has been held in the body for such a long time. Um, even while you might be going through the motions of sexual encounters and intimate experiences of many different sorts, never really feeling like it was like the conditions were aligned to be able to go to that depth. And, and then all of a sudden the possibility is laid out before you. And it really is revolutionary, um, to, to be able to experience that facet of your own aliveness. And, and I'm emphasizing aliveness here as a, a word that I use synonymously with, with aero and eroticism, because it is my belief that our erotic energy is life force energy. And so whether we're in the heights of ecstasy or the depths of agony, it's erotic. It, it, it, it moves us, it animates us. It's passionate, it's dynamic. Uh, you know, so it, it could be grief, it could be joy, it's arrows . Rahi: Well, it's the very thing that allows for deliberation of arrows to occur. I mean, what you're describing to me sounds, you know, just that cathartic release of grief and emotion that's been stagnant, you know, in the channel sounds really euphoric and liberating, and it allows for that life force to meet itself. So, you know, I, I see each of the, the phases that, that you use to hold space to be really, really intelligently, um, sequenced and necessary for the next level to actually occur. So once again, for the listeners regulation and relationship, really letting, bringing safety and trust to the nervous system open to receiving, right? Because as we shared, there's so much past conditioning in our society about what is allowed, what is permissible, what is, you know, what what leads to shame or punishment. The third phase allowing and expressing, which is so key because we, we want the eros that we liberate to be exactly what our deepest desires tied and led by our deepest desires. So it's, it's so really, really wonderful. I, I wanna ask you something Darna, and I'm curious because in, in regards to the, the conditioning that we see, uh, hetero couples, tell me, I'm really, I'd love to know, when you work with couples, lesbian couples, like how do you see that conditioning, uh, around, uh, uh, plea and a piece play out when there are two that, you know, are kind of subjected to similar, you know, messages? Darshana: Yeah. . Yeah. It's a fair question. And I do work with quite a number of lesbian couples mm-hmm . And, you know, both, both members of the partnership are female. And so what, what often, you know, the, the kind of stereotypical, but just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's not true. Um, the dynamic is, is like a, a hesitancy when it comes to initiating or to asserting clearly what I want. Um, there could be a lot of, like, I'm gonna borrow a term from, um, a dear friend, also somewhat of a colleague of mine, um, Marsha Bachinski, who teaches the will of consent among other things. Cool. Um, she's, she's one of Betty's right hand people. Um, but Marsha has this term desire smuggling, which is to say that, that like, if we know what it is that we want, we kind of package it up inside of something that we think our partner might be more receptive to instead of just coming out and saying what we want. Darshana: And I see a lot of that go on in lesbian couples because it's like, okay, well maybe I'll take, you know, if I give you what you want, maybe I'll be able to squeeze my thing in on the end, right? And it's like, it's really, it. It's, I mean, and, and, and let's have a moment to be compassionate for the, and whether, whatever your sexual orientation is, dear listener, it's like, let's be compassionate for the fact that, again, what this is showing us is that most of us really do wanna take care of our partners. We wanna be a good, a good giver, a good lover, a good everything. But we don't realize how, when we're not being transparent and direct, we're actually undermining the trust and the safety that we seek mm-hmm . To create. So what I do very often in my work with, with lesbian couples, has a lot about it is really, and it's not different from if I work individually with women, what do you actually want? Darshana: Becomes like the principle question. How do we create like a nice running list, if you will, of some reliable preferences mm-hmm . Some desires that you're, you're, you're actually feeling comfortable enough to explore, like, let's actually bank some information, right. About what you truly want so that you can then negotiate together and create opportunities where it may be a little bit of a compromise some of the time, right? It doesn't mean everybody's always getting things exactly their way, but that you can come together and co-create in ways that truly can feel mutually satisfying, and where the burden of initiating is not falling to just one partner, nor is the gatekeeping being held by one partner because those things happen. They, they coincide a lot. You know, one partner is making a bid for connection. Hey babe, like, how about we, we have some sexy time tonight. The other partner's like, oh, you know what? I'm really too tired. It's been a really busy day. And they're constantly like in this like pursuer and pushback, pursue and pushback dynamic. And so it's to help people like really recognize when that's going on and, and give them solid tools and guidance to come out of those default patterns and default roles, and really be more collaborative, more creative, and more trustworthy, um, in their explorations. Rahi: That's really great. It, I love that you're creating this base of knowledge of what, what are the desires, identifying the patterns and, uh, uh, solutions to creating new patterns. Darshana: And a lot of it is down to simply giving people vocabulary examples and permission. Sex. Sex is a word. Like I, I, I hate the word foreplay. . I, I wish it didn't exist, but I understand why it does, because of what you're speaking to. Like we, whatever our sexual orientation is, we hear the word sex, and most of us are defaulting to penis and vagina intercourse as, as our definition of that, because that is what we have been acculturated to. And so that is taking something that can be so wildly and vastly expansive and creative and narrowing it down to one specific act. It's, it is doing such a disservice to us when we speak in those kind of ways, you know? But if you talked about sex or lovemaking with a lot more specificity, actually got into some degree of detail about the particular acts that you're interested in, the roles that you wanna play, the ways that you wanna feel, the things that you have learned about your erotic expression that you would like to include, then it, again, it's like we, we take ourselves from, from this very narrow and immature way of relating into a wildly expansive and mature realm of possibility where, I mean, it, it, it's, it's endless, truly, it's infinite the ways that you can be creative in your expression then. Darshana: So absolutely. That's what I hope, that's what I am devoted to guiding people toward. And, and I wanna say that it's not only because being creative about your sex is fun, you then are getting to know and claim more of yourself, who you are, what motivates you, what turns you on, what your superpowers are, and, and that's applicable in so many other aspects of life and different forms of relationship. So yes, we've spent a lot of time here speaking about what goes on in a sexual context, but this is never just limited to what's happening in the bedroom. You know, it, it has applications for every aspect of your life. And, and that's, for me, that's my big reason why I love doing this work, you know, is because this is about whole person transformation. Rahi: Yeah. It's really fascinating how, I mean, I love that you use the word life force, because it really is life force. And you know, the work that we do, um, is around how the life force is expressed through sexual energy, but it really is our life force. And when the life force is liberated, you see the effects of it in the workplace and people's personal lives and, and all just how they walk, how they express themselves, how they exude. So I wanna ask you Darsana, because I know this is, uh, a really, uh, uh, core belief of yours, how liberating eroticism is a form of activism, and how with all of the, um, turmoil happening in our world and, and, and certainly in this country right now, how reclaiming or claiming or really devoting, you know, I, I love that it was a devotion to yoga that like really kind of put you on this path. How devotion to our eroticism is, is a form of activism. Darshana: Yeah. Thanks for asking, because yes, that is something I am deeply passionate about. You know, it's my firm belief that our personal liberation is a service to our collective liberation. And what I mean then is when we do the work of decolonizing deconditioning, unlocking ourselves mm-hmm . Our life force energy, our true desires, preferences, boundaries, so on and so forth, we then have access to an intrinsic source of power. That is, I mean, and if we, if we kind of like take this backwards and, and consider the systems of oppression that we all exist in sight of, if we look at patriarchy and misogyny in particular, that that has very, very effectively sought to suppress feminine embodiment and feminine wisdom. And, and, and women in particular for, you know, ages upon ages upon ages and what's gone on there. Um, it fundamentally is a culture of disembodiment, right? Darshana: So, so the, the methods of capitalism, the methods of patriarchy have very much been disconnect people from their bodies, and they become that much more pliable to serve the purposes of the powers that be. So when what we're talking about is fundamentally creating a culture of embodiment, and we're, we're speaking about aeros in the broader sense as life force. It is about inhabiting your body, being connected to that vital energy, that creative energy, that energy that fuels passion, not only in a romantic or sexual sense, but in terms of your vocation, your calling, the causes that you support, the way that you show up in the face of injustice. Like we need access to that energy within us in order to be responsive to the trials of our time. Because everything we've spoken about really is how do you be present in your body? How do you stay connected to your truth? Darshana: How do you tether yourself to your sense of personal power to be able to speak out what you want, what you don't, what you agree with, what you don't. Those things are just as relevant when we're talking about you in a precious moment with your beloved as they are when you are on the protest line or at the voting booth or whatever it might be. And so, one of the beautiful things is that when we cultivate practices and have the skills and the resources to really stay in good, healthy, balanced connection with our life force energy to be in our bodies, to tend our nervous systems, well, to have clarity about our limits and boundaries, to know I can give this much and now I need to step back and replenish so I return again. Like these are skills that, that are bound up in all of these sexual explorations that we've spoken about that translate to how we show up in, in our civic engagement, in our professional realm and whatever it might be. Darshana: And us in response and being response able is we're at choice. We're thoughtful, we're intentional about what it is that I wanna do in the bedroom tonight with my sweetie w whether or not I'm gonna go to this protest, where I'm gonna put my dollars, what, what business entity I might be considering boycotting to align with my values. Like whatever your forms of activism may be. So these things really are deeply, deeply intertwined with one another. And the more we can have conversations that center that, um, the, the more people can, can really see that taking great care of yourself is, is not actually like a frivolous luxury. It's, it's an integral part of how we tend community and create culture and the more beautiful world that we know is possible. Rahi: I feel like what you, what you shared in response, you know, really does exactly mirror the four phases. It's like the greater agency we have with our life force as individual beings. Um, it translates in, in via intimacy through being regulated, being open to receiving pleasure, speaking what our truth is, and, and letting that life force thrive. And those same kind of freedom to response, the ability to response in a, in a, in a response able way applies in the macrocosm as well. I think the correlations are really, really clear. Darsana, you have a, um, you have a retreat, an in-person retreat coming up in December, which looks really, really exciting. I wanted to ask you, you know, in envisioning holding space for this residential retreat, what was the inspiration for it and what are the core elements that you really wanted in designing this retreat for your clients to experience? Darshana: Yeah. Well, this was born out of, if a moment of this is what I would want somebody to offer me, so I'm gonna create it, um, which is it, it is a chance to fill our cups up for those of us who have the privilege and, and the abundance of access to something that might feel a little more luxurious and pampering oriented. And also wanna make sure that we're really staying on purpose. It's striking the balance of the things that we just spoke of. So this is a, this is, I, I facilitate private retreats all the time for my clients, and this is the first time that I'm actually offering a multi-day group retreat. It's not a sexually focused experience, but it is very much about eroticism as life force. Um, the retreat is called radical rejuvenation Radical because if we're drawing, particularly, I stand on the shoulders of many black intersectional feminists in particular, in how my ideologies and understandings of, of all of these things we've discussed have been shaped and formed. Darshana: And so, you know, you've got people like everyone from Audre Lorde to Adrian Marie Brown, like espousing the incredible necessity and value of rest, of pleasure of, of really staying plugged in to those things. Not because they are like a, a, a frivolous, optional thing, but because that is what fuels us to stay in the good fight. So this retreat is really a beautiful opportunity to get a very significant dose of being fed. Um, one of the things that I'm most excited about, I I, my love of food is vast. My love of good food is vast. And so I am, I am being partnered with by a chef who I know personally, um, who whose, whose business is the Liberation Supper Club. And she is going to be preparing like exquisite farm to table organic meals for us. We're gonna be immersed in beautiful nature and it's both a chance to really slow down and replenish, but also to be in thoughtful, in embodied exploration and conversation with like-minded beings about how are we cultivating the internal resources, the personal practices, the relationship skills and intelligence and the clarity about where we wanna channel all of, of our aliveness, um, in ways that are socially responsible and value aligned and, and really not just value aligned. Darshana: I would say back to something I mentioned earlier, soul aligned. 'cause each of us, it, it is my belief like our soul is here for something in particular. And the more connected we can be to that, regardless of if it shows up as your vocation or not, the more satisfied we get to feel the more effective we are going to be, um, because there's resonance. So this is a weekend retreat, three days, two nights happening in beautiful Mill Valley, California, which is the San Francisco Bay area. We're about eight minutes from the ocean and eight minutes from the Redwood Forest at the gorgeous home. We're, we're occupying. I am. Mm-hmm . Thrilled for this and really excited to see who is leaning in. So thanks for giving me a chance to share about it and anybody who's interested and reach out and I'd be happy to discuss it more. Rahi: Yeah, it looked really, um, enticing and inviting and rejuvenation. Like it looked really, really rejuvenating. 'cause you're out in nature. You're, I mean, it seems like it's very, like, it's designed to rejuvenate all of the intuitive and instinctive like responses of the body, you know, with amazing food Yeah. Somatic practices. You're out in nature. Um, darna how can people find you and learn more about your offerings? Darshana: Yeah, so my website is a wonderful place to go. Darna avila.com. Um, you can find me at darna daron avila on Instagram. I do have a YouTube channel that I'll be totally transparent in saying I go through phases with how much new content is there, but YouTube does have a lot of content if you're interested in more of like a learning environment. Um, and I have a free online community space for, for women and afab folks called gsm. And that too has a ton of free resources for you to be able to move through self-paced content to support your own journey, as well as to cultivate more of a sense of community. I'm in there so you get direct and interaction with me. Um, yeah. And so it's options. You know, my, my private practice is absolutely the way to get the, the deep diving transformation guided by yours truly. And then there are other ways where depending upon where you are and the arc of your journey that you can lean in. So everyone's welcome and I would let me know that you heard me on Raj's podcast. I love knowing where people have found me from and we can connect Rahi: wonderful, wonderful, um, Darna, I really, uh, admire and so respect the, the depth of, uh, trauma-informed somatic training that you, that you interweave with the erotic and uh, and the activism. I think they all like really, um, you know, are seamless. And I think the way you you present the work and the wisdom and hold space for it is, is fantastic. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Darshana: Thank you. And I appreciate that. I take it as a high compliment given your experience and the work that you do. So thanks so much for the chance to share about it together. You're Rahi: So welcome. Rahi: How is this episode landing in your body right now? Can you feel in your body how deep erotic expansion is directly correlated to the safety felt in your nervous system? Can you feel any of your life force energy feeling trapped or confined within your body that's asking for liberation? And if so, how might you bring regulation, receiving, allowing and expressing to your body intimately for the collective liberation of us? All links to Darshan as world can be found in the show notes. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Erotic Awakening & Energy, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Darshana Avila, Feminine Embodiment, Inspiration, Pleasure Practices, Rahi Chun podcast, Sacred Sexuality, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure --- ### [Erotic Empowerment: Somatic Intimacy & Embodied Power](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-empowerment-somatic-intimacy/) **Published:** February 13, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Court Vox explores erotic empowerment, somatic intimacy, and the deep healing potential of sexual exploration. He emphasizes brave spaces over safe spaces in helping unlock erotic blueprints and life force energy and highlights how small acts of intimacy can be transformative, while alchemizing shame and embracing sensuality lead to profound personal growth. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Erotic Empowerment: Somatic Intimacy & Embodied Power # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore erotic empowerment and how the body becomes a source of power and expression with Court Vox. You’ll learn how embodiment supports confidence, connection, and authenticity. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CourtVox.webp "CourtVox | Rahi Chun") [The Body Vox](https://thebodyvox.com/) [Court Vox on IG](https://www.instagram.com/courtvox/) [Back to the Body Retreats](https://backtothebody.org/) About Our Guest: Court Vox is a Certified Sex & Intimacy Coach and Sacred Intimate based in Los Angeles, California. He is Founder of The Bodyvox, which offers 1:1 coaching, workshops, retreats, and an online community to support a group of global erotic explorers. Court has become known for offering private, highly customized, exclusive experiences and travels extensively hosting and teaching workshops for all bodies, genders, and orientations. He is also part of an elite team of sex educators that create the celebrated program for women, Back to the Body, which runs retreats all across the globe. Court helps clients explore all types of intimacy through a somatic lens, practicing sharing through body-based exercises and experiences that involve breath, movement, sound, touch, and choice – exercises have been designed to tap into your somatic knowing, the wisdom of your own body, and connect you to your rational thinking brain and your spirit. ## What You’ll Learn About Erotic Empowerment & Embodied Power $ How creating brave spaces, given the edgy and transformative nature of exploring wounds, triggers, and unexpected pleasures in the journey of sexual reclamation is different than “safe spaces.” $ How extracting core erotic themes (power, surrender, adoration, fear, etc.) and co-creating a new erotic narrative with clients can lead to deep healing when the elements of choice, agency, and safety are primary. $ How erotic trance states are similar to the flow state of performing music on stage – in the zone. $ How the art of space-holding for groups involves meeting the needs of every participant, especially the ones struggling the most, as this sets the tone of acceptance for all aspects for all participants. $ How extracting core erotic themes (power, surrender, adoration, fear, etc.) and co-creating a new erotic narrative with clients can lead to deep healing when the elements of choice, agency, and safety are primary. $ How the BodyVox Online Community provides a safe, censorship-free space for erotic explorers worldwide encouraging the continuous self-sensual growth and connection beyond one-time workshops. $ How Court’s multi-day, tailor-designed, immersive retreats accelerates personal breakthroughs, similar to the “lightning path” in tantra, leading to life transformations beyond sexuality. $ How permission, celebration, and affirmation of erotic identities have ripple effects – with each encounter nourishing the soil of human connection. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite the wonderful court Vox to the podcast Court emphasizes brave spaces over safe spaces in supporting individuals and groups to unlock their erotic potential and life force energy. A wonderful distinction. We explore the processes for erotic empowerment, somatic intimacy, and the deep healing potential of containers for sexual exploration. I really love how court highlights how small acts of intimacy can be life transformative and how alchemizing shame and embracing previously denied sensuality can lead to profound and tremendous personal growth. Am very excited to invite court v to the podcast today. Court is someone who's local here in la. He's someone I've heard about, I've known about for years. We finally met at a workshop around breast health recently, and then we had breakfast and it was like, it was so fun because we were like. Each other's thoughts and sentences. So I'm really thrilled to have him. On the podcast Court is a certified sex and intimacy coach and sacred, intimate based here in Los Angeles. He also works as a sexual surrogate. He is the founder of Body Box, which is a very dynamic offering. It offers very tailored, designed one-on-one multi-day coaching. Body box also offers workshops, retreats in really exquisite locations all over the world. And he holds space for an online community to support global erotic explorers. I wanted to say that court helps clients explore all types of intimacy through a somatic lens, practicing sharing through body-based exercises and experiences that involve breath, movement, sound, touch, and choice exercises that have been designed to tap into your somatic, knowing the wisdom of your own body, and connect you to your rational thinking brain as well as your spirit. K. Thanks so much for being on the podcast today. That was such a great introduction. Thank you so much. I, the feeling is mutual. I think I told you when we were together that I have had this feeling of you, of just feeling you're such a superstar that I felt a little nervous to approach you, and when I met you, I was like. This is the sweetest man ever. And so I just feel so grateful to know you in this way and grateful for your generosity and meeting up. And I just, I feel the same way. It felt like short shorthand, just like showing up with an old friend. Yeah. Yeah. It's been so fun and so fascinating. So yeah. Just getting to know you and getting to know your history and your offerings. By the way, part of that involves court being a front man for a rock band. Like you, oh my God, you did your research. Yes. You did your research. Yeah. It was dynamic. So fun. Wow. So court. I thought a good jumping off point would be, it's really dynamic. These really highly tailored, designed one-on-one retreats that you create and hold space for your clients these multi-day. Retreats that, that are designed for erotic empowerment and somatic agency. Can you give us an idea of what clients experience over several days? Because I'm sure there's a really wide range depending on what their history is. And then if you can give us a sense of what were the pivotal experiences in your sexual awakening or empowerment that led you to understanding like how these spaces need to be held? Yeah. Ooh, those are big questions. First of all the immersions are really tailored to each person individually, but I think being an immersed in, in a space over a period of time when you're out of your home, you're out of your day-to-day element. It does allow you to sink into a curriculum in a different way than if you're doing it over I'm coming for an hour, once a month for 12 months kind of thing. Yeah. It's taking the lightning path in Tantra. Yeah. It's like you're like, we're really going in. I do think it offers people an opportunity to really explore their voice and their erotic blueprints and signatures of really understanding like who they are as an erotic person what their desires are, being able to ask for them. Starting to really understand like what's available in the erotic realms. So many people just don't know what they don't know. And so when there's like this buffet of possibility there then becomes the question of what's keeping you from trying, what's keeping you from eating, right? And so you might not be ready to try everything, but what you do try, you get, get a chance to go. I like that. I don't like that. I want more of that. I'm open to trying that again. And I do think it's a really a huge bulk of learning for people. I don't think it's the end. I think it's like a huge start. It's having a big gust of wind at your back when you're starting your raise Yeah. Of this is, there's a big journey ahead and you're getting a head start kind of thing. I have a lot of clients that do the three day immersions or some come for five days and then it'll be a year until I see them again. And they'll come to a workshop, they'll come to a retreat, they'll do a half day or a full day, like a, I need a just a little pick me up or a reminder. But the, I do find that it is such a a rich experience that people are able to take it into their lives and, do what they want and take it into different avenues of their erotic expression. When I say erotic expression, I don't just mean sexuality. I've had clients. Shift careers. I've had clients shift relationships. I've had clients become painters and writers and artists and not always for professional reasons, but for just the feeling of aliveness become dancers and take up acting. And it was that was, I can't take full credit for that. It was like already something that was in their body and this was I'm just gonna just. Gently push you over the edge of yeah, these are things that you're never gonna get to do again. When if not now, when is the time? Wow. And I, yeah, that's an important question I think to ask everybody is if you were to die tomorrow, yeah. Did you get to do all the things you wanted to do? Did you live a really full life? So if not now, when? What you're sharing right now, the, I'll let all these wonderful examples are an indication of how our, like turning on the erotic energy in someone's body is really like unleashing their life force for creativity and aliveness. Yeah. And I think what I've come to understand is that. Sometimes, like just being in space with myself or somebody like you, it is a little bit of a fire starter because there is an imprint of what it's feels like and what it looks like and how it walks and how it talks. And the idea of embodied leadership is really a concept that I've stuck to, which is, it's not so much what I'm teaching, but how I'm teaching it. There's a lot of teachers out there that are really great and I think, when people arrive at my door and they arrive at your door or anybody else's, there's a resonance in the person, the teacher themselves. And the curriculum. The curriculum is the curriculum. And how it is disseminated, how it is embodied in myself and how that translates into the experiences that I have with other people is actually the gold. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really beautiful point. It's the resonance and yeah, so many things that you're speaking to are really important, I think for listeners to take note of. You started off by saying, rather than just meeting with someone an hour, a week at a time, this is really. Full immersion where because it takes a certain amount of time for kind of the mind to let go of its kind of neural pattern, it's use, it's familiar neural patterns and move into a space of expansion and newness. And this, this immersion of three days or five days, especially when you're working with erotic energy and moving. Kind of opening doors that have wanted to be open, but haven't been, haven't given, been given the permission or the know-how of how to open them and feel that embodied energy. That's, I think that's when real change can happen. Yeah. And I think, when we talk about the erotic, I think people think to think about these really big, sexual experiences, but I can name times when I've had experiences with clients where I'm just holding their hand and because of the context of everything we've done and maybe like a a narrative they've had around intimacy and being seen in public, with that. Just the hand is such a profound like experience and I know that sounds so silly, but I've had many moments where I'm just like, there's been a contact of a pinky and I think to myself, wow, this person is actually trusting me now. And it's just a slight, like they've come to me and put their hand on my pinky. For contact, for connection or walking to get coffee and holding a client's hand because that was never allowed or it was never permissioned, especially being gay and walking in specific cities and cultures in the world where that's not allowed or permissioned. And then coming to a space of I actually feel grief in my body that it's taken me so long to have this and that is intimacy and eroticism. That has nothing to do with penetration or Right. And we take those moments, those small moments for granted sometimes. And so I just wanna name that it's not always this huge experience. That quote is quote unquote, like as Audra Lorde would call it, the pornographic. It's sometimes it's these like minute moments that no one would ever be able to see, but they're so felt deeply in the body. Yeah. Yeah, that's really beautiful and profound. To consider a longing to hold someone's hand in public that has been buried or shamed or denied, for decades. And having the opportunity to realize that in a really celebrated way. I feel emotion coming up in me just Yeah. Recognizing the profoundness of that freedom. I had a I met up with a lover that I had in my twenties recently, and we hadn't really sat down in a long time. It'd been maybe 15 years maybe 20 since we had last, like really connected. And he said, you are, I really hold you in high regard because. You were the first person that I ever felt beautiful around. Oh wow. And I said, wow, that's incredible. Like, when did that happen for you? And he said, when you held my hand in public, you were the first person to acknowledge publicly that I was with you. And you were with me. And so these like things that I think sometimes we take for granted and that I had taken for granted was such a huge experience for him in owning his beauty and his personal power. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of segs into the second part of my question court, which was, I feel like it takes a lot of. Attunement and presence to be able to hold that quality of space for someone's, for someone to feel safe enough to really. Lean into their edges for this multi-day, tailored designed experience. And I know you and I feel, I know how special you are and how safe and sensitive you are, but I wanted to ask what do you feel like your most like pivotal experiences were in your life that have informed you of how to hold such an exquisite space for others? In a sexual way. In a sexual realm. So wanna first acknowledge the word safe because I think huh. Such a loaded word. And for me it feels overused in the context of the work that we do and, emotional and physical spaces in general. What I would say is safe about me is the connection I have to my nervous system. Yeah. My nervous system relationship. I am, I know how to regulate myself, and so when people are around me, there is a sense of calm. There is a sense of feeling of they can put down hyper vigilance. The work itself is not safe. I it's edgy it's edgy, it's brave to enter into this space. You are entering into places where there are wounds and triggers and potential pleasures that you never expected. To be able to embrace the complexities of all that is so brave. And so I prefer we're entering into brave space together. Yes. Yes. With someone who has a connection and healthy relationship to my nervous system. Yeah. Over this blanket statement of I'm a safe space. I think that's really on point. Like it's almost like your relationship with your nervous system, your awareness of how grounded. And present you need to be, allows for like we're like tuning forks, it allows another nervous system to feel that groundedness in the space. Yeah. And allows the space to, to, to lean into that edginess, with the courage. Will you ask your question again? Because Yeah. I feel like the space you hold is, it is so unique and I wondered I wonder what like Pivotal experiences court went through during his sexual evolution that he feels like it really informed the quality of space that he holds for others. I think it's twofold. I think there's a level of attunement that I've always had since I was very young, just having to show up for my family in very adult ways as a protector, as a translator, as a mediator that have really, benefited me in my adult life. And in my sexual life, I feel in my thirties was really when I started to come back to myself because when I was younger I was a very erotic child. So sexual child, just really connected and curious about my body, about other people's bodies. Yeah. I, my first sexual experience was when I was four with another friend of mine who was four. And we just fondled each other and so I was very curious at an early age, and then I think there was a moment in time where I shut off because I noticed that I was different from other people. And how it was not safe for me to be inhabiting my body in that way. Wow. And really when I came to UCLA and when I was 19 years old I started, I came out, I started to venture, but I, what was still challenging is that, that HIV and AIDS was still really it was still top of mind. And it was still, there was hyper vigilance in my body around death, connected with sex and also stigmatization culturally and societally. And so I was very protective and a little bit prudish in my twenties. I also had two really long-term relationships and coming out of that in my thirties. Truvada had come on the scene, which is, prep for people who don't know what prep it is it keeps you from contracting HIV. And also the apps, the dating apps and the kind of hookup apps had come online. And I remember having this thought of, you know what court, if you're gonna do this, it's now. You're never gonna be as young. You're never gonna be as pretty, you're never gonna be as horny. Yeah. And you've got the world is your oyster here. And like I did it. I, when I say I did it. Yeah. And coming to the end of my thirties, I started to use sex in the way that I do now, which is more as a way of understanding myself better. Yeah. And having a lot of self-reflection and understanding how I relate to people and how I attach to people and how people attach to me. And I think to me, that is like the essence of really good sex therapy is, to be able to have encounters. And then instead of just being like I did that. Of allowing yourself to stew in the deliciousness of it and understand like what was so good about that? Or what was challenging about that? There's a couple instances where experiences I had and they still stumped me. And they're humbling. 'cause I'm like, I don't know what happened there. Wow. And I can't say why. And it's not that they were bad, it's just there was no there. And for me, there's usually they're there. And so there's this sort of question of like where was I? And where were they and how could we not meet? You talked about me as a performer. And I actually think it's relevant in this case because sex isn't performative for me, and performance wasn't performative for me. I see. So when I, and this happens to me when I'm with clients, still is, and it's similar to stepping out on the stage, for, 500 people or 25,000 people or whatever it was. Of there was this moment of intense emotion and excitement and anxiety and nervousness and adrenaline. And then I would step out and then I would inhabit myself. In a way that felt like like what I would describe as a trance state. And I feel that way in erotic connection. I feel like I go into some form of altered state of consciousness, which feels very similar to the altered state of consciousness I had while I was performing. Which is not, I wouldn't say it was like a channeling, but it was more like I had a different access to myself. Yeah. Yeah, I have different access to myself in those spaces. Yeah. Which you I'm wondering court as you're describing it, whether it feels like you were in a zone of flow. Yeah. Yep. So that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So whether it is on a stage in front of so many people, like once you inhabit yourself, as you said, you are really like in a zone and kind of a flow state. And that's analogous to when you are holding spaces for these erotic embodiment yeah. Experiences. And why I think that's relevant is because as a performer, there's no. There's no it's like when you step onto the stage, it's either you go into, either I would go into that space or I would be eaten alive. Right? And so I got really trained into turning it on. Like I know how to turn it on. It's just here we go. Yeah. And here we are. Yeah. So my ramp up to that is, is very short. I see. I can just decide. Wow. Wow. That's super cool. And that's really fascinating. I wanted to ask you about your work with men and in groups of men. Yeah. So I, yeah. Is there a specific question? Yeah, like on your website there's a description of the connect and sacred devotion these events for men. And when, I'm sure there are. Like, we talked over breakfast about like how when a group gets to a certain size it becomes its own organism. Yeah. And the kind of the healing energy like kind of ripples through the group as an organism, uhhuh. But I wanted to ask you like what you feel like the elements are that make these experiences that you hold for men. So it sounds like life changing for a lot of the men who attend. Yeah, I think I just wanna name that I'm still growing as a facilitator and as a space holder. And what I really feel in this moment in time is that, in the past I've thought to myself, we're not gonna win everybody. And, not everybody has to love this. And, if one person thought this was shit, that's okay. And I'm actually in this mindset of I don't. Want to leave people behind anymore. And what I mean by that is if somebody is having a hard time or their nervous system is dysregulated, that we actually don't put them out in the street with a an assistant to work it out on their own so that the group doesn't have to be disrupted. I'm feeling into this philosophy, which you know, is more about. Actually you are a valued member of this field of energy and this tribe and as a group will hold until you're ready to move on. And I think, having experienced that in containers that I've been an attendee in with that signals to me and in my nervous system is that I am valuable. And if that ever happens to me. That my tribe of people will actually stop and hold space for me and wait for me. And that feels so good. And it's not the norm. Yeah. I'm leaning into that and also leaning into not being perfect around it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a challenge for me too. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, that's a really. That, that shift, I think does signal to every participant that you too won't be left behind, that every part of you is welcome and the group will hold for that. Yeah. And this piece around. Permission and celebration. Our sexuality is not permissioned and is not celebrated most of the time. And to be in a space where everybody's like cheering you on for your kinks and your desires and your body and your expression of it and that's so fucking cool. Yeah, it's amazing. And it feel it, it feels so good. And my retreats are small. They range from eight to 12 men. And my workshops are a little bit larger in size, but usually on retreat I've had like generations of men. Wow. And what's so cool is there was a quote and I think it's, and maybe an African proverb, but it's like when we lose an elder, we lose a library. Yes. And I was like, wow, that's really so true. And I. I'm looking at how I am complicit and erasing my elders. And trying to embrace learning from all of the men in my containers and in my life who are from different generations and different backgrounds and different countries and speak different languages. And there's just such a, specifically with GBTQ men, there's such a rich diaspora. That exists when our, within our community, they're like communities upon communities and if we are entering from a place of celebration and curiosity, there's so much to gain from each other. Yeah. And putting aside sometimes of, I'm a 30-year-old man and the man in front of me is 70 years old, or, whatever. The kind of difference between us is like putting that aside and like meeting that person. Their erotic energy instead. And the agreements, one of the agreements that we have is showing up and considering your lineage of kindness and generosity, which is I can show up with you. I might not be having sex with you, but I can show up with you as a human and think to myself, how can I show up in a erotic way in, in my capacity that is physical also? That's a way that's gonna leave both of us feeling generous and kind in a way that it extends far beyond us. Like when you go out into your life. Our interaction has legs. And my interaction with you has legs. Yes. And I think that is a big part of the success of my retreats. Wow. That is so beautiful. Like I have this image of we're all just these gardens of soil and the erotic exchange that we have each other is the nourishment that nourishes like the soil that you take with you. Exactly. Yeah. So beautiful. So beautiful. So you know, to I want our, I want the audience to get a sense of some of the themes that are explored in these groups. And I was excited to see, certain themes like fantasy through shadow. How we surrender Intimacy group. Erotic practice. And, we touched on this a little bit before the interview, but Fantasy through shadow fascinates me. Yeah. Specifically like I saw the term on your website, alchemizing Shame. With me and my partner, we talk about how to eroticize something that was shameful. Eroticizing it and bringing, making it so pleasurable and using that erotic energy can really turn it on its head. But, as we discussed, if it's not done really, in a mindful way, it can also kind of reaffirms, someone's shadow or shame. I'm wondering what have you learned that makes a space like this? Most potent. And what must one look out for and be sensitive to when inviting? Living out one's dark fantasies? Yeah, I'll speak a little bit about trauma. Yeah. Because I think there are people that want to recreate their trauma as a form of recreating a new imprint. And I actually would caution against that. What I will say is that specifically people who have experienced childhood trauma and there is a connection, there's a, an erotic and turnon connection to that experience, right? In sort of western psychological culture, there's a lot of discussions of how do I get rid of this imprint? I don't want to think about it. I don't want it in my field of consciousness anymore. Let's work on rid myself of it. And the truth is the more you try to rid yourself of it, the more it's going to stay. And it's if we're able to embrace that actually, regardless of why it's a turn on for you that it is. And if we're trying to recreate a traumatic scene, I wouldn't advise that. What I would, what has been interesting for me in working with things like this is to understand what the what the elements are that are exciting. So if you're, if you were to write, if you were to write down an erotic story for me, I would be able to go through that story and circle kind of key words. And the key words are really like it's like they glow. And you can start to see where someone's turn on lives. And sometimes it's in power, sometimes it's in power exchange or submission or surrender. Sometimes it shows up in and wanting to be adored, wanting to be defiled or thought of as a toy or a non inanimate object. You can see what the themes are. From that, taking those elements and creating a completely new story, a completely new narrative that is co-created between you and your client, or you and your partner. That is new. You're taking the elements that are juicy for you, whether that's, I want to be adored, I want to be used. I want to be told what to do. I want to lose control. I want to be afraid. But in this way, you are choosing this. It is not something that is put on you. And you are having a adult discussion with somebody that you care about and checking in with them of how they feel. About doing this. And so it is this kind of negotiation of figuring out where the meeting point is and what takes place is creating a new imprint that is rooted in your core themes with choice, with agency. Exactly. Yes. And yeah, I think that's. I think that's really, it's really significant. Like you said, you're creating a new imprint in the body of your experience, but now you're at choice around it. So inherently there's you're coming because it is from choice. There's an element of agency and a reclamation around that kind of situation. Exactly. And that's something that is a felt sense. It's it might look the same to an outside onlooker, but how you feel around, I chose this. I actually created this scene. I also have a safe word and I can. Call it at any time. I know I trust this partner that they're gonna hold me in my best interest and in theirs. That they have a safe word that they can call. So there's a lot of discussion and communication. This is smart sex. Smart. Yeah. Yeah. It's smart and and it's a it's like you said, it's creating a new imprint around similar elements, but one where you are in charge and you do have agency. Yeah. And what I mean by smart sex is that there takes a level of awareness and a level of curiosity and digging and deep conversation and knowing yourself to be able to step into experiences like this. Yeah. I, if you don't have an awareness of what those core themes are, you need to take a couple steps back. I've heard of people that just like recreate traumatic experiences with people and they don't share it with the other partner. And that's actually out of, that is out of alignment and integrity with that other person. Sure. Like you are entering into something that is not consensual with the other person, not knowing what your traumatic experience is or what you are, what you're doing. And I don't believe in that either. I hear so what I'm hearing is agency choice, safe words specifically defined container and consensuality. Yeah, really big. Awesome. Awesome. I wanted to ask you with your men on your men's retreats, 'cause I saw a group erotic practice as one of the themes. Is that some, is that a practice that always occurs in your men's retreats? Yes. Group erotic experience can look a lot of different ways. We might be having a transpersonal experience. We might be having something that's a little more personal, but in an open space, we might be dialoguing with each other in ways that are, creating intimacy in more sensuality. But anytime you have a group of people that are engaging in eroticism. Whether that's witnessing or being witnessed or taking place where multiple people are in erotic space. It's a group erotic experience. Totally. And so that shows up in a lot of different ways and group erotic experience. Tho those are always present in my retreats and workshops. That's beautiful. I find that I think back to my sexological body worker training where it was like a daily morning practice during our in-person, retreat. And it's so beautiful and so powerful and honestly it's a sacred experience that's. Usually not shared. And so to share it is amazing. And it's not like people are staring at each other, it's just you feel everyone's kind of celebration of their eroticism, in a shared space and it can be so powerful and healing. Yeah, when I, to, to piggyback on that, of. Also to be able to, and what you're talking about is mindful erotic practice or a masturbation practice for people who don't know what mindful erotic practice is. Yeah. But to also see other people with kind of soft eyes, soft, how they practice. Yeah. It's oh, wow. I could be doing that. I didn't, I should get some sensation toys or. Maybe I'll tie my legs up next time and see how that goes of or maybe I'll go a little bit slower this time. Yeah. I really like, or maybe I'll get up and dance and move as part of my practice. Yeah. So I think, being with other people and seeing how they express. Specifically in this particular exercise is really valuable. It is very valuable. You learn so much and and it's fun and it breaks down the walls. I mean it, you, you experience that with a group for a number of days and you really feel like there, there's nothing to hide from each other. Yeah, it's really vulnerable. It's sure, really intimate, it's like it's all out there, it's absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I did also wanna mention it, I, so I know a lot of the one-on-one tailored specialized retreats you do are with men, the retreats, we've. Discussed are with men, but you also work with women one-on-one. I do. Yeah. And, with Back to the Body at the risk of generalizing, I did wanna ask you like, is your approach any different when you're working with women, either one-on-one or whether it's, yeah. When you're working with women one-on-one. I don't work with a ton of women one-on-one outside of the back to the body container. I've just started to do that more recently. I don't know that my approach is different. I think there's a long on-road process, so there's a, there's an intake meeting. There's an initial call. There's an intake call. So there's a lot of work that goes into connecting with each other and me knowing who this person is and what their kind of intentions are and what they'd like to get out of the work before they even show up on day one. I see. And it's like we just we arrive on day one and we start, it's not tell me about yourself. It's we've done all that. Totally. We got three days in the morning. Yeah. We wanna maximize we're doing the thing. And people have plenty opportunities to work with talk therapists and I'm a proponent of that. And I am a, not a talk therapist. I'm somebody that facilitates learning and growth and expansion through body-based exercises and experience. And I think people would be pretty disappointed if they came and just sat on my couch and talked all day. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I enjoy working with women as much as I love working with men, I think there are, there are differences and I am a person that needs variety Yeah. In my life. And I, what I love is to be able to work with women and then to go work with men. I never get bored. Cool. It's like I, I'm always in the place of being stimulated in terms of being in really interesting containers too. I bet. I bet. Yeah. Yeah. Every client is such a unique soul and brings such a unique alchemy with your energy. Yeah. I can see that. I can totally see that. I wanted to ask you about your, on the online community that you hold space for. Yeah. Yeah, I noticed, we talked about it over breakfast, but then I went to, your site body box.com and saw that it sounds like it's a, you're drawing in kind of these global, like these erotic explorers from all over the world and creating a safe space for people to really explore their unrealized or yet undiscovered sexual purpose or vision or experiences. Yeah. I'd love to hear what your intention was when you started it and how it's evolved and who it's for. Yeah, so I, I've been really big on Instagram for the last, probably like 14 years. I was an early adopter of Instagram. And my, at one point I had a really robust audience on Instagram, and I write weekly on Instagram. And because of the way that Instagram values sex educators and sex itself, which is, they don't, yeah, I've been shadow banned many times. I've lost my account about it back uhhuh, luckily, 'cause I knew somebody at Instagram, but it's been really hard for people to. To receive my, what I'm offering. And so I, I did create a, an online course. It's seven modules, and that's also for purchase in, in the community. The community is more of being able to read my writing on a more consistent basis and also interact with it. When I think about community, I actually, I've created a space and even on retreats in a workshop, I've created the space, I set the agreements, I set the tone. The way that I lead is a, an ear marker of how we behave and what we do, right? But I'm actually not the community. Like the community is the people that inhabit it and the connections that they have. And after people work with me privately and on retreat, it's like how do they stay connected and how do they stay within that space? And online is not in person and it's what we have to and what I have to hold a group of men that is growing and that live all over the place. Exactly. It's the best I can do until I can have a really huge event where everybody is able to come. Sure. Which that would be so fucking cool. TBD maybe in, five years when I've been at this for, a little bit longer. But yeah, it felt like something I wanted to create for. A people that can't come work with me privately, Uhhuh, but want to be in the juice of it all. Totally. And then for people who have worked with me and wanna continue to stay in the community, that's great. That's really great. 'Cause when people graduate there, there needs to be a container for them to, continue. One, stay connected, but staying connected really encourages people to continue going deeper. Yeah. And it's that, it's also that connection piece offers a way to practice some of the tools and the toys that you've learned. Yeah. In sessions and workshops and retreats, it's a comment I get is okay, I got all these I left. I drove into your car shop as a Honda Miata. And I'm leaving as a Ferrari. And I got nowhere to go. And it's so introducing, these extraordinary humans who have now this toolbox and this toy box of assets and newfound desires and ways to express it. To other, to potentially, play with or to even just share, to know that there's other people that exist out there that are open to this type of stuff is important. Yeah. It is important and it's encouraging and it's very affirming. Agreed. If we could just affirm each other a little bit more, I think a better place. Totally. Yeah. Court. I so affirm you. Oh, I love you. I think you're a rockstar dude. You're you too. You're just rocking it. I love I think everything you're doing is really fantastic. I appreciate that. Sure. Coming from you. That's a really huge compliment. Ah I'm glad we finally met up. It's ironic because we met at a woman's breast, Yeah. Health three day thing that our dear friend Pamela Samuelson was facilitating, and you and I were the only. Guys there and it was like the perfect, yeah, it was perfect that we met there. I thought I loved that. I love Pamela Samuelson. Me too. Me too. I loved that class. I loved learning just like about the body, and it was like lymph drainage massage and like scar tissue remediation, which you know, is like so opposite from what I do, and it's like such great knowledge to have. Such great knowledge to have. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Court, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us today. Thank you. How can people find you on ins on all your social media or what's the best way for people to reach out to you? Yeah, so my website is the body, BODY vox, the body vox.com and my socials are at the Body Vox and at Court Vox on Instagram and Facebook. Awesome. Awesome. Kur, thanks for being with us today and for sharing all of your insights. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thanks for the great questions. How is today's interview landing in your body right now? What feelings and sensations do you notice arising for you from this conversation? Are there ways you feel inspired or intrigued to alchemize any previous shame or trauma within a container of safety agency and choice? And if you asked yourself and your sexuality, if not now, then when? What bubbles up for you? Links to the body vox.com and courts info can be found in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Erotic Awakening & Energy, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Sexual Energy as Life Force: Tantra, Taoism & Vitality](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force-tantra-taoism/) **Published:** March 29, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** The deep wisdom from the tantric and taoist lineages synergize harmoniously through the space-holding partnership of Dr. Willow Brown and Leah Piper in SexReimagined.com. We explore the unique ways sexual life force finds its freedom and authentic pulse through each discipline and how Willow and Leah hold space for this energy to transmit and transmute through the bodies of their clients. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Sexual Energy as Life Force: Tantra, Taoism & Vitality # # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore sexual energy as life force and how traditions like Tantra and Taoism understand its role in vitality, connection, and spiritual development with Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown. You’ll learn how to work with this energy consciously in the body. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/WillowLeah.jpg "Willow&Leah | Rahi Chun") [Sex Reimagined + Awakening the Goddess Retreat in Greece](https://www.sexreimagined.com/) [Dr. Willow Brown](https://drwillowbrown.com/) [Leah Piper: More Love Works](https://www.moreloveworks.com/) About Our Guests: Leah Piper has over two decades of expertise in Tantra Yoga, Positive Psychology, and Somatic Therapies. She’s witnessed thousands of people heal from sexual trauma and awaken sleeping pleasures as an intimacy expert dedicated to guiding people toward sexual healing and pleasure awakening. She offers in-person VIP sessions, retreats and online programs covering the science behind the 4 orgasmic pathways, female ejaculation, sexual healing, and how to last 10x longer – amongst other topics. Dr. Willow Brown is a Chinese Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexuality Guide bridging sexuality, spirituality, and medicine. She guides clients from sexual pain, confusion, and dissatisfaction to heightened pleasure thresholds, promoting and opening the receptive pathways that lead to expanded states of consciousness and an open heart. She combines sexual healing and pleasure with herbs, nutrition, movement, and spiritual practices and offers in-person intensives, retreats and online programs covering the Jade Egg practice and Living Sexology – a 9 month Mastery program, amongst others. ## What You’ll Learn About Sexual Energy, Tantra & Life Force $ How past sexual traumas can serve as a resource when one finds the courage to travel to the other side – and how then the profound journey of healing and sexual reclamation can serve as a template for guiding and holding space for others. $ How sacred spot massage – a tantric genital massage involving the “sacred spot” – can access the soma of the entire body and how receiving this from the “masculine” – representing all men, and from the feminine – representing the universal feminine, as well as one’s self – in expanding one’s authentic experience of self-love, can be a cornerstone for understanding one’s potential for orgasm, healing and sexual wholeness. $ How Willow’s understanding of acupuncture and the meridians through which sexual energy travels informs her wisdom of how to access “sacred spots” throughout the body. $ For sexual abuse survivors, once the effects of the trauma have been addressed and the dark night of the soul traveled through, how the garden of delights and awakened consciousness in the body and soul are available to be realized with greater vitality, energy, and Jing Qi, as well as a connection to all things. $ How in tantra, how amplifying sexual energy pushes through anything that isn’t love – the stuff that gets stuck in the body – in order to purify the body and emotions for love and with that, magnify and amplify transcendent experiences. $ How Taoism takes that same sexual energy and uses it to purify the body, connecting us to our nature – feeding sexual energy to our glands and organs for more vitality leading to a similar result – extended states of transcendence. $ How supporting couples by getting on the same page and getting really curious when judgments arise, being willing to be influenced by our partner, and tracking when we get flooded emotionally so we can return to listening are all keys in their space-holding. $ How the most effective practices including mastering your breath and understanding various pressure point techniques are ways for men to learn how to play with your sexual energy masterfully – so you can attune to your partner’s body. ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological bodyworker and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. Before today's interview, an announcement that the hybrid online experience Divine Union for lovers begins on April 23rd. If you're interested in cultivating the relational and embodied pleasure skills necessary for expanding the body's capacity for extended lovemaking, go to Divine Union for lovers.com. Use coupon code podcast for a $100 discount. I'm delighted to invite Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown, the dynamic duo behind Sex Reimagined to the podcast today. They bring a unique blend of deep expertise in both Tantra and Taoism, in their online offerings, in-person session work, and comprehensive retreats, but more so they're just very cool people who share delight and clear purpose and empowering all bodies to reclaim and inhabit sexual wholeness and pleasure. We cover a range of topics, including Sacred Spot Massage, why Tantra and Daoism are so complimentary, how they support couples, and how they empower men in mastering sexual energy. Rahi: I am really, really excited for our listeners today. We have two, um, really dynamic experts, uh, in their respective fields of tantra and Daoism, and they've actually come together to form this really incredible dynamic duo and have created, uh, I jokingly call it an empire, but it's called Sex Reimagined. It's a podcast as well as a whole range of online courses. They offer VIP retreats trainings. Um, they have one for women, uh, on in Greece coming up, which we're gonna talk about. Um, but it's, it's a really wonderful synthesis of two really complimentary, um, ancient wisdoms of work. So let me introduce them and then we'll get into the interview. Um, Leah Piper has over two decades of expertise in tantra yoga, positive psychology, and somatic therapies. She's witnessed literally thousands of people heal from sexual trauma and awakened sleeping pleasures. She's an intimacy expert dedicated to guiding people towards sexual healing and pleasure awakening, and does so via, via her in-person, VIP sessions, retreats, and online programs, which cover everything from the science behind the four orgasmic pathways to female, to how to last 10 times longer amongst the other programs. Rahi: Dr. Willow Brown is a Chinese medicine doctor, and Dao sexual sexuality guide, bridging sexuality, spirituality, and medicine. She guides clients from sexual pain, confusion and dissatisfaction to heightened pleasure thresholds, promoting and opening the receptive pathways that lead to expanded states of consciousness and an open heart. Um, it was really interesting. She combines sexual healing and pleasure with herbs, nutrition movement, and spiritual practices. And she also offers in-person intensives, retreats and online programs covering everything from the Jade Egg practice to living sexology a nine month mastery program amongst others. And as I mentioned, together, they co-host the Sex Reimagined podcast and a whole array of online programs. It's wonderful to have you both on the podcast. Welcome. Thank Leah: You. You Willow: So much. Such a pleasure to be here. Rahi: Great. So, you know, I thought a great jumping off point so our listeners can get to know you, is, uh, if each of you can share some of the pivotal experiences and events in your journey, you know, of which I, I know there are many, 'cause it's been such a, an incredible like evolution for each of you. But if you can just share some pivotal experiences as a, that have informed you, you as a sacred sexuality teacher and leader, and also a space holder, you know, in, in your realm of expertise. Willow: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Leah. You dive in. Leah: Um, okay. So some pivotal pieces that have sort of shaped, um, my gifts mm-hmm . And also, you know, one of the ways that we establish those gifts and are able to offer them to the world is going through a portal of pain. And, um, I think the most, the most challenging piece of healing work that I had to do in order to support other people's healing was healing the sexual abuse I had as a kid. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And Tantra ended up being a big answer to resolving the shame and the fear and the guilt and the confusion that my system underwent mm-hmm . By being sort of initiated into sexuality at an age where, you know, most kids don't, don't get exposed to that. Yeah. So that was very challenging, very painful, but, you know, when you get on the other side of healing something that's been very painful, hopefully what you get to extract from it is meaning and purpose. Leah: Mm-hmm . And so when I think back to those original wounds as painful and as devastating as they were, uh, they now bring so much richness into my life mm-hmm . And it's such a privilege to be the template that can show other people who are navigating their own healing experience that there is the other side. Yes. And you can take some of the biggest tragedies that you have and turn them into something that you look back on now and go, you know, I'm, I'm not, I, it's okay that that happened mm-hmm . It serves like a much bigger purpose than me. So I, I have to feel like walking away from that sexual abuse trauma has given me so many gifts that I would've never thought was possible, and the vehicle of which I was able to heal. So much of that really came from, um, a practice called Sacred Spot Massage. Leah: Mm-hmm . And availing myself to receive it in three different waves. That really transformed how I experienced myself in the world. One was receiving that kind of healing modality, which is, um, to, to give you a short explanation, it's a genital massage, but it, it's a way to access the entire body through the sexual center mm-hmm . So, although a lot of the, the energy that's going into the body is through the genitals, it's affecting the soma of the entire body. Mm-hmm . So sometimes, uh, the reaction to that type of massage is ecstatic. Sometimes it's very painful, and you feel all sorts of sensations that are not comfortable. Other times it's a feeling of peace. Other times it's very frustrating because you can just feel numb. So you get to really encounter these different parts of who we all are as a human, and you get to navigate that. Leah: And, and through that experience, there came a lot of self-realization. And the three ways that I was impacted the most was when receiving that massage from, uh, a man, having the masculine support my nervous system, my body bear witness to my pain, to my pleasure. All the things that arises in that. There's something about interfacing a man and having that man represent all men mm-hmm . Which really dramatically unlocked a part of my essence mm-hmm . And then to receive that from a woman and having the feminine stand in and bear witness to this woman's journey of being, um, a being and also a sexual being and, and what she delivers and holds and stands for as the collective feminine. Just so many incredible ahas and, and an understanding of self that came through that kind of witnessing. So again, it was like the feminine had a piece that helped me unlock a part of my essential self. Leah: And then lastly, giving myself that massage and being responsible for my own self-healing, and to establish an authentic experience of which no one can give you. Like, that's, that's an inside job. That's a journey you can, you take on your own. And what I loved is that that modality helped me experience that on a, a spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual and energetic level. So that is probably like the biggest curriculum mm-hmm . That I had the biggest amount of transformation in my own life, and it is still the cornerstone of my curriculum that provides a container for other people's transformation. Mm-hmm . Whether they're looking to just become orgasmic or whether they are overcoming trauma. Um, it has such a wide range. And lastly, I would say the other thing that's really shaped my ability to be a space holder has been, um, something that I call energetic responsibility. Really learning the energetic arts Mm. And how profound it is in helping us be accountable and responsible for impacting others for our own triggers, for the way that we create safety in our world. Mm-hmm. So, uh, without going into a lot of details of that, I can just say it's been a really rich part of, um, of how I operate in the world, especially as a facilitator and as a partner. Rahi: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Wow. There's so many, there's so many rich jewels in what you just shared, uh, layout. I, I feel like the first thing you started with as far as like, recognizing that you have the, the, the somatic embodied like imprint and, and, uh, I think you called it, um, um, uh, like because you've gone through the journey from being a survivor to now being at a place where you can look back and see the gifts in that, I mean, that is such a powerful reflection that you've gotten to the other side. And because you've gone through that, you can, I mean, one, you're an example, but you also know from your own experience how to guide others through that, you know?For sure. Rahi: I mean, there's a reason it's called Sacred Spot. It is sacred. It's just this portal. Um, and so the power of that is so fantastic. Willow. Willow: Yeah. I love, I love listening to Leah tell her her healing journey and her healing story and the, the work she did with Sacred Spot. It's really powerful tuned into our, um, podcast y'all, because she talks in a lot more depth than some of our episodes around that. Um, so I, my sexual trauma happened later on in life. I was 19, so I had, um, you know, probably a lot more like foundation, but also it was very, um, I would say very insecure 19 year olds, you know, at that point, like as many 19 year olds are. And, um, I basically, my trauma was a one off situation, although there were a couple of, of questionable moments in my sexual journey. Um, but this one in particular was, uh, it was included rufinol, so did the date rate drug and, um, and rape. So, uh, that happened up in the Santa Cruz mountains up at the Brookdale Lodge. Willow: And it was wild. 'cause when I started doing the work with Source Tanha, where Alea has taught with Charles Muir for years, it was, it's just where we did our, our like, deep dive 10 day teacher training. Mm-hmm . Was like literally right up the road from the Brookdale Lodge. So it was pretty auspicious to just be right at the, you know, at the scene of where it kind of all began for me. And that, um, that from that, I, I got pregnant from that rape and just went on a huge healing journey from that point forward, decided to not keep the baby, decided to just get into the healing arts. I started to heal myself. I started to see how magical healing was, and I was like, okay, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Willow: And I just started doing, um, let's see, all the different healing modalities, like, started teaching yoga, started doing massage, went into Chinese medicine school, you know, just kind of ran, ran through it all, Qigong and Pilates and just, so I'm a bit of a walking wellness center at this point in my journey. truly. And, um, . And yeah, I mean, I just, and, and do, you know, helping people on their, on their sexual journey and helping them find their sexuality? For me, it's a little bit like giving someone ice cream for the first time. 'cause it's so amazing when they start to discover these places inside of themselves that they've never felt before either. They might feel it physically, like they might get tey or have some kind of orgasm that they've never had before. Or they might have like these expanded awake places of consciousness that show them how much, um, how much they're capable of. Willow: And so I really love to work with all individuals and couples, you know, around, um, all the different, different levels of opening up their sexuality. You know, Leah was speaking about the sacred spot, the, but it, it's that point, but it runs all the way through the whole body. And really, we can access a sexual energy at any point in the body. We can access it through the third eye. We can access it through the point right here on the wrist, you know, we can access it through any of the meridians or any of the acupuncture points. And I think that there's just a, a whole wealth of, of wisdom and magic that is innate within each and every one of us that we get to choose to explore. And sometimes it can feel like a can of worms. Like, I don't wanna touch that, I don't wanna take the lid off of that, but it is worth it. Willow: And, you know, as Lou was speaking too, like, once you get to the other side of that kind of, you know, painful point, that dark Knight of the Soul Point, it's like all, all of the, all the sun starts to shine and the roses start to open. And it's just like you start to see, um, and hear things differently in your life. It's like you have a different lens on, and it's a lens that's filled with more of vitality, more creativity, um, sexual energy, we call it Jing Chi and the Dao, we call it Shakti in the, in the re tradition. And it's, it's the life force energy that is in everything. So you start to, um, walk through the world feeling so much more connected, not just to the people that you love and the people you're close to, but to all people and all things, not, not even just like trees and, and animals and rocks, but even just like inanimate objects. You know, there's more of a like a relationship to your desk in your chair. And, you know, the things that, um, we don't think of as, as having living energy, but they all do. Mm-hmm . Rahi: You know, it's so interesting listening to both of your journeys because you, you've both, you're both survivors, um, of, of a sexual violation. And you've both had the courage to really move through and metabolize those experiences, you know, in your, in your, uh, in your unique journeys to get to a place where, um, you're on the other side and, and you can look back and, and recognize how it's informed your journey. And now you are holding space for others to do that as well. Um, but I, I just, you know, listening to you guys share, I mean, certainly the Sacred Spot Massage, Leah, what you were sharing about, like how important it was to, um, experience that with a, a, a masculine presence, a feminine presence, and then with yourself. And then Willow, just your knowledge about the, you know, the meridians and how, you know, there is a, a different access point to our sexual energy, you know, throughout the body. I'm just, I'm really curious how there's such a, a depth and breadth that each of you bring. How do you guys synthesize these two ancient wisdoms in your space holding in your trainings and retreats and, and, and, um, and, and VIP experiences Willow: Effortlessly? . . Yeah. Um, no, I mean, we, 'cause Rahi: They do compliment each other, so, well, I, yeah. I think there's, there's, would, would love to hear like, oh, yeah, okay, we, we understand because there's such great insights. But I'm curious, like, how do you guys interweave that? Um, Leah: Well, I, I would say first of all, like now that Willow and I are in each other's orbit, like there's probably nothing that I teach that she doesn't couldn't teach or doesn't teach to, right? So now it's like we share such a common language because we are in each other's fields so much. I've learned so much from Willow that this interplay's very easy where we can bounce back and forth with these various concepts because they're both inside of us. So it's not like we only hold, like, Leah only holds the tantra and Willow only holds the Tao. We're very much interchangeable and fluid with, with the content. But one of the things that I think is really rich is if we were to take a look at like, how would I describe Tantra and Taoism and how they're the same, and how they're different is in, in tantra, we take sexual energy, we build it up, we amplify it, we move it through the system so that we become more awake. Leah: And in that awakening, it pushes through anything that isn't love. And that's why it's so healing, right? The things that are, that I haven't been metabolized and gotten stuck in the body, it, when we have love pouring into you, it gives it an experience so that what isn't love can come up and out. Mm-hmm . Purifying the body, purifying the emotion so that you can then fill yourself with love because you've just emptied the junk. And with that love, you can magnify and amplify pleasure. So that's why people, that so many results of practicing tantra lead people to bliss and nirvana and these extended transcendent experiences of pleasure. So we use that sexual energy, we heal the emotions, and we further that into pleasure. And that furthers into enlightenment. Taoism takes that same sexual energy and uses it to purify the body so that the body is filled with more vitality. Leah: It connects us to nature so that our relationship to nature is more profound, is deeper, is in greater harmony. So you can take that sexual energy and you can feed it to the gland. You can feed it to the organs, and by doing so, you make your body healthier. And also makes you filled with vitality, which also produces, again, a very similar result. Mm-hmm . Which is greater happiness, more peace, greater pleasure, extended states of transcendence and awareness of yourself, and its harmony with nature. So you can see how they're, they're different, but they're also the same. Rahi: Yeah, yeah. They are so, so complimentary and similar. Willow: Yeah. And then the way that, you know, Leah and I teach together and, and come together, it's like I was, um, interviewing one of our listeners, because I'm doing a little interviewing listeners these days, and she was like, I like it when you guys disagree. I was like, oh, do we disagree , you know, she's like, because it just gives me different perspectives on like, oh, I might have been holding the one you, you were holding Willow, but then Leah says something else and it turns on something else in my brain. And so I think that, yeah. That's fun. Um, we, we actually don't disagree a lot. It's very rare. But, you know, I think that, I think that we both, um, bring different sort of, well, just different perspective lenses, experiences. Mm-hmm . Similar in many, many ways. But then, you know, occasionally we can really, um, light something up in somebody that they may not have thought of before, whilst they're already warmed up and like, on the same page with us as a team mm-hmm . You know mm-hmm Leah: . Yeah. We do gentle pushbacks, you know, which is, is fun. Uhhuh Willow: Uhhuh. Rahi: Yeah. I think it's, it's, uh, it probably hones both of your insights, you know, as you were sharing Leah, you know, both of you are so familiar with each other's body of, body of bodies of work. It kind of blends into one now. Um, but they are, you know, like in my experience with both fields, I mean, you can almost use different, uh, semantic words to describe the same experience. I mean, what is sexual energy as life force energy? And, and, and in Dao, you know, what is metabolizing the emotions is really clearing the organs and like clearing the channels. Mm-hmm . You know, in Dao they're very, very complimentary. And so it's, it's very exciting. Like this, this combo, it's like you're bringing two different tool toolkits, you know, for really the same result or the same, you know, very similar experience. Willow: I, yeah. I had a, um, a teacher along the journey. One of my Chinese medicine teachers was like, it all comes from Tibet. 'cause he was, he was pretty adept at the, at the Ayurvedic medicine as well. And Tantra is more from the Indian tradition, the Vedic tradition, and the Chinese medicine more from China. Um, and he just had this theory, pretty strong theory. This teacher has since passed. But he was always like, it's all coming from the from the layers. Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah. So, Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. I, Leah: Yeah. I think another distinction, um, that people often we'll talk about is tantra tends to have more of a feminine essence. Like its teachings have sort of this, it's, it's the goddess is always brought in and there is a really beautiful piece that feels very of the feminine. And then with Taoism, there's a very strong masculine essence because there's a part of like, discipline and commitment. And there are certain practices have sort of more of a masculine mm-hmm. Flavor mm-hmm. And agenda. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . And I think that's another thing that's really fun about playing with both, um, with both schools. Mm-hmm Rahi: . That's a really interesting distinction. And I would agree. Sorry, Willow, were you gonna jump into Willow: No, I was just gonna say that. And at the same time, they both are so honoring of the masculine and feminine. Yeah. You know? Yes. Very holistic in their approach. Rahi: Yes. Yes. Very holistic. Okay. Speaking of, um, uh, metabolizing emotions and clearing channels, I wanted to ask you guys, when you're working with couples, um, how do you support nervous systems in past wounding from hijacking the, you know, usually the shared desired intimacy that, that comes in the moment? 'cause we've all seen couples, you know, when we hold space for couples, a lot of times they're ping ponging and getting, you know, getting, it's like triggers going ping pong. Yeah. You know, when in fact deep down they're wanting the same thing. Mm-hmm . And, um, how do you, um, support nervous systems and, and, uh, and empower couples to have these tools to support themselves, like in their privacy? Leah: Yeah. So I think first is getting them on the same page around what are we doing here? So one of the things that I try to help couples do is opening up the work with having a shared perspective. Mm-hmm . Which means being curious. Mm-hmm . Because when we are in conflict, um, judgment is just right there at the surface. We're judging ourselves or we're judging them, we're blaming ourselves or we're blaming them. And so to be able to get really curious when we start to notice judgments arise mm-hmm . So that they're leaning in, because that gives the brain a break from going into attack and makes us go, huh. That is really interesting that my tone of voice is always like that when I get triggered. Mm-hmm . Okay, that's good information. So that we have something that we are, we return to when things get a little hot. Leah: Mm-hmm . Um, the other thing is making a commitment that you are willing to be influenced by your partner. Mm-hmm . That you're willing to be influenceable. You're not just going to always hold a defensive structure and then close everything down and not really choose. Like, your partner may have really important information for you, you may not like the information mm-hmm . But if you can be willing to be influenceable mm-hmm . It shifts your ability to listen mm-hmm . And then also tracking when we're getting flooded, because when we start to get flooded emotionally, um, our heart rate starts to beat faster and it shuts off our listening ability mm-hmm . So to be able to go, okay, it's now time to just have a break from speaking and allow our heart rate to go down mm-hmm . And so giving them tools, something like Havening, which is a type of self-soothing that you can do in the moment, and it only takes a couple of minutes to come outta the flooded state once the heart rate has shifted mm-hmm . Leah: So that you can get back to listening mm-hmm. To being able to deeply listen to yourself and to be able to deeply listen to your partner mm-hmm . So that you can come towards each other. Mm-hmm . And then again, that would be the last principle that I wanna share right now is sometimes we get in this defensive habit of turning away from each other in conflict, but if we can learn to turn towards each other, even when it's hard, then that increases our chances to become closer, even though we're in an obstacle. So we can actually, you know, the end result is, let's have even more intimacy because we face something difficult together, and then that makes the bond even stronger. Rahi: Love it. Love it. Yeah. Willow: Absolutely. It's so powerful, the turning towards each other, and I feel like it's, um, it's, it's often coming stemming from childhood, you know, this mm-hmm . And, and like, where, where was, where was our original sort of like wound or our original sort of like, I don't feel safe, you know, and, and at what point in time did we develop the pa the pattern of protection to keep ourselves safe around that? And so, you know, for for many people, the turning away is, is part of that like, quick knee jerk reaction. Like, I'll go figure it out by myself. I'll go over here and, and not work it out with my partner. I'm so, you know, I'm so flooded that I can't be next to that person. And there is value for sure in taking some space until you can, like, with truth and with full presence and essence turned toward each other. Willow: Um, but I think that, you know, in the turning toward each other, it's, there's a nervous system co-regulation that needs to happen and sort of a, a reset point of your nervous systems to, to get back on the same boat, to get back on the same page, because it's so easy for, um, for, for those nervous systems to get re-triggered again in just like, in one single word. And that brings us to samskara. You know, the, that brings us back to these original wounds and, you know, these, these moments in life when we were, um, not safe, you know? And so I think it's, it's really like, if you can think about your partner in a way of like, how can, what can I do? Or how can I make them feel safe? Then I think that that creates a lot more bond and a lot more trust. Willow: And sexuality is one of the places where we feel the least safe, especially in this culture and the upbringing that we get societally with our, you know, sexual education that isn't really there. And so, um, so I think that, you know, when, you know, people are coming to us, a lot of times when there is like sexual disparity, one wants it more than the other, or there's just like, they keep getting triggered or it's not working, or they're just not having it at all, or, um, you know, so many variations of that. And, and so yeah, getting them to, to learn each other's protective pattern and how to be with that protective pattern inside of the realm of sexuality is a huge key to a big lock locked door. Mm-hmm . So, yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of part of what Leah was talking about earlier with what she studied with the energetic responsibility. You know, there is a, a real, like understanding your partner's pattern. Anyone you're intimate with, the, the children, the parents, anyone mm-hmm . How they keep themselves safe. If you, if you can understand their method for that and learn how to be with it in a way that gets them out of pattern and into presence, then, um, you know, you are gonna be winning in your intimate relationships. Leah: Yeah. I have to say, if I can just piggyback on that mm-hmm . There's so much value there, because oftentimes we're in, we're with partners who do different patterns Willow: Mm-hmm . Leah: And so once you can start to learn, okay, this is what I do when I get triggered, here's the pattern. Oh, that's what my, that's what my partner does. Yeah. Okay. So now you can start to go, okay, ding, ding, ding, I'm going into pattern mm-hmm . And now that isn't been working, it's not solving the problems that I hope it's creating separation. Mm-hmm . Instead of closeness, then you start to have compassion for yourself. You start to have compassion for your partner, you start to understand their ecosystem a little bit mm-hmm . And then you've got strategies so that you make a commitment, I'm gonna come back to love as quickly as possible when I find myself separate. Mm-hmm . I'm gonna find more effective safety strategies that are not based on my childhood conditioning from when I was a little kid, but now I'm gonna take a look at how can I be more conscious of myself. Leah: Mm-hmm . How can I be more supportive of my partner and, and give that gift of understanding. Because one of the most healing things in partnership, and it sounds so simple, but it's still so hard to do, is when someone understands you, it, like, it unplugs you from the chaos a little bit. It's like they don't have to agree with you, but if someone understands how you got to where you are in that moment of pain mm-hmm. You're no longer alone. Yeah. It, it's somehow like that feeling of separation dissolves because they get you. Mm-hmm. They still may not like your reaction, but they understand how you're feeling and, and the path of how you got there. Mm-hmm . And then, like, there's a place of connection in that. And so I always encourage people, try to understand your partner, try to get them Yeah. And that's a first place. And, and finding some new solutions mm-hmm Willow: . And that's, that's one of the first things we like our, our couples to, to understand about each other is their core values. Like what do they really, really value? What are their top two core values in life? And, and why are those their values? And then what are yours and how do those values match, and how do they not match, you know? Mm-hmm . For example, my ex and I, you know, one of his top core values was I think, um, fairness, fairness, fairness. Mm-hmm . And I don't give a about fairness, , you know, . So it just, it wasn't like it didn't synergize. Yeah. Well, you know, and, and I think Leah and I both like, are some of our very top core values are understanding, which we've just been speaking about and love coming back to love. And so, um, you know, so, uh, we're a match to, to bring this, this into the world together. Mm-hmm . Rahi: Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, wow. For a moment, I went, I went to you and your ex and, and trying to figure out how that would work. If one person it values fairness and the other one doesn't give a about it. Um, but yeah, maybe Will Willow: Willow would just, maybe not that I don't give a about it, , but it was just, it was such, it was, um, what the other one was, um, for him was, um, like getting back in a timely manner. Like, uh, felt like an honoring to him if like, he said something and then you replied within a, you know, certain timeframe and he would get really anxious, like if people wouldn't reply. I can't think of the words that he used for it, but yeah, those two things. And, and I'm just a lot more laid back and like, yeah, life isn't fair. Like the cookie crumbles the way it crumbles and, you know, just like, that's sort of what I grew up hearing. So, um, so it was just, um, Leah: But share, share how you leveraged Willow when you understood that fairness, for example, was an important value for him. How did you leverage that to be a better partner to him? Willow: Yeah. I would, I would just keep that in mind, you know, and so I would like try to create fairness within the relationship. Mm-hmm. And, and ask him like, what does this feel like an equal exchange? You know, like, does this feel fair to you? Does this, you know, use the word more. And even that within communication with couples is like, once you understand what someone's core value is, you can start using language with those words in, in the, um, communications with them. And they're gonna feel so much more seen and so much more heard. Oh my God. She said fairness four times in a sentence, so Wow. She gets me , you know? Yeah. Rahi: Mm-hmm . Totally. Totally. Well, I love that we're, um, talking about like, really kind of the, the basic foundations of relational intimacy, right? Understanding Leia as, as you pointed out. Like, you know, what is our shared intention in, in this dynamic, in this relationship? And what you pointed out Willow, like what are, if we can understand each other's childhood experiences and how our nervous systems and defensive responses came to be, we can be an ally with each other. Right. So I wanna move on to, um, asking like, how does this show up in, in sexuality and in the bedroom? And I wanted to ask like, what are, what are some of the most common misunderstandings that you see within couples, right. Um, that they come to you wanting to resolve? Like, I think, I think one of you shared, uh, about misaligned, um, you know, desire levels or Yeah. Disparity Willow: And desire. Yeah. Disparity. Rahi: Yeah. And, and, you know, in concert with that, I, I wanna ask like, if you had a mega horn to dispel some of the most biggest misunderstandings around sexuality, what would that be? Hmm. So it's kind of a two part question. What are the most common, uh, like misunderstandings that clients come to you with wanting to resolve? And what are some of the most misunder, common misunderstandings you see in the realm of sexuality that people, if they just learned this so much, would be resolved? Mm-hmm Leah: . Well, I could start off by saying what a lot of people don't know is that women have as much erectile tissue inch for inch and ounce for ounces men mm-hmm . So when you think about an aroused penis, now imagine that women have them too. Ours is just organized differently. Mm-hmm . And, and I think when women understand, like, and men, like we are the same bodies. We have the same anatomy. We're just organized differently, including our desire levels. We have the same desire, but our desire is organized differently. And when we can kind of come from that place, what happens is the person who feels less than, they feel inadequate, they feel broken, they can never get their partner everything that they want. You know, it's like they always feel like they're not measuring up mm-hmm . When they start to realize, wait a minute, I'm not actually, I'm just organized differently. Leah: I have to discover. And so does my partner have to discover that there's a pathway in mm-hmm . Let's go exploring. Let's treat this as an adventure. Mm-hmm . We don't have to make each other wrong. We one isn't better than the other. It's just, uh, it's just having permission to unlock some new keys. And that requires some learning. Mm-hmm . We're not born knowing all this stuff. We actually have to invest our time and our resources and our money and conversations into educating ourselves on how to be a great lover. Mm-hmm . We're not given that manual. And so if we can start to take a look at the art of love, that it's an art form that we can be empowered to pursue. I mean, most people in the west have enough resources. They're not struggling with a roof over their head. Mm-hmm . Most people, not all people have enough to eat. Leah: They've got clothes on their back, they're employed most, not all mm-hmm . Um, that gives us a lot of privilege to actually pursue a little bit of art in our life. And what greater art is anything but the art of love, it enriches us on every single level. And so I think that's sort of a beginning framework, and then you can take a look at all different factors because there's so many different factors that causes us to have a diminished sense of desire. Mm-hmm. And a feeling of sexual aliveness in our system. And there's so many interventions that can lead someone to success, whether that's taking a look at your nutrition, taking a look at your hormone levels, which is, uh, uh, definitely in the realm of Willow's expertise. Mm-hmm . If it's taking a look at your trauma and overcoming stagnation in your system because of stuck emotional energy that you can start to alleviate for if it's simply understanding erectile tissue and figuring out how does arousal work in my system, or for me, which by the way, here I am someone almost 25 years in the sex industry, and I'm still reawakening parts of my desire that I had no idea were there. Leah: Mm-hmm . So it's like you always stay a seeker, keep learning, keep uncovering your erotic mind. Mm-hmm . You know, like pursue living a turned on life. And by the way, enjoy it changing, because it does change what turned you on in your twenties is probably gonna be different than what turns you on in your fifties. Mm-hmm . Willow: Mm-hmm . Hopefully. Um, yeah. Hopefully. Exactly. Yeah. So I would say, you know, that one of the biggest issues that couples do come with is that disparity. And it, it is often the, the woman who's like, I just don't really wanna have sex, you know? Mm-hmm. And the man's like, ah, she never wants to have sex. And the man feels like, you know, he's always having to initiate and she feels like she has to do it just to keep him happy. I mean, that's a very common one. Mm-hmm. Very common one. There, there are definitely other things times when the woman comes in and she's like, he is not giving it to me. You know? Mm-hmm . And so it can definitely go both ways, but that's probably one of the most common, um, things that we see. And yeah, it's, um, it, it, it is about, it is about education. Willow: Everything that Leah just said, you know, like teaching women, like, 'cause a lot of times a woman might not be interested because she doesn't know her own body, she doesn't know how her erectile tissues flood and open and neither does her partner. And it always hurts, and it doesn't feel that good. And she's faking orgasms, you know, and, you know, and she might be in perimenopause and her, you know, estradiol and testosterone are low, and so she is just really not, she isn't, she'd rather just read a book and drink some tea, you know, God bless her, her heart and her soul, but if we can get her diet cleaned up, if we can get her herbs on point, you know, if we can maybe get a little bioidenticals in her if she needs them, depending on where she's at in her journey, and then teach her about her body and have her start exploring herself in new ways that she never has before. Willow: And this requires getting over shame. It requires getting over guilt. It requires breaking through a lot of big constructs that are stuck in the soma mm-hmm . Circling back to the sacred spot, you know, how do we clear that shame and that drama? We go up in there and we do sacred spot. I'm actually putting together a, um, a training for women's pelvic floor release therapy, and I would just love for men to take the training. You know, I would love for men to know how to therapeutically go into a woman's v JJ and actually clear out trauma and help her somatically unravel the things that are in there that she doesn't even know are in there, you know? Right. And so it's, um, it's a huge world of untapped possibilities between couples and it, and, and it does require energy and time, and so that's mm-hmm . Willow: Those are things that people feel that they don't have enough of is energy, time, and money mm-hmm . And so, um, it does require those things and mm-hmm . I don't, I don't know what to say about that. You either have to decide that it's a priority or just just let it go. That's what it comes down to, is prioritizing. I mean, we all know rahi, you know, from being on this path as well. Like what happens when you start prioritizing learning how to move sexual energy through your body in a different way. It doesn't have to take a long time. In fact, I've studied every healing modality under the sun, and the sexual healing is the, is the fast track. Mm-hmm . It's the fastest way to healing. And so, you know, I think that, that sometimes when people are like, oh, I don't wanna open the can of worms. Willow: I don't wanna invest, I don't wanna spend the time, they, it's gonna take a long time, and it really doesn't have to take a long time to break through the shame, the trauma, the guilt to get to the pleasure. And then, you know, then the layers unfold from there. You know, you'll have little pockets of shame and guilt come through again. Yeah. But you'll, you'll break through them much quicker. Yeah. This lotus pedal flower just keeps unfurling. And as Leah pointed to, you know, 25 plus years in whatever, she's still discovering places inside of her psyche, places inside of her body that are igniting new, amazing and interesting levels of, of arousal and excitement. And I think that's, you know, that's what tantra is. Tan is an expansion and tra is a weaving. So it's a weaving of expansion into our bodies and our lives that, um, we all hold the possibility of. Leah: Yeah. You know, Rahi, you mentioned like, what's a misconception? Um, one of the things I see all the time, especially in the seminar world, is can I can't practice tantra if I don't have a partner? Mm-hmm . That tantra, somehow you have to have a partner in order to start in, and it's just not true. There are so many incredible solo practices, don't wait. Yes. For the perfect partner to come into your life to get started on the, one of the richest experiences of your life. There's so much you can cultivate. And actually even couples who come, we still tell them, you need a solo practice. This is a cultivation practice. There are things you need to do on your own. Mm-hmm . It's like, it's like being a part of an orchestra. You don't just show up to play with the band, you have to practice your instrument Yes. In order to make this epic music. Yeah. So it's, it's not either or. It, it's something that every person, whether you're coupled or not, needs to go into that self-inquiry. Rahi: Yeah. I, I so agree. I mean, it's like, I mean, it's ironic because I think a lot of people who are not partnered or coupled, you know, if they did engage in these practices, their channels would open up and magnetize, you know, exactly what it is they're wanting. Totally. You know, and, and going back to your experience of, of the three waves of the sacred spot massage, you know, engaging in yourself and, and, and being a part of that reclamation process for yourself, I think's such an integral and important vital part of one sex sexual reclamation journey. Totally. Um, and I to, I totally concur with both of you. I mean, what we've seen in the client's evolution and consciousness, in their capacity to receive, in their self-awareness, I mean, sexuality is such kind of a direct portal or gateway. It's the root, like Willow: It's the root , it's the root of where we all come from . Rahi: Absolutely. Leah: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, one of the things I do when I'm first coaching a new coaching client is I have them fill out this form and I, I have them explore, uh, maybe 10 or 12 different sectors of their life. You know, everything from, um, their lifestyle with food and exercise to their financial, um, health to their playtime. Like what, you know, having fun, being playful to family time, all these different sectors of their life. And I do that so that we can measure where they are when they first came in. Mm-hmm . Even though our focus is gonna be on sexuality and intimacy. Yes. When they start to make some changes mm-hmm . And do some work around their intimate sexual life, we start to see when they take the test again. Yeah. How, how it actually affects these other sectors in life. These non-sexual areas in our life are greatly benefited by us doing the work in our sexual life. They do bleed over, they have a relationship to the whole part of our system, not just this one area. Rahi: It's like life force, life force, right? Yes. Willow: Exactly. Rahi: When you expand and feel safe, expanding your vessel for receiving life force mm-hmm . You start to get promotions at work. Yes. Leah: Personal life, you lose weight. It's like, what is happening? Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it really, it's the root willow. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's our core. It's our, it's our core. It's what cre, you know? Yes. I couldn't agree with you more. Okay. So, um, I understand that there's an opportunity coming up, uh, that you're hosting something in Greece for I think women to really embody and come into this, this, you know, take ownership of their pelvis and their sexual energy and life force. Could you share a little bit about that? Willow: Yeah, yeah. We're really excited. We're doing a pilgrimage to Crete in Greece, and we are going to be helping women really awaken the goddess within. So we'll be going to ancient temples, doing Qigong and healing work. We'll be doing sacred spot work. We'll be doing, um, all kinds of opening of the different meridians in the body that hold lots of powerful sexual energy. Um, and we're just, just really excited for this. It's gonna be life changing for the women who come. It's gonna be life changing for us. So that's one of the things that I think we really bring as facilitators, is we are right there with our, our students, you know, going through the journey with them mm-hmm . Rahi: Oh, that's so, it's so enriching and Yeah. Leah: Yeah. We're really, you know, like I said earlier, it's, it's an opportunity to go and to be witnessed. And so I, I often liken it to we're giving birth to ourselves mm-hmm . And the other women that are joining us are wifeing us as we give birth to more of our wholeness, to more of our radiance mm-hmm . To more of our turn on. And when I say turn on, it's not just being turned on in our sex, it's really about what does it mean to live a turn on life, turn on life, on life. Mm-hmm . I wanna walk outside and be turned on. Like, I'm looking outside this window right now. I'm in Hawaii and it's so lush, you know, and I can feel that lushness represented out there, and I can feel it in my skin. And when you eat, you wanna be turned on when you walk, you wanna be turned on what can turn us on, what lights us up. And so it's so beautiful to be immersed in a community of people who are learning what that means for them and, and then turning each other on, you know? Yeah. When you've got peer people who are mirroring that back to you, you don't, you walk away being changed, you know, you, you're gonna come to Greece one way and you're gonna leave a whole new other way. Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's something really magical about immersions, especially when you're lifted out of kind of your regular day-to-day environment, and then you're in this very, very specific and intentional container and engaging in the practices that you have all curated for this, for this experience. It's, it sounds like it's a once in a lifetime kind of life-changing experience you're, you're holding space for, and I love that you guys are, are, are in, like, you, you understand how you yourselves are being rebirthed, you know, by being witnessed and holding space for it as well. Leah: Yeah. Rahi: How do people find out about this retreat? Willow: They can go to sex reimagine.com, or they can go to either one of our websites, dr willow brown.com or more love works.com. And, um, you'll see it there at the top of the, of the, uh, website Leah: Homepage. Yeah. Rahi: Exciting. So exciting. Okay. Before we let you guys go, um, there was one topic, uh, that there was, there was a, a, a topic that I know you guys, uh, are very passionate about mastering male sexual energy mm-hmm . And there are beautiful practices from both the Tantra and Daoism where it's the application of breath sounding and movement to move the energy or the microcosmic orbit. Um, what have you found to be the most effective practices as you support penis owners in? Choice? Willow: Breath, . Yeah. Breath is really, breath is key. Leah: A big player. Mm-hmm . Um, I think too, there are various pressure point techniques mm-hmm . That, um, men should, penis owners should learn to apply, find out which one is best for you. Mm-hmm . Your go-to favorite technique, they're short techniques. They are, they don't involve a lot of things. You don't need to buy products in order to do these techniques. Right. It's really, really simple. And they're so much success in becoming, um, more competent in, in knowing that your sexual energy doesn't run you, you run it. And when you feel like you've got choice and control, you're able to relax in the sexual experience. And, um, it's so beautiful to watch somebody start to learn that, learn how to have more mastery with their system. Yes. Uh, their confidence grows, um, and, and what they attract in the world is really, really beautiful. It's one of my favorite topics is helping men really understand how to play with their sexual energy more masterfully. And that also means learning how to amplify their arousal in different ways. Absolutely. You know, understanding their arousal scale, understanding when you wanna do a technique so that you cool things down, even if the technique is simply slowing down your breath and opening your eyes. Mm-hmm. They're pretty simple things. Mm-hmm. That can help you calibrate where you are. So you can last as long as you want, Rahi: And you end up playing your body as if it's this you, you know, like classical instrument. Willow: Instrument. Yeah. Yeah. Leah: Yeah. And when you're less worried about your body's functioning, you're really able to attune to your partner's body mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And then that gives you a whole nother way of being present mm-hmm . Because you're less anxious, um, over your own system. Mm. Willow: Yes. That's such a good point. I think that's one of the biggest things that kind of gets in the way for men is they're worried about their performance and, and is their partner in pleasure and I better do it harder and faster and quicker. And so she's in more pleasure. And, you know, it's there, there's a lack of attunement. There's an epidemic of lack of attunement going on . So, um, it's, it's really such a pleasure to teach a man what attunement looks like. 'cause it's kind of hard to, to describe, but if you can show him what it feels like, he, he can get it really quickly and he can start to attune to his partner and in a different way. Rahi: Beautiful. Beautiful. So, um, I wanna say to our listeners, Leia and Willow, they offer all listeners a free set of training videos to explore, uh, one of three topics, either overcoming sexual obstacles, deepening partner intimacy, or activating turn on an orgasm at sex reimagined.com/adventure, all of their sites. More love works.com, which houses lay tv. It's the incredible library of free videos on all topics regarding sexuality. And dr willow brown.com, where she has blogs and incredible freebies, unconscious uncoupling, and how to pleasure like a pro . All of those website links will be in the show notes. Um, Leia Willow, thank you guys for being such I important educators and facilitators and space holders for, you know, this is work of the soul, this is work of consciousness. This is work that really changes people's lives, and it's such a pleasure to have you guys on the podcast. Thank you for, thank you for, for being who you are and, and shining your light, uh, Willow: So much. Thank you much for having us. Yeah. So fun. Such a pleasure, Rahi, thank you too for doing what you're doing in the world. Rahi: How is today's interview landing in your body right now? Can you imagine what a transcendent experience it would be to receive sacred spot massage from a masculine space holder, a feminine space holder, and from yourself? Can you imagine how it would be to amplify your sexual energy to release what may be in the way of love throughout your body, and to nourish and tone your glands and organs for greater vitality and aliveness through Tantra and Daoism links to sex reimagine.com. More love works.com and dr willow brown.com and their free training videos are in the show notes. Until next time, take good care. Speaker 4: . [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Erotic Awakening & Energy, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Extended Lovemaking, Inspiration, Pleasure Practices, Sacred Sexuality, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, Tantra, Taoism --- ### [Sexological Bodywork: Foundations of Somatic Sexual Healing with Joseph Kramer](https://rahichun.com/podcast/joseph-kramer-sexological-bodywork/) **Published:** May 21, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Joseph Kramer founded two seminal institutions that have produced 1000s of somatic sex educators, sexological bodyworkers and sacred intimates all over the world, namely, The Body Electric School of Massage and Rebirthing, approved to train professionals in California in 1984, and the profession of Sexological Bodywork, approved as a profession by the State of California in 2003. The curriculum for both institutes came to him during extended lucid heightened erotic states during which creativity and consciousness bypass the rational mind. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Sexological Bodywork: Foundations of Somatic Sexual Healing with Joseph Kramer # # # # ### ### Copy **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the origins of sexological bodywork and its role in somatic sexual healing. You’ll learn how body-based education restores connection, sensation, and embodied awareness. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/JosephKramer.jpg "JosephKramer | Rahi Chun") All of Joseph Kramer’s Web-Links: [SexologicalBodywork.com/Links](https://www.sexologicalbodywork.com/links/)[](https://www.craigcullinane.com/) Homestudy Course in Sexological Bodywork; [YogaofSex.com](https://www.yogaofsex.com/) Joseph’s Sex Education Blog: [EroticMassage.com](https://www.eroticmassage.com/?page_id=3697) Joseph’s Best Of Body Wisdom Newsletter: [Campaign-Archive.com](https://us20.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=bd698b9a3151c27496e562314&id=2440a29dc8) About Our Guest: Joseph Kramer founded two seminal institutions that have produced 1000s of somatic sex educators, sexological bodyworkers and sacred intimates all over the world, namely, The Body Electric School of Massage and Rebirthing, approved to train professionals in California in 1984, and the profession of Sexological Bodywork, approved as a profession by the State of California in 2003. Today there are 7 Sexological Bodywork trainings all over the world, and Body Electric School events, virtual and in-person workshops and trainings all over the US. Before completing massage school and practicing as a massage therapist, Joseph completed his Master of Divinity degree in Berkeley. This was after serving as head of the religion department at the Convent of the Sacred Heart, all-girls Catholic school in NYC and after entering the Jesuit order where he spent ten years studying, teaching and preparing to become a Catholic priest. Although he left the Jesuits before ordination, Joseph found his vocation as a teacher embracing the Jesuit motto, “to be a person for others” – his early work focused on weaving together sexuality and spirituality. ## What You’ll Learn About Sexological Bodywork & Somatic Healing $ How Joseph entered the Jesuit order in 1965 after having savored a practice of “touching aliveness” via long-distance running and solo sex, only to have to abide by the rule of not touching anyone else. $ How breath-work, shiatsu, and acupressure were integral parts of the Body Electric curriculum exploring communication from the tips of a giver’s finger to the receiver’s body. $ How The Body Electric School was founded during a pivotal time in the AIDS crisis, exploring sexual arousal via touch that was not only genital-focussed, but whole-body focussed whilst refraining from ejaculation. $ How the field of Sexological Bodywork, approved in California in 2003, served as another vehicle to teach people how to awaken erotic energy and bring people back to their body. $ How sustained and lucid streams of sexual arousal played a pivotal role in Joseph’s understanding of how to create Body Electric classes & curriculum and the new profession of Sexological Bodywork. $ How prolonged stimulation was cultivated in Body Electric classes to avoid the spread of HIV via semen with everyone agreeing to refrain from ejaculation. $ How Erotic Massage Dancing evolved from touch from giver to receiver – to the receiver guiding their own arousal involving their own hands – to adding breath, sound and movement, rather than being still. (More at [www.Embodiedpornwatching.com](https://www.embodiedpornwatching.com/)) $ How couples who develop unsatisfying sexual habits with each other can often find it easier to create new habits with practitioners with whom they haven’t established any patterns. $ How vital and joyous it is to cultivate and relish solo sex rituals to expand one’s capacity for extraordinary human experiences. ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening** [Body Electric and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Extended lovemaking principles and practices ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-principles-and-practices/) [Rewilding eros and erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. I am deeply honored. Very excited to invite Joseph Kramer to the podcast. Today. In many ways an interview with Joseph should have been the inaugural podcast for something called Organic Sexuality. Joseph Kramer founded. Two seminal institutions that have produced literally thousands of somatic sex educators, sexological body workers, and sacred intimates all over the world. Namely the Body Electric School of Massage and Rebirthing approved to train professionals in California in 1984, and the profession and field of sexological body work which was approved as a profession by the state of California in 2003. So we've just crossed the two decade mark. Today there are seven sexological, body worker body work trainings all over the world. At which three of them, Joseph is on Faculty Now and Body Electric School events, virtual and in-person workshops and trainings all over the United States. Before completing massage school and practicing as a massage therapist and teaching at creating his own massage school, Joseph completed his master of divinity degree at Berkeley. This was after serving as head of the Religion department at the Convent of the Sacred Heart, an all girls Catholic school in New York City, and after entering the Jesuit order where he spent 10 years studying, teaching and preparing to become a Catholic priest. Although he left the Jesuits before ordination, Joseph found his vocation as a teacher embracing the Jesuit motto to be a person for others. Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I'm in awe of, of human capacity and touching. The aliveness that's here and the different forms of aliveness. Let's start with what you just mentioned, the touching, aliveness. As we talked about before we started recording, it is very preliminary to understand the capacity of the states of consciousness that can open up with the intention of touch and the different kinds and quality of touch. When you started your massage school, it sounds like that was like a principle or one of the main things you wanted your students to really embody in their sense eight experience. Could you definitely a little bit About what? What about that capacity for our consciousness and our embodiment to alter and expand through touching, aliveness. Yes. Thank you for this opportunity. I, one thing we're talking about is languaging. How do we name some things and there's, especially when we get into areas of feeling states in the body and sensations. We're at a loss often, and there's a poverty there. I early on read Walt Whitman and one of his, many of his phrases just came into my body. But one of them was the line many people know I sing the Body Electric and the Body Electric. Said something to me there is that's, I felt this vibration in my body. This is how I felt aliveness. And I go, yes, there is this aliveness. And most of my life I've been a long distance runner. Slow, easy, but long distance. And this is like a meditation. And in that running or in my early days of. Solo sex with myself or with partners. I would feel this or just feeling wonderful on any day in my body, but noticing me, I would feel my own. How I am alive and then I got this word, body electric, and I go, yes. It's like an electricity that moves through my system. This gives us this circulation too that it can move, there could be parts of our body that don't have much of this feeling and parts that have more of this feeling. So I. I, when I was 17, I joined the Jesuits, this Roman Catholic religious order, and I was there for 10 years till I was 27, 28, and an amazing education in those years. But one of the first rules we got. When I joined the novitiate, it was two years of silence except one hour in the evening we could speak. This was our formation at the beginning, 1965 and the rule, and if we had to speak during the day, we had to speak Latin. And the rule was. Nolo tore, do not touch, you cannot touch anyone else. That was the main rule. And so going into this, my years as a Jesuit, although of course I touched people, but the bottom line was don't touch. And so this is, I'm sure this is one of the reasons that I left that path. Yes. But. But it's because touch became so important for me and the touch, the electricity of touch. And I remember studying acupressure, not acupuncture, but acupressure, and finding that one, the tip of one of my fingers on somebody. I could just hold it. And start to communicate and feel and amazing things just with one finger. And I love doing this. There are two fingers, two places on the body. So I, when I came to start my school, I go, the obvious name of the school is Body Electric. Yes. And so I named it Body Electric. For that it was just this s aliveness. And part of the school involved breathing. We had breath work classes, and we had classes in people with life threatening illnesses, how to deal with that. We had cl, we had certainly shiatsu, which dealt with finger pressure and rhythms on the body and certainly, or a massage of the body, but. For me, it was passing on this, the amazing qualities of touch and I thought the more that people touch, the more they would notice the different. Qualities, let's just put it that way. And so I have to say to this day, I'm 76, I, when I meet people who are massage therapists, I quiz them because I think these are people who have spent a great deal, especially people who've done this for many years. They spent a lot of time touching what have they learned? What are they communicating? What's, what are their skills? And I feel their hands. The hands get turned on in different ways. So it's this touching, aliveness. And there's one more thing. I've always had trouble focusing attention, and as an adult I found out a DD, it's attention deficit and I have some of this, but when I'm touching I could focus intensely. There was this, oh my God, and I've done. I figure 5,000 sessions. In my life. And I don't remember being upset or worried about distractions when I was doing those sessions. When I'm touching someone, I'm paying attention and I'm, if I'm not paying attention to the. The exact qualities of the touch, I'm paying attention to the awesomeness of just being able to touch. So that, that was, it was like my gift, my way of being in the world was the importance of touch. And so I started as a massage therapist and then went into. Massage school that would foster this. And I had no intention by the way of moving this into sex or sexual touch. I never wanted to be a sex educator. I'm a. An introvert, and that seemed a little too extrovert, but in introvert was this massage. The school was in Oakland and San Francisco was one of the places that AIDS first really hit. And as a. Gay male identified, queer identified male. I go, I know a skill that can be of assistance here because touch does not communicate HIV. So I started to teach with trepidation, I have to say erotic massage classes for gay and bisexual men. And this caught on a lot of. A lot of people came to these classes including I invited people with aids. I wanted, I said, even if you have HIV, you're welcome in these classes. And that meant anybody who came knew that they were in this mix. Right? And out of that, what happened there is I got to start. I got to pay attention. To a different quality of touch, and that is touch of sexual arousal. What is sexual arousal in the body? Both on the genitals, but throughout the body. And that's what I've been exploring for many years. And you mentioned two professions. I just wanna throw it in here. I thought there are people like me whose special gift is touching, and I called, I first named people who had that gift sacred, intimate, who were there with people for their transformation, but through touch and sacred intimates. I developed this during the AIDS era. When there was no cure and so sacred, I, infants were also trained to be there with people as they died. So there were like midwives of the dying. But then as this evolved, lots of people became erotic masseus and touch became very more widespread. I, but illegal in the United States, still illegal to do this. So that's where I pushed and created sexological body work and got the state of California to approve this as a profession in California. But it, but sexological body work was again, another vehicle to teach people to touch people in a variety of ways, but also erotically to awaken. The potentials of, I found sexual arousal as a motivation to pay attention to your body. And we're in this big era, we're in this era of disembodiment where people are more and more their attention is elsewhere. They're in their, the virtual. And so this idea of touching erotically was to help people to come back and to feel their bodies. So that's, and it wasn't necessarily to go the place of tantra, which was to come into your body and to touch another's body and to become. One with that. And I felt there was lots that was happening, but I felt there was a stage before that, that those two bodies coming together would be even better if people had a sense of their own body and what was their own body electric, what was going on their own body, and then came together. The structure of my history. Yeah. It's really it's really fascinating, Joseph. What stands out for me is. During your 10 years of preparing to be a Jesuit priest the withholding of touch I'm really curious whether that heightened your sensitivity and attunement. To touch because it sounds like that is just one of your natural gifts is, and when you talk about how touch for you is a communication between you your sensate focus and the other person's sensate reception that's a perspective and experience of touch that I don't think. A lot of people have that. It is a natural communication, but it actually is. And then to explore the different ways of communicating through touch naturally invites this kind of discovery of all the different ways that touch can communicate from the sensate focus to different states of arousal. It's really great to hear all of that. And also the fact that you were a long distance runner, which, because I, because in my mind I was like how did Joseph develop all of this understanding about breath and how breath infuses the body with sensation and aliveness? And now that makes so much sense. I wanna read something. That I picked up from, I think it was one of your Arctic blogs or somewhere that I think is really important and speaks to so much about your downloads and your body of work, the services that you've been providing. So this is a quote from you. My Body Electric classes were created during states of sustained sexual arousal. Taos erotic massage, the big draw and dozens of other erotic teaching structures came to me during this glorious state. The idea and even the details necessary for creating the new profession of sexological body work were birthed in lucid streams of sexual arousal. For most of my life, I have made important decisions by accessing. My body wisdom in an aroused state. So this speaks to that extraordinary human embodied state that is available to all of us, that I think all people all, embodied human forms would love to access more of if they knew how. And it sounds like the downloads of the how came to you Exactly during these glorious states of sexual arousal. I'm wondering if you could speak to what states of consciousness open up for you when you are in these lucid states, because I concur with you. I get ideas and how to teach and things of that sort during these states, but I've never engaged in a conversation with someone about what actually opens up in your consciousness during these states. So first of all I think if I had to talk, name my profession right now, I'm a somatic sex educator. So the term somatic has come into the culture in the last 20 years as being body-based and. Your question. So how did I get so into my body if I was a Catholic boy who was repressed and all this? And there were two things. One is from age 13, I ran every day probably till 60 years old, and my knees were a little and every day meant 28 days of the month. Not I, and it might be in the, and it would be about an hour or an hour and a half, 10 miles often. So that was one thing, and I felt I had to do this. It was a way of just feeling clear and in my body. So there was, there, and during this time. A lot came through my mind. I just, there were just things that happened and I paid attention. The other thing, the other body-based thing that I did was more edgy. I think edgy for me because as a Catholic boy, masturbation was the sin. And it was a sin that if you don't go to confession and confess this, you can go to hell. And I believe this. Yet, I was so drawn to touch myself and crave this that I would have to say I regularly masturbated regularly and regularly went to confession as a Catholic boy. But the this masturbation was it's, it was a different consciousness. And I have to say, I think. That consciousness was what helped me escape the closed world of being a Catholic and believing all this stuff, even though I went into the Jesuits. So I went into the Jesuits and I knew that I had to stop my habit or my regular masturbation, which I did, but it was. I've written about this a couple places. I remember the last weekend before I entered the Jesuits and I said, I'm gonna masturbate one more time. I know it's a mortal sin and all this, but I'm never gonna ever have sex again. I remember masturbating and saying, I have to, I wanna remember what this feels like. I've, I was doing this whole thing and then, ah. I came and I go, that's it. I'm tomorrow, I'm entering the Jesuits. I'm going out to the seminary. But an hour later I go, you're going to confession later, so you should do one more time and one more time. And that day I just masturbated. I had no intention of continuing do it, but I did many times. 'cause I said, this is the last time. So that, that's just the opening, that this was a place. There was an alternate reality, this state in my body, and I didn't real like running, I just naturally happened upon running and happened upon masturbating. I have to think. And I continued running during my Jesuit years and that was my embodiment. I think that. But I recognized the lack of embodiment from touch and from sexual arousal and having the gift of celibacy, it was called the gift of celibacy. I recognized during those years, I don't think I have the gift of celibacy, like it's not easy. So when I left the Jesuits. It became a time of reconnecting to my arousal and to touch, and it was quite amazing. Now to get to your, what are the qualities of this because it was. A separate thing. It was like a, I would go into another realm and I didn't, Fanta, I've never been somebody to Fantas, I don't fantasize very much, which really guided my sex education. In teaching people, if you're paying attention to your own body rather than going off into some fantasy, it can be a different experience. So let's try that. But I would, I was paying attention and. What I've found is running and sexual stimulation awakens my body in different ways. So there's just as this morning I breathe fast breath, and that awakened my body and it, there's an alertness that comes and it's, it's soil for things to grow out of. And I, I don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I'm allowing, I'm creating a space where other things can happen in my mind, in my brain and my body. But I do know that masturbation as. Especially prolonged where I'm just in a state and often breathing and maintaining and not going higher, not trying to get to orgasm, ejaculation release. It's just the state where things can happen and come to me. And I started doing this, taking notes actually. And then after I. When I got into massage among my friends, I wanted to try arou. I love massage. I love the state of someone else pleasuring me and paying attention to this. And with my intimates, I, we worked with arousal and so when I was aroused and someone's arousing me, I was noticing, and then I think it's just a note. I, it was. It was out of this noticing that it wasn't just sensations, there was ideas that came up and thoughts, and they had a certain, importance. Oh, that was, oh, that's a really good idea. And actually, in my erotic massages, I often had a pad. It was way, a yellow pad and a paper. And if I didn't write it down, I asked my Maeu, stop and write these words down so I would remember. Wow. And write this down. So there were always times of paying attention and I, my best maeu for a year. I remember him saying, I don't like doing this writing. I think you should let go of this and just focus on the sensations in your body. But no, this was another realm that ideas came to me of what I should try and there are visions of, it was like a vision. When I read about the vision quest of Native Americans, I thought, yeah I'm in this state where. Images come to me or ideas come to me. And as I became a teacher, I, some of the things that I was doing, new ideas about what I was doing would come to me. Or if I was working on a client who came to me regularly and he was coming, I'd be in this state and the and idea would come on how to work on his body. Or her body. Or their body. And it was it was, so I don't know the exact qualities, but I do know that I. The best states were where I was quiet in the body. Even though when I ran, I did other things. It was more when I was quieter and the arousal kind of moved around my body. It was streamings of arousal. And things came up. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's so much similarity to what you're speaking about those. Aliveness states of running long distance, the arousal states of erotic energy in the body when you're not chasing, after an orgasm or some set of, some something beyond you. And even the states of psychedelics where there is I don't wanna say. Heightened but different states of aliveness that, that are beyond the normal kind of neural pathway grooves of the way you think. Yes. Yes. As you say, what you shared made me think of the one of the medium articles that you've written. You, you talk about, the most influential and harmful habit of sex sometimes called the governing habit of sex is the mindless pursuit of orgasm and release. This wanting or craving of orgasm release is a dopamine driven neurological process that gives rise and endurance to all of our other. Sexual habits and it is a mindless pursuit. You are not, you're chasing after something that is not your current embodied state. And it does lead to sexual habits that are not ideal. It seems like in your teachings with the Body Electric and sexological body work, it is so much about being present to your state of. Aliveness and embodied, heightened states of arousal and yeah. And what can expand in your realm of experience as a result of that? I told you, I decided when I ran this massage school that I should teach erotic massage for gay and bisexual men. And I started doing this. And in the massage I was a bit worried because. HIV was in semen. And so I thought, oh, I can't have ejaculation. This massage has to be separate from ejaculation Uhhuh. So I came to a thing where it's prolonged stimulation, but not taking people toward ejaculation. And in my individual sessions, when I advertised. Anywhere I advertised non ejaculatory erotic massage. So people who came, there was an agreement, men that they were not going to ejaculate. And this work for women also, they were important, but came into my life in a different way because it wasn't about safe sex education. But anyway, I had this. Non ejaculatory and I started, people had to learn to just savor being in a body, savor, savor the aliveness, and be with the aliveness. And that change what happened in Body Electric. And by the way, for 40 years, body Electric has been teaching that same massage. They still do today without ejaculation. And so I don't know any. Any group, anybody that's done that much. And I've talked to people and what happens when people have this prolonged an hour of arousal in a body electric class, somebody who's had no intention of this, probably never experienced an hour of this type of arousal, they, there's a quiet afterwards where. I love the pause. The pause and paying attention and amazing things happen and I got all kinds of feedback a week later or two weeks later that I've made really good decisions this week. I got out of a relationship that I needed to get out of for six months, or I'm changing my job. So clarity came. From this state to many people. And again, some people said it was quite a spiritual experience. I never, I don't ever say anything. I have my view, my languaging. But they had. They had exceptional human experiences through arousal, so it wasn't just me. The preliminary was there. My sadness about my whole body electric experience was that I was in this period offering this experience and it was having amazing. Results in people, but I didn't have this idea that I want to teach people how to do this separate from coming to this class. I didn't teach it as a practice. And that's and that was my, I think it worked for what it did. But it didn't start a whole movement. Among gay men and others about massage. For some of them it did. I'd say 10%, but people said that was one of the most extraordinary erotic experiences of my life. This erotic massage, and then they would not get another erotic massage. That was great. I had that. Body electric class. What's sexological body work? And what I'm trying now is to teach people through, it's through practice. You can access this regularly with others, with your partners, or with friends, et cetera. But I found that. This prolonged erotic experience. It's our aliveness teaches us, our body teaches us, there's things interoception, it comes from within. And so we just have to pay attention. Yeah. I wonder, two things, one, I did wonder how the evolution happened from. Teaching and guiding the body electric to the field of sexological body work. So you just responded to that because you wanted people to actually go home and have a regular practice of these extended states of e aliveness and arousal. I often wonder whether. Whether these expanded states of arousal start to de arm or melt the resistance to receiving be, because there are greater states. It certainly changes our breathing patterns. It certainly changes our I'm sure our neurochemistry and all sorts of other things that happen chemically. And, yeah I think it is such a gift to, all genders, but especially to like heterosexual couples because there's such a mismatch of arousal patterns between vulva owners and co owners that this really teaches, the cock owners to luxuriate and to revel in these extended states of arousal without ejaculating. I wanna touch upon this term savoring arousal, savoring states of sexual. This is also from, I think from your course savoring states of sexual arousal helps us disrupt our dopamine driven craving orgasm mode, and other limiting sexual arousal habits. It's so bizarre to me that the norm is. Cock owners going for the ejaculation because so much kind. It's like the party ends after that and I've always seen it that way and, rather than circulating it or breathing to expand, which is what we do in the Taos erotic massage. Because just as we're speaking, there are so many states of enhanced, extraordinary, embodied states of arousal and consciousness that are available. That it's almost like a cosmic joke. It's almost like the message was, ill guided and so much of mainstream society is now practicing this Ill guided, go for the ejaculation. And the opposite way of saying it's a wasted potential. Here's the potential that's not being used. That we have. I do think this is a bit more difficult. Say a couple's been together for five years and they go, we're gonna take a tan class and we're gonna learn this. And they learn. Breathing together and looking in each other's eyes and going into these prolonged states, and I think this is a path of learning, but what I've found is that. People in relationships have enormous amounts of habits in the way they relate in their attention and in their bodies, and they're un, they're unaware of the habits and so what? So the, if it's a heterosexual couple, if the man took a class or was with someone that they weren't related to and they were introduced to this, they could, they, they don't have any habits that they have, right? They could learn and be with it and. Their partner could also do the same and then they could come together. But I find, I think it's more difficult. And I heard this over and over in teaching, even in sexological body work where people say, I tried this with my partner and we just couldn't. We have, and it's, there's habitual ways of being and trust and that are not even. Understood. So that's where coming to a professional Yes. Or someone else. Third party. And this is why taking classes, some couples go and they do exercises and practices with other people in the class because they don't have any history. Yeah. There's a lack of, associations or wiring with the person or the pattern and the, there are new neural pathways that can create, be created with a different partner or a different practitioner. I want to ask you, we touched a little bit about. Different breathing strategies because I feel like, again it makes so much sense to me now that knowing you were a long distance runner for so many years, that breath was like an integral part of your state of embodiment and to access states of embodiment breath. It's, I feel like the different techniques of breath and breathing are almost like different musical instruments to bring into a symphony of how the energy can can play the body. And it is such an integral part. I'm sure your experience as a runner informed your understanding of breath work, but it feels like you've also taken it upon yourself to use your body as a lab and try out different breathing techniques. I remember when we did during COVID you. Facilitated kind of these pods forming and you started at it out by leading us in the resonance frequency breathing. Can you speak to your, the evolution of your understanding of breath work as it relates to how it can play different energies in our body? Certainly I've gotten a lot of different understandings of different periods in my life and I'd like to touch on three, but early on it was, the breathing of running is, was really important because it becomes a. It's a second nature and I remember I live near hills the Oakland Hills. And when I'd run from my house and toward the hills, I would start breathing before I got to the hills of faster breath. 'cause I knew I needed. That I don't like being out of breath. That's that idea. So I started learning about breath with running, but I took a training in quote rebirthing breath. Ah, at least one year in 1979. So right as I was going to massage school and I had. I had no real idea that this was gonna hook up necessarily with, I didn't I, a friend of mine was doing it and I said, I do it this class with him, and then I invited my breath teacher to teach breath at Body Electric. And this, but the fast that was this fester circular breathing, so it was no pause at the top or the bottom of the breath. So it's. I see, that breath and it could be slower or faster. And what I found with that breathing is that when I didn't understand, I understood that if I did this, it had I felt a lightness and a different feeling in my body. So it was a. Another a pleasurable state. So when I was creating this erotic massage I thought, let's weave together this breathing. What I didn't understand was if, especially with men, if they were breathing a rhythm. It and that they don't normally breathe. They couldn't go off into fantasy. So as long as you're breathing, you have to stay present. To your body. If you're in this rhythm, and especially at the beginning. So I think the breath kept people present and paid attention. You had to pay attention to your body, that these were things that I just lucked at. I thought, that's amazing. I know. But then I realized that breath is one of the most habitual things we do. There's all kinds of habitual breaths that wouldn't work. Nervous. We breathe a certain way. Our, we don't even, we're not even aware how our breath changes but it's unconscious, most of it. So I real, so it came to me that. If I want to change habits in my body, if I change my breath if I'm, whatever I'm doing, whether it's a slow breath or fast breath, I'm changing my habits and Or that habit of breathing. Yeah. Yes. And that if you change one thing in your body, it's all so connected. It starts shifting and changing a lot. And I'd like to give an example of this in, I've never. Really emphasize slow breath. A lot the residents frequency breathing I've been doing since COVID is about five and a half seconds of an inhale and five and a half seconds of an exhale about in that category. And there's lots of tapes on YouTube for people who like to explore residents frequency, breath. It's quite wonderful. But about two years ago, so I started really looking at diaphragmatic breathing. And the idea of breathing in and the diaphragm on the inhale pushing down, and then the opposite. And I started doing this and playing with it, laying down. And what happened is I wanted to feel the inhale when I pushed down to push down on my belly in the insides my intestines. I wanted to feel that pushing all the way to my pelvic floor. And it took me, I had done this. I'd had some breath training with this years ago, but I never followed up on it. But I did several months of this and I got to that. I could, on the inhale push, and I could even feel a slight opening of my anal sphincter that I would push all the way down and come back and push. So the inhale was a, and I was mostly did this on the floor with my knees up. With my feet flat on the floor and my knees up, and I did this again and again, and I then started to try this with sexual arousal in an erotic massage situation. And what I found is that my breath was moving the inside of my body, and this gave a different. Feeling to arousal. My arousal was playing in this slow breath this, and it came to me that, yes, if the inside of my belly and everything is static and I'm aroused, there's not, there, there's more potential if it's, if there's a lot of movement. And so I really got into this. This breathing. And I went online and found vi videos of actually looking at the, what's going on and what's, and tried to imagine it in my mind so I could see it even more. But that's, that was my of the last two years. That was an exploration of a breath that I now can breathe all the way down and I can stand and do this breath now and push down and feel it all the way to my pelvic floor and then back up. And there's a fluidity that I have as an older man that I didn't have. Before I started this, my belly, there's a fluidity in the bottom half of my torso. So when I read more about the anatomy of this, I know some, but there is, there's supposed to be a movement ability of the intestines and the the different organs. There's this slight movement, but it can get really. Tight and so I think I've loosened up the inside of my body. Yeah. And that feels good. But I'm also, it also is. Positive in sex too. It's, I can feel just a slow breath. I used to do fast breath to move erotic energy and feel erotic pleasure. I usually don't say energy. I say erotic. I say sexual excitement. I usually to move the sexual excitement around moving all the way down into my pelvis and I, I feel a whole, even as I'm telling you this, I'm, my body's lighting up that, yeah. This is some new thing that's happened recently. That's so exciting. I'm happy with, yeah. That I'm really happy with. The other thing I'm recognizing is because there is such a consistency to the 5.5 seconds in 5.5 seconds out, it's if you wanna upregulate and bring more aliveness, you can do the upregulating breath. But then if you wanna prolong the states of that extraordinary aliveness, it seems to me that the resonance breathing will support that because it is so consistent in a very downregulated breathing rhythm. In fact I use. Resident frequency breathing as a diaphragmatic breathing now? I do 5.5 down and I arched my back and do all this and move my pelvis. So there's this pelvic rocking that I do with the resident frequency breathing and the pushing. So I've used that well. Yes. Awesome. There I want to, I wanna ask you about the erotic massage dancing, because it feels to me like the erotic massage dancing is bringing together all of these elements, the touch, aliveness, the breathing the attention, the savoring. How did the erotic massage dancing evolve in the way that you've taught it that you teach it whatever I've done, I've watched and said, what could be a little addition here or there and added, so I've been doing, I have been doing erotic massage for. Many years. Years. And there's a people who I do erotic massage on. Some people are very still, but they're breathing. I always had people breathe. But some moved more. Their body started getting into it and I thought, there's more, I, there's something about this. About not being like a corpse receiving. There is something about being in the stillness, but there's also something about. Waking up your whole body and engaging in your whole body. Where this came from is erotic massage, as I taught it at Body Electric and all was similar to giving a massage a nonsexual massage. And that means a person receives and I give and they have an experience and I thought there's something wrong with this. I want the person. To engage and that they're part of giving themselves this experience and they're guiding the experience even I see they're saying do this and guiding their arousal and being involved, and their hands are involved. I like a massage, dancing. Is that I'm facil, I'm giving a massage guided by the person that I'm touching. And they are, their hands are involved. Their breathing is involved. They can change it. I can give suggestions at the beginning when people haven't had any experience with this. Certainly I'm guiding most of it, but what happens is when people are aroused and they're moving that arousal. The term circulates, but it moves to different parts of the body. And the neurology more, the neurology is turned on. The neuro, the neurons are firing and. Their hands are involved, they're engaged, they're responsible. Then it's, that's more usable in sex with others. I think being still in receiving erotic touch and having a really interesting experience doesn't carry over as much. With the partner. Which is really a dance. So that's where the dancing part came in, I thought. Wait. We don't want just a massage like the stillness of a Swedish massage right on the table. We want somebody who's dancing what's happening in their body, and they're touching, and they're breathing and they're moving. And then this also is available to them in their own solo sex. They can dance and move and breathe. Yes. In fact, a version of the erotic massage dancing, I teach. For people who like to watch porn, right? And I say. Good. I'm, I don't have, my problem with watching porn is that porn grabs your attention and it's in the porn. And if you're masturbating your attention's in the porn and not very much in your body, right? So I say, what if you watch standing up? And if people are standing up they naturally start to move and engage as they're watching. Their attention is still there, but more of their attention has to come back here. And so it's a similar, it's a standing version of this and the experience of watching porn becomes less. Passive. Yeah. Less passive active. And then like I've been used, I've used myself, I haven't. It's wow. And what happens sometimes is there's so much going on in somebody's body, so they let go of the porn for a while and they're in their body. They're like, wait, this is way more interesting to pay attention to this. That doesn't happen when you're lying down or sitting down. It happens. When you're standing, so erotic massage, dancing, either standing. Or sitting, and if I might say I have a free website about teaching that standing it's called embodied porn watching.com and embodied porn watching.com. Okay. And there's videos on there. That show people standing and doing, there's exercises and it's all explained. Yes. Yeah. I just I think there's, one standing up is more akin to our, it's it's just what you're saying, the transferable somatic imprints between being passive on your back. Can only be, it's quite limited when you're engaging with your liver, right? Quite limited. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to the new somatic imprints when you are standing embodied, engaging not only with yourself but there's a relational dynamic as well. And so a relational, both active dynamic where you are the instigator of your experiences, which is really just empowering imprints to, to wire with your. Extraordinary embodied states of arousal. Yes. A story about that, if I might, a short one, and that is, yeah. Somebody I was coaching. I started coaching him when he was a teenager, but I, he came back and I was coaching him in this standing for watching porn and he told me, he says. My girlfriend now says when I wanna have sex, she says, I'd really only like to have sex with you after, on the same, in the af after you've done your I used to call it porn yoga after you've done exercises. While you're watching porn. Or embodied porn watching. But she only won it. She said, you're more alive then after you do that. Yeah. And I, and he was surprised and I said, yeah. Makes sense. It makes total sense. So good. So good. Joseph, I don't know if I ever shared this with you, but my life as a somatic sex educator was deeply influenced by both the body electric and obviously sexological body work. When I was 23, I came across a three day body electric. Workshop where we, it was a rebirthing workshop using extraordinary states of embodied arousal. And it really put me on the path to wanting to know everything about these extraordinary embodied states. So I have always body Electric has always been like a really dear. Dear place in my heart and in my body, and of course becoming a the field of sexological body work has. Allowed so many of us to really honor our purpose in life in a very unique way. And so I'm extremely grateful to all of your teachings and to the service that you've, yeah. To, to your service in the world. Thank you so much. It's a rough job, but somebody has to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Not all things. We're so blessed. We're, so many of us are so blessed and I'm sure there are. Hundreds of people like me who've been, if not thousands, who've been so affected by your teachings and the way you have taken on that Jesuit motto, of being, of service as a teacher and who don't get the chance to interview you and express it to you in person, but know that there are legions of us around the world who are so grateful for all that you've done. Thank you. I will have all of your links on the show notes. I know that recently you've offered a new course. Is it savoring arousal? Is that the new course you launched this year? I've taught individual online courses of different names and I, I don't have any one course, one that I do, I call it sustained sexual arousal, and it's to grab people's attention, they go sustained sexual arousal. But I find, again, focusing on that arousal is a way of waking up and becoming embodied, and we need embodied rituals. Yes, I'm, I feel as we go more and more into the amazing world of virtual and what's happening is really. Conscious people need to have rituals that they can pull back, pull in, and wake up their body in a short, in an hour. Or in an afternoon, once a week where they can remember their body and have access to it. And sex can be part of it. Psychedelics can be part of it. Exercise, but that's what I'm. Breathing. Yes. But I think it's really important for people to, to access the amazing things of the body and sustain sexual arousal is one of those. But Joseph has so many websites and so a lot of free education, a lot of sex education videos that are free on erotic massage.com. Orgasmic yoga.com. We mentioned embodied porn watching yoga of sex.com. And again, I'll have all of these links in the show notes so you can reach out to Joseph. Start a ritual yourself, which I totally concur is really the secret to have some sort of regular practice. So you are. Default embodied state of being has a different buzz and a different hum to it. Which is all available based on these practices that we've been discussing. Breath work focused attention, a savoring touching aliveness. Joseph, it it's such an honor to see you and to have this communal shared experience. I thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for inviting me. This has been delightful. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Erotic Awakening & Energy, Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Embodied Anal Pleasure & Prostate Play (with Dr. Charlie Glickman)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/embodied-anal-pleasure-prostate-play/) **Published:** June 15, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Dr. Charlie Glickman shares a rich tapestry of wisdom gathered from decades in sex education and somatic healing, beginning with a personal back injury that catalyzed his understanding of the power of pelvic bodywork. He explains how shame is stored in the body and how hands-on practices can liberate people from its grip, especially around the often-avoided area of anal pleasure. He reframes anal sex as a deeply embodied, healing experience that must center breath, consent, and emotional safety—dispelling cultural myths of pain and performance. Through stories of healing, shadow play, and prostate empowerment, Charlie advocates for sexual liberation grounded in curiosity, compassion, and somatic awareness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Embodied Anal Pleasure & Prostate Play with Dr. Charlie Glickman # # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore anal pleasure and prostate play through an embodied, educational lens. You’ll learn how anatomy, relaxation, and awareness support safe, expanded pleasure. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/DrCharlieGlickman.jpg "DrCharlieGlickman | Rahi Chun") Charlie’s site: [Make Sex Easy ](https://www.makesexeasy.com/) [The Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure ](https://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-Guide-Prostate-Pleasure/dp/1573449040/) [Divine Union For Lovers Live Retreat](https://divineunionforlovers.mykajabi.com/divineunion-retreat) Charlie Glickman PhD is a [sex & relationship coach](http://www.makesexeasy.com/), a somatic sexuality educator, a sexological bodyworker, and an internationally-acclaimed speaker. He’s been working in this field for over 35 years, and some of his areas of focus include sex & shame, sex-positivity, queer issues, masculinity & gender, communities of erotic affiliation, and many sexual & relationship practices. Charlie is also the co-author of [The Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure: Erotic Exploration for Men and Their Partners](http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-Guide-Prostate-Pleasure/dp/1573449040/). In February 2023, Charlie completed an accountability process. For more info about that or to learn about his coaching offerings, visit [www.makesexeasy.com](http://www.makesexeasy.com/) ## What You’ll Learn About Anal Pleasure & Prostate Play $ **Somatic Healing Beginnings**: Charlie’s journey into hands-on sexuality work began after a debilitating back injury that was relieved by pelvic bodywork from Chester Maynard, highlighting the healing power of touch beyond talk therapy. $ **Embodied Shame Work**: His study of shame led him to recognize its somatic components, prompting him to train in sexological bodywork and explore how shame lives in the body and can be released through touch. $ **Experience Over Theory**: Despite decades in sex education, Charlie discovered that real transformation happens through embodied experiences, not just intellectual discussion. $ **Redefining Anal Sex**: He advocates for a broad and embodied definition of anal sex that includes any erotic anal touch, not just intercourse, focusing on pleasure and relaxation rather than performance. $ **Importance of Breath and Safety**: Relaxation and slow, breath-synced insertion are key to pleasurable anal play; working with the body rather than against it prevents pain and trauma. $ **Receiver Control in Play**: Especially when using toys or strap-ons, the receiver’s control over pacing, depth, and arousal is crucial to creating a safe, enjoyable experience. $ **Toxic Masculinity & Pelvic Armoring**: Cultural conditioning often causes men to dissociate from their pelvic floor, leading to tension, shame, and reduced sensation—something that can be reversed through embodiment. $ **Healing Through Erotic Shadow Play**: Exploring core erotic fantasies can heal childhood wounds when approached with awareness and emotional safety, turning shadow into transformative pleasure. $ **Prostate Pleasure & Misconceptions**: Charlie’s book addresses the myths and stigma around prostate pleasure, especially fears around pain, mess, and sexual identity, providing inclusive, practical guidance. $ **The Anus as Foundational Chakra**: Anatomically and energetically, the anus is the body’s original point of development—central to vitality, embodiment, and somatic awakening. ## Explore more on Men’s Sexuality This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Related Eps on** Men’s Sexual Health, Prostate & Performance [Prostate massage for beginners](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-for-beginners/) [Prostate massage and male pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-male-pleasure/) [Erectile dysfunction and somatic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) [Sexual energy as life force ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: 0:02 Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. By embodying the pleasures of your nature, I'm your host, rahi Chan. I'm a certified somatic, sex educator, sexological body worker and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. Before today's interview with Dr Charlie Glickman, an announcement that Divine Union for Lovers Live, the three-day immersive retreat exploring the intersections of sensual somatics, sexological bodywork with plant medicines for lovers, with Ariel Zabo and myself, is being offered again this August and this September here in Santa Monica, california. For details and registration, visit divineunionforloversmykajabicom. Forward slash divineunion-retreat or simply visit divineunionforloverscom and scroll down to the very bottom of the page for the link. Dr Charlie Glickman has been in the sex education field for over 35 years and, in addition to co-authoring the Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure, he's one of the best sex educators I've had the pleasure to know. Today we explore the ins and outs of anal play just love, that pun, including how to ensure that both lovers have a smile on their faces at the end of lovemaking, ways to eroticize a previous shame or sexual trauma and, of course, his experiences and research, co-authoring one of the very few books on prostate pleasure out there Today. I'm really thrilled to have Charlie Glickman Dr Charlie Glickman onto the podcast. I've known Charlie for I don't know gosh, maybe six or seven years. It's been quite a while and it's been such a pleasure. So Charlie, for over 30 years, has been studying, learning all kinds of sex, explored through his personal experiences, academic study. He has a PhD in in um sex education, his professional trainings, which I've attended and he's a great teacher, uh and by working with literally thousands of people from all walks of life. Charlie's career in sexuality began when he was in college, providing safer sex and queer outreach workshops as a peer educator. He was also the education program manager at Good Vibrations for 16 years. He's coached thousands of individuals and couples, taught hundreds of workshops, trained doctors, therapists, clergy, spoken at conferences across North America and has also trained hundreds of workshops, trained doctors, therapists, clergy, spoken at conferences across North America and has also trained hundreds of sex educators. As I mentioned, he has a PhD in sex education and is the author of this fabulous book, the Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure, which covers everything from prostate orgasms to phases of ejaculation, learning to receive solo and partnered explorations, tips for combining with cock play toys, strap-ons, prostate health and so much more. Rahi: 3:32 Charlie, thanks so much for joining us today. What a pleasure to be here. Thank you, rahi. Yeah, you're so welcome. Great to see you. Okay, so I usually like to start off as a kind of jumping off point by asking like you've been a sex educator since your college years? This is not something that I was aware of until I was preparing for us to talk today, and since then, obviously, you've received a doctorate. You were a somatica coach, a sexological body worker. There's so many trainings and teachings you've been involved with. What were some of the pivotal experiences, either personal or professional, that really influenced the trajectory of who you are now as a somatic sex and intimacy coach? Charlie: 4:21 Well, chronologically, I think, is a good way. There's two in particular that I want to name. One of them is that about I don't know 20 years ago now, I guess I injured my lower back, I herniated the disc between L5 and S1 and everything went into spasm, as often happens with that kind of injury, and I literally couldn't stand upright because of because of the muscle spasm and, uh, I could feel that my pelvic floor was just locked up tight. And uh, I I was living in Oakland, california, at the time, and so I started asking around who do you know who can do body work on this part of the body? Because no body worker I had ever found was willing to touch anywhere that would be covered by a bathing suit, a Speedo maybe, right, right. And I eventually got referred to Chester Maynard, who was one of the people who helped co-create what we now call sexological body work that term didn't even exist at the time and I was working with him and within two sessions of pelvic massage by him, I could suddenly walk up right again. Oh my gosh, he was that good and I had the pleasure of being his client right up until he stopped seeing clients towards the end of his life, and that really highlighted for me the power of touch, especially pelvic massage, and remember this was for medical reasons rather than sexual healing or psychological reasons, but it's still really highlighted for me that here's this part of the body that almost never gets touched outside of sex or medical contexts. And so that was one piece. Charlie: 6:30 And then the other piece that really shifted things for me is that, as you mentioned, my PhD is in adult sex education and I was doing a lot of research and learning about shame. And I was doing a lot of research and learning about shame and I realized that I knew how to talk about shame on a sociocultural level and on a community level and in relationship and on an emotional level. So all of these different scales, different scales. But the piece that I hadn't yet seen anything around was how shame manifests on a somatic level, on an energetic level, not in any real detail. And so I thought to myself well, chester helped me unpack the shame that I was holding in my pelvic floor as part of our work together. So I'll sign up for this training and then I can write the book that has been simmering in my head for the last few years and during the training program. You know you're doing practice sessions. You find friends to practice on, um colleagues, whoever. Charlie: 7:43 And the second time I put my hands on somebody's body with this intention of exploring sexological body work, I realized that I couldn't just take the training, I actually had to do the work as a practitioner so that I could experience how different people's bodies hold shame and how different people move through that healing journey. That was 10 years ago and I'm still unpacking new pieces, although I am getting closer to the book that I actually think I'm going to write about it. But it was, you know, it was these two experiences that I had where I realized that even after being a sex educator for decades at that point it was still all talking about it, and don't get me you so far we get more movement sometimes when we have an experience with a practitioner. So it's in a specific container and I just fell in love with the hands-on work. It lets us do things that you can't access with words. Rahi: 9:07 Oh, absolutely In a huge, huge way. First of all, charlie, what a blessing in disguise that led you to be on the receiving end of a master like Chester Maynard. I mean, those of us who are certified sexological body workers have been exposed to his training videos that are old, but the content is just gold. I mean, he is such a master of pelvic work and anal work, and and and sexual healing and all of it. So how brilliant. And then it's so great that you realize that your body had to experientially have the knowing and go through the process and the wisdom of releasing shame and understanding how your conditioning affected your body, your embodiment, in order to hold space for others. Charlie: 9:59 All of that, and also even though there were people who had been teaching and writing about anal sex Jack Morin, Anal Pleasure and Health, and Carole Queen and Robert Lawrence with Bend Over Boyfriend. It's not that I was breaking new ground, necessarily, but it was the intersection of pelvic floor and the hands-on work that was the game changer for me, and it's just not something that you can access with words sometimes. Rahi: 10:35 Absolutely. And to your point earlier. You know, like I think you know it's so kind of bizarre that when we go to any kind of massage therapist, the areas of the body they avoid, I mean, I feel like it's sending a message, like a subtle message of shame. You know it's like why can't my glutes? You know they're muscular, they pull on my lower back muscles or my upper thigh muscles and you know all the muscles are interconnected but there is such a avoidance of these very core, integral parts of our body. Charlie: 11:06 Yeah, it's true, I used to have a session trade with another sexological body worker and she decided to take the training in massage therapy. She didn't want to become a massage therapist, but she wanted to learn the skills, and so she was practicing them on me. The skills, and so she was practicing them on me, and it was a fascinating experience. You know, after however many sessions we had doing sexological body work, and now all of a sudden she's practicing draping a sheet on me to keep my genitals covered, and and it was such a contrast. Charlie: 11:43 Yeah, and I understand why body workers do that, sure, but it really it was fascinating. Like exactly to what you're saying, rahi, I could feel a contraction in my body, yeah, around this feeling of like, oh, we have to tuck the sheet in, because if your penis is visible, you know a regular body worker could get into trouble. Right, right, right For that, yeah, yeah yeah, and it was such a fascinating thing. Rahi: 12:14 Yeah, yeah, the contrast of cultures so fascinating. So okay, charlie, I want to talk about embodied anal sex with you, sure, I want to talk about embodied anal sex with you, sure. So the question is so, for those listening in our audience, who may be curious or intrigued or wanting to enjoy and explore embodied anal sex, but haven't yet because they don't know you know they're gun shy or they're not sure if their partners are to it or whatever what would you like to impart to them about the experience? Oh, there's so much to say. Charlie: 12:52 There's so much there, okay. So I think the most important thing is that successful anal plan. When I say successful, I'm not measuring it on whether everyone has an orgasm or whatever. I'm measuring it on whether people have a smile at the end of the experience. That's my definition of success when it comes to sex. And so, when it comes to successful anal play, it never has to hurt. But there's this myth that just will not die in this culture that anal sex hurts until you get into it enough that somehow the pain magically transmutes to pleasure. And some people do have that experience. But a lot of people are kind of forcing themselves to do something that hurts in the hope that it will change. Charlie: 13:48 And so what I always tell folks is that it's not a question of stretching the anus open or pushing anything in. It's about learning how to relax your body open. And this is something that's very confusing for people, because that's not what it looks like in porn, and that's for two reasons. One is that in porn they do all of the warmup and they apply the lube before they get in front of the camera, so you never see it. It's kind of like a cooking show where the chef says toss in half a cup of chopped bell pepper and it's just magically there on the counter. Nobody had to wash, chop clean, it's just there. It's magically convenient, right. But the other thing is that people who do porn are sexual athletes. They do this all the time, so it is often easier for them to just dive in without much warmup, which you know you could do. If you had anal sex once or twice a week for a while, you could probably get to that place yourself. But what it creates is this idea that anal sex doesn't need lube, it doesn't need warmup, you can just go for it. Nobody needs to stop and take a breath, um and and. Charlie: 15:11 So what I tell people when they want to explore embodied anal play. The place I always start is breath work. Um, and that's because, uh, because the pelvic floor is a place that we hold a lot of tension and emotion. You know how, when a dog or a cat gets scared and they tuck their tail between their legs, human beings do the same thing. It's just not quite as visible because we don't have tails attached to our tailbones anymore. But there's a reason why people who were stressed out all the time we call them tight asses, or somebody who stresses me out is a pain in the ass, right, um. And so the place that I tell people to start is learning how to relax your entire system, and the best way to do that to start with is with the breath, because when we inhale, our heart rate speeds up and when we exhale, our heart rate slows down, and you can actually measure the difference between those two rates as an indicator of how relaxed your body is feeling. So what I have people do is two minutes of breath work with a long, slow exhalation. So and I'll do it now, just for folks to follow along, I'll do it once, just so folks get a sense of the pacing. Um, but so it's in and it's out, I did it a little audibly so folks could hear it, but you can do it silently if you want to. You can hum, you can tone, but it's that long, slow exhalation that tells your body to slow down. This is something most of us intuitively realize. When I was a kid, if I broke something I broke a glass and one of my parents would come into the kitchen. They would look and they'd go ah right, that long, slow execution because it works. Charlie: 17:24 And then here's the key for partners is, instead of telling your partner hey, sweetie, you seem really tense, why don't you take a couple of deep breaths, what I've done, if I say that is, I've just pointed my finger at you and said you're doing it wrong. What's going to work better is if you say to your partner hey, let's take three breaths together, let's set a timer for two minutes and breathe together. And that does two things. One is I'm not telling you what to do, so there's no blame. And by doing it together, our systems are starting to sync up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're co-regulating. Come back to the breath. Same thing with any kind of insertion, whether it's a finger, a toy, a penis, whatever is. Stop and take a breath, and what I tell people is when the receiver is exhaling and relaxed, that's when you slide in, and you slide in until the bottom of their exhalation and then you hold still while they take another inhale and as they exhale you slide in a little more. Maybe it takes five or six or 10 breaths to get all the way inside, but by doing that you're working with the body rather than trying to make the body do something it doesn't want to do. Charlie: 19:01 And then the third tip I have with this is arousal. Get turned on first. If you're nervous about your first anal play experience being uncomfortable, start off with oral sex. Start off with spanking. Start off with a hot makeout session. I actually say this anytime anyone wants to try anything new in bed is make it the side dish. If you want to try spanking for the first time, start off with oral sex time. Start off with oral sex. Get super turned on and then throw in some spanking. You might always need it to be a side dish, that's okay. You might always need a vibrator on your clitoris or to be stroking your penis while receiving anal penetration Totally fine, totally fine. You might get to a place where you don't need that also, great um, but that's just an experiment at that point. Rahi: 20:04 So it's really all about working with your body yeah, yeah, um, yeah, that's so beautiful and I'm struck by how simple it is and yet how right that is. Yeah, I love your guidance as to the penetration happening on the exhale so slowly after both nervous systems are co-regulated and really down-regulated, and there's so much relaxation in the pelvic bowl. So beautiful, charlie. For our listeners who are same-sex, female or hetero and have never received a strap-on or used a strap-on, would your guidance be any different? Charlie: 20:56 Not really it's. It's the same guidance, the. The difference, though, is that if you're using a dildo whether it's a strap on or you're holding it in your hand um, you don't have nerve endings telling you, as the giver, what's going on, in the way that somebody who's using a penis you know they're getting some biofeedback about what's happening. So if you are using a toy, especially with somebody new, I think it's really important to let the receiver have as much control over the experience as is possible. So that includes depth, pacing, speed, size. One of the things I love about strap-ons is you can start off with something on the slimmer side to get used to it, and then maybe build up to something bigger. Maybe not, but the more control the receiver has over the experience, the more relaxed their system will be, the easier it is, and that goes a long way when you're using toys. Because, yeah, they don't. They don't have nerve endings. I wish they did. Rahi: 22:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating, yeah, you know I um. So, you know, with clients who have never received anal massage, I, you know, I mean especially for my male clients I really encourage really getting in touch with and becoming intimate with these nerves that are like a treasure of sensation and pleasure. Like a treasure of sensation and pleasure. You know, I feel like female. You know, vulva owners have an orifice that can access their intrapelvic nerves, but for cock owners it's really the anal canal and so many people are kind of walking around with kind of like, like, not in touch with, like all of the energy and sensation that is available in the pelvic bowl. And then certainly with female clients who have trauma so that they can't receive intravaginal touch. Intraanal is such a great way to wake up those nerve endings, for the vagina to be ready to receive some kind of palpation. Charlie: 23:16 Yeah, you're absolutely right, and and I do see so many men in this world who are just locked up between their navel and their knees- yeah, it's fascinating. Charlie: 23:29 It's fascinating, it is, and it causes back pain. It causes so much back pain because you're not moving fluidly and it limits your ability to live your life, and it is also accelerated by how much time we spend sitting. Sure, you can see people walking down the sidewalk sometimes where, instead of their feet being parallel to each other, their toes are rotated outwards and they walk kind of like duck feet Right, right. And that is frequently because we spend so much time sitting that the pelvic muscles get tight and it rotates your thighs externally. Yes, and that causes so many problems for biomechanics. Rahi: 24:14 Sure sure, but you know, I also wonder because, in preparation for this interview, I went to your blog posts and your most recent one spoke about the developmental trauma that affects toxic masculinity. And you know, in concert with what you're saying, that, frozen from the belly to the knees, I wonder to what degree it's also this toxic masculine culture where little boys are unconsciously hypervigilant for approval or their survival, and that all gets stored in the pelvic bowl as well. Charlie: 24:50 Sure, well, what's the worst thing? You can call a man or a boy. It fits into three categories either you're a girl or a woman, right, or a pussy, right. That all fits within that. Yeah, you're gay. You'll get called a fag or a homo, or you're a loser, you're a wimp, you're a weakling, which says some real interesting things about sexism and homophobia, because all of these things fit together. Charlie: 25:28 But you're very much on target that if I, as a boy or as a man, if I feel fear, that, like if I move my hips too much, somebody will tell me I walk like a girl, then I'm going to lock all of that down Totally. And not only does that limit my ability to be embodied and receive anal touch and anal pleasure and all of that, but it also locks down cock energy. Yes, because the whole pelvis gets locked down. You, um, renee Brown makes the point that we can't turn off just one emotion. If you try to turn off your sadness or your grief or your anger or your shame, you're limiting your ability to be, to feel happiness as well. And I think the same thing here. How can you lock down your pelvis and then still be embodied in your penis, right? Rahi: 26:19 Right, yeah, yeah, and it's so surprising. Um, well, it, I guess it shouldn't be surprising, but there there are. There is so much armor around people's cocks where they're not feeling as much sensation, um, as they're designed to for sure. Um, I had a question for you and that is like the, the term. So it's not anal sex, it's embodied anal sex, and I love that term so much because there's so much that that communicates the embodiment. You know, like it's not just having sex anally, it's being embodied and and enjoying that, that, so you can be available to all of the sensations and the pleasure. For a lot of people who are not embodied right like as we're describing, a lot of men are cut off from the navel to the knees the breathing to relax, to downregulate the body, getting warmed up, you know, enjoying foreplay beforehand, and I guess the key is to really really go slow so that you can be present and embodied, you know, moment by moment. Charlie: 27:25 Well, yes, and along the way, what emotions are stuck there that are starting to come out? And, in particular, fear and shame are the two that I see there a lot, for lots of different reasons, whether it's painful sexual experiences or sexual assault, or being told that you're bad or whatever it is. Charlie: 27:52 There's all kinds of stuff there, and so what I find is that people moving towards sexual embodiment, and especially anal embodiment, often have these emotions start to come up, and there's a beautiful opportunity there to complete whatever process those feelings need, rather than just being locked down for the rest of your life. But I say that because I I also have spoken with people who have tried to move into this more embodied way of living or feeling, into their pelvic floor and their partners floor, and their partners maybe didn't have the skill to hold the container for that, and this really is one of the reasons why I'm so happy that somatic sex education and sexological body work are becoming more widespread, because we can do more in a couple of hours in a session than can happen between lovers over a period of months. Absolutely Simply because I have no skin in the game right. I have no attachment to your outcome other than I want you to be happy with it. Rahi: 29:11 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, no-transcript. Charlie: 29:42 Yeah, and even those of us who do this work professionally struggle with doing that in our personal lives, for our partners, because when I'm with my partner, I have an attachment to the outcome. I don't have the neutrality that comes with being a practitioner, and I'm not saying that that's impossible, but it does make it more challenging, right? So, yeah, right, yeah, absolutely. There's a lot there. Charlie: 30:13 There is one other thing I wanted to name, though, about embodied anal sex, which is that when I talk about anal sex and I know you, rahir, are on the same page, and I'm guessing most of your listeners are too, but I'm not talkingotic anal touch. So if your girlfriend likes you to tickle around the outside while you're going down on her, that is anal sex in my book. So I just wanted to name that, because, for most people, when they hear the term anal sex, they assume intercourse, and I like to open up all the possibilities. Rahi: 30:57 Yeah, and opening up all the possibilities kind of goes to. You know just the keys that you shared before about. You know the importance of foreplay and relaxation. I mean the foreplay can involve the wide range of the possibilities for anal sex. It can be the fingers, it can be oral, it can be. You know the possibilities for anal sex. It can be the fingers, it can be oral, it can be. Charlie: 31:19 You know so many different things before you know any kind of like genital penetrative anal play comes into the bedroom. Exactly, exactly. And I think it is a particular challenge for men as givers, because we so often get excited and we want to rush to the goal. And you know, I didn't come up with this line. This might have been a Chester line, I forget where I heard it but you will get there faster the slower you go, oh I love that. Rahi: 31:49 I love that. Yeah, one of my colleagues in Europe, suzanne Ruscard. She always says the slower we go, the faster we progress. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Emphasis on the slow. Yeah, awesome, well, charlie. The other topic I wanted to ask you about involves playing with the erotic shadow, and I wanted to, as a jumping off point, I want to hear about what exploring your erotic shadow has opened up for you and your sexuality. How much time you got yeah, well, we've got a long time, but I wanted to start off by asking what is playing with the erotic shadow mean to you, just so our audience can kind of like grok that first. Charlie: 32:36 Sure Well, so I'm going to zoom out a little bit and I want to acknowledge something that Sigmund Freud really got right. My inner 20 year old really resents it when I say this, because when I was 20 years old I was like he's the old white dude with beard, whatever, like we're not going to listen to him. But I got to say Freud and Marx got a lot more right than I was willing to acknowledge when I was 20. And one of the things that Freud got right is that there's often a relationship between our core wounding and our hottest sexual fantasy, and the example I often give this is a real story. Charlie: 33:17 I once had a client many years ago who had grown up in a very religious Catholic family with all of the stereotypical shaming that goes with sex shaming, body shaming, woman shaming Not that that is inherent in Catholicism, but they often go together. And she was in her early 40s and married to her husband, monogamous, and was freaking out because she was having fantasies about group sex, particularly being the focus of a gangbang, and she was panicking does this mean that we should break up? But monogamy, but this, but that. But when we started digging into the emotional foundation of her fantasy. What we discovered is that in the fantasy, every time she orgasms, all of the men stop what they're doing and they clap and they applaud and they tell her how sexy she is and oh, I can't wait till it's my turn. It's not that she wanted to be in a gangbang, she wanted to be celebrated as a sexual woman because that was the healing for her core wound right. And if she had enacted the fantasy without realizing this, maybe it would have worked, but it also could have been a train wreck. Charlie: 34:42 When we've done enough of our healing work, around our shadow, around our wounding, we can play with it erotically and have it be fun. It's kind of like when you have a bruise from working out or doing yard work and it kind of feels good to press the bruise. Or when you're a kid and you lose a tooth and you keep poking the gap with your tongue, even though it hurts Sure, sure a tooth and you keep poking the gap with your tongue, even though it hurts, sure, sure. But when we haven't done enough of our healing work, playing with those wounds in sex just has the risk of re-traumatizing us because it hasn't healed. So what I often suggest to people in terms of playing with the shadow is first, let's identify what the shadow is. What is the piece? For the example I gave? It was shame, particularly sexual shame. So we kind of map it out and we look for the places where there can be healing around that. How do we soften that? Let's talk about your sexual shame and figure out how to redirect it. And when we have done enough of that, we can start playing with it in sex. Charlie: 36:10 And so she started telling her husband like hey, you know, I really want you to be more verbally expressive of how attractive you think I am. You know, I really want you to. You know, when I'm doing dishes after dinner, you know I want you to come up and whisper to me oh yeah, after the kids go to bed, I'm just going to ravish you. So you better get ready, baby, I can't keep my hands off of you and we can play with it there. It's not just that being told by your lover, I can't wait to ravish you with sexy. Charlie: 36:46 I think a lot of people would find that a turn on. But in this particular case it was also the medicine that her shadow needed. Right, you know, and you know, for other people it might show up as um as freedom. You know, one of my, one of my core wound patterns is around autonomy and freedom, and so a lot of my fantasies either center on either I have complete freedom, I can do whatever I want, and everyone I'm with is a full yes, and they're all into it and they're all celebrating me doing whatever. Charlie: 37:25 Or I don't have any choice here. I have to do what my partner tells me to do. I have to be a good boy. I have to be a good whatever. I need to do what you tell me to do. So the way my core wound shows up in my core erotic theme, my fantasy world, is either I have all the freedom, and that is honored and celebrated, or I have no freedom, within the context of consent, but I have no freedom. So I don't need to be challenged by saying no, by taking autonomy and claiming my power. Rahi: 38:02 That's how it shows up for me. Other people out. Charlie: 38:05 There are going to have different things, but the thing that I think is the most important thing in this is that if you play with your core fantasies and you wake up the next morning and you've got a big smile on your face awesome, you're on the right track. But if you wake up the next morning and you feel cranky or irritable or you have some shame feelings going on, celeste and Danielle call that a shame over. It's like a hangover, but emotional. Yes, yes, that might be a sign that you overdid it, you went too deep or too far. Or maybe it's telling you that you like it when your boyfriend calls you this word, but not that word. Right, don't tell me that I'm a, I'm a dirty slut. Tell me I'm a good slut, whatever it is. And so when I talk about playing with the shadow, what I really mean is like, where are the places that this magnifies or or accentuates our erotic connection? Where are the places that maybe need some more healing? Right, right right. Rahi: 39:19 I think that's the real. You know, that could be a fine line and that's really the question here. It's like eroticizing our childhood core wounds can be so sexy because there's already, as you pointed out, an erotic charge there. You know a fantasy, you know, because there's already, as you pointed out, an erotic charge there, you know a fantasy, you know desire to be fulfilled. And I think the question maybe our audience members are wondering is well, have I done enough work on this wound to begin eroticizing it in the bedroom and enjoying it? And that you know what you distinguished as far as the next morning. The gauging is really great. I'm wondering for listeners what are the ways that you recommend people work on their core wound? Let's say someone's listening to this and they realize that they were beaten by their father or something like that, and they have these fantasies of an authoritative, you know, male figure dominating them. How can they feel like they've worked on that, that core wound, enough to start playing with that in the bedroom with their trusted and safe boyfriend? Charlie: 40:28 Yeah, Well, I really wish that there was a way for people to know when we were crossing our boundaries, other than how crappy we feel afterwards. Rahi: 40:41 Yeah. Charlie: 40:41 So it's a lot of like. Rahi: 40:42 It's a lot of trial and error. Charlie: 40:44 It's a lot of trial and error, but, but it's also. Charlie: 40:46 It's also a little bit like um you know when, if, if somebody decides to get into shape and they start going to the gym or taking classes or Pilates or whatever, when you're new to it, you're constantly waking up the next morning like I can't lift my arms above my head. Charlie: 41:05 My ab muscles hurt when I cough. I overdid it yesterday, so now I know how to dial that back. And then what makes it tricky is two months from now, when you're stronger because you've been going to class, you have to increase your workout to stay at that same edge, in that same learning edge. So it really does become this practice in like how do I know how much is just enough and not too much? How do I know when I go to the gym that I can lift a hundred pounds but not 110 pounds? What does that feel like in my body? And I'll acknowledge that when I started working out at the gym, part of how I learned that is, I overdid it and I hurt myself and I had to take two weeks off and go to the chiropractor a bunch of times. Rahi: 42:01 Yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing is is move at a pace that feels safe. Um, constant communication, obviously, but but also like really gauging, like your own kind of nervous system and your next morning response or after play response, and modulate accordingly. Charlie: 42:24 Yeah, and I think something important in that is that overdoing it, being sort of emotionally tender the next day, is not inherently a sign of failure. I think a lot of people have this idea that that means that they screwed up or whatever. It's data collection. The only experiment that's a failure is the one where you don't collect the data. So maybe the data is you know what? Having that third glass of wine made it feel like anal sex was more fun, and I certainly was able to take more than I could before. But I woke up this morning feeling really raw. Was that because I had that third glass of wine? Was it because we overdid it? What would have happened if we'd done three glasses of wine but a smaller dildo? It's all just data collection so that you can figure out your individual puzzle. Rahi: 43:25 Yeah, yeah, sounds great, sounds great. I love that data collection. For those who have not explored, like ceremony work or or um, uh, creating containers, uh, to explore a shadow um there can be. It can be really, really valuable to have that conversation around boundaries and desires and fears and what aftercare is needed, um, and safe words as well, to make sure the container is as safe as possible. Yeah, charlie, I want to ask you about this book. Okay, okay, the Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure. It is the ultimate guide. You guys cover so much material in it. How, like you talked earlier on about the book, that's kind of gestating or marinating in you around shame. How did this manifest? And you know we talked about all kind of the keys with anal sex at the top of the podcast. I'm wondering if we can kind of like add a little bit for prostate owners. Sure. Charlie: 44:33 Totally, totally Well. I always give credit to my co-author, aislinn Amersian, because the book was her idea. Oh, wow, yeah, we were co-workers at Good Vibrations. She was working in the store and I was working in the administrative office and, for folks who aren't familiar, good Vibrations was the first women-friendly, clean, well-lit place to buy sex toys. Every other store that's out there that is clean and you can look at the toys and you can pick them up and turn them on and see how strongly they vibrate are all rooted in the Good Vibrations model. Even if they don't know that that's where they got it. It's amazing in the good vibrations model, even if they don't know that that's where they got it. Charlie: 45:18 But so Aislinn was working one day and there's the G-spot toy section and so of course she grabs the books about the G-spot to put next to the toys. Charlie: 45:24 And then she walked about five feet down the wall and is straightening up the prostate toy section and realized that there weren't any books there, and so she started working on the book and she brought me in about a year later and we wrote it from there and we felt it was really important actually for the book to be written by someone with a prostate and someone who doesn't, because we have different experiences of this. Sure, sure, but yeah, I always have to give her credit for it because it was her idea. But the thing that I found so fascinating about it was we sent out a survey and I think we ended up serve, I think we got about 200 responses from men and partners of men and we asked the question know, what were some of the things that maybe kept you from trying this or do keep you from trying this? And the answer is we got over and over again. Is this gonna hurt? Charlie: 46:29 is this gonna get messy and does this make me gay? Wow, really, yeah. Various ways of asking those questions over and over again. Oh, wow. And so that really helped us, and you can even see in the book we wrote a whole chapter addressing that question about sexual orientation and masculinity and the masculinity that is so wild. Rahi: 47:01 But once again, yeah, is it going to hurt? I guess that's like at the forefront of people's concern and maybe preventing people from really you know exploring their bodies in a really intimate you know, like like responsible way like, like, responsible way. Charlie: 47:19 Yeah, the irony? You're exactly right, rahi, and the irony there is that the men who have received anal touch even if it's not their favorite thing, even if it's not something that they would seek out for themselves, but the men who have are consistently more skillful as givers of anal touch, because you know what it's like when it's happening too fast or the toy is too big or your partner inserted a second finger too soon. Right, right? Rahi: 47:49 I mean, I'm, I'm. I must say, Charlie, like the first time I received um anal penetration it was at a tantric um training. Uh, it was an anal dearmoring, but it made me so much more sensitive to the, how vulnerable it is to be penetrated and I think it made it just brought, like this whole other awareness and consciousness around me as a, as a, as one who penetrates. Yeah. Charlie: 48:17 Yeah, and, and I think I think it does a lot of things actually for for men or, you know, for folks with penises, but especially for cisgender men. You know, you can know intellectually what it means to go slow, but until you've been on the receiving side, what happens with a lot of men is we think we've slowed down from a 10, but we're actually still at a seven and where we need to be is like a three. And on the flip side, I've talked with a lot of, in particular, cisgender women who have said things like wow, I didn't realize how much responsibility comes with this. Or what I really love is when women try a strap on for the first time and then they're like wow, I just got this ab workout. I gotta do my pilates before I can do. Rahi: 49:12 No wonder my boyfriend collapses on me after inter, right, right so it is interesting, like walk a mile in the other person's shoes yeah, and it deepens empathy for both, for both giver receiver, for both parties. Charlie: 49:26 Yeah, I actually was once having that conversation with a woman, a client, and about this it was this mind-opening experience for her. And then I said all right, now imagine that at intervals completely beyond your control, your dildo is going to get soft and just not usable for penetration and and you could see the light bulb click on, it's like all right, I'm never gonna get upset about my husband losing his erection. I even hate that phrase losing his erection. Rahi: 49:59 Totally, totally. You know, yeah, the empathy, the empathy goes really, really deep when you are in the other person's shoes or the other person's yeah, role. Charlie: 50:10 But you know, in the 10 years since the book came out and it's really been that long, 10 years since the book came out, and it's really been that long, which is wild to me I've learned a lot more about the pelvic floor and about the anus. Charlie: 50:24 And here's one that you know, especially with your background in Tantra I know you'll, you'll, you'll connect with this one, Rahi which is that almost all animal life on this planet sperm meets egg and cells start to differ, Cells start to divide, and at first the cells haven't differentiated, they all look the same. Charlie: 50:45 The very first cells that differentiate and start to form the structures that will become an organ later are the anus. And what happens is we've got this little ball of cells and it forms a little ring of the anus and it pooches in and then it becomes a tube and then opens up at the other end and that's the mouth, and so then everything else kind of builds off of that tube that runs down the center of the body. So I say this because, in my view, for people who are interested in Tantra or who are familiar with the chakra system, the anus is the first chakra. It's literally where our bodies started and everything connects back to it. All of the fascia in our body has to connect back to it, because that's the center of the web. Rahi: 51:42 So you know, when we're really talking about these experiences, we're talking about connecting with this very core, beginning part of what it means to be a human animal, Totally totally, yeah, yeah, it is the root of our existence and you know there's so many Taoist and tantric practices that that involve engaging that anal sphincter, you know, with you know, various mudras, various breaths to um, to move the energy, to move the energy to move the sexual energy through the body and so to have a really to have a, a sensitive and responsive and healthy uh anal sphincter that is turned on, that is, you know, open for the energy to flow as freely as it wants. Charlie: 52:31 Uh is is, you know it speaks to our health, our health and our aliveness yeah, and it's why I'm always a little skeptical of anybody who tries to make the case that the anus is in the perineum or it's inside the body. There's an anal phobia that I often see around that, and to me it just doesn't make any sense, right? If these are the first cells in our body that form, how can it not be where we all started? Rahi: 53:05 Totally, that's profound. I didn't know that. Charlie: 53:07 That is awesome. Rahi: 53:08 That is awesome, charlie. Thank you so much. Where can people reach you? And, oh and, what are you up to these days? I mean, besides your practice in Seattle, do you work with people virtually? And yeah, like, how can people like get, get to? Charlie: 53:25 you get to you. What do I do, right? Well, so my website is very easy. It's make sex easycom, or charlie glickmancom will just take you there too. Sex easycom or charlie glickmancom will just take you there too. Um, and I, I work with folks, uh, both in person here in Seattle Washington um, both, you know, ongoing and also for people who are coming into town who want to do maybe an intensive weekend. But I also do a lot of coaching over zoom. Um, you know it, it I was very pleasantly surprised to discover how much somatic work we actually can do over Zoom. Rahi: 54:05 Yeah, I think that was eye-opening. Everyone in the somatic field, I think, were surprised at exactly that during COVID. Charlie: 54:12 Yeah, we were skeptical, although there are definitely some limits to what we can do over Zoom. And as far as what I'm working on now, the last few years I've been concentrating mostly on my coaching practice. This last year, I've been getting back into blogging and my blog is on my website too to blogging and you know, my blog is on my website too, um, but I am also I'm I'm looking at different ways to move back into the teaching space and and in this current moment in, you know, late 2024, I'm sort of assessing where things are now, because there was the shift towards online, but also there's so much sex education information available now. So what do people really need? And so I'm putting this out there, because anybody listening to our conversation today, if you have an inspiration of like, yeah, this is something that needs to be out there, somebody needs to be teaching this, somebody needs to be teaching this. You're welcome to contact me, even if I'm not the right person for it. Rahi: 55:26 I probably know somebody I could pass that suggestion along to Cool Love it. I mean, it goes back to what you had shared during your sex bot training that, like we have to experience all of these things through our own instrument in order to hold space and facilitate for our clients, and that's really. That's awesome. Yeah, charlie, thank you so much. It's always great to see you. Thank you for being so generous with your experiences. And again, charlie's website is makesexeasycom or charlieglickmancom. Charlie: 56:00 Yeah, and thank you, rahi, it's always a pleasure. Rahi: 56:06 How is this episode landing for you in your body right now? Can you attune to the sensations and desires of your anus and, if so, what are the feelings that are bubbling up for you? Are there ways in which you can hold this very precious part of your body with compassion and reverence for any past hurts, judgments or shaming that it's endured, and are there curiosities about the pleasures and joys awaiting exploration here, either solo or with your beloved? Links to Charlie's Make Sex Easy website and his wonderful book are in the show notes. Until next time, take great care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health, Podcasts on Prostate & Pleasure **Tags:** Anal Pleasure, Inspiration, Pleasure Practices, Sacred Sexuality, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, Tantra, Taoism --- ### [Prostate Massage & Male Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-male-pleasure/) **Published:** October 1, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Stine Krage and Asim SacredFire, co-creators of The Prostatic Portal, illuminate how when a safe and sacred space is held for prostate (sacred spot) massage, it can serve as an effective practice for facing and releasing emotional and energetic shadows of the male psyche, an efficient means for increasing blood/Qi/energy flow throughout the pelvis & awakening pleasure innervation, as well as leading to deep wisdoms that come from expanded orgasmic, receptive states of surrendering to our sexual/spiritual nature. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Prostate Massage & Male Pleasure (with Stine Krage & Asim Sacredfire) # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore prostate massage and how it expands male pleasure, sensitivity, and sexual awareness. You’ll learn how the male body can access deeper forms of pleasure beyond conventional patterns. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/TheProstaticPortalpic.jpg "TheProstaticPortalpic | Rahi Chun") [TheProstaticPortal.com](http://theprostaticportal.com/) [Stine Krage’s site: Amosoma](https://amosoma.dk/en/) [Asim SacredFire’s site: SacredFire.NL](https://sacredfire.nl/) About our Guests: Stine’s background includes her experience as a Holistic body therapist, midwife & integral sexologist. She is passionate about supporting life changing transitions for human beings, embracing gender fluidity, transparency, tantra, dearmouring, core integrity, multiorgasmia and free sexual expression. A body therapist specializing in sexual health for all genders, and working with dermouring & healing sexual trauma, birth trauma & prostate health, she facilitates workshops and trainings around Europe. Stine is also trained in Kaula Tantra, ART/Authentic Relating, Rebirthing Breathwork, Acupuncture, TRE, Core Awareness and De Armouring Arts and is based in Denmark and Holland. Asim’s background includes his experience as a Tantrik bodyworker, shamanic practitioner and energetic healer. Educated in Kaula Tantra, Core shamanism, Loomi Loomi massage, he is self taught in energetic healing and Tarot. Asim facilitates sessions, workshops and ceremonies in a blend of tantra, yoga and shamanism, in addition to expertise in de-armouring and energetic & chakra healing channeled through his intuition. Asim works from a base in Holland and Copenhagen. ## What You’ll Learn About Prostate Massage & Male Pleasure $ How somatic psychology, physiology, sexuality and tantra combine in The Prostatic Portal – serving as a holistic and complete exploration of the health, pleasure, and spiritual benefits of prostate massage. $ How surrendering to receiving prostate massage – counter to the goal of doing – can be deeply healing, instructive, and revolutionary for men – transforming new expanses of pleasure, love-making, and relating. $ How avoiding or denying anal pleasure and anal massage can be missing half of the pelvic pleasures available to the body due to the accessibility of pelvic nerves that is primarily available via internal pelvic palpation. $ How prostate massage transforms the tissues that makes up the male prostate holding unintegrated issues and emotions relating to un-birthed dreams, purpose and intentions for prostate-owners. $ How prostate massage increases blood flow, drains toxins, softens muscles & ligaments, shrinks enlarged prostates, and expands pleasure states, but first involves releasing the unintegrated emotional shadows and numbness also held here. $ How the full-body experience of prostate orgasms via vagus nerve engagement, can be different from locally focussed genital orgasms via pudendal nerve engagement, and support separating orgasm from ejaculation. $ How early conditioning about the anus being taboo to touch, dirty, or associated with homophobia can be resolved as one discovers the health, pleasure and spiritual benefits of embodying the prostate. $ How stimulating the inner pelvis can bypass the involuntary ejaculatory response and lead to expanded states of pleasure supporting a shift from goal-oriented sex to orgasmic states of unlimited love-making. $ How holding a safe and sacred space for prostate massage can be a deeply moving, intimate, and transformative experience for the space-holder in witnessing the deepest surrender. ## ## Explore more on Men’s Sexuality This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Related Eps on** Men’s Sexual Health, Prostate & Performance [How somatic healing can transform erectile dysfunction](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) [How prostate massage for beginners can transform health, function and vitality](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-for-beginners/) [How extended lovemaking principles and practices can inform your relationships](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy) [How the Body Electric and sexological bodywork can lead to sexual healing, vitality and wholeness. ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/joseph-kramer-sexological-bodywork/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we explore the prosthetic portal with its co-creators and space holders, a same sacred fire and stina Raj. What if there's a safe and sacred practice for accessing, integrating and releasing emotional and energetic shadow aspects of the male psyche? And by doing so, not only increasing blood qi and energy flow, enlivening the innovation, health, and awareness of the entire pelvis, but also. Leading to expanded realms of pleasure, orgasmic states of surrender and the embodiment of our spiritual sexual nature. Today we explore how the prosthetic portal and prostate massage also called sacred spot massage, can conserve as a most effective and efficient practice for clearing one's shadow and repressed emotions. Deep healing of past traumas and expanding orgasmic states of pleasure and spirit. Today I am super excited to be inviting special guests to the podcast Asim Sacred Fire and Stina from, at the moment they're in Copenhagen, and they have co-created an incredible invitation called the Prosthetic Portal, which is an online event that anyone in the world can experience. But I feel like it's revolutionary because the prostate. And it's incredible gateway to spirituality, to energy, to trauma. Healing to pleasure is so not well known. So I'll just describe what it is here. The prosthetic portal, it's an online tantric training with a very holistic approach to explore and learn about the bliss and the shadows of the prostate. Drawing on the depths of wisdom from somatic psychology, physiology, energy, wisdom. Cultural traditions, including the wisdom of the chakras, the Nazis, Chinese medicine, tantra, just to name a few. It's incredibly holistic and a very complete exploration of the health, pleasure and spiritual benefits of engaging with the prostate. A same and stina. It's so wonderful to see you and to have you on the show. Thank you for inviting us, Rahi. Thank you, RA. Yes. So ST's background is as a midwife. She's a mother of three, a sexologist, a tantric and sexological body work therapist based in Copenhagen. A same sacred fire is a holistic tantric body worker using elements of shamanism, tantra, de arming, energetic and chakra healing, infused through his intuition. And he is based in Holland and Copenhagen as well. I think the first question, just to jump off would be. How did the prosthetic portal birth through the two of you guys? Like how did this come to be? It's so exciting. Yeah, so I think I would like to share that I was working a say tantric MA in Copenhagen and mostly only for men. The place was actually only for men and they offered the prostate massage as well. And I don't know, but all of a sudden all the clients I got was men having trouble ejaculating. And it was quite difficult to help them with this problem. Like premature ejaculation is more easy way of working around it. But this issue, and I looked everywhere. I asked whatever I knew to guide me, why can I learn more about this? And I really didn't find the information I needed, so I became a little bit nerdy. And I have the background as a midwife, so I'm very good with my fingers. It's for my two extra eyes. So really to feel the differences of all these prostates and patterns started to form like, okay, this is an issue. This is an issue. And everything like, like leading back to the prostate. And then oh, we both have a tantric teacher called an Rupa, who has taught us a lot of the tantric knowledge we have today, and he invited us to do online workshops in a place called it Tantric as part of the lockdown and like offering all these teachings online. We were like brainstorming what could be good. And I said I have all this knowledge about the prostate, maybe we could share that. And he thought that was quite a good idea. And then I was thinking about asking Anand if I should do it with him because I was, I'm not owning a prostate. So I also felt like bit of not too much integrity teaching this and not having one. And then Asim got a little bit. Why can't you do it with me? Yeah, sure. For me, we were, we didn't have a relationship that long, so it was also, there was a little bit of hesitation to work together, but I also felt okay, why don't we. Do that together then and see it as an exploration to find out also for ourselves what is the prosthe is about, because what was already sh sharing, there's not much knowledge out there. But by creating the prosthetic portal, we also, we went out to, in the look in the world from, okay, where can we find knowledge and what are the different approaches we can we can use in our, in the prosthetic portal. Yeah, as I was sharing, you guys really did such a deep dive. It really, it is like a PhD thesis, this, all the modules, all the information, the wisdom, really, you guys followed your curiosity and really took it upon yourselves to understand. The wisdom around prostate health from all these different traditions, Indian tradition of the chakra approach, the Chinese approach, like all of these different traditions. And it's fascinating what you've discovered. There's so much complimentary understanding, but you've honed it into one place. It's beautiful. I am very curious. I wanted to ask you, Asim, what your personal journey has been. In discovering. The sacredness of your prostate, because I think there are a lot of listeners who are men or maybe wives or lovers of men who have been curious, who've heard about prostate massage, but maybe haven't really explored it. And, once upon a time I'm wondering whether you or someone who knew about it but didn't really explore it and what has your journey been like? Yeah, I had explored already some, a little bit of anal play, but for me also the prostate was, yeah okay, it is a male organ somewhere, but I don't know where. I had, yeah. Some little experience with prostate massage before we started this project. And for me, discovery of the prostate was really Yeah, an eye-opener of how to experience pleasure because it's, it gives a pleasure which is very different than a penile. Stimulation that you have to go much more into a surrendering. And when you have a pleasure from the surrendering, it's very different and very much more opening up and without a goal. And that really helped me also to few. My pleasure in having sex that after the discovery of that, the possibility to have pleasure in a surrender that it completely changed the way of lovemaking, even if didn't involve anal play or prostate massage. Wow, there's so many beautiful things you're sharing there. What I'm hearing is opening yourself up to this receptive, surrendering state, really getting in touch with your inner feminine as a sexual being and expanding your whole capacity as a sexual being to one of wholeness. Really. I really feel like. Anal play and anal pleasure is so neglected in our society. It's almost like missing half the pelvis, much less prostate pleasure. And so yeah, opening yourself up to the whole embodiment of who you are both energetically. Inner feminine, inner masculine wise, as well as just feeling good. I think it's just a sacred journey that is inviting all prostate holders. Stina, I'm really curious because you shared how you started by giving tantric prostate massage for men. I'm guessing you've witnessed such incredible. Awakenings transformations like discoveries amongst the clients who've never had a prostate massage before. For our listeners who've never had prostate massage before, what really stands out in what you've witnessed in, in holding space for this sacred experience? Before answering that, I was just actually laughing a little bit. When you say half of the pelvis is missing, because that's also sometimes like guys would come, why would I want a finger up my butt? What is it? And it was like you're missing out maybe of half of your sexual potential because like with women, we have an access to get to all these nerve endings and all these pressure spots that you really can reach the same way in a man. So that can be a bit provocative, of course, to say that, but yeah, I had men in their fifties cry with grief, like, why didn't I know about this sooner? This is so different experience for me. Yeah. Like deep transformation and what I also sometimes see, like being a sexology working with men and pleasure is that so many men need to feel pleasure through another's pleasure. Like the indirect root of pleasure is the most common way. For many men to get, feel pressure, and this is surrender. So this is not through somebody else's direct pleasure. So that transformation of actually, they don't have to perform, they don't have to do anything. They just have to surrender and receive. The prostate has such an invitation for that. If you can get past all, the fear, anxiety around it and really try it. So I think that was the, maybe the biggest game changer for the men was to like, wow, I can feel this much pleasure just receiving, without performing, without having an erection. So many men usually won't have an erection during a prostate massage, but they still feel all this pleasure. So it's also do not commute. Do not commute, that there's so much confusion in the moment, and then afterwards it's wow. This is so different. Yeah. Yeah. Profound and beautiful. All those points are really striking to, to hear it because I've experienced prostate massage and pleasure, but I didn't realize how the performance aspect is really not there that a lot of men feel during sexuality. Yeah. My I feel like. Like the way em was speaking about how it made him a better lover. I feel like it helped my body understand how vulnerable it feels to be penetrated and gave me a whole different empathic understanding of the vulnerability of that. I wanna ask both of you, I feel like it's really profound in your training how you impart. The understanding of how the womb tissue or the tissue of the uterus in the womb is the same tissue that makes up the prostate. And so there are all these issues within the male that shows up in the prostate of not birthing dreams, goals, visions, businesses et cetera. Can you speak a little bit about. The significance of how that womb tissue in the female body is similar to the prostate tissue in a man. And the significance of that as far as what kind of trauma or unexpressed energy gets held there. Should I talk earlier? Can you start, so of course I have a bit more the physiological, like scientific approach. Assume is very strong in the more spiritual, energetic part, and then we meet somewhere there. The prostate is actually much more complex organ than uterus. Like it has so many different functions and it's a muscle as the uterus is also a muscle. It's making this contraction to, repel the ejaculate from the prostate. And at the same time it's a filter. It is a chamber, it's a it takes away the toxins. It's mixing all these different fluids, so it has so many. But what I find is the most common thing between the two is the way it's wired to nerves, and especially the vagus nerve. For me, the vagus nerve is the energetic superhighway, the una in like in the more holistic approaches, and it is really what makes energy flow more freely in the whole body, connected to all the organs and things like that. And I think that is very much why men experience this much more deeper orgasm. The full body orgasm is because they're connected. The vagus nerve. So that was shown in studies that the uterus cervix is connected to the vagus nerve. It has still not been proven for men, but I totally believe that these wiring is very similar. Yes, the prostate is the same material as the boom, and it is the, so the prostate is the organ of life in the man, and so everything that is related to life. Or the goals that you have in life, every problem that you have related to that will have its a backlash on that. So if you are, in your twenties and you're studying and you make your goals from, ah, I'm gonna make this in life, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be that. And this is how my future's gonna be. And then later on in life, you have to reevaluate and okay what of those goals did I reach and which ones I didn't? And if you then, if you were very attached to those goals, that's, it's like a trauma. Connected to that organ in the prostate. So all the promises that you have made yourself that you, how you are gonna be if that is not fulfilled. And if you are not, come clean with yourself. And if you can't say okay, I was young, I had those dreams, now I'm older and wiser and I rescheduling my life. I'm just make new goals. And I'm fine with that, and then you can let that go. But yeah if people feel like, oh, I didn't accomplish it, I didn't accomplish it, then that is a trauma that is sticking to the prostate. But there's also that when you're later in life also physiologically there's there are changes. Yeah. And that's also a part of a lot of the health problem in the prostate is that especially. Like the, maybe the 56 years generation, they've been working so hard. Like they really need to be somebody, you need to have a good job. You need to have a big car, you need to push through. You have very stressful lives. And when we have very stressful life and we need all this materialism to feel safe in our life, and maybe it goes away, we lose money, we lose the job, we lose the car. We have so much tightness in our roots. Like we just, we just pull the buttocks together and we keep going. So a lot of prostates are completely suffocating in this pelvic space because it's so tight. The muscle, there's so much, and you also know this from the spinsters and the whole Veda, Amy is so tight. It's the same for men and women that, that it can really help all the toxins in area. There's not enough blood flow, like all these things. And then there's the whole thing, like everything that is stored in our root is usually the deepest, the darkest. The most difficult emotions, experiences, trauma. They live in the pelvic. It's really the root of our existence. And when you Google prostate, the first hit you get is cancer. That's what, that's when people start to relate to their prostate is when it gets sick. And that is, it's far, the forest away from the head, from the mind is the opposite side of the eyes, so it's the darkest corner of the male body and so there is not much attention there and so everything that's wants not to be found will be hidden there. As was Stein was saying, everything that's related to the lower chakras is stored there. So all the issues you have with life, all the issues with money, all the issues with sex, it's all in that region. And if you don't get clear about it, how do you feel about it and be truthful to yourself about it? It'll have an influence on that region. So what you guys are speaking to, there's so many facets of the prostate you're speaking to. There's the physiological, as you said, stina, the filter where it's, it is filtering the toxins, environmental toxins, a same what you're speaking to is, it's it's also filtering the emotional toxins, of a man's life, of a man's dream, of a man's vision and self identity of how he perceives himself and. Yeah, the fact that it is in this very vulnerable place, I'd say the most vulnerable part of the body, deep within the pelvis. And so it is very susceptible to so many of the stresses and influences that you've both shared. It's no surprise that, I think prostate cancers like the number one or number two killer of men, at least here in the States. Yes. I would like to, I, I just love how you are, recognize how you both understand all the different ways the prostate is affected, spiritually, energetically, emotionally, physiologically. It's just so complete, such a complete understanding. I wanna shift gears a little bit and ask you guys. About the prostate massage itself that you facilitate for your clients and for your online training. Something that really stood out to me is how you really hold it as a sacred and safe ritual. There's a lot of intentionality. There's a shared meditation in the beginning. There's such reverence and awareness throughout the whole process. I'd love to know how. Yeah. How your approach to the prostate massage evolved. Was it always so sacred, or did you learn along the way? Because I love how you guys facilitate that. So I guess in the beginning, what I did it, it was like usually at the end of a massage, and it was mostly, a lot of them came for like the drainage, like the blood flow, removing the toxins. So that's more like a physiological. Prostate massage, like massaging the area, softening up all the muscle, the ligaments, holding the prostate, actually relieving a lot of lower back pain doing that, and you're not really making a lot of blood flow. When you massage the pressure, you feel like an intense heat and you feel pulsation in the area quite fast, and that's really helpful. So with men in for enlargement of prostate. Oh yeah, for two, three days after a massage, I don't need to get up pee like three times a night, maybe only one time. So there's like the health benefit of that kind of massage. And then of course then there were the guys that are completely healthy prostate, but just was really curious about, so what is this that talking about the male G spot, I'm really curious to explore. And then that way it was more like the orgasmic thing, but also the reason why we call it the prosthetic portal. Just because, yes, it's a portal to Multiorgasmic experience, but it's also actually you need to sometimes go through a lot of shadows portals, like to face your, basically your ship the emotional, the traumas, all the blockages you have there before you can have access to that multiorgasmic experience. So it had many different assets, different purposes to do the prostate massage. So that's what we try to do. The training is a physiological one, and then we do an energetic one. It's very much about ruining blockages ing the prostate, and then more like the orgasmic one where we really, teach a lot about the pleasures. And then at the end, it's the spiritual one because we put it into the ceremonial context. That really makes it sacred and make it safe for me, the sacredness is to make this really vulnerable space safe for men to go there. So deep. The prostate massage is especially when you do it for the first time, receive it for the first time. It doesn't have to be ple. A lot of the times that's, there's still a lot of tension. There's a lot of things going on that, that are in the way of the pleasure. So first, all the shadows have to be be seen and have to be released before you can get to that pleasure. Sometimes the first time it's not pleasurable for the men, and then it's only a healing, and sometimes it's also just numb. I don't feel you're touching anything right now. I feel like being, that's it. There's simply no connection. So first that the connection has to be established to use the sacredness and rituals is is really about creating a space a safe space where things can happen. And it's not so much about giving a pleasurable massage. It is creating a space where things can happen that need to, needs to happen. Also when I am giving body work, actually my goal is not to give pleasure. What my goal is to give a healing. So then I am using the massage to get. Flood flow to get the energy flow and then that, that what needs to happen can happen for that. I also need a certain sacred space as a container for that. In our sexological body worker training, we were taught that the prostate and the g-spot in, in female bodies is made up of a certain crystalline structure of condensed tissue that's known to hold past traumas. And so what you're speaking to is the necessity of really clearing all of that baggage essentially in order. For the aliveness and the pleasure to be experienced. But it's such a, I always see like whether it's g spot, sacred spot massage with the G spot or the prostate as like the most efficient and effective way of releasing our past trauma and baggage because we know that's, it's designed to hold that and at the same time it's available for such incredible. Orgasmic states that it's just a goldmine that is waiting to be discovered. I wanted to ask you guys could you speak a little bit about prostate massage that includes genital pleasure? Versus prostate massage that is non genital pleasure. Because in the material that I've seen some prostate massage articles that don't really talk about genital pleasure. And in my experience with the clients I've worked with around prostate massage and myself, I find that there's so much more. As you've mentioned, blood flow, energy flow, and more accessibility to both trauma release and pleasure when the nerves that are involved with the genitalia are involved. But I'd love to hear do you see pros and cons to including the genital pleasure with prostate massage or any cons? No, I see I see a pro in a way that you can relax the body by using genital massage because it's like getting the attention a little bit away from. The penetration of the of the swing system and the attention away from the prostate. And in that way there can be some more relaxation because the the key in the prostate massage is relaxation. Even in, in attempts to get there, you have to pass two spinsters of the anal spinsters. And they need to relax. In order to come to that hidden gem, which is the prostate and to get there genital touch can be very useful to, to get the attention a little bit away and also the contraction. That is some pleasure in that way. There comes also a little bit relaxation how I see it very much with this first time you wanna awaken. The prostate it's also linked to the penial nerves, and then that's also linked to the vagus nerve, I believe. So it's very much like the neoplasma theory. So if one pleasure sensation and you combine it with another, the brain start to make new pathways of. So in that sense it can be very good to stimulate what is usually felt less pressure. At the same time as the prostate. It awakens the area a little bit more and then you can go more, only the prostate and then they feel a little bit, and then you can support with a little bit of genital massage pressure. To enhance that feeling. And of course, also, so the pudendal nerve goes all the way, of course to the gland, the head of the penis. But it's also completely covering the whole pum around the sters. So hold this whole area between the testes and the anus, that area has so much pressure potential as well. And it's also actually possible to do an external first time massage through that, that that area. So we actually in the massages, we do, and we teach, we do a lot of pleasure massage in that area. Relaxation, and we actually do a lot of massage of what we call the anal lips. So the sters we really wanna make the, it's so receptive. Before even penetrating. So it's such a big part of the whole ritual of getting to the prostate. It's a really big buildup. And if, when we work with the orga prostate massage, yes, we use the massage, like a throttle, like speeding up the, okay, we wanna have a little bit more sexual energy in it. Let's make a bit more sexual energy. And then I stop with the genital massage and then I move it to the prostate awakens, and then it moves up. So yes, thank you. Be very much used. For many different purposes I'm hearing. Yeah, Asim said, so there's a really huge benefit and support in relaxing the whole pelvic floor relaxing the sphincters, which is really key, increasing the blood flow. And I'm hearing from you Stina, the importance of engaging the nerves through the genitalia that also innervate the anal sphincters and the prostate. There's so many. So many great reasons as well as, creating new neural pathways, associations of pleasure in the body with touch to the anal area where perhaps neural pathways have never been established before. This is so terrific. I do wanna underscore for listeners. This is nothing like a doctor's prostate exam. So I think one of the fears people have, like men especially, is we do not like to go get our prostates examed at doctors. Yeah. And that's why I wanna emphasize like, I love how you guys create a ritual. The safe space is so important and you're really listening to when the body's ready to receive a finger or to be penetrated, and it's really, it is, I forget what term you used. I remember reading something about, I don't know if it was anal sucking or, but you're really letting the prostate and the sphincters guide the process which makes it so safe. Yeah. And also another thing we are always talking to a lot is a lot of guys are actually very worried about the poo. Will it smell, will it be dirty? Will it be like, what is gonna happen? So whenever I give a newbie a prostate massage, I just talk into it right away. So I'm wearing a glove, I'm having a lot of oil on my finger. Nothing's gonna stick. It's not gonna smell like all these things. But it's, it is really a blockage, a mental blockage for many, all these worries. Yeah. Yeah. Because for men, we are taught from early age. Who is dirty. Don't touch it. Don't touch this. Don't touch your ass. Don't and especially, don't put your finger there. Come on. Are you gay? Are you gay? So there are, so from early on that is what is. Hammered into you. So first you have also have to get past those conditionings. Yeah. To go there. We did a group ceremonies and we give sessions one-on-one on with people, but we also do it in a group setting. People were not wanting to come until we made it very clear that you're gonna lay all with the heads towards each other in a star shape with the ass towards the wall. Nobody can see your ass. That is actually making it more comfortable to be able to, okay, then I can, maybe I can do it, then I can relax. The most important thing is for men to, to receive it is that they are relaxed, that they can relax in it. Otherwise they can't they can't receive it. There are so many mental barriers to move through before we even get to the physical conditioning, but I feel like you guys are aware in addressing each of these things. I do wanna mention, like I know when you guys do the online training people. It can be anywhere, and it's in the privacy of their own home, the safety of their own bedroom, and that the cameras, the Zoom camera is turned off so that there's complete privacy whilst you guys are facilitating this incredibly sacred and healing and pleasurable process. I, I wanna mention at this point the prosthetic portal. What is the website where people can go and find out more about either your Zoom online facilitation or in-person facilitations? Yeah, so we actually have the prosthetic portal.com. We also have a Facebook called the Prosthetic Portal, and my private one is am and you are. Asim, sacred Fire nl. So we have all those websites. But it's prosthetic portal.com and then you'll find us. Yes. So I will have all these links in the show notes on the podcast page. I wanna ask you, in my journey of separating orgasm with ejaculation edging is always fun, but I gotta say it was. Pro self prostate massage and the intensity of that experience that helped me understand how to separate ejaculation for or from orgasm. I remember having this incredible like full body orgasm where, I just disappeared. I wanted to ask the role that prostate. Massage plays in helping people separate orgasm from ejaculation. For me, it was really important, but I don't know if that's the case for most men I can speak for myself. That just for me, I didn't find a need to ejaculate. All the time, every time that I had sex. But it really helped me to move from a goal orientated sex experience into a more flowy, enjoyment centered. Sex experience to go more into the surrendering but also to have your lovemaking as a enjoyable time. Instead of that you have this goal that you have to reach in the end. That's really has changed it for me. Yeah. Yeah. So my experience is like very much like when you do the genital massage on the lingham, the penis, you're so much stimulating the, at the end of the P nerve that is eventually gonna send signal to all the muscle helping with contraction and all that. So it's so closely linked and wired, but when you go inside the body. And you stimulate the nerve pathways there, the energy connecting it with pleasure and a lot, we do a lot of breath work well with all this, like really moving the energy, the whole, it's just bypassing the ejaculating response. It's simply not there anymore. They usually, there's no erection. They don't, they do feel pressure if they still have a stimulation of lingham, but still it's just completely bypassed. And that's the eyeopener for, they are like, why am I not having erection? I'm feeling like I've been having like sex forever. Or what? What is this? And then it's just moving the energy up inside the body instead of wanting to shoot the energy out of the body. In the lovemaking of men. A lot of the time it is it is goal orientated, but also when you can have love making that you you don't want to go to your goal because you want to extend the time that you are having your lovemaking. So then you start to. The goal out of it, then you move to a new goal That is to give your partner pleasure, but in that way you keep controlling all the time. And so you're controlling your own pleasure that you don't get too much pleasure, that you can ejaculate. And also you try to control like, oh, what am I doing? Is she liking it? Is she not liking it? So you're in a controlling mode all the time. And with a prostate massage. You cannot, you have to surrender and to have that surrender and then receiving that pleasure without doing, without having to do anything, that is the real eyeopener. As you're sharing this, I can really, see how, there's so many lessons to be learned from the surrender to these orgasmic states in all areas of our life including spiritually. But what I'm hearing is that rather than the kind of the typical or stereotypical male. Directive, goal oriented sexual quest. It is really more about surrendering to orgasmic states of being and an orgasmic way of being really, and a relational love making where there is no goal, there is just continual sharing of these orgasmic lovemaking. It's beautiful. There's so many reasons for us to. Become familiar, become friendly, to really become intimate with our prostates. Just all the reasons in the world, from health to spirituality, to trauma release, to love making, to the lessons that it's waiting to teach us. I'm really curious guys what's your intention and hope in creating the prosthetic portal? And I know it's evolving still but you have the live online trainings. You guys have like on demand requests. I know you've been teaching at festivals all over Europe. What is, what's your hope and intention for this? Prostate revolution. I think we wrote it in the description. It's really right. Like really raising this awareness that prostate is not only related to cancer and diseases and dysfunctions and all this, but, and it's such a vital, just like you're saying, it's such a vital part of men's health, both sexual health, but because it has all these functions, it's such a vital little organ that nobody knows about. So really create more awareness around this and also just, offer a space for men to explore this sacred sexuality, higher connections, alter states of mind and really get past all the homophobic, fears around this. This is preventing it from being explored. And also what what I've seen as a gift that was maybe also had a deep impact on me in the ceremonies we'd be doing is the givers. Usually it has been women, it's also been men, but usually it's been women giving their lover, boyfriend, husband this experience. And they were so honored and they were so moved. To really witness and hold this vulnerable space for their loved one that was really creating such a deep connection between them that was so beautiful to witness. Like really just allow us to be in our feminine and masculine no matter what gender physiological we are. That this is just a normal part of having a healthy sexual experience in life. Yeah. And for me, it's, it is raising the awareness and to have to show and tell other men okay, you have this organ inside you. And be aware of it because both health wise, but also pleasure wise. And also in that region, there are a lot of shadows. And for me that is also a big reason to work with it, is to shine light on those shadow on shadows in order that you can grow. And prostate is really a spot in the middle body, which has so much potential. And when you are ready to look into your demons and to look into your shadows and release them. Then you are also able to go really high spiritually and experience altered stage of consciousness, which I think are only possible because you have released those shadows. Yeah, it's incredible. I'm, I am a little kind of dumbfounded that there isn't more awareness around this incredible gateway, and so I'm so grateful that you guys are holding the space for it. I really think that this. This should be part of the sex education that everyone, that teenagers should receive. It's such, for health reasons, for as you say to look at our shadows to, for empowerment reasons, for pleasure, reasons for love making, like all of it. And it's so integrate. It's so integrates our inner feminine and inner masculine by inviting this experience of surrender and receiving. Guys I am so grateful that you guys have created this, the prosthetic portal.com, and I will have all your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being the sacred gatekeepers to this incredible wisdom and incredible access to our wholeness and our real, integrated embodiment. It's great to see you both and I look forward to seeing you soon. Yes. Thank you. So I thank you looking very much forward to see you Denmark. Notice how this interview is landing in your body right now. What sensations are you aware of? Are there any feelings or curiosities arising about your prostate or perhaps about the prostate of your lover or a close friend if you have a prostate, can you feel into what may be awaiting you? Perhaps unexplored discoveries. Self connection and self intimacy, and a sense of empowerment of your whole being, inviting you to discover what's truly possible. And if you're a lover or close friend of a prostate owner, can you imagine the experience of holding? A safe and sacred place for their deepest and most vulnerable connection for resolving their shadows and touching into new realms of orgasmic bliss and wholeness. Links to the prosthetic portal.com and amma.com and sacred fire.nl stina and asims respective websites. Can be found in the show notes. Here's to the healthy integration of all of who we are and all of what we embody, and to the deepest embodiment of our bodies, most precious and sacred treasures. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health, Podcasts on Prostate & Pleasure --- ### [Prostate Massage for Beginners: Male Pleasure & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-for-beginners/) **Published:** November 13, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Prostate massage and dearmouring is perhaps the least understood process of the body with the greatest potential for healing, empowerment, pleasure and health. Stine & Asim are perhaps the world’s foremost experts in facilitating, teaching and guiding this sacred experience and initiation of releasing past wounds, expanding erotic bliss, and merging the inner feminine and inner masculine into sexual wholeness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Prostate Massage for Beginners: Male Pleasure & Sexual Health # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore prostate massage as a pathway to male pleasure and sexual health with Stine Krage & Asim Sacredfire. You’ll learn how anatomy, awareness, and relaxation support expanded sensation. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Screenshot-2024-11-13-at-1.50.50 PM.png "Screenshot 2024-11-13 at 1.50.50 PM") [TheProstaticPortal.com](http://theprostaticportal.com/) [Stine’s site: Amosoma](https://amosoma.dk/en/) [Asim’s site: SacredFire.NL](https://sacredfire.nl/) About Our Guests: Stine’s background includes her experience as a Holistic body therapist, midwife & integral sexologist. She is passionate about supporting life changing transitions for human beings, embracing gender fluidity, transparency, tantra, dearmouring, core integrity, multiorgasmia and free sexual expression. A body therapist specializing in sexual health for all genders, and working with dermouring & healing sexual trauma, birth trauma & prostate health, she facilitates workshops and trainings around Europe. Stine is also trained in Kaula Tantra, ART/Authentic Relating, Rebirthing Breathwork, Acupuncture, TRE, Core Awareness and De Armouring Arts and is based in Denmark and Holland. Asim’s background includes his experience as a Tantrik bodyworker, shamanic practitioner and energetic healer. Educated in Kaula Tantra, Core shamanism, Loomi Loomi massage, he is self taught in energetic healing and Tarot. Asim facilitates sessions, workshops and ceremonies in a blend of tantra, yoga and shamanism, in addition to expertise in de-armouring and energetic & chakra healing channeled through his intuition. Asim works from a base in Denmark and Holland. ## What You’ll Learn About Prostate Massage & Male Pleasure $ How Stine & Asim have developed a specific breath informed by tantric and vagal theory principles to down-regulate the nervous system and relieve pelvic tension in preparation for prostate massage $ How any hint of performance or goal-orientation during prostate massage can get in the way of surrendering to receive and allow $ How slowing down and engaging in the release of tension from the physiological structures within the pelvis along the route to the prostate is an integral part of the prostatic portal process $ How prostate massage “doesn’t give you what you want, but gives you what you need” $ How anal massage and pelvic dearmouring are necessary preludes for the body to be receptive to making contact with the prostate $ How 1st time prostate and anal massage receivers often realize how very natural and normal it is to feel pleasure and relaxation with prostate massage $ How the online program has safety rails and precautions for both the receiver and giver to consider, in addition to an email and zoom support for inquiries, questions and support $ How the Anusara breath can support pulling erotic energy up and into the body for a deep internal pleasure, rather than releasing outwards – leading to a very different experience of internal orgasm $ How to wire pleasure at the prostate with pleasurable touch at the lingam to train for new imprints of pleasure response at the prostate $ How breaking down the steps and process of providing a safe, trauma-informed experience into digestible segments was the guiding compass in creating The Prostatic Portal online experience ## ## Explore more on Men’s Sexuality This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Related Eps on** Men’s Sexual Health, Prostate & Performance [Prostate massage and male pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-male-pleasure/) [Erectile dysfunction and somatic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) [Sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Extended lovemaking principles and practices ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-principles-and-practices/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Our first interview with Stina Ene. Three years ago in season one, generated the most downloads of any organic sexuality podcast episode, and focused on the incredible benefits of prostate massage. And what guided them to create the pioneering prosthetic portal. Consider this episode a part two, Astina and Asim Return to guide us through the process of a first time prostate massage, both for the receiver and for the giver. Valuable considerations of what to expect and how the sacred process unfolds. Their pioneering work and training now includes an online course for prostate owners and for their partners to explore in the privacy of their own home and in their own time. I am really excited to invite back to the podcast, Stina and em. It's pretty rare to have guests come back to the podcast, but one, it's been three years since our first interview and the first interview that we did on the prosthetic portal, they're pioneering. Work on prostate health Massage and pleasure was the most downloaded episode amongst in the whole podcast series. I think there's close to 3000 downloads, so clearly there is a curiosity and an interest in prostate health, prostate pleasure and prostate massage. So I wanted to have them back on so we could do a part two and build on it. Stina Asim, thank you for joining the podcast again. Oh, I'm so excited that we can go deeper together with you on this topic. Wonderful. I love going deeper. Okay. And we, yeah. Given this is prostate massage, we must go deeper. We could. We must go as deep as we can. Let me, yes. Let me introduce Stina and Asim to our audience. So Stina is a holistic body therapist, a midwife, an integral sexologist specializing in sexual health for all genders, working with de arming and healing sexual trauma, birth trauma, prostate health. She facilitates workshops and trainings all around Europe and is based in Denmark and Holland. A same sacred fire is a tantric body worker, shamanic practitioner, and energetic healer. Educated in koala tantra, core shamanism Lumi, massage, energetic healing and tarot. Asim facilitates sessions, workshops, and ceremonies in a blend of tantra yoga and shamanism. Also in Copenhagen and is originally from the Netherlands. For listeners who have not. Heard the first podcast. Please do again, it was the most popular podcast and we covered a lot of wonderful information. Specifically how the prosthetic portal draws on the depths of wisdom from a wide variety of cultural traditions involving somatic psychology, physiology, sexuality, and tantra. It, it's a really holistic and complete exploration of health pleasure and the spiritual benefits of. This incredible gateway, which is the prostate in the body. We talked about how the tissue of the womb and uterus is the same tissue that makes up the male prostate. And as such, holds unintegrated issues and emotions relating to un birthed dreams, purpose and intentions for prostate owners. We talked about the wide range of health benefits including increasing blood flow, draining toxins, softening muscles and ligaments relieving lower back pain. Everything from alleviating enlarged prostates, which cause frequent ur urination to how to separate orgasm from ejaculation leading to Multiorgasmic states of being. It's no surprise that it was such a popular podcast. I thought today Stina and em, we could focus on really helping the listeners understand what the process is as you guys, I consider the two of you the foremost experts in the world regarding prostate health and massage, and I think it would be helpful for listeners to. Understand, like what it's like to go through a prostate of prostate massage, what to go through the process of prostate massage. So how do you guys prepare clients or students mentally, emotionally and physically to get to prepare for a prostate massage? And what are the most important steps as you guide them through this deep and sacred and profound experience? I think first and foremost, like really we like to call it the fear of the fart talk. Like when we have this the workshops and also with clients actually really making it quite transparent and open exactly what is gonna happen on a very practical level. Because there are so many unspoken fears and anxiety about going to this place, both for the giver, but very much for the receiver. There's so many taboos about having that area of your body touched, especially the anus ho Mobic fear. There can be so many things that can be in the back side of the mind. But it's so vulnerable to share in a group or even being on one-on-one with me. I think the feedback we get in a lot of workshops is wow, you make it so sound so natural and so like safe. Like I really feared all these things and it was just nothing like it to go there with you. Yeah. So especially all the shame that can be around it. The, so we try to bypass that by being very practical and also, and Okay. And if it smells, but it won't smell so. And yeah. So to make it to mention it, and it's take takes away the fears. And the shames that are hidden in in sight. Yeah, the persons try to make some jokes and make it a little bit funny once in a while as well and yeah. Yeah. I think that's so wise because I'm sure people who've never had a finger in their anus or prostate massage. It's so great to just get it all out in the open. You're actually pulling out what they're thinking or what they're afraid of, and the unconscious so that the fears are out, so it doesn't have to be a fear anymore. So things like taboo around the anus fears about being dirty or smelly. Fears about, like you said, homo homophobic fears, all of that. That's great. How, what have you found to be important as far as like Downregulating, the client's nervous system to actually be receptive to that part of the body? 'cause it's such a sensitive, vulnerable part of the body. Yeah, I, we developed a specific breathwork for that. Ah, that is like really like stepping on of knowledge of the tantric world and then, and also the vagal theories. Of like, how can we. Regulate our nervous system because that part of the body is really the one part that really tenses up a lot when we're in the sympathetic. And a lot of these muscle groups that we are indirectly or directly touching is not really like letting go and surrendering in that mode. So however we can support people to more in the esthetic state of the nervous system. Is is something we designed a specific breathwork that we call the anal flower breath. Wow. And, yeah. So that can be used for so many other things than prostate massage, but we just really customize it. Customize, it specifically for prostate massage. That's terrific. It's so interesting because when the body feels, fear or a threat of security, it is the anus that clinches, and here you are entering that very area that's used to clenching. So yeah, it sounds yeah, it sounds tailoring this breath work is really a key to preparing the body for this entry. And then we talk a lot about like the goal orientated experience. Like obviously a lot of people receiving prostate massages are male. And that like the goal orientated approach to things is quite dominant once in a while. So we really speak a lot into, you have to let go of a goal to experience this and having that part of your body letting go and going into surrender. Yeah, that's part of the, that's part of relaxing the whole nervous system. If someone's fixated on a goal, they're gonna be not particularly present to all of the sensations and what's actually happening in their body in the moment. Yeah, and that's also what we see when we do the workshops and also work with client, if there's any hint of performance in it. It doesn't really work. Very well. Because then there's a goal again. So it's really inviting, like a real complete surrender to receiving, which is so unlike a lot of I guess masculine kind of ways of moving in the world. It's really teaching men to really get in touch with their inner feminine, if you will and be in a receptive mode. Yeah. Yeah. Because when and to make it specific to when men ha having sex, they are in contraction. So when men are head, they're thrusting their lingham. And so they, they have this. Contraction. Even though that they, they don't, they're conscious of not having a goal. Still. You are in in you, you keep having control. And what is very special about prostate massage is that you. You don't you surrender that that control to somebody else. And then you can come, only then you can come to, to receive pleasure from the prostate. Otherwise you keep being too contracted. Yeah, it's really fascinating because the male body is so used to being the doer or the penetrator or the thruster, that it's almost like unconscious, like the body's memory is almost so used to doing that, really being entered for a pro, like receiving, being receptive is, can be a whole new experience for the body and for the body's psyche. I, I mentioned this in the first interview. I just, I became so much more sensitive and I think a better lover, but sensitive and empathic to how vulnerable it is to receive after starting after my first prostate massage. So I'd love to, I'd love to take our audience, our listeners, like through a prostate process of prostate massage. The breath work that's tailored to relax the body, to downregulate the nervous system sounds really beautiful. And then. When you first make contact with the external sphincter or the mouth of the anus what is, how do you guide couples or how do you facilitate that process? Because that could be. For a lot of bodies the first time they're receiving a finger in the area. Yeah. I think like when we guide the massage we start even before the anus. Like we guide people into different techniques or releasing tension in the pelvic because we believe that it's not only like working with the prostate is not only working directly on the prostate. It's very much working on all the structures that are holding the prostate. That has a very deep impact on the prostate. So we just like really start with going slowly towards the area and we guide them into this breath and we guide them into slowness. And we guide them into, maybe in this experience you will only work on the anus. You might not even get to the prostate. Like constantly trying to take the goal out of the experience and be present with what is. And that's also we made a quote of ourselves in the online prosthetic portal program, is that the prosthetic portal is not gonna give you what you want. It's gonna give you what you need. So meeting it with that anticipation. Instead of wanting to go somewhere specific. Or have a specific experience. And then, people can either wear gloves or do it with without fingers. Of course, wearing a lot of oil, there's no lubricant in the area. That also gives people sense of safety with the, if you have a lot of oil in your finger and no poo is gonna stick to the finger, like those kind of informations. And then it's really slowing down. We guide them into some very basic symbol yammering techniques because there can be a lot of tension, a lot of pain, discomfort, Amma on the anus itself. So it's really a big part of a prostate massage is actually the anus. So we're not only offering prostate massage, it's actually also like an anal massage in that sense because it's so linked. So what I'm hearing is the prosthetic portal and prostate massage, it's really inviting an exploration of the whole. Pelvis and the anal canal. Yeah. It's like the whole package. Because, and also the root of the lingham, like the root of the lingham is meeting the prostate. In that area. Also, really an area that a lot of men can benefit from having explored, connecting to it, massage relief tension in that area because it also affects prostate sexual performance. So many things. Yeah, that's important to convey to listeners that engaging with the prostate is, it can be a really multi-step experience where you are really moving so slowly from the outside in and releasing any tension from the outside in, from the external sphincter layer by layer. So it's really it's in, it's inviting a deep intimacy with the pelvis itself, but also I don't know. I wanna say rebirthing the pelvis into a new pelvis before getting to the prostate. Yeah. I'm curious, like I'm sure with so many different prostate owners and bodies the process and the experience is so different for everyone. Everyone has different levels of tension and trauma and issues that are held in the area. I'm wondering in the workshops that you guys facilitate and I attended. One in Amsterdam with you guys, and it was so beautifully held and facilitated. What are some of the common experiences that first time prostate massage receivers ex have that surprise them about that part of their body, about their anal sphincters or the anal canal? What's, what are some common discoveries that your clients or students make as they're exploring their anal canal and the issues held there? Yeah, so what the. It's the first time that I receive a anal massage or a prostate massage. Then they they're mostly safe. Oh it's actually quite normal and it's very natural. And so it is again the, all the thoughts. That's they created around it are taken away. And that is, oh, it's very natural to have, and it's natural to have pleasure from that. And so that is very common that they say that. And then the second thing is that yeah, if they read, if they have some experience, then with our approach, then they can that they say, oh, it's so much relaxing. I'm very used of having it more that it's actively engaged. And that's that now this is more real in a relaxed state. And now I can, I'm feeling more instead of holding on. And we can also have people that say, I don't feel a thing. That's also normal. And then that some frustration can come up from that. And then there are also a guy saying, wow, I connected to the whole lineage of men in my family, and all of a sudden I see how things can heal. Like really profound. Wow. Or orgasmic experiencing. There was one guy in a festival, we met him like. Four or five hours after the workshop, and he was like, I'm still shaking, but I'm still shaking like this. So it can go in so many directions. It's so many directions. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm hearing Asim share that a lot of people respond in a way where they realize how normal and how relaxing the experience can be, because I think. Like a lot of men have the experience of going to the doctor and getting their prostates, like a, just a looped finger getting stuck in there. But the way that you guide. Your students and clients with the breath work and going layer by layer and slowing down and being res really receptive and feeling everything. It sounds like there's, there can be a lot more relaxation and normalizing of the experience and the range of responses can go from numbness to extreme pleasure and kind of ecstatic state, so it can really be anything. But how amazing that. The body can be explored in such a safe and gentle way to discover what is actually there to be felt and to be released. I'm curious I know when you created the prosthetic portal online course, there was a lot of. Thought that went into how to support people when they're having like a trauma response. How do you guys hold, how do you guys facilitate that in either a workshop or when you're teaching people when you know the internal anal canal can hold different, various traumas, whether it's sexual violation or fears of security. Like how. How do you teach people to hold space for that kind of material to show up? Yeah, so that's we had some hesitations making the online program because, we could not be present if all of a sudden people go into a full trauma. Release in a session like that. And then is the giver of the prostate capable of holding that space. But it is something that we are addressing in the online clause, and we're talking about the different kind of traumas that can, like the origin of them, how they can show up and how you can handle them. But we also put in some like safety. Pieces into, to the online program where we say, if you have this and this, maybe it's not good to do it. If this comes up, what can you do? Then? If that doesn't work, then do that. And the end of that, that we also keep like an email. Line open. If people really feel lost and need support, then we'll just so love them to reach out for us and then we can guide them. And maybe people need to go eventually to some kind of practitioner that can actually work with them very specifically on this. They need that kind of support. Maybe if something really comes up that they cannot regulate or hold space for themselves. Wow. So you've really thought it through in sharing the possible responses, traumatic responses that can happen and what to do in that case. And it sounds like there's like an email correspondence line that's open so you guys are, can make selves available in case that happens as well. I am, I'm really curious about the surprising. Pleasure that students or clients discover that they didn't know was possible. Like what you mentioned at the festival, like the guy being in an ecstatic state for hours after. I'm guessing a lot of students and clients are very, that's, there's a deep curiosity about what pleasure exists around their prostate. I guess I'm wondering like, for students and clients who are very curious about their pleasure potential, do you guide them in a different way? Are there tips that you share about how to engage with the prostate or the anal canal that supports more of a pleasure exploration for them? Yeah, I think the most important thing is that you you have to be able to move the energy inside into the body. And we work a lot with that, with a different breath work tend to so when we generate energy that we we pull the energy into the body. And when you have a penile orgasm, it is it's very intense and it's like going up the mountain and then when you drop off the peak, then you're having the orgasm and and you're shooting out. Your energy. Yes. And but the, because the prostate is located inside the body, so then the energy is released in the body, and when you then are able to move that energy up instead of out then you can expand. The energy in your body and but also expand the pleasure inside your body. And then you have a very different experience of having an orgasm or having pleasure in Yeah, because it's more inside. And it's not uncommon that someone experience, when you touch their prostate, they feel like a tingling or like in the tip of the penis. So that, that they are connected through different nerve endings and wiring. So you can also use like creating pleasure where it's quite well known. And while you quite feel safe, feeling pressure, usually touching the tip of theum, making some kind of massage on the lingham while massaging the prostate. You can connect the two dots. Neuroplasticity, like the brain is discovering these new pathways of pleasure from being touched in an area you haven't been touched before. So that's also a way to, to guide this. Yeah, because in the, in when the prostate has never been touched, then the body doesn't know what to do with the signals. And it's so then it's very good to, to have some pleasure touch on the lingo or somewhere else that you have that's the body is taught that it's pleasure, that it can be pleasure. Yeah. And most men, they need that to awaken. The pleasure potential. Some men can have it spontaneously, never had experience. That happens too. But quite often they need a bit of support in that way to go in this new path. Yeah, what I'm hearing is because the prostate for most people have never been touched manually or never been touched at all, there's a incredible opportunity to wire pleasure from the lingham with the prostate as it's being touched for the first time. Yes. That's fantastic because we are so Pavlovian, in how we get wired that, that sounds like fun. It sounds, it's just, it's fun and it's just such a cool way to engage with this, sacred portal in the body. I, for me I feel Asim, what you shared about the internal energy because of the, where the prostate is positioned inside of the body, that, that makes so much sense. I. I feel like for, I feel like my exploration of separating ejaculation from orgasm really came from prostate massage self, prostate massage. And I didn't have to necessarily consciously, do a microcosmic orbit. I just, because the prostate's so internal, the energy was being released inside without me really needing to do anything. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious because I know you guys well, let's talk about integration because, it's such a vulnerable, deep part of the human psyche and the prostate owner's body. How do you guide your students or practitioners to facilitate? What are the tips you share in regards to integrating from a prostate massage? Yeah, so we, we have this also like piece or chapter that is called What to Expect after a prostate massage. So we try to tell people what they can expect for the following days after receive some prostate massage or even giving it so it's specific for the one giving, like how to clench yourself. You really had your finger inside this. Sometimes this can be like these little like hotspot of. So much emotion. And not like taking that into your system. So that's one part of it. And then the other part is for the man that they, that can have so many, like the peeing sensations, the peeing flow can change, the poo can change. The emotional letting go of bullshit can change and it can come days after it can really have this afterglow effect. For days. So we try to be very specific what they can happen. And then notice it. And then see, okay, what does that remind me of? What can I learn from this experience? Have somebody to share about afterwards, either the one giving or somebody else like to really, because it comes in layers and it can come and with delayed messages. No, it's I always say from you, your shit is stirred. So all your shit is stirred, so then anything can happen that, that can come up, it's all in the darkness and, but now it's stirred and so it can come to the surface. Yeah. Yeah. Something I really appreciated about our first interview, a same, I remember you really were comment, you were commenting on. How it is the darkest for, it's like the most inner, most dark place of the body where there is so much shadow and so we are stirring, what's in the shadow to come into consciousness and to be revealed and released. But it sounds because you guys have you're so familiar with what can come up in that process that you are letting. Letting people know in the prosthetic portal all of the possible things that can come up and how to take care of themselves during the integration, which is so key and important. Yeah. And then we also offer the Zoom calls like doing, if you're part of the online thing that, that you can come with q and a or come with, get advice or share your experience. So also wanting to offer the support that way. So people have like opportunity to create an email thread or hop onto a Zoom call to support, any questions or integration process or I'm curious about whether there possibilities there are with their prostate experience. Yeah. Something you mentioned Stina, about the giver not taking on the energy of the prostate owner. That's a really important like preparation thing for the giver. I'm wondering, we've been talking about the prostate owner and the receiver's experience. What have you noticed in first time givers and their experience of, entering the body of their beloved or in such a deep and sacred way? Yeah, so I think one thing that is really often like a topic is already like the polarity, if, especially if it is their private romantically partner or lover, that if the roles always have been reversed, the guy being the penetrating the one being more the doer, that now they, they change those roles and that's not. All women that is comfortable with that. And so that could look like when the woman start to give the prosta massage that the man is still very much directing, ah no, touch me here. No. There go a little bit deeper. And they just follow along and then there's no surrender happening. And then that dynamic is just showing up. So that could be one thing that we see. And then it can be about wearing gloves, not gloves. Mostly if it's your private partner, a lot prefer not to wear gloves because. It's so difficult the first time to feel stuff in there, and people get confused when they're wearing a glove, so that's another thing. Then we can also see that the woman is so eager to give her man a prostate orgasm. That then it becomes goal orientated through the giver. Yes. And then we can see the response can be in the man, no, I'm not gonna give you my prostate orgasm for your sake. That kind of thing can happen. So that's really, is really interesting. And then the like, very practical experience like, oh my god, my finger is burning inside. It's so hot, or it's so stinging, or it's so tight and everything is just conducted through that. That area you're touching and it becomes really intense. And it's like people cramping up their shoulders and stop breathing and like it becomes so tense. Yeah. Wow. So the tenseness of the anus just travels up that arm and, yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing how the energy can transfer when one is not conscious and aware of all of what can happen. It's so interesting the way you describe the female wanting to. Elicit an orgasm from the male prostate. It's such a role reversal, isn't it? It's yes. It's yeah, it's so common for that to be the man wanting to give a woman an orgasm and it, I don't know. In some ways, it's probably a good teacher for the man to realize what that feels like. Yeah. Okay, so I, I'm very curious about I know it's, it was a process to create the online course through the prosthetic portal. And so much goes into creating a course, like deciding what information to keep in and what information to to pull out. What were some of the main objectives in how you decided to include the information that you did in the online course? Because I know it was a lot, you had, you guys, it sounds like you, it was a lot of consideration of how to make it as most trauma informed as possible. Yeah. It was mostly about from how how can we guide to, to give a safe prostate orgasm. Yes. And that, that is the, especially because this is the, if you go to the online course, that is the, an introduction or introductionary course. And so it's very much about what to do and about the safety. To and, yeah, less about very specific details because yeah. Then it becomes, it would get lost in it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But I also think like the feedback we get from our workshops is it's so precise, it's so detailed. Like we, we like the feedback we got from people who've done the online course is it's like all of a sudden I could do a press massage. Like just usually you can just, yeah, just stick a finger out the As and look around for it. Like here, like we really try to. Put it into small little blocks, step by step, all the things you need to explore, experience, get confident in before going for the full massage of a prostate. So really dissecting it into small bits. And a very large, the first, very large part of the course is just that we share about it. And then in, in. In pieces. So before we go into it, and even the massage itself we we have like a run through of all the steps before the actually massage is been done. So you've really broken down the process. Yeah. Into digestible easily to understand steps before really inviting, like the experience so people under can understand intellectually, they can prepare their bodies, their emotions, they can understand what can happen. Yeah, it sounds amazing. And okay, so how do people find the course? Where do they go? They go to the prosthetic portal.com. Okay. The prosthetic portal.com. Yeah. And I know there, there's the same sacred fire website and ama, are there links to the prosthetic portal there? We also made like, when, whenever we make stuff together, we call a sacred soma. So there's a website there where you can and that's linked out. So there are four websites you can go to. Wow. Okay. But the main one is the prosthetic portal.com Prosthetically. Yeah. For the online and everything related to the prostate. Yes. Awesome. Guys, I'm so excited that you've created this service. It's ama, it really blows my mind, like it blew my mind the first time. I experienced my own prostate and I just think, if you have a body, you have to really understand how to optimize your health. Release toxins, heal, traumas, increase pleasure. It just advances everything in regards to your understanding of love making and your body. And here you've created this really. Digestible. You've curated all of the wisdom that that you've been researching and facilitating for years into this online portal. I just think it's a tremendous service. Yeah, and I just think we really like to use the tree as a symbol. Whatever happens in the root will show up in the rest of the tree. So whatever work you do on that area. It's so beneficial for it just, creates rebels in the water. Absolutely. So the rest of the being Yeah, that's, but I also just wanna use this opportunity to like, really thank for your, like you, you've been a big support and a guidance for us in this, so I. I just wanna really share that we would be so grateful for your support and your encouragement through this this process. You've been a big part of it. Oh I've really enjoyed it and I've, it's been exciting to watch it evolve. I cannot wait for people to discover it and find it. So it's the prosthetic portal.com and you can get all the information and details there. And you guys have a special going on until the end of November. Yeah. So it's like an opening premier. Big discount and basically save off the what taxes? 25%. So in the November, and then we have plans to already two Zoom calls for everybody signing up in that month, like one in December, one in January. Awesome. And we also record the Zoom calls if people can't make them. Of course. Yeah. So we just really wanna interact with people that, that jumps on this journey because we will learn so much from the questions as well. And yeah. Beautiful, guys, thank you so much for returning and sharing your wisdom and offering this into the world. I'm so excited for everyone to, to, to hop on and check it out. Thank you so much, AHI. Thank you. How is this episode landing for you and your body right now? If you are a prostate owner, are there inquiries you have about what material may be held in and around your prostate waiting to be released? And metabolized, or what potential in the realms of pleasure, health, and embodiment await you. If you're a lover of a prostate owner is touching into this most sacred and vulnerable part of their body and psyche an experience you might want to hold space for. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure. If this conversation supported you, a simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health, Podcasts on Prostate & Pleasure **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Erectile Dysfunction: A Somatic Approach to Healing (Men’s Sexuality)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) **Published:** August 3, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Ron & Pono Stewart are both certified Sexological Bodyworkers and Somatic Sex Educators who work with all genders, yet they have focussed insights and experiences in tailor-designing individual and couple retreats for men/cock-owners. We explore how some of the most common issues involving enjoying healthy erections and ejaculation choice are rooted from our developmental imprints where our own connection and intimacy with our genitalia are formed, and how they each and together hold sacred space for men to embody, empower, and expand the capacity for sacred eros. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Erectile Dysfunction: A Somatic Approach to Healing # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore erectile dysfunction through a somatic lens and how performance-based models miss the deeper root causes with Ron and Pono Stewart. You’ll learn how the body, nervous system, and emotional patterns influence arousal. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/PonoStewart-scaled.jpg "PonoStewart | Rahi Chun") [Skyclad.ca. : ](https://skyclad.ca/)Ron’s site for Cock-Owners [RonStewart.net](RonStewart.net  "RonStewart.net ")[ ](RonStewart.net  "RonStewart.net ") : Sexual Wellness for All Women [EcstaticTouch.net](https://www.ecstatictouch.net/): Pono’s site for all genders [TheBodyElectric.org](https://bodyelectric.org/) [BackToTheBody.org](https://backtothebody.org/) [SexologicalBodyworkers.org](https://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/) About Our Guests: Pono Stewart is a Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker and Somatic Erotic Embodiment Coach who is currently on the Faculty of The Body Electric School and teaches The Wheel of Consent. Pono has also been trained in various forms of yoga, the chakra system and healing arts based on the Native American Lakota traditions, the practice of Focusing (bringing sensate focus to the body’s senses), and Buddy Connection workshops. In his previous career, Pono was a licensed attorney. Ron Stewart is also a Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker and is a co-founder of Back to the Body sensual retreats for women which supports women to learn about their bodies, pleasure and reclaiming erotic confidence. He has lead over 35 retreats since 2011. To his space-holding, Ron also brings his background in Somatic Experiencing, as a yoga teacher, founder of Skyclad, and as one of Canada’s prominent male contemporary dance artists. Together, they host individuals and couples to co-create their own multi-day retreats to create new somatic imprints of their erotic embodiment and re-wire new empowering somatic imprints and neural pathways with their sexual energy on Southern Vancouver Island, on the traditional lands and unceeded territory of the Coast Salish People and Cowichan Tribes in Canada. ## What You’ll Learn About Erectile Dysfunction & Somatic Healing $ How conditioning and influences regarding our sexuality during childhood can stay in the body’s nervous system and cellular memory affecting our adult sexual behaviors and patterns regarding erection dysfunction and premature ejaculation. $ How habitual patterns of self-arousal, self-pleasure and self-shaming can start with potty training and masturbation during infancy – and unless examined can stay habitual long after they are useful or healthy. $ How erections are a parasympathetic response and if there’s anxiety present, will impede proper blood flow and prevent the very experience the body-owner is concerned about. $ How younger men, conditioned via porn to ejaculate with a screen, can have difficulty ejaculating when another live human being is in the room with them. $ How a 1994 study showed that 52% of men over the age of 40 admit to some level of erection dysfunction, and further – 40% of men at 40, 50% of men at 50, 60% at 60 and 70% at 70. $ How men largely “suffer in silence” because they don’t know where to go or how to address their sexual issues – including 44% of men feeling challenged choosing not to share it with their intimate partners out of embarrassment. $ How the 4 pillars of erotic bodywork – touch, sounding, movement and breath – not only expand sexual energy throughout the body, but also counters the masturbation training most boys get from self-pleasuring to ejaculation quickly. $ How teaching clients to edge and expand their arousal scale capacity by engaging the whole body with erotic energy and applying the 4 pillars has the side benefit of releasing a surge of happiness hormones – oxytocin, serotonin, adrenaline – for 2-3 hours rather than 5-6 minutes. $ How generating and circulating sexual energy without ejaculation allows us to engage with the world with a level of erotic vibrational frequency that invites magnetism, intuition, creativity and openness. $ How generating and circulating sexual energy without ejaculation allows us to engage with the world with a level of erotic vibrational frequency that invites magnetism, intuition, creativity and openness. ## ## Explore more on Men’s Sexuality. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Related Eps on** Men’s Sexual Health, Prostate & Performance [How prostate massage and pleasure can transform your embodiment](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-male-pleasure/) [The principles and practices for prostate massage for beginners](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-for-beginners/) [Understanding and cultivating sexual energy as life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/sexual-energy-life-force/) [Extended lovemaking principles and practices for deeper intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-principles-and-practices/) [Understanding nervous system healing and trauma repair](https://rahichun.com/podcast/heal-trauma-regulate-nervous-system/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we welcome Ron and Pono Stewart to the podcast. I've known Pono since our sexological body work training back in 2016, and I've had the pleasure of getting to know his husband Ron. More so in the last few years. Our focus today is on sexual health and wholeness for cock owners, and I could not imagine anyone more qualified or fun to explore this topic with than Ron and Pono. For context, 52% of men over 40 suffer from some degree of erectile dysfunction. In fact, a study conducted in 1994 found that the rates were 40% of men at age 40, 50% at 50, 60% at 60 and 70% at age 70. And yet men largely suffer in silence, not seeking care nor talking about it. The result being that one third of men suffering from ED also suffer from depression because of their ed. Whilst 37% of men have anxiety as a result of their erection challenges impairing the quality of their intimate relationships, what are the best ways to address erectile difficulty? How can we recondition new somatic patterns involving touch, breath sounding and full body erotic circulation rather than conditioned ejaculation? And what role does early childhood conditioning of beliefs and touch imprints play in our adult sexual behaviors and patterns involving erections, ejaculation, touch, and intimacy? I am really delighted to have our wonderful guest today, Ron and Pono Stewart, join us a little background about how I know each of them. So Pono and I were actually in the same certification training for Sexological Body work back in 2016 at the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. And at the time, our motley crew of budding sex bots included a number of body workers, counselors, a few former sex workers, and one attorney. Who was pono. So I always had mad respect for someone like Pono who came from like a, an attorney background and made the switch to becoming a really established sexological body worker. So before his certification as a somatic sex educator, Pono was trained in various forms of yoga, the chakra system, and healing arts based on the Native American Lakota traditions. The practice of focusing, bringing sensate focus to the body senses, which is a lot of what we do as sexological body workers. Buddy connection workshops. And since our certification has taught the wheel of consent and is currently faculty at the Body Electric School and serves as a somatic erotic embodiment, coach Ron who is well known within our community as one of the veterans of sexological body work. He's also a somatic sex educator, sexological body worker, and co-founder. Of Back to the Body Central retreats for women supporting women to learn about their bodies pleasure and reclaiming erotic confidence. And has led over 35 retreats since 2011. He brings his background in somatic experiencing as a yoga teacher, founder of Sky Clad and one of Canada's prominent male contemporary dance artists to his work together. They host private retreats for couples or individuals on Southern Vancouver Island, on the traditional lands and unseated territory of this, of the Coast Salish people and Kohan tribes in Canada. For clients to co-create their own multi-day exploratory retreats, including private, somatic, erotic, embodiment sessions and anything that their clients wish to explore and expand into. I've enjoyed their lovely retreat space. Indeed. It's a wonderful sanctuary up there. You guys have really created an incredible sanctuary. Yeah, we're really yeah. Guys, I'm so thrilled that you guys are on the podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks, Rocky, for having us. It's taken a bit to get us all the three of us together. Yes. With all of your travels and workshops and schedule, but I'm glad we made it work. Okay. I really like to as a jumping off point, invite guests to share a little bit about their personal journeys, to give a con, to provide a context for our listeners. So I would love to ask each of you how did each of your journeys of erotic embodiment lead you to discovering the erotic healing arts that you are now holding space for others? Can you give us a sense of what were the turning points or epiphanies in your own tic. Reclamation or discovery journeys. That sounds big. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds juicy. I'll go first. Awesome. Oh my goodness. How far back do we go? So I grew up as a boy attracted to men in a culture that did not support same sex experiences. So that's, I think, is probably my first wound. The explorations that took place from there were basically what I could get away with, right? So when we're living in a repressed sexual environment, we do what we can to make the discoveries that fit within the safety zone, like when we're not supposed to, but our body and our biology is saying, go for it. We figure out the most safest or minimalist or the way that we're not gonna get caught and and in doing so, we we're forced to explore a very small slice of the erotic pie. And what I know for myself and what I have found with clients is by midlife forties, fifties, that pie starts to taste bland and people want to expand out beyond that and many don't have a context or any sort of way of doing that. As was for me. I think in my forties I started to think that there was something different that could be happening but wasn't happening. And I started to become curious about female bodied folks and my potential relating with them. And so that created a bit of a quandary. I was, I contemporary dance artist at the time and teaching yoga. And I started teaching naked yoga and naked yoga lent itself to naked massage, which was another form of expression that had always been interesting to me. And naked massage meant erotic massage. And in the midst of all of the contemporary dance and naked yoga and doing body work, I started to feel that there was potential, but I didn't have a full sense of the scope of the work that could be done with people doing touch and erotic touch and. With the aim to bring more wholeness into their lives. So I did this course with Joseph Kramer, the first Canadian training in 2011 for psychological body work. And that was a real anchoring point in terms of prior to that doing erotic body work was fun. It was a bit of a, a rebellious, against the repressive culture, et cetera, et cetera. But the training started to really anchor me into the importance and the potential healing and wellness that could show up for people, including myself. Because while I was doing the training, I was actually involved with a woman and that was creating all kinds of curiosities and questions. And so the training really started me looking more seriously at my eroticism and my sexuality. The year after I did the training, I met Pamela, and that was when we started the Back to the Body retreats. Yes. And we just celebrated our, we celebrated our 10 year anniversary on our 12th year because of COVID. But at the same time the study, I don't know if, I think I've mentioned it to you, the study that came. Yes, I've seen it from Widener which shows the benefits on female bodied folks. So the study was, was done on women. But we know to be true that the same effects and goodness that comes from sexological body work for female bodies is also true for male bodied folks as well. Yes. So that was a bit of a scrambling ramble of my coming into erotic experiences and studies for myself. Awesome. Pass it on to the world. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for sharing. Thanks for sharing the context of, what it was like as a boy, because that is where it starts. We're sexual beings from the time, we're in the womb. Really, that context is a really precious and important context to understand that in our repressed society, yeah, there are, there's gonna be slivers of where, permissible or safe, quote unquote expressions of your sexual energy will manifest. And it sounds like the evolution makes so much sense from doing naked yoga to massage, to erotic massage to sexological body work. I think a lot of listeners are gonna be like, oh, I should start offering naked yoga now. It's funny 'cause when you ask my journey. If I don't go right back there, because I think what happens is I recognize in a lot of clients it's the things, the events and the upbringing that happen really early in life that like you say, a sliver, it just jabs it right in there and stays. And when we're thirties, forties, we don't remember that moment, but our body remembers that moment. And so we might be going, oh, I'm experiencing Ed, or I'm experiencing shame whenever I have sex. What's that all about? But they forget the comment or the moment, and it can be in, in an adult context, it might seem oh my God, I'm holding onto that. But as a child. And being delivered this insult or this reprimanding from an adult figure or your peers in the playground that can shut you down. That can shut you down for life. Yes. And 40 years later we forgot about that moment, that seed that created the clamp onto that. I'm never doing that again. Yes. I'm glad you bring that up. I'm really fascinated by initial touch or initial sexual imprints that get stuck within the nervous system and get recalled every time there is a, an arousal or pleasure or something related to that. Absolutely. Pono, can you share about your journey because I'm really, like I mentioned, like I was so blown away when I discovered you were an attorney in our sex bot training and would love to know what were some of the pivotal junctures or events that stand out for you in your. Personal journey of erotic embodiment. Thanks. Yeah. I was a pretty curious child. Erotically, I did a lot of self-pleasuring. It started in the bathtub, in this, the bubble bath. That was where I could lock the door and be alone for the first time. And in hindsight, I think a lot of things really started there and we get these habitual patterns of behavior and we do something and we keep doing it the same way 'cause we get there. And especially with sex, and I think the goal orientation for men towards ejaculation, it's all about getting there. And that's what it was for me as a child too. So what really evolved was the idea that sex could be something then ejaculation, goal oriented. So what I would say my erotic journey. Started was even when I was an attorney. I, I was an unhappy attorney for several decades and in my private time I always explored what I was curious about. So I took chakra classes. I participated with a Native American group a OSH Pay in Northern California. I did sweat lodges and vision quest for years, and that became a huge part of my spiritual practice is really nature based. Wow. And then even studying, focusing, like you said, when I went to sexological body work training, a lot of the language I was hearing reminded me of what I had done in focusing in the early eighties and then during the early HIV epidemic in San Francisco, I was participating with the San Francisco AIDS Foundation in some workshops. And the buddy connection used to ask a lot of, like, when you're having sex, what are you really looking for? Are you really looking to have sex? Are you looking to just get touch from another person? Are you looking to cuddle a lot of things that have come up more recently around ways to be intimate and physical with other people without being sexual. But in essence, I think my, my, my ultimate erotic journey began when I met this man. We met in 20 when did we meet? 2014. And yes we were a hookup on manhunt. So that's how we met. And I was a little curious about how I could potentially have a relationship with someone who was doing this work. So I had a history of unwanted touch in my background is a lot of men, is a lot of gay men. And I had been in talk therapy around resolving some of these issues around sexual assault and unwanted touch and agency over my body that I think was actually a byproduct of having sex at a really young age, perhaps younger than I should have been having sex. I was living in San Francisco and I came to the Bay Area from sec, from Hawaii, and I started looking for a sexological body worker to have sessions with not my husband, not my now husband. So I six different sexological body workers in San Francisco before I found someone I felt comfortable with and that I could work with. And then I had a series of sessions with him, and it was actually at the end of a two hour Taoist erotic massage that I had a epiphany experience. I had lots of things happen in my vision, but what came to me really clearly was, I want to do this. This is what I want to do. And it was a really, one of the clearest, embodied knowings that I'd ever had. I was always pretty wishy-washy. I'm a Libra rising. I'm always weighing things together and not able to make up my mind. But from that moment forward, I was full steam ahead towards, I'm gonna be a sexological body worker. This is what I want to do. So really within six months, I had started the training. Six months later I finished the training. And then I moved to Canada with the goal of moving here, being a sexological body worker, living with Ron and doing some of our own private retreats together, which we did before pandemic. We did six retreats in three years. All men's retreats. Based on the sexual sexological bodywork model. And so I've continued to explore. The full body orgasm has become a thing through the Montauk chias. Multiorgasmic man book. I've read that. There's a side story there, but I actually think that I've been multiorgasmic or full body orgasmic since I was a kid, and it came from long-term masturbation sessions when I was alone and having no refractory period and just continuing and continuing. And then I'd have what felt like a seizure and I didn't know what it was. But it felt like a seizure. Wow. I was shaky. And so I was afraid of it and tamped down and it would periodically over the years happen. When I was engaged to radically with someone and it freaked me out. A couple times it freaked the person I was without and I really didn't know what it was. Now I do, but I can look back and go, oh, that's what those were. And so I've learned to separate ejaculation from orgasm. Because they're not actually completely linked in the body. They happen close to simultaneously, but not quite. So I think I'm getting onto another subject, but I, that's part of the practice is a virtually daily self pleasuring practice. And that brings up a lot of stuff about what is important to us what do we make time for? How do we assess pleasure as a priority in our life? And what keeps us from doing that? Yes. So we bump up against lots of obstacles, but every obstacle is a golden opportunity for learning something about yourself. Because you can figure out like what your belief system is. Tapping into what Ron was saying, we often can think okay, I'm in this situation and I'm having this bodily response. But it doesn't, it's not consistent with what I believe now. And often what you can find is a belief system that was created when you were a child a long time ago with something someone told you, or just what we pick up from osmosis as children when we're trying to fit in with everyone else and be one of the pack. And so we'll have a belief system that, it's not okay to touch your body. It could be as simple as it's not okay to touch your body, don't touch down there. Often. Even when little babies are being diapered, sometimes little boys will touch their penis and they're often slapped. Don't do that. And so we get these messages before we even verbal to not touch ourselves. So it can be a really absolutely helpful exploration to find out where those beliefs came from and then ask yourself, is this what I believe now? Because it's often not. And the shift of that consciousness can change the behavior in your body. Yeah. Super important. Yeah, I mean there's so many kind of critical junctures during the developmental process. Like the way in which our diapers are changed by a parent is the anus shame because it's smelly. Like when we first are caught, quote unquote, or seen self pleasuring. Is it met with respect or is it shamed? I have some clients where they're punished, punished with damnation, like with fear and physical punishment. So these all have powerful imprints. Like you said, pono like unexamined, they will just continue on in our adult behaviors. So I wanted to ask you guys, there's so many juicy things that, that both of you have shared that I wanna continue explain, like there's a million tangents we can go, but I'm wondering how I wanted to focus, I know both of you work with all genders, but I did wanna focus more on male bodies today and because it is, we were talking about the silent shame and how large percentage of our male population do have sexual, what they would consider issues, but just afraid to talk about it. I'm curious, with the clients that you work with the male identified cli male bodied clients that come to you, what is it that they're mostly wanting to discover, explore, expand, or address? It's a little, I would say it's a little all over the map, but at some point there are, there are topics that are re come up a lot and get repeated. I think one of them is just this overarching question of the Peggy Lee, is this all, is that all there is a sense that Yes. After 20 or 30 years of having sex, there's a sense that maybe there's more here and maybe they've looked stuff, maybe theres more here up on the internet or they've read our websites and so they're curious about full body orgasm. Or people come in. Erectile dysfunction is a huge issue with guise as they age because of testosterone, because of stress, because of lifestyle issues. The, an erection is a parasympathetic response in the body, so you need to be relaxed and calm. Yes. If you're stressed out, if you're angry, if you're in some kind of fight or flight for some reason, you will likely not get an erection. And so I think a lot of guys are stuck in that state. And so if they're high stress and high strung, the erection is gonna be hard to come. Guess that was a pun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had a new, I've had a new thing with younger guys, which is that they've grown up with the internet. They've mostly ejaculated and had erotic encounters with themselves alone with a computer screen. And so when they get to an into a room with a partner and there's a real person in the room, their shyness and anxiety around having an erection being aroused, and then they sometimes have trouble ejaculating with another person in the room. So that's been a new issue that's come up for me a couple times recently. That is fascinating. That is fascinating. So it really speaks to how Pavlovian and how conditional our body's response is. If someone's really just used to ejaculating to a screen to have another human being in the room. It's like counterintuitive to me, but it makes so much sense. 'cause that's the wiring that happens. Yeah, absolutely. There, there's, that happens in all aspects of life, but we don't think about them as much. I think we're born as men and we're in our culture. It's just belief that we're ve and we know what we're doing and we should know how to have sex. So the lack of education. And the lack of curiosity and the culture and the lack of openness to talk about things causes more problems I think, because everyone seems to think they're alone. I'm the only person having this problem. And I don't want to talk about, or I'm embarrassed. Yeah. As I shared I was listening to this podcast yesterday and some facts that really stood out. In regards to Ed Erectile dysfunction. Over 50% of men over the age of 40, admit to suffering to some degree of ed. And a study that was published in 1994 found that 40% of men at 40 experienced some level of ed. 50% at 50, 60% at 60, and 70% at 70. And then up to 30% of men suffer from what they would describe as premature ejaculation. The podcast talked about, what you and I spoke about before we started recording, which was the suffering in silence. They do not. Talk about it. Yeah. They don't know where to go to talk about it. Yeah. And a lot of the clinicians their general practitioners have so many other things to look at. Diabetes, like heart pressure, like all this kind of stuff that Ed is just at the bottom of that long list of things and the short amount of time. Yeah. I was shocked that the study showed that 44% who suffer from some level of sexual dysfunction will not tell their partners about it because they're too embarrassed. Yeah. I'm guessing that a lot of we Yeah. Where do we go from here? Exactly. I feel female bodied, just, it's dismal when it comes to sex education in general across our culture. Yes. Across all genders. Yes. But it it feels like, at least every time I walk by a Cosmo magazine, there's some huge headline about. Or multi, how to have multi orgasms or something, maybe there are a few men's magazines that do that, but I feel like there's a lack of conversation amongst men around sexual issues and challenges and just education and know-how. Yeah. And I'm guessing that's a lot of what you guys do. Yes. And I'm gonna make two references. So like you said, like the multifaceted arena of the conversation around sexuality is so diverse. And when we talk about people experiencing Ed. I assume part of that is self-diagnosed, and so then you have to go back. I find with so many clients we've been founding the foundational work to be where the cracks or the flaws are in their belief system, or if, or in their understanding around sexuality and sexual expression. That when you go back to the foundational what does it feel like to feel your boundaries in your body, to feel safe in your body, to feel unsafe in your body, to go back to that base level and then grow out from there to explore. Eroticism gives a more functional foundation and understanding because people could be experiencing erectile dysfunction because they're wanting to have sex, but their religion told them not to have sex. So there's like this internal fight in the body, people could be having erectile difficulties because of, again, going back to when I was saying how our dismal teaching around sex and self pleasuring, which could be a time in your life when you explore solo, what qualities of touch you like, like what, just all the ways that you could explore masturbation and withholding ejaculation so that you are able to hold more erotic energy and go for longer so that partners are more pleased and pleasured. And and having more excitement as well. There's just so many different arenas that you could look at for why ED is happening, or premature ejaculation is happening. I think for most people, when they come to middle age and they go, they're scratching their head going, is this all there is? To be able to go back and do a somatic sex education about what is going on Yes. Inside your body. How is your body and your brain responding to the concept of arousal and eroticism then? Doing self-exploration will often give you the information to help move yourself forward. And therefore when you're relating with other people, that experience will move forward as well. Have I said anything? Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. What I hear you sharing, Ron, is that, because one of my questions was going to be ed is such a prevalent issue, how do you guys support your clients in that? But you've described it beautifully, it sounds like you go to the original foundation, go back to the beginning of what, go back to the beginning of how their arousal and ejaculation response got wired. And it sounds like you teach them about, bringing safety and downregulating their nervous system and the role that plays. 'cause we know when the nervous system is upregulated, it affects, everything. Yeah. And including ejaculation response. Yeah. And then it sounds like you're retraining them as far as. Educating them about touch, sensation, and pleasure in their body. So it's like you're rebooting their whole kind of arousal, erotic intelligence with experience with their body. Yeah. And because it's somatic and people are feeling the difference in their body while it's happening it's easier to build practices so that you can repeat that experience. And as you repeat that experience, that new neural pathway gets a little more easier to go down and the experience becomes easier to repeat. Because I always feel like if you think of eroticism as being like a buffet, and you've got this whole table in front of you, but all you were offered was a very narrow, like the dessert table, right? You were only allowed to access a small part of it because you didn't want to get caught. Eating at the whole buffet and being your enormous, beautiful self. You just stayed with, the bread and butter at the far end of the table. At some point you want to expand out, but how do you open up your perception to what's possible if all you've been fed is this one little experience? And so somatically creates this opportunity to work with a professional, to ask questions to ask questions that would be hard to ask of a partner, if you're trying to build a relationship. It's not so easy to be vulnerable about the learning of sex when you're in your forties or fifties. If you work with a touch professional, you can go through all those blips and blurps and this is embarrassing. But you know what, this is embarrassing. Yeah. Ask and move forward and get the result like harvest the gold. Yeah. And then embarrassing doesn't seem so bad anymore because you've moved through it, you've got a success and things feel expanded and more available possibilities. Yeah. This reminds me of when Pono was sharing about his evolution after you guys met, how he really made it an intention to seek out other sexological body workers. And I'm glad you auditioned six before you found the one that really works for you. And it sounds like Pono did exactly what you're speaking to Ron is, which is, exploring with a professional sexological bodywork to really understand his own erogenous anatomy, his own body's pleasures and preferences, and not rely on you, not only his beloved partner, but also professional body. You know what you're saying? I think your analogy is really great. 'cause we do have a buffet of eroticism and sexual pleasure and I do feel like our society is fixated on the dessert. It's fixated on the money shot in porn, and that's something I never understood. It's like a guy ejaculates and the party's over. Why is this so glorified? So I think that's really key. That is really key because it the, what I call the four pillars of sexological body work are actually most erotic arts are breath, touch, sound and movement. So I always get back to that. It's what I teach in self-pleasuring workshop. It's how I encourage clients to be during a sexological body work session is to be focusing on those things to stimulate and generate erotic energy. Yes. But if we go back to our history of masturbating. W we're probably not breathing. We're probably holding our breath. We might be touching ourselves. What studies or research sorry. Exposed what study or research exposes is that most of us do it the same way. We find a way that feels good sometimes that's in utero. There's images of in utero Yes. Touching themselves in ma and self-pleasure. Yes. So we touch ourselves in the same way that feels good. And we don't move a lot. So I grew up for 15 years with a brother in a bed eight feet away from me in the same bedroom. I'm not making a lot of noise and I'm not making any sounds. I'm not moving. I don't wanna que the bed. So we've taught ourselves if the goal is ejaculation, we can do that in two or three minutes. I can still do that 20 minutes. I don't I could, yeah. Because I trained my body that way for decades. So it's hard to have a five or six or eight minute wink session and then, and do that your whole life and then think you're gonna be engaged in an erotic encounter with someone and all of a sudden last two hours and have this two hour glorious erotic encounter because your body's right pain to do it really quickly. So one of the first things I teach people is just slowing down and slowing down. So we, I teach the erotic arousal scale, which a lot of sex therapists teach for people who are having issues with erectile dysfunction. Zero is no erotic arousal in the body. 10 is an ejaculation. Nine is the point of no return. Eight is the point where people edge. So edging is a practice. Where you practice masturbating, self pleasuring, and really self pleasuring, touching your whole body, moving the energy in your body, but not quite ejaculating. And what you're doing is you're retraining your body to hold and experience more pleasure in the body without actually ejaculating. And doing that process for a long time can help you last longer and longer. But the side benefit of all that is that prolonged periods of sexual arousal really stimulate. Almost all the happiness hormones in your body. Oxytocin, serotonin, adrenaline. And so really, if you're having a five minute arc from, be from zero to 10, you're having five minutes of maybe a little hormonal injection of happiness hormones. But if you can do that for two or three hours, you have a huge injection of happiness hormones. It really affects how your whole body feels inside your skin and how your whole system works. So from the DAUs philosophy, part of the disconnect here is that in Western culture, having that ejaculation as the end all be all, for sex, that's one philosophy. Whereas the DAUs philosophy is that erotic energy is life force energy. It's healing in the body, and our sexual organs are as important as our heart or our lungs or our kidney, and that they all work together. So it's really, yes. Talking about how important the erotic energy is in the body, how important our sexual organs are, and how much stimulating them can actually add to health and longevity. So Taoism, to me, is a way of being, but it's also a methodology of having long health and longevity. And the core of that practice is daily stimulation of erotic energy to stimulate the pharmacy of hormones that we have in our body and we have access to if we learn how to play our body. Yes. Yes. I love that. It is we are inhabiting this pharmacy of chemicals and hormones and it is available to us at any time. And yeah I totally hear how for you and what you're teaching your clients is to make it a lifestyle, to make it a regular thing to inhabit. A state of orgasm rather than going for the ejaculation or the orgasm. Yeah. Yeah. I talk to people about, not being at a state of zero arousal when you walk through the world. So if I start the day and I have coffee and I have my news feed and I have my Facebook feed within an hour, I'm in a pretty bad mood. I'm just not feeling very good about the world. And if I get up instead and I have some water and I do some self-pleasuring and some meditation, and I do something to really stimulate those happiness hormones in my body, and then with that frame of mind, frame of body frame of being, I go out into the world I'm just happier. I can manage, yes. Any other things that happen and I can manage listening to the news at four in the afternoon, but not seven in the morning. Yeah. It's really bizarre, I think, how we've compartmentalized sexuality as separate from the rest of our lives. And what I'm hearing you guys in your conversation and hearing about your lifestyle is really honoring it as the life force energy that we bring to all of our lives. And that's certainly been a process for me. So when I talk about like my history of attorney days. My erotic life was completely compartmentalized. My work life was here. My home life was here. My erotic life was actually somewhere else. So I actually personally had a long-term history of going to get erotic massage as a way of now, in hindsight, I look at it as a way of being, being erotic, feeling in my erotic body, but it was somewhere I went to do that and it was time limited. And it was contained. Yes. And it didn't go outside of that containment. Yes. So it was really segmented. And honestly, I think that gay men, gay boys. Learn to do that. I actually think it's where I learned to lie. I couldn't tell people that I was attracted to boys in the fifth grade. I couldn't tell anyone. I knew it was wrong. I knew I wasn't supposed to feel that way, but I wanted to do stuff. I had hormones raging. So as I started to engage with people, other men and other boys, men and other boys, I started to lie, where are you going? I wasn't at the basketball game, at school. I was over there, and so I was hiding. I was lying, but I was also hiding who I was. I'm hiding my eroticism. Yeah. And I'm hiding who I was. So it begins a process of actually hiding, not just erotically. Yes. But I think for me, it was just hiding lots of things and not being true to who I was to myself or to other people. That's really poignant. I feel because certainly in our society we do compartmentalize sexuality, but as a gay boy in a repressed culture I think it's almost the only way to stay safe is to compartmentalize God, and sneak away the experiences you're speaking of, which creates this association of sexuality as a compartmentalized experience. And something you need that I needed to hide Yeah. And be ashamed of. And not tell other people about Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, it's I don't know, sometimes I look at our society and think, God, we are just really funny and weird. Oh my God. Come on. Like the way we compartmentalize sexuality, as an attorney in the workplace it's so hyper, I don't know, like sensitive, and I, to some degree it needs to be, there, there needs to be respective boundaries and consent, but I think that's what it is. We're a society that doesn't, we never learned how to talk about, identify, or honor or boundaries and consent. And I think that's why we just squash it all away and just, it's not allowed in society. As a result. Everything gets bossed into the same ball and put over to the corner. It's yes. Like even when you're walking down the street and you like, like there's a young person engaging in a really playful, joyous way, and there's a desire to interact or say hello or acknowledge their excited existence as another exciting human being. But it's like you just don't, because interacting with someone that young is gonna cause a problem first. Like the parent or the child themselves will be confused or something. So it all just gets put into this massive ball and we all Yes. Lose as a result because there's no ref, there's no refinement. There's no refinement. And the life force gets repressed and everyone, so that's why I talk about if you go out in the world and you're like, it's zero erotic energy, to me, that's you. You're missing life force energy. Yes. So on that arousal scale, if I am arousing myself in the morning, I might be a two or a three. During the day, I might still feel I feel the wind blow on my body and I feel that tingling and it's arousing in an erotic way, or I, I touch my husband's arm and I can feel energy and I get arousal. So it taps into, it's more available on short notice, and so being an erotic, being out in the world, we are erotic beings. It's part of who we are. But if we're tamping that down, absolutely. It's no different than walking around with a blindfold on, or with your hands tied behind your black. You're not really utilizing your whole being and your capability as a human being. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like that erotic, that life force energy affects our intuition, affects our creativity, affects our, magnetism, like all of that. Guys I'd like our audiences to have a sense of the retreats that you hold space for, whether it's for individuals or for couples or for groups, because your space, on Vancouver Island is really fantastic and it's ideal for, whether it's group or one-on-one retreats. Give us a sense of some of the offerings that you've had on your land. Interesting. So since we moved to our new location in Cobble Hill, we have not hosted any group retreats. We had talked about doing something this summer, but the success of the individual and the couples retreats have kept our schedule. In a happy place of fullness. Cool. And something that we're really excited about is that we're able to customize any retreat for the individual or the couple in terms of duration and to match their budget. Guests stay in our cottage. It's a, we've got a queen size bed, one bedrooms, a self-contained bathroom, and a small kitchen. And, how it unfolds is really dependent upon what their intention is and what they individual or couple is interested in exploring. Can I talk about a typical program day? We would start, please do like a naked yoga or clothing, optional yoga movement type of class. So working on the movement part, we're also bringing in breath there with pranayama. And then we move into something called that I call BTSM is my little joke for breath, touch, sound and movement. So teaching some breath practices, some upregulating breaths, some downregulating breaths. We talk about touch and different qualities of touch and encouraging people to touch all over their body. For male bodied folks, not just their cock balls, but like their whole body or their anus. And then we move into and talk about sound and movement, all of those things. And then work into kind of a communal self-pleasuring where there's a group of us in a room, all self-pleasuring at the same time. And that's mainly Oh, nice. Designed to build up the erotic energy of the individual who's the client but also have them have some experience dealing with and cultivating energy through utilizing breath, touch, sound, and movement. And then at that, on that state, we usually often take a short break and then that person goes into a private session with either Ron or me or we do four handed work too. So depending on the person's budget, like there could be the morning practice and one session, and that could be the whole day or they could have a break and lunch and in the afternoon they could have another session. And the nighttimes are often for dinner and processing and stuff. And it's also allows us to redirect or re readjust based on what the person has experienced and what they're curious about. So what we find is in a group retreat with four or five or six or eight people there's the person who wants to go the fastest, so to speak, and the person who's going the smallest, right? And you need to corral them all and keep them going. So with an individual or a couple, there's a lot more flexibility. To just course correct and say, oh, we were gonna talk about whatever today, but what's come up from yesterday is this curiosity about this thing I wasn't even aware of. And so now I wanna explore that. And so we can switch gears a little bit. But honestly, we have people coming for one night. We have people coming for three nights. We have people coming for six nights. So it depends on people's curiosity and their budget. But we can work with them depending on even what their issues are, what their questions are, what their curiosities are, but it really takes a bit of that beginner's mind from meditation or like the curiosity mind, like to just be into a space of curiosity. Or you can talk about the tantra philosophy of everything's an experiment, and I find that really helpful. I think in the way I grew up we weren't allowed to make mistakes, whatever that meant. We were supposed to do everything right. The goal is a hundred percent, the goal is an a plus, and it wasn't rewarded to try something out and maybe have it not be successful or not have it turn out the way you thought it would. So in that experiment type of philosophy where you might have a theory and you go into the laboratory and you play with it and see if it works, if you can have that kind of attitude around playing in the erotic realm, you try something out. If it doesn't feel good or it doesn't work, then now you know, and you go onto something else. Or you might have discovered something that just blossoms into a whole new way of feeling or being. And so that, that begins mind. But also this idea that everything's an experiment and we're just trying things out and practicing and playing and we'll find something. There. That's really beautiful. What I'm hearing from both of you is that you're really meeting the client where they feel safe and ready to explore, and you're rebooting their entire erotic. Iq. Really? Yeah. From, but somatically from like the ground up. Yeah. Yeah. It's like rebuilding, which is brilliant Vocabulary and conversation. Totally. Totally. That's so great. Guys I would be remiss before completing the podcast I, I'd love to ask each of you about pono, your involvement with the Body Electric and the Erotic Brotherhood and Ron, your involvement with Back To The Body. You've mentioned it, but this recent study is I think, super significant in actual providing data. And I would love to know from each of you, how did your involvement with each of these movements really come about, and what is most exciting to you about your involvement with back to the Body or the Body Electric and the erotic brotherhood? Perfect. I'll go Body Electric. I got involved with Body Electric during COVID and it started because I was going to be teaching a in-person self-pleasuring workshop, and a friend slash colleague asked me to co-create it and co-facilitate it. So we had done that and were prepared to do something in person. Spring of 2020 and of course that couldn't happen 'cause of COVID. So that's when everything started converting to trying to use Zoom and do things online. My, the partner who had asked me to do this with them was unable because of internet issues to do the program, and lo and behold, I was allowed to do a selfing workshop by myself. So I've done about three of them. I think there are four week programs, two hours meeting, and they're really designed really for a month of let's practice trying to self-pleasure every day for a month. Great. And so there's meetings once a week on a Saturday morning, and then we go through all the principles of breath, touch, sound and movement, talk about all the issues that come up around self-pleasuring. And then the idea is that during the week there's experiential practices to do and then we come back together and keep talking about it. And for a lot of guys, honestly, the talking about it part is shame shattering or starts the healing process. They're so happy to just talk about things and have some, and find someone else who's had a similar experience that's really validating. And so now I've involved in a a six month program that's every year called the Erotic Brotherhood. It started in 2021, and I was involved in 2022 and 2023, and I'm also doing it in 2024 with Jojo Bear, who was actually another participant in our 2016 of course body work program. And then Roy Canard. From Philadelphia. But it's a hybrid program that was created for geist ma male bodied and male identified people to gather. And we have online programs for six months and we explore a different theme every month. Integrity, the heart, the body, the cock spirit, and arrows, and then. At the end of the program, pretty close to the end of the program next year. Then we have an in-person gathering for a weekend for four days. And put a lot of the practices that we've done virtually in into place with touch and in-person collection. So what's really interesting is that often in a in-person workshop, especially a long weekend workshop, there's a day of getting to know everybody and lots of icebreaker programs and being comfortable. And this program really. Accelerates that because everybody knows each other. We've had Buddy had breakout. Of course we've been talk each Saturday. The one once a month, every sat one Saturday a month program is three hours. So it's a pretty long, intense meeting when we do gather. But when we, what we found last year was when we got together in person, it was really an intense advanced type of weekend because of the connections that had already been made. And so sure, we've expanded upon that every year. We're already working on the programming for 2024. It will be up on the website in the next month or two, and it goes next year from January to the early june body electric.org. Okay, great. If listeners wanna know more about the erotic Brotherhood, you can go to Body Electric do org. And I should mention now po Ponos website is ecstatic. Touch do net. Ecstatic Touch net. And Ron has two websites. One is sky clad.ca, that's sky clad, CA d.ca. And then his other website is Ron Stewart Do net. And Ron, I'd love to hear, the fact that Widener, which is one of the very few universities in the world that, that has a PhD program in human sexuality that the data collection was done through Widener is huge. So I'm talking about the back to the body research paper that was recently released. But specifically I'd also love to know what excites you most about what you've been privileged to witness and learn from the experience. Yeah. Over the past 12 years it's been pretty phenomenal for sure. So as a gay man to support women in their sexual liberation really feels like sister sisterhood in some kind of wild way. Yeah, to have worked with so many people who didn't know what the possibilities were within their body and then within the course of a retreat or some women come back 'cause they love it so much, they come back from multiple retreats and they just go deeper and deeper. But yeah, I would say that in the 12 years I have about a thousand sessions under my belt, and that's just like a stunning, amazing, I know standing beside the massage table helping people explore pleasure in their body, aside from the fact that Pamela and Back to the Body has taken me around the world, which is its own amazing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. The number one thing is just helping people go from a place of, I don't know what my body can do to, oh my God, I did, had no idea what my body could do. Yeah. And the whole range in between there and whether they're coming from, histories of sexual abuse, drug and alcohol use with never having explored eroticism without the use of drugs or alcohol. Always people. Experiencing painful sex, like trying to help them find a way that eroticism and sexuality and penetration can be like joyous and pain-free. And what often happens is the understanding of the foundational, like where your boundaries, do you, when you have sex, do you feel empowered to say yes or no? And so often it's that realization that if I don't feel like I can say, no, I'm gonna close up my pussy, and you're not getting inside there. As opposed to oh, wow. I have a voice. I've never asked for anything before in my life. I've never, i've never been able to say no. I've always said yes. And now I can say no. It makes me want to say yes and look at this. I'm experiencing this, that, and the other thing, so often it's the foundational that once you help people feel that sense of safety in their body. All of a sudden all kinds of opportunities open up. And that's been the miraculous experience. That is so beautiful. I love that, that stands out in your experience. Yeah I do find, I do find that when clients claim their voice and their body feels, has the evidence that only what it says happens, matters, or only what it wants, happens, something just starts to unravel in the body. Like the energy flows, the life force can trust that it can expand in the way that it wants and then, arousal and pleasure follows. I I worked with a friend in Toronto who, when I was talking to her about the work I did, she said, oh. I thought you helped people to not have boundaries, and it was like, oh wow. Interesting. Oh, wow. No. Yeah. Let's go back to figure out where your boundaries are because for people who have experienced abuse, that whole piece of information in their body gets scrambled and from that point of abuse, they will start to reveal a whole history of, violations, be they large or small, because of this initial scrambling of the internal knowledge of where am I safe and where am I not, where do I give my body up and where do I hold it because my body says no. All of that gets scrambled. And so the violations continue and that narrow pathway just gets reinforced and reinforced. So if we go back and really clarify what your boundaries are, what your yes is, what your no is, then. You can move forward with a sense of freedom and often from that point. If you have a desire to open your boundaries and go further, that might be more available to you. Yes. But the idea of the work is, yeah, that be boundaryless, the idea of the right is to what is safety in your body? And when you know safety, then you can start to expand out to feel the whole thing. Yeah. I think that's such a such an important tenet to underscore that it is actually the clarity of identifying and honoring the boundaries that gives you the freedom in your eroticism. Yeah. It's like boundaries. Equal freedom. Yeah. Not boundarylessness. Yeah. So when you think over the last 10, 15 years when we've seen the amount of violence and abuse take place, especially to female bodied folks, it's no wonder women are not being satisfied nor are there men because we're all working with a false idea of what sex and eroticism is. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, it's so true. It's so true. Honestly, I think because of the lack of sex ed and because of the porn, culture, I think young, I think people of all ages think that they want sex when they really want, is intimacy. And I think there's a confusion between the two, based on the lack of slowing down, the lack of understanding, erotic touch and connection, heart-centered touch and I think people are going out there essentially having fast food, sex and feeling and starving, because there's no intimacy there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a colleague who likes to say that porn is really sexual entertainment and it's not sexual education. I'll attribute that to jojo Bear and it's true. Good one. So what we see is hardons. We don't see soft cocks ever. We see very clean, sanitized sex, and we're talking gay sex. If there's anal sex, there's not gonna be any kind of. Shit that they're gonna show on the phone screen. And that's a reality of life, right? When you're playing with body parts, you have different kinds of course, bodily fluids that come out. And so they don't show fluffers, they don't show the reality of real sex. And so guys who are thinking that is what we're, that is sex. Firstly, they can have issues around their penis because there are no small penises in porn. There's large penises. And then they think that they're supposed to be hard all the time. So what is the expectation that they're having? If we saw porn where an erection came, an erection went, and erection came, and erection went, that's much more realistic, but it doesn't maybe, serve for good entertainment. Yeah. Yeah. Guys I, we could talk forever. Yes. There's, yeah. I really we vibe on a similar wavelength in our approach to supporting clients, our philosophy around sexuality and yeah. And the way we serve clients. So this has been really, it's always a joy to, to see you guys, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Thank you for having us. It's been really fun. Thanks. How is this interview landing in your body right now? Can you relate to being forced to hide or repress your sexual energy, curiosity, or desires as a child or as a teenager? And how might this early conditioning affect your current sexual expression or behaviors? Are there old outdated beliefs regarding your sexuality, your body, your genitalia, or your pleasure in need of reexamination? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health, Podcasts on Performance & Dysfunction --- ### [Healing Sexual Trauma & Rebuilding Intimacy – Dr. Laura Jurgens](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) **Published:** December 2, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Dr. Laura Jurgens, certified Sex & Intimacy Coach & Somatica Practitioner, shares her journey of re-inhabiting and reclaiming her body, her sexual pleasure, and re-writing the sexual intimacy in her marriage after years of dissociation as a survivor of childhood physical and sexual abuse. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Healing Sexual Trauma & Rebuilding Intimacy # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how sexual trauma impacts intimacy and how healing unfolds through the body with Dr. Laura Jurgens. You’ll learn how safety, pacing, and connection support rebuilding trust. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/LauraJurgens.jpg "LauraJurgens | Rahi Chun") Laura’s site: [www.LauraJurgens.com ](https://laurajurgens.com/) About Our Guest: Dr. Laura Jurgens, pronouns She/They, is a certified Somatica Sex and Relationship Coach via the Somatica Institute, as well as a certified cognitive-based Life Coach via The Life Coach School. Their Ph.D. is in the biological sciences, from the University of California Davis. She provides practical tools and experiences to support those interested in reinventing their relationships with themselves, their bodies, their pleasure, and their partners. She applies evidence-based, scientifically grounded somatic (body-based) and cognitive (mind-based) tools to get the results desired as quickly as possible – life-long skills to connect with and enjoy one’s body and emotions, and to help navigate the complexities of human relationships. ## What You’ll Learn About Sexual Trauma Healing & Intimacy $ How when children do not feel safe at home, they can also not feel safe in their body, and thus, how disembodiment can become a wise coping mechanism. $ How learning to process emotions within her body, tracking her physical sensations, and de-escalating her panic responses, allowed Laura to contextualize these responses as part of her human experience leading to an awareness of her boundaries. $ How her switch from judgment to curiosity about her own embodied emotions provided a freedom and safety to be in her body. $ How overriding your own boundaries robs people the opportunity to love the real us and our real “yes.” $ How when somatic ruptures occur in relationship, they often need to be repaired in relationship. $ How Somatica practitioners support their clients to learn about their desires, touch & arousal patterns, and give voice to their wants within an embodied, relational, and boundaried container. $ How unlike sex talk therapists, Somatica practitioners use their authentic attraction, real-time arousal, and expression of desires & vulnerabilities with 100% honesty, within a container that prohibits genital contact, kissing, or clothes-off interactions. $ How for Laura, genital dearmouring involved being present to the sensations of armour at her genitals, breathing into that space, feeling the emotions keeping the armour in place, and allowing the energy to wash through her system and release – which invited new energy in the form of pleasure to replace previous numbness. $ How the keys to re-patterning intimate play within her 20-year marriage was their shared intentionality and willingness to recreate new relational intimacy from square one by listening to the truth of their body, taking penetrative intercourse off the table, and focussing on exploration to discover what each body desired moment by moment and voicing these desires. $ How learning to engage in the difficult conversations of repairing and reconditioning intimacy patterns that were not working, can make the relationship stronger, more loving, much more pleasurable, and lots more fun. ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [Reclaiming pleasure after sexual trauma ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) [The pace of trust in trauma healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [Extended lovemaking and deep intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [Erotic sovereignty and embodied power ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [Somatic consent and touch awareness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. How does one re-inhabit one's body and reclaim their boundaries After a history of childhood, physical and sexual abuses? How does one release and repair chronic genital numbness and armor into healthy arousal and pleasure responses? How can couples recreate new intimacy dynamics and play from 20 plus year patterns to newfound discoveries of sexual aliveness moment by moment? Today we're blessed to hear from Dr. Laura Jergens, certified Somatica practitioner, as she shares her remarkable journey of reinhabiting and reclaiming her body, her sexual pleasure, and the sexual intimacy in her marriage. I am very excited today to be inviting Dr. Laura Jergens, who goes by the pronoun. She and they Dr. Laura is a sex intimacy and embodiment coach whose background includes both cognitive and the somatic as she was certified through the Life Coach School, the premier coaching school for cognitive-based coaching, as well as the Somatic Institute, a global leader in embodied sex and relationship coaching. She provides practical tools and experiences to support those interested in reinventing their relationships with themselves. Their bodies, their pleasure and their partners, and I can attest that she's done all of these things in her own life and I'm so excited to have you with us, Laura. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much, Rahi. It's wonderful to be here with you. Oh, great to be here with you too. So glad. So I thought a great jumping off point. I'm so impressed by the journey of reclamation that you've taken with your own body. I know of a lot of the adversity that you experienced when you were younger as a child and as a teen. And that included violations and being on the street, when you were 16. And, to get to a place now where you are inhabiting your body, giving voice to your pleasure for what your desires are, your bo your boundaries, your your authentic desires, and to hold space in supporting others to do that, that it's an incredible journey. And I so bow to the path you've taken and how you're holding space for others. I would love to know. As a jumping off point, I mean if you could provide a context of what some of the adversity was and what that did with your embodiment and what were the key experiences that led you to really coming back to inhabiting your body and to embodying your pleasure. Sure. So in a sort of a nutshell, I had a very isolating childhood that was quite abusive and I was really disconnected from my body. I think a lot of people experience in this culture, we already get disconnected from our bodies. We have so many messages that, really focus on our, on this sort of like white supremacist, patriarchal, colonialist version of what success is. And we train kids like that from the beginning where we're in our brains and, supposed to sit still and supposed to focus on school and all that kind of stuff. So people generally get disembodied, but when you have abuse and trauma at home and you don't have a safe place to be being disembodied is actually a very reasonable coping mechanism because it's something that, if a child does, if a child doesn't feel safe at home, they stop feeling safe in themselves. Yeah. And so that's, largely what happened in my early childhood. And then, I was sequentially abandoned by both parents at different times of my life. And ultimately that culminated in me being by my, by myself. And at, about 16, I was about 15, I was no longer at home. And about by 16 I was homeless and living on the street and dumpster diving and all kinds of stuff just to keep myself alive. So that's its own trauma, that level of poverty and not knowing where you're gonna sleep and, not and feeling very ostracized from society. And from any sort of care creates another layer of armor on ourselves. It certainly armors your heart. And so that was like, and also in there, then at 14, I, was. I was raped. And then I had a sort of like really messed up relationship with my rapist for a while. Because it was actually safer to be with him than it was to be at home. And so I had about six months of really non-consensual, not for me sex, but it was in exchange for a different type of safety. And I didn't even realize it was rape for a long time. I didn't, I was, I was 14. I didn't really know what was happening to me, but I didn't realize until I was 42 that wasn't all my fault. Despite being a feminist. And despite being a really thoughtful, smart person, the messages that I had gotten around, what I owed a quote unquote boyfriend, and what was my fault, even at home, were such that I didn't realize that this was something I wasn't even prepared to consent to because I didn't know what was really happening. Those are some of the sort of social traumas and then the sort of personal traumas, that kind of layer on to each other. And a lot of people have similar stories. Unfortunately, we have so many people in our society that have stories of isolation, stories of violation. Stories of just disconnection and feeling really disconnected or not entitled to their own body's pleasure. Yeah. So that was really what was set the stage for me. And then there was a really long, it was a long and twisty path to come back. But it is possible. I was severely depressed for many years. I had a really not successful, was not successful in therapy. It was a lot of times it was like talking to a brick wall and I just got re-traumatized. See anybody who really knew how to deal with the types of things that I had gone through or how to connect with me. So there was a lot of seeking, basically seeking, and I thought that it was me that was broken rather than understanding that I had trauma trapped in the body. And that I also had a lot of mental and emotional coping mechanisms that just weren't actually helping or serving me anymore. So it took a while of unraveling that. And just a lot of intention to do that. And then once you have the intention, somehow the tools and the teachers come, yeah. It, it really comes bit by bit and organically when you decide that you're worth the care. And that was, that's the turning point I think for me, and in my experience, the turning point for everybody is when you decide that you are worth. The care. And you're willing to give yourself a little bit of compassion. Hopefully it'll turn into a lot of compassion in the future. But even just a little compassion in the beginning to give yourself that patience to actually start finding the tools and the help that you need. Yeah. Wow. It's an incredible journey you've taken to get to where you are. And I, as you were sharing it really struck me how. As children when we are being abused and our emotional and physical needs are not being attuned to or met it can all often feel like our bodies are not ours to decide about or to take care of. When our bodies are being abused by our caretakers, it can really feel like they're, they belong to our caretakers. And so when you shared about being in that domestic situation at 14 with a boyfriend who was sexually abusing you it makes sense that if you grew up not really being dissociated to cope as well as not, really feeling like you had your own body's agency, then it's easy to imagine how someone else using your body for their needs is a. Continuation of what you were used to at home. It sounds like the real turning point came with this self-compassion and the intention, as you said, that really started the wheels churning and directing you to other experiences that aligned with that intention. What were the experiences that really seemed pivotal for you in making a difference? Because it sounds like talk therapy, was probably helpful to a certain degree, but not, it didn't make a difference in your body. Yeah. What really made a difference for you inhabiting your body? Yeah, so the first, it was a series of things for me, and I think people come to, they, we find our own path forward. And it's not necessarily always in the same pattern or linear, but for me it was really finding coaching that was. That was helping me understand my emotion. So once I got a handle on my emotions and how to work with my emotions and how to process my emotions, I finally learned that it was okay for me to have emotions and that they were not emergencies. And that there was actually tools to help me process them in my body. And I had no access to it. At first. I couldn't, the people would, the coach would ask me where are you feeling this emotion? Like fear or something? And I was like, I don't know. I have I got nothing, lady, what are you talking about? And it took me a while and some patience to start noticing. Okay, actually there's something like that feels like it's stuck in my throat. Oh. I can feel a little bit of. Dis, tightness in my chest. I can start feeling some hot or cold sensations. Starting to track the actual physical sensations of my emotions and my body. Let me actually start to deescalate the sort of disembodiment response, the sort of panic response when I was having emotions and allowed me to contextualize them as being part of the normal human experience. It was okay that I had these, it's okay that I needed to process them, and even when I came face to face with suicidal despair I was able to then tell myself, this is an emotion. I can process this in my body. It's not an emergency and it doesn't mean anything particular about me. It just means that I have the thoughts and the patterns, the stories in my brain. That are generating this emotion. So I learned how emotions are created through coaching and how to process 'em, which started giving me a handle on the beginnings of embodiment. And that then led to me realizing, okay, I'm if when, once you're paying attention once you're in your body and you're starting to pay attention, it becomes clear really quickly that you need some boundaries. It becomes because your body tells you. And so if you're paying attention to listening you start noticing that you need to manage, I, I need to, I actually, this is also the process of me stopping using any sort of substances to manage emotions. I used to drink a lot of wine. I used to drink a lot of glasses of wine in the evening. It was, because I didn't know how to process my emotions for myself. And I was trying to consume something to fix it for me, which of course it doesn't, right? It just pushes it away for a little while. Numbs it out, gives you all the like, negative stuff that you have to deal with later and actually winds up increasing your anxiety in the long term. So being embodied helped me notice what was going on with, what coping mechanisms weren't working for me. Help me pick up other ones that were like self-compassion meditations and, taking a lot of baths. Things that brought me joy and relaxing and so that then once you start doing that, you also, you come face to face with the fact you need boundaries and you also start learning that, hey, I'm an erotic being. Here I am, and you start noticing the places where you feel cut off. And so it, I feel like the body directs you. Into your healing. But the challenge for a lot of us is accessing the body's wisdom first and being able to start processing our emotions and start working with our emotions in a way that allows us to, to deescalate the, like the, this panic response where we're constantly trying to suppress them or trying to numb them out with, Facebook or TV or booze or whatever. So once we stop doing that, then the, I think the healing gates, the flood gates open. Yeah, it's really interesting really understanding that your way into your body was really. Examining and exploring and welcoming, holding space for your emotions in your body. That was like your kind of key in. And then recogni, and then not taking those emotions personally, but really being fascinated by how the different emotions can provide different flavors for your embodiment. And it sounds like, yeah, the switch between judgment to curiosity is a profound one. Profound. Yeah. It's profound. If you can start titrating in a little curiosity instead of so much judgment. So starting with ourselves, what, how can I be curious about this instead of judgmental about it? And yeah, it works with other people obviously too. How can I be curious about this person? Instead of judgmental about it. And when we do that, yeah. We absolutely, like exactly what you said happens. Yeah. We start being able to do it to process emotions in a less personal way. And it sounds like the curiosity led you to not only processing emotions in a less personal way, but you got really curious about what could feel good in your body. Yeah. So I wanna ask you, this is fantastic. I wanna ask you, as you started discovering what could feel good and getting curious about, different erotic pleasures in your body it makes sense that understanding or discerning what your boundaries are, what doesn't feel good would follow. How did you learn, 'cause we sh you, you shared earlier about we talked about growing up and if our, if we're physically abused or feel like our body's not ours, it can be very reflexive to let other people kind of use or abuse or handle our bodies as you were feeling more into your own body with the key end of your emotions, feeling good, being curious about pleasure. Can you help listeners understand what supported you in starting to identify and then voice and assert your boundaries with others because that, that can be a really huge relearning curve for a lot of people who grew up being a people pleaser or being, having the fond response. It is. It is, and it has been such an amazing, surprising, and rewarding journey. Boundaries are, I think, one of the great tragedies of our current society. That we are just not encouraged to have healthy boundaries and it really is, does such a disservice to our relationships. Oh yeah. Because saying no is one of the best gifts you can give people. And we don't respect that or honor that in our current. Ways of relating with each other most of the time. But, so in, so to go back to your question and make sure I answer it for the listeners, for me it was really learning what boundaries are and what they're not. And realizing that they're not about trying to force somebody into doing what we want. That's a kind of a common lay version of how people are interpreting boundaries sometimes. Oh. Somebody might say oh, I have a boundary about that, right? So therefore you can't do it. But that's not a boundary, that's an ultimatum. That's not a boundary. Boundaries, like real boundaries are about taking care of ourselves and loving the other person. And we don't have to do them at people. So we decide for ourselves how to take, it's about taking care of ourselves within our, and staying within our capacity. And it's not, we have to first to have boundaries. We have to acknowledge that you have a capacity. We can't be running roughshod over ourselves and, trying to do every single thing under the sun and be perfect at everything. It is not possible to actually effectively put, to have boundaries. When you're doing that, you have to acknowledge that you are human being. You are a human animal. You have a capacity, and you start noticing in your body when you feel yourself close to your capacity. And you start, that can include in an emotional capacity. My capacity for dealing with my mother is very small. Other people may have my capacity for dealing with other people is, excuse me, is actually pretty big. And other people's capacity for dealing with my mother is pretty big. My capacity for dealing with my mother is not very big. So I noticed that in my body and I realized that I needed to. To be clear about what was my capacity and honor it for myself. Even if I don't ever tell somebody else what my boundary is, I still have it and I know what I'm going to do given a situation. So I learned that given a situation, the boundary is my decision about what I'm going to do. Whether or not I communicated to somebody else. And that it really needs to track an embodied sense of our own capacity. Yeah. When we do boundaries that way, they're so loving. And that's where, we don't have to do them at somebody or against somebody. We don't have to do them aggressively to try to get people to stay away or do what we want. We can actually offer this as, look, I, I really wanna be in this relationship with you. I really wanna have this exchange with you. Now is not a time when I have the capacity to do that. Can we reschedule this? So you can do it in a loving way. If it's a sexual boundary you can offer it. I think you're wonderful. Today is not a day when I feel like being felt up. Yeah. This is you can be very straightforward, but you can still be kind about it. And I think so understanding the nuances of boundaries and understanding that they're not, they don't need to be aggressive. But they really do keep us from being in resentment and that's where the people, this journey of boundaries is always, is gonna come up against your people pleasing. 'cause we are, especially women are socialized to be championship people pleasers. But when we're doing that and we're not being authentic to ourselves, we don't actually give anybody the opportunity to love the real us. And we don't give somebody the opportunity to really get to enjoy our authentic Yes. Because they never really believe us. 'cause we're pretty much bullshitting all the time. So we're not saying when we give somebody our real no. And we give somebody our true Yes, then we really get to celebrate both of those things with somebody else. There's so many gems in, in what you shared there, Laura. I love your, the way you hold boundaries as really attuning to and understanding the capacity and your limits and you're really just, it's a gift to be that honest with somebody else in service of the relationship. And that's what I hear you sharing. Exactly. Yeah. As well as understanding what boundaries are not, it's not rejecting someone, it's not being aggressive, it's not it's really. It's really loving yourself and honoring the relationship. I'd love to know your journey of as you are, as you described, becoming embodied, tuning into your emotions, feeling into what your pleasure is, being able to speak to and honor your boundaries. How was the journey for you to start vocalizing and asking for what you wanted in sexual intimacy? Especially coming from, a past where Yeah. In situations it was taken from you. Yeah. The journey was hard. It was, this was not something that came easily to me. Any of you out there who find this really hard to say what you want? I hear you and I see you because it is. It is not easy for a lot of us, and I felt at times that it was almost impossible for me to actually physically get the voice to move out of my throat. It felt like there was a block and I actually think there was a block. That's how it, I experienced it. It was I couldn't even tell you that it was like a fear. It was more just it was like, somehow I didn't have that capacity. Yeah. It felt like I didn't have the capacity, but everybody does have the capacity Sure. To say what you want. You might need to go slowly with yourself. And start really small. That was what worked for me was starting with very basic non-sexual things and taking the sexual part off the table for a little bit in a relationship. Can really help you to practice. Asking for what you want. Even if it's just this is the way I want you to touch my hand right now. What we need is not, we need the practice of asking, but we also need the practice of the other person. We need to do it in relationship. And we really need these prac, those of us who have the type of trauma I do anyway, I will say. Where when we were children and we asked for what we wanted, we were smacked down, or we were belittled or humiliated or something horrible happened to us. We were not encouraged, we were shut down in some way. Then we really do actually need to heal this in relationship. Yes. And that's one of the things that I do with people in my practice is actually provide that type of relationship where people can heal. Through practicing with another human being. Yeah. But it's so important to have somebody actually receive that well. And to have somebody receive it well when we say, no, not that way. And to have them then just wait and be, you do this so beautifully in your practice too, is one of the most amazing things to experience is when somebody really welcomes your desires. You're very specific, your body's desires. Not what we think we should. It was the takes. It took me, I had to be embodied first before I could learn how to do this, because I had to be able to listen. First to what my body wanted instead of what I thought in my brain that I should want. Anytime there's a should in there, red flags should be going up. So getting into the body and then practicing with very low stakes types of touch. And starting to connect. I needed to connect my mind and body so that my body felt like I was gonna represent her needs. And that my voice was gonna be used for her and that freed up my voice. A lot. And it's actually one of the things we did together when I was working with you that was, I had started that process, but having the time to really have a dedicated person who is gonna be a practice partner in that beautiful way with your attention is just, it's so profound and it just creates space for somebody to really unlock. The relationship between. Their mind and their body and their voice. Yeah. I feel really strongly as I know you do too. I'm just echoing what you shared. When ruptures happen in relationships, they need to be repaired in relationships, in the same way that when ruptures happen, somatically, they need to be repaired somatically. And to re, replace the old story or the old touch imprint the old story of what the body experiences as possible can be life changing. It opens up entire new terrains. It's almost like a whole new neural pathway opens up for what's possible. Yeah. That's fantastic. You just described it so well. I think it's really like a restoration, right? Like it's a birth, it's restoration. We all have this neural pathway available to us. We have the ability to say what we want. We have the ability to know what we want. And then say it. So that's the first step is actually like it is just to know it. I work a lot of people who just, we need to know what we want and I had a hard time coming to that and a lot of my clients do, but I promise you are capable of knowing what you want. You might just need a lot of space and encouragement to find it. And a little bit of patience. But once you know it, you can say it. We all have that pathway, but it does, it gets damaged in relationship just, and it does get damaged. Somatically too, just like you're talking about. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I find that with clients who really have no clue what their body wants, providing some options so that their body can, feel into what feels better, what feels good. It can be like baby steps. And then once they experience what feels good in their body. Yeah. Taking the leap to actually ask for it. Especially when there, there's, when there's been a pattern of being punished or ridiculed or bullied when they did in the past it can be just be a huge breakthrough and turning point. Dr. Laura, I wanna ask you, about the Somatica method because you are a Somatica practitioner. And I, for listeners, I'd love for you to describe, if you can, succinctly what a Somatica practitioner does based on the Somatica method. And I'm curious what role the Somatica training played in your reclamation journey as well. Yeah, so a somatica practitioner is a really unique. Type of interaction. We have really unique interactions with our clients because we're not like therapists where we're just sitting, talking and very removed, right from the very emotionally removed, very physically removed. We do have, it is a close on practice, but we do invite a lot of touch and a lot of intimacy. So what I create with clients is really a relationship lab. So we have an actual relationship that we build, that we use to explore things like learning our own arousal, learning how to manage increasing and decreasing our arousal, learning our own desires, how we like to be touched. Really just playing and exploring those things. And it's so unusual to have somebody that we can practice with. So it's a very practice oriented, embodied type of work where you're maybe getting you, you're getting guidance and you're getting training, you're learning skills, but we're also actually really, truly having a vulnerable relationship and practicing communicating vulnerably, being in an intimate dynamic with someone. Wow. Wow. That sounds so beautiful. It sounds like the practice we all should have gotten in high school, before, oh my gosh. Engaging. Oh, yes. I wish I had gotten relationship right. I wish everyone in high school had gotten this and to some extent. I wish we were all really capable, of getting it even earlier. Just a lot of a how to communi, when I see some of the kids these days who are getting practice talking about their feelings and starting to understand that they have some control, it's not just so and so made me feel this way. But like, how does this feeling feel in my body? What is this? Just even that simple practice as a child is so powerful and most of us need to learn it as adults. How to process feelings in our body, how to allow somebody to be close to us when we're feeling vulnerable, how to speak about our own desires. And how to receive someone else's and someone's boundaries with kindness. So those are some of the things, we might practice in a whole session. Just how do we feel safe while sharing and receiving boundaries? Wow. That, which I wish we had in high school too. Yeah. Yeah. It's astounding. So it's, I love that you call it a lab and, what's dis what's different about it as, as you underscored earlier, the difference with a sex therapist or a talk therapist is here you are using yourself and your real intimacy attractions, vulnerability. So it's like a real time, real, somatic situation where your arousal and your feelings are involved and engaged, but it's a very safe container with boundaries. Absolutely. So it's a hundred percent honest. I don't have to pretend I don't, I would never do that to anyone. We actually see what's there and we play with what's really there and it's really incredible to be able to have the space to do that with someone, but within a container. Where we all know the boundaries and we know that it's in the service of their growth and their relationships. Yeah. You know what stands out to me is the invitation for clients to really become familiar and intimate with their own arousal system whilst it's relating intimately with a, another real human being involving touch in real time. Exactly. Yes. And we learn that there's, the whole body erogenous zone, even even though we don't do genital touch, which I think is such an important part of your practice and such an important modality, but there's such a beautiful compliment to actually activate the rest of the body and to allow ourselves to be connected to our genitals while the rest of our body is activated and with another human being as well. And it really helps us change the. The sort of, internalized idea of what sex is as this sort of, we have to be naked doing this one particular thing where there's like a penis going into something. That's like the cultural definition from our patriarchal cultural definition of sex. Yeah. And instead we're just playing with bodies and we're playing with arousal more enjoying ourselves. And so we use pleasure as a way of helping ourselves heal from disconnections with ourselves and with other people. And disconnections with our joy. Yeah. I was gonna say, I feel like the fact that genitals are not involved actually invites a much, much deeper understanding of your arousal, of your intimacy needs and your desire for connection. It's really profound because I find that, I think a lot of folks just hop right into penetration without understanding their arousal, their desire, their boundaries, their intimacy, their connection. All of the things that you get to teach with your clients in this model. Yeah, exactly. So we wanna make sure that the genital, so it's not that the genitals aren't totally involved, but we're just not touching them. Uhhuh. So the gen, what we wanna do is actually really bring an awareness to the whole body. Including our genitals of that arousal so that we can track our own. Arousal and how it relates to desire. And those two things are, as we know, totally different, right? Our emotional and mental desire can, is super important to our arousal, but our physical arousal's different. So we wanna help people learn to pull apart those things, identify for the them for themselves, communicate about them, and really track them in their own body. So we do a lot of practice with figuring out what is it that actually really turns you on in different ways, and how do we help you get that more in your life? How do we help you be comfortable with it? For me I wasn't even really comfortable with my own desire and arousal. It freaked, it used to freak me out. It felt really like I needed something from somebody and that felt too vulnerable for me. So somatica is a way that we can practice with owning that and allowing it for ourselves and really starting to relax into enjoying it too. Oh brilliant. Thank you for that. Absolutely. And how about for you in your journey? How was it, how was, like, what role did it play in your kind of journey of healing and reclamation with intimacy and sexuality? I would say for me that one of the biggest gifts of my training with Somatica was really opening my heart and in a lot of and learning to be fully present with somebody with an open heart and trusting this is a hard thing for people with an abuse history, right? I had a lot of genital armor, but I also had a lot of heart armor. And. It was a lot easier for me. Coming through academia, I was always very, neck up, right? Reclaiming my sexuality and allowing myself to be a full sexual being as I walked through the world. That was another gift of my training because I learned not to just be in my brain, but to allow myself to be in my body even while I'm working. While I'm connecting with people, while I am just being present with people and to be really, open to, so there's so much variety in people's experiences, but there's also so much commonality in no matter what sort of flavor of challenge that somebody may be having. There's, we all have the same shame responses we have. We have, challenging coping mechanisms that are no longer working for us. There's so many ways that just bringing an open heart and compassion really is so healing that we're humans and we're such, we're designed to be, in deep connection with people. And so that, that training really gave me an opportunity to be, it. It's, I love it every day, right? Because I get to be open hearted with people, and I also get to be fun and flirty and playful with them, but I get to experience this joint caring and compassion in a way that's key. Yeah. Yeah. What stands out for me is really the full bodied. Open-hearted connection and being available for that kind of relational, intimate dynamic, just in life in general, so it can be a joy to explore with anyone who is fortunate enough to cross paths with you. Laura, I wanted to ask you, 'cause you mentioned a moment ago there was the heart deaming, which was different than the genital Deming. Can you speak a little bit about what it was like now that your genitalia is no longer armored? What difference do you notice? What was the journey for you of going from having genitalia that was armored and more numb and less sensitive to res sensitizing and having the full capacity of your erogenous anatomy available to you? Yeah. So for me, I had felt, and I know a lot of other people, I have clients that have similar dynamics, where with myself, I was a lot more, it was a, I was a lot more open and I had a lot more sexual response than I did with a partner. It was when I was in the presence of another person that I tended to shut down. And so the process of de arming was really one of a I needed another person to help me with that. I really needed to become more comfortable and to experience a male presence. And I, we're not in a post gender world yet and my experience has been very gendered. There, our world experience our cultural experience is very gendered. And so that actually, so healing in that di in that paradigm was also important for me. When I did become de armored, I what's happened for me is that I'm more open with partners. And it's easier for me to stay in my body and experience pleasure in my body with a partner. I don't get, I don't get as disembodied. I don't have to take myself out into fantasy world as much. I can stay more present. I still love fantasy world, but Yeah. And I love doing that with partners too. But I can stay more present. I can stay more present with my sensations and I can use my voice better. So I can direct things more clearly. Where it's what I want, I feel more safe in the encounters that I have. And because my body feels safer, even when my mind felt safe, the problem wasn't that it was that, like I knew my partner was safe, intellectually, but my body didn't know. Sure. And so now that my body knows my partner is safe, my body responses open up. So I'm able to have, I'm able to get aroused faster with a person. I'm able to have more orgasms with a partner. And in general, it just feels more authentic and relaxed instead of performative, where I sort constantly trying to overcome something. So it almost made it perform like. It had to be performative to some extent. Because I had so much effort involved. Yeah. It brings up when you mentioned how you were able to experience your arousal and pleasure solo, but it was different with another being. It reminds me again of how important it is to repair ruptures. It's almost like replacing the old story with a new story. So if it's, ruptures relationally, repairing them relationally, and if there was a rupture with a male person to repair that with a male person or a practitioner can really it's almost like a reset of the nervous system with that. What was a fear response can now be a safe response or even a pleasure response. Laura. Yeah, that's how I experienced it too. When I worked with you, I really experienced this like moment of feeling like your presence as a very benign and benevolent, like you were. It is a very benevolent presence for me. And this sort of like emergent feeling of safety in the body. Which was absolutely not something that I could get to without the entire sort of the container that you created of and the somatic experience of being present with somebody who's able to hold that type of space and to have that type of presence with somebody. Yeah. So it sounds like your body and your body's nervous system feeling that sense of safety within how the space was being held, really allowed for shifts to happen within your own body. Can you, do you recall, I'm wondering if you can describe for our listeners, like Sensorially and emotionally the process of genital disarming if you, I don't know if you recall. Yeah, I do recall it. So viscerally actually, for me, the process was quite spiritual. It was really a sense of, and it was very, there was a lot of energy and I'm a, I'm a trained scientist which means I'm both very on the practical side of things, but I also recognize how much we don't know about anything and how much we are energy beings. So it was really beautiful to notice what happened for me first was noticing parts of my body, parts of my genitalia that were a little bit numb. And there was there, or maybe a little bit sore, there was like a little bit of like pain or numbness in sort of a spot and I felt because I was so attuned to my body and that's what we were doing and that's what I was there for, I was able to ask you to pause. So there's, practicing using my voice, asking you to pause, and then having some attention in that place and just creating some space for it. So allowing that to then just unfold and just be present and just breathe through it allowed me to, it just would open up and I would get a rush of energy and to the extent where it felt like static electricity, like huge blanket of static electricity around my body. And I would get this sort of big flow of energy that would come up and, just wash through me. And then it would the sense that spot in my genitals would turn into pleasure. And then usually there was an emotion that came up. But for me, none of them were traumatic emotions that came up. I think because I'd done so much emotional processing already, that it was really just a, oh, you're there. Okay. Okay. Here you are. Yeah. So the first, the first spot had something to offer me that was really sovereignty. And it felt like when it released, it felt like I got this, I was able to take back my sovereignty. And then, another spot we worked on, it felt like I was able to receive like this benevolent male energy. And I didn't know what each one of these, this was just all spontaneously came to me with each. Each location. And so it was a really interesting, I had no idea that any of this was gonna happen, but this is just the process that happened for me. And it was really beautiful. Yeah. What I recall from your series is that you had done so much of the emotional work, on your own, in your own journey, that it was a matter of really just updating your tissues to reflect that, that updated clearing. And the reason I ask is I think genital diaring can seem really mysterious or, like a vague process. So the way you describe it is concrete and 'cause what I remember is, you would feel, just like you described, you would feel the armor release. There would be emotions or tears arise followed by the pleasure and that electrical current that you describe. I always liken it to whatever energy had been stored and repressed in that area for so long as now being released from the body and the tissues and the psyche. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. That energy then felt really accessible to me and felt like I was able to claim it for the, in perpetuity. I felt like I had access now to parts of my body where I. Somehow, you know, somehow that energy had been blocked and it was released and then I got to integrate it into myself. So I would, when I left the de arming session, it was, I felt like a bigger sense of myself. I felt like a much more energized sense of me, and I was able to, I felt I had gotten access to my full humanity in a way that I didn't have, because a few, I had some of these spots that were still holding trauma in the tissues. Yeah. And it was really joyful. It was really a joyful process. Wonderful. Wonderful. I want, I was so impressed with when we zoomed after your series, when you went back to Texas, you had shared with me how you essentially reinvented your intimate dynamic with your husband. Now that your body had changed and the trauma had released and the armor was no longer there, I would love for you to share with listeners because, I get calls from so many clients who've been in marriages or long-term relationships for, from several years to decades, and they feel like they're really in a pattern. And the way you and your husband really started from. Like ground zero again and built up this new kind of relational dynamic was so fantastic. Can you share what were the key, most important points for you that you felt like made the difference in bringing this updated version of yourself into a new, intimate and sexual dynamic with your husband? For sure. So I think the most important aspect for me was, and for us in our relationship was intentionality and just willingness. We, I came back and I, we had been together for 20 years and we have a open marriage. But we had been primary sexual partners for 20 years. And. We had fallen into a lot of patterns over the course of that time. Sure. And when we first got together, we were pretty trauma bonded. And we had, we were in our twenties and, I, we grew, hopefully over the course of 20 years we grow. And Sure. And so I felt like I had really substantially grown and so much around my sexuality Yes. That really needed to press the reset button and start over. And I needed to find, I really wanted to find that safety in my body that I had felt during the de arming and that sovereignty. I wanted to enable that with my partner. And I knew that for me, in order to do that, we were gonna have to really start. With the same kind of process where my body felt. So instead of listening to my brain, I said, we're not gonna listen to my brain. I'm gonna listen to my body and we're gonna start at square one. So we took we took like insertion based sex off of the table. And really focused on exploration. No, no orgasm goals. Just physical touch and noticing the. Boundaries, communicating around them, talking about what we want. And we did, so I would actually demonstrate some of those things on him. And give him space to do that and talk about what he wants. And then I would give it to him. And then, we would switch and I would ask for a certain type of touch, maybe a light touch along my back and I would teach him what what I wanted. And if it was not quite right, I would correct it, and so we took our time to really allow the bodies and mine in particular, because I was a person who was carrying a lot of trauma that I had run rough shot over. And I had not spoken up for my body. And so I needed to let my body trust me. Yes. So I wanted to do that in his presence and have him help facilitate that. And that really opened things up a lot so that my body felt. Much more relaxed so that by the time that we are putting sort of all aspects of sexual activity back on the table, we had developed a really clear communication and we had been able to remove what was a lot of people pleasing and a lot of assumptions and stories about our old patterns. By just starting from the beginning. Again, yeah. And I almost gotta have like the type of exploratory sexy like exploration that I would've wanted as a teenager, that I didn't, yeah. Yeah, so we got to have that sort of like little, like slow learning and little bit of touch and things. And we used, we drew heavily on Dr. Betty Martin's work. Yes. We went and we did all her videos and, I read her books and all of the bossy massage and the three minute game are wonderful tools that everybody should access. They're all on YouTube, so please go do all that stuff with your partner. And we definitely incorporated that as well. Wow. That is so super cool. I feel like you and your husband, I don't know if your husband's in this line of work, but you guys could teach couples workshops on really how to, restart, reboot, from the ground up. Because it sounds to me like, the most inten important thing was the intentionality as you shared, but then the willingness that you both had to really take your time. And it's almost like rediscovering each other's bodies and re and rediscovering each other's boundaries and voice to create these new imprints. So your nervous systems are like being rewired with each other, but from the ground up taking as you say, insertion sex off the table, I've never heard it described that way. Insertion sex off the table and just exploring, from ground zero and building, building your way up, that just sounds incredible. And I think, something, all couples can just not, like you can't not benefit from something like that because we do go into patterns and default modes and, when there's only 10 minutes left before the kids come home, that kind of a thing. Yep. Yeah, so it was a really wonderful process. I recommend it to everybody, whether or not you've been through a Dr. Armoring or not. To go back and I think, we had to address some fears, right? So he had a lot of fears around whether I would, like, how long was it gonna take, and like how patient was he gonna have to be and whether we would get back to insertion sex or what was happening with that and. I needed to take the time I was gonna take and we, I just asked him to decide that if we would both commit to just deciding this was gonna work. Yeah. That was the big thing was just it's gonna work. We're gonna decide it's gonna work. But we're gonna take whatever time it takes, because the pressure of it's gonna be two weeks or three weeks, or, 17 days and 47 minutes, that is pressure and that pressure does not help the sexy. Yes. So we needed to take all that and just. Put it aside and let it take, my body was gonna take what time she needed. And so that needed to be okay. And there was some growth there. There was like learning, luckily because of my training, I know how to have difficult conversations. And so some of my clients, that's one of the things that we work on, is just how to have difficult conversations where you come out stronger Yeah. Than you went in. How to repair so that you repair like a broken bone where it winds up being stronger and not like a sprain where it's always wonky. So those are some of the key ingredients too. But it's absolutely possible to reinvent your sexual relationship with somebody. We never know exactly what somebody's capable of, even if we've lived with them for 20 years. Love that. Love, love that. Laura, how can people find you? So they can find me on my website. It's just Laura Jergens with the Jergens is with A-U-J-U-R-G-E-N s.com. And I have resources up there and lots of I love to hear from people. So my emails up there and folks can contact me if they have questions. Wonderful. Wonderful. Laura, thanks so much for being with us, for sharing your journey, for sharing your wisdom, and for doing this fabulous work that is so needed. Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me, Rahi. It's always fun to talk with you. How is this interview landing in your body right now? Are there new patterns of connection, touch, and sexual intimacy? You would like to introduce into your relationship, would exploring your arousal states touch boundaries and realtime intimate play within a clearly defined container with a somatica practitioner? Be beneficial to your evolving somatic and intimacy iq. How would it be to inhabit your embodiment, your genital pleasure, and your boundaries even more? Links to Laura's website, laura jergens.com, and a transcription of this interview will be in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Deep Intimacy & Connection, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships, Podcasts on Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing --- ### [Intimacy After 60: Sexuality, Aging & Lifelong Passion](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/) **Published:** February 13, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** I’m overjoyed to share this episode with Frank and Judith, authors of the wonderful books, “The Magical Sex Book” and “So That’s Why They Do That - About Men, Women and Hormones.” They met when Frank was 69 and Judith was 60 and over the last 18 years have enjoyed the deepest intimacy and most ecstatic sex of their lives. They generously and lovingly share how they consciously cultivate their deep connection and satiate their sexual desires in their ever-expanding relationship with themselves and with each other. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Intimacy After 60: Sexuality, Aging & Lifelong Passion # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how intimacy and sexuality evolve with age and what becomes possible beyond conventional narratives of decline. You’ll learn how connection, pleasure, and vitality can deepen later in life. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/JF_Intertwined-scaled.jpg "J&F_Intertwined | Rahi Chun") [Top Gun Love](https://topgunlove.com/) [The Magical Sex Book](https://topgunlove.com/hormones-relationships-men-women-oxytocin/) [So THAT’S Why They Do That – Men, Women and Hormones](https://topgunlove.com/hormones-relationships-men-women-oxytocin/) About Our Guests: Frank is a true renaissance man. A veteran having served in Vietnam where he flew F-100s, he’s also taught flying and aerobatics, raced sports and formula cars, and skippered winning yaught racing crews. He is also a devoted student having done deep dives into studies and practices involving love, sex, intimacy and relationships and is licensed by the Relationship Coaching Institute. Frank believes that love and sex are a spiritual practice and that love relationships are the foundation of everything we do which requires skills and practice. Judith is a renaissance woman. A creative soul and artist, she’s written lyrics for at least 10 recorded songs as well as screenplays, she paints and has performed on stage. She’s also been doing personal, career, and relationship counseling and coaching for over 40 years influenced by her deep dives into Eastern and Western spiritual practices exploring what is authentic and true – within our relationship with ourselves and others. Together, they have co-authored two books, “The Magical Sex Book” and “So That’s Why They Do That! about Men Women and Hormones.” ## What You’ll Learn About Sexuality, Aging & Lifelong Intimacy $ What is was about their relationship with each other, after decades of exploring sacred sexuality and intimacy with others, that took their experience of intimacy, connection and sexual union to new expansive heights. $ How exploring going deep within a 90 day container created a foundation of authenticity in intimacy with each other. $ How their daily love rituals, multiple times a day, serve to deepen their connection for intimacy and pre-play. $ The importance of pre-play and after-play, which along with foreplay and The play are the 4 stages of great sex covered in their “The Magical Sex Book.” $ How their Day of Worship every Sunday creates and cultivates somatic patterns for sexual intimacy and aliveness. $ How our hormonal make-up affects the intimacy of after-play $ How taking care of one’s own sexual needs allows for the freedom of sexual authenticity and true connection in relationships $ How desire can be created and cultivated with intentionality and practice. ## ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [How hormone balance and cyclical living lead to greater Jing Qi](https://rahichun.com/podcast/hormone-balance-jing-chinese-medicine/) [How extended lovemaking and deep intimacy can transform consciousness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) [How erotic sovereignty and embodied power changes intimacy with Self and others. ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [How pleasure is medicine and can be utilized for pelvic healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were never taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. This is a special episode for me because I've known today's wonderful guests, Judith and Frank personally for 25 years before I became a somatic sex educator, and before they became the celebrated co-authors of the magical sex book. And so that's why they do that about men, women, and hormones. I so love that they're experiencing the best sexual intimacy, connection, and relationship of their lives well into their seventies and eighties. As I wish for everyone. How do they continually explore and deepen their sexual intimacy, pleasure and connection in these prime years? I could not imagine a better way to launch her second season than with Judith and Frank. Additionally, I'd like to share a new online course I'm offering. The three keys to genital disarming for expanded pleasures. How to bring safety within the nervous system, reclaim your body's authentic sovereignty and empower your sexual pleasure. Details can be found by clicking the link in the podcast description, or go to somatic sexual wholeness.my Kajabi. Dot com. And now without further ado, the wonderful Frank Uighurs and Judith Claire. I am really honored and overjoyed today to be inviting two wonderful, embodied souls to the podcast who I've known for decades before I even came into the sexuality realm Frank and Judith. Frank is really a Renaissance man. He's a veteran having served in Vietnam where he flew F1 hundreds. He's taught flying and aerobatics. He's raced sports and formula cars, skipper winning yacht races. But he's also been a devoted student having done deep dives into studies and practices involving sex. Love intimacy and relationships, and is licensed by the Relationship Coaching Institute. Frank believes that love and sex are a spiritual practice and that love relationships are the foundation of everything we do, which requires skill and practice. He's been in the relationship of his dreams and is able to practice what he preaches with Judith. Which brings us to Judith, who is he does practice what he preaches. Yes. Yes, indeed. Indeed. I can attest to that. That's so refreshing in somebody who talks about it, yes, exactly. So Judith is a Renaissance woman. A creative soul and artist. She's written lyrics for at least 10 recorded songs. She's written screenplays. She paints, she's performed on stage and she's also been doing personal career and relationship counseling and coaching for over 40 years, influenced by her deep dives into Eastern and western spiritual practices, exploring what is really authentic and true within our relationships with ourselves and with others. Together. This team has co-authored two books, the Magical Sex Book, which we'll get into, and so that's why they do that about men, women, and hormones. I see the meeting of the two of you who I know were devoted students of sex and intimacy and relationships. Finally having met your match when you two came together almost 20 years ago, which is so cool. I'm so glad that you're joining us today. Welcome. Oh, thanks. Thanks, Rahi. It's great to be here with you. And it's really a pleasure. I guess you all know Rahi, but I do know him for a long time. Yes. And it's been like he's always from the minute I met him looking for truth, looking for authenticity. He's always open, he's always vulnerable. He's always curious. He was always like that. And so this is the culmination, at least of my time. I think we, we talked about knowing each other about 25 years exactly. And it's been, it's always a joy to connect with him. Always a joy every time. I remember one time it wasn't great being in s space. I feel the same way about you, Judith, and Frank. I know you less well, but I so enjoyed connecting with you as well. Guys, I feel like a great jumping off point 'cause there's so many juicy topics covered in your book that I wanna get to. But I wanted to ask, what was it about meeting, relating and making love with each other that took your sexual and intimacy iq? To the new and expansive levels that it did, because I know I, I knew both of you before you got together or around that time, and I know you were both, practiced in tantra and intimacy and relationships. What was it about meeting each other that made the difference for you? We both have, I think the same core values. For me. You can have physical ecstasy of course even with yourself. But the thing is that makes, everything really deeper for me and better for me is the connection of one soul to another. And we both had that core value of we wanted to commit. We wanted to find one being and be with one being. Who is going to focus in terms of relationship, their attention on deepening the connection deepening how we relate to each other. Yes. And relating to each other. These are very simple and this isn't even, tan or anything else. With kindness. With respect. With support. With intelligence. With a willingness to work through all the many conflicts that arose initially. Sure. To know each other. And when you find a being like that, what that does in terms of your physical sexual connection. Is that you're now, you're with somebody who you trust, who you know, could let down everything. You could just take a breath and be with that being. And when that occurs and that occurs consistently, yeah. Day after day, week after week, year after year, it elevates everything. So it isn't okay, we found that we had a sexual chemistry. Which we did. But that, but I had sexual chemistry with other people. Sure. But the thing is, were the people committed to the deepening of the relationship and were they capable of it? Were they capable and were they committed? Damaged or not conscious enough. To be able to really create a relationship. Yeah. So that really stands out and what I hear is the, not only the commitment, but the capacity to do the deep dives and to do the deep work of really putting the soul to soul connection above everything else day after day, month after month, year after year. I wanted just say, something interesting that after Judith and I met, of course there was chemistry. We were at a puja actually, where we met Yes. And Oh, walked the room and I looked at her. Ooh. And smiled. And she looked back at me and smiled. And we both connected in that instant. Yeah. Wow. And after the Pusha was over, we made an agreement to get together and we went out the following weekend. And that was 18 years ago. Yes. And after, I think it was about our third date, juth said to me. I'm looking for a husband and I said, I'm looking for a long term relationship. And she said, I'm looking for a husband, Uhhuh. I said that would be a long term committed relationship, right? So I said, here's the deal. Let's commit to each other right now and let's do that for 90 days and see how it works. And let's see how deep. And how fast we can go deep. Wow. We did that. What I discovered was that Judith was really authentic. She could really just be Judith. And she put up with no bs. And mean, it was just like, and I went, amen. Yeah. Sometimes it was uncomfortable and she would get. Riled up when I'd call her on her bs, so the idea was to stay there and work on it. Yeah. No matter what. No matter what. And as she said, what made our relationship magic was our commitment to our connection. And we walk on that and fought for it every day in rituals that we do several times a day. I don't know. That's my 2 cents worth. I love it. I love it. Not only the commitment and being capable of that kind of deep connection, but I also hear the, both of you were really ready for doing this kind of deep dive into intimacy and relationship when you met each other. And I love the 90 day commitment. I just think, wow, what a. What an ecstatic 90 days to explore with someone in that kind of way. The other thing that I really hear in both of you are sharing is, the authenticity that you both were ready and practiced in bringing to your two relating and to intimacy. Yeah. First of all, when he said, let's go as fast and deep, he said it very quickly. He's the fighter pilot, and he goes boom. He said, and he said it fast. He didn't say he said it, no. He said, okay, let's go as fast and deep as we can. And he scared the shit out of me, to tell you the truth. Yeah. I had this of a fear I was bringing up I don't wanna, I'm not. To state you. I'm looking for a husband, basically. If that doesn't, that's not your thing. I don't even wanna go on. With my subtext behind, I'm looking for a husband. I didn't expect that kind answer. Let's just go as fast as we can. Yeah. So challenge Sure gave me a challenge. Yeah. It's almost like you pulled out four queens and he pulled out four Kings and talked you there. I'll see you and raise you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And also I wanna say, it wasn't in the beginning. Of course it. I was 60 years old when I met him. He was 69 and now I'm 78 and he's 87, right? So we met each other. We were ready. We were sure. Ready. Yeah. Took a long time to get ready. But because I've had so many relationships, right? Divorce from one divorce, I. I wasn't, we didn't have that kind of honeymoon period very long. I see Uhhuh and said, let's go. And we really did get into things that. That were issues uhhuh and were different between us and or our own baggage or whatever it was. So even within the 90 days we had to work. Yeah. We didn't have, an extended bliss period. I see. I see. We had board and we had the attraction, we had the desire, the excitement. But we also, had to roll up our sleeves. Yeah. But you guys were ready and willing to do that because you guys understood that's what it takes. You're being authentic with each other. The thing that really inspires me is that as you just mentioned, Judith, you were 60, Frank was 69, and you guys were ready for the relationship of your life. At that juncture having, wanting to take advantage of all the lessons you've learned along the way, which so inspires me. Because I feel like a, I think there's a stereotype out there about people in their golden years, of hanging up that, hanging it up, when it comes to sex and intimacy, not realizing they, they can be. They can be priming themselves for the relationship and the sexual pleasure of their lives as you guys have experienced. Yes. Yeah, that's true. It's so great. Okay, so I wanna get into the magical sex book. There are sex, I'm sorry. Yeah, please thing. I think it's very important. In the first year I got cancer, I remember that gastro lymphoma, and we were only dating a year. That was serious cancer. Yeah. And and being able to navigate through that together and stay together. Yeah. And love each other was a really big challenge. Because you know what? In the groups that I was in of women, even their husbands left them. Wow. Husbands and boyfriends. A lot of men couldn't stick around. Yeah. When there was that kind of threat and that kind of pain? Sure. I went down 96 pounds and I was bald. So I can say that, during the honeymoon period that I was the most beautiful I'd ever been. I was really like, scary. It was less than 96. It was 92, I think. Oh, wow. A ball. So in your later years, you may come into this, but that's again where the commitment comes in. The commitment that says, okay, I want this kind of relationship and I'm willing to fight for it, and I'm willing to fight for that person and for us. Yeah. Yeah. Looking back, it was really I would not wish that experience on anyone, but it really showed your true colors. 'Cause I remember, to be honest with you, I remember I just have these images or memories of how devoted Frank was to your healing journey. I can't remember the like where I picked that up, but I remember having, just getting that impression. And you guys Yeah, I can imagine, how. How many layers you really got to see and feel and relate with each other, having gone through that a year into your relationship. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Someone of the many relationship books I read, the guy who talked about the cauldron. And being in crucible of relationships and you get ground up. Yeah. And you gotta come outta it as something better. Yeah. But it's a process. It's difficult sometimes. It's not now. After 18 years, we're cool. But it's a good thing to tell people that even though you might go through some hard stuff, the point is you go through it. You go through it. If you're being honest, if you love each other, if you're committed, you go through it and make it easier and easier, better and better. And you're closer and things are, yep. The bed big. Yeah. Too, your relationship goes through cycles of harmony, disharmony, and repair. It's just. Every relationship. It's just, you can't avoid it. So learning how to deal with it is a, is a real blessing. Yeah. Learning how to deal with it and also understanding that's the nature of relationships to not take the disharmony as a threat, but as an opportunity. For deeper understanding and for that repair. Exactly. There, there's so many kind of directions we can go here. Like for example, Frank earlier mentioned the rituals that you guys do several times a day. I'd love to know more about that. Judith mentioning the cancer ordeal. I was curious how someone who goes, a body that goes to that, how do you. Reignite the sexual aliveness and and pleasure in the body after the body's gone through that kind of, that kind of experience. And then I al I so wanna get into the chapters of your book as well, but as a jumping off point how about, I know there's a, there are sections in your book. Where you talk about easy rituals that deepen intimacy and daily dues. Can you talk about that as a way of cultivating and reflecting that commitment and intimacy with each other? Yeah. Using rituals comes a lot from my fighter pilot background, Uhhuh, because there's processes you do when you fly. You have to read a checklist, you have to go through certain procedures, and you have to do those, otherwise you might die, right? That's a ritual in our relationship, the rituals that we use. The first one we call morning worship. And we worship each other now. I know that, that sounds weird. That sounds awesome. It sounds amazing. The way we do it, it's just really simple. We sit down usually at the breakfast table, ah, and I'll tell something like. I really love you. I love the way you create your art. I love the way you create your life. I love the way you help your clients. I love your tits. They're beautiful. Just things like that. And it gets a giggle from her usually. And then I'll tell her something. And, it gets repetitive every morning, but it's not about what we're saying. Yeah. It's about how we're saying it and how I'm looking at her eyes. Yeah. Love in my heart, and she's getting that. I love that. I love that. And then, and usually he's the one who starts, so I'm at the receipt point and I look at him and he's just so sweet and his intention is so earnest. It isn't just a, he. The energy. So then I feel like, oh, I love you because I love how, what you love and I love, that you're a lover and I love what you're doing with your writing, and I love that cooked a delicious dinner last night and I, so whatever it's that you're feeling that you love about the person, but it's like picking up all the good things that you see. Yeah. It's so interesting how, lovers feel so much of these things, but don't necessarily take the time and space to create a ritual and express and shower each other and nourish each other with how they feel. You have a fantastic way of summarizing and expanding a thought. Everything, even on your, I just wanna, that's pretty amazing ability. Listen, so the second ritual we do is yes, at dinner and we do the evening news. And I, she says, tell me about your day. And I just I don't say it was okay. No. I say I got up in the morning, I did this after I read the paper, I did emails. After I did that, I did, I I did some administrative work, paid some bills, do whatever. Then I started writing. Then I took a break and went to the markets and bought groceries. And I, on and on, and it sounds ridiculously boring, but the idea again, is not the words that I'm saying. It's the fact that I'm communicating with her, which in turn. Generates oxytocin in her. And that's the bonding hormone. And that's what women love to talk is because when they talk, they connect. When they connect, they generate oxytocin and norepinephrine, and then dopamine and a few other things, and that makes 'em feel really good. So the idea of me telling her, Hey is not so much the information, although it can be important. If I got something that's going on that like I'm stuck on my writing right now, I don't know what to do, then she can chip in and help me. And or if I have a problem with this guy I am working with, she can chip in and help me. What I say can be important, but the idea is that we're communicating yes, and we're keeping up that connection and that connection is what's gonna lead to ecstasy and magic in the bedroom. Yes. Yes. I love that. Okay. There's a, the last ritual is before we go to sleep at night, we say three things that we are grateful for or appreciate that day. What's something that we liked about ourselves that day and something that we did for fun that day. And then there's one last ritual, and that's every Sunday is our day of worship. And that worship means tantric ceremony. And every Sunday we take time to do a tantric ceremony. And we do that using those four steps I talk about in the book, the Magical Sex book. Yes. Yes. For listeners who don't have the magical sex books let's review those four steps. And you know how the four steps really distinguish, what can be ordinary sex to really sex magic, which is what the book is about. Yes so I'll give you quickly the four steps and then we can talk about it, please. The first step is pre play. Pre, that's what comes before foreplay. Now most people know what, so we don't go into that too much. Then third is the play. The play be the play, could be oral or vaginal, penis and vagina sex or oral sex or whatever. Yes. And make that final connection. And then you take all that sexual energy that you've just created. And combine that with the energy of your thoughts, which you used to create. And that's like putting booster rockets on your thoughts because you put those thoughts to the universe with all that sexual energy. And having that, your partner holding those same thoughts at that same time. That's. Rocket boost manifestation. In tantric circles, that is the sex magic we're really putting up to the cosmos, this orgasmic energy that's unlike any other as far as creation of manifestation. But Frank, as far as the power of the four steps I, I think most of society. I think most men like the play. I think most women understand the importance of foreplay. I think most of mainstream society doesn't do a lot of pre play, and I think after play. Is this incredibly luscious potential in bonding and connection and communion that just goes out the window because people are so busy or they don't understand the significance and the imprinting in the body and the heart space that that, that could have. Can you speak to the importance of pre play and after play? Yeah. Lemme speak to that. Some clients who need to grow in terms of their relationship and also in terms of their sex. Pre play is like what you do when you're single and you go out on a date. So for play, you're just being with each other. You're just having fun. Yeah. You're just, like in, in business it'd be like schmoozing. Before you do your pitch. Yes. Yes. Anything that you. Sexual. It could be watching something streaming that you love. It could be going for a walk. It could be going for a hike, it could be going for dinner. It could be like we would do in the pujas, the tantric ceremonies. Yes. Dance. Yes. It could be listening to music. It could be, I don't know if you're into, you could be going swimming, whatever it is that you do together. That's fun. Yes. It's fun, it's relaxing, it's bonding. There are no stakes. Just, so that's the importance of pre play. So it isn't okay, let's get down to business and have sex. Or even, let's get down to business and do foreplay, uhhuh, it's giving you that space and time. Be and connect. Yeah. I have to teach that to couples, especially men, in our book, the magical. Appendix on things that you can do. Suggestions that you can use that are simple. The hand on heart exercise where you put your hand, an eye gazing. And just conversation while you're looking at each other, naked, sitting on the bed. It's great. It's great. Yeah. Just kind stuff. But that sets the stage foreplay because. It gets you present in the moment connected to starting to connect to your partner in a way that's gonna lead to the ecstasy. Yeah. That's what we do a lot for pre-plan, breathing. We might spend and just talking sometimes. The emphasis seems to be on really connecting as soul to soul as human to human with, without having sex on the table or as a prelude to it, but just really connecting human to human. Yeah. And this goes back to, like the rituals that you mentioned, the news of the day, and it's all about connecting and communication. So you really take the journey together. Love that. Love that. Yeah. I was gonna, I was gonna mention the appendix in the magical sex book. It's full of. Wonderful pre play foreplay exercises and practices that are body based, that are somatic, so your body's engaged, which is so wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about after play. Play after play. Yes. So we don't have mutual orgasms. I think I've only had one my whole life and I don't even remember with who. Sometimes the idea of striving for a mutual orgasm is distracting. What's really important for guys to get is that she comes first. You have to know the technique and the fact that the clitoris is the most important thing to know about. And yes. I'm just gonna digress for a minute, but there's nine, you probably know this. There's nine pelvic nerves that come down from the brain and they go to different places on different people. That's why no two women are the same, right? And two, no two lives are the same. Some people have very sensitive anus, some people have very sensitive perineum. Some have, it just goes on and on knowing that stuff. And now when you get. Orgasm. She has her orgasm, and we usually have a list of things that we wanna manifest. And when she has her orgasm and she's starting down I say the magical words that, that are gonna help us visualize creating what it is we wanna manifest. Then after her orgasm, then I have my orgasm, whether it's through intercourse or masturbation or whatever. When I have my orgasm again, we go through the ritual of saying the things that we wanna manifest. So now the play is over, we're transitioning into after play. Yes. And usually what happens is I'm laying on my back and she puts her head on my chest and her knee over my midsection and I, my arm is around her and we just laid there cuddled. For 10 or 15 minutes, we may talk. We may not talk. We may doze. We may just breathe together. Just feel that we've already put the magic out into the universe. We let that sexual energy that we just created envelop each other and just take that because it may be another week before we get to, to visit that again. So we want that energy. Us through the next week. Yeah, that's, I, maybe it's 15 minutes, 20 minutes that we spend in play. Yeah. You're really marinating, you're marinating in the energy, which is, sacred. It's a sacred energy and then especially the shared energy is so juicy and pot and powerful. It's almost like wasting. The best part of a meal. It's cleaning up the dishes before you get to taste that juiciness, from the marinade. Sorry, Judith, I interrupted you. No, I love how you listen. I just it's really a trick for me to hear how you listen to stuff and where you go with it. I'm sorry I interrupted you because it's like what you just said, it's like the after play. Yes. What we said, we marinate in how you give it back to us. I love it. We can marinate in the after play now. I was gonna say the first, so that's why they do that. Men, women in the hormone. Yes. Talk about why it's hard for men to have after play. Because especially men Ropa. Yes. When they orgasm, the testosterone, shoots up. It goes down. Yes. So oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone, is what explodes in a man. And he feels all that part of the ecstasy. It's the bonding. Which is chemical of what Oxytocin does. However. Testosterone, oxytocin in men, so they don't feel that very much, but the most they ever feel it is when they orgasm. But very soon the testosterone comes in. And now they're not feeling like bonding. Because they're full of testosterone. Now they wanna go watch a game, or now they wanna go eat, or now they wanna go, they wanna do something. Yeah. Yeah. But for a woman after play is what she always wanted because women are very full of oxytocin all the time. A lot of things trigger oxytocin. Verbal communication is a big one. It's a puppy or a child. In the, it's, it a woman experiences oxytocin, hopefully, if she's having. A life many times a day. And it's very, of course, huge in orgasm. But after the orgasm, it keeps growing. CIN is widening out like, and this oxytocin has now been shut off and replaced by testosterone. So for a man to have after play. It's for many men, like a learned response. It's something they have to condition themselves to. It's something they have to be vulnerable to or open themselves to feel. Now men who have been through, which is also discussed, and so that's how they do that. Men, women in their hormones, that's why they do that. Yeah. Are low on testosterone. And when they get low on testosterone, they get high on estrogen and oxytocin. Which is why men mellow at that age is why men wanna connect more. It's why they're more sensitive. It's why they want more emotional meaning to their life. And we were talking about this before, there's testosterone replacement, so a man doesn't have to. Oh, one of the things I did wanna say, if the man doesn't do testosterone replacement by 58, he has more estrogen than a 58-year-old woman. Wow. Who's gone through menopause because she doesn't have. Her estrogen and oxytocin are way down. She's not producing it. But he is. Why they say, gee, women get harder, men get softer. Now all of this, in this mix comes, you do bioidentical hormone, replacement hormone, both for men or women. But even with that, I think, and I actually should find out men. Replacement. Still have so much more oxytocin that they mellow and they become richer on that level. I know Frank did. Anyhow, that's why, getting back to your question about after play, yeah. It's hard for men who are younger to do that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Judith and Frank's book around the hormones, it's just rich and filled with. I think information that everyone that, we should learn it like math with like math, English, and science. It's something our bodies go through and it affects us so profoundly. Again, the book. So that's why they do that about men, women, and hormones. So guys, I wanted to, I wanted you to cover something because I'm sure you see it a lot when you're coaching couples. The book, the Magical Sex Book. Really goes through erogenous anatomy so thoroughly oral breath, multiple orgasm practices. It's really wonderful. And as we spoke to earlier, it's really the intimate connection, the heart to heart communion that kind of carries that sexual ecstasy. The question I have for you guys is for couples who have been together for. Many years, maybe many decades, and have fallen into limiting intimacy patterns. How do you support and coach them to reinventing or rebirthing not only the sexual intimacy, but the, relational, emotional love affair? Because I see this a lot with clients, been married, 15, 20 years, they get into a routine. They get into patterns sexually where they feel like they're in a box. I've run into that too and I tell people, you have to create it. You have to create it. It's not gonna happen, right? It's not gonna happen unless you both are committed to making a change. The intentionality has to be there from both of them. You have to. We really wanna do what's gonna turn you on, right? 'cause everybody says I don't feel any desire. That's normal. The desire's not there because at this stage of our life, it takes arousal. Desire. Desire doesn't create arousal. So if you do the things that you do to reconnect on a higher level than you've ever done before, we're in our, the third act of our life. What do we want to do here? And what can we do together? How can we support each other in doing what we wanna do to keep ourselves engaged and live in the process of life? And part of that is sex. Yes. And if we do the thing on Sunday morning, I may have zero sexual desire, but we have a commitment to meet in the bedroom with our clothes off. And go through those steps, and then desire appears because the connection between us. Yes. I know every inch of her body. Yes. And I can, it isn't like it's a new thing for me. What's. What's beyond that is the reach of her heart. To my heart. Yeah. Which goes right down to my genitals. Yeah. And that's, you have to be conscious. And you have to create it on a daily basis and pre play actually starts immediately after the last orgasm. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. It goes on and on. And that's what our rituals are all about. It's just a disguised pre. Yeah. I love that. I think that's so powerful because, in rituals, the bo the, the body has its memory. There are somatic patterns that, that get, get imprinted in our touch receptors that will then respond, based on its memory. So these rituals are so important, and I love that you brought up, that weekly ritual, whether no matter what mood you're in, because then the body, it gives the body a chance to come online, and then the desire can really come on con, come online as well. There's, I love the thing that. We used to say, suit up and show up. So in this case it's uns up, get naked and show up. Yeah. Again, ally after menopause a lot of women get very dry. Yes. And painful. When you do for me it's bioidentical hormone replacement. It say yes. Yes. Yes, that's helpful, but it, but even with that, your body isn't producing it, so you're putting something onto your body. A cream. So it's, but it's not the same as when you produce it yourself, it just isn't. Yes. And you don't have a cycle, a fertility cycle. Where every month, at the middle of the month, you're fertile. So the body is full of desire and wants connection. It's automatic. It's you're, you're hot in the middle of the. There are no, there isn't a cycle. So when you're in a long-term relationship, you don't have a cycle happening. You don't have the same kind of hormones you. You had before. And for me especially after the cancer, so that could be in the chemo, so that could have been also part of it. That desire just isn't there automatically at all. Created. And is you could, not only can you create it, but with Frank, I've had even after the cancer and after. Menopause. I've had the most fulfilling, most beautiful, most ecstatic sex of my life. Created by us. It wasn't, yes. Didn't automatically come with a fertile. Who didn't necessarily have to be conscious, but if you are a fertile young woman and you're conscious, oh my God, what, the potential there. But Judith, I think what you're saying is so important for listeners to understand, especially couples who've been in long-term marriages and feel like the in, the intimacy isn't happening anymore. It really takes conscious intentionality. It takes practice, ritual, and, experiences to, to fuel the desire, to support the desire and the body can respond in kind. And I think it's so inspiring what you said earlier, post menopause, post cancer and chemo. You're, you've experienced the best sex of your life with Frank and you're in your prime golden years, which is just so fantastic. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Golden years. Oh, yes. I'm saying every morning when I get up and go, oh God, everything hurts. Your pri, I should call 'em your prime years. Because sexually you are in your prime years. Which brings me to my next question as far as rituals and practices and really like sexual self care. There are a lot of exercises and practices in the appendix of the magical sex book. What are some things that you would recommend to listeners who are also in their golden years and don't consider themselves in their primal sex years? What advice do you have for them to get in to fuel the desire to really take care of their bodies so that they are primed to have the best sex of their life? I, for me, I, that being in physical shape? Yes. It's important to me. I, yes, and I wanna, I wake up every morning and the first thing I do is go do, oh, maybe 10 minutes of exercise, some pushups, some planks some stretches. Great. And, just enough to get my body moving. And I know Judith has a half hour ritual of yoga that she does every morning right after she gets up. So keeping our bodies fluid and yes. Alive fibers, yes. It's really important because if your body doesn't wanna work, it's not gonna happen. So doing that, and then as far as man goes, my, my sexual appetite has always been high. Yeah. And ju it's much higher than Judas, so especially after the chemo. Yeah. I don't put pressure on her uhhuh to meet my sexual demands. I take care of myself and whether I watch porn or however, I do self stimulate and I do, sometimes I don't ejaculate. I'll just get to the point where I think they call it edging. Yes. Where I'm close to the brink of orgasm but I don't go over the brink. Sometimes I don't. But the idea is keeping. Those channels open. Yes. And as a friend of mine says, you have to celebrate Eros every day. And arrows is the life force energy. Yes. And to me, it's a source. It's a source of creative energy because sex. Is the source of creation. We create human beings through sex. So if you use that sexual energy to empower your brain and from the top trip practices, we can take that sexual energy from down in the first shopper and bring it up to the top chara. And that's what creative energy flows. Yes. You older guys like me, put that into your your toolkit, yes. Just think about it. I'm not depending on Judith for my sexual fulfillment. I'm in charge of my own sexual fulfillment. And women have to be that way themselves If they're, if their guy is not up to doing it as often as they want it, there's nothing to stop and the hand reaches exactly into the right place and you can go take care of that stuff however you wanna do it. Whether it's buy a hand or buy toys or whatever. But the idea is keep that aeros energy awake. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it, it is different anyway. Men and women are different anyway. Like I said, desire isn't something that I feel. I occasionally feel it, but it's very occasionally. It's, it's created. To be honest, getting older and I'm gonna go back. Things changed me a lot after the cancer. Yes. The chemo was difficult. It took me about six years to feel normal. I see. And I've never felt. As good afterward as I felt before I had cancer. And so as you get older too, a lot of things can happen to your body, so there can be a little bit of a struggle or a challenge in getting yourself to even feel good. When I even took a about step. Which is saying getting up that day and being able to feel good enough to live that day. And every day I need to psych myself, honestly. In the morning when I wake up. I have to say, okay, this is how my body feels and I know I feel better once I do my exercise. I know I'm gonna feel better after breakfast. I know once the day goes rolling, it's gonna be good. I just gotta get myself, I have to talk myself into it. I have to set my goals for the day. What's gonna happen today? Oh, today's a great day. We're gonna talk to Ralphie. That's gonna be so much fun and I love him. That kind of thing. So part for some women, depending on how well they are and what's happening with their body in terms of self care is really that kind of thing. Being touching their body doing whatever they can to heal it. I have good doctors. The various things I try to. And I, we, I go a lot to the doctor for various things. Feel good and to feel optimum. I do yoga. First thing in the morning. Make sure I keep, have good dental hygiene. Sure. All those things for self care in terms of an old woman. Yeah. So that a, you can live the next day, yep. And B, you are taking responsibility for, where your body is and what it needs, and doing the best you can. Nutrition, right? Yeah. And also mental health. Ensure that you're doing the things that. Make you feel better and positive? Yes. Making sure that like either talking yourself into it or if, taking a walk or doing your yoga or taking a run or whatever it is. Seeing your grandkids, whatever it is that elevates your mood. Yes. You make sure you do it. It's like the whole part of how do you, what, how do you create ecstatic sex? You create it. Yeah. It doesn't just automatically to you, especially in old age, older age. Nothing. I can tell you this. Nothing comes automatically to me an older age, Uhhuh. It's like I'm really busy creating everything. I'm creating my health. I'm creating my, emotional, mental wellbeing. I'm busy creating my relationship. The thing that does come easy though, is my counseling to be truthful. And more and more my art. But that's only by the time I get to them, I've already psyched myself up. I've taken care of my body. Yeah. I've eaten my breakfast. I, make sure I'm out in the air. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the kind of self-care yeah. Mindful. Yeah. And being intentional and I hear from both of you how important self-care and self generating self-care is. Frank, I love what you shared about, taking care of your own sexual eros and needs and making sure the energy is circulating and the. I mean with that, the, the blood flow is circulating, the tissues are vibrant, the nerves are responsive. And Judith, it sounds like you're being very honest with yourself, being very compassionate with yourself and being very supportive of yourself, emotionally, physically and always. And it sounds the rituals that you guys practice and enjoy, the love making as an expression of this heart to heart, communion and connection. Like it, it's all an expression of your commitment to the relationship and something you know, really higher than each of you. Guys, it's been so inspiring to speak with you. How can people find you? How can people get in touch with you and get your, get ahold of your books? We have a website because I was a fighter pilot. The website is called Top Gun Love All one word com, top Gun Love. Easy to remember. Top gun love.com. And the reason we call it that is because. If people were to practice their love making Yes. Like top gun pilots practice their craft. Yeah. Wouldn't that be amazing? Amazing. Wouldn't that? We had that kind of training and practice for our relationships and our love. So it's about having the discipline and the commitment to study and practice. What's gonna make you a top lover? Love it. So love com and we're also on Amazon, the Magical Sex book. And both of you both of you coach and counsel, individuals and couples in love, sex and intimacy. Is that accurate? Yes. I also do I do personal career and relate and also. Personal career and relationship and sexual. So for me, a lot of times it could even be one or a combination or all guys happy New Year. It's great to see you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I love this so much. Love you too, Ryan. So wonderful to talk with you and to see your face and to see your eyes. That energy, everybody that he. Best. Ah, thank you. Thank you. I love you guys. I'd love to get together, have dinner sometime in February and and catch up in person. Let us know, okay? Will do. Notice how you're feeling in your body right now. What sensations and feelings are coming into your awareness? How is this episode landing for you in your body? Might there be daily rituals you would like to introduce and share with your spouse? Lover, erotic friend or with yourself or maybe rituals for pre play, for play, the play and after play that you feel intrigued to explore as extended love making solo. Or with a partner, Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Deep Intimacy & Connection, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships --- ### [Consent, Birth & Reclaiming Body Authority](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-birth-medicine-body-authority/) **Published:** March 19, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we listen for the deep and authentic wisdom of our body’s inner knowing, whilst benefitting from the expertise of the Western medical paradigm? Dr. Jennifer Lang, an obstetrician and gynecologist with a specialty in gynecologic oncology, shares how her experience of surrendering to the authority of her own body’s wisdom during her natural birth radically changed her approach to obstetrics. We also discuss the vital role of consent - both in the medical setting and in intimate realms - which her 2nd book, "Consent," explores from the perspective of teen-agers navigating intimacy, sexuality, and honoring their boundaries. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Consent, Birth & Reclaiming Body Authority # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how birth experiences shape consent, body autonomy, and relational patterns with Dr. Jennifer Lang, OB/Gyn. You’ll learn how early imprints influence boundaries, trust, and embodied authority. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrJenniferLang.jpg "DrJenniferLang | Rahi Chun") [Dr. Jennifer Lang](https://jenniferlangmd.com/) [ConsentTheBook.com](https://consentthebook.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Jennifer Lang, MD, received her medical education at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, where she received the Dean’s Award: “Holding Promise for the Future of Medicine.” She completed her residency in Obstetrics and Gynecology at St. Luke’s/Roosevelt Hospital Center of Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York City, then fellowship in gynecologic oncology at UCLA. She practiced as a board-certified ob-gyn and gynecologic oncologist, specializing in integrative and preventative medicine, minimally invasive and robotic surgery. In 2013, she cofounded an international medical nonprofit that delivers cervical cancer prevention services to women in resource-poor countries. Since then, the nonprofit has grown to support 80 clinics spanning Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, and Central America. She is the author of The Whole 9 Months: a Week-By-Week Pregnancy Nutrition Guide with Recipes for a Healthy Start, and Consent: Every Teen’s Guide to Healthy Sexual Relationships. She is the Director of Health & Wellness at Range Media Partners and the blessed mother of three intelligent (and slightly precocious) kids who always ask the hardest questions. ## What You’ll Learn About Consent, Birth Trauma & Body Autonomy $ “Medical doctors come from one perspective and it’s *one* – it needs to be carefully considered and balanced and filled out with other voices to get a whole and complete picture…. And if something ever feels wrong, I really want to encourage every patient to pursue answers – to pursue knowledge from as many sources as it takes until you arrive at an answer that aligns with that inner voice….” $ How to listen to the authentic wisdom of your body whilst engaging with the Western medical paradigm. $ How Dr. Lang’s self-attended natural birthing experience radically changed her approach to obstetrics for her clients. $ How hypno-birthing invited her to get out of the fear/pain cycle of the brain, and drop into the present moment of what the body is actually experiencing – and how connecting to her breath allowed for states of deep relaxation and bliss during her births $ How phenomenal midwives and doulas are as allies to honor the natural birthing process of the body and serving as a bridge with a medical system and staff. $ How medical doctors are undertrained in the entire realm of human sexuality – the body’s natural healthy sexual responses, pleasures and orgasms. $ How medical doctors can be limited in the scope of their recommendations based on the parameters of their training and licensure. $ How “Consent” – Jenn’s 2nd book for teens and young adults was inspired, and how she reclaimed her own voice for consent whilst channeling its content. ## ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [How the Wheel of Consent and embodied boundaries can transform intimate relating](https://rahichun.com/podcast/wheel-of-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How Somatic Consent and touch awareness bring safety and trust in relating](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How nervous system safety is pivotal to trauma healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/heal-trauma-regulate-nervous-system/) [How consent, race, and embodied sexuality can intersect in ways affecting transcendent sexuality](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-race-sacred-sexuality/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were ever taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's episode, we invite Dr. Jennifer Lang, a highly trained western obstetrician and gynecologist with a specialty in gynecologic oncology, to explore how we can listen and honor our body's authority whilst in engaging and benefiting from the expertise of the Western medical paradigm. Jen shares how surrendering to the authority of her own body's wisdom during her natural birth radically changed her approach to obstetrics. We discussed the vital role of consent, both in the medical setting. As well as in intimate settings, especially for teens and young adults, which her second book consent addresses and how channeling this book was a profound healing and reclamation of her own voice. Today I am very happy to invite Dr. Jennifer Lang to the podcast. Dr. Lang is a mother to three amazing human beings. They are precocious and intelligent, and witty and creative and wonderful. She's also a trained obstetrician and gynecologists specializing in gynecologic oncology. With a focus on integrative and preventative medicine which resulted in flow, a woman's integrative wellness practice. She co-founded an international medical nonprofit delivering cervical cancer prevention services to women in resource poor countries, and she's the author of two books the whole nine months, a Week by Week Pregnancy Nutrition Guide and Consent. Every teens guide to healthy sexual relationships. Jen, thanks so much for being with us today. I am so happy to be here and I always enjoy our conversations and I can't wait to see where this one goes. Awesome. Yeah, me too. Me too. So Jen, because the theme of this podcast is all about supporting people to restore, reclaim, and realize their organic sexual wellness and vibrancy. I really wanted to invite a conversation with a medical professional so we can understand what are the limitations? What are the benefits? Like, how can listeners navigate really benefiting from the medical expertise of their, medical care providers whilst really having the authority in listening to their body's authentic wisdom and guidance as well. And I thought a great starting off point would be to invite you to share about your your first birth, your first birthing experience, because I find it fascinating that as a trained obstetrician you pretty much took it into your own hands. You really honored the authority of what your body was saying. In the timing, in the way Sheila was delivered and how you went about that. Yeah, I think it is a good jumping off point because for me, I think personally and professionally, it marked a a transition in every way it marked a transition, right? Like becoming a mother is. Probably the greatest identity shakeup that like I could ever imagine going through. But also as somebody in the field trained in obstetrics gynecology, I. Learned so much going through that experience myself, and it radically changed my approach to birthing from then on. I guess just to tell the story. Yeah. I'd been trained, in a pretty normal conservative la labor floor, like a regular residency program in New York, with the exception that the hospital I did my residency in had an a birthing floor, like a birthing center, one floor below the regular labor floor, and that floor was completely midwife run. And so I did have the experience. We really didn't attend births down there. I'd seen, the way they had a bed, like a real bed, like a bed you could imagine sleeping in as opposed to a hospital bed, and it felt more like a home and everything was quieter and more relaxed. I'd been down there, but really my only experience of patients were if they'd been transferred from the birth, the birthing center, up to the labor floor, because something had gone, off in a way. So I never really got to observe a natural birth in a birthing center midwife run. However, when I became pregnant I went to a obstetrician, an md and she was pregnant too, and she had referred patients to this hypnobirthing class with a wonderful hypnotherapist that we both know Alicia and temporary and, I was six weeks pregnant at the time, but I was a big overachiever and I wanted to be prepared. And so I started hypnobirthing at six weeks pregnant. And I actually, during the course of that pregnancy, I took the class three times. I just kept taking it and. The reason I did that was that I saw that hypnobirthing is a practice, like a yoga practice, and the more you practice it, the more comfortable and natural the process becomes. So it's really about, my version of Hypnobirthing is that it's about getting out of the fear pain cycle in the brain and dropping down into the body and into the present moment with what. You are actually experiencing not what someone is telling you're going to experience or what you might be afraid you might experience, but what you're actually experiencing. And using connecting to the breath in order to go into a state of deep relaxation. And it worked so well for me, I took the class three times, and then on the night that I went into labor with Sheila, it was a full moon and I was, using my breathing. And I love everything about hypnobirthing. I love the way that. They change the language so that they don't, they talk about surges, not contractions. And so I was visualizing, like riding these waves, these surges of energy and each surge was bringing my baby closer to me. And so I experienced this just state of. Deep bliss. And I've come to understand, some people use the term orgasmic birth. I don't think I had like involuntary rhythmic pelvic injections, but I definitely was in full on blis out, and I was swimming through my labor yeah, under the full moon. And all of a sudden I felt. My, my intention the whole time was to go to the hospital and have a routine birth in the hospital. But I was so relaxed that all of a sudden I, I felt rectal pressure and I checked myself and I was, eight centimeters dilated. We went to the hospital and I was a fellow at the time, so I felt very comfortable kinda. Just, to be frank, giving orders, so I was in, in the mode where like I was the doctor that gave orders to people. And so it just was I rolled into the labor floor and I was like, I want that. I don't want that. I don't want that. So I just, I refuse the. Iv, I refused a blood draw. I allowed them to auscultate the fetal heart rate with a Doppler externally. And I heard a beautiful acceleration in Sheila's heart rate. Yeah, during a contraction, which is a great sign that the baby's tolerating labor just beautifully. And I said, okay, please everyone leave the room. And I ran a bath in the tub and Cedars doesn't do water births, but I got into that bath and I received her into my own arms. And it was and immediately to the breast. And it was a absolutely beautiful, just quiet, calm experience. My, my doctor had her baby a few weeks before and she was back at work. But she. At the hospital before Sheila was already in my arms. Wow. It was self attended? Yeah. To be clear, there was a midwife who was present on the labor floor at the time, and she quietly came in and said. I've been present at many water births. I'm here if you need me. And then she stepped back and just allowed me to have my birth experience which was so beautiful. And, and then basically I was out of there in 12 hours, wow. And I just and that's, that felt right for me. And so when I after living that experience and knowing that it was possible to have a painless, blissful, natural birth and how comfortable I was at home, and really the only moment. That I experienced any kind of stress was tr transferring to the hospital, you which was just like getting into a car. I, I wanted to stay in that beautiful pool under the full moon. But so when I had my second and my third, I had planned midwife, attended home births, and that was. The way I did it. But after seeing that, that was possible, after feeling that in my body I really wanted to let my patients know that this was an option. Wow. That this was possible. So I. Many patients if they wanted to get pregnant, I would present the full range of birthing options for them, which would be, from a home birth to a birthing center, to a labor floor. And really we would. Explore, their feelings about birth, any concerns they might have, what felt right to them? What was their intuition telling them? And we would find the birth, plan that felt right and authentic to who they were. And though I myself as an obstetrician did not attend any home births I did back up home birth midwives. So if they had patients laboring at home who needed some kind of medical intervention, I was happy to accept their care when they transferred to the hospital and try to continue the same. Ethic of the birthing experience. So calm, quiet, not like revving up the stress levels, but, and even if they needed a C-section, I did something I called a hypno C-section where, you know, the or was dark and we just have the one light over the baby. And when. As long as the baby wasn't in distress, she would go or he would go straight to the mother's breast while she was on the table. And all of these things I felt were really important and also just part of the full range of options. And for me, the heart of what this conversation is about is, I think, is letting women know that they have a full range of options and that they are. Always the the leader, the guide the director of their experience. Never taking away their autonomy or authority, but rather working in partnership with each individual to find the experience that's right for her. And you know what, as I'm saying this I realize I'm using. Female pronouns. And I do want this conversation to be as inclusive as possible, and I'm sorry if I, it's just old patterns that I'm trying to, but anyone with reproductive organs is capable of, of giving birth, yeah. Female. That first birth when, I mean birthing Sheila, sounds like it was so blissful. It sounds like it was so amazing and how Yeah. Yeah, I love the way your body really took charge of the situation. You were a fellow there and it is your, field of professional training. So you knew, I'm guessing what was safe, what was within kind of the parameters of safety. But at the same time, you really did surrender to your body's authority and what it knew felt right. Yeah. And it's so interesting, the words you just used surrendered to my body's authority. And we live in such a culture that is so like brain, it privileges the brain and we think of a separation between brain and body, right? But there is. Deep wisdom held in places in the body, other than the brain, as yeah. As you experience in your work every day, and I knew, I have a tendency to get really busy in my head and to make plans and to set goals and really birthing you. You want the opposite of that. I needed to get out of my head and get out of my own way and surrender to the wisdom of my body that knows what to do. And I believe that, all women's bodies know what to do. Unfortunately we have. Medicalized birth, and we have we've medicalized, a lot of natural body processes and lost a lot of that wisdom and, we don't really talk about the wisdom of the body, the authority of the body. And in fact, even if you think about the language we use oh, who delivered your baby? You delivered your baby, and so I. I don't know. I really think that there is a lot to be done to return that wisdom and authority back to the body where it, Yeah. Has always resided. Really, it's it's, it's not true that it ever leaves us. It's just sure. We're told to take orders from other people. We need to remember that. We need to begin here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like the hypnobirthing and doing three rounds of it starting from six weeks. Yes. That was like, 'cause it's profound, Jen, because you, it really trained you to be with your senses and with your body and being with your body. You were you were able to listen to your body so clearly. I'm, I wanna. Ask you about that. Given that, we know that our body's wisdom knows beyond the mind, and knowing that in situations of stress we will become hypervigilant and leave our body and go into, the mind. I'm just wondering, in hospital births when a client is feeling. I've just heard stories of induced labor C-sections are based on the bottom line and efficiency of a hub hospital is run, the cutting of the umbilical cord before the infant is really used to their new environment and their way of breathing like. All of these things feel like they are not honoring the authority of the body. What advice would you have for listeners who do have a planned hospital birth or want to, take advantage of the expertise of a hospital, but also wanna honor the authority of their body? I think that, for low risk pregnancies where there isn't a complicating medical condition midwives are phenomenal. Midwives have a whole different. Perspective on birth. It is much more normalized. It is less medicalized. They treat it as a natural process that doesn't need to be messed with until there is a clear indication for an intervention in which case, they're well-trained to recognize when those interventions are needed and how to proceed. But if you. Begin with a practitioner whose entire ethic and training is about a respectful non medicalized birth. Chances are that things will proceed that way. And if you look at the C-section rates of, midwives who have hospital births, they're lower than obstetricians who have hospital births, even controlling for medical. Complications, and sometimes it's hard to compare those statistics, right? Because if you're separating out saying, oh, all the normal pregnancies go over here, and midwives take care of them, and all the high risk pregnancies go over here, you're gonna have a differential in your C-section rate. But even controlling for those complications midwives do have, greater success at vaginal births. Yeah. I've heard stories of midwives or of birth deliveries where the midwife is, is really playing the bridge or the go between. The patient or the mother or the couple and the kind of the medical staff or the doctor. Yes. They can do that also. Doulas can. Can play that role. And doulas are wonderful or can be wonderful at being that translator. And also so the doctor using their medical terminology, which, we tend to do, we're trained to get right to it. And we're also trained to look at a situation and assess, the 10 worst things that could possibly happen and then start. Per performing interventions so that those things don't happen. That's just how we're trained. But a doula can be the recipient of that medical speak and then in a way, shield or protect the patient from that high stress in a presentation and explain in a more calming, soothing way. What are the. What are the choices? What are the options at that time? So I'm a big fan of doulas. Had you decided to go to a hospital and do a hospital birth what would not have been available to you compared to giving births to your second and third child at home? Yeah. So Nico, my second child, he was born at my labor, lasted 90 minutes and it was a thunder and lightning storm. Wow. Just a complete deluge of rain. And he came into the world with that energy just wow. And so it, if I'm thinking about it, if I had tried to go to a hospital, it would've just, the pace of that birth would've been so rushed, with recognizing that I was in labor and trying to get myself to a hospital and into a room and deliver him, it would've been a very different experience, but because I was able to be, stay relaxed and in my tub at home with my water and my candles and my relaxation music I was able to just let that process again, surrender to the force of that process and receive him, in a state of calm. Which was wonderful. And then funny enough, Sophia, my third was also born on a full moon. That was also a. Quite a quick labor. And I did have some medical intervention with her birth just in the sense that I had tested GBS positive, so I needed a dose of antibiotics. But so again, if I had gone to a hospital, there would've been all kinds of protocols about GBS and I would've probably had an IV placed. But, with a midwife, I was able to just get the infusion and then be. Completely free, completely and unattached to any poles or tubing so that I was able to move my body, get into the positions that my body told me I needed to to form in order to allow her to pass through the birth canal. I'm really. I feel very blessed that I had the training. I knew I felt confident. Let's just say I felt confident that I could relax and get out of my own way. Turn the experience over to my body and also to the care of my. Wonderful. Incredibly well-trained and experienced midwife who had, by the way, over her 30 year career, had delivered thousands of babies many fold, more than I ever delivered. And just had such a deep wisdom and knowledge and understanding of the process and also of human psychology. She was really a master of just, with all of her patients keeping them calm, keeping them centered, and making them feel comfortable and supported. Yeah. Sounds like after thousands of deliveries, she was really a master at space holding. Yeah. Space holding. That's a great way of putting it. And that's the role I think of that's the role of a birth attendant is to hold space for the woman to have her process. I wanna ask you, Jen so as a gynecologist now, what are situations that you've seen over the years where a patient will assume that an OB GYN will know certain realms like within their training, when in fact that's not really part of their training? I remember speaking with you once about. Sexual pleasure and arousal and how, patients assume that their O-B-G-Y-N can respond to questions about a lack of pleasure or orgasm, and that it's actually a very small part of the training. Yeah, I think that is the prime example of something that OBGYNs are, NGY oncologists are really undertrained in the entire realm of understanding human sexuality, human sexual response, a pleasure, orgasm, all of those things. And. It's just not emphasized, the, we know the anatomy, but I'm not sure that we are given a full understanding of the complexity of the, of. The intersection between the anatomy and the psychology or the entirety of the human experience. And we think very mechanistically and very anatomically there are precancerous cells on the cervix and so we think we should cut off. The outer part of the cervix to remove the precancerous cells, and that seems very reasonable if you just think of the cervix as potential cancer germin, carrier. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But if you think of the cervix, as, some people call it like the X spot for or an orgasmic trigger. Maybe you're not just gonna take a loop electrode and go cutting off a part of it, maybe. You are gonna think more about the full range and spectrum of options to dealing with those precancerous cells before you just go and remove them. And yeah I think that there are. A lot of things that we are really not taught in medical school residency, fellowship, that are deeply important to the lived experience of our patients. That should be part of the conversations when we are counseling about risks, benefits, options, and alternatives for every single gynecologic procedure and condition. For listeners who do want to receive the support in that kind of integrated, holistic way. It sounds like the integrative women's clinic that you created with Flow was like that model. And I'm guessing that there, I'm hoping that there're more models like that out here now than maybe there were just 10 or 20 years ago. Yeah, I think that there is an evolving consciousness within the medical community to look at, integrative practice to consider more about, sexual health, but. I also think that there, there are just some things that a allopathic, western trained medical doctor is going to be good at and some things that they're not going to be good at. And I think that there is a lot of room for complimentary practitioners such as yourself to be that InBetween, to be that translator to, to help empower women to advocate for themselves to really support their voices in that conversation. If there's any message that I really hope that our listeners today, absorb it, it's that, medical doctors come from one perspective. It's one, it's not the be all, end all. And I do believe that it needs to be carefully considered and balanced and filled out with some other voices to get a hole in complete picture. And if something ever. Feels wrong. I really wanna encourage every every woman, every patient to to pursue answers, to, to pursue knowledge. From as many sources as it takes until you arrive at a an answer that aligns with that inner voice. It's so important, and that's what I always hoped my patients would do. I never wanted to feel like I was directing them or pushing them or towards something that didn't feel fully aligned with who they are. Yeah. Yeah. I. I have a technical question, and that is, like last week I had Kelly Garza on who's the creator of Steamy Chick, the vaginal steaming company, and she shared that a turning point in her, like she recognized when she was, when there were a lot of articles about like by OBGYNs who were saying Don't vaginal steam that, like it becomes a liability for a doctor to recommend something that is not under the auspices of, I guess the a MA or, and I just wanted to clarify that, Jen, if something is if a woman is having heavy bleeding, is a hysterectomy recommended, because that's within the auspices of, what OBGYNs are trained for and vaginal steaming is not recommended because that isn't part of their training. So she's absolutely correct and a lot of doctors I think are afraid to be perceived as approving of or advocating for anything that isn't within their. Purview, that isn't part of what we consider evidence-based medicine. But there are many healing traditions that work outside of that model. And just because they are outside of that model, to me personally, I don't believe that it just automatically negates their value. That's not. The way I approach the world. So again I know that, I am an md I am trained in one way, and it is not the only way. Whenever I'm considering, I hear about something like vaginal steaming. I think of, first of all I don't. Really care what I'll just be frank, like other MDs can think what they want to of me, it doesn't bother me. I have already stepped outside enough of that, straight and narrow path where their opinion of me is inconsequential, right? Yeah, so I feel freed, liberated to give my honest and complete opinion on the matter. I don't feel confined out of fear, which is, reasonable. If you think about it, like if somebody has trained for decades to make money and support their family by practicing a certain way, and then if you lose your medical license because you are determined to be, practicing outside of the scope of your specialty, or you. You lose your ability to support your family. So there's nothing wrong with that. But we just have to understand, where physicians are completely free to, to give their honest and true opinion on something and where they will hesitate and try not to stray into a realm where they could be accused of advocating for something that is not within the scope of their practice. We also have to remember that. Women are coming to healers with a whole lifetime history. Sometimes of trauma. Often of trauma, of course. Sure. And if I really think about that one patient that I was just, calling, she had some trauma in her past and she had been re-traumatized by doctors, she was listening to her voice, which told her, stay away from medical doctors. They will hurt you. That's really unfortunate. And I think something that we as medical doctors need to remember that, we haven't always been the gentlest, we haven't always been the most respectful. And there are many people who approach us with a lot of hesitancy and skepticism, and that's just the truth. We have to have some humility that our profession has been a part of some. Really unfortunate and sometimes even brutal things. So we have to understand that there are many reasons why a woman might be very hesitant to come see an OB, GYN and might feel more comfortable with an alternative practitioner. And we have to do our best to stop that cycle of trauma and, to approach every time that we speak with a patient, touch a patient that it is, with active informed consent at every step. And that hasn't been part of the training for many MDs. Yeah. That brings us to your second book. Consent, which I have right here. Oh, look at that. Yeah. Consent certainly within the medical profession is super important. I think people are so used to doctors. I took my mom to a podiatrist and the podiatrist started like removing a callus on her foot without even asking her, I think there's this, so just like even beyond contact, like engaging in, in a procedure. But I wanna bring it to your book, which is really guided to support. Teens with kind of the sexual education that we never got. And that teens today, I think feel a real void around especially around consent and boundaries. I would love, 'cause I know the writing, the book was quite a process for you. Can you share, Jen, what inspired you to write this book on consent and how was the journey for you? Yeah, it was quite the journey. And another one of those branching off points for me professionally. I was, trying to actually launch a tech company at the time with a wearable that was trying to address the issue of incapacitation, assault, particularly on college campuses. And this is usually related to binge drinking or blackout drinking with alcohol. And and. As I go into in the book, somebody who is in a blackout does not ha or unconscious, does not have the capacity to give consent for any sexual activity. It struck me that here we are in the 21st century with no, with all of modern technology and no way to know if someone is too impaired to give consent. And I just thought that is a real need. We should have a way of, of knowing if we think somebody is giving us consent to know are they actually capable of giving consent at this time? Because, we all have had experience with drunk people. Some people hold it together pretty well, even though they are absolutely in a blackout. They will have no memory of any conversation that you're having with them at that moment. So I developed this wearable. During the course of my research and I was running focus groups with many teenagers and talking to them about the, what education had they had on the topic of consent, and I was just appalled at what I was hearing, that it was barely mentioned. And it just deemphasized, most sex ed in America. When you have it at all, because there are many states where there is no sexual education required in the curriculum at all. So even when it is presented, the focus is really on, how to avoid pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections. Where, to me, like the most important thing, the fundamental like beginning. Place for any sexual activity needs to be the consent conversation. And that will naturally roll into conversation about what birth control method are we going to use, or what barrier method are we going to employ to, risk mitigate against STIs. So it has to begin with consent, but consent is rare, so rarely even, mentioned. So hearing this, I was like, okay, what resources are out there? So I started looking at, the textbooks on the subject, and I would find a paragraph in the midst of, a 400 page book, a paragraph buried in the middle that talked about the importance of getting consent. And I'm like no. This needs to be the beginning. And so I, I wrote the book, but on a personal level, it was incredibly transformative for me because I myself, am a survivor and I myself have had a lot of challenges finding my voice. So I am one of those. People, they talk about flight fight or freeze. So I, my nervous system tends to go into freeze and I. Lock down, I lose the ability to to speak or articulate. And so for me, working through this in book form was so healing for my own internal journey of finding my voice and finding that, that healing, and we're talking about trauma that happened decades ago that I had held onto for so long. And through this work I was finally able to release and let go and Wow. So I. Again, to your listeners it's possible. It's possible to heal after decades. I didn't know that it was going to be possible, but I can tell you that I am a different person than I was before I wrote that book. And it's funny, I felt during the writing of the book, I almost had the sensation of it being channeled at so times, where I would see. On my computer screen that I had written, things that I knew were absolutely true, but would never have come to my conscious mind. It was as if it was the exactly the message that I needed to hear and I needed to learn and absorb coming out through my hands. So I was I was a student as much as the, a creator of that book. Yeah. And it also sounds like in addition to being a student and the channel, the creator it. It brought you out of freeze and you found your voice. You found in writing the book and voicing the book for all, a teenage audience. You got to say what maybe your body has wanted to say for decades. Yeah, that's so well put. I think that's exactly what happened. And, it's a book and a message that I so wish I had access to in my emerging sexuality. And I. I feel really blessed that the teens coming of age now, have access to, material like this. And it's one of, I feel like this book was written shortly after the beginning of the Me Too movement. And I feel like since then there's just been a flood of wonderful. Resources coming online podcasts television series that explore the topic. It's so much more a part of our cultural conversation than it was just a handful of years ago. Yeah. But coming back to your personal experience, Chen it, like when you share how you're a different person having written the book, what do you, I'm just curious, what do you notice within your beha? What did you mean when you said that? Because in my mind I'm like, okay. In situations where she may not have asserted her consent and boundaries. Now she has such, it's like it's in your bones now. There's such, such an awareness around gray areas. What maybe may have seemed like gray areas. I'm curious what you meant by, like, how do you feel like you're a different person now? In what situations? In every way, but so I had a as you and I have talked about on a personal level I've had experiences with massage therapists where they have they have crossed boundaries in the, in my past and I went into freeze mode and and I was unable to say something at the time that it was happening, even though it was. It's very upsetting to me and I would never see that therapist again once that boundary, had been crossed. Now. Have I been to a male massage therapist since? No, but I do feel like if I did and I felt like a boundary was being crossed, I just know that I would say something. I just know that my reaction would be different that I would speak up and advocate for myself, and I would be like, Hey, you know that's, this doesn't seem right. Stop. And before I was trapped in this feeling like I didn't want to offend somebody, I didn't wanna make them uncomfortable. I would often put my own feelings aside, in service of their comfort. And, I did this sexually as well. I really was disrespectful of my own wants, needs and desires. And I felt like often I had to turn over my body to the service of somebody else's agenda. And I just, I don't do that anymore. So that's a massive breakthrough for me personally. Yeah, that is huge. That is huge. I I love that you channeled the book that it came through you and that Yeah. Something it's like your, you found your voice, as the book was being written and that it's resulted in this real. Real change in behavior and again, coming back to really listening to your body's authority and putting it in the driver's seat of what it experiences. And it's really interesting as I'm hearing you summarize like that I just, I find it so striking that, here I am a. Empowered, highly educated professional who's used to giving orders, as I said before, running an operating room telling people exactly what I want and need, but when it came to my body and my own intimate space. I, I couldn't find that voice. So I think it's really interesting to look at how we can have these completely different, sometimes conflicting personas. And yeah. Yeah. Being the boss in an OR did not serve me when it came to, honoring the integrity of my own body in a bedroom. If that makes sense. Oh, it totally makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fascinating. It's fascinating. Yeah. It would seem like a di dichotomy, but like one is a professional setting. And one is a setting that involves intimacy. And the way our touch receptors develop in intimate contact is very different than the way our voices, engage in a professional setting. And. Once again, it's so wonderful that you reclaimed your voice with, through writing this book. Yeah. And to bring it back to, I'm just imagining, a woman in labor, on a labor floor. I see this all the time actually where women who are. Again, like educated, successful professionals who tend to get lots of different voices or integrate different sources of information in the rest of their lives when it comes to these incredibly crucial, important decisions about their own body. It's like they go silent and they just turn it over to the professional. And I feel like there is a real conversation about how can we bring the consent conversation into those moments as well. So onto the labor floor. Into the GYN office when we're deciding how to address something like abnormal uterine bleeding, it's it's about, essentially respecting our own voices and remember that this is always. It must be an equal partnership, whether we're talking about the physician patient relationship or the or intimate partners, it's a partnership. It's, there's no turning over. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I would say in the medical scenario, I feel like what you described earlier, for example, of how you created a hypno C-section environment where that calm and that soothing, whether it's lights and sound, that has an effect as to whether a patient goes into a freeze response and kind of abdicates the authority of their body too. The medical professional. Like what you described of your ri of the waves riding the waves with Sheila and being present in your body and being so attuned. It feels like your nervous system was so like down, regulated and present with the experience and it feels like, yeah. Like the medical setting can be one where like all these kind of opportunities for calming the nervous system are actually flipped on its head. I agree. Yeah, Bri, bright lights, loud noises, alarming machines, strangers entering and exiting your space. It's all just puts you into the state of heightened stress response where actually for. Optimal uterine muscle contraction. We need the parasympathetic nervous system to take over. We need to be in a state of relaxation for normal labor to take place. Yes, absolutely. Just hearing you say that, downregulates, I feel like more relaxed, just hearing you say that. Good. It's nighttime. So maybe we could just drift off to sleep after. Exactly. Exactly. Jen, thanks so much for sharing your experience and your expertise and your perspective with us. I really appreciate you being here. I've so enjoyed our conversation as always, and I hope that someone heard something today that speaks to them and is helpful. That's my wish. Notice how this episode is landing in your body. What sensations or feelings are present for you right now if you've experienced pregnancy or birth? Is there anywhere your body would like to receive a loving touch, caress, or acknowledgement from you? Or is there a story that this body area wants to share with you? If your body is preparing or wanting to experience birth? Is there anywhere your body would like to have seed planted of intentions, attention, or communication? For a graceful and empowering experience, and if you're the partner of someone who has given or wants to give birth, what might your body need to receive in support for the role you've provided or want to provide Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun") #### Devi Ward Erickson Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun") #### Kimberly Anne Johnson Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg) #### Dr. Betty Martin The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Consent, Boundaries & Communication, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships **Tags:** embodied sexuality, Jennifer Lang, Orgasmic birth, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing, sexual trauma recovery --- ### [Somatic Consent: Boundaries, Touch & Embodied Awareness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) **Published:** April 29, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we identify, voice and honor our body’s boundaries and desires in ways that expand intimacy and connection? Matthias Schwenteck, Creator of Somatic Consent, shares the principles and practices of “the 4 pillars of engagement” and their application to intimate relationships that invite a non-dual “liquid love” in communion and sensorial pleasure. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Somatic Consent: Boundaries, Touch & Embodied Awareness # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore somatic consent and how the body communicates boundaries, safety, and desire with Matthias Schwenteck, Founder of Somatic Consent. You’ll learn how to recognize these signals and create clearer, more empowered relational dynamics. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/MatthiasSchwenteck.jpg "MatthiasSchwenteck | Rahi Chun") [SomaticConsent.com](https://somaticconsent.com/) [SomaticConsentCommunity.](https://somaticconsent.mn.co/share/zKY9OyBsTaOwwOU3?utm_source=manual) *Today’s Guest:* Matt is a German-born citizen who has been traveling and teaching internationally since 2010. He is a trained facilitator in the fields of Sacred Sexuality and Tantra, and has been working with different healing modalities such as counseling, guided meditation, and bodywork, for over 20 years. His sessions and teachings are grounded in a background of trauma research and neurophysiology. Matt considers himself a student of life, and finds himself inspired by everything that resonates with the key values of connection, transformation, and love. In his unending search for authentic experience, Matt has walked many paths, including those of Tao yoga, shamanism, and energy work. In 2011, he found his calling within somatic practices and consent, and has been studying and fine-tuning this work ever since. Matthias developed the Somatic Consent Engagement System in 2019, and has dedicated his life to guiding thousands of people through this evolutionary process in settings that range all the way from festivals to workshops and retreats to professional private sessions. ## What You’ll Learn About Somatic Consent, Boundaries & Touch $ “When we are in a position of power, we either have the choice to misuse our power for our benefit – so that’s the power over or the love of power, or we step into the power of love – where we give our gift of power to the other person to find their power” $ How Matthias was told by a tantric practitioner initiating him into the tantric arts that he could do whatever he wanted in sessions because “no one knows what a tantra session is” and how feeling like an accomplice to an abusive culture compelled him to publicly out these practices on social media. $ How the 4 pillars of Somatic Consent are much like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in that one’s shadow must first be explored and owned, before becoming fully available to explore embodied permission and agreement, which after practiced sufficiently avails one to the Apex where duality is no more. $ How when we are in a position of power or authority, it is our responsibility to be aware of the power dynamics and take care to that position of power by honoring the student or client with their power. $ How the “waking up your hands” practice activates a sensory inflow – exclusive of another person’s response – and in so doing, not only wakes up the touch receptors for our hands, but does so for the entire body. $ How replacing the indirect routes of pleasure – based on the response of our touch by the other person – with the direct route of pleasure – our own sensorial stimulation – involves waking up our touch receptors and by doing so, can also clear any unprocessed emotions that are in the way of the newly expanding inflow. $ How when the 4 pillars of Somatic Consent are applied relationally, it calls for radical self-responsibility with each person owning their shadow, voicing their own needs, taking actions out of their own desires, and touching for their own pleasure within the stated boundaries of their partner. $ How identifying, voicing, and clarifying my limits and boundaries are in the realm of my responsibility, which you cannot take responsibility for. $ How the 4 pillars applied relationally places the power with each person to request what they want, so that if I want you to do something for me, I will ask you and if I do not ask you, I am not wanting anything from you, so there is no need to do anything for me. $ How when lovers meet at the Apex of non-duality with their sensory inflow of relaxed arousal embodied and expansive, the “liquid light” of communal loving can experience “the infinity of no goals” ## Explore more on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Intimacy, Communication & Conscious Relationships ](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Related Eps on** Intimacy, Connection & Relational Healing [How The Wheel of Consent transforms embodied boundaries](https://rahichun.com/podcast/wheel-of-consent-touch-boundaries/) [How to embody and advocate for your consent in birth and medical systems](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-birth-medicine-body-authority/) [How to transform your erotic sovereignty and embodied power for deeper intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth) [How to restore empowering associations with pleasure from previously unhealthy ones](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. And in relationships, this becomes a shared field—where intimacy, safety, and erotic connection can deepen in ways we were never taught. If you’re ready to transform the way you meet your beloved in intimacy: [Divine Union for Lovers Online Experience](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) Relational practices and erotic skill-building to deepen connection, trust, and pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Mattias Schwan, tech creator of Somatic Consent, who has worked in the realms of touch, boundaries, and consent as a trainer, teacher, and practitioner for decades. Matt's deep explorations and understanding of the nature of boundaries and consent make the four pillars of somatic consent and its application to relational dynamics, fun and fascinating. At the end of the episode, there will be a guided exploration for waking up your hands to provide a sensory experience of what is possible. So I'm really thrilled and happy to be inviting my good friend Mattia Schwan to the podcast today. Mattias is the founder and creator of Somatic Consent, and this is after years of leading trainings and workshops and experiential somatic experiences in the realm of. Touch boundaries and consent for hundreds, if not thousands of people over the years. And he's also a practitioner and teacher of sacred sexuality and tantra. Having been trained in various counseling and body work modalities over the years that are trauma and nervous sy nervous system informed. Mattias, thanks for joining us today. Thank you very much for introducing me, and thank you very much for inviting me to your podcast. I'm sure thrilled to be here. Great. So you know, Mattias, I actually first met you when you were the facilitator of the Facebook group, tantra, not Trauma. And this was a worldwide Facebook group that involved tantric practitioners sharing their experiences of which Tantra trainings all over the world were working and teaching in integrity and which were crossing boundaries and really abusing the power of authority of boundaries and consent. And I was so impressed with. How that group was facilitated and the safe space that you guys held for people to know which sacred sex sexuality trainings and experiences were safe. So I wanna start off by asking what, because you've been so involved with trainings and teachings around boundaries and consent for so many years. What do you think, what do you think it's been about your journey in this life or your soul's path that has always drawn you so passionate to issues and the subtle distinctions of boundaries and consent? Good and complex question. Yes. So what pops immediately in my mind is this quote and sentence. You need one to see one. And when I started to work with tantra with body work. And facilitating. I was starting off with a tantric group that was not deep in consent and boundaries. And my first introduction into becoming a tantric practitioner was, that the person who was initiating me, you can do whatever you want because nobody knows what a tantra session is. And I have individually, personally, a very deep sense of justice and from my heart and from my gut feeling, I know what feels right and what feels wrong, and I have been always in this position as a practitioner and as a facilitator that. I was in the situation to empower people to let them find what they wanted. So that was from the beginning on, but I not really allowed myself to fully come forward with this feeling, and I was giving my power more to the authority, to the facilitator on top that what they do is the right thing. And I was holding back. So that I was starting to when you go with the perpetrator, so you become a com complex. Yeah accomplice. Accomplice to actually the perpetrator. And by not saying that this is something not real, authentic or that's injustice and I just created. On my level like a sense of guilt and shame around that. And and I felt in, it was 2014, the first time when it actually really dropped into me that I needed to make a public statement. And I did that on my Facebook wall saying that I'm the first practitioner that. It's calling out themself by stop using the position of power in the tantric practitioner and facilitator scene to just stepping full into the position of empowering people to step in their power and not using my power for my own benefit. And and that was a deep landing on a cellular level in my nervous system to start that. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And it really requires that, people who are in positions of authority, whether it's taken or projected by students and participants to really call themselves out. It's like you understood the way people were projecting or giving their power away to you in that position. You're, you were really giving the power back to students, participants, people who didn't really maybe recognize or understand that power dynamic. And to do it publicly on a, on your Facebook page. Yeah. I'm sure that created some waves amongst your colleagues and peers. Oh yeah, pretty much. So I initiated a rejection in so many different tantric tribes so that I just literally got excluded in many directions. Had to really learn to fly on my own wings and stepping forward with my own values and with my own authenticity, with my integrity. That was a tremendous gift you gave to yourself then. So that is a really interesting context because the pillars of somatic consent really invites people to take ownership of their shadow side at the base. With the self-care before engaging in the permission line and agreement line which is necessary before reaching the apex where there is no, no duality. So let's move into the four pillars of somatic consent because it's a very, dynamic engagement system, and it feels like there is this progression that's necessary. It's necessary to really own our shadows in order to be clean, in giving and receiving the permission lines of permission and agreement. And those need to be so well practiced in order to surrender to the presence of sensation and touch. Yes. Yeah, I just I, I don't know what question to ask. I'm just fascinated because I feel like it's a matrix to evolve, not only with our own nervous systems, not only with our somatic embodiment, but also, to evolve spiritually and relationally. It's a really fascinating it's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid where we need to take ownership of, our self-care, and our shadows in order to move forward. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic and. What's really exciting about that? It has been just like over these years, always in front of my nose and never have really seen it that much. And as you just sat now with the tan trauma group by speaking up from a position of power giving participants and clients their power back, that it's about what they want and what they wanna receive, that the position of power is. It's a kind of a key component as well in the somatic consent engagement system, so that when we are reaching this apex as an individual practitioner or facilitator, if we want that or not, we are in a position of power. And when we have people coming into our environment, then it's our responsibility to. Taking care of that power and the power differentiation. And there is this nice quote I think that comes from the Spider-Man movie. With a lot of power comes a lot of responsibilities. And that's the entire work about a facilitator is when we are in a position of power that we either have the choice to misusing our power for our benefit. So that's the power over, or the laugh of power, or we step into the power of love where we are giving our gift of power to the other person to find their power. And then we let people in power and not taking that power away when they thrive. And that's a very important piece, specifically when we're engaging with clients and practitioner that we, can support people in their power growing and thriving instead of trying to keeping them under our level of engagement and our, under our radar. And that's an important step that I have been, observing over the years with many facilitator who working in that field that they'll let people only come to a certain point into their power. And as soon people stepping into their autonomy and inner authority of their yeah, their ownership of what they found. And I have experienced that on my own body. That facilitator trying to diminish and push. People down and I have been pushed down quite often and quite a lot, and this is where the opposite, all of a sudden, in the wheel of consent, what most people who will listen now to some degree already, I imagine you, you have this middle point where the action line and the receiving line is crossing. And when I said that was always in front of my nose, that was the part where I saw. That there's a developmental structure to it. And when I dig deeper into the background of the wheels or the three minute game and the inventor of the Three Minute Game, Harry Feis, I recognize that came from a spiritual background, and Harry Feis was describing it from that perspective. You give your gift of power when you are in a position of power to let the other person find what their desire is. And everything was just falling into place and everything was dropping into my own understanding so that this middle point that, found as well in this somatic consent engagement system is the apex, is the position of interpersonal engagement. Giving our gift of power, of love and care and engagement from an an altruistic place of where friendship is created and where we inspiring each other. Yeah. Where our simple state of being is it's almost like the giving and receiving is happening concurrently. There is no duality of it. There's just the experience, really the experience of love. But it does require that surrender, as you're saying. And so it is a very spiritual invitation. So you've said you've shared so many really great things. I love what you shared about, where there comes great power, there comes great responsibility, and that part of our role as facilitators and practitioners is to really take ownership of that. Power dynamic by making sure that the power is left with the student or the client as authority figures, or, whether we'd like to see ourselves as authority figures or not. There's just such rampant projection of parental, mother, father issues, and that has an opportunity to be retold, to rewire, yeah, the apex, it just makes the engagement system so enticing and mysterious. Mattias. I think it's fair to say that it takes so much practice on the permission line and the agreement line to be able to get to a place of the nervous system feeling so safe enough to surrender to the experience of sensation when being present with another. Go ahead. No, please. No. Please. So I feel like the I know you offer a free course on your website, waking Up Your Hands. And how foundational that is in order to really engage fully and know and have our, the touch language developed. So our touch sensors know and can understand what really is giving and what really is receiving in order to move towards that apex. Yeah, I guess I, I wanna explore like, why waking up your hands, it's such a simple exercise, but it's so profound in all of the layers that it reveals for people. Just why that's so foundational to the work. Yeah. So when we just look into our own action and into our conditioning, what action includes. Most people, they're wired and conditioned in a way that they think or believe that their action is associated with giving so that most people think when they're in action, then it is about what is happening to somebody else. So that this is so conflated in the nervous system that most people think that's the only way how giving is happening through action. And based on this dynamic, most people have learned that when they do something, even if it's for themself to a degree, what they don't really wanna own or can own, it's about that what is coming back through their action. Yeah. So that they're really filtering everything of their action through what will. Arrive back and them, so that when we start opening up this dynamic of the sensory inflow, we have to, in the first place, acknowledge this action, that once people do that, they want to get a response back. And we call that in somatic consent. The indirect route. Yeah. So indirect because. It just happens indirectly in the backflow. So when we talk about the sensory inflow of the somatic nervous system and the afferent dynamic in the somatic nervous system, we're talking about the specific set of fibers in the skin. They are capable of feeling this pleasant, tish kind of electromagnetic, nice sensual sensation. Yeah, and this is what most people having really difficulties to find because when this is starts to get activated and they making an action by choice towards this sensation in their own skin without another person involved, something in the brain is getting activated. So the insular, the Feeling Center. So when people slow down enough and they're just tapping by their own actions, so the motor part of this somatic nervous system is getting activated so that their own action. Is towards their sensory inflow, this feeling center getting activated and people come in connection not only with the nice, pleasant, Tish, beautiful sensations, they're coming as well with all the suppressed feelings that they don't want to have. Related to shame, fear, guilt, inadequacy, this entire package, what most people carry. And that's how many people, a big obstacle. But when this is dropping. Neurologically before the rational cognitive meaning making part of the rational mind that there is a layer underneath that is physical. Possible to experience without putting all the story on top of that. People cannot deny that they have to take ownership that they, or they can move their body towards the sensation in the skin. And when that is dropping, this is what we call the direct route and we doing that very subtle but very profound that we re we replace the indirect route, what most people mainly do with the direct route so that we are making the direct route as their default of touch and connection. And then we are putting the indirect route as an extra or an bonus on top of that so that when they go in action, that the response will come back anyway. But then the respond has not the priority anymore. It just happens, but it's not. We are not dependent on it anymore. And that makes individual autonomous beings being an action for themself and feeling themself. Yes. Yes. That's the key point in all of them. Yeah I find this really profound because I was, because what that means is to, what I interpret that to mean is that, as children we're, when we're conditioned, we're usually doing things in order to get something or to get a response. And this simple practice of waking up your hands and waking up. Or involving the posterior insula, the feeling, the love sense, the feeling sense with this beautiful delicious touch. It's almost like creating a two-way highway when before it was like a one-way highway. And to your point, it brings up all of the. Trauma or experiences or conditioning that prevented that feeling, loving sense to be there with our sensations. And so it's an enormous opportunity. Not only to recondition and rewire our experience of touch, but for healing as well. As it's rewiring and then you know, the experience of touch. And I'll say that waking up your hands. It's really waking up the touch sensors of the touch language of the whole body. Because once the hands understand that the experience is about the sensation of touch and that the effect of it on the other person is secondary, then the whole body starts to learn that. Yeah, that's a saying that the, the hands have per square millimeter a certain area, more nerve endings than anywhere else in the body except the mouse and the genitals. So when the hands get it, the rest of the body will get it. And that includes as well, that the genitals and the mouse have more nerve endings than the hands. So therefore when the hands are on track, the rest will follow up automatically. And that's it's just a matter of fact. And I just wanna just as well come back to one specific point that when people, and specifically when it comes to the apex, and so where as well, love making is happening when two people engage with each other and. Only one of the two has an agenda that their touch is goal orientated and another person is capable of feeling themself. That will not go very high. That will not go into an upward spiral. But if both people having this capacity of their neurological inflow on, they're really feeling each other, but they are connected to the other person over this inflow, it will create an. Upward spiral of what I call liquid light. Yeah. And there's something really magical happening after a while that specifically in lovemaking, when the genitals actually can feel that without the goal involved, that there is a tremendous capacity of transformation through this possibility of feeling each other and themself. Yeah. Yes. If there is an agenda in the energetic field. Being held by one or the other person, it's going to inhibit or hold back that liquid light from expanding to where it wants to expand. Yeah, if it's just a one man show or a one person show, then it won't go anywhere. So one person will be disappointed and, only one person goes for satisfaction and gratification and wanna reach a goal. Or if both people wanna reach a goal, then they're just fighting who's reaching it first, or they're just like trying simultaneously to reach the goal. What is in kind of western. Society more the super goal of both people climaxing together at the same time, but instead of taking the goal out and being capable of flying on the softness of relaxed arousal, expanding into that place of yeah, infinity of no goal, that's just the most delicious way of sensual, sexual engaging that's actually possible. Yeah, I see that as the infinity of sensation, so it's like the goal is being replaced by. The deliciousness of receiving what it's like to just be sensation, pure sensation, engaging with itself. Really it's sensation engaging with its own sensation with another person there. Mattias, I'm really curious because, when we met years ago you were in a partnership and the agreements that you had in the partnership were really. Clearer and clean and it seemed to eliminate any kind of sense of obligation or misinterpretation. I'd love to know how you have found your personal relationships have evolved as you agreements within those relationships have evolved. Respecting your privacy, but sharing whatever you'd like to share in regards to that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the question. I like that. And, the interesting thing is that when I started to see this relational structure and the dynamics, I personally choose that I don't want to engage anymore in assumption based relationship or in good guessing or the romantic dream. How most people trying to create something that they call a relationship, but nobody really knows what it is. Kind of till ever after, until death takes us apart. So that that, I just wanted to make that really clear on this four structures of somatic consent, that there's a relational component to it. And the first one is when I wanna relate with people, I wanna relate from a place of love and care. Yeah, and I don't wanna relate in shadows and I wanna relate from that place where the foundation is the base. Yeah. So the base is that I can feel myself and my partner can feel themself, so that I'm not dependent on my partner and my partner's not dependent on me, so that we don't engage with the shadows. So that makes it really clear. I'm responsible for my feelings and you are responsible for your feelings. So you cannot put your tentacles into, in my base and make me responsible for how you feel. And I cannot make the same either. So I cannot make you responsible for how you feel. So that's ownership. Self love, self care. And this is. It doesn't matter with who, whom I'm engaging, if that is a intimate partner, if that's a friend, if that's a colleague, wherever I am. This is like the foundation. Yeah. Know what I have a right to what You have a right to what I'm responsible for. What you're responsible for. And my aim is that we engage on the same level. Yeah. And if you make me responsible, then you put me on another level and I wanna make really sure. So I'm not letting you put me on this pedestal. You're responsible for that, not me. Yeah. And if you put yourself above and and trying to diminish my own rights, then I want to make sure that now we have the same rights here. So when I'm with my lover, relate on that level. It's impeccable, utterly self responsibility and radical self responsibility. And and this includes as well the sensory inflow. So the opening of feeling myself with my skin so that I know I have a full autonomy about my action for my own sensations. So this foundation, the base is the first layer of this relationship. It doesn't matter who it is, when it is, and how it is. And then I go into, and it depends on whom I want to engage with, so that nobody else can give me permission to feel or touch another person. I cannot give anybody else in the world give permission to touch another person. But I know who I have a agreement with. I know who I have permission that I can feel and that I can touch. So that's the second layer of my relationship agreements is to my partner. Do I have permission to touch you with any part of my body, wherever, whenever, however I want. And you take care of your limits? Yeah. So I get, yeah. And just to distinguish, that's for your pleasure. You're, you have the freedom to touch for your pleasure, not think, not without any consideration of what feels good to her, that's her responsibility or your partner's responsibility. So I'm asking for that permission and I give the same permission. Yeah. So you have the same you're same allowed to touch me with any part of your body. Whenever, however you want, I will take care of my limits so that we have a mutual layer of permission. So that's the second line of the relationship agreement. So that every action in the first place is when I'm going in action, I go in action for myself and I respect your limits. And I know when you go in action, you go in action for yourself and you respect my li my limits if I have them, and I will speak them up. I'm an adult. No. And right, I guess you're an adult too, so you can speak your limits. And you cannot make me responsible if you're not speaking your limits. And I cannot make you responsible of you not speaking your limits because your limits belongs to you and your base. And then from there, we just stepping up to the third layer. And the third layer is if I want you to do something for me, then I will ask you. If I don't ask you, I don't want anything. So don't do anything for me if I don't ask for anything. So that, that, that gives the power to me that I have to make a request if I want something. And yes if you have a limit, I will respect that. If you don't want to do anything great. So the same in reverse. If you want me to do something. If if you desire, you have to ask too, and you can ask for whatever you want. And I will take care of my limits here too. If I don't want to do anything, I don't do anything. So that it takes this pleasing component out of the equation. Yeah. It's not running the after the other and trying to get a respond out of them. And trying to make them feel happy. Now it's just okay, if you need something, ask for it. Yeah. It takes the pleasing out, but also the second guessing, the manipulation. It takes out so much. When it's really clean and clear and people are taking responsibility for their own wants and asking for what they're wanting. Yeah. So the fourth layer on top of that is when the three layers are in place and embodied. Yeah. When we can relate on that level, then we just reach this apex. This apex is this place of love and care. The place of giving ourself as the gift without needing anything back. When I give something, I give because I can. I give because I have. And what you do is that is your choice. I'm not expecting anything. And the same is for you. When you give something in the moment, you have given it, it's gone. Yeah. And and that allows us this place of dropping out of the identification of personality structures into a higher realm of a transpersonal space where, you know, the higher vibration of transformation and lovemaking literally is only happening. And that's why I'm so passionate about is to reach that place up there. All this other stuff is good. It's good to have that in place and it's good to play with that. And, but. I want to hang out up there. And here comes a point I haven't mentioned yet. In the apex there's a ascending and descending dynamic simultaneously happening. So what can be for one person? A gift can be for another person, a shadow, and that needs a high level of integrity and a high level of ownership and awareness to engage with this level when they come up. Yeah, because I feel like so much of sexuality is being used in, whether it's in marriages or dating, getting to know each other. It's really being used as a barter chip. On, on some end, I'm sure a sense of manipulation on another sense of a way of give to get. And it really not only muddies the the. The possibility for authentic relating, but it also creates, dysfunction and armor in the body when you are, when we're using the body in order to get something rather than for its own pleasure, for its own sensational, sensation exploration. So yeah, I love this relational. And it really mirrors the the engagement system pyramid. Yeah. See, it's kind of genius. It is. It is. And I wanna say that like people who are listening who feel like, oh my God, I would love to do that, but I don't know where to start. It's not like you can turn, look, our adult patterns and behaviors are based on, in large part our childhood conditioning. So you can just play for an afternoon at a time with your lover or your spouse and work towards. Becoming more adept and fluid with your ability to recognize what is giving, what is receiving, what is it that my body wants? And work, work your way in exploring this relational matrix. Yeah. And the main beauty about this entire offering that I'm having on the webpage and that I'm providing with the world is that, and I was always passionate about that. I started that to my fifties birthday about two years ago, where I said, I just want to create free consent material accessible for the world. And that was the main thing how I created that, that online course. So it's a free course. It's, it was free. It will always be free, and nobody has to just put a big investment into anything, discovering anything. So everybody's very welcome to go there. Register for this course and activate your hands. There's a lot of good stuff to read and find out for yourself. No belief system. Nobody has to just sign up for anything else and then find a body and play the three minute game. And find your own truth in that. And if that lands in your body and that resonates and it feeds solid and you feel like, okay, that's exactly what you were looking for, then there's more to it. Yes Matthias's website and all of these free offerings are@somaticconsent.com. There's a free e-course on waking up your hands, a free course on engaging with the three minute game. And just an incredibly thorough handbook that explains the neurophysiology of what is getting rewired. When we wake up our hands and engage in these explorations of consent and boundaries it's such a gift. And I think it's in how many languages now? It's, you've translated into many languages, right? Yeah. The somatic consent engagement system in itself is translated in 22 languages. Wow. But in, in its whole, it's just existing in in English and in German. And we will start pretty soon as well in Spanish. And some translations in Dutch some in Swedish. So step-by-step. So step by step. Awesome. Conquer the world with consent. Yes. Yes. I love it. I love it. Conquer the world with consent by giving the power back, right? Correct. Yeah. Before we close Mattias is there a somatic exercise, like a favorite somatic exercise that you'd like to share with listeners that will support a deeper embodiment of our sexual. Vibrancy or sexual promise. I feel like sensations is such a. Kind of divine gateway to restoring our sexual wholeness. Is there a somatic exercise that, that you have that's a favorite of yours? As I said that in the beginning, you have more nerve endings in your hands than anywhere else. Your body accept your mouth and your genitals, and when your hands get it, your, the rest of your body will get it. So it's waking up the hands is one of the major. Somatic exercises that I recommend everyone to do, and as soon your hands are really activated, people ask, then what? So that when your hands get it, your genitals will get it. So when you can translate this touch into with your hands in your genitals and you're not following the goal, and you just go with the sensory sensation of your experience without. Any agenda then you have a good chance to have this yeah. Divine gate open by yourself. Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect. That's right on Mattias, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you very much for having me. My pleasure. Shall we explore what it feels like to wake up our hands? Find a comfortable sitting position where your torso can comfortably lean back into a passive and receptive state. This is important as it releases the body and the mind's association with a doing active state, both muscularly and within your nervous system. Use pillows or blankets to make yourself feel very comfortable and choose an object, any object, and bring it to your side. Let's first notice what feels relaxed in your body. And notice what that feels like for the body, taking in those sensations. And if you can make your body feel even more relaxed and comfortable, let's go ahead and adjust to do just that. Pick up your object and bring it with your hands to your lap, or perhaps a pillow on your lap to reduce any muscular tension and increase that passive receptive state of the whole body Now. Allow the sensations in your hands to be explored with this object as the stimuli in your passive receptive state. Noticing what it's like to receive an inflow of stimuli through your sensations. Is the sensory experience of receiving this stimuli different than when your hands are in the active doing state? And if so, how slow this exploration of your hands down. By half the pace and notice any changes in the nature of those sensations, and if the mind wanders. It's all right. Simply bring your awareness back to what is happening within your hands, and as you slow it down again by half. Shift your awareness to what feels pleasurable about these sensations, feeling what it's like to receive for your touch receptors to simply be. With stimuli, if feelings are arising, let's give space for them. Just allowing that energy to flow and move as it wants. Let's allow your sensations to fill your entire awareness. Noticing whether other sensations of pleasure arise in other parts of your body and whether you can receive these sensations as well. And you can continue exploring for as long as your body wants. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Consent, Boundaries & Communication, Podcasts on Intimacy & Conscious Relationships **Tags:** Boundaries, Matt Schwentech, Matthias Schwentech, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexual Healing, Somatic Consent --- ### [Karsai, Libido & Genital Health for Men](https://rahichun.com/podcast/karsai-libido-genital-health/) **Published:** March 12, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** The ancient Thai/Taoist Art of Nuad Karsai, also known as Karsai Nei Tsang, increases the Blood/Qi flow into the genitalia and pelvis naturally, restoring its organic energy flow and in so doing, resolving issues ranging from a lack of lubrication, proper engorgement of the clitoris and labia, low libido and fertility issues in vulva-owners, to erection challenges, ejaculation issues, and low libido in penis-owners. “Coocky” Tassanee Boonsom, founder and teacher at the Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School based in Chiang Mai and one of the most experienced practitioners in these Thai arts, shares her journey of what lead her to becoming trained in these practices, the ability to touch into the energetic consciousness and memories of the client, and the importance of establishing clean energetic boundaries when working with such intimate physical and energetic spaces of a client. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Karsai, Libido & Genital Health for Men ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore Karsai bodywork and how it supports male libido, genital health, and sexual function. You’ll learn how tension and stagnation affect arousal—and how to restore flow and vitality. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun") [LoiKrohTraditionalMassage.com](http://loikrohmassage.com/) [LeLotusBlanc.com](http://lelotusblanc.com/) [](https://www.zhalehboydphillips.com/) *Today’s Guest:* “Coocky” Tassanee Boonsom is the owner and founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage & Yoga in Chiang Mai. She is one of the most experienced specialists in Traditional Thai Massage, Abdominal Detox Massage (also known as Chi Nei Tsang) and Nuad Karsai (genital detox massage). Tassanee Boonsom has trained with and learned from many different teachers. She studied nerve touch or jap sen with her first teacher Mama Lek Chaiya on Thapae Road in Chiang Mai, then completed several more courses with Pichest Boonthumme, Ithidet Manarat “Poo”at the Old Medicine Hospital, The Health Care Department of Thailand, and Wat Po to name a few. Coocky has also studied several times at Tao Garden: Chi Nei Tsang with Master Mantak Chia and Jutta Kellenberger, Chi Kong and Tai Chi with Master Li Hechun, and Karsai Nei Tsang with Khun Nom and Khun Ni. In the same way, Coocky studied self-development with Khun Jasmine at Pothiyalai, Ashtanga Yoga with William at Yogasala, and she practiced meditation at Wat Rampoeng. She has been practising Reusi Datton (traditional Thai yoga) for many years, and recently she has begun to study Kundalini Yoga with Siri Shabd Singh.. Coocky has traveled overseas since 2003, including to Japan, Switzerland and Italy, to promote and teach Traditional Thai Massage and Abdominal Detox Massage. Since 2014, she regularly visits France to support Xavier Hlavacek’s massage school based in Poitiers – Le Lotus Blanc. ## What You’ll Learn About Libido, Genital Health & Karsai $ “For sexual energy, we call it Fire element… When we have low sexual energy… it means you have no fire. The elements in your body are important – if your elements are out of order, it will give you problems….” $ How “sen line 10” (sen = energy meridian) emphasized in Abdominal Detox and Nuad Karsai stimulates and restores the energy and blood flow to the genitalia. $ How “Karsai” refers to the sedimentation that obstructs healthy blood and Qi flow in the veins and can be the major cause of a lack of lubrication, proper engorgement in the labia and clitoris, and fertility challenges in vulva-owners, and a source of erection issues, ejaculation control, and low libido in penis-owners. $ How opening up the channels and blood reservoirs above and below the pelvis allows for a greater restoration of energy and blood flow to the genitalia. $ The many causes of sedimentation forming in the veins that create knots within tissues, and tangles obstructing natural organ placement and movement. $ How the 4 elements in the Thai healing arts: Water, Wind, Fire and Earth are interpreted in CNT and KNT $ How practitioners can sense into the energetic emotions, memories and consciousness of clients, and the importance of protecting one’s energetic boundaries whilst holding space. $ How the psoas muscle, referred to as “the muscle of the soul” by Tibetan healers, stores past traumas and unprocessed emotions. ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps. on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How genital de-armoring and pelvic healing transforms intimate pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [How pelvic pain and scar tissue can resolve and evolve into arousal](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [What new somatic patterns transform erectile dysfunction](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) [How pleasure is the medicine for pelvic restoration](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) ## Go Deeper Into This Work The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's episode, we explore the ancient practice of Noad, also called Sang and Abdominal Detox Massage. Also called Xang with one of the most experienced practitioners of these arts. K ta Bunum Kki shares the importance of restoring and nourishing centen. Line 10, the energy meridian of the body, which restores the natural Q blood and energy flow into the genitalia, which can resolve a wide range of issues such as a lack of lubrication. Proper engorgement of the labia and clitoris and fertility issues in vulva owners and erection challenges, ejaculation issues, and low libido in penis owners. At the end of the episode, we discuss ways to engage and open the send line 10 with self massage. So today I am very pleased to be inviting one of my teachers who I met in Thailand in the north. She runs the Loy Crow traditional massage, Thai yoga and massage school in Chiang Mai. Okay. And I specifically sought her out because she's one of the most experienced practitioners in these ancient Daoist arts. The abdominal Organ detox massage also called Chines song in some circles, and the Noad sci also sometimes called sci na song. Kooky. Thank you so much for joining us today. Hi. Thank you to you too, Rahi. Yes, of course. So Kki is in France at the moment. I really appreciate she joining us. So Kki, I wanna start by asking, you've had such an interesting life's journey. Of healing and being exposed to healing way back from your grandmother's sister who was the midwife in the town you grew up in and assisting and witnessing the work that she did, delivering babies all the way up to founding and being the lead instructor at your school. I'd like to ask you what were some of the most. Influential or important experiences that shaped your journey as a teacher and as a practitioner. Thank you. I hope I can answer. Your question. Yes. Time massage, teacher or practitioner, for. A long times. And I wanted to deeper yes to the root of the sense lines, the traditional time aside. We have, sense lines that the naval. But each time I, we don't practice so much in this area, in them. Abdominal area or the stomach area since line number 10 be called it. Connect to your sexual organs and to your lower ado. Yes, and I find, or, and North. It's really work and deeper and unblock this area. Yeah. Which is time massage. Don't touch this area really. So you were, it sounds like you were really interested in engaging that line 10 that goes from the navel to the pubic bone. Yeah. So in acupuncture and acupressure, it's called different things, the sea of intimacy, it, but it really stimulates the energy and blood into the genitalia and really the whole pelvis. Yes. So you were saying time massage does not engage in that line from the navel to the pubic bone. And you were interested in really. Nourishing and healing the blood flow into the pelvis. So you sought out the abdominal detox and no cari the time size in my generation, it may be practiced in the. Old generation, but in my generation, they avoid massaging this area. It's example in WaPo they are working in the temple. So in this area is they teach us the theory, the energy lines, how. White star to the navel, to the pre week and so on. But practically they don't teach, oh, really? I see. Or if you ever receive time massage, what they do, they just. Hard walk and stop on the groins. Yes. And then they stop their return and they just thought, wow, they must hide the stomach, but not really deep as the SAI work or the abdominal work, yeah. Yeah. And that line is just so vital. It's like the main line to make sure there's healthy energy and blood flow going into the penis and the clitoris and the. Really the tissues that make up the genitalia. Yes. And this area very important to clear and many people, have blockages in this area. And we are avoid to, yeah. Massage and. Also the important that myself, I had a hernia operations on my navel. And between the pelvic bone and the navel. Yes. So I had an operation at a young age. And I thought the, and it really. Helped me. It really helped me. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So there was both an interest as a healer and your own healing journey. After your own hernia? It sounds like it was an operation. Yes, I had an operation at a young age. Uhhuh. So then I'm guessing that the Chiney song and Cari really helped to restore the healthy blood flow and she flow in your own body in the lower abdominal and pelvic areas. Exactly, yes. Uhhuh, yes. So that's really wonderful. KKI. So you actually. Your body experienced the benefits of these practices at an early age, and I'm guessing it gave you a better understanding of how to practice on others. Yes, through my experience learning from my body actually. Yeah. Our bodies are the best teachers. So I do wanna so just for the listeners to understand no Karsi, sai ang. So Cari actually refers to the sedimentation, their crystal like sedimentation. In the veins, and these can form really anywhere in the body, but nwa, Cari fo yes. But NWA Cari really focuses on the effects of the sedimentation that affects the genitalia and the pelvis. And it's really a sensing and releasing of any sedimentation. They could show up as knots, like little lumps or tangles, which restrict the natural movement of organs. And this can affect anything from for a man, it can result in erection issues or unhealthy ejaculate or low libido. In the female it can affect. Really improper lubrication lack of engorgement of the labia and clitoris. It can affect fertility issues or hormone balance painful sex. And it's really kooky for me, I, the easiest way for me to say it is restoring healthy blood and chief flow. In the pelvis for healthy genitalia. That's generally how I explain it. Is there something, is there a different way that you explain it? Exactly. Like you, what you were explaining is absolutely yes. Yes. Very well explanation. Oh, good. Good. I'm glad I got it. Yeah, for me that's the easiest way to explain it. Yeah. And what I really love about. What I learned at your school was how important it is to open the blood and channels in all the organs through opening the eight wind gates and the Dante to make sure there is a space for the toxicity to go. Yeah. I found it really fascinating how, because you start by opening up the blood flow above the pelvis. Yeah. And then also from below the pelvis with the adductors and the thighs and the femoral artery points. There's a really healthy reservoir body of fresh blood before getting to the massaging the genitalia. Yes. It is just such a wise preparation so that there's a lot of healthy blood and energy to flush open the the sedimentation in the pelvis. So I wanna ask you, KKI, what are some of the most common reasons that clients come to you? For Cari, for No Cari both for men and for women. Okay. First of course by curiosity, there are some people who want to find out, oh, what is. Yes. Just c and then they got something also, that bring them. Sure. So it's also to to, to maintain the sexual energy Yes. Sexual ability. Yep. And some woman, prepare to have a baby, yes. Prepare her mass, prepare her body. To get a baby. Woman who, elder woman or middle age woman can't hold you. Urinate. Yes. And and opposite for demand they can't, they cannot urinate fluently, I see maybe prostate start swollen, yes. Something like that. And yeah. Yeah. And of course they don't say, oh I have a prostate and I want to have this massage. Of course. No, it just, by the massaging you I would feel that, the poster is a bit more swollen than than used usually than the person have difficulty with, for the men. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And of course to soften the skirt to like me, I got the case who he had operation. It's not real operation. It's, on his peanut, to keep clean, yeah. So it was a circumcision and to keep clean. And after he got when his penis get reaction and it is not really as straight, it is pulling when he get, so he come to massage. And, like what you say, low libido, yes. Low sexual thing. And they want to keep this in the natural way. Kind of natural vitality. Yes. Kook, it sounds like a lot of men will come one out of curiosity, but also sometimes for an unhealthy or enlarged prostate. So they have difficulty urinating, but they don't realize that it's the enlarged prostate that's causing the the trouble with urination. It also sounds like men will come to increase their vitality and I'm guessing that means increasing the blood flow, the energy, yes. But in Haii, I really caught a man who really. Had, this prostate problem, it's you, you're surprised that so many people don't want to have an the prostate operation, the cancer, they don't want to have an operation, so they yeah, they're looking for yes. Treatment. Treatment in a natural way. Sure. Yeah. It seems to help. Yeah. Yeah. There are so many natural ways to heal and address issues like an enlarged prostate for men or excess heavy bleeding for women. Here in America, if a woman goes to their doctor and they're bleeding heavily during their period. The doctor will recommend a hysterectomy, an operation to remove the uterus. And I feel like, that's the uterus trying to pump. Usually, often it's the uterus trying to pump old blood stuck to its walls out of the way, and I feel like, practices like Noad, Cari can address these things naturally by increasing the blood flow and resolving these blocks in the organs, whether it's the prostates or testicles for men or the uterus, and any obstructions in the vaginal canal for women. Oh, also, when you talk about uterus for women and also women who have lower back pain Yeah. Is a coach of uterus, dislocation, so by lift, massaging, or lifting the uterus. It help it, when it, the utero is not extremely dis dislocated. Yes. It help. And you mentioned earlier the nod Cari can support a prolapse bladder as well. I think that's what you meant when you talked about female urination issues. Yes. Yeah. It really surprised me when I was in your training and we were doing the Karsi for Men and I was partnered with Hayato San. Just, yes, just within two days his blood flow increased significantly. Yes. And it makes so much sense because we're clearing the pathways for the blood to not only move into the genitalia, but really to move into the pelvis from the from the torso as well as from the legs on up. I'm curious, KKI, I know you guys have a studio in France. Lotus Blanc. Lotus Blanc. Lotus Blanc, yeah. Do you find that the issues that clients come with are different in France than in Thailand? They are not quite different. They are similar. Similar, I must say, in Thailand people come from around the world. Yes, it's there to eat the massage. But here, there are most of it's only French people, but there are similar problems. Yes. Yes. So the body is the body, no matter what culture it's from. And it's the same issues. So we should let our listeners know that the, there are many causes to the sedimentation, the knots, and the tangles from toxins in our environment toxins in the food we eat. But kki, would you say that the primary. Reason is emotional toxicity or emotional trauma? I'm not sure if I understand your question. Oh, so I know there are many reasons for the sedimentation and the knots and tangles to occur in the genitalia, really anywhere in the body including toxins in the environment and the food we eat. But it seems like emotional toxins, repressed anger, fear. Conflict seems to be, the ma Would you say that's the main reason? That is also part of the big thing, Uhhuh. Stress. Stress stress. The negative feeling, your mind's choice or body's choice and what we call stress. Stress. We keep the stress in the negative way, but yes it really this energy, this yeah this we call stress, energy. It really give us, many blockages in our body. Our minds, our yeah. Life. Sure. Because the body is feeling all of those. Unexpressed or repressed emotions. And we know that, the body responds by contracting when it's stressed. So the muscles around the nerves or around, so the, the nerves the blood vessels, the circulatory system can all become contracted and that's when the sedimentation, knots and tangles can happen. Yes. And in Thai we also have we have four elements. We have different elements than Chinese. We have four elements. We have earth, water, wind, fire, for the sexual energy we call it fire. That is a fire element. When we have when we say, when we have lows. Sexual energy we have in entire words we say phi, it mean you have no fire. No fire like that, no fire. Yeah. Yeah. That is no sexual energy. Your elements in your body is also. Important one of your elements? Out of orders? Yeah. It it gives you problems too. Sure. An imbalance. Yeah. So it sounds like the no fire is related to the lack of proper blood and chief flow, and I'm guessing that there are emotions that relate with all of these elements. Yes. The earth element, the water element, the wind element. The fire element, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very deep, and it's such a wise lineage. And just to let listeners know, the Nsai and the Chine song, the Inner Abdominal Detox, the roots are Daoist, right? They're Daoist ancient practices. The root, if you want to say yes, you can say is ta Yes. Back to the time size, we also called it in traditional time the. The 10 main lines, that line number tens is also there, but only it in my generation, they don't teach me how to touch this area. That's amazing because I, I, in some of my other trainings, that's like the most important line. That's the, that's line 10 is where the Dante is. I don't want to say yes, and I don't want to say no. And because we also have line 10 okay, I see. Okay. So no. Teacher is, today I don't find Thai teacher who teach me how to work on the really, like that. But I find and uni and Kor, who is them? Specialize in this SAI and they work on this area. Yeah. And I find somehow it connect. Yeah. So they call yes and yeah, that's right. Yeah. At Dow Gardens they emphasize the Daoist, but I see. Yeah. So many of these practices the wisdom comes from different. Sources. Of course at Dow Gardens they will say it's a Daoist lineage. KKI and I studied so she's referring to Master Montauk Chia where they have Dow Gardens and Kuni who, who is considered like a shaman. She has her own approach as well. KKI, I wanna ask you, during our training, you had told me about experiences like when you and your patient will see the same images as you're releasing toxins from their organs without talking to each other, you will. See the same images. And you shared an experience of working on a client, a male client, where you saw images of death and suffering of soldiers, and after the session he had the same images. Yes, because to me that speaks to how the practitioner is able to. Feel into the energy and sense the energy of the, of the patient at the same time? Yes. Can you share other experiences like that if they've happened? Yes. This happen often when the receive really dare to receive Yes. And to feel their bad. Yes. And to feel their body at the same times that when I apply the technique. And that is connect this connects some kind of deeper state of conscious, that we have the same. Image. Yes. That came often. Yeah. With my patients. And sometimes it'll lost someone, someone in the family is passed away. Yes. And the person still hold, this sadness, this grief Yes. In the body. Without realize that deep stand is still there. And just once you got this technique of abdominal work and it's touch it. Or I must say free, yeah. The person get the chance to free to let go this, holding thing. Yes. For years. Yes. Yes. So especially when you touch on ab source muscle, often this, show up very deep. Yeah. Wait, which muscle did you say? SOAs muscle. The SOAs. Yes, of course. So muscle. Yes. So the SOAs muscle is known at least in some of the trainings I've been at is known to hold unprocessed traumas and repressed emotions because it's so deep and it's vulnerable. Yes. Many therapists and many massage practitioner avoid touching this area because it's hard to deal with. Yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's hard to deal with because of the unprocessed emotions that are waiting to be freed, but also it's underneath many layers of two it's underneath other layers of muscle, you have to really know how to get to it. Yes. Especially work with bodybuilder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I gotta say, I think that was one of the funnest parts of the training for me was getting to the SOAs. The Tibetan culture calls the SOAs Mus the muscle of the soul. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's profound. So I feel like what you're speaking to when you talk about touching into the consciousness of the patient and the unprocessed emotions that is waiting to be freed you're really, you've developed such a ability to listen, which with your hands, ability to listen and be present with your touch, that meeting allows. Of course there's technique, but the safety that you hold and the presence that you bring to it feels like it's very important in freeing those emotions and stagnation. Yes. And the same times you must protect yourself and you must have your boundary when doing this deep healing, when. Work that you're not so interfere? Yes. Or not to get how you call that to get, you are there touching the person, but the same time you are not in their field, you know you are out of them. Not mixing in their story in, in, in their past or in their. Emotions. Yeah, sure. Natural. Was It's natural. Yeah. Yeah. Natural and and touching the ground. You must be really grounded. Yeah. So both you and your teachings and Montauk Chi's teachings emphasize the real importance of using the universal life force energy and not your own personal energy. Because exactly what you're speaking to not mix your energy with the client, but to hold a safe, neutral space. The importance of using, of clearing your energy field before and after sessions. Kookie, have you seen some dangerous things happen when people are using their own personal energy? Yes. Yes. It can drain, it can, you can feel really. Exhorted and sick after, because you're taking on that energy, it's almost like a open container that's taking on the energy, the negative energy of the client. Yes. Once your energy are different and when client or your receiver have released negative stuff, which is not the same as your, the different. Levels of a wave I call, I must If you don't have the same wave, yes, you'll not get it. If you are in the light and if the darkness is coming out and you are light. Yes. So there's an emphasis on clearing your energy practices like Qigong and Tai Chi and really connecting to the earth and nature. Exactly. Yeah. Kki, before we end our conversation today. I'm wondering if you can share some advice to our listeners for how we all can keep our reproductive centers healthy with healthy blood and chief flow. Yes. The first very very simple exercise that you can keep this area healthy. I think most of people know. That is a root lock. Yes. Root lock. Or contract. The pers, yes. Contracted me. You can, men and women you can do anywhere but either sitting or standing, or even talking or cooking or anywhere, yeah. So you just contract. Do as much as you can and every day. And so it's very simple. Yeah, it's very simple and you can do it anywhere. And it makes sure that the the blood flow is healthy and that the muscle of the pelvic floor remains dexterous and healthy as well. Yes. KI wanted to ask you the line 10, the line going from the belly button to the pubic bone. Yeah. Do you recommend that we. Press into that line to increase the blood flow. Yes. You can do like self massage. Not only on that I call that six o'clock, yes. Not only that place, you can do in general the HIN song, or the, the self massage, the technique. Yes. And you can practice on yourself daily or when you got a chance. Before going to bed, or maybe before you get out of bed in the morning, you can certainly massage your internal intestinal organs feeling for any lumps or bumps and just doing small, loving circles or. Holding and releasing, but that line from the navel to the pubic bone which we referred to before, it can really increase the blood flow and energy flow into the pelvic floor. Yes, kooky. Kooky is not your real name. How did you get the nickname cookie? I probably, I like to eat cookies. You like to eat cookies. But today I'm like, I've love cooking today and planting. Yes. But actually in Thai we call cook, just cook. And is I got it from the father of my daughter. He uhhuh, he call me to make it a small, like a cookie. Oh. Oh, I see. Okay. And your real name is Sani Bunum. But I love Cookie and everybody calls her Cookie. Thank you. Yeah, no, and I think it fits you so well. Kki thank you so much for sharing your journey and your insights and your, just your knowledge with us today. It's really so valuable and so important that we keep our reproductive centers healthy in natural ways that the body responds to. It's my pleasure. You're welcome. Yeah, and thanks to you. For your interviews. Yes, of course. Kki, thank you again for being with us. And if listeners are curious at all Lloyd Crow massage offers a real wide range of traditional Thai massages from osteo tie to reflexology to the practices we just spoke about the inner abdominal detox massage and the inner genital massage. Yeah, if you wanna learn more, please visit those sites. Lo Crow massage. Yeah, so that's L-O-I-K-R-O-H massage.com and lo Lotus Blanc cookie. Thank you so much. I hope to thank you. Yeah, I hope to see you again soon. Thank you very much. Very, thank you, Ika. Notice how this episode is landing in your body. And if any part of your body is calling for touch, support, or attention, what it feels like to provide this to your body. If you feel called to explore your senana, the send line 10, it can be self massaged when lying on your back. Simply envision the energy meridian line going from the base of your navel down to the center of your pubic bone. You can explore any points along this line, including the southern most wind gate, about one quarter centimeter below the navel or the dian, about one and a half inches below the navel, or at the other end of the sun line just above your pubic bone center at the indentation point where your pubic bone dips into the soft fleshy part of your lower abdomen. Simply press into any of these points along the line with one or both index or middle fingers. And when this is done quite deeply, a pulse can often be felt, especially at the Dante end point. And simply hold the point on this line for one to two minutes, then release. Often a fresh flow of blood and cheek can be felt moving along the send line and into the genitalia pelvis. This can be practiced in bed before sleeping or upon waking, or even during self pleasuring to explore the different arousal and pleasure sensations available when stimulating your chief flow. When doing so. Notice whether there's energy movement that can be felt along the sand line or within your genitalia and pelvis. After stimulating points along this energy meridian, however subtle or pronounced, and notice how this feels in your body. In the next episode, we explore the perspective of a western O-B-G-Y-N. My dear friend Dr. Jen Lang, and how her natural birthing experience deeply changed her life and her approach to delivering babies for her clients, and how the holistic approaches to pelvic care we've been exploring in these last episodes can coexist with a Western approach to reproductive care. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share with your tribe, or leave a review. By subscribing@organicsexualitypodcast.com, you'll also receive additional insights from the episodes as well as the free organic sexuality ebook. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health, Podcasts on Pelvic Healing Modalities **Tags:** Abdominal Organ massaage, Chi Nei Tsang, Karsai Nei Tsang, Nuad Karsai, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Taoist sexual practices --- ### [Pleasure as Medicine: Pelvic Healing & Sexual Recovery](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) **Published:** March 23, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we better attune to and listen for the guidance of the body’s pleasure for its own healing? Listening for the answers to this question with his heart, intuition, and hands - combined with his deep understanding of how to restore healthy fascial lines, re-align anatomical structures within the body, and hold a safe space for trauma resolution, today’s guest Martin Beaudoin shares how he’s cultivated unique and effective practices for his wide range of clients and for his students. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Pleasure as Medicine: Pelvic Healing & Sexual Recovery # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how pleasure can become a pathway for healing and how the pelvis holds both trauma and potential. You’ll learn how reconnecting to sensation supports recovery and transformation. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/BeaudoinMartin.webp "BeaudoinMartin | Rahi Chun") [BeaudoinBodywork.com](https://www.beaudoinbodywork.com/) Email Martin at: BeaudoinBodywork@gmail.com. About Our Guest: Martin Beaudoin’s interest in bodywork began at a young age as he was drawn to energy work, Swedish massage, reflexology, and understanding the anatomy. During his career as a Linguistics and Speech Pathology university professor, he offered massage on a part-time basis to family and friends. In the last 12 years, his work has evolved into a unique and dynamic synergy of craniosacral, myofacial, neurokinetic, CNT/KNT, Tantric, Thai and Reiki influences to resolve trauma, or any obstacles in the way of how life force wants to flow organically through the body. He’s experienced in Dr. Gabor Mate’s Compassionate Inquiry training and also the Father of 2 grown children. He is currently based in Vancouver offering sessions to clients, couples and tailor-designing trainings for practitioners, as well offering group trainings in Portugal, Bali, and Oregon during 2023-2024 season. ## What You’ll Learn About Pleasure, Pelvic Healing & Recovery $ How Beaudoin Bodywork utilizes pleasure points in the pelvis to re-align healthy organ placement, increase blood flow, and resolve muscle/ligament inconsistencies efficiently and effectively. $ How Martin involves the partners of clients during sessions that call for utilizing pleasure to restore and support healthy pelvic re-alignment. $ How enrolling 20 Tantrikas to explore their potential for embodied pleasure lead to many potent discoveries about how sexual arousal and pleasure can be utilized to reclaim and restore a healthy pelvis and sexual wholeness. $ How massaging the K-spot can increase the body’s natural progesterone production, resolve ovarian cysts, and support the resolution of endometriosis symptoms. $ How Thiele stripping benefits the relaxation of the entire pelvic bowl by releasing tension in the pubococcygeus, illeococcygeus, coccegeus and obturator internus muscles. $ How incontinence, menstrual cramps, and a tilted uterus are amongst the most common issues presenting within vulva-owners. $ How a retroverted uterus can increase miscarriages for 500% and are being experienced by 30% of the female population, and how this can be resolved within 15 minutes. ## ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How to resolve pelvic pain and scar tissue healing somatically](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [The principles and practices for genital de-armoring and pelvic healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [The keys and techniques for expanding genital health and pleasure explained](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [How essential genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing is for a responsive pelvis](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [How to transform genital numbness or pain into arousal and pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-to-restore-genital-sensations-pleasure/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. How can we better attune to and listen for the guidance of the body's pleasure for its own healing? Listening for the answers to this question with his heart, intuition and hands, combined with his deep understanding of how to restore healthy fascial lines, realign anatomical structures within the body. And hold a safe space for trauma resolution. Today's guest, Martin Bois shares how he's cultivated unique and effective practices for his wide range of clients and for his trainings. I am very excited to invite Martin Bo to the podcast today. I've been wanting to have Martin on the podcast for a while, ever since I did his wonderful training in Mexico in December of 21. There were pelvic and sexual healing practices I had not been exposed to in my other trainings. And I really searched the world for great trainings and I was so lucky to have discovered his. It's a testament to his hands-on experience having held space for literally thousands of sessions over the years. And I think also to his natural curiosity and intuition. A little bit about Martin's background. His interest in body work began at a young age when he was a teenager drawn to energy work, sweetish, massage, reflexology, and anatomy. During his career as a linguistics and speech pathology university professor, he offered massage on a part-time basis. And today his work is a very dynamic and unique synergy. Listen to these influences of craniosacral, myofascial neuro kinetic Chiang car song, tantric Thai, and Reiki influences. All to resolve trauma and any other obstacles in the way of the organic life force to flow throughout the body. He's experienced in Dr. Gabor mate's compassionate Inquiry training and also the father of two grown children. Martin is currently based in Vancouver, but offers trainings in Europe. There's one coming up in Portugal soon. I took mine with him in Mexico, and he also is taught in Bali and Thailand. Check out his website bois bodywork.com for his current offerings, and I will have his link in the show notes. Martin, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Rahi. It's an honor to interview here with you. Oh, I'm so glad, I'm so glad you're here. For our audiences, some of the practices that I was referring to that were specific to your training that I hadn't been exposed to before, for example, were the discovery and the really important anatomical area of the case spot or the stripping. But before we get into those, I th I thought a good jumping off point would be to ask you, Martin, looking back now on your journey. Of how you've combined and synergized these different approaches to your work. Can you share the pivotal experiences that have really informed your approach and understanding to resolving issues in the pelvis and the body? Great question. There's many aspects. When I started to, when I left the university and I really wanted to make a difference for women's health. I really wanted to specialize in in. Body work for women because of course men and women have similar organs. Similar bodies. But the way you work with men and women physically even from a massage therapy perspective is slightly different because some muscles don't attach the same way, but also men and women use their bodies differently. For cultural reasons, for because of procreation that is different. And so initially I was I had no inkling on working genitally or even on the pelvis specifically because I wanted to I didn't even, I was not aware that it was a a big need. And then as I was working with women, I realized that. Almost every woman I worked with had gynecological issues or sexual issues that were completely unaddressed by the medical system. And so that was a big, rude awakening because I trusted that gynecology and urology were treating our women well. But that's not the case. And so that's the first big awakening. And so I started to work with Al Neuralgia incontinence prolapse uterine prolapse initially mostly, and different things like that. And gradually one day one of my client told me. What is wrong with my pleasure, Martin, you've been avoiding, I've been experiencing pleasure and every time I experience pleasure, you move away to a different point. And what's wrong with my pleasure? Why should I be ashamed of my pleasure? And she was teasing me, of course. But it made me realize that it's true that in body work, in massage therapy, we, whenever we work with the body, if there's pleasure. We shy away from it very often. Most jurisdictions do not allow pleasure and really it's completely stupid. It's giving a culinary experience, going to a restaurant and telling people, please don't enjoy, if you enjoy, we'll have to give you something bad. Do you want vinegar with your soup? And then when I started to accept. People's pleasure as a normal experience, not something that I would push or something that would come naturally. Sometimes. I realized that it brought huge openings in the body. It moved organs. It released blood flow. It released nerves, and so I started to open up to exploring those. And I'm, I still have it. Researcher's brain. And so I started to experience and research and expand talking to different Tanika. So I enrolled a group of probably about 20 different tantrica and told them, listen, I'm gonna give you. Free body work in exchange, you guide me to the most potent pleasure you can experience and with my hands. And and then we've explored and we've uncovered points that some of them had read about but had never experienced and so on. And it gradually I was able to map out the points, but also. To map out the impact of those points. And I realized for example, that some of the pleasure points influence hormone levels, some of the pleasure points eliminate cysts, for example, and other points will move the uterus up and down in a resilient way, in a sustainable way. So I and those are some of the techniques that I've developed over the years. So those were the two most pivotal points in terms of techniques. Then there's all the there was a lot of work or a lot of awakening about the the impact and the importance of trauma on the body. But that was more long term. That was not as much specific moments. Yeah. That really stood out. One, it doesn't surprise me to learn that you were looking at the whole body first, because in the training there is such an emphasis on the role that fascia plays in resolving issues. The interconnectedness of all the fascia, like the emphasis on the deep front line is something in particular that, that stood out for me. And then it makes sense to me that the more you worked on bodies, the more you realized how Yeah, our whole medical industry really is so neglectful of female health and specifically around sexuality. One of my best friends is an an O-B-G-Y-N. She says, pleasure is not taught in their training. It's all about hysterectomies and delivering babies. The other thing that stood out, Martin, is exactly what you're speaking to, is how much of your training included pleasure as a methodology. For resolving issues. I just love how matter of fact you are, I remember you, you sharing about uterine prolapses and how stimulating the clitoris engages the cremaster or the iliacs muscle, and it's just a very. Practical way of resolving a prolapse. I think one of the questions that would come up for listeners is the issue around a practitioner working involving arousal and pleasure with a client and the boundaries involved. So if you could speak to that please. 'cause I think it would be on people's minds. Of course. It's very important to have a serious discussion with the client on. What they want to experience, what they're open to and really to explore their boundaries. But really to have the boundaries have to be set by them initially. Really, that's the most important part. I always have a discussion at the beginning of sessions if, especially with new clients, we will always discuss about their history physically, their social history, their family history their sexual history, and see where they're at the moment. It really depends on the person. And sometimes before we, we can go on working for example on the uterine prolapse with pleasure, we need to do a lot of back work. We might need two, three sessions of trauma work or of building the really the confidence in the person that. They can, because a lot of people have an orgasm. So there, there's many things that needs to be built and it really comes from the person's history. And then it's a discussion with the person to really uncover their own boundaries. And we only do what they're. What their body and what their heart tells them. If they're not comfortable with a procedure, we don't do it. Of course. And also another thing that is important is that I very often involve the the partner. The therapy. For example, if a procedure if a procedure involves body work that will eventually necessitate. Pleasure. What I'll do is that I'll ask the partner to be there and I do the body work, so I'll do, for example, I'll work with the nerves or with the fascia. And when time comes to bring pleasure, I essentially I give my place to the partner and the partner does the pleasure as I'm leaving and they do whatever they want. I give them all the instructions, be. For, and usually what they'll do is that they'll start. They'll do the procedure. If the procedure involves pleasure they do that form of pleasure, and if they want to expand into their own sexuality, they, they can, but they don't have to. It's really, or, and sometimes they ask me to stay in the living room while they're working in the massage room or something like that. Sometimes they ask me to be there because they need guidance, because some of the, pleasures are quite technical and some of the couples are okay with that. So it's really their choice. I would say. The situation with probably half of my clients is that I'll do some of the body work and the partner does the pleasure work. In other situations, the the partner and the and the client is totally open to me doing pleasure work. You have to remember that the pleasure work is very aimed. It's really aimed at something very specific, bringing a sexual process to. To move an organ or to to release, increase blood flow. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's really being used as a tool as you pointed out, to move organs to increase blood flow, to resolve nerve pinching or, and so I want to get to one of these points. It's fascinating to me because the case spot. The Kundalini spot is not a spot I had come across in any of my other trainings, and it has such practical functions. Not only does it increase the body's natural production of pres progesterone it can be used to resolve symptoms of endometriosis. As I learned in your training, it can lubricate the anal sphincter. Tell me, were you, I'm fascinated with this data research you did with the 20 Tanika. Can you share how you came across the K spot and why isn't, it's not that well known. It seems out there amongst the Tantra trainings and the sacred sexuality trainings. Yeah, and it's a pity because it's such a powerful point. Ah the main person who brought me to that point as a pleasure point is a Tanika tantra teacher from Portugal, Isabelle who, who said that she had read about it but had never experienced it, and she brought a student of hers to observe the the experience. When we did the the session, it took probably close to an hour of only stimulating the case pot. And she had this wave of pleasure. Her body lifted off the ground completely, and she went into something that. Looked like a, I see. And so we took our pulse for the first probably 15, 20 minutes every five minutes. My god. We would take her pulse because we were afraid that she was dying, having a heart attack. Yeah. And and at some point she. Raised her thumb. So we understood that she was okay, but she couldn't talk and move for a good 45 minutes. So that was the first experience with the the K spot. And we started to, I started to experience that with other clients. And similar experiences happened. But what I observed with the K spot, at some point I had a client who had ma major cysts. Ovarian cysts. She had a eight centimeter cyst and a five centimeter cyst on the other side. Those are major cysts, and she was going to undergo surgery in the weeks that followed. So she asked me to do three sessions. One of the first thing I asked her is. How is your sexuality? And she said my, my partner is an amazing tantric practitioner and but we've come to have very boring sex. And she was very frustrated. Not with the frequency, but with the variety. And I said why don't we try to address first the frustration and second. Try to bring you new pleasures and at the same time. And so I, and she didn't she said, yeah, sure. So she told me what she was accustomed to with her partner and he had never touched the the case pot, of course, like most people. 'cause it's quite it's a little bit in the back. Yeah, it's, so we did that. And she absolutely loved it and had a wave of pleasure and their pleasures were increasing and we would do three hours in a row of those orgasms. We did three sessions, but every, at the end of every session, we would notice major changes on her belly. The first day we could see her cysts when she was laying down, you could see both cysts. At the end of the first day, we couldn't see them. And we could palpate them, but we couldn't see them. And then second day, we couldn't palpate them or see them, of course. And at the end of the third day, she felt like completely energized and rejuvenated, A bit tired. Of course, after. Three sessions of three hours of orgasms. But yeah, she went she went home they flew back home. She went for surgery three days after they did an ultrasound to check the status. Because she said. Some things changed and, they did an ultrasound. They could not even find where the cysts were initially. Wow. There was nothing, no, no traces of the cyst in nine hours of pleasure. And and she called me and she was completely baffled. And the doctor was baffled. Didn't believe what ha what she had done right. Just thought they resolved on their own. They might have burst or something. They couldn't find anything. I started to explore and of course the universe being so generous I had a whole bunch of people with ovarian cysts following that, and it worked with everybody. I've had sessions with people with whom for example, for people who didn't want to go into orgasm, but were open to some level of pleasure and so we would do. Slow buildup of pleasure. And when they were come to pleasure, I would just we would stop back up and let them rest. And even in those cases, there was some result not as effective. But it did help. So that's how I found out. That's so amazing. Okay, so for listeners, the K spot is on the floor of the vaginal canal. If one is lying on their back, between the perennial sponge and the posterior Forex there's a little dip there and it's just right of center of the rectum. And Martin, in your training, you had shared that in about 90% of bodies you've worked with, it's just right of center and about 10% it's left of center. Is that accurate? Yep. Yeah it's, it just depends on the position of the rectum really, because the the case spot when you work a, it's throughout the whole width. But it's more in, in, for most women it's more pleasurable when it's accessed through the vagina for some reasons. Men also have a case spot. And in my experience I have some clients who say that they do experience. Pure pleasure with the case, but male clients in the past. But for most men, it doesn't really bring pleasure, but it can be used to lengthen the pleasure, for example, if you're getting pleasure and genital stimulation as a man, and at the same time someone stimulates the prostate when the orgasm come. If you turn your finger and massage just. Below the co essentially is the place where the case spot is. You will lengthen the orgasm by a lot, like by tenfold. That's worth noting for Matt. Yeah. So then just to note on that, Martin ergonomically if the prostate is being stimulated, then the finger needs to turn the other way towards the Yes, exactly. The cotton. Yeah. So there needs to be enough lube for the finger to turn fully the other way. Yeah. That is fantastic. The experience, since your training I've been introducing the K spot and clients have been really fascinated. Most people have not had, don't even know it exists, much less have had it palpated. What's very common in my experience is that first they've they sense something, but they'll be like, oh yeah, there's something there. It feels kinda weird. But then within a matter of minutes, it'll start to evolve into more pleasurable sensation. And then, as you shared in, in your training, it's an area, it's fascinating because the more it's palpated more, it will elicit pleasure. Yes absolutely. It's also it's a point that personally I stimulate initially at the same time as the clitoris. So that because the brain doesn't distinguish where in the pelvis it again, it's getting pleasure. And because most pleasure comes from a combination of. Putal nerve, mainly with a little bit of the genital femoral and sometimes the vagus nerve. And so the the pleasure is not a distinct it's very difficult for the brain to know where the pleasure comes from initially. Yes, exactly. So you stimulate both at first, and then you release the slowly you release the clits and maintain just the case spot, for example. You can continue with both, but if you want to reactivate the case bot, eventually you want to stimulate it alone. And another aspect that really helps activating any of those points is to blow warm air on the genitals. So opening your mouth, fairly warm fairly wide and blowing air. With a mouth open very close to the genitals that, that sends pheromones in, to the vulva That will help your, the body of the recipient to produce oxytocin. And oxytocin allows the the vagus nerve to be more activated for pleasure. Because it brings it into parasympathetic. And then gradually the the pral nerve is also more sensitive. But Martin, so just to be clear I remember you teaching that and I, it, it does have an effect in my experience with clients who are comfortable having warm air blown. And I've been focusing on focusing the warm air on their clitoral area. But that would have a similar response when the cervix is being stimulated as well. No. Yes, it's, for the cervix, it's almost critical to have oxytocin, high oxytocin in the body. As a practitioner, I don't have I usually don't bring fuzzy feelings to my clients. I don't have a personal connection or a sexual connection with them. And and it's it's, this is an important part of having a therapeutic relationship with them, but. To bring oxytocin up in their body. There's two or three different ways to there's actually many ways to bring the oxytocin up and so yes blowing warm air on the genitals is one blowing warm air on the anal area or on the breast. We'll also do less effective on the breast, but it's still, it has some impact. Within partners of course they have access to the breath, but they can also have oral sex. So they can lick the nipples, they can kiss the mouth, they can lick the genitals are, or like the the anus. And that brings even more pheromones. But as a practitioner we don't do that. Currently. The breath is a very good way to increase the pheromone if the person is open to it. Of course. Yeah. Terrific. Before we leave the K spot, I feel like we've been massaging the case spot for a little while here. How did you discover, or how did you learn, come to learn? Maybe it was with the 20 Tanika that palpating the case spot produce stimulates the body's natural production of more pro progesterone. That's experience. Because as I was using the the case spot for cysts for example and also for some women, the I have some clients who will come for example, and say that the, they want to expand their sensations. They want to feel more of their vagina as we would uncover different points. From session to session, they would they would say this change in my body, my breasts are changing. The, and things like that. And so by observing I've come to, to observe really systematic changes. For example, the case spot in general in my observation, seemed to increase. Progesterone. It seems also to clear it brings blood flow to the ovaries and the uterine tubes or fallopian tubes. For example some women will have congestion in the fallopian tubes or even blockages and. It with the stimulation of the case, but we've been able to clear some of those congestion and that, so that, that helps quite a bit. But we know that if you stimulate the case spot on a regular basis, the progesterone in the body will increase in general. So the estrogen, progesterone, balance will change and because we have in our society a very high incidence of estrogen dominance, which is dangerous for the body I've used the case pot many times with people with very high estrogen, low progesterone to bring the balance. And it's quite fast two, three sessions. And generally the the balance will change. You will see, for example, the redness in the cheeks of the person. And the cheeks will become more puffy. The breasts will become more round, very often. And so that helps. Of course in terms of estrogen dominance, estrogen, progesterone, dominance. Another thing that is critical is to make sure that the body eliminates the estrogen properly. And so it's always important to make sure that the person has a healthy liver. And so I work a lot with massaging the liver to cleanse the liver, but also sometimes I will guide them to liver detox or have them work with a naturopath to cleanse their liver. So liver eliminate estrogen and the, the guts will reabsorb some of the building blocks to create progesterone from what used to be estrogen. And yeah. And another point that is important in estrogen dominance is also making sure that the stress level is reduced as much as possible. Because otherwise the building blocks to create the progesterone will be reabsorbed to create. Other are hormones if there's too much cortisol in the body. So the third components of rebalancing procedures. When you said earlier that two or three sessions will, can balance an imbalance between increasing the progesterone production in the body. After two or three sessions, does the body, does the client need to self stimulate, continue to self massage the case spot, or does it, does that two or three sessions kind of balance it for unforeseeable while. Hormonal imbalance are long-term issues. And so it's, I see it more as a kicking start, but they often need to change their diet because a lot of our diet includes too much testosterone builders, too much estrogen builders. Also a lot of people have liver functions that are too low. So we need to work with that. Plus there is a lot of phytoestrogen and xenoestrogen in in food and in chemical products. Shampoo from soap and all of those soap. There needs to be a life change, a lifestyle change combined with that. And normally it's good to it's good enough to start the process. Honestly, though, one thing that emerges most of the time is that once they've discovered the case, but they don't wanna leave it, they'll integrate it in their sexual practices. Because it, it is a very pleasant point. Oh, it's amazing. And I, it's not so far deep in where, I have a client in Connecticut where after introducing it to her she was able to self massage it with her thumb. Yes. So it's not so far back that you can't massage it on your own as well. Yes, absolutely. But I think the key is really, one to discover it and then bring it online and once it's online, you're off to the races. Yeah, absolutely. It's, the activation of the point can be done by yourself, of course. By, by people themselves. But it's often best to done by someone who really knows where the point is and right is moving the energy at the same time and all of that. It's always good to work with a practitioner or with a partner who's really who has researched it. Yeah. As our job is often to, to to train partners, to pleasure their yes to offer proper pleasures. But, on that note, Martin, like part, yes, definitely it's great for partners to do their research, but I have never come across the case spot in any research. Have you That's true. Come across it. Nope. It's like this amazing treasure that's not really known about. Yeah. It's if we completely neglect the, what anatomically is called the posterior part of the vagina when the, when a woman is laying down on her back it's the bottom part that's completely neglected in most sexuality, in most tantric massages. And it's sad because. Why neglect that H area and there's a lot of pleasure everywhere in the vagina, even just just closer to the opening of the vagina. So you have the case spot on, mostly on the right, but sometimes on the left as well. But if you come to the center right on the middle of the rectum. Just a little bit close, closer to the opening. There's another point there that can be very pleasurable. Yes. My students call it the m spot because I'm for Martin. Covered it. Yes. But really I, I, it's like Chris Christopher Columbus. He, he just. Rediscovered something that has always been there, I didn't make that point. It's there. But there's a point there that brings in my experience, it brings joy. It's a very joyful pleasure. Not always available to everybody, but if you cultivate it, it's beautiful pleasure. It's not on my chart, but it should be. I love the word you use cultivate, because that's really what it calls for. All of these areas, it's people go to the gym and they work out their muscles, but they don't work out the, these anatomical regions with Intravaginally or even intra anally, for men, for cock owners. And it's all waiting to be discovered. Absolutely. And even for women, there's a lot of pleasure to be had. Emily. Yes, I do discovery sessions sometimes with women to awaken the rectal points. There's many points in the rectum. First in the rectum from inal work. You have access to the G-spot, the a spot, the cervix, and the K spot. Yeah, but you also have access to other points, other pleasure points on the pikas that are potentially very orgasmic. Wonderful. Wonderful. The other thing I wanted to touch on, because I feel like. It's such an easy way to release tension in the pelvic floor was the stripping, so specifically releasing tension and massaging the pubic ogus, the ioc, coist, the coist and the operator internist. I know that term, the stripping, I think you explained it was actually applied on, on, on men's bodies way back when, and then someone rediscovered it. How did you come across. The stripping and it is, it has such I can't imagine anybody not benefiting from the release of tension in the pelvic bowl. I'm curious Parton, how you came across it and how I'm guessing you, because everybody benefits. Every SI session involves the theo stripping. Pretty much, yeah, mo almost all I almost always do it if I do internal work, either from the vagina or the inus. I almost always do field stripping. There's two other techniques used by pelvic floor specialist or a physiotherapist to release the pelvic floor muscles. There's also a trigger point release, which is essentially pressing on three different points. The interesting thing is that those points were discovered by thi the Charles Thiel the man who also the developed the the stripping. And so thi one, teal two, teal three are the original names. And then they were change when people started to develop the the trigger point techniques. Then there's also pulsations that can be done in on those points to release those muscles. My, when I started to do pelvic floor work I researched and found those techniques, and the results that I observed was that very often my clients would get cramps after a single point press or a trigger point release. They would get cramps the day after and then they wouldn't come back. And so I researched and found a. Protocol that exists, that is common on the in modern physiotherapy called the Stanford Protocol, or the Gale Anderson protocol, which is a protocol that is described to have been discovered by two researchers from. Stanford. And if actually you, you read their research they took, they inspired their work from the work of Charles Steels in the thirties. Wow. So these two researchers from Stanford took a protocol from Charles Thi, who was, that was developed for anal work in the thirties. And they adapted it for men and women either anally or vaginally. And the they copyrighted it. And the only way you can use it is if you train with them directly or with somebody who has been trained with them. And so what I did is that I went, I found the article by Charles Steele, which was difficult to find and. Did my own adaptation and I put it on the internet. And one of the, it was someone from Stanford wrote me at some point and said you can't do that. That's professional secret. And I said, no, it's Charles Fields, sits there exactly. Has been dead for more than 50 years, so I can do it. And I'm not taking your work. And they also said that it was dangerous because people could heal themselves, and that's very dangerous for people's. Revenues, but it's not bad for people's help. And so I've put the protocol on Facebook a few years ago, and I can repost it anytime because I think it should be common knowledge. Sure. But I, the adaptation I made is a little bit. Deeper than what they did because I cover more muscles because my, in my experience you need to release as much of the pelvic floor as possible because most of the muscles, the fascia the ligaments work together. One thing that these, the, that the Stanford protocol neglect is that. There are fascial lines within the pelvis that need to balance. There's two fascial lines that are one over the other. I don't want to get into too much details here because it's a bit technical and people can get lost, but those need to be balanced, and so that's why. I expanded the teal, the original teal technique to cover all the fascia inside the vagina or the inus. So the technique that I teach is a little bit broader. But it's, it has also more impact on the body and I think that's why my work is so effective. It's because it covers more than just the the cos or just the Pubal cos because. Traditionally in most jurisdiction, physiotherapists are trained to only release what is perceived as tense. But you don't rebalance the whole pelvis Exactly, because what is lax is as important, is as what is tense. And so you need to work with all the tissue to reestablish balance. What they, what is missed here is that you need to bring balance in the whole area. It's such a simple way to release tension in the pelvic bowl. I wish everyone knew because it feels like it's very accessible. The other thing I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, Martin, given the thousands of sessions you've given, I can hear just in how methodical you are in answering my questions, the kind of researcher you are in, developing these methods. I wanted to ask you about the most common unaddressed issues in bodies that you see. Oh, the most common one is incontinence. 50 50% of women at 50 have incontinence. 40. At 40, and 20% of women at the age of 20 have incontinence. If you look at gymnasts for example, a very high proportion of gymnasts have incontinence and they're told it's normal because you're jumping. It's gonna, you're gonna drop some urine. This is not the case. If you do release the pelvic floor muscle, it doesn't happen. So incontinence, urinary incontinence is the most frequent one. I see. And I almost every form of urinary incontinence and interstitial cystitis can be eliminated in two or three sessions in my experience. Almost a hundred percent. Another one that is very common is menstrual cramps. You will probably never eliminate a hundred percent because there's many aspects. It can go with your diet, it can go with stress in your life, sex, absence of sex, et cetera. There's many factors in menstrual cramps, also tension in sos ias. There's many issues, but we can reduce or eliminate most cases of menstrual cramps. And the third one, which is probably the one that is dearest to my heart. Is the the retroversion of the uterus or tilted uterus, which is extremely common. 30% of women in our society have retroverted uterus and retroverted uterus. Even if it's not expressed in those terms, you can ask your OBGT friend. The most people who have retroverted uterus are, have higher risk of having miscarriage five times more. If you look at old research, it's about five times more because of the incidents of IVF. Those research has. Been, have been hidden for the most part, are downplayed because they have much more, they make a lot of money with IVF. But just moving the uterus from a retroverted to a normal position reduces the the chance of miscarriage. By a lot. And the woman will feel much better, will have less menstrual cramps, less abundant bleeding, et cetera, et cetera. And those moving the res takes five to 15 minutes. It's good to rest after, but really it's a procedure that can be done with clothes on. It's very simple to do and should be done really? Generously because. It's something that should be healed. Even you can do that even at teenage and then it's done for the life. Yeah. It doesn't move back. In most cases, yeah. If it moves back, it's because there's an imbalance in the fascia and that can be addressed again externally very easily. Yeah, it's good to consult somebody if you have incontinence bladder prolapse or anything like that. But also if you have a tilted uterus, if you have had miscarriages, most of the time we can prevent further miscarriages by just moving Beatrice in a very simple way. Yeah. And all of these were covered in the 11 day training. You have a training coming up in Portugal. Is it the same 11 day training? Yeah, it's it's six weeks of online training right at your own pace before the training to cover, to discuss all the issues. Then we have it's actually. 10 days of training, but 12 days now because we have two days of break and then people can submit case studies where I give them feedback and they can learn from the feedback. Do you have other trainings scheduled for the year? Yes, we have a training scheduled for Bali Bali in Indonesia in at the end of August 27th to September 7th. And also we probably will have another one in Portland in, at the beginning of 24, I think. Awesome. Awesome. If you wanna visit Martin's website where he's got all of his offerings and a detailed explanation of the trainings and his work, please go to Bois bodywork, that's B-E-A-U-D-O-I-N bodywork.com, and there'll be a link in the show notes as well. And for the next year at least. Martin you're gonna be in, in Vancouver for a lot of the year, is that correct? Yes, most of the time I am in Vancouver. I, of course I offer private sessions or sessions for couples, but also I'm always open to private training. Yeah. I, I must also say, Martin, like when I first reached out to you, you were open about trying to, either do a private training with me, being a male and making it work. And I really appreciated your flexibility and, really your service and wanting to train people who are willing to learn. Martin, thank you so much for, really your curious mind and your intuitive like attunement and all of your kind of research minded approach because I feel like there's so many approaches that are just serving so many people and I have been grateful to learn from you. So thank you so much for being who you are. Thank you for also, it was an honor to have you in my training and to do this interview with you. It's very rare to have the opportunity to to work with practitioner with. As much integrity as you do rahi. And so it was really never a problem to integrate you in the training. The, there's many reasons why I don't integrate men more often in my training. Of course, there's some, there's a matter of integrity with some men that I, unless I know them very well, but the problem is sometimes, in terms of practicalities, it's difficult to integrate a man because you cannot receive all of the procedures, of course. And so it makes things a bit complicated. But in your case, it was so natural because you're open-minded. And you were very open to work, giving the work and observing and participating in different ways. So it was really a pleasure to have you in our training. I really loved it and it was such a great time on so many levels. Yeah. So Martin, I look forward to seeing you when I get to see you next, maybe at the next advanced training. And in the meantime for our audience members, you can find him at his website and the links will be in the show notes. Thanks so much, Martin. Thanks so much, Rocky. How is this episode landing in your body right now? Is there pleasure that wants to be explored? And how might this be healing for your body? Are there ways you might incorporate space and time into your daily schedule for more embodied pleasure practices? Are you familiar with the anatomical pleasure points of your genitalia, how they feel, and the role they serve in maintaining a healthy and happy pelvic bowl? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pelvic Healing Modalities --- ### [Cervical Orgasm & Deep Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) **Published:** July 13, 2023 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Olivia Naomi Bryant is the creator of Self-Cervix - a body of somatic education, research and call to revolution for reclaiming and developing a love affair with this often overlooked and medially mistreated part of the sexual and reproductive anatomy. Studies show that 60% of orgasms by vulva-owners are experienced via the clitoris, 30% intra-vaginally, whilst only 10 % are experienced via the Cervix - despite the cervix being innervated by 3 sets of paired nerves (Vagus, Hypogastric, Pelvic) - the most of any part of the reproductive anatomy. We explore reasons for why this is and how to sensitize and reclaim the pleasures and orgasmic capacity of the Cervix. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Cervical Orgasm & Deep Sexual Healing # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore cervical orgasm and its connection to emotional release, depth, and healing with Self-Cervix Founder Olivia Naomi Bryant. You’ll learn how the body can access deeper layers of pleasure and transformation. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/OliviaBryant.webp "OliviaBryant | Rahi Chun") [SelfCervix.com](https://selfcervix.com/) [Science about the Cervix](https://selfcervix.com/pages/science) [Cervical Orgasm Research Project – Share your Cervical Orgasm Experience for Research](https://selfcervix.com/pages/cervical-orgasm-research-project) About Our Guest: Olivia Naomi Bryant was a Sex Educator & Sex Coach when she created Self-Cervix based on her personal journey of dearmouring her cervix. She and Self-Cervix have been at the forefront of educating, empowering and revolutionizing our understanding of the power, pleasure and spiritual potential held in the cervix. In her own words: “I started this work bc I needed to heal. I felt like I was housing a brick inside of my pelvis – it was heavy, blocked and painful. I had no libido and very limited access to orgasm. This challenge became the beginning of a big adventure. After years of following instructions, using vibrators and signing up for courses, I had almost given up. What I now know is that we are all human and orgasms of all kinds are natural for us. What are unnatural are the things that block these experiences such as shame and trauma. Self-Cervix was born as my personal exploration into why my cervix was numb and how I could turn it into an organ of pleasure.” ## What You’ll Learn About Cervical Orgasm & Deep Pleasure $ How the Cervix is the only part of the reproductive anatomy innervated by 3 sets of paired nerves – the Vagus, Hypogastric and Pelvic. And yet, for most women, it’s the least sexually responsive. $ How the medicalization of the cervix – from pap smears, to colposcopies, to LEEP procedures can leave the cervix feeling numb, un-sexy, and unaccessible. $ How receiving cervical dearmoring from a trained and trusted practitioner can serve a vital and different function – engaging different parts of the brain, body and psyche whilst in a receptive non-doing state. $ How fully inhabiting your cervix provides a different felt-sense experience in love-making that can be felt by one’s partner. This changes the love-making experience for both lovers. $ How the cervical dearmoring journey is unique for everyone – given the many factors involved. This includes history of sexuality, trans-generational trauma, collective, medical procedures, and scar tissue. $ How cervical dearmouring involves letting go of any goal. “As tempting as it is to be orgasm focussed, the treasure lies in who you become as you devote yourself to self-loving action…..” $ How bodies can have a “pleasure ceiling,” where the psyche can begin contracting or appear to be feeling “pain” when it begins to venture into new realms of unknown pleasure sensations. $ How trusting the cervical tissue to inform how it wants to be explored empowers the cervix to restore and reclaim its own agency and sensations. $ How continuing to relax the cervix into the finger, whilst letting go of any pre-conceived expectations of what pleasure is, encourages new sensations to emerge in the dearmouring process. $ How avoiding clitoral orgasms for a period of time – like a 30-day clitoral fast, can lead to unforeseen discoveries of the rich and vast intra-vaginal and cervical terrains of pleasure. $ How the Cervix responds to Heart/Love energy, whether from one’s self or a lover, and how its the receptivity to heart energy that allows for high frequency states of cervical orgasms to occur. ## ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How genital health and pleasure transforms your intimate relationships](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [The principles and practices of genital de-armoring and Somatic Sexual Healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [How erotic sovereignty and slow sex can lead to cervical awakening](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-sovereignty-cervical-awakening-sex-work-truth/) [How extended lovemaking can transform consciousness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Olivia Naomi Bryant, creator of self cervix to the podcast. Self cervix is about self-education, self reclamation, and self revolution By reclaiming and inviting a love affair with this often overlooked and medically mistreated part of the sexual and reproductive anatomy. Studies show that 60% of orgasms by vulva owners are experienced clitorally. Whilst only 10% are experienced cervical, despite the cervix being innervated by three sets of paired nerves, the most of any part of the reproductive anatomy. What is it about our current society's sexuality habits and patterns that prevents or avoids the deepest and richest of innovative sensations and experiences from becoming available? And what are effective and compassionate ways to de arm the self-protective guarding response of the cervix with patience, curiosity, and love. I am very excited to be introducing Olivia Naomi Bryant, creator of Self Cervix to the podcast today. To share her bio, I'm gonna quote her in her own words. She states, I started this work because I needed to heal. I felt like I was housing a brick inside of my pelvis. It was heavy, blocked, and painful. I had no libido and very limited access to orgasm. This challenge became the beginning of a big adventure. In the larger picture of my life, I realized that I had a longing to find access to orgasm. After years of following instructions using vibrators and signing up for courses, I'd almost given up. I decided that I must be one of those people that wasn't wired for internal orgasms, and so I decided to celebrate the pleasure I did have. What I now know is that we are all human and orgasms of all kinds are natural for us. What are unnatural are the things that block these experiences such as shame and trauma. Self cervix was born as my personal exploration into why my cervix was numb and how I could turn it into an organ of pleasure. Self cervix is so many things. It is sex education. It is sexual healing, self intimacy, and a movement about rewriting and reclaiming the cervix as part of pleasure anatomy, and it has also evolved into. A spiritual practice of inner alchemy. I also wanna read this little part, also part of self cervix. We are a community dedicated to revolutionizing the way the cervix is viewed by the medical profession, by science and by sex educators. We are a global network of practitioners, teachers, and lovers devoted to healing and exploring the orgasmic potential of the cervix. Olivia, thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you. Thank you, Rahi. It's such a it's really, I so appreciate being able to have the opportunity to share with more people about the cervix and this work. So thank. It really is a revolution I feel like your inquiry has created and that has, birthed into self cervix and the journey of self cervix has been such an incredible journey of starting out as cervical disarming, and it's evolved into such a. Experience of self intimacy and self-loving and now into this portal of exploring the inner alchemy of spiritual embodiment. There's so much I wanna explore here, but I wanna start by asking you, you share about the eighth month, the eight month journey that started with the tantric session in Bali, that led you to become aware that your cerv cervix was numb to the eight month journey of deaming it. And I'm wondering if you could start off by sharing for our audiences who aren't familiar with self cervix, what did you know about your cervical potential at the time? Because I believe you were a sex educator for many years. And what was that eight month journey like that birthed into the self cervix experience? When I, honestly, I'd put the whole concept of cervical orgasm seemed a completely inaccessible fairytale for me actually. And I was working, I was on my own sexual healing journey already, and I had trained in a little bit of sex coaching, but not nothing. That was nothing that really helped me. It, for me, it all felt very conventional and I, it wasn't giving me any access, nor were any of the many neo tantric tan trainings that I signed up for. And I really went on this o on my own pilgrimage, and that just so happened that I went through a really difficult relating experience and my whole body was shut down. And so that led me to go and seek healing and. To be honest, I actually put down the the, my ambitions of sexual healing and wellness and expansion because it just seemed like this huge mountain that with, full of potholes and landmines and really scary things that would seem like there, I dunno if, it just felt very big to me and I just gave it up. And then one day I had this healing session and the practitioner said, can you feel your cervix? And I could not. It was absolutely numb. And what I did know because of my previous readings and, my delighting and what might be possible, I'd read in the work of Dr. Barry Zaro. Yes, Dr. Beverly Whipple. Their book, the Science of Orgasm, and in there they are, they list the orgasmic nature of the cervix due to its three sets of paired nerves that are connecting into it. So I knew that there was a potential there, but it just felt so abstract to me because at that point, and I know this is true for so many of us with Cervixes, that the cervix felt very uncomfortable, numb, medicalized, not at all sexy, mostly about birth or HPV or cervical dysplasia. Most of us have experienced pap smears and, biopsies and cervical torture essentially. So the actual possibility that it was not only pleasurable potentially, but also orgasmic just seemed. Like out of range. So I wasn't surprised when I could not feel my cervix, but actually it really provided me with such deep it gave me this clue and a pathway as to why I wasn't particularly orgasmic at that time in my life. Because this place in the body, it's like the canary in a coal mine, it's like signaling what's going on with the rest of my pelvic anatomy. This is a numb, there's this actual very powerful place in my body that's completely numb, so it made sense to me that I couldn't feel a lot and I know that so many others. I had been particularly trained and conditioned to the clitoral pathway. Not only had I been trained and conditioned to the clitoral pathway, but with a very massive vibrator. Wand. It was a very important part of my journey, and so I never wanna put that down or shame at it because for me it was a very, yeah, it's very important for my own development. But there came a time when I realized that my internal world was just not online at all. There was no connection because I was it just wasn't in the range. Yes. So it made sense to me that sex was okay, but not not nothing like all these stories that I'd read about and all these potential experiences. And I do think that in my heart and soul, I had a very deep yearning to understand. All of myself, my human potential. But this, these sort of mystical spiritual experiences that can occur to us in our human experience. And I deeply longed for that sense of connection that I think that we're all seeking when it comes to pleasure and especially orgasm, like the existential connection back to something way bigger than ourselves. So yeah, that set me on the journey. And then there was, this first part was just this exploration of why is this, why do I feel numb? And that led me down the road of isn't that interesting that it's attached to the vagus nerve, which is all about regulating our nervous system for safety. And yet my cervix is numb. What is that doing to my nervous system? And then I got into a whole sort of. Interest in trauma healing and the cervical deaming and that's how I started to unlock my body very slowly over time. Yeah. So that journey, like when you talk about the journey of cervical deaming, Olivia how much of it was going to practitioners, how much of it was being with your own cervix, how much of it was being with a lover? Can you help listeners understand? Because I find that most of my clients', cervixes, are numb during the first session. And there's just this, I want to get to the Kinsey report later, but there's just this incredible void of education and understanding about the potential that the cervix has because as you point out of these three sets of nerves that are connected to it, yeah, there's a massive void and it's, it it's interesting isn't it, that there's this void around the most. Powerful place in our body. Exactly. Should be, it should be held on a pedestal as oh, this thing, but it's not sure. It's oh it is for the birthing world, of course. And a lot of my work is inspired by the orgasmic birthing movement, but this whole other area that I think when not integrated and not understood, leaves a gaping hole, no pun intended. Sure. Where the, where we could be experiencing a more multidimensional kinesthetic experience of pleasure. Yes. That's way, broader than, than, I don't really, I'm very cautious of using words like shallow or superficial, because you can have great sex without knowing that the cervix is there. But I just think that it does give this fuller mental map of what's going on inside. It really just helps orient your mind to. Deeper places inside the body that are really orgasmic, that are real and brings more reality to something that's such a mystery. The journey for me was mostly on my own. And I think that there was some sort of divine intelligence to that as well, because, it's not easy when you're also, when you're trying to heal your own pleasure body and your own sexuality, and then you're also dealing with somebody else's triggers and wounding and desires and pleasures and, so in a way it was a blessing that for a lot of this journey I have been on my own because it really has allowed me to be very pure in my my focus, yes. It's not muddled with another person, another dynamic. It has mostly been on my own. I actually developed my own. Wand, yes. So that I could do my own explorations, my own internal explorations, because most of the products that I found on the market were not long enough. Were not the right shape. So in my determination, I created my own wand, my own tool for exploration, which was amazing. And then occasionally I went to a body worker because I did find that it's great to have an assistant. Yes. It's great to be able to not have your brain, to have your brain in a whole different, wider space. Not necessarily. Attuned to the doing and the being at the same time, you can have way more of an experience of just being and feeling and experiencing with a body worker. So occasionally I had a few body workers that were I felt very aligned to Yes. I I. And once I found those body workers, I was very, sort of, I stuck with them because I found that finding a body worker, and you might have a lot of understanding in this conversation, that really has integrity and is very clean in the way they they practice. Once you find someone like that it's a beautiful gift. There were a few that I would go to now and then, but and if you have the resources to go more, more often, I think it's an amazing having body workers. So yeah. So that would've been my, mainly it was on my own. And then when I did have lovers throughout this journey, it was interesting because when I look back at, it's been this incremental sort of deepening as with each lover. At first I remember my first lover after about a year of. Of doing the Deaming work. I remember a comment and he was like, oh, there's a lot going on down there. I remember she did that and I was thinking to myself, I was like, tick little, like little proud heart. 'cause I knew that okay, so something's happening. There's more blood flow, there's more connection, there's more awareness, there's more presence. And that can be felt. So I think that's a really, just an interesting, when I talk about what I was just saying before, not having that connection, not having that place of orientation. Yeah. There is an absence there. So when there is full presence there it is, it is a felt experience between two. And then that just grew over time until my last my last lover ship, which was probably everything that I dream dreamed of, except that the. It wasn't a gonna be a sustainable relationship because of, we had a huge age gap. It was a true lover ship where we, where I got to experience the things that I'd read about years and years ago. But to be, to have contact text, know this was not a fast proce, fast process. And your journey really depends on so many things, like your availability, like a lot of people are so busy. We've got families and children and work and, this is really I'm devoted to, this is my life path, it depends on your historical trauma, your intergenerational wounding, our collective story and how much you've absorbed into your body, medical procedures to the cervix and how much scar tissue you have. I wanna say that my cervix is not entirely, there are places on my cervix that are numb, but what became really interesting through growing my sensitivity was a deepening emphasis on the energetics, which we can talk about later. But my, what I'm trying to say is that there is, that, it is, it can be a long, slow, deepening journey. And so when I read things like Five Steps to Cervical Orgasm, I'm okay, and then we have these. Unrealistic experiences on ourselves. Oh, I did these five steps and it hasn't happened. There's something wrong with me. I'm broken. And I'm like no. This is a spiritual path. The true essence of a meditation teaching, it's like, you can't. It's like, how long is it gonna take until I find God, I don't know, maybe this life, maybe the next life. You have to release the goal. You have to release that as the outcome, because that's coming from a very different place inside of you. Yeah, and really find your, find the richness in in going inward in this way and acknowledging and feeling what is there and building on that and deepening into that as you very valid. Beautiful. Human experience, yeah. To just piggyback on that, I wanna read something that I pulled from self cervix, and this is a quote. It's really important to get into the exploration and forget the goal. As tempting as it is to be orgasm focused, the treasure lies in who you become as you devote yourself. To self-loving action the way the work teaches us how to be with ourselves in a more self-aware and loving way so that we can create the conditions for these epic experiences to open up for us. And I think this speaks to the evolution of courses at Cervix, which has reflected this deep love affair with oneself and one's body. From deaming, the cervix to self partnership to sovereign heart and exploring the heart cervix, axes. And no, it, there aren't five steps to developing, a love affair with the God in you, you know that you're housing. I would love to hear a little bit about the evolution of course offerings and how I'm just assuming that this is reflecting your own evolution of realizations that your cervix has taught you. Yes, exactly. So I think when I started, I just DI had no idea ignorance is bliss. Yes. I just like, Hey everyone. We had 1600 people in this Facebook event when I started right at the very beginning, and I knew absolutely nothing, right? And I was like, Hey, we're gonna do, we're just gonna stimulate our cervix for 21 days and just see what happens. Oh, wow. And it was like, it was huge. So much came up. There was so much, like trauma came up and I was just like, oh no. What have I, what? Started here. Yeah. And then there was empowerment piece and people just being like, oh my gosh, I've never touched my cervix before and never even thought about this way. And so there was this full, beautiful reclaiming, but then I also realized that there were an awful lot of people just sitting on the sidelines being, I can't. And just completely blocked, or having experiences of repulsion when they went inside of themselves or nausea would come up as a form of armoring and, and I just realized it's super intense and not not everyone is going to be willing to just dive straight into their service and go for it. Know, like that's wild to think that you had a 21 day of just let's go. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. It's very much my stuff. Yeah. Just to jump right in. Let's do this. And then no. So much. So then I created this program called initiation, which was just slowing it all right down and let's just build a mental emotional connection with this entity, the spirit of our cervixes, the felt sense of it, just with our minds. And then at the very end, we're gonna do a first touch ritual. And it was all, Ben Martin's work was very influential to me because it was one of the only bodies of work that was really teaching empowerment, because I saw that empowerment was one of the true reasons why we had. Up with these numb cervixes, either our power was taken from us or we'd given it away. And so we had no other choice but to hold an armor intense and protect. And it was the conne this first piece was about just connecting to your cervix and realizing your power and finding tools for empowerment so that we could potentially move about the world slightly differently with our lovers and partners and with ourselves. And then, so I worked with that material for, I don't know, four years. And main emphasis for me was just trying to create more sensitivity and space in my body and heal, heal deep wounding that I was holding in my body. So that was a, that was the longest part of this work. And then when things started to open up, I really, and I got more sensitive. I started to get very much in touch with. Incredibly beautiful energetics, and that formed the method that has now become the Cervical Awakening method. Which now it's, it, a huge part of that is an exploration of sexual energetics, which I see as the kind of the next frontier of where sex is going. That as we move collectively in a conversation away from, Newtonian matter and everything is, it only exists if you can see it and feel it and taste it and touch it. And we're moving more into quantum conversations where there are scientists exploring consciousness from a quantum perspective. That became very interesting to me because I think that as we evolve. As we evolve as humans, as we heal and heal our trauma, as we tone our nervous systems, as we develop our sensitivity, I think that the way we are going to be making love and communicating with each other is gonna profoundly shift. It's very strange. I have these ways of speaking about the work, like the work showed me. I have a real relationship with the spirit of this work That's beautiful. It showed me the energetic currents that run through the body for all of these experiences that I've been speaking of. And so then a lot of the work became how do we act? How do we allow these currents to flow? What actually causes these currents to flow spontaneously. So I started to, I, so the work, that piece is all about. Embodying our power and learning that it's from an innate sense of our power, our energetics, that moves sexual energy, not from force or manipulation and from mechanics actually. That there's something deeper at play and it's the energetic piece. So that opened up some really interesting conversation and there was not a lot, there's barely any research. It's just barely any, and, the only person that I could find that was doing anything remotely similar to exploring consciousness and deep spiritual states, was Joe Dispenza. He's the only person that, has really put some sort of sciencey words around. What might be happening when we enter these meditative spaces that are transcendent or mystical. Yes. So he was like a little bit of a maybe there's something in here that's similar. But the rest of it was literally just this is what it feels like and this is what I'm, this is what I'm really, truly deeply experiencing. So here it is. What do, what do we think? So it became that exploration and then I realized, wow, we're doing all of this work and yet we're giving our power away. Actually, that came after the release journey. It was like, wow, we're, how are we ever gonna heal our armoring if we keep compromising ourselves in our loving relationships? If we can't ask for what we want, if we have no sense of connection to re-parenting our wounds, that, so we just keep playing out the same patterns which keep being stored in the body. So how it felt like this, we're doing the body work, but then we're going out in the world and we're doing the same thing. Yeah. Or we don't have the tools to manage some of the occurrences inside intimate relating. And so that started self partnership because I'd also had experiences where, I wanted this so much that I was really willing to. I was really willing to give myself away for it. And that's what, that was the painful piece for me was like, wow, like I really compromised myself in this relationship, because I, I had a projection that it was this and it wasn't. And, I had to go through a lot of heartbreak, which was, I could feel was just really impacting my body. And so it was like, okay, now we are finding out how we can feel empowered in the sexual space, but this is also about relating in intimate relating. So how do we feel? How can we find our power and in our relationships and stop, forgetting who we really are and playing out childhood wounding inside of our relationships. So that was that. And then I see now the energetics has expanded even more. And now we're looking at the cervix heart axis. Yes. Which, now we're starting to, now we're starting to blend a conversation around consciousness. Sexuality and I suppose creation energy and the frequencies that we're holding inside of our body that get activated during a cervical orgasm experience, but that we can begin to train ourselves to feel every day. And I started seeing also this misalignment between what we can do in our birthing bodies. Whether we're birthing this way or we're birthing this way what we can do we can do better in terms of our integrity and our rising up and our personal power and our sense of ourselves, rather than doing this thing that we have magic in our bodies. And then falling away from for, forgetting who we are. Let's, how do we cultivate a strong sense of who we really are through this axis? So the cervix heart axis is embodying belonging and safety at the cervix and love and spirit at the heart. So it's human and spirit coming together, half human, half divine, which is like this experience that we have during cervical orgasm where we're experiencing these transcendent, incredible, magic spiritual experiences through the human sense, through, through our senses, through our bodies. So it's just taking it to a whole nother level where. We are starting to train how much love and pleasure we can hold in our systems before we short circuit. 'cause that was something incredible that I really noticed was it was like, it's like I, I don't know if you've ever had this during a psychedelic experience where you, I've had this in a psychedelic experience and this was really interesting for me. It was after a mushroom journey. Like having, holding so much love in my body that it was painful. I've got so much love going through me right now. It's actually hurting. And I, I get how do, I don't have enough, I can't hold this. No wonder love has to spread itself around 7 billion people. 'cause it's love that is channeling through us if we're open and available. It's ex, it's like a, it's intense, it's exclusive, it's it can blow you wide open. Yeah. And so we've gotta get strong in our nervous systems and train ourselves to be able to hold this, how default mode is to, is survival and protection, so to be able to hold love and pleasure, it's like we gotta strengthen that part of our nervous system. It's so that's what the heart axis is really training. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. It does require that nervous system to be really sound and resourced and have a lot of agency. And also as we expand in our love consciousness and pleasure, like receptivity, it's gonna touch into those old wounds that is, the armor's there for a reason, so it sounds like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's there for a reason and I call it a joy ceiling or a pleasure ceiling that I find in clients, they can only, it's like there's so much, and then they start to contract a little bit because they've never expanded into that unknown pleasure, which can be very frightening based on whatever associations or wounds there. From childhood associated with that, I wanna bring it back to initiation and release, initiation, just it, it initiating people to get familiar with their pelvises, with their vulvas vaginas and cervixes. And I think the program I did was release and I found it to be not only about cervical disarming, but it was really about disarming the entire vulva vaginal canal before getting to the cervix. Yeah. And now you've gotten to a place where, you're inviting a surrender into this vast portal, energetic and spiritual, just to make it more practical for a lot of our listeners, like when we bring it back to initiation and release. Some of the practices that are introduced. For example, Suzanne, really loves the exploration of feeling the finger with the cervix rather than just feeling the cervix with the finger to wake up those touch receptors of the cervix. Or like microneedling, she's really, I'm curious if there are other practices that our listeners can start exploring on their own or through one of the self-service courses. Like you mentioned the self-service wand, which is like such a unique and incredible offering. What are some ways for listeners to start exploring whether their cervix is numb? If they've never made contact with it before? Or start to deam it themselves the way you did. Yeah. I'm laughing because, start to explore it the way I did. I was like, just dive right in, now it's like this funny thing. I met these amazing midwives and they're like, okay just go for it. We can actually impose so much fear on it, we can build it up to be this huge thing. And so I also just wanna name that, like remember, you're powerful. You can you've got this, and first of all, I think it's really good to know, have a range of where your cervix might be, because I thought my cervix was just gonna be straight up, because that's what the anatomy textbooks said cervix looks like. It's straight up there. So I spent the first couple of weeks of my journey just like going up there I know it's some somewhere up here, and I was like, I must be on my cervix, but I'm not really feeling anything. That makes sense. Then one day I was just offroading, what's, how else is going on here? And I found my cervix right over to the left Uhhuh, so it was on the left wall. And there'd probably be a lot of, my abdominal massage people saying, oh, you can realign this, you can realign this. But, and I have done a little bit of work around that, i've surrendered into the fact that's where my cervix just is resting. It's, that's what that's where it is. So if you find it there, it's okay. You can work to move it, but it might just go back to where it was this so you've got these ligaments around the cervix. So the, a really good place to start with your practice is working around the cervix and seeing how it feels around the cervix. 'cause often the ligaments are the things that are tight. Because it's the ligaments that pull in when you're in fear and contraction. When a person is birthing and the cervix isn't opening, it's often because the ligaments are not allowing it to. So it is, that's where we actually wanna start working. So like around the cervix more than directly on it. And I found that actually helps the cervix relax down and realign. It can be quite hard to reach, depending on your cerv, where your cervix is placed, depending on your anatomy. Like I have a long body and short arms and a T-Rex body, so it's it's quite awkward. Squatting is good and actually Suzanne, she taught me years ago, you can actually, it's not very sexy, but you can, if you really need to, you can sit on the toilet, you can do it right there. 'Cause of the body is positioned. You're just trying to shorten the torso. And to be honest, like I said, like you said, often so much of our armoring is way before we get to the cervix. If you are curious and you wanna know where your cervix is, then yeah go to your cervix. But There is a lot. Other, there are a lot of other places that might need some loving touch. If you find a place as you go about your exploration that feels numb, or feels acidic, or feels a little painful or tight, just spend some time on there just pressing into it with your finger. I like to bring my mind into the space between my finger and the tissue. Really, I start to find like that micro attention. And then I really like to just, I don't like to push so much as I like to let my tissue guide me. I like to lean and just let the tissue let you in. So you're really teaching the tissue how to that you respect it and that you're not gonna do what has been done in the past, and that you really trust the intelligence of the tissue to move itself. And it's cool when you do that because the tissue actually starts guiding your finger. It will actually, kind of start signaling either with sensation or with melting, oh, come this way. Oh, it's over here. And so it's a very cool little journey you can have if you're willing to start following your finger inside of yourself. And then once you get to your cervix, I always say there isn't a right way to, to touch or dma your cervix, just what is right for you. So this is really about your own exploration. So I found that for me, I like to have consistent patterning of touch. So like circling my cervix for a while, a little while, as long as I can manage actually. It gives my ti my brain time to presence. Oh, okay. There's some sensation there. Oh, okay. It's moving in this direction. And that is what I found started to awaken presence and sensation at my cervix. That's fantastic. A consistent pattern. That's really fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you can just underscore that Olivia. 'cause I think that's a really important insight is the consistency of a pattern until there's this brain felt sense connection of what's, of what your cervix is experiencing is like a way of waking up those touch receptors. That's right. That's right. And then the interesting thing about that is, pleasure is perceived. So you, if you really surrender and open your mind, it's possible because I've done it to transmute or transform this touch that might be neutral. In your felt sense experience of it to something that starts to become pleasurable. A different kind of pleasure, potentially. But that's why you have to have this open mind. And sometimes you might feel a referred warmth in your belly. And so you're just actually looking for what feels good. Because we can go into this with a very fixed mindset. I'm not feeling anything. What's the point? It feels numb. It feels uncomfortable, and it is like this fixed, it's just stay with that. And so it really requires a releasing of what you, what is predictable, what you imagine what, like what you already think is there to just open up and be like, all right what else? Let me breathe and relax a little bit more. And the more you can relax into your finger the more space is created for feeling. So that's another really important key. So the repeated pattern and just this continual sense of relaxing through the cervix into the finger. So those are two little things. If you feel. Resistance. If you feel repulsion, know that it's a beau of actually a very, it's a gift, even though it's deeply uncomfortable. It really will. It just shows you, okay, there's some love here. I need to claim back for myself. This is not mine. This is old. Doesn't belong to me. I am now reclaiming my body and I'm gonna breathe through this. And, it's I like to think of parts of my body as personas, so there's a little part of you that, that is, is feeling sad because you think it's repulsive, what would you do to a little child who is feeling repulsive? You'd be like, it's okay. It's like I'm here. It's it's hard for me too, but I'm breathing. I'm here with you. I'm, yeah. I love you. It's starting to have this new relationship with it. The other thing that can come up that's, that can be difficult is the void, is the numbness. And so I just wanna repeat, stay with it. It shifts, it transforms. You have to be willing to go into the void and trust, you have to be willing to create inside of the void. Creation is a very important word, I think. Our minds are very powerful. And so in this void space, that is nothing, that is emptiness. Make something up. Use your imagination. I say to people who feel anxious that they rely a lot on fantasy for arousal. I'm like, oh, you've got a great gift. What an imagination. Let's put this inside of the void and see what you can create there. Is it colors? Is it like, what does the texture look like? And so you create something inside of there that begins to open up a something Yeah. As something that they can hold onto, because. Emptiness is, it's very uneasy feeling. What I'm hearing and what I feel like has been echoed by Suzanne's work is really rebuilding trust. If the cervix is used to being banged up against or being snipped at, or, whatever the procedures are, then its wisdom is going to have it protect itself. So it's really building kind of a new relationship and a new way of a new way for the cervix to learn how it can be listened to and attuned to, and be presence with. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's about trust. I always say, your cervix just wants the same thing that you want. Love, presence, attention, it wants to feel safe. So the only way is to start being with it differently. Yeah. And so that's part of the cervix, heart access work. It's like being with it differently. Holding up. A different emotional state and I wanna put in these words often come up impatience and frustration when it comes to our sexuality, when it comes to our orgasm, impatience and frustration, judgment, shame, all of these emotional imprints that we're sending directly down into the cells into the tissue. And, it's so important to start going Okay. That's been there. It's, I'm very present and that is not safe for my body to open. Yeah. There's a lot of, we come into this work with so much ambition. We want what we want and that's fair enough. But, ambition has expectation tied into it, and then there's disappointment and then there's blame and shame. And it's like you, it's a true spiritual practice of presence and acceptance of this is what is here, and I'm celebrating that. And it's very difficult for our ambitious, driven minds to, to get our heads around. Yeah. Wanting something but not wanting it so much that it's that that we just feel expectation and disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Part of that ambition and results oriented kind of mentality or societal conditioning. I feel what I really appreciated about a lot of your material is encouraging. I read somewhere on your site an encouragement of a 30 day clitoral orgasm fast. Yeah. Because we're so trained to be stimulation and results oriented, that a lot of times it is relied on as a way to avoid actual armor or actual real material that's waiting to be metabolized and released. And I feel you know what, you're speaking of this really. Slow, beautiful love affair that develops by listening, by being with the tissues and responding to the tissues of the cervix is a new way of self-loving that is not the antithesis. Again, to your point earlier, like Littoral orgasms are wonderful, but I think as a society it's really over relied on for pleasure at the expense of the more deeper, vaginal or cervical terrains. Yeah, it is it's easiest. It requires less vulnerability. You can, you can apply some force. If nothing's happening, you can, you can. It's just it offers things that, it's useful. But, 30 days is not a lot compared to a lot and compared to what, very pure neo tantric teachers would be like, n not at all. Really just get off it and there's this. And I don't really I don't really subscribe to any kind of diet, whether it's, I don't like I don't like that. I think that we're, we need to learn to have it all in balance. And, but for me. Yeah, there's an awful lot of resistance that comes when I say, okay, we gotta, we've gotta not have ral orgasm for a while. I have to hide Of course. Yeah. Take your to away. It could be really tough, but I'm saying 30 days. When I did my first year, I think I would've had maybe four, four clitoral orgasms in that whole year, uhhuh. And it was really hard. And I thought, I'll never feel, I'll never have an orgasm again. It was really hard. And, I yeah. I just say, 30 days, I think it's fine. Just make sure, I think the main thing for me is make sure you're putting more emphasis on your internal world and your exploration. Do that more for a while. That's the main thing. 'Cause there's a lot that, there's a lot that, we have c claral orgasms because potentially sometimes we are avoiding feeling. And sometimes armoring is necessary. Sometimes it's not the right time to feel our loneliness or to feel, to feel our lack of connection or whatever it is that's sitting there, feel our grief. It's not always the right time, but it's like any addiction. If you want to go deeper, if you really want to find connection, you gotta be willing to give that up to see what is there, which circles us right back around to the conversation of being able to hold and resource yourself. Yes. Which is what the self partnership work came in and did. Because if you don't have that tool of re-parenting and learning to love yourself, you take away what has been like the. The blankie, you take away the blankie. And then it's there's nothing there that's gonna hold the, that's gonna support what might come up. If you're, if you don't have the clitoral orgasm is like the dopamine hit that's gonna make it all feel better again and cover it up. So this is an interesting line with the claral orgasm because it's so beautiful and it has a great medicine for so many reasons. And yet it has these other effects. Like it can follow an addictive track. And it can, pull the energy in the wrong direction. And it's actually then much harder to. It's like shifting gears to go back in again and feel the deeper energies that are moving in the other direction. Yeah it's, yeah. So that's where I sit with it. I'm very moderate with that. Yes. 30 days is enough to create a new pattern. It's great to kind of reship the focus. The clitoris is not going anywhere. It's a time to create new neural pathways and to discover, it's if I'm already, if I'm always eating, potato chips before a great. Homemade dinner, I'm not gonna enjoy the dinner. So it just a 30 day fast is not that big of a deal. But I love, no, I love the emphasis and in the advanced practice, when you get really practiced at your internal world, actually, you can actually use the clitoris as part of it. It actually has its own little current moving between clitoris and cervix. So it's the cervical, the clal energy can kick up into the cervix and actually inspire it only. For me that came way later. These are the kinds of insights and understandings I would be so excited for, like mainstream society to know about, like just what you pointed out there to you, it's it's part of your journey, you know that later on you discovered how engaging the clitoris is, like sends a certain energy to enhance your cervical orgasms. And I just. Want people to know all of this, it's just so incredible. It's so incredible. Yeah, so self cervix.com. Go check it out. There's so many great courses and great material. There's a section just on science, there's a section, oh, I wanna say there's a free, there's a couple of free material, but one is how to heal from leap procedures that can damage nerves and create scar tissue and certainly create armor. And I wanted to point out, Kate shares in the document, which is free, it's free to download, go to self cervix.com, how her leap procedure at age 25 not only altered her sexual embodiment and libido and pleasure, but her whole zest for life. Yeah, it reminded me of Naomi w Wolfe's book Vagina when she talks about how her orgasms went from being color to like black and white. And yeah, if you're listening and you've had a leap procedure and experienced some kind of shift in sexual responsiveness or sensations go to the resources section and you can download how to heal from LEAP procedure. Do you know, is there an alternative to leap procedures? Yeah, there must be safer ways is, the thing is, it's very difficult for me to talk about this 'cause I'm not a medical procedure, a PR practitioner, and I know that this could be triggering for if you've got some listening. Got it. I wanna just offer an option because in No, no way do I wanna take somebody's, I understand this can be a very scary situation. I think that the doctors tend to rush in and they tend to make it very scary. So then we are rushing in and actually it takes a very long time for these things to develop into something life threatening a very long time. So I would, I say from myself, my personal. My personal opinion is weight. There are alternative healing. There's a alternative. You can heal naturally. There's a lot out there on the website, on the web right now about protocol for healing naturally. So I would go down the, that road of like supplements and lowering stress levels before going into any. Invasive medical procedure that cuts the cervix. A hundred percent. That would be my recommendation. But I also, every woman has to make this dec, every person with a cervix has to make this decision based on what they feel comfortable with. But there is a long time between development of these things and actual cervical cancer yeah. So protocols of supplements if they do search on the web, there are alternatives to heal naturally. It can take about a year or two to heal naturally. So you can you might wanna go back every six months and see if there's a progression, but if there's no progression, just keep going. Keep trying to keep doing the healing work naturally because interestingly, I found a lot of people who end up developing cervical dysplasia, myself included, we'd had a lot of emotional trauma before that. Actually occurred. And so it's, it seemed to be this Yeah. Like a reflection of something that had been going on emotionally hard stuff. Yeah. That was manifesting in the uterus that was coming out and presenting at the cervix. I see. And so the healing is, yeah. Releasing the stress, releasing the grief. There's a lot of, and a lot of su different kinds of supplements. So that would be where I'd start looking. Yeah. That touches on the really important acknowledgement of how, we've talked about the heart cervix connection, but how profound the cervix really does respond to. To love, whether it's with oneself, whether it's with a lover, like when it's it's almost like the cervix is attuned to the love energy and really responds and opens up to that love energy, whether it's from oneself or with a lover. And I know that the opu puncture point of the cervix is the heart, isn't it? Yeah. I believe that it shares a channel. Yeah. I believe that it shares a channel. Yeah. For me, it's all about what we can do once we start elevating the energetics, the state of our body, our emotional energetics and how that actually has this effect on our sense our coherence so we can create a coherent state. And this coherency allows, all, allows our body to move into these optimized have these optimal experiences. Yeah, it makes sense to me that, that love. This emotional. Peace is really allowing the cervix to relax and open because it's so multifaceted. Like it's multidimensional, it's it's chemical, it's nervous system. It's energetic. It's all of it, but the heart is at the center of it, and I'm now like really feeling into the possibility that the heart is the foundation of cervical orgasm. I'm really feeling into that. It's the, this heart energy that is a allowing for these. These high, I'll just say the words, high frequency states of orgasm to occur. Because, yeah. I won't go any further into that. It's, no, that's, it's, that really, I think that, that succinctly encapsulates it, and I think it really reflects the work of self cervix and the courses you're now offering. It's really exciting, that you're bringing this world. Yeah. And I wanna to the world go back to basics as well. I'll go back to basics. 'cause I do know that that is a next level conversation, so we'll be starting the self-service experience, I think, in a couple of months. And so we start right back at the beginning again, and, we really get practical and we really Yeah. And then over time it just, sure, over time we start to pull in these more esoteric ideas and, they're esoteric ideas, but they're also, invitations to embody certain states of consciousness and energy that is a, that has a felt sense in the body once the body experiences that it knows. Yeah. And to be honest, I think that I'm saying esoteric because I'm still very aware that this isn't necessarily respected by mainstream science. So I don't find it esoteric at all. If you start going into like quantum theory, it, it, it actually, you can find a lot of this based in science, but I know I guess what I'm trying to say it's. It's a less practical, we are not really having those conversations in the mainstream yet. I don't know if people are really ready for it, so I'm I need to, yeah, I'm gonna own that. I'm gonna stop apologizing for it and be like, yeah, this is cool. It's actually the coolest thing. This is cool. Possibility that we can move sexual energy through magnetics, through electromagnetic fields is yeah. Tripping my mind out. Amazing. Yeah. That's so thrilling and exciting. I love that you're really following where the energy is taking you. And I think that's just, yeah. Amazing. I think that's so wonderful. So Olivia, before we close off, I just wanna mention the Cervical Orgasm Research Project is collecting data on the experiences of cervical orgasms because no one else is doing it. I am imagining, it just must be amazing all of the firsthand experiences that people are sharing about their cervical orgasms. But you are like collecting, you're collecting data on people's experiences of that. Yeah. Yeah. And actually your question to me was really interesting 'cause I, it, I'd like to talk to you after this about potential other questions, but yeah, I, it's been very validating having so many people write in and share their experience because, one hand, the medical world will say the cervical orgasm doesn't exist. So it's very validating to have all of these yes testimonies and the testimonies range from more physical, emotion, physical experiences. All the way through to quite psychedelic experiences, seeing lights and, going through tunnels and, so it's, it is a range. And I'll always say this cervical orgasm is a spectrum. And so it's been an amazing thing. One of the, I guess one of the main, to speak to your point before, one of the main continuing or like the, a theme is that love is, seems to be present in 95% of people. Wow. They're feeling love. Yes. Yes. So that also feels very validating to me. Yeah. So I think that there's more that I can do in terms of asking, what are other, consistent things that have been present for you to have this experience love. Is one of them. Beautiful. Yeah. There's more to be done there. There's actually more to be done there and, yeah. It's cool though. Cool. I really can't wait. The reason I'm creating, I'm kind trying to get these experiences because one day maybe there'll be a book and then there'll be lots of people, not just me sharing about, Yeah. Their experiences. Yeah. I think that needs to happen. Definitely it needs to happen. For our listeners, the site is self cervix.com. There's a lot of free info. There's a lot of brilliant courses. There's a 12 month training that's gonna happen in 2024, which is very exciting. Olivia, thank you so much for joining us today. I love all that you shared and how, just how giving you've been in sharing your personal journey and evolution with me and everyone. Thank you so much. You are welcome. Thank you so much for having me. How is this interview landing in your body right now? Can you tune into what your cervix may be wanting or how it's feeling? Are you aware of any sexual experiences or medical procedures that may have stifled its voice or capacity to feel? Is there any numbness or armor wanting to be addressed or waiting to be acknowledged? Links to self cervix. Scientific research involving the cervix and the cervical orgasm project are all in the show notes. Every part of our body deserves to be listened to, honored and loved fully and deeply. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pleasure Expansion & Awakening --- ### [Genital Health & Pleasure: Understanding the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) **Published:** December 16, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Today’s episode explores 3 simple questions from the perspectives of a Certified Sexological Bodyworker, Rahi Chun, and from Dr. Jennifer Lang, Board-Certified Gynecologic Oncologist and Obstetrician: What is genital health? What is genital pleasure? and What is genital wholeness? We discuss practical techniques for dearmouring the clitoris, the G-spot/urethral sponge, the cervix, the frenulum, the coronal ridge, and the base of the penile shaft. Our conversation provides insights into how sexuality is viewed and treated from different professional scopes and lenses. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Genital Health & Pleasure: Understanding the Body & De-armoring # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore genital health and its relationship to pleasure and function with Dr. Jennifer Lang & Rahi Chun. You’ll learn how to de-armor the specific erogenous areas of the genitals and support long-term sexual wellbeing. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Screenshot-2024-12-16-at-11.39.56 AM.png "Screenshot 2024-12-16 at 11.39.56 AM") [“The 3 Keys To Genital Dearmouring for Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure” ](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) [“Consent: The New Rules of Sex Education: Every Teen’s Guide To Healthy Sexual Relationships”](https://www.amazon.com/Consent-Education-Healthy-Sexual-Relationships/dp/1641522801) by Dr. Jennifer Lang About Our Guest Interviewer: Jen received her medical education at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, completed residency for OB/GYN at St. Luke’s/Roosevelt Hospital Center of Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, followed by fellowship in Gynecologic Oncology at UCLA specializing in minimally invasive and robotic surgery for cancers of the female reproductive tract. She is the co-founder of an international medical non-profit, bringing cervical cancer prevention clinics to resource-poor countries, and the author of two books, “Consent – Every Teen’s Guide To Healthy Sexual Relationships” and “The Whole 9 Months – A Week By Week Pregnancy Nutrition Guide with Recipes for a Healthy Start.” She currently practices integrative gynecology specializing in Systems Medicine, with a focus on perimenopause & menopause and preventive oncology. She is the Mother of three children and lives in Los Angeles. ## What You’ll Learn About Genital Health & De-armoring for Pleasure $ How “genital health” can be reflected by the degree to which the body-owner can attune to and relate with their genitalia and by the lack of disease or discomfort present in the body affecting their genitalia. $ How “genital pleasure” can involve a felt-sense understanding of the erogenous areas for arousal and pleasure and how this is often lacking in the training of the Western gynecologic model. $ How “genital wholeness” can involve resolving any genital armour in the way of embodying sexual wholeness and also involve a re-education of our society regarding sexuality that involves the body’s consent and pleasure awareness. $ How the heart of dearmouring is bringing safety to the genitals, body and nervous system to metabolize emotions from past experiences. $ Specific approaches for dearmouring the clitoris, urethral sponge and G-spot, Cervix and K-spot for Vulva-owners $ Specific approaches for dearmouring the frenulum, coronal ridge, and base of the penile shaft for Penis-owners. $ How to dearmour the clitoral glans with the frenulum or the the penile raffe with the vulva’s labia. ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [Genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [Genital armouring and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [Cervical healing and orgasmic potential ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) [How to restore genital sensation from numbness or pain](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-to-restore-genital-sensations-pleasure/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today's episode is a replay of a masterclass given by myself and Dr. Jennifer Lang, board certified gynecologic, oncologist and obstetrician. We explore three simple questions from our perspectives as a certified sexological body worker. And from Jen's training from the Western medical model and her practice as an integrative gynecologist. The three questions are, what is genital health? What is genital pleasure, and what is genital wholeness? For practical purposes, we cover specific techniques for how to de arm the clitoris, G-spot, and cervix for vulva owners. And how to de arm the frenulum, coronal ridge, and base of the penile shaft for penis owners. Jen and I are close, and dear friends and collaborators, and our conversation provides insights into how sexuality is viewed and treated from different professional scopes and lenses. Jen and I are going to hold space for this hour. The format of it is going to be we're gonna introduce ourselves. We really want this to be full of practical, actionable, and effective material. So we're gonna answer the three questions that were posed, which is, what is genital health? What is genital pleasure? And what is genital wholeness from our respective. Perspectives. I'm really happy to be a part of this conversation today. As always, it's fascinating when we get to be in conversation with each other. My name's Jennifer Lang. I am an obstetrician gynecologist, a board certified and fellowship trained gynecologic oncologist. And I have a practice in integrative gynecology and preventive oncology based in Los Angeles, California. Who am I? I'm still discovering that my name is Rahi Han. I am a somatic sex educator, sexological body worker and creator of a body of work called somatic sexual wholeness which endeavors to hold space for repairing rupture sequentially That happened during the evolution of one sexual embodiment. So what that means specifically is first addressing. Ruptures that occur during the developmental years of one's evolution, and then addressing ruptures that occur during one's adolescence, which largely, have to do with boundary ruptures and repair, and then addressing any obstacles in the pelvic bowl within one's adult experiences. And over the years, I've developed a base of knowledge in the realm of genital armoring or genital de armoring, and I teach that worldwide. Let's jump into these questions. Fantastic. Okay, great. The way we thought that we would dive in is really just. Thinking about the question, what is genital health? What does that mean in your practice, Rahi? And how do you begin to even address and explore this when a client arrives to work with you? Sure. When I think of genital health, I really think about what is the client's. Ability to attune to and relate with their own genitalia. So genital health can mean like a million different things to a million different people. What does it mean to you, and that's the question I would pose to listeners whether you're here live or listening on the recording, is, what is your capacity to attune, to listen for and respond to your own genitals desires? Curiosities or questions, and I feel like this ability to attune to what it is that our genitalia wants is influenced by two, two different areas. One is the state of our nervous system, and the other is what is the conditioning messages, beliefs we received about our own genitalia growing up. When it comes to the nervous system, we know that the state in which our nervous system is in affects everything from oxytocin flow in the body to the oxygenation of blood, which affects our genital health and specifically our genital. Sensitivity tissue sensitivity. It also affects the degree to which we're hypervigilant in our mind, watching, assessing, judging, or are we really in the felt space of our genitalia? I emphasize the. Importance of where our nervous system is, because I believe that's the foundation of our genital health and our sexual health. So when our body is in what's called the social engagement stage, when we're feeling safe, the emotions most available to our bodies are those of compassion, calmness, groundedness, and I think very importantly, curiosity. So we can really be in a state of curiosity about our own genital health, our body. What are bodies wanting? And the physiological effect of this is that this increases our ability to relate and connect. Increases Oxytocin, increases the oxygenation of our blood. It increases atrocity and voice. What it decreases is defensive behavior. When our nervous system goes up into either a fight or flight mode or a fond response, what goes up are our adrenaline, our heart rate, our defensive responses, and what decreases is our sexual functioning or sexual responsiveness. And of course, when we move up into the freeze. In addition to the emotional states of dissociation, numbness, depression, shame is up here in freeze. And that's how debilitating shame is. Either sexual shame or feeling shamed from our primary group. And again, what decreases is our sexual responsiveness. This is an indication of how vital. Nervous, the role our nervous system plays in our genital health. And then the other area is really how did we learn what we believe about our genitalia? I think it goes all the way back to how we were potty trained, how we were diaper changed, what threats. To belonging or perceived threats to love. And the loss of love was there regarding how our genitals were either welcomed, shamed respected, or dismissed. And that's something that each of us, has a very unique conditioning around. So in answer to the question of what is genital health, I believe it. It really comes around like how attuned and responsive can we be to listening and attuning to what our genitalia wants. Jen. Yeah, it's such an interesting and really different view of the concept of health than that which, I was raised in a traditional kind of western medical model where health is the flip side would be disease. We think of the meaning or purpose of the study of medicine is to treat disease. And you're actually saying no, health, embracing health is attuning and listening. So if we're in attuning and listening and something isn't feeling good do we call that disease or do we call that health? It's a really interesting philosophical difference in, in mindset, and this is why I love our conversations rahi, because we can come at them from such a different training and background, but, arrive at such, similar conclusion where, you know our highest goal for the clients and patients that come to us is that there is both that attuning to. Recognizing of the voices of listening to and and the proceeding in the, with curiosity, as you said. I love that word, with curiosity of what our genitals have to say to us and how we can best care with them and for them. Yeah, I think something that you and I agree upon, which I appreciate so much, is the understanding that the body is inherently wise and has all the wisdom of knowing, what it best needs. We just need to create the spaciousness. The capacity to listen to that wisdom and actually facilitate the attuning process of what the body's trying to tell us. Yeah. Would you say that somebody who presents to you with say, pain in the, in their vulva, they're really attuned to that pain. They feel that pain on a daily basis, or they feel that pain when they engage in genital touch? What would you, how do you reflect on that patient's or that client's presentation and this idea of health? Sure. Great question. My, my approach would be the body is inherently wise, there is a reason and probably a good reason why the body is needing to guard or protect itself, which is resulting in this discomfort or pain. So what is the threat to the genitalia's wellbeing? What is it making it want to protect itself or create this pain? And like from there we can look at what's happening in the client's life now, but I tend to wanna thread it all the way back to what is this client's relationship with their genitalia and what do they believe, in regards to, their own sexuality and sexual wholeness. And oftentimes there's some sort of pattern that can be followed from their earliest years. Yeah, I'll just contribute, somebody showed up in a gynecology office complaining of vulvar pain. We might begin the process of ruling out, different kind of mechanistic, ways that pain could be generated. So we might. Check for, presence of a virus, a bacteria, a fungus. We might look at the nerves and see if there's any trigger to, we might look at skin conditions and see if there's an autoimmune phenomenon taking place or inflammation coming from any other place. And, like going down this list of ruling out. We might arrive and this is again, this is traditional gynecology, we might arrive at oh, nothing. Nothing to be found here must be in your head. And what I love about the somatic wholeness approach is it's like history, head, mind experience, polyvagal theory, nervous system set up. Is interwoven so intimately with. Our understanding of all of those other mechanisms. So it could be completely true that there is a held belief about one's genitalia's and a a bacterial imbalance that the two can coexist. That it's not like one or the other. The two can coexist and I'm always curious is it the emotions that is creating the virus or the physiological illness? Or the predisposition to it or the lowered immune system that allows, Yeah. All it's so connected. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's fascinating. That's what makes it fascinating is like no, nothing is cookie cutter. Each body has its own unique history and its emotional relationship with their own genitalia profoundly affects the state of their genitalia. Said. Said. Do you wanna move on to what is pleasure? Sure. That's a big topic. What is genital pleasure? In thinking about that question, there are like two kind of rabbit holes. I went down what is genital pleasure for one person, it could be totally different than another. And so it really calls upon each of us to understand the genital landscape of pleasure, of our own genitalia. And this is where the practice of genital mapping, like I'm a certified sexological body worker in our field, genital mapping is a pillar and all it is. A felt sense, somatic understanding of the erogenous anatomy. And I say felt sense because we can look at images and be told what the erogenous anatomy is, but it's very different than actually feeling the sensations in the body that the different erogenous anatomy are des are designed to create. And then once those erogenous anatomy areas are. Understood the com, the combination of these different erogenous zones elicits yet another kind of, symphony of different sensations and pleasure within the body. When it comes to genital pleasure, I feel like every genitalia so unique. I had a training last year and there were some vulva owners who were, who referred to their vulvas as their Cox. It's very unique. And then now, there's a, people are taking different hormones to align with the gender that they identify with. So it really, it's upon each of us to understand the. Erogenous capacity of our own genitalia. Now in concert with that, the other kind of rabbit hole that I go down when posed this question is once you understand your genital erogenous anatomy, there needs to be a capacity to give voice. Two you need to be able to give voice to that erogenous area. So it's not just that honey, my cock wants attention. It's that honey, my frenulum would love some contact or my, my, my premium would love some loving touch. Or it's not just my vagina wants attention, it's the glands of my clitoris or the base of the shaft or whatever it is. So it can be very specific and that. Really encourages and further deepens the erogenous and felt sense capacity of the genitalia. Chen, how does this land with you and what does genital pleasure mean for an integrative gynecologist? A great question, and it's, one of my, I think, major frustrations with my field is that as opposed to your field where, in a very hands-on way, you're able to. Be in conversation with the client's body around pleasure. I think I'd lose my medical license if I did that, and how insane is that? That my field it. Procedures all the time that we would classify as painful, but if we dared to give pleasure to a patient, we could, be kicked out by the board. This is a really fascinating, and this is I think why you and I professionally have collaborated so much over the years is I just know that my field has these kind of. Currently limits on what we're able to address, and if somebody comes, to a gynecologist seeking further. Exploration of their genital health and pleasure. I know where they're really going to, find the most benefit is working with a somatic sexual wholeness provider. It's not necessarily my office. So what does pleasure mean for me? It, it means that that human is able to experience the full spectrum bandwidth and capacity of sensations. Bringing, bringing joy, bringing bliss, bringing orgasm if they want to. And that they don't feel limited by some aspect of their genitals function or feeling. Is it so vague? Yeah. No, but it's, yeah. I think it, it has to be vague because it is so unique for each body. Yeah. But that, I remember when you told me how in your gynecologic training how little time was spent on genital pleasure, and yet, so many of my clients they will go to their OBGYNs seeking answers to why they're not experiencing sexual pleasure. Yeah, there, there is so little training. There's now a bit of a subspecialty moving in the field of sexual health and, pleasure is addressed there, but it's really because as practitioners we have sought this out and, we're demanding that this be just because so many patients and clients show up with this is their rightful. Goal desire to explore pleasure and, but yeah, in terms of the anatomy, the genital mapping as it relates to pleasure there's none of that, in anatomy lab, there's, a little label arrow pointing to the glands of the clitoris and, that's it, that's, it's really so limited, so un underused and appreciated. Speaking of glands of the clitoris, there are some images I'd like to share with the group here. Let's do it. As Jen pointed out like the, so here's the full. Majesty of the Clitoral network. So this is an image that, hi. So this is from Sherry Winston and she has one of my favorite, she is author, one of my favorite books, the Women women's Anatomy of Pleasure. She has given me permission to use this image. So this is all the erectile network. So you know the engorge tissue. Within the female anatomy, you have the perennial sponge here at the floor or at the base? Just inside the vaginal opening. But look at how much engorge tissue there are in these vestibular bulbs. On either. So this is under the outer labia. There's as much engorge tissue. Here as there is in a in a male penis. And yet, we're not taught this, as Jen mentioned, we're just taught that the clitoris is the tip here. The here it's labeled as head, but it's the glands and you have an entire shaft. You've got these legs. Then the urethral sponge, which houses the G-spot and the A spot or the anterior Forex area is also all engorge able as well. I shared this statistic with my class that they've done studies in America and the average American woman requires anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes of foreplay. For the full erogenous capacity of their genitalia to be available. And the average lovemaking session in America is five to seven minutes. Okay, here's another image. This is from Martin BOA's training. Again, I received his permission. So this is just some of the anatomical erogenous areas. So you have the CLS here. I don't know if you can see my pointer, the glands. The ctor glands, right? Here is the vaginal opening and here's the urethral sponge, which how just the g spot in his image. He's made the, a spot or the anterior Forex quite large. The nerve plexus is very unique in every bodies'. Configuration. So some g-spot areas might be large, might be more sensitive and stimulating. And for some the anterior fornix may be it all depends. And as you can see, the proximity of the urethral sponge here to the bladder, which is here, is why oftentimes when the root the urethral sponge is being stimulated. There's a sensation of needing to pee. 'Cause it's right up against the bladder here. Here on the bottom is the PS, the perennial sponge. Then you have the cervix back here, which for most clients I find are armored. When they first come in, because for most teenagers, they're being penetrated and their cervixes are being banged up against before they're ready. And if there's proper foreplay, then the uterus lifts the cervix out of the way of an incoming. Finger dildo or penis, you just used a word that I'm not sure all of our listeners are familiar with. Armored can, we really haven't, the idea of armoring the genitals. Can you break that down a little bit? Sure. So genital, so armor is the bodies wise. Wise and protective response when there is a threat to its safety or a perceived threat to its safety. So if something doesn't feel good, the tissues and fascia, especially because it's so sensitive around the genitalia, will. We'll start to numb or harden or create discomfort that shows up as pain or desensitization or de connection. And this is what we refer to as armor. I started to say the cervix here is often armored because because if it's not ready to be, connected with or is connected with in a rough way before it's ready, then it will start to harden or from colposcopies or the, IUD insertion or removal. Anything that makes it feel unpleasant, where it needs to protect itself, it will harden an armor. So here's the cervix right below the cervix, or right next to it, I should say. There's a little p here. This is the posterior Forex. So up here we have the anterior Forex. Anterior of the cervix. Here we have the P or the posterior fornix, posterior of the cervix. And then down here we have the K spot. So the K spot, it stands for Kundalini spot. It's hard to see here because this image is 2D and in a 3D scenario it's just center right of the client's rectum, but it's most easily accessible. Intravaginal. I'll talk about the K spot a little later, but this is just to give you a map of it. I think most of society knows about the G-spot by now and knows about the clitoris, but I don't know if people are familiar with the posterior fornix or the potential of cervical pleasure or the K spot. So again, going back to genital pleasure, these are all. Areas that are necessary to explore to gauge how your erogenous areas want to be want to be explored. And so how do you begin the process of mapping with a client? The process of mapping, the first thing is downregulating the nervous system to make sure the client can really attune. Give voice to what their body is wanting. That's foundational. Otherwise, it's a practitioner kind of doing their thing on a client's body and the sense of empowerment gets lost. So it really, there really has to be a downregulation of the client's nervous system. A practice of the client attuning to what their body wants, giving voice to what their body wants, and then receiving it. Only then is there mapping done. And so the mapping, again, it's usually after something I call full body active consent, which is like a full body massage or full body sensual massage based on what the body is wanting to explore of itself. Once their nervous system is downregulated, they could give voice to their body, what the body wants to explore as far as the kinds and quality of the touch. And then we do the genital mapping. And it's the same whether it's a male client or a female client or a transgendered client. It's really empowering the client of their erogenous capacity of their genitalia. Beautiful. Thanks. You wanted to move into male? Yes. I think most male genitalia, like it's the shaft and the testicles that get a lot of attention. But it's actually the frenulum here where the coronal ridge meets the head. That's the, that's extremely sensitive on most penises. The Corona itself, the coronal Ridge has different sensations all the way around the ridge the glands of the penis or the head as some people call. And even the urethral opening has a unique sensation. And then so below the testicles, you have the per and when a man's ous capacity is. Is filling, is getting full. The prostate starts to harden and becomes much more sensitive to erogenous stimulation. And, some people love intra anal stimulation of the prostate. It's great. It's not necessary. You can stimulate the sensitivity of the prostate when there is arousal by just applying pressure against the premium. You can stay external and still stimulate and draw arousal and pleasure with the prostate. The under shaft, or oftentimes it's called the Raffi tends to be more sensitive than the sides or the top, but the frenulum is right here. Whether it's a circumcised penis or uncircumcised, you just bring the fold of the skin back and and the coronal ridge can be explored manually. It can be explored with a tongue, but the sensitivity can be heightened with, de arming and greater sensitivity, greater attention to these areas. It's the neat thing is, I filled this with the whole genitalia and this is, key to genital pleasure is like the more attention is brought with sensitivity and loving attention to any part of the body, the more sensitive it's gonna get. So areas that are armored or desensitized can certainly become resensitized. I'm just gonna comment that something that I enjoy so much about your work, Rahi and this masterclass is just the way we are really de-stigmatizing pleasure right now. Like it, it's so funny how, as medical professionals we will, contort ourselves to avoid talking about just. Pleasure and there's such a level of discomfort that somehow pleasure for its own sake is not valid, right? That pleasure needs to be there to fix a problem or if there's some underlying. Disease or pathology That's inhibiting pleasure. Then maybe we could talk about it, but pleasure for its own sake. Still carries so much stigma and and I just feel that having these kinds of conversations is really important for, working to change that. Working to change it and just for general health of a society. Yeah. Like pleasure is medicine. Pleasure is what, it's like after you've had a great lovemaking session or cuddling or snuggling or making, there's more step in your, there, there's just more energy in your whole system. So I think it's just energy, it's life force. And I agree. I think if we focused on pleasure. As a society, not only would we be a lot happier, but I think a lot of the ailments and those diseases would would be minimized. That seems like a great segue into talking about wholeness. Yes. What genital wholeness is. Sure. How you define that. I think we've been talk like genital wholeness for me. Is like what we've been discussing, the ability to attune to and really listen for what the genital authentically desires, 'cause we, I think in our society, we often use our genitalia to perform, to affirm our sexual egos. Sometimes to distract ourselves or to avoid things, like that's all fine, no judgment about that. But to really. To really listen for what its desires are. But genital wholeness for me is to remove any obstacles in the way of wholeness. So for me, that comes in the form of genital deaming. And again, when you pose the question, Jen, like armor can come in the form of the tissues in fascia. Feeling a need to protect itself from a threat or a perceived threat. And like the obvious examples would be like a rape or an incest or a molestation, but it can also come from a. Loving couples who are in a pattern of having penetrative intercourse before the body is fully warmed up and ready. So it's really, and then over years or over decades, armor can form. And so it can also happen from situations where there's like a. A threat of one's genitalia from extreme religious beliefs. If you believe, 'cause I've got clients who were raised to believe if they're like if they're feeling sexual arousal, it means they're gonna go to hell. So imagine what that does to a child. If they believe, if they've been taught that arousal means they're going to hell and they're wiping themselves after urinating and they feel some pleasure. So this is how armor forms so genital wholeness for me. Is really removing the obstacles and armor in the way of feeling sexually, whole, and embodied. And I do wanna share some kind of practical tools and techniques for de arming the genitalia, but I want to hear from you first. Jen. Yeah, I love your definition of wholeness and I would even relate it back to what you said just a few moments before about life force and the benefits for all of society. I feel and when you were talking about the ways people use their genitals, I, what I wanted to add is, there's just so much pain and so much trauma in our society by, genitals that have been used for power and domination. You know it when you talked about in service to ego structure, like so much misuse of this beautiful life force energy for power and domination, and that has resulted in so much pain. So I see wholeness as a reeducation of our entire society to destigmatize. Pleasure to attune to the authentic kind of somatic experiencing of our own bodies to a facility with consent based language with ourselves and with partners. And to an extension of that, pleasure factory, to the benefits of the entire world. That's how I see. Wholeness and I think that this kind of bridging of worlds, there, there's definitely something that modern medicine, there's a knowledge base, there's something to offer, but it is, it falls so far short of that vision for wholeness. And that's why I love collaborating with you so much, Rahi, because I feel like these are really complimentary systems that together can lead, towards this idea of wholeness. Together, it can lead to a revolution. Yes. A pleasure revolution. A pleasure revolution. I love it. Okay. So there are specific techniques for de arming. Different erogenous areas. So I wanna share a number of them here so that this is actually practical and you can have takeaways here. Once again, Jen asked me earlier about the process of how I do dapping and I really feel like these are important steps, not only for mapping, but before de armoring as well it goes without saying, but I should. But I do need to say that it's very important and critical that the nervous system feels very safe and downregulated before any kind of disarming. Because Deaming is touching into unintegrated emotions or oftentimes traumatic emotions from past traumatic events that are keeping. The armor in place, there needs to be safety as the essential foundation for those emotions to come forward and feel safe enough to be expressed and discharged. And so just understand that the heart of Deaming is really bringing safety to parts of the genitalia that did not feel safe enough. To feel or express these emotions in the past. So nervous system safety and then making sure that the body has the capacity to give voice to what it is that it wants. If it wants to pause, if it wants to stop, if it wants things di done differently. This is really where. The Bo body's genitalia can reclaim its agency, and then after the genital mapping, some specific techniques, clitoris, I feel is often overstimulated or over relied on. It is the only. Anatomical part of the body that has no other function, but for pleasure. But it can be overstimulated, in a variety of ways. And so the easiest way to start to deamer the clitoris is a simple vaginal steam. And I recommend vaginal steaming for a variety of reasons, but that could be one easy way if the client's body is not ready to receive touch. One effective way is if I'm facing the if one is facing the pelvis to hold the clitoral shaft in place with one hand or with one finger, usually in an index finger, and making tiny little circles down along the shaft from the base of the shaft down to the clitoral glands or head, and then when there is any discomfort burning, stinging to pause. Just have the client breathe deeply into the stinging burning sensation and discharge that sensation with sound. So it might be and then emotion might come forward. It could be emotion from a past rape, it could be an emotion from something that is unknown. It doesn't really matter as long as that energy has an opportunity to discharge. Now when you are self disarming, you can do it with yourself. And a great technique is to place a finger where the shaft is coming out of the body and have part of the finger on your pubic mound where the shaft is exiting the the body and the other part of the finger on the shaft that is just coming out of the body and doing little circles, all like a semicircle all the way around. And again, if there's any burning, stinging discomfort to pause, just be with it. See if there's any memory or image coming to you, and breathe into it and discharge it with a sound. So those are some approaches for the clitoris. So the g the urethral sponge, so for the G-spot and the anterior area. I really love using organic castor oil, so I will place organic castor oil on the tip of my finger, and I will just. Once the body is ready to receive my finger, I'll just set it against the G-spot. Organic castor or the, we know the property of the castor seed is such that it facilitates more blood flow and it breaks down scar tissue. So after about sometimes four or five, six minutes, my, the tip of my finger will start to feel blood pulsing at the G crest or at the G spot, and then my finger will just mirror. That pulsing. And oftentimes the client will be like, oh God, what is that? I feel, and it'll be breaking up the armor at the G crest, and you can do that further in at the interior fornix as well. So organic castor oil. Oh, so I talked about the case spot earlier. So the case spot, so if this is the vaginal opening the case spot is just to the client's right of center and there's a little dip there. It's on the floor. So this is the perennial sponge. This is the case. But just right of center, there's a little dip. And once you start massaging gently, what I have found is the client will start to say. Gosh, I feel something, but it's just so weird because it's right next to the rectum. So it's a weird sensation. And then after continued palpation, something will happen and they'll be like, oh, I could see how eventually this could be pleasurable. And then the more it's palpated, the more stim the more sensations it elicits. And then eventually it'll be like, wow, this feels really good. And people can have. Orgasms just from case but stimulation. So there's the cervix as well, and the cervix is its own unique holy grail to honor, I'll just say that. If you're deaming the cervix, you want to be very, the cervix responds to love, whether it's in love making or a loving touch, and it's the upper left hand quadrant, so that's the client's upper left hand quadrant of the cervix. So the cervix and the Os that tends to. That often is re responsive or receptive. So what I do is I'll go in based on the client's guidance and I, the upper left hand quadrant, if there's some responsive sensation, then you just wanna expand that responsive sensation and just keep doing like either little strokes or microneedling, just like little gentle. They call it dotting or microneedling. Sometimes I'll use two fingers on either side of the O or cervix or circles. But once I find an area that has responsiveness, I wanna have that grow. And a lot of times what's very effective with de arming. Is if the cervix is experiencing a little bit of responsiveness, not that much, but a little bit. But let's say the client's clitoris is a real source of agency of pleasure, then I will simultaneously stroke both. And this will somehow, it rewires the brain because it's experiencing pleasure, but it's also experiencing palpation in an area that traditionally didn't have a lot of responsiveness, but that will start to change. You can do that with any area intravaginally. You can do it with the urethral sponge and the clitoris if the clitoris is responsive. So any area of responsiveness with a more armored area can de arm that area. Fascinating and material that I wish, was widely disseminated for self diaring and disarming between partners, partner being yeah. As well as professionally. I feel like if more practitioners had this knowledge, we would have so much more sensation and so much more pleasure accessible to us all. Think of all the, think of all the conflict within relationships that as a result of unfulfilled sexual desires. So I wanna briefly mention, so just to be fair, like some cock de armoring. So here's the cock, a really, again. Nervous system, downregulation, full body sensual massage, giving voice to what the body wants. A lot of frenulums are armored because there's a lot of, a lot of guys when they're teenagers or in their twenties, certainly when I was a teenager, will over, I don't know, I don't wanna say over masturbate, but masturbate a lot and the frenulum can start to get tense. So an easy way, tomor, the frenulum is to. Take a deep breath and on the exhale, just stretch. It just it's common sense. It's like when there's a tense part of the skin or body, you take an inhale. And just diagonally, stretch the frenulum very gently in, in opposing directions. It could be like a opposing left and right. It could be like a an X. And then with the Coronal ridge, if there's any armor or desensitization there, you can do it by breathing in and then exhaling and just stretching the Coronal ridge. So you always wanna discharge given an area of discharging any armor, right? So you're not holding in unintegrated or unexpressed emotion or experience, but you're giving a discharge to it, right? So you can do that all around the Kernel Ridge. Ah. And then, another thing for guys is sometimes the base of the shaft can accumulate armor, especially when there's a lot of performance pressure. Another way is just to grip the base of the shaft, make sure the shaft is like extended, and then on the exhale, just stretch the base of the shaft back to the left forward and right with each exhale. So essentially what we're doing with the kernel ridge, the frenulum and the base is giving more space for blood to come in to to break up any hardened tissue and fascia. Are you also using castor oil with your caulk? D armoring? You could because it increases blood flow. I tend to use organic coconut oil but castor oil is especially good for areas. That have scar tissue or have hardened, because it tends to break that up. Now you mentioned couples, Jen. So something I want to introduce is if couples wanna de arm or just have fun, you can de arm the frenulum and the, and or the clitoris by just gently rubbing the frenulum. On the clitoral glands, the shaft, or around the clitoral complex. A guy can be like on his knees and you can place a pillow underneath the female body. You can either do this intentionally to de arm if the female C clitoris is armored or if the male flim is armored because there is a energetic frequency that is unique to the clitoris and the frenulum that will stimulate each other. And so you can really de arm the fulu and clitoris that way. Or if parts of the Raffi or the under shaft are armored or places along the inner labia, you can also de arm this way and also make contact with the clitoral glands and the frenulum. Couples can, one, it's really hot foreplay, but it's also a way to bring more sensitivity by utilizing the energetic frequency of these genital erogenous areas. For inclusiveness. I have no doubt that vulva owners can dror with other vulva owners and two cocks. Yes. Two cocks at the frenulum. Absolutely. I'm sure the energetic frequencies are right on as well. It'll blow the roof off your house. Yeah. Great. How is today's episode landing in your body right now? How do you define what your genital health, genital pleasure, and genital wholeness are for you and for your body? Are there areas of your genitalia that have become desensitized or elicit discomfort or numbness that you can begin to explore resolving on your own or with a partner? And is your definition of sexual wholeness in alignment with the practitioners you entrust with the care of your body? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pleasure Expansion & Awakening **Tags:** Inspiration, Pleasure Practices --- ### [Healing Genital Injury & Sexual Trauma in the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-genital-injury-sexual-trauma/) **Published:** June 10, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How do you go about your life, sexual relationships, and relating to your genitalia after medical violations lead to numbness, and medical professionals are advising you that there is nothing more you can do? Special guests, Diane and Sophia, share candidly about their respective journeys of how they restored and reclaimed their sexual pleasure and wholeness after medical and family neglect lead to genital pain and numbness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Healing Genital Injury & Sexual Trauma in the Body # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how genital injury and sexual trauma impact sensation, arousal, and connection. You’ll learn how the body protects itself—and how somatic approaches restore sensitivity and trust. About Diane and Sophia: Diane first reached out to me about 7 years after completing 8 surgeries to remove a polypropylene vaginal mesh that had torn through her vaginal wall, urethra and bladder. Because the mesh intertwines with the vaginal nerves, removing the mesh product, also meant removing her vaginal nerves. This left Diane with no sensations intra-vaginally. Blessed with an indomitable spirit and against the advice of her doctors, she researched and experimented with various alternative procedures until finally experiencing a re-generation of tissue growth from stem cell injections. We then engaged in a combination of scar tissue remediation – to restore nerve, blood and lymph flow, and stimulate new nerve growth by gently teasing out new sensations from within the newly evolving tissue. She shares her journey and what she felt were key factors in her restoration and reclamation experience. Sophia was told by a business coach that up-leveling her business would involve unleashing her orgasm. Unbeknownst to her business coach, Sophia’s clitoris and inner labia were circumcised in a primitive manner when she was young. Although there was scar tissue to resolve from her childhood violation, there were also complex emotions to release from her body as well. Once she allowed and invited this release of her past from the tissues of her body, healthy organic sensations followed, allowing her to surrender into healthy full body vaginal orgasms. Although both Diane and Sophia endured unimaginable physical violations, it was the permission each gave themselves to feel and process the unintegrated emotions associated with these traumatic events that gave way to the return of the organic flow of energy, blood flow, sensation and pleasure. They generously and courageously share their respective journeys of reclaiming their sexual wholeness and restoring their organic life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Screen-Shot-2021-01-20-at-8.50.58-AM.png "Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 8.50.58 AM") TRE:[ Trauma Release Exercises](https://traumaprevention.com/) [NeuroAffectiveTouch.com](https://neuroaffectivetouch.com/) Vaginal Steaming: [SteamyChick.com](https://www.steamychick.com/) [STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation self study by Dr. Ellen Heed](https://courses.ellenheed.com/bundles/stream-self-study-entire-course) [Castor Oil for Internal Bodywork – article by Dr. Ellen Heed](https://ellenheed.com/castor-oil-ancient-yet-modern-medium-for-self-care/) [SexologicalBodyworkers.org](https://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/ "https://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/") ## What You’ll Learn About Genital Injury & Sexual Trauma Recovery $ “When I woke up from the surgery, I was shocked by how much pain I was in. I wasn’t expecting that because I was led to believe it was such a simple surgery. And as I woke up, my husband came into the room with a copy of the New York Times… and the warning was in the front page… about vaginal mesh.” $ How the removal of the polypropylene vaginal mesh could only be done piece by piece, when the location of the mesh could be identified due to the pain it caused, requiring a total of 8 surgeries. $ How waking up the touch receptors in one part of the body can stimulate and wake up the touch receptors of the entire body. $ How scar tissue remediation can restore blood, lymph and nerve flow, increasing sensations and aliveness in any part of the body. $ How integrating the emotional aspects of any physical trauma, including medical violations, can play a key role for the body to feel safe and trusting again to receive touch and honor its aliveness. $ How being sexually violated by a trusted relative can elicit conflicting and confusing emotions in the body associated with pleasure, guilt and shame, affecting one’s sense of disconnect with their pelvis & genitalia. $ How the body’s sexual sovereignty shows up in voicing its boundaries, consensual choice and preferences naturally and organically when it viscerally knows that it’s in charge of all of its experiences. $ “Knowing that I was responsible for my own turn-on, I no longer projected that onto the man that I was with… I was able to then verbalize with the men that I chose to become sexually active with – ‘Hey, I need to go slow. I need you to touch me. I need time. I need more foreplay’ – And then that in turn created more safety.” ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing transforms the body, mind & spirit](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) [What keys and conditions cultivate genital health and pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [Exploring the keys and practices of genital de-armoring](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today's episode explores processes for restoring healthy sexual function and embodiment after traumatic physiological altercations to the genitalia. Both of today's guests generously share their courageous journeys of reclaiming their sexual arousal and pleasure patterns. After, in Diane's case, the insertion then removal via eight surgeries of polypropylene vaginal mesh. And for Sophia, the experience of healing from childhood female circumcision. Despite the physical altercations to the erogenous anatomy, both share how critical it was to honor and hold space for the emotions associated with these experiences. In addition to resolving scar tissue and restoring the innervation that had been affected. Please be advised that both guests share in detail medical violations involving the genitalia, which may trigger strong reactions. Our first guest, Diane describes in her own words how a polypropylene mesh implanted on the recommendation of her doctor quickly tore through her vaginal wall, urethra and bladder. She shares how removing the mesh that had intertwined with her vaginal nerves required eight surgeries and a reconstructed vaginal canal, leaving her with no sensation and how after many years of accepting that she would never feel vaginal pleasure again, she found a path for restoring and reclaiming her sexual embodiment. In 2008 I had a very mild bladder prolapse and at that point the doctor said, oh, you really should get this fixed before it gets worse. You're young, you'll heal really quickly. It's no big deal. You're in and out at the hospital in a day or two and it's something I think you should do. I was very new to surgery. I'd never had a surgery before. Wow. And. So I didn't know to get another opinion. I didn't know to talk to other people. I didn't know to research what would be involved. I just took my doctor's word that I needed the surgery. Even though I didn't have any incontinence, I didn't have any pain, I didn't really have a reason to do it. But it, I just thought since he suggested it, it was something I better do. And this was a doctor who you had a long history? Yes. History. He delivered my four children and I. I, I thought he was really good, really smart, and if he suggested I do this, and he had me go to Yale and I thought, oh, Yale has to be a great place to do this, so I am going to do it. In whatever ways you feel comfortable in sharing what was your experience of the vaginal mesh once it was, inside of you. Okay, so when I woke up from the surgery, I was shocked by how much pain I was in. I wasn't expecting that because I was led to believe it was such a simple surgery. And as I woke up, my husband came into the room with a copy of the New York Times. It was October 20th, 2008, and the warning was in the front page of the New York Times about vaginal mesh. And he showed it to me. And then when the doctor walked in with his resident. I said, why didn't you tell me this? And he said I thought you'd wanna do it anyway. So we didn't tell you about this. That's like a scene from a movie. Exactly. It was literally coming out of surgery. Literally as I woke up, my husband handed me the New York Times. Oh my gosh. With the article on the front page. That was the first inkling I had that something could go wrong. Yeah. I. Okay. Went home from the hospital and I continued to be in a lot of pain. And then I started getting lots of bladder infections and I wanted to go back to the doctor, but he was out having his own surgery. Oh. So I saw some resident who really didn't know. What was going on. So then they said we could trust sex at six weeks. And since I was still in a lot of pain, we waited until eight weeks. So my first sexual experience with mesh in my husband came into me and he pulled out yelling because the mesh had scratched him. The mesh had already come down through the vagina. I went back to the doctor a couple of weeks later and he's oh, that's easy to fix. We'll just cut the pieces of the mesh that are coming through the vagina and then you should be fine. So I went back for another surgery at Yale, oh gosh. With this doctor who cut the mesh. And then that made it worse because now the mesh was traveling through the pelvis and I was in so much pain, went back to him and he was like. We can put the mesh in, but there's no way to get it out. He's telling you this now's, now he's telling me that, yeah, you can't take it out. It's like concrete, like you've put something into concrete and you can't remove it. So he had no idea what I should do. And I remember that was like around Easter of that year. And I remember going into the bathroom and thinking, I, I would wanna end this pain. I almost was suicidal. I was in so much pain. Yeah. And then I started my own research, which has been the key to everything. Just finally saying, okay, I don't believe there's not somebody who can help me. And I found a doctor at UCLA who literally. Was the only person in the world who had an idea how to get it out. And I went to see him and he was like, yes, I can help you. I can get this out, but it's gonna take a lot of surgeries and a lot of years, but we're gonna take it out piece by piece. Okay. And at that time, they couldn't visualize it. So they couldn't just go in and take it out. I had to wait for a piece to cause pain. So So that was a long process then? That was a long process. That was from 2009 to 2012. And so every time there was some pain, you would fly down from Seattle. And undergo surgery. But it wasn't that easy because this doctor became so well known. Oh. That he was booked up for months. Oh, wow. So the pain would start and I'd have to wait. Maybe six months to get an appointment. Oh my gosh. To have surgery and just endure the pain time. So you just lived with the pain? Oh my gosh. Waiting to get it out. I'm like, trying to imagine what that does to one so that you just try to live you try to survive? Try to, because after each surgery I would be without paying for a little bit. Until the, a new part of the mesh until a new part came through. There was one piece that went through the bladder and one piece that went through the urethra that caused the most pain. And so it was a long process. Yeah. And I'm guessing during this time it was sexual intercourse was not possible. No. The, at one of, at my first surgery because the mesh had totally. Done, taken out the vagina. It was like two inches long at that point. I had to have a whole vaginal reconstruction, so it was like I had, I didn't have a vagina, I had a box that had no nerves, no fat, nothing. It was just like a box. That's all that's all that it was. After each little piece of mesh would be identified due to the pain, you would come down, you would have it removed. Was it about eight surgeries then? Yeah. Yep. It took about eight surgeries. So then after the eight surgeries when Dr. Ross felt like everything was removed. What was the healing journey for you from that point on? At that initially. I guess in 2012, they, he had finally developed a way to see if there was war mesh. Oh. And he could do it at that point by MRI and ultrasound. Oh. So in 2012, he said, I think we have it all. I don't see anymore. And I, I said to him I don't have any feeling. Will I ever have feeling? And he said, probably not. Because we've taken out all the nerves. It. I remember from the documentary that the mesh actually intertwines with the nerves within the vaginal canal. So removing the mesh actually removes the nerves as well. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. When you remove the mesh, you take out nerves and tissue and so at the end of the eight surgeries. He, it sounds like he was in doubt as to whether you would restore sensation. Yeah. He didn't think I'd have any sensation. Okay. At that point for listeners, I really want people to understand what is possible, because I'm guessing that you were just in a, what was it like, were you in despair? Were you in acceptance of it? I don't, I'd always been a. Very sensual, sexual person. So for me, this was really hard because I had always loved sex. And to know that I probably would never have it back or have feeling was really hard for me, but I accepted it. And. As you go along without sex, you somehow stop thinking about it as much. So from 2012 to 2017, I just, I had have sex with my husband once in a while, but I didn't have any feeling and it wasn't a good experience really. Sure. In fact I'd get angry because he was enjoying it and I wasn't. I. In 2017, I had a massage and for the first time I had some feeling. And at that day I said, I'm gonna get it back. I'm gonna do whatever it takes to get this back. I, 'cause I, I have, I do have some feeling I wanna get more. And I'm gonna figure this out. Great. Great. Now, had you done anything between 2012 and 2017? Nothing. Okay. I'm guessing part of it was probably time. For the just for that, the body heals itself. Part of it I'm guessing was the masse the skill of the masseuse, perhaps. Yep. Yep. So there was sensation and from then on, what have you tried that works? What have you tried that was a waste of time and what advice would you give to listeners who may be in a similar situation where they've had some sort of surgery, have lost sensation, are in despair or doubt, and are wondering what could they try? I think the first thing to do is try to wake up your body through touch. And at that point, I started to have a lot of massages. And I just wa need realized I needed to be touched. At that point, and that kind of, that woke me up. Just having some regular every week massages. Yes. Just to be touched. That was the first step. Great. And then I realized that wasn't gonna be enough. And I thought, I need somebody to really work with me. And wake up my body. So I started to explore everything. I think I started with, sensual massages. So I started to explore some of the women and men that were listed under central massages. And that was really helpful. Really helpful. I'm guessing that just as you alluded to earlier, the importance of waking up your sensor, your sense receptors through touch. We know that the body is all interconnected. So as one area wakes up, it really affects the whole grid. Yeah. And then I tried a lot of medical things. I did the O shot, not too helpful, really painful. I did all kinds of lasers, every kind of vaginal laser that came out. I would try maybe a little helpful. And. I did exosomes. Which is expensive. And not too helpful. And then I did, I had been investigating stem cells for that area since 2009. And had talked to Dr. Roz about it like way early. In my. Surgery with him and he said, it's too experimental. Don't do anything more to yourself. You don't know what, what could happen. So by 2019, I found a co, a doctor who, two doctors who would do stem cells. And I did a large amount of that, and that was really helpful. Added, I think blood supply and, and just some fat and tissue. To the vagina. Because it sounds by the end of all your surgeries, like Dr. Ross said, or like you said, it was a box. It was just a box. Yeah. Nothing there. Nothing there. No. The nerves have been taken out there. So the fat's gone. Yeah. Literally it's nothing. So nothing, a massive scar tissue. Yeah. So there's massive scar tissue and a lack of really soft, healthy, vibrant, like pulsating tissue. Exactly. Exactly. And at that point, I hadn't had an orgasm in, since before the surgery. Yeah. And, I'd given up hope for that. And also a lot of self pleasure, with vibrators. And anything I would try anything to get some blood flow. I think that was critical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then the stem cells, it sounds like it was a bit of like taking a risk 'cause it was a wild west. A little bit. Yeah. Wild West and FDA not approved. But you were doing your research. You were doing your homework. And you went with these two doctors and there was it sounds like sensation was being restored. Yes. Yep. Yep. Okay. Was that around the time that, that you found me? Exactly. 2019 or so. 2019, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then, I was I found your website. I, I feel like there's a hand guiding me to these people. I literally, if I look something up on my computer now. The right person just appears for me. So your name came up and I thought it sounded interesting, and then I knew at the intake that you were gonna be different than everybody else because you took such a detailed history. I knew it was totally different. I think you were in your car after I was in my workout. Yeah. I was in my car where I have my only privacy. But I knew everything was gonna be different. I felt very confident that this was gonna help. And I think my sessions with you. They're just so important and so special, but they've worked so well on breaking down scar tissue and getting the blood flow back. Scar tissue has the effect of blocking blood, lymph, and nerve flow and the sensation and can be resolved by a variety of palpation techniques for Diane. We began each session with vaginal steaming to increase blood flow within the regenerating tissues of her vaginal canal, relax her pelvic floor muscles, and downregulate her nervous system. Inserting a castor oil dipped organic tampon intravaginally for at least 20 to 30 minutes, followed by gentle and methodical palpation to tease out new sensations. Allowed the healing properties of the castor seed to penetrate the tissues, having the effect of breaking down scar tissue, further increasing blood flow and stimulating sensation and nerve growth. Like any release of armor and trauma from the body holding space for the unintegrated memories and unexpressed emotions held in the tissues and fascia of the body was also key for restoring healthy and pleasurable responsiveness. And then there's just a psychological component to that too. Feeling like taken care of and somebody who really understands kind my body and what it needs and what it's going through. You share that now I'm realizing that it's probably highly clinical and medical. All the procedures and does not take into account, your feelings, your emotions, exactly. All of the experiences that you've endured. Yeah. My experience with the doctors is I go in, it's a very, it's usually painful having stem cells injected or, they sometimes do it by taking out fat, which is a painful lipo procedure, and it's very clinical. No one's ever asked me about. My relationship with my husband or what sex is like for me now, before or after it's just very, it's like an auto repair kind of thing. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Like you're fixing the car. Yeah. Yeah. So there's nothing about the emotional part of it, I think from 2009 to 2017. I was just going through the motions in my life. There wasn't that spark or that joy or that energetic feeling. I think colors weren't as bright. Yeah. Just had lost a part of myself. And getting it back. It's just like I'm a new person. It just feels I have so much more energy and joy and everything's better. And I had no idea that my sexuality could mean that much to me, but it really does. Yeah. I feel like I have a new vagina. It really feels like it used to. And I had no hope with that. Literally no hope. Now, my sessions with you have definitely been what's. Made the difference. For sure. It's brought everything else together. It's bridged the medical parts with the stem cells and the emotional parts. Yeah, the emotional part is really huge. Like you, you can get the massages and things. Just feeling like there's somebody who understands what the whole trip has been. Is really pretty amazing for an in-depth understanding of how in the world the vaginal mesh was approved, brought to market, and supported by the medical industry, and then thankfully removed from the marketplace. Check out the excellent Netflix documentary, the Bleeding Edge. Next we hear from Sophia whose physical altercation and subsequent emotions were very different than Diane's. Yet the space holding for the resolution shared similar principles. Female circumcision is tragically still common in some cultures. What compounded the shock to the body was that it was Sophia's beloved and trusted grandmother who took her to the practitioner, who mutilated her genitalia in a primitive manner. Compounding her relationship with her genitalia and sexuality. An older cousin seen as the golden child of the family had previously sexually violated Sophia leading to confusing emotions about her sexual embodiment as she describes in her own words. There was an a period of incest with. A cousin and that set up a whole, this whole thing in my system of it feels good, it shouldn't feel good. Sex and guilt not knowing if I could trust my body. Why do you, how are you liking this when you're not supposed to? This is wrong. And again, that that message of. My body is something to be used to, to allow that, to continue to protect my sister from having it happen to her later, only to find out that he had his way with her as well. Just, that betrayal. And of course the final, the major one would be circumcision. I come from. A country in Africa where female circumcision is still, or was still performed. And being there over the summer, visiting my grandparents, going to the clinic with what I thought was just to support my grandfather getting his shots and yeah, just being swooped up onto a table. And having this most intimate part of my body that I basically didn't even know existed. Being introduced to, a 1920s razor blade, one of those almost flipped switchblades. And having the worst pain of my life and a part of my body I barely knew existed until that moment. And then watching this man walk over to the window. And throw out a piece of, the most intimate piece of my body. The clitoris out the window only to hear the dogs fight over it. Again, the message was your body is not yours. Your body is dirty. Your body is something to be used and controlled and contained. So all of those things were formative. And then being raised in a very strict. Muslim tradition where my first boyfriend wasn't until graduate school. Yeah, kept me going was that I was blessed with the ability to orgasm just from self-pleasuring or touching my nipples and my breast. And again, because I was so sheltered, I just assumed all women had that ability. And, and so when I did learn to self pleasure and masturbate, that was my go-to. And ultimately when I was with my first boyfriend at 21 I enjoyed the penetration, but definitely that's not the way I was able to orgasm. But I knew before I ever heard of what you do. I was like, there's, my body is meant for pleasure. It's not meant to be constantly on this edge of guilt and pain. So is that to say that your sexual experiences, when you did meet your boyfriend at 21 and started having consensual sexual experiences, that your experiences were a mixture of pleasure with guilt and pain? Yeah, there, there was definitely because of the circumcision, there was scar tissue, and especially in the early days when I would first become turned on, there would be pain as I guess the tissues would stretch. And so it was always a matter of getting past the pain. Into the pleasure. For sure. Each experience where I took that leap of faith and followed my guidance and trusted myself and took a chance on me really was building that muscle towards the point where I could then listen to that. Guidance at a business seminar in Morocco saying that the next evolution and level of my business is to unleash my orgasm. I was like, what? And I remember seeing testimonials from three women that I know on your website, and I was stunned oh, this is like a secret in plain sight. And then I reached out to you and from there, the rest is history. I trust my intuition and what feels right and since a lot of the trauma in my past was perpetrated by men, it somehow felt fitting and right that the healing should also come from a man. Yeah, it's it's wonderful that your intuition was really that clear for you and also really remarkable that you recognized what kind of healing could happen given that the perpetrators of your past trauma were men. And the possibility of rewriting those stories I'm curious. What really stands out for you as having had the most impact in your journey of reclaiming your sexuality, in, in working with you? It was, I'm trying, I don't remember the names for each of the different modalities that we used, but I think it was the trauma release. Where, I was blown away 'cause I'm like, wait, I'm here to do sexual healing body work, but I'm gonna be fully dressed for the first, second, third, however many sessions it takes. I'm like, what? That kind of blew my mind a little bit because my Type A was like, come on, let's do this. And yet that would've been dishonoring. And so I think the trauma release where, you had me clench. The muscles and do the different exercises and then allow my body to let go. There was no words for that and it was really great because. I am really good at mental masturbation. I can stay in my mind all day and still get nowhere. And so it was great because it bypassed my mind. And I just remember, I think at one point just laughing like a mad woman on the ground. Yeah. And not knowing why I was laughing, and yet it just felt like such a release and, yeah. Don't. It was nice to know that I don't even need to know what trauma is leaving my body. I don't need to cons like my scared little girl that wants to control everything. It's like you don't have to be in control. It's okay to, you don't need to know why, just let it go. So that was, that for me was important. And you did, you were able to really let go of that. That was the TRE, the trauma release exercises. Okay. I re I remember it was within the same session before you just burst out laughing. Before that, there were a lot of tears and anger that were coming out of your system, and it felt like after the tremor mechanism was releasing whatever stored, emotional energy, what was underneath that was just this. This laughter, which was really ecstatic. Yeah. Yeah. I felt like a crazy woman, but I was like, all right. And that's the other piece that I think prepared me to work with you is that I decided to let go of pride and ego, like nothing was more important than me living my best life. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. So yeah, that was. I don't know if that was like the first or second session, but yeah, the, I think the first three sessions were just the nervous system reregulating, the TRE and the neuro effective touch. Yeah, the other, there were three other pieces that really well, like highlights for me in the journey. One was the vaginal steaming. I was like, you wanna put what where? I was like, I'm sorry. Hot stuff shouldn't be anywhere near my pussy. No, that's not okay. But it was really interesting to actually trust my body and feel into it. It was just such a, it relaxed a lot and actually, I don't know how or why, but I do think it made a difference to. Some of the final pain in the scar tissue from the circumcision. Yeah. I don't know if you recall, but I had asked you to apply some castor oil around your clitoral complex and castor oil is just, it's a, the properties of it are known to increase blood flow, to resolve scar tissue. And so the effect of the steam allows those properties to penetrate through the tissues of the scar. So I remember that and after that I bought some teas at home because it was like, oh, that feels really nice. Yeah, I remember you sharing with me. I remember you being just like a raised eyebrow as to whether but then I remember the before the next session you had either texted me or called me and asked. Asked to have that ready. Yeah, I did. That's right. I think, I mean from what I recall, you started to experience more sensation. True. More. More in your genitalia and your pelvis than you had previously. Yeah. Yeah. It made a difference and I could tell a difference in between our sessions. I'm trying to think. There were two other pivotal moments for me that stand out, and again, I think it's, is it neuro effecti Touch? Where, yes, I'm lying fully clothed on the bed, and then you're basically having me tune into my body and how it wants to be touched or supported. And I just remember the moment first of all, it was weird and bizarre. I'm like, okay, like I have to tune into my body moment by moment, in my life, I'm used to just tuning into it for a moment and then ignoring it for hours. So that in itself was a paradigm shift. And I remember asking that my left shoulder blade wanted support. And again, I'm fully dressed on the table. And I remember you put your hand behind my left shoulder blade and I just started sobbing. And I just, I was like, it was literally the first visceral experience. A having my back. Literally of being supported. Yeah. So I'm getting, it still brings me to tears. Just what a simple thing. There's no way my conscious mind could have said this is what I need for sexual healing. I need you to put a hand behind my shoulder blade. And yet, because you kept guiding me back to myself and my body. It also reinforced that my body has a wisdom that as much as it's been beat up and put down and traumatized like it. Sure. Sure. And it was skillful of you to listen to what your shoulder blade wanted in that moment, and then to have the courage to voice it and then be open to receiving what it is that, that your body wanted. It really, it was a turning point. It was huge. The area, Sophia's body asked for me to support. Next to her left shoulder blade also happens to be the backside of the heart center and hands placed on the backside of the body, such as this tends to provide a sense of support for that area. In this case, her heart. After asking for and receiving the support behind her heart center, Sophia unexpectedly purged much like in a plant ceremony physically and energetically. It was after this purging that significant sensations within her pelvis and genitalia returned, allowing for her body to experience vaginal orgasms so that she no longer had to rely solely on her breast sensitivity for her arousal and pleasure as she describes. Because I remember there was one session I don't remember which one, but you gave your body a lot of time to wait before asking for touch. And I don't know if it was 30 minutes or 40 minutes, but it was quite a long time. It was like 45 freaking minutes. And I remember I was freaked out, but I, that was, I think that was like the next step and I. Naked on the massage table, face down, covered with a sheet. And my mind wanted to be like, okay, let's go. But when I tuned into my body, it was like, not yet. Not yet. And I remember in my mind thinking, oh my gosh, I'm paying for this. Time is going by. Like I need to do something. And it was such a pivotal moment too, because. Again, the experience of being naked covered only by a sheet in a room with a man and to be safe. To me, that was an oxymoron in my past. To be naked in a room with a man was to be, quote unquote asking for it, or, as my mom had said at one point in the past, you deserve whatever happened to you. And that was just for kissing a man, let alone, laying naked in a room. So there was this, it actually was the thing that I needed most was the visceral experience of being safe. And that my, what my body wants in any moment comes first. And then I can change my mind at any moment. And it's still okay. Like I could say, yes, let's start and five minutes later go, no. Stop. And I was like, really? This is okay. I'm not gonna get beaten up, put down, talked down to whatever it is called a tease, all the things. It was truly a healing moment for me. Or a healing 45 moment. How wonderful that you had that communication channel open with your body and that you could listen and choose your to put what your body's needs as, as first, rather than what your mind, all that mind chatter because all that mind chatter, it's happening to us all the time, the rationale and all that but you really chose to. Put your body in the driver's seat. And it sounds like that was it's interesting. It's almost like the body needs evidence or proof that it is in charge or that it can be safe. And I'm so glad you had that experience and you, me, permission, I remember voicing that to you and you said to me, it's okay, I've had sessions where it's three hours of don't touch me. And I was like, really? This is okay. It took me voicing my discomfort. And you giving permission or validating? No. Hearing you say, no, I'm not. I'm not angry that I'm standing here in the corner waiting for permission. I'm like, really like that? That was very freeing. I would say for me, the other, the biggest thing was. By the time I was ready to do, the pelvic work or the Deming, or to actually have you touch me, intravaginally or the stimulation. It was just like, it was safe and I trusted you and I trusted myself, and I knew the parameters and I knew the guidelines and the boundaries. It was like, oh, okay. It was safe and for me it was. And again, I don't know, I don't have the words for what you do, but the helping me remap where all of that pleasure that I used to get just from my breasts or my nipples, I'm like, it's like having my vagina come online and my clitoris, it was just like, whoa. If I thought an orgasm was good before it was like, holy cow. And now even if I do. Self pleasure. It's like my breasts feel good, but it's like my clitoris and my designer are like, Hey, I want in on the game too. And I can't remember if it was after the second or the third session, so I think we only did three sessions last year, but that was, that got me where I was ready to go and, I remember walking out and being turned on and wet for three or four days after that. And I was like, holy cow. Is this what teenage boys feel like where, a good stiff breeze gets you turned on. I was like this kind of nice, distracting but nice, and then continuing to do the work, releasing the weight, feeling safe in my body when I came back to see you. I guess last month and being ready to relinquish control and my next thing was, okay, I wanna know what it's like to have multiple orgasms and to no longer be like, no, I don't want it to come from my breast because that's a bad thing. It's no, this is all part of the pleasure buttons that I was given. So it's just, to have practice being with. Safety and boundaries and listening to our bodies and tuning in more than once an hour or once a day, yeah. And that's a lot of those are really important points. Sophia is to really place your body as a priority, listening to your body and placing its wants. As the primary driver so that your body does feel safe and that it is in charge of what you receive and what you voicing, what it is that it wants to receive. So I'm curious so the sessions we did were about a year ago, and then we had to check in about a month ago. I'm curious how the integration process had been for you over the past year and what you notice about your body that's been different. The nice thing is I didn't have to make a conscious effort to do an integration process. It was like we did what we did and my body just went from there. I think it flowed over into all areas of my life because I was dating and. Part of that whole old sexual trauma was the discomfort of going past third date without having sex. But as a result of our work together, it was like, no, like I could tune into my body and go, no, not yet. And knowing that I was responsible for my own turn on, I no longer projected that onto the man that I was with. So if I'm on a date and I'm getting turned on, that's great. And he's not the source of my turn on. He's only one source. And I was able to keep connecting with my body and go, no, I don't wanna have sex with him yet. No, I don't actually know this man yet. No I don't feel safe yet. Or I do feel safe. And I was able to then verbalize with the men that I chose to become sexually active with, of. Hey, I need to go slow. I need you to touch me. I need time. I need more foreplay. Hey, I need you to, breasts are off limits until I'm ready, or I give you the, it just changed my confidence and my trust in my body and my ability to communicate it. And then that in turn created. It was self-fulfilling prophecy because now I trust myself. I don't have to, I don't have to trust the man I got. I've got me, I can trust myself. Yes. And so that translated to confidence in so many ways. So it sounds like you've got your own back now. I love the way you just put that yes. For listeners who may have had similar experiences, both Diane and Sophia share their advice for listeners who like the advice that you have for listeners, because you've been on such a journey, right? The advice that you have for listeners who may have had a medical procedure. That resulted in either an increase of pain, a loss of sensation. What kind, what would you like them to know? Okay. I'd say the first thing before you do a procedure, just research it to death to find out if you really need to do it, and look at are there different ways to do it that might help your recovery? Might, just. Might not lead to so many issues. So be careful, get different opinions and don't rush into anything which I did. Then the other thing, don't think you're too old for sex. Don't give up. I love that. Don't think you're too old. Don't think it's hopeless. Don't listen to doctors who tell you that. There's nothing else you can do. We've done it all. Do your own research. Go outside the box. Follow the leads. You'll meet one person who will lead you to another person. The very first thing is to have compassion. And to treat that part of you the way you would if it was your child or someone you love. Because many times we're so mean to ourselves. Mentally, logically, we know it's trauma, but we're like, get over it. It's been so many years. What's wrong with you? When we would never speak that way to someone that we love. So compassion and also owning it, I think was like the first step to, to be able to say I'm broken, but to use that as an empowering place. In the past I would say I'm broken, but it was more of a victim. He, woe is me. I'm never gonna be fixed. Whereas it's okay. I'm broken and it's like stepping on the scale. If I don't know where I'm starting, I can't fix it. But to come at it from a neutral place of, okay, there's this thing that's not working for me. And taking back the power. So yeah, owning it, being kind to yourself, there's so many ways to do it, but the trauma release, I think was huge. And reaching out to someone that you trust. And just know that you're not alone. We know that unexpressed emotions live in the body, but even with physiological obstructions, it's vital to invite a safe space for emotions associated with events of the physiological trauma to be felt expressed and honored. In addition to addressing the physiology of scar tissue remediation and regenerating tissue and nerve growth as necessary, are there parts of your body that endured a physical shock or trauma that may have emotions to express or perhaps a violation of your boundaries? Involving your breasts, pelvis, or genitalia that are calling for your attention, how would it be simply to listen with your hands, with your heart and your compassion? How would it be? To support these parts of your body and listen for what they have to share with you. Links to scar tissue remediation, neuro effect touch and vaginal steaming can be found in the show Notes thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pain, Scar Tissue & Recovery --- ### [Pelvic Pain & Scar Tissue: Healing the Body & Restoring Function](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) **Published:** May 6, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Chronic pelvic pain involves an intersection of biochemical, biomechanical, emotional and scar-related influences that can be properly addressed via the 4 Domains of Health which Australia-based Somatic Sex Educator, Lorraine Pentalow, details in-depth sharing the methods and processes she used for resolving her own chronic pelvic pain as a case study. We also discuss Lorraine’s other specialties - how to address and resolve erection and ejaculatory challenges. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Pelvic Pain, Erectile Dysfunction & Scar Tissue: Healing the Body & Restoring Function # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how pelvic pain, erectile dysfunction and scar tissue affect sensation, movement, and sexual experience. You’ll learn how trauma and physical restriction live in the body—and how somatic healing restores function and comfort. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/LorrainePentello-300x300.jpg "LorrainePentello | Rahi Chun") [LorrainePentellow.com](https://lorrainepentello.com/) [GAPSDiet.com](https://www.gapsdiet.com/) [EllenHeed.com:Castor-Oil-for-self-care](https://ellenheed.com/castor-oil-ancient-yet-modern-medium-for-self-care/) *Today’s Guest:* Lorraine Pentello is a Somatic Sex Coach who has worked in the field of sexuality for over two decades; initially in entertainment then moving into embodied practice. She has undertaken training in Sexological Bodywork, Somatic Sex Coaching, Embodied Counseling, Scar Remediation, Craniosacral Therapy, Urogenital Bodywork, Interpersonal Neurobiology, Trauma Informed Practice and EFT, and she continues to expand her education. Her sessions are conducted both online and in person and can include a combination of guided somatic practice, breath work, pleasure coaching and bodywork. She is queer, polyamorous & sex worker inclusive. ## What You’ll Learn About Pelvic Pain, Scar Tissue & Erectile Dysfunction $ “The pain that I felt when I was moving my pelvis… and also the pain I would feel in certain sexual positions… and also the difficulty I would have with digestion… were all linked together,… I thought they were all separate issues… but I learned that these things are all connected… and they all link together in this holistic way… “ $ How Lorraine’s chronic pelvic pain, unresolved by medical professionals she sought out, was finally resolved via the holistic approach of the 4 Domains of Health, which helped guide her path into sexological bodywork. $ How chronic pelvic pain involves multiple domains that intersect and affect each other, namely the biomechanical, biochemical, emotional, and scar tissue quadrants, and for Lorraine, how this also affected her proper digestion and painful menstruation. $ How emotions stored in the tissues and fascia of the pelvis can be viewed as reminders for the body-owner that there is unresolved material from past or current experiences that are waiting to be addressed and honored. $ How the GAPS diet was the first step for Lorraine to resolve the scar tissue wreaking havoc within her pelvic bowl in order to create an anti-inflammatory environment, clean the quality of her blood, and produce a healthy bacterial intestinal space – so that scar tissue would no longer proliferate. $ How the tendrils from scar tissue can grow inside the body attaching organs and ligaments internally causing pain, and how manual scar tissue remediation massage can break up the scar tissue and return proper organ alignment for a healthy internal landscape. $ How giving sexual consent that is opposed to the body’s true desires and boundaries can cause pelvic floor contractions contributing to scar tissue formation and ongoing pelvic pain. $ How ejaculation challenges for penis-owners tend to involve biomechanical issues – often bad habits of masturbating quickly since childhood, or emotional aspects involving fear which up-regulates the nervous system, and how learning simple techniques involving breathing, body awareness, and edging can support creating new extended responses during sexual pleasure. $ How erection challenges involve healthy blood flow and thus, in addition to addressing any circulatory issues, how working through the emotions of shame or guilt, or resolving scar tissue from a previous surgery that is now in the way of blood and Qi flow, are often key. $ How becoming intimately familiar with the felt sense of how the pelvis contracts and expands via Lorraine’s guided somatic exercise can guide one to their place of relaxed and healthy pelvic embodiment and awareness. ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps on** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How genital de-armoring and pelvic healing transforms relational intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) [How to resolve painful sex and scar tissue from the body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/painful-sex-postpartum-scar-tissue/) [How pleasure is medicine and can be utilized effectively in pelvic restoration](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [How restoring genital health and pleasure can transform your life force](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained/) [How to practice genital de-armoring techniques that lead to wholeness ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-health-pleasure-explained) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Lorraine Penal to the podcast whose areas of expertise includes resolving chronic pelvic pain, scar tissue remediation. And erection and ejaculation experiences for penis owners having resolved her own chronic pelvic pain by applying the holistic approach of the four domains of health. Lorraine is intimately familiar with both the issues and what is required for their successful resolution as she details for us here, in addition to sharing her experiences. Of how to support erection and ejaculatory issues to resolve at the end of the podcast, she also guides us through a beautiful somatic contemplation for becoming more attuned with the detailed musculature of the pelvic floor. I'm delighted to invite Lorraine, my friend, colleague, and fellow. Sexological body worker and somatic sex educator back to the podcast for another round. So Lorraine and I met in the scar tissue remediation and management training couple of years ago. And she's a fellow somatic sex educator who's based in Australia. And we've just been in touch ever since. We've had peer supervision calls. We've belonged to a. The same study group over the years with continuing to deepen our understanding of scar tissue remediation and management. And it's a joy to welcome her to the podcast. And I wanna start by I think I shared this before Lorraine, but I really wanted to. Have as many hands-on practitioners as guests because we see a whole range of different somatic issues issues that show up in people's sexualities. And I feel like what we get to see, what we are so privileged and honored to hold space for. Are things that the general public should know about because there are a lot of folks who are carrying around unintegrated emotions unresolved. Experiences, whether it's in their pelvic floor or anywhere in their body involving their sexuality, that's keeping them from really fully embodying their sexuality. And yeah, I wanted to hear, I want sex pos to share our experiences of those so the general public can know as well. I would love to invite you, Lorraine to. Share with us your journey. Specifically what were some of the influential experiences that led your path to becoming a somatic sex educator and doing this work? Ah, thank you for asking Rahi, and it's lovely to be here with you today. One of the things that was resonating with me when you were speaking before is, one thing that I found really difficult was having pelvic pain and going to doctors and then telling me that there's nothing wrong with me, or it's all in my head, or they don't know what's wrong with me. It's even frightening. Then. There's nothing wrong with you. My pelvic pain was one of the reasons that led me into doing somatic work. It started to become obvious to me about 10 years ago while I was working in strip clubs. I've been in the sex industry for almost 23 years now and started off in entertainment and then slowly moved into. Sexual coaching, which I absolutely love. And there were two reasons that I started to make the shift. One of them was this chronic pain that I was feeling in my pelvis, which. Like I said the doctors didn't know what was wrong with me. And my body worker at the time, my myofascial body worker was saying, it's your work. It's the way that you're moving, your body is causing this pain. So I knew that I couldn't stay in that industry for much longer. And one of the things that I really loved as well as the dancing side and the connecting with people was sitting with people and listening to their stories and helping them feel good about themselves. That was one of the things I really loved about that industry. Especially working with people who had experienced trauma. I spent. Quite a few years working with people who had just come back from war. Soldiers who had really struggled with trauma and PTSD overseas and were having a hard time integrating back into society. And the only thing that they found was soothing for them was going to a strip club, buying a bottle of champagne, going in a VIP room and sitting and telling their stories and, I thought that there's more I can do here. And my pelvic pain as well was driving me out of the clubs and searching for something new. So those two things together were really what brought me into this work. I started tinkering around as a client myself, like receiving body work sessions, going to workshops, learning about embodied sexuality and doing these things for myself. But one of the things I noticed is as I started to take these methods into my current profession, which was working in strip clubs, in lap dancing rooms, that there was a transformation that was happening in the way that I could work with people and. That I could do a lot more than just to sit and listen to someone's story and show them my boobs. It strikes me, Lorraine, that. You were always interested in people's stories and resolving or supporting the resolution of, it sounds like a lot of your clients were military who had PTSD, and I'm guessing that for a lot of them it was, the touch, the contact, being seen, feeling seen, feeling heard, having their stories told, and the compassion, that space that you hold in your listening. That was medicine. Yeah, so it sounds like that was a factor which, you know, which we hold space for, all the time now and hearing people's stories and really understanding where the roots of them may come from, but also your own pelvic pain. Yeah it was a beautiful side effect of learning. This work was the resolution of my own pelvic pain. At the time when I started studying, it was chronic. It was really painful. And one of the really interesting things that I learned was that the pain that I felt when I was moving my pels, and sometimes it would be the pain that I felt just walking around after a really strenuous night of work. I could barely sit, I could barely walk. I couldn't keep still. And also the pain that I would feel. During certain sexual positions with certain sexual partners, and also the difficulty that I would have with digestion were all linked together. And I didn't understand this. I thought they were all separate issues. But through the work of Dr. Allen Heath that we, we both studied with Alan I learned that. These things are all connected. And they all feed into each other in this holistic way. And the way that we resolve this pain is by using all these different holistic methods to tease apart the scar tissue and work through the emotional wounding that is held inside these scar tissues as well in our bodies. Yeah. I feel like I cannot underscore that enough that it really is the unprocessed or unresolved emotional material that the body is really asking attention. It's almost like the scar tissue is holding that emotional material to ask the body owner to take a look at it. Help. If you can share what your process was. After meeting with Ellen, you had seen a number of different medical professionals who all kind of threw their arms up. Yeah. If you can speak to what was different about what you experienced with Ellen's approach and how did you go about addressing the resolution of that pain? Ellen just made it so accessible. She knew straight away what was happening for me and understood from her own lived experience that I, I believe that what was going on in my pelvis. In a way that, that the doctors they doctors do wonderful things. I don't want to discredit doctors. They do absolutely incredible things. But they couldn't do anything for me. They didn't know what was wrong. And there's a lot of ideas thrown around. Could it be ovarian cancer? Could it be a bacterial infection that we dunno how to treat? Or all these different things were thrown around and it was very frightening. And then to have. I did a workshop with Ellen Wright at the start of my training for sexological body work where she put her hands on me and she could feel this huge lump of scar tissue that was sitting behind my left ovary. And as she placed her hands on me, she was describing all the different layers of tissues that this. Scar was interacting with, it was connecting with my colon, my, my sig sigmoid colon. It was interacting with various ligaments and muscles and squeezing all these different tissues together. And then it just became really obvious to me that, of course, I'm gonna be constipated if there's a squeezing. So I'm gonna demonstrate on my sleeve here, if you have a squeezing. The bowel, then what is in the bowel is gonna struggle to move through the bowel. And if you have a tugging. Ovary, you have a tugging on the ligament of the ovary. You have a tugging on the uterus. So during menstruation, this is another thing I didn't even mention before. Very painful, heavy menstruation is also a factor of this scar tissue presentation as well as movement and during intercourse, those times when I felt very severe pain and the way that I could describe the pain is. I had this image in my head of someone playing snooker with my organs, and that's the feeling that I felt in my body. It was a radiating pain that would just bam, hit and go all the way down into my leg and right down to my foot on the left side. It was excruciating. And understanding how all these things were linked. From there, the first step for me was to change my diet and to try and balance out my beneficial bacteria in my guts. And how I did that was through an anti-inflammatory diet called gaps, which if you take it down to its main elements it's eating clean, it's trying to eat as much organic food as you can. It's trying to bring good bacteria. Into the diet such as sauerkraut and ka, which is a beautiful yogurt. That's. More liquid than regular yoga. And also re So Lorraine, before you continue, I just wanna let listeners know that you're starting to describe the four domains and starting with the biochemical aspect of the four domains. Because scar tissue will not only. Proliferate but not get resolved in an environment that is, that causes inflammation. And where the blood is not clean and when there, where there are toxins. The four domains, the biochemical, biomechanical emotions and scar tissue you started the gaps Diet is really addressing the biochemical aspect. Yeah it's a beautiful way of looking at it. The four domains. It ma it makes it easier to see the bigger picture. The other thing about the gap side is that we remove all of the things that are gonna feed. The bacteria that we don't want in there. We take out sugar, we take out complex carbohydrates and starches. So we starve out the bacteria that we don't want and we reintroduce and we feed the bacteria that we do want with lots of fresh vegetables that are not starchy, and plenty of bone broth, which is bones that are boiled with a little bit of apple cider vinegar and salt. And what the bone broth does is. It helps to repair the lining of the intestines. And that really helps with inflammation and it really helps with helping to stop the scar tissue from getting worse. Yes. And also to help with healthy bowel movements as well, because we, if it's in the pelvis, the scar tissue, we are gonna want the bowel movements to be as healthy as possible because they're already struggling to get through there. We don't want them really hard and difficult to pass. Sure. We are, we're also wanting a clean system so any toxins can be flushed out. And it we're also not only creating an environment that can that doesn't proliferate the inflammatory effects that affects scar tissue, but also making sure the blood is clean so that can further help break down the scar tissue. Yeah. And then moving into the scar tissue element of breaking down the scar tissue is really important. There's things that, that we can do at home that I encourage my clients to do at home, such as caster packs. Caster packs are incredible. And they're quite simple. So how they work is we. We get some organic hexane, free casta oil, and it's important that it's organic and hexane free. It's usually cold pressed. That's the kind of casta oil that I use. And we get some cotton flannel. It could be cotton or wool flannel. But the important thing about the flannel again, is that there's no toxins in that. So getting unbleached, undyed organic fabric, and we soak the castor oil into the fabric and we place it directly on the skin. Usually with a heat source, like a hot water bottle, and we can keep it on there from anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour after an hour. It's not gonna really do much after that, but anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour is really beneficial. And the best way to do that is every day for 21 days. But the thing to remember when doing that is that the scar tissue is going to be breaking down in the body and it might have a little bit of a, an effect on the body that's gonna tire us out. It might make us feel like we're a little bit run down for a few days as the body processes all that scar tissue. So it's good to do some detoxing things like going to a sauna or having an Epsom salts bath or doing a coffee ene if that's something that the people are comfortable with. I quite love the coffee ene animals. They're incredible for. Clearing up anything out of the system is just straight away. I'm feeling better. Yeah. The coffee enemas are really healthy for your liver, and to me it just feels like after I do one, I feel like I got a full night of sleep. They're just so invigorating. But more importantly, they really support the cleaning out the liver to make sure that the blood, it gets cleaner so that the blood that circulates in your system is really fresh and healthy. So castor oil packs it's got such a long history. It goes all the way back to how the Egyptians used to use the healing effects from the properties of the castor seed. They're really also wonderful for detoxifying your liver. For women who have fertility issues, you can clear out increase the blood flow and clear the lymph flow in your reproductive center for healthier periods. There, there's so many purposes for it, but resolving scar tissue, it's probably. Just one of the best and most effective ways to resolve scar tissue. So Lorraine, you did that, you did a 21 day process whilst you were on, on the gaps diet cleaning out any toxins from your gut. What else were you doing during that time? Remedial body work was amazing. So this is something that we can do on ourselves if we don't have a practitioner or we haven't got access to a practitioner. So this involves, I'll demonstrate on my arm with the caster oil. Usually just feeling in and finding anywhere that feels a little bit bruise or painful. Giving it a good massage, we can do a pinch and roll effect on the skin like that. And usually if there's a scar that's underneath the skin and you pinch and you roll, you can usually feel where the tendrils are underneath the skin. 'cause what happens with the scar is you've probably, as a listeners, have probably seen from scars that they've received on the outside of their skin from injuries that the scar doesn't just usually stop. It grows a little bit as you can see with some keloid scars it grows up and it grows out, and sometimes the presses can continue underneath the skin and these long fibers grow down, and that's what causes a lot of the pain. What Ellen found in me was these long tendrils that were moving all the way through my pelvis and connecting structures together, almost like tendons and ligaments. Shouldn't really have been connected together, but weren't in my genetics to be connected together. But they were connected through this scar tissue. So what this massage does is it starts to break down manually, mechanically the scar tissue that's inside the body. And this can be done internally as well, through the vagina and also through the anus, working inside, finding those. Bruising areas and working for a little while, not working until it's excruciatingly painful. We don't wanna go too hard or too fast on these areas, so maybe doing 20 minutes maximum of body work, or if it starts to feel a little bit achy, a little bit too achy. Stopping there not doing too much. It's better to do too little than too much to start with until we really get used to what our body is telling us. You're also speaking to what kind of emotions may get touched into that, that may have caused that scar tissue to begin with. So moving gradually. And at a pace that the body and the person feels comfortable moving towards. So you're now talking about the biomechanical aspect of the actual structure, what you're speaking to as far as the scar tissue and. It can prevent mobility of internal organs. It can get in the way of your, natural alignment of the posture of your organs within your body. So you were doing the biomechanical quadrant as well, and how were you working with your emotions? Can I just add with the biomechanical quadrant, rahi, the way that I was moving my body through the world as well, that needed to change in order for me to resolve. The issues that were coming up in my scar tissue presentation sleeping, for example, sleeping with one knee curled up and the other, like straight my left knee curled up in a very fetal position that was accentuating these connections and squeezing things together. Walking around with very big heels was shortening my spine and adding to that sort of. Tenderness ligamentous scar tissue in there because it was carrying the weight of those with the weight that I was moving my body through the world. Doing all these strenuous and acrobatic pole moves, which looked very impressive on stage. But looking inside my body didn't look very impressive at all. They were contributing to my pain presentation. So learning how to move my body in a way that wasn't aggravating. Accentuating these holding patterns. And you're moving to the emotional aspect. One of the most incredible things that I learned in my sexological body work training was consent and boundaries. Oh, wow. That was something that my body really enjoyed. It. It was hard to cognitively get my head around it outside of a workplace environment, during the work in the workplace, I was incredible. With my boundaries and consent. I had this whole list of things that was given to me by the different clubs that I worked in, and also by my own personal boundaries of what I was happy to do and not to do at work, and that outside of work, I was a yes person. I would just say yes because I didn't wanna hurt someone's feelings. I would say yes. Not knowing that. It was really a no inside my body. So learning how to be embodied and feel the yeses and the nos or the, I don't knows coming up was just amazing, and how those emotions affected my pelvic floor muscles. So if I was saying yes and my pelvic floor was saying no, especially during sex, then. I was coming up against a wall, a, an actual physical wall on my pelvic floor that was tightening up, and every time I would have sex when it was a no, and I was saying yes, my buddy would close up and. With my pelvic floor tissue hardening against the pressure of incoming penises fingers and whatnot. That's also causing an injury and inflammation that was adding to this scar tissue presentation. So working through not only the consent and boundaries learning. When it was a full, authentic yes, all the way through my body and noticing the difference and how different that felt engaging in sexual practices once it was a full embodied yes. And also learning how to. Know when my body was ready, even if I felt aroused psychologically and physically. Understanding when the tissues of my body were actually aroused and engorged and ready to engage in sexual practice was also incredible. And so it sounds like there, it sounds like before there may have been an awareness of what your body wanted, but now you are connecting your voice and really advocating for your own boundaries and consent, really advocating for your boundaries rather than just feeling what it is that your body wanted. Yeah, but knowing, yeah, knowing what my body wanted as well as being able to communicate and that, that takes a lot of work. I mean for a lot of us that had our boundaries breached as children, it can be a first time education, as adults, learning how to not only listen for what the body's authentic desire is, but giving voice to it. But it sounds like your body. Yeah, and its real intelligence, literally. Was creating a wall towards what it no longer wanted in the form of the scar tissue. Around your leftover. Yeah. Yeah. It no longer wanted the sexual contact. It no longer wanted the sugary foods. They no longer wanted the pole dancing thing, and it was telling me that those things were, they were okay then, but they're not okay now. And that's what my body was saying. Or maybe they weren't Okay then. And I just. And also in working through the emotional aspect of scar tissue. When those layers start to peel away and the body starts to soften and move, there's a whole process of somatic memory coming up. And then what do we do with these sematic memories that we have that might not be very pleasant? Taking them to a trauma therapist is the next step. And I believe that if we don't work through traumatic memories and our somatic memories that come up, then the scar tissue may still continue to proliferate even if we do all the other things. It's a holistic process of bringing all these elements together and. It's different for every person, depending on the way that they move through the world, what they're putting into their body in regards to food and sexual expression as well. Yes. But what you're speaking to I think is really profound, which is that as the scar tissue was dissolving, it was really releasing the emotions that. Yeah, that it was pent up and holding onto. And so to have that safe space whether it's a therapist, a trauma therapist, a practitioner a therapy group, some safe space to really feel into, feel safe enough to feel those emotions and really face them in order to have them gracefully integrate and release. Yeah. I feel like our clienteles are very mirrored in that, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you, most of your clients are penis owners and most of my clients are vulva owners, so I would love. For our audience to get a sense of what kinds of issues you mostly hold space for. Ah scar tissue is a big one and all genders. I work with scar tissue and pelvic pain. I also work a lot with erection and ejaculation issues like that is huge for me. So with erection challenges for your penis owner owning clients do you go through the four domains and what do you find that there are? Each client is really a snowflake and being so unique with their history and their, their physiology all of it. But I'm wondering for listeners who may also be experiencing erection challenges what have you found to be some thing, some things that kind of everyone should know? With ejaculation, like you say, everybody's different, but it generally tends to sit in the emotional quadrant and also the biomechanical. So the biomechanical being the habits that people have. So they're generally masturbating very quickly. So they get it over and done with before someone catches them. It's probably a pattern that's been there in their younger years. So they get in a habit of ejaculating quickly. And then when it comes to having partnered sex, they're ejaculating quickly 'cause that's what they've learned how to do. There's also an emotional aspect that comes into ejaculation. It could be that they're getting. Frightened when they're engaging in sexual activity because they know that they ejaculate quicker than what they want to. They get frightened and then they ejaculate quickly. Because there's a huge emotional component behind ejaculation as well. Working through the emotional issues and working through the MEChA, the biomechanical issues with ejaculation, it's practice. It's teaching someone that they can prolong their ejaculation and teaching them through methods such as breathing techniques, learning how to feel their body and what's happening inside their body, and edging. Edging is a great one. Getting right to the point just before ejaculation, and then learning how to slow it down. Yeah. It's the irony of what you're sharing is that the pressure that people that those who have these challenges are experiencing, it's like the pressure is upregulating their nervous systems, which is making the situation worse. Yeah. And it's taking them away from being with their sensations and being in their bodies. So it sounds like you're really holding the space to introduce them to practices, to downregulate their nervous system, to be with their body sensations and to expand the trains, the realms of pleasure before going over the edge. Yeah. With erection, it is a lot more complicated. And the term erectile dysfunction. A lot of people tend to think that is some kind of disease when really it is a symptom of many other things that could be going on. One of the first things that I encourage perspective clients to do if they have erection issues is to go and see their gp, because if it's a biochemical aspect, then. There's likely to be some condition behind that presentation that could be life threatening, such as diabetes, heart problems. The cardiovascular system is what is creating the erection. And if blood isn't getting into the penis for a medical reason, then that needs to be worked through with the gp, with dietician. That's not really my area of expertise, but if the doctor says, there's nothing wrong with you, it's all in your head. The other thing that I've encountered is because of this disease that you've had and recovered from, you're never gonna get an erection again. That one that, that is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've worked with people who have been told by doctors that they would never get an erection again, and in some cases that's true. If they take out the equipment that is. Bringing the erection but bringing the blood into the penis, then they won't be able to get an erection if they don't have the nerves and the VAs, the vascularization to bring the blood in there. But if it's for some other reason, such as scar tissue, then there is quite a lot that we can do in a body work session to help bring that erection back in. And the other thing I wanna mention as well is learning how to feel pleasure. Whether there's an erection present or not, and taking in the emotional quadrant of the presentation there. Working through that emotion sometimes can help bring the erection in, taking away the pressure to have an erection by learning new methods of feeling, pleasure, of being able to have, ejaculation in some cases that they didn't even think that they could have. Like it's possible to ejaculate with a penis that isn't erect. It's incredible. And once people put aside the pressure and learn these new methods, sometimes an erection just can magically appear once the emotional aspect is worked through. If your listeners can imagine. There is a tiger chasing them. They're not gonna be wanting an erection order digestion. They're gonna be wanting that blood in their limbs so they can run away and they can fight if they need to. But when there isn't this hypothetical tiger chasing them, the, the, you are never going get an erection tiger. Yeah. Then the erection sometimes just comes with tapping. That's been an excellent method to work through with some people. Those emotional issues of there might be a relationship problem, it might just be when their doctor told them that they would never get an erection again. That fear that they felt and tapping through those emotions while receiving touch at the same time as had some incredible effects in session. And moving to the scar tissue quadrant, sometimes when people have procedures on their prostate or they have procedures on their penis or anywhere in their pelvis, and they believe that this is gonna lead to them not being able to have an erection feeling into that scar tissue and doing some palpation on that scar tissue, whether it's intra anally, whether it's in the abdomen, can really help with bringing blood flow. Into the penis. I've seen some incredible erections that neither of us were expecting when we've been working through that scar tissue. Sometimes if there's been an operation prior, such as gallbladder removal or an appendectomy, and this scar tissue that is, is built up. In the abdominal area that is, is blocking that blood flow straight down from the heart through the iota and down into the pelvis. Working through scar tissue there can sometimes create an instantaneous erection and it's just it's just incredible to watch and the surprise on people's faces when they feel this erection coming through. It's just magical. So there's many important points to underscore in what you've shared. Certainly the blood flow is really primary, one of the first things you shared, Lorraine, is how debilitating medical advice, a, it's almost like a medical sentence. It sounds like some of your clients have received that prove to be untrue. And that, it is so psychological that it's shocking that a medical professional would not be sensitive to giving someone a sentence that they wouldn't have an erection when in fact they, they can. But yeah, the emotional I mean I guess it's the. Yeah, that is the emotional aspect. You spoke about the pressure and how the pressure can be like a tiger chasing them and what that does to the blood and the body. I've known of clients who where it is deeply emotional, where there's a situation like someone had an abusive father where their masculinity. Is symbolized in an erect penis and they, for the life of them, would never want to embody or be reminded of that kind of abusive power. And that power is represented in their erection. Yeah. I wanna ask you Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say how em embodied sexuality can spill out into other areas of people's lives as well. Like I've noticed that some of my clients, they get more confident when they're learning these techniques and learning embodiment. We can use it not only in sexuality, but we can use it in all areas of our lives to improve our relationships with our loved ones and our work colleagues. Yeah, you're speaking to really inviting people to take ownership of their sexuality, and that's gonna change everything. From what I've seen, it just, it can change everything, all aspects of one, one's life and yeah, I feel like the way we embody ourselves, it, it carries into really every aspect of our lives. Certainly inviting and feeling safe in embodying pleasure goodness, energy that can translate in our professional lives and our personal lives and in all sorts of ways. I want to ask you if there are any, practices, somatic practices that can nourish one's sexual embodiment that you would like to offer for our listeners today. Oh, thank you, Rahi. I would love to share a pelvic floor exercise that I teach them majority of my clients when they come to see me usually in the first session and. There, there are varying degrees to people's immediate proficiency with this. I invite your listeners to, to give it a try. Even if it feels a little difficult to do, to start with it will get easier the more that they practice it. Some people find it very easy straight away, but others struggle sometimes to, to feel the sensations if they're disconnected. So I invite everyone if you're able to do this, not if you're driving or operating other heavy machinery to close one hand on your heart and the other hand, if it's appropriate, cupping your genitals and taking a few breaths down from your heart. And then into your genitals with your inhale. And as you exhale, bringing that breath or imagining that breath moving up from your genitals and back to your heart. Ah, so down with your inhale and your heart to your genitals, and with your exhale back up from your genitals to your heart. A couple more breaths down with your inhale and then back up with your exhale. And now with this next inhale, I invite you to do a gentle push. So you might feel this underneath your hand as a little bit of a flexing of the muscles. And what I mean by a push is. The feeling that if you're defecating, if you're having a poo and you're pushing out, it's a downward motion onto your hand. So as you breathe in, gently pushing down, and then as you exhale, just relaxing those muscles, breathing in. Pushing down, down. I have a gentle push. You might not even be able to feel it, but just imagining a gentle push and relaxing as you breathe out. Ah, now I invite you to. Bring a clench. So this is a squeezing of the pelvic muscles. What you would do if you were stopping yourself, having a wee mid flow. So you're gonna relax as you breathe in and then clench. As you exhale. You might be able to feel it underneath your hand, breathing in and relaxing. And clenching as you exhale. Ah, a couple more breaths. Breathing in, relaxing, and then clenching as you exhale. Breathing in, relaxing. I'm clenching as you exhale. Now, I invite you to bring both of these actions together so as we breathe in, we are going gently push down and as we exhale, we are gonna gently clench ah, to breathing in, tearing down. Breathing out clenching. I need do two more. Breathing in. Bearing down. Breathing out clenching. Ah, one more. Breathing in, bearing down. And breathing out, clenching gently, bringing your focus back into the room, back to the podcast. So that was a short snippet. I would normally spend a whole session of an hour going through those processes very slowly with people. But trying to incorporate something like that into lifestyle can be really wonderful for connecting with the pel and. When there's tension, is it a clench, is it a push or is it relaxed? And learning to find that midpoint of relaxation is key. And practicing the up and down. So with the down, it's important to remember not to push completely down as far as you can just to do it to about 50 or 60% of what you. And to remember to have those relaxation pauses when we do the up and the down as well, to make sure that we fit in some of that relaxation. 'cause when I first started learning how to do this I got chronically stuck in either the clench or the push and I couldn't remember how to relax my pelvic floor. So it's important to, to have those pauses too. For listeners who might be in Australia who are looking for you, or a sexological body worker, how can they find you or a sex pod where that's doing practices near them? So my website is lorraine p.com au. And they can contact me through my website. They can either book in a session directly there, or they can send me a message through my website to ask any questions that they need to at the moment, depending on when this goes to air and when people are listening to this podcast I'm not accepting new clients for body work due to the lockdown. But I'm doing Zoom sessions where I can coach people online anywhere in the world if they wanted to work with me. Awesome. Great, Lorraine, thanks so much for your time today. Thank you. How was it? To engage your pelvic floor muscles on the in breath and the out breath if you bring your attention. To your pelvic floor. Now, do you notice a different sense of awareness within the layers of muscles, tissues, and sensations? Can you explore massaging these subtle layers simply with your breath and muscle control? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pain, Scar Tissue & Recovery --- ### [Painful Sex After Birth: Healing Scar Tissue & Restoring Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/painful-sex-postpartum-scar-tissue/) **Published:** February 15, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Dr. Ellen Heed’s pioneering research and work in scar tissue remediation and management has revealed a largely unaddressed epidemic of painful sex postpartum due to undiagnosed scar tissue obstructing proper lubrication, engorgement, and organ mobility in the pelvis. She explains the importance of accurate assessment via The Four Domains of Health - biochemistry, biomechanics, emotions, and scar tissue - and the role Somatic Recall can play in resolving emotions still held in the scar itself. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Painful Sex After Birth: Healing Scar Tissue & Restoring Pleasure **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore painful sex after birth and how scar tissue, trauma, and nervous system responses impact sensation and intimacy with Ellen Heed, creator of STREAM – Scar Tissue Remediation and Management. You’ll learn how the body heals and how somatic approaches can restore comfort and pleasure. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun") [EllenHeed.com](https://ellenheed.com/) STREAM: [ScarTissueRemediation.com/copy-of-stream-2-0](https://www.scartissueremediation.com/copy-of-stream-2-0) *Today’s Guest:* Ellen Heed, CSB, Ph.D., is a somatic educator providing a deep dive into diverse human experience, lived in-body. Her fascination with embodiment comes from a wealth of experience. She danced from three to thirty, then dove headlong into the practices of yoga, bodywork, and craniosacral therapy while teaching anatomy, physiology, and hands-on bodywork to a global audience. After teaching live for thousands of somatic practitioners, Ellen now offers her innovative, inclusive curriculum to online learners. A Certified Sexological Bodyworker, Ellen treats scars from genito-pelvic injuries. Her STREAM Program covers holistic scar remediation, self-care, and assessment for professionals and body-aware individuals. ## What You’ll Learn About Painful Sex, Scar Tissue & Postpartum Healing $ “Somatic recall – when the body remembered something that the mind did not… and in that remembering, the scar tissue reconfigured in real time…” $ How Ellen’s experiences at the Santa Monica Shiatsu Clinic influenced her understanding of psyche and soma – and an integrative approach involving touch, breath and emotions for remediating scar tissue and resolving pelvic pain. $ How painful sex, postpartum, due to scar tissue – is still a largely unaddressed epidemic. $ How the Four Domains of Health : Biochemistry, Biomechanics, Emotions, and Scar Tissue, are inseparable dynamics and necessary for accurate assessment. $ How the healing properties and various applications of Castor Oil can support our pelvic health. $ How allowing the body’s story to unfold requires a neutral presence without “trying to do anything” – in order for the scar to be heard. $ How trauma in the body of the Mother can be taken on and embodied by the fetus in this case study of transgenerational trauma. $ How to detoxify the body, re-sensitize intra-pelvic tissues and increase lymphatic drainage from the effects of intra-pelvic radiation. ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps. –** Genital Healing, Pleasure & Sexual Function [How pelvic pain and scar tissue can resolve and transform into pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [How pleasure is medicine for pelvic restoration ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [Why hormonal balance and pelvic health are essenital for healthy sexuality](https://rahichun.com/podcast/vaginal-steaming-hormones-healing/) [How genital de-armoring and pelvic healing can transform intimate relating ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) ## Go Deeper Into This Work The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Ellen Heed as we explore her pioneering work in scar tissue remediation, and in particular, the role scar tissue plays in painful sex postpartum. What roles do the four domains of health and somatic recall play in the successful resolution of scar tissue from the body? Ellen also shares a fascinating case study of resolving transgenerational trauma from the pelvis. I am really happy and thrilled and honored to welcome Dr. Ellen. He to the podcast today. There's so many things I can share about Ellen's work. It's really pioneering in the fields of scar tissue remediation and management as well as somatic psychology. I know Ellen I was actually first introduced to Ellen during my sexological body worker training where she was one of the teachers in scar tissue remediation. And then I did a deeper dive in the stream training, that's her stream, scar tissue remediation management training, and, ellen's path is really been so diverse. She teaches internationally in the fields of anatomy, craniosacral therapy, body work, sexological body work certainly scar tissue remediation. She's also a very sought after holistic lifestyle consultant and hands-on practitioner here in Los Angeles. And I am so thrilled to have you here, Ellen, and very excited for our listeners. It's good to be here. Rhi. Thanks so much for asking me. I love opportunities to talk about this work. 'cause I think it, it needs to be articulated and thank you for doing so. Wonderful. There's so much to get into, but I wanna start by letting our listeners know a little bit about your journey as a practitioner, as a teacher really, and the work that you do. And, I was really curious how your path led you to the Santa Monica Shiatsu Clinic and your work with Dr. Manish. Medici a friend recommended I go for a shiatsu treatment at the Shiatsu School. Not so much for the treatment itself, but in order to be read be assessed by the man who was supervising the Shiatsu clinic. And because the students who were at the school would work at the clinic and he was supervising to make sure they were. If they had questions about how to work with particular client, he was there for them to ask their questions too. And I went, when he was on duty as the supervisor and I was receiving my treatment, just little thumbs and along my spine and down my arms and shoulders and, it was okay. And then this man walks in and says, stick out your arm. And I stuck out my arm and he started pushing points. He was pushing much harder than the shiatsu therapist. He said, you feel any heat? When I press into that point? I'm like, yeah, I feel heat. I feel it all the way up my arm and into my torso. What is that? He said that's interesting. Then he said, I'm gonna make you stoned. And I'm like really? You're gonna make me stoned? Do you know who you're talking to? I've taken more drugs than most people. Larger quantities than most people. So when you say, you're gonna make me stoned, I don't think so. And he peeled the shoulder blade off my back with his thumb, and I swore I just smoked a bowl of the finest opium being a former opium addict, I can speak to the finest opium. And I was like, holy shit, how did you do that? What is that? What just happened there? And he said, oh, you're just moving q That's all that's happening. And I'm like, what the heck is this guy talking about? And as I walked out of the appointment, he handed me his card. He said, I'd like to work with you because you can move a lot of chi in your body. And to be fair, I just finished a. A nine week yoga teacher training with Anna Forest, where I had no coffee, no sugar, no alcohol, no drugs, no anything. And I had been sweating. It's in the middle of the summer, and I was sweating gallons. I'd lost 15 pounds in nine weeks because of just this, the heat and the sweat and the working out. So I was in a very cleansed condition when this happened. So I think I felt more than I might have, had I been in the midst of my usual habits around alcohol, caffeine, sugar, eating too much. Sleeping too much lethargic prior to that. So anyway, what happened was, I got very interested in this phenomenon. I was like, how do you make, how do you give somebody a borderline? Drug induced experience in their body without the drug. If you can do this, if anyone could do this with their hands, that's really interesting. I had no idea that was possible. So I started to work with Dr. Medici getting body work once every six or eight weeks for about a year, and it radically changed my life radically. The things that I was able to understand about the mind body, emotional body connection were so much more powerful than anything I'd done in talk therapy and so much more connected psyche and soma than what was coming up even in the depths of forest yoga. And I was a devoted practitioner. I would go to class six days a week and I was having micro realizations on the map, but I would have macro realizations on the table, and that's when I thought something is different when we're involving touch and breath and. Working with emotions that I haven't understood was possible in the human experience. And pretty soon I was a student at the Shiatsu school. And then soon after that I became a teacher at the Shiatsu school. 'cause Dr. Medici realized I was a quick study and he also saw an opportunity to offload teaching. Beginning anatomy because I, after having done it now for 20 years, beginner's anatomy, I'd be happy to offload it too at some point. So I basically kept handing me curriculum to teach. First it was anatomy and then it was physiology, and then it was pathology, and then I was, then I had, by that time, studied cranial sacral. Then I began to teach cranial sacral, and I was teaching pain and orthopedic evaluation, and I just dove headlong into wow. Learning everything I could learn about the body pathology and integration, the emotional body, the physical body, the biochemical body, even the existential body. Really understanding how the interplay from an east west perspective caused disease and also created opportunities for healing. Dr. Medici eventually suggested that I specialize and focus in the pelvic floor, particularly scar tissue remediation in the pelvic floor, being female identified. He thought that people would be more comfortable working with a woman in that capacity, especially other women who'd had birth trauma. And he saw birth trauma as trauma giving birth. In other words, their pelvic floor had been injured in the process of giving birth. Said, nobody sees this as a problem. Nobody treats this as a problem, and it's a big problem, and here's a niche and you can fill it. You should do this. So I took his advice and I began to learn and study and eventually undertook, writing a doctoral dissertation about it because I realized there was a, so to speak, a hole to be filled in the informational world that wasn't being addressed, especially an integrative approach to pelvic floor pain as related to birth birth injury. Yeah, I was really fascinated. And by the way, to our listeners Dr. He's dissertation is being made generously available on her website, ellen heid.com, where you can, really go through 600 pages if you'd like, but there's so rich in case studies in really really the four domains. I love that the the. If efficacy of the four domains, it gets really clear. And also, understanding what a kind of an epidemic it is and unaddressed in our society unsupported in research and really the practitioners that women post birth who have sexual pain go to are unequipped and unknowledgeable about the role scar tissue plays in their pelvic pain. They're un unschooled about arousal, so they can't possibly know, since they're not trained to understand what healthy pelvic function actually is, especially in this sexual arena for women. There is no awareness of what scar tissue could do to inhibit that healthy sexual function. So if you're not trained in the reality of engorgement and lubrication and all of the, or recal tissue beds that get affected by scar tissue as a result of a episiotomy, even c-section, certainly tearing and and prolapse and rectocele, cystocele, those are all the different kinds of prolapses that can happen all of which will affect sexual function. But if you're not schooled in sexual function and you're only schooled in pathology, and you're busy creating surgical procedures to address pathology, and we know that's necessary, if you have. Cervical cancer, you would want somebody who knows how to address that surgically for sure, but in the process of that surgery, their follow on effects from the scar that could inhibit sexual function and without remediation of the scar sexual function can be forever lost, and it need not be because scar tissue can be remediated. The notion of remediation of scar tissue. From a holistic perspective. In other words, not cutting out the scar, which is what often happens. People say this scar tissue is a problem. Let's just remove it surgically. What does that do? That produces more scar tissue, right? A holistic remediation with hands-on work. This was a new idea, and this is what Dr. Medici was teaching us to do as shiatsu therapists at the school. He was saying, when you find a scar in someone's body, this is how you work with it. You apply castor oil, you cross fiber the tissue, you make it more resilient, more flexible. You increase fluid flow, increase blood delivery to the area around the scar, increase lymphatic drainage from the area around the scar, so the scar then can have more normal physiologic behavior instead of less and less normal physiologic behavior. Because scar tissue is dynamic. It doesn't just Once you're healed, the scar is there. No, the scar proliferates and it continues to proliferate. Throughout the life of the body, if inflammation is what's if there's a strong inflammatory milieu under the skin. There's a couple of things I'd like to tease out in what you just shared, Ellen. First how, you know well-meaning professional practitioners may be, but just how ill-equipped and not part of the training to address scar tissue and really the body in a holistic way as the four domains really does. One of my best friends is an O-B-G-Y-N, and she says, Rahi, they don't teach us about pleasure, they just teach us how to deliver babies and perform hysterectomies. Yeah. Yes. And this is not to, as you shared earlier, medical professionals go through a lot of training and very necessary training to address the issues that they do. But it feels like our society is really woefully. Ill-equipped to address the issue of scar tissue for pelvic pain post-birth. And understanding how holistic an approach is necessary to resolve that scar tissue. And that's precisely what your dissertation addresses. Yes. I wrote it was very difficult. I looked at a lot of different programs when I was looking to go for a graduate degree and I couldn't find anything that was as big as what I wanted to write about in terms of integration, biochemistry, biomechanics, emotions, and scars. That's not how things work in education. Things are pigeonholed and those pigeonholes have impermeable barriers in a lot of cases. So you don't get the kind, you don't see the influence, even though we all see it. It's common sense. If you're dealing with a biochemical issue, it can affect your whole body and the health of the whole body. If you were, allergic to dairy and didn't know it and had a lot of stomach issues and were then feeling, pain every time you ate dairy, for instance, and feeling bad because of the pain, it could affect your emotional body. It could affect how your emotions are if you hurt all the time. This is true for babies who have colic, for instance. They're squalling a lot and quite distressed because they hurt, and so you have to figure out, oh, it's the food that they're eating that they're reacting to. If we change the food, they'll feel better, but this goes on at a very much more subtle level. And we also have ergonomics in the way we use our bodies and how the kind of clothing that we wear if we walk around in high heels all day long is part of necessary uniform for work that's gonna, and that creates back pain. Yet you have to wear the shoes because that's part of your uniform and you're have back pain all the time. Then you're not gonna be in a great mood because there's an element of powerlessness about what you have to do to keep your job. And it's tied into survival. And all I'm saying is that these are inseparable elements. They are the fundamental elements of health. And this is how we were educated at the Shiatsu School, and I so appreciate you starting leading with that because we learned a holistic bottle of health that I is even more holistic than most holistic coaching programs, medical programs, because it includes scar tissue. That's one of the fundamental four irreducible elements of health. You can't be healthy if your scars are unhealthy. If your scars are unhealthy, that means they are continuing to proliferate and continuing to shut down the plumbing of all the tissue around the scar, meaning blood delivery gets interrupted and lymphatic drainage gets interrupted, and that's what every cell in your body needs is adequate blood delivery and adequate lymphatic drainage because groceries in and take out the trash, it's that simple. You can't, if the blood can't deliver the g, deliver the groceries and the lymph can't take out the trash. What you end up with is a toxic mess inside the cell. So Shiatsu is about increasing circulation and about increasing lymphatic drainage. You're using hands and manual therapy to do you can also do that using hands. With a scar, you physically manipulate the scar, and when you add castor oil to that physical manipulation, the scar can change more quickly because the castor oil increases the lymphatic drainage from the scar. Okay. A couple of things to tease out there too. Not only, I feel like the presence of scar tissue is almost a kind of red flag that there are disruptions in the other areas as well. The presence of scar tissue is like, Hey, look at my biochemistry, look at my emotions, look at my biomechanics. Because they all, they are all interconnected. And that's, I gotta say, I, it's one of the things I appreciated most about the stream training is how, yeah. I don't know how else to say it, but it just covered all the bases of what can go wrong possibly, and how to remedy what's out of alignment in order to address the holistic health of the person. Oftentimes the the solutions are very common. Sensical, in order to increase a improve alignment will improve blood delivery and lymphatic drainage. Using a, an external product like castor oil or maybe DMSO or some other lubricant to increase the amount of malleability you can get in a tissue. That's going to increase blood delivery and lymphatic drainage. If emotions are creating a posture and the posture's creating tension and that tension's going to, it will impact. Ultimately the fossil body and the fossil body can get stiff, and that stiffening is going to affect blood delivery and lymphatic drainage. And I don't mean to be reductionist about it, but really that's the physiologic basis of disease is poor plumbing. And so if you could increase the basic elements, the physical elements for the health of all tissue, then you can increase the health of the whole body. Yes. So you've mentioned castor oil twice now, and I feel like it's a player in this in this movie that deserves its own spotlight for a moment. The castor oil and the amazing healing properties of the castor seed and how, how well scar tissue responds to the palpation with castor oil. Yeah. I'm wondering, like I know the history of castor oil and its healing benefits go all the way back to the Egyptian time. I'm, I'd love to hear, Ellen, some of your initial experiences and like how you came to experience the healing benefits of castor oil in your work with your clients. We were taught to use it in shiatsu school. We were, we learned how to use a castor oil pack, particularly on the abdomen. We did a lot of work. We did not just, we did not only learn shiatsu, we also learned anma, A NMA anma massage, which is abdominal massage. And if you're working in the abdominal area, you'll come across abdominal adhesions and we will learn to palpate. Abdominal adhesions and feel when somebody had a belly that felt like it wasn't moving properly. We did a lot of sweeping hands back and forth and, making a, carving out a diamond between the ribs and inside the bones of the pelvis, and then pushing the intestines and pulling them, like needing a loaf of bread back and forth. That movement, you could tell very quickly what was moving easily and what wasn't moving easily. If we found something that wasn't moving easily, we'd suggest that our client would do a castor oil pack before they came for their next appointment in order to soften the tissue because the warmth would help and the castor oil itself would help if it were done properly. So when I started to work in the pelvic floor, I was fortunate at that time to have a pharmacologist in my practice who was my client, and he was old school. He was in his seventies at that time. And and he also collected remedies in his head. As a hobby. He remembered how people used to use castor oil in the old days. And I said, look, do you think you could use castor oil on the mucosal membrane of the vulva? Would that be dangerous? He said, oh, no, it would be fine. Mucosal membranes, love castor oil, and then he cautioned me to make sure you know where your local emergency room is, because there'll be that one person in a hundred thousand who goes anaphylactic to castor oil, and I have yet to meet that person, thousands of clients later. Nobody has had an anaphylactic reaction to castor oil. It doesn't mean it's going, not going to happen, but in general, you can test castor oil on a mucosal membrane easily enough. You could put a little inside your nose, you could put a little side inside your cheek, and if there's no stinging, burning, itching, or other adverse reaction, it's probably safe to use. Inside the vulva, the anus, or inside the foreskin on a penis. And so now I've taught hundreds of students all over the world about castor oil to be used on the genitals. And I have yet to hear of any adverse reactions unless it's used too frequently. Too frequently could be every day. And I recommend using castor oil no more frequently than every second or third day. So one doesn't sensitize to it. So I wanna focus a little bit because, the dissertation, which is really fantastic. And again, it's so generous. You're making it available on your website for people to look at because it focuses on post birth sexual pain. As a result of scar tissue, I'd love to give. You mentioned earlier some of the, if there's any incision, certainly c-section episiotomies, vaginal tears, there's gonna be a scar tissue as a result. I'd love to, I'd love to explore some of the other ways scar tissue can form because Oh, great. It's not just from an incision or a cut. It can form from a variety of ways that people aren't aware of that affect their pelvic bowls. Yes. It can form spontaneously as a result of chronic holding, muscular holding. For instance, I was working with a young woman a few weeks ago who came in because she had painful intercourse and she said she'd been told she had vulva denia. Vulva is a very nonspecific and now outdated term. It's not used anymore. Now it's called penetrated pelvic, sexual dis. It's I forget, it's a long five letter acronym. All pelvic pain syndromes that have to do with penetration have been collapsed into a single definition in the latest version of the DSM five. So now it used to be vulva, vaginismus, vestibular vestibulitis, vulva, vestibulitis, and on many kinds of descriptors for pain in the pelvic floor. Now it's all one category with the exception of lichen sclerosis, which is still a scar producing inflammatory process that can happen as a part of autoimmunity. That's an autoimmune condition that creates literal scarification of the pelvic floor and takes quite some time to. To fix, but it is fixable. But so there's some, lichen sclerosis is an example of spontaneous scarification happening as a result of a chronic inflammatory condition of the mucosa of the vulva. But then this woman who came in, she starts telling me I was hospitalized once for constipation. I'm like, ah, there's something. So when I'm examining her pelvic floor, I'm got my fingers in her vagina, and it does not hurt. There's no pain with penetration. I've got a lot of lubrication in castor oil, and she's saying, does it hurt when I do this? She's no, it doesn't hurt. Does it hurt when I pull my fingers out? Yes, it hurts. But I can feel the bottom lip of her vagina is so congested because her anal sphincter is so tight. Because of the constipation that goes back, it's idiopathic constipation that's, I would call it psychogenic constipation. That has been with her whole life that she's even been hospitalized for. And I'm like, you need to make friends with your poop. You've gotta change your relationship with your anal sphincter so it can relax because the pain you're having as a result of referred tension from your anal sphincter doesn't really have anything to do with your vagina. There's no pathology here. It has to do, the only reason it hurts when I pull my finger out, she was complaining. Doesn't hurt when they go in. It hurts when they pull out is because of that gripping. You're gripping your whole pelvic floor tight as a result of this. Psychogenic. Habit around poop and the tension that's held there. So that's an example, but that would certainly create congestion, lack of drainage, potentially some scarification in the connective tissue that invests all muscle, including the smooth muscle of the anal sphincters. Yeah. So there is a wide variety of ways that scar tissue can form. Certainly when people are penetrated without consent when they're penetrated, when the body isn't ready or wanting it. Emotional congestion from their sexuality. They're just such a wide variety. And I wanna shift now if I may, Ellen because in your dissertation you shared how there were really dramatic responses, I think with your research partner with Somatic Recall. And I'd love to know, your journey or Yeah. Your journey as a practitioner in recognizing the role that somatic, recall, the unintegrated emotions that are held in the scar tissue itself. Yeah. Some of your experiences and recognizing how important in central that role is to relieving the scar tissue. For all of the work we did around understanding the reality of the emotional body in shiatsu school, we didn't ever, I had never had, or was in no way prepared to accept that scar tissue itself could contain emotion. And I wasn't surprised when it happened. Terribly surprised. But the effects of what happened to the scar when the emotion was released were jaw dropping. So what happened was I was working with a effects fellow sexological body worker before I even. Before I even real, this was before I even knew scar tissue in the pelvic floor was a thing. She came to me, this was back in 2009. I had done a little bit of scar tissue work when people had a episiotomies or they'd had C-sections, but I hadn't worked on a birth tear before. She was the first person to come in saying she had a second degree terror during her birth experience, but it was three months later and I was surprised to see that her whole vulva was disfigured. Still three months postpartum. It was still bruised black and blue, and instead of an up and down inus or inus looked like it was sideways because of the disfigurement and the amount of tension she was holding in the muscles around her vulva. As a result of this, she had a very quick and forceful expulsion of her baby, 'cause the cord was wrapped around. Her son's neck. And the midwife said, you push now. And she did. She had very strong pelvic floor muscles. She pushed hard and there was a terror. And then she had this problem. She said, I can't believe how much pain I'm in. It's three months. What gives, why does it hurt? Nobody told me it would hurt this badly. And so we did a little bit of massage with castor oil and within that session, the single session, her vulva confirmation returned to normal. The bruising went away in real time and the disfigurement of her introitus went away in real time. And she was, she looked normal. And then she went home and she was really happy about that. And she said, I'm going use castor oil every single day. And she massaged it. And that's how we learned about sensitization to castor oil. She got, I see. Itchy and burning a little too much. And I'm like, okay. Every other day, let's see if that worked. But that did work. And she came back and she, for the next session. And she said things are still pinchy. They still hurt a little bit. So then I did, so I had just done external vulva work in our first session. In the next session we did internal vulva work and I massage castor oil inside and I could literally feel beads of scar tissue, not beads. They were the size of blueberries, big lumps of scar in the floor of her vagina. Wow. And as I massaged, these lumps disappeared. And she had memories as the lung disappeared, as the lump disappeared, she would, go into this kind of frozen place and her eyes would get big and maybe one tear would come out. And she said, I'm just remembering that moment. And my birth when I thought I was gonna split in half. And I felt so powerless about the pain. I didn't, it had been an orga, an orgasmic birth in her narrative of it. That's what she remembered. But her body remembered, oh, I was frightened. Oh, it hurt. And she over, over overrided that, overridden that Yes. The memory of a real pain with the need for her experience to have been orgasmic. And she wanted to remember the good part of it. Of course there was the big oxytocin rush and she fell in love with her baby and everything was so wonderful once the baby was born. But the body remembered like, ah, that moment of tearing, it was like, ah, what's happening here? And so she had, that was the mo that was somatic recall when the body remembered something that the mind did not remember. And in that remembering the scar tissue reconfigured in real time in, in great immediacy do you feel those blueberry lumps? Yes. I feel those blueberry lumps, they hurt, they feel they're burning. And then gone, gone. And she's what just happened? I was like, I don't know. What was that? I have no idea. And then she came again. For a third session, she brought a film crew because she's that kind of person so we were being filmed in real time as I found yet another blueberry sized lump. I was working on it and massaging it, and it happened again, one tear, no more scar tissue. And then she said, you know what? We've gotta go into business. This is really big news. Let's take, let's make an e-course about scar tissue remediation, which we proceeded to do. But this is back in 2009. And people didn't want to use mothers and sexuality in the same sentence in 2009. Much leather, much less mother sexuality scars in their remediation. We're just ahead of our time. Yeah. Ellen, I think this speaks to what you share in your dissertation about the incredible, a posity and lack of research around scar tissue adhesions. Within obstetrics, however there's a lot of research, medical support around scar tissue and adhesions that's non obstetrics. Yes. Tons of research about abdominal adhesions, but nobody's looking about looking for adhesions in the pelvic floor. Nobody thinks that they're, people don't see connective tissue adhesions happen in connective tissue. They're made of connective tissue. They've studied adhesions extensively in the abdomen because of course they can cause bowel obstruction, which is quite deadly in elderly people. So yes, there's research to study that, but nobody has studied adhesions in the pelvic floor as it might interfere with sexual function. IE engorgement and lubrication because we don't study engorgement and lubrication in people with vulvas. It's just not even part of education. So nobody's looking for the adhesions that would I interfere with a physical function. It took a sexologist to go in and ask the questions about wait a minute, if adhesions really screw up function in digestion, wouldn't they therefore screw up function in engorgement and lubrication in the pelvic floor? And nobody's gonna answer that question 'cause nobody's asked it before. So I had to ask it. And to answer it. My findings with my ha, with my own hands is that yes, you can feel the adhesion, you can feel its dissolution. Usually when the adhesion, devolves dissolves, so does the pain from the, from penetration. Yes. I think I answered my own question, yeah. Yeah. It just makes me wonder because you shared I think you shared that all of the women you worked with as case studies in your dissertation, did not suspect scar tissue to be the culprit in their sexual pain. So it just speaks to how uninformed as a society we are and how many women post birth after, bringing life to our planet, are walking around with pain that they've just either accepted they've gone to different medical professionals. No one knows. No one has I diagnosed it or assessed it properly. No, they're told there's no reason remedies for your pain. I feel like you're good to go. You have painful sex. Now it's in your head. Yeah. So I love what you're speaking to. The example of the the client who brought in the film crew, it really speaks to how the emotions that she had overridden. She had this really, I idyllic she wanted an idyllic image and memory of her birth, which is wonderful, but that the body does feel everything and until it integrates and really has the space to feel those emotions fully, it will be held and stored in the body. And specifically during birth, certainly around scar tissue in the pelvis, specifically stored in the scar itself. Yeah. That, who thinks about emotions of the moment when the injury occurred hanging out in a scar? But I can tell you if you touch a wound, even a healed wound and a resolved wound, sometimes emotions will come up. Whether it's intra vulva, intra anal, or intraabdominal or just talking. We put your hands where somebody's broken their leg and you just hold them there and abide, be with a tissue in a nonjudgmental way. Sometimes the emotions that haven't gotten processed from that trauma will will present themselves. Yeah. It's that unconditional presence, isn't it, with no agenda, but just to be with that part of the body and touch into that memory. The story. The story, yes. Allow the body's story to unfold, but it takes very neutral presence for that to occur. By neutral, I don't mean I don't care. What I do mean is I'm not trying to add any information to the system. I'm holding the tissue without judgment. Without energy. Really just presence. Not trying to do anything. And I think this is a difference again, maybe between the application of physical therapy and the application of what I'm doing, which I call scar tissue remediation. The scar has to be heard. Yes. And that takes time. You have to give, you have to take time to listen without adding any information into the scar itself, which means touching bear attention and touching. That's it. No trying to fix or doing, people get so busy wanting to fix something and they never actually hear the problem. It's it too busy trying to fix it. Sure, sure is how can you listen to the story that is yearning to be told if you have your own agenda or your own story imposed over it. I, I wanna, I wanna come to the the experience that you had, that experie you shared in your writing, because it di it also involved an unconditional presence at a client's operator internus muscle that unwound trauma that had been held, transgenerationally. Yes. It's just so amazing. I would love for you to share that experience. I've read it, but I it's our listeners haven't read it. Sure. And if you can share that, it just really opens up entire new realms of what's possible to heal. It blew me away. I'd never suspected that a body could hold. Trauma that didn't occur to that body, but it occurred to somebody upstream from that body. So the story is a woman came to me who had painful penetration, and she lay on the table. Her legs were over my legs and I could feel the amount of tension in her pelvis. And we talked about that. She said, yes, I've always had a very tight pelvis. But this person's very athletic. She works out, she's fairly flexible. There's no reason for the amount of tension I was feeling in her pelvis. And I asked her about that. I said, can you relax your legs over my legs so I could feel the weight of your legs? And she couldn't. And so when I was inside her vagina, her opt traitor muscles, those are muscles that you can feel, they're about a half inch inside the introitus, right? The entrance to the vagina. And if you press straight sideways into the vaginal walls, you'll encounter the optor internist muscles. These muscles were so overdeveloped that they felt like tight rubbery rings of calamari intruding from the sidewalls of the vagina into the vaginal space. And I'm like that's why penetration hurts is because the introitus is occluded by theor muscles themselves. They're actually pushing too far in and reducing the space for penetration. Of course that would hurt, but why are those ob traitor muscles so tight? That was the question I was asking myself. 'cause it didn't make sense because there was no history of molestation, there was no history of extreme shaming around sexuality except for the constant beat of the cultural drum about being raised Catholic in a Catholic country, not the us. And but she seemed at ease with it. And it didn't seem like that was really the, it wasn't that it wasn't ambient cultural trauma. It wasn't complex. It wasn't complex trauma and it wasn't specific trauma. It was something else. And I was just like, oh, what is this? What is this? And so as she got off the table, she said, I don't know why I have to tell you this. And that's when I, all my ears prick up. I don't know why I have to tell you this, but when my mother had me she had to hold her legs together until the obstetrician got there because she was in a Catholic hospital. The nuns couldn't catch the baby. She was in high labor. The guy had gone home for the evening and they had to wait for him to come back. So she had to hold the baby in 'cause nobody could catch the baby. And so she did this. And I'm like, oh my God. That's it. Your ator have learned that tension pattern. When you were born, you were wanting to come out, you couldn't get past the ator, and somehow that went into your body. And I'm just like, how in the world does this happen? I can't even imagine what go, how does this guard disappear instantly? In a moment of somatic recall, how in a moment of a mother's stress does that stress go into the body specifically into the same part of the body of the infant that's being born? Whoa. What is that? So she worked with this. She left the session. I got a letter from her seven weeks later. This particular person is a rebirth. Her does a lot of work with breath work, and she had taken a breath journey and she said she could feel, and she also couldn't tolerate hearing the word birth around her. If anyone talked about birth, she'd get fainted. She would pass out, she'd even lose consciousness. She actually had to take a. A class in Hypnobirthing. Yeah. To desensitize herself to the word birth and the idea that when people had babies, she could listen to it without losing consciousness. So she had done that work and she thought she was done with her birth work, but she didn't, never understood why she got so distressed or or fake. Literally vagal shutdown is what was officially having a vasovagal response to just the word of giving birth. That's a big hint that there's something happened around birth, but not birth that she had. She'd never had children. It was her birth. She had an experience in a breathing journey that she took of giving birth energetically. She could feel something moving out of her and when she, after that, she's never had painful sex again. Her body let go of it. She completed the thing her mother needed to complete, but couldn't. Exactly. That's what I got from reading your writing, Ellen, is that she com completed that interruption? Yes. And allowed the energetic expression of what organically wanted to happen within her mother's body. She was able to release that and complete that within her own body for her mother. And she said her mother underplays how traumatic that birthing experience was. She was one of a number of children and the rest of the births were without incident. And she just likes to tell the story again, the cognitive story, the cognitive story her mother tells is, oh, it was no big deal. But her father says, yes, it was, don't you remember? We had to wait for the doctor to come back, and it was so difficult and you had to keep that baby inside of you against your pushing, and that was not easy. And so well, yeah. And then I'm wondering what is the fetus going through when it's organic impulse is to push out. And it's being forced. To kept in, kept inside. And as I was reading that, I wondered, the loss of consciousness that your client was experiencing every time there's a mention of birth or pregnancy. Is that a somatic memory of her, like possibly losing consciousness inside the womb when all of her energy is wanting to come out? Indeed. I strongly believe so. I strongly believe so. So she managed to desensitize to it, but her body was still hanging on to the distress as an a a tension pattern in her ator muscles. Yeah. Quite fascinating. And since I have. Since I public, not public, I guess you call it publishing. Since I posted that story on social media, I asked for other people who had similar experiences. And I've heard several, I've been getting people have contacted me to tell me, that happened to me. And I also have had painful penetration. And then I also it's very interesting. I spoke to someone recently who was telling me they had uterine cancer and their mother had to give up. The child that came before them for adoption again, Catholic country in the fifties, her mother couldn't keep the baby because she was unwed. So she had to give it up for adoption. And this woman with the uterine cancer told me she felt she had been conceived in a poisoned womb. 'cause her mother was so distraught around giving up this child. And then my own story, just to be transparent here, my mother also lost a baby before I was born. Oh, wow. And I also had uterine cancer, and I just noted that. I thought that started with peculiar coincidence. I wonder how many other people have had that experience of having a mother who had a sad womb or a traumatized womb, or some varied emotion because you're encouraged when the next baby comes if something doesn't work out well with the baby that can before. You should be happy. Everything's fine. You've got your baby. What are you complaining about? But who knows what's happening to the baby that's in that womb, in terms of gestation and emotion and the washing of chemical information through the placenta, the body of the baby, I don't know. There's a lot to consider there. I guess I said there's, I'm sounding woowoo to myself right now sitting here and talking about this, but at the same time, I think these things have, I think the world is much more interconnected than we give it credit for, and I think we do have the ability to absorb emotional content in the form, at least of cortisol and neuropeptides and neurotransmitters and what they do to our gestational process and the development of our emotional body during gestation. I think that has to be consider absolutely. Absolutely. I, yeah, I'm just, I, it really opens up such a wide, a new terrain of consideration for practitioners when working with clients. And in this situation it was so clear because there were no instances of sexual trauma violation, et cetera. She had never given birth before. What was it, and, the unwinding of that that, from, as you describe in your writing, the unwinding of the tightness in her introitus as well as her whole, the whole, I think side of her body, it was when you first laid your finger at her oi and then the result of her being able to have pleasurable sex and orgasms afterwards, which was never, it sounds like, was not even a possibility before. No, it certainly, it was the, she. She approached me about a session and then didn't come in for years. And then finally did come in. She took a long time to think about whether she wanted to do this intravaginal exploration. A very long time to think about it. But then she did come in and it did propagate a process in her where she could figure out what to do with it herself. But she, it's always that moment of, I don't know why I'm telling you this. That element of surprise. That's the time, to the practitioners out there to really perk up your ears. Yeah. Because this is the body speaking. It's not the cog. The minute the brain says, I don't know why, that's the cue. The body has got something to say. As I read it, I was so curious whether her mother was still living and if there's any sense of how. The mother's embodiment may have shifted. Ooh, that's an interesting question. Wow. I don't know. Perhaps I'll I'll ask her. Oh my God, I'm so curious, Ellen. I would love to know. Okay. If her mother is still alive, that's, I hadn't considered that question, but boy, would that be something Spooky action outta distance. Her mother is, and she's on another continent. Totally. Very interesting to know. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting to know. Yeah. Yeah. Because if that energetic interruption has been completed, my guess is that her mother will have felt it and yeah, it would be a great follow up article that would be oh, I'm getting chills thinking about this. Yeah. The possibilities of it. Yeah. Of the what really struck me, there's so many things that has ha have struck me over the years of sensor our stream training and having our supervision groups, since then of, really I don't wanna oversimplify by saying they're simple processes, I remember you sharing with me. It is a simple procedure of de sticking the uterus from a c-section scar. You know how it doesn't take a long time, and yet so many women who've had C-sections and subsequently the u have their uterus is stuck to their C-section scar so that their cervixes can't, get out of the way of an incoming, person or object experience sexual pain as a result. Such a simple remedy, yes. Simple of applying castor oil and just, massaging that area of where the uterus sticks to the C-section. Yeah. I feel like there's so many kind of simple remedies like that. If we just, if this information was more mainstream. That would be great. I'm hoping that through processes that social media makes available, such as your podcast, such as blogs and Facebook posts, and all the ways that people have available to talk about these processes, these possibilities, that more and more people will hear them and wake up and eventually paradigm, a bottom up seepage of this information into the zeitgeist and the culture. And I think it has to come that way because it's so far outside of the ex extent medical paradigm, but eventually it will just seem like common sense. And even the medical paradigm will say of course, this is the way it's, and it's been, yeah. You've understood this. Okay. That's good. As long as it gets out there and can be helpful to people. That's really the idea. That's the important part. Absolutely. Ellen before we bring this to a close, I had a colleague reach out to me because one of her friends had cervical cancer and had endured radiation treatment. And it made me think back to being supervised by you of one of two of my clients who had cervical and uterine cancer. But it was the effect of the radiation that really made their ti intravaginal tissues dry and brittle and painful. And how you how there are ways to clean the blood, clean the liver, and use castor oil to. To moisturize and bring sensitivity to regenerate that tissue. For people out there who may have endured radiation, intra intravaginally or intra pelvic of course each human being is unique in their, kind of history of biochemistry and emotions and trauma. But are there some general guidelines that you can provide to give people some hope and some guidance as to how to start addressing that re res sensitizing their tissues? Certainly the application of cast oil is first and foremost, removing the radiation from the body is another one. And that gets into mud baths, really bathing in clay, getting certain kinds of very absorptive clay, and being in a bathtub up to your ears, sinking down deep in the water and letting the water just pull any. Ambient radiation, toxicity and toxicity out of your tissues. You could, one, could not you, but if you had it doesn't, it sounds counterintuitive, but doing a clay pack in it on an area, not a mucosal membrane, but certainly on the perineum and over the lymph of the pelvis to help it drain, is going to help remove any toxic byproducts of the radiation treatment. Clay pack over the skin of the groin on either side of the of the vulva, from the outer lips to the hip bones, from the sit bones to the hip bones, and up in that groin break of the leg area. Certainly making a slurry of clay mixed with water till it's about the, texture of peanut butter and then drying, letting the clay dry, it will pull a lot of toxins out. And that whole area needs to be detoxified as a result of not just the radiation, but any artifacts of chemotherapy that might have been applied, et cetera, et cetera. So castor oil on the mucosal tissue, clay on the skin tissue, and then castor oil after the clay to then increase lymphatic drainage because you pulled everything out that can come out in the clay, but then you need to re lubricate the lymph, juice it up again so it can continue to move fluid through. And castor oil is very good for that. So that would be like a half day process. That's like a, a spa day at home. Castor oil. Yeah. On the mucosal tissue, like intravaginally on the cervix or what's left of the cervix. All, all around between the inner and outer lips. Just mass massage it on liberally and let it soak in. Then clay pack over the lymphatics at the groin in over the skin, and then a castor oil pack over the lymph on the skin. And that would be a really excellent treatment. And if you did that three days a week, I had a client who had anal cancer and her, it had such a huge impact down the whole back body line. In terms of scarification that spread, she had gotten to the point where she could scarcely walk because how tight her hamstrings were as a result of the radiation on her anus. So I had her do castor oil packs on her anus and all down the backs of her legs, and it brought her back into normal range of motion with no pain. So certainly castor oil. And she also did anal tampons inside her anus menstrual tampons, but soaked in castor oil, intra anally as to help with the lubrication of the of the rectum because it was hard for her to poop because of the, I can imagine. Yeah. 'cause just the tissue was not it, the self lubricating properties of the tissue were limited as a result of the radiation treatment. Sure. But castor oil certainly helped to bring that back into a more normal. Function. Yeah. It reminds me of you had supervised me on a client who had seven or eight surgeries after removing her vaginal mesh and the organic tampons dipped in castor oil. Intravaginally in, in her situation, really allowed for those tissues to absorb the properties that increase blood flow and lymph flow, and instrumental as a prelude to the palpation and bringing life and sensitivity back to the tissues. Yeah. Castor oil is really remarkable. It's a remarkable gift of nature, and we're lucky to. Have it easily available and it's inexpensive, so it's white, easily available. And that's the mind blowing thing. Yeah. It's just so easy, yeah. I just, I, you can get it from Amazon, you can get it from Whole Foods. You just make sure it's organic and you're re gonna be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Ellen, thank you so much for just pioneering this work, for really being an artist as well as a scientist, and for sharing the, research the depth and wisdom that that you bring, I think is really profound and such a gift. So your dissertation is available on your website Sure. For people supervis, if they wanna to, if and just to be kind. If people wanna read the dissertation without. You can only turn one page at a time. You can't skip around the dissertation. If somebody wanted to read it in a way where they, it was more easily navigable they can, people can email me and I'm happy to share my dissertation for anyone who's got the intestinal fortitude to weigh in because it's, it's very deep academic writing and not all, not for the faint of heart, but it, there's good conversation, 611 pages dissertation. I'm proud of it. That's wonderful. That's very generous of you. So people can email you from your website. Sure. Yeah. Contacted ellen p.com. Okay, great. contact@ellenheat.com. And before we wrap up Ellen I'm asking all my guests if there's a somatic contemplation or practice that you can recommend to listeners that would just really nourish and encourage them to deepen their sexual embodiment. Wow. Could be a breathing, could be a touch, could be. I think a good one is just to for people for people of people, anyone with a pelvis to drape, one's hands over the pubic bone and if there's a penis there that just separate your fingers, the Vulcan salute the Vulcan salute. So on either side of the penis, but just to drape pants and let them relax. Really just let them relax and breathe and feel the heel of the hand on the pubic bone. And to feel the fingers cupping over the pubic bone. There's something so comforting about that cupping motion to feel not just the top surface of the pubic bone, but the bottom surface of the pubic bone. There's something completing in a three dimensional way about that's soothing to the nervous system I find. And I think we can cup our own pubic bones as well as have them cupped by practitioners, but I think it's great to cup your own and just be with your breath, be with your awareness and see what comes up. You can ask, is there anything I need to hear from my body in mis contact? That's beautiful. Be interesting to see what comes up. Yeah it makes me wonder what could happen over a series of days if one did that, in the morning. It's such a simple practice, and yet that intentional dis listening for what the pubic bone and the pelvis has to say have to tell us the stories that they have to share. Worlds of information inside the pelvis. Indeed, I keep discovering more and more. Information that goes back. We don't know how far. That's very exciting. It's because it's it's star Trek going into the vast unknown. The very exciting Exactly. The right, yeah. Thank you so much for your time today, Ellen. I really appreciate it. And yeah, for our listeners, I'll have those on links on my show notes. And again, you can go to ellen he.com for more information on Ellen's work. I, how did it feel to make such gentle contact with your pubic bone? Is it, or any other part of your body where there might be scar tissue or a past injury? Calling out for your attention after listening to this episode. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pain, Scar Tissue & Recovery **Tags:** C-section, embodied sexuality, painful sex, Pleasure Practices, postpardum, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Scar tissue remediation, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, sexual trauma recovery --- ### [How Genital Armour Develops, Affects Our Sexuality, and Resolves from the Body with Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) **Published:** February 2, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Unconscious genital guarding, which can show up as numbness, pain, or a lack of sensation, often occurs within the genitalia and pelvis from a breech of boundaries and nonconsensual sex, but can also develop from non-sexual experiences during childhood, as well as during love-making with loved ones. Susanne Roursgaard, Psychotherapist/Sexologist and Creator of the Gaia Method speaks about her experiences as a mid-wife resolving genital armour with her clients and how these experiences informed her decades of work culminating in The Gaia Method. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Genital Armoring: How the Body Holds Trauma & Blocks Pleasure **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode: We explore genital armoring—how the body stores sexual trauma, tension, and protective patterns that limit pleasure and sensation with Susanne Roursgaard. You’ll learn how these patterns form and how somatic healing can restore sensitivity, aliveness, and connection. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun") [the-gaia-method.com](https://www.the-gaia-method.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Susanne Roursgaard, creator and founder of The Gaia Method (since 2010), has decades of experience as a practitioner, therapist, teacher and workshop leader. With her passion for helping others to feel freedom, safety, boundaries, joy, compassion and love, she is dedicated to bringing healing and trauma release to her clients – to feel natural sensitivity and pleasure in the body, to feel alive, to be at home in their body and to have peace of mind. In essence, to help people discover who they really are. Susanne is and has always been very curious, wanting to know and understand life. This has lead to a variety of education as a Psychotherapist, Body-oriented Trauma Therapist, Sexologist specializing in Sexual Abuse, Family Therapist, Couples Counsellor, Interspiritual trainer, certified TRE-provider, and last but not least, her medical background working as a Danish Midwife for 23 years. Susanne was born in Denmark, now living more around the world than any specific place. Her bases are The Netherlands and Denmark. She is a mother of 2 children, both young adults now. Susanne is now sharing her life, her path and work with her beloved Adam Beker. She is a Shamanic and Tantric practitioner with a committed meditation practice. ## What You’ll Learn About Genital Armoring & Sexual Trauma $ “Slow is the fastest way…”. $ How Susanne’s path as a mid-wife working with clients with a history of sexual abuse led her to becoming a sexologist and develop a specialty for Genital De Armouring. $ How up to 80% of sexual armour is from early childhood experiences – before age 7. $ How pregnancy and childbirth can invite triggering experiences reminding the body of past sexual violations. $ How completing the energetic interruption of unintentional C-sections can be facilitated via the cervix. $ How boredom and frustration during sexual intimacy can be a reflection of genital armour. $ How the body can respond to arousal stimuli physiologically, yet not receive embodied pleasure, and how permission and conviction can be the keys for their resolution. $ How “being with what is” – without imposing any outer agenda onto the body, can be the medicine inviting the body’s trust and responsiveness to return. ## Explore more on Genital De-armoring This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion ](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Related Eps — Pelvic Healing & Sexual Restoration** [How pelvic pain and scar tissue transform into pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [How cervical healing and orgasmic potential evolves with de-armoring](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) [How pleasure can be utilized as medicine for pelvic restoration](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [How genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing can restore health and aliveness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-dearmoring-somatic-sexual-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In this episode, we explore genital armoring, how unconscious guarding patterns can show up as pain, numbness, discomfort, or lack of sensation in the genitalia. How much of our adult pelvic armor forms during our childhood years and what's required to release this safely and effectively for restored pleasure and wholeness? At the end of the episode, Suzanne leads us through a somatic exercise for waking up and engaging previously disconnected tissue from within the genitalia and pelvis. I am thrilled today to be inviting Suzanne Skar who I just admire and appreciate so much in our world. She has such a both a depth and a breadth of, experiences that address the whole body and the whole person. So a little background about Suzanne. She is a psychotherapist, a body-based trauma therapist, a sexologist specializing in sexual abuse. She's also a family and couples therapist, an inter spiritual trainer, and has been a midwife for 23 years. And she has synthesized and synergized her decades of experience into her body of work called the Gaia Method which is so holistic and complete, and it's so beautiful in the ways the Gaia method holds that sacred space for inviting us to return to our essence. Suzanne, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for inviting. Yes. Suzanne, given your, the depth of your experiences in both somatic trauma-based therapies as a sexologist, as a psychotherapist there's so much we can cover, but I really I'd like to focus on specifically deaming and specifically genital deaming. To start off, I would love to ask you, Suzanne, how your path led you to your experiences in holding space for genital disarming? It started when I was a midwife with me, often experiencing that pregnant women, birthing women clearly gave signs, body signs, or even came to memories of sexual abuse. And I knew nothing of it. I didn't know how to hold space for it. And it was not part of the medical training within obstetrics obstetrics. So I decided that I needed to know more about that because I met a lot of women. We are not talking a few percentages. We're talking somewhere between 25, 40 5%. All the women I would get in contact with would actually display symptoms or behavior that, that equals that there is some sort of sexual abuse or. Or incest or maybe even rape, that is hidden in their system or they haven't shared it maybe with us. Some of them don't know. So I decided to become a sexologist and specialized then in sexual abuse, incest, rape, because of me meeting them in the hospitals and really not knowing how do you work with them once they are, pregnant and giving birth, and why do they react so strongly to their sexual abuse when they're in this state of life. So that was my way into, to starting to discover this and then. I ended up becoming quite a cognitive sexologist having a lot of people referred to me from others. And some of the ones that I would get referred to would be to me, would be someone that had been in, in therapy for 25 years. And they would come to me and they would speak about their story. Like they were talking about laundry, they were completely unaffected. And I was like, there's nothing I can do with these people. And at that time in my life, I've been in my spare time following a tantric and a shamanic path where you do a lot of, let's call it alternative ways of working at least viewed from a more normal cognitive medical system. So I had one client especially that was say, let's call it my. My point of no return. That came to me and she was talking about really severe sexual abuse throughout her whole childhood. Like it was nothing. And and she'd been in therapy for so many years. I was like, I can't do anything with her. And I just sensed that her body was screaming for help. So I asked her, okay, you seem to have spoken enough about this. Has anyone ever addressed your body? And then she completely broke down and said, I just heard the biggest yes. Finally inside of me. So I told her that we can do experimental treatment that I normally don't do in my professional life, but I'm used to working with this in my own. Communities. And there we, we have really good results with working with various kinds of sexual trauma, sexual numbness disconnectedness, whatever it is through what you would call genital deaming. And that then led to her saying, yes, please, I would love to have a session. So she came for a session and this woman was married for 17 years already, and she was sexually active with her husband, but she was completely numb, meaning that she felt nothing in her genitals when she would have intercourse. What she felt and enjoyed about being sexual with her partner was the heart connection, the love she could feel that they were sharing, and the joy and the happiness that she saw in him because she allowed him to, share her body. So after a week of the first session, she called me and she said, Suzanne, did you know that it feels good to have a penis inside of you? And I told her, yeah, I do know. And she was like, can I have the next session? So she got the next session, and after her second sex session, she called me and said, my partner thinks I've had an orgasm. What do you think? So she described it and said, yeah, it does sound like that could have been an orgasm. And within three months, all the women that was in her self-help group for incest. Started calling me and saying, Hey, you've been working with our friend and could you work with me too? And then gradually that was my way into it. But in the beginning, I truly only worked with sexual trauma. And sexual deaming. And then later on I expanded that because trauma is trauma when it comes to the body. So you can have things stored in your genitals, even though it's not a sexual trauma, it's another type of blockage that sits in that area of the body. But my way into it was through my. My being specialized within sexual abuse. And then gradually people that weren't sexually abused started calling me and say, Hey, we hear about your work. I'm not sexually abused, but I have this problem. Do you think you could work with me? And everybody got the same song. It's gonna be experimental. I can't promise you anything. It's out outside the system and you have to be aware. I don't promise you anything, but if you're willing to explore, then I'm willing to do this with you. And yeah. And then over 10 years it developed into becoming the Gaia method gradually. So that's my way in. That's so beautiful. I love that. I wanna take a moment to really explain a little bit about how armoring can form in the pelvis and the genitalia, really anywhere in the body. And going back to your first experimental client, 17 years in a marriage that after that one session I think you shared with me before that she was someone who had a history of sexual violation severely. Yeah. And I wanna I wanna touch on the degrees to which our tissues hold on to unintegrated emotions and. How restoring sensation in the tissues is like a gateway for releasing those past unintegrated emotions and trauma. Very often people think of trauma as being a mental thing, and that's a very big misunderstanding because trauma is something that happens to the body. And the mind might remember it, but it might not, but your body always remember it. So that means that the trauma is actually a physical experience in the body that will sit, as you can call it, memory residue that is sitting in the actual tissue, in your nervous pathways in the cells. And typically when we experience trauma, and I really mean trauma in a very broad sense, because trauma can be these one time big incidents where it's very big and extreme what happens to you. But that is not the type of trauma you'll find. The most of the trauma we find in the body is what you could call developmental trauma. Meaning that's all the times throughout your childhood when you grew up, when you were not met, seen. Treated, respected handled the way you actually needed it, and where you again and again, basically had to defragment part of yourself by closing elements down of yourself, and part of that can then result in numbness in the tissue because you completely disconnected to this area of the tissue. The tissue is still sensing, but the signaling to your conscious mind and your brain about what's happening is not there anymore. So it's a disconnect inside the system. It's not really because the nervous system is broken, it's just not communicating with you anymore. So you can pick it up, or it could be the other way where the body gets hypersensitive, where it's so alert to not have this happen again. That it, the tiniest little thing. Will then be sending a signal to your brain like, Ooh danger. It's painful. You are damaging yourself. So even the slightest little touch can feel like people are stabbing you or pushing really hard. And it creates pain that is not in proportion to the kind of action or touch that you were actually just exposed to. And there are so many things that can add to trauma in the body and this body armor. And one of the things is, like I said, when you're not treated the way you need it to, or if you have one of these extreme one-time incidents, that could be a severe traffic accident. It could be, you had earthquake, big time, earthquake, things that tsunamis things where you're like, okay, this is violent, this is big. And it's typically out of your control. It's happening, but it's not something that keeps repeating. Whereas if you are growing up in a, let's say, dysfunctional family or just a family that don't get you Yep. Don't see you for who you are. Then you will have the same thing repeated again and again. So even if the actual thing that has happened to you seems like just a little thing. Yeah. But it's little thing times a thousand times 10,000 and that means it, it builds gradually to not being this little thing anymore. And so elements of what blocks inside your system is from what's happened to you done by others. But then there's the type of body armor that is created by our own way of treating ourselves. Such as not respecting our boundaries. Pleasing others, even if we cross our boundaries because we are afraid of not belonging to the group, not being accepted being, so we do a lot of things ourself as well that creates armor. A classic one for women in, when we talk about genital armor is when you are even in a loving relationship with a partner you love dearly, maybe he feels like having intercourse a little more often than you do. And you notice, oh, it's two weeks ago. And he's starting to be like a little, grumpy and you sense, okay he's, he wants to go there, but basically you don't really wanna go there. And maybe you notice when he gets a little etchy, he starts also being annoyed with the kids easier. And you're like, oh, I don't want it to harm them. And the woman might be like, yeah. And, I do enjoy it once we start. It's just this starting. I can't get myself to it. But, once we start, 5, 10, 15 minutes down the road, I'm just as much into it as him. And then you as a woman decide to interact and maybe be penetrated with the penis inside at a moment where your body is actually still saying no, I'm not there. So no partner has been violating you, you've been inviting it in out of a lot of, taking care of other people's needs and basically putting yourself and your own need lower to, I wanna I love him. I wanna show him, you are important I'll get there. And these kind of behaviors are, I think most women that are in longer relationships they have experienced this at least once, where they weren't really there, but then, oh, okay. I'll get myself there. But these type of actions that we do ourselves, they can actually create armor as well and can create pain or numbness. Yeah. There's a lot of great things that you shared here. I feel like what I'm hearing is every little contraction within the body and the body's tissue really accumulates and adds up and can start to create that armor really anywhere in the body. But the our genitalia is so sensitive and such a vulnerable part of our body that the armor that can build within the genitalia for a woman or a man doesn't necessarily have to do with just a violent penetration a breach of boundaries. It can happen within loving relationships. With each contraction or resistance that is overrun by the body's owner, by just succumbing or wanting to please. And by the way, this can happen within men too, whose libido is less than their partner and they feel obligated or forced to engage and then they start feeling disconnected from their own genitalia. And then there's another aspect to it, and that is once you start working with sexual deaming, my estimate is that with everybody I work with sexual deaming, 80% of what we are actually healing and dealing with is early childhood things. It's from before the age of seven. It's often when they're 2, 3, 4, 5 years old. And I wasn't good enough. I wasn't the good boy, the good girl. I was, too slow, too much, too little. Not lovable. Many of these negative self voices that many of us have deep within, even though we might try not to let people know we have them, but that negative self voice very often is actually located physically within the genital region or the pelvis region. And I, I can't say if it's true, but there's a Norwegian sexologist and psychologist that worked a lot with children. And he did some research that actually showed that by the age of seven he did research on children By the age of seven, a lot of children already had very intense, chronic tension within the genital and pelvic region that was stemming from these small things with dysfunctional things in the family, but very much with this, I'm not good enough. I'm not sweet enough, I'm too much or nobody loves me. So those are often things that when we start working with the genital deaming, even if the client came to you because they wanna work with their sexuality it's not rare that it turns out that thing in their sexuality actually stems all the way back to this little inner child not feeling, loved or good enough or appreciated or maybe simply feels like I'm too much or I'm not entitled for anything not worth. Yeah. That makes. They're definitely there. So it's it's a misconception. Again, if we think that sexual deaming equals we're going to work with sexual issues, we can be working with deep, systemic, low self-worth issues. Yeah. Yeah. I find that actually so many, just as you're saying, Suzanne, so many of the sexual issues that clients come in with are actually life issues. And as you say, that can be threaded back all the way. To childhood and the early formation of one's sense of self-worth and identity. It makes so much sense to me that the Norwegian sexologist discovered this because that sense of belonging, we feel in that sense of security within the pelvis. And of course it's where the SOAs muscle is as well. As well as, who knows what gets passed down from our parents through first contact with our genitalia and potty training and our first exposure to playing with our genitals or self pleasuring and discovering our relationship with that important part of our body. Yeah. A lot of shaming comes from there. And sometimes the shaming is, that you were told by words. For a lot it, it can even happen much earlier. Imagine you are a tiny little baby and you have a diaper on 24 7. And that diaper never comes off unless you need to be changed because you either did number one or number two. And for a child that wants to touch themselves and oh, it's just nice to get the hands down if you're a little baby and finally the diaper comes up and I wanna have my hands down here, and your mom or your dad is changing you for number two. So the parent will be like, no, don't do that. Don't judge. But you're not aware of number two being all over the place. And if you put your hands down there, you're gonna get messy. So if you are putting as a little child, your hands towards your genital, because I just wanna touch, it feels like it's calling me. And now you get this very strong no. So you actually get a shock saying, hands do not belong there. And you might even get this feeling of. I'm bad, I'm wrong because I wanted to do this. So even that can become part of this feeling shame about that area and it stems from being diaper changed and your parents not realizing that them saying no because they were afraid of the little one getting, fes all over their hands. That actually when a child is coming from a complete different intent and doesn't know anything then that's what it is gonna be affected in there. So it goes really deep what we do. It goes really deep. Yeah. And it makes me sad just hearing that because just recognizing how the pure innocence of a child and particularly a child's exploration and love of their sensations. Can get shamed and punished. And again, there's that contraction within the nervous system not only of the anger, but of, the threat of love being taken away by my caretaker and how that leads into our adolescent behavior and can lead into our adult behavior. Exactly. So I wanna come back to the genital deaming. And really because it is, they are unintegrated emotions that live in our tissues and in your journey holding space for genital disarming the role and, it's all over the Gaia method, just the role of the unconditional presence. And inviting the story of the body to be told for that. Unintegrated emotion to release, how important that is in all Deming. I know you distinguish your Deming as soft from standard disarming, and I would love to hear how, just how you discovered that unconditional presence and the soft Deming is far more effective. I think again, that, that part stems back to being a midwife. Whenever you work as a midwife and things aren't working right and you learn to have hands that are present, hands that are there hands that are leaning in until the body lets it in. So part of that already was in my system from how we work. But also because for me it makes no sense that when you have armor in your body, you have armor because there was some needs or a boundary that was overstepped, meaning something was pushed too far inside of you. So to me, it's never made any sense at all that you would then use the technique of pushing too far to try to heal something that was pushed too far. Because for me, that equals breaking down and you can break down armor, but that has a lot of issues that sometimes can surprise people afterwards with some. Nothing happens other than it broke it down and it was very painful and left them yellow, green, black and blue. But with others, they actually get re-traumatized severely. So for me it's also a question of whenever you wanna heal trauma or heal any unresolved aspect of a person. That aspect is still in there, but that aspect is in hiding because I'm not welcome. I'm not allowed to be here. I'm not invited to the table yet. So for me, it's very important that the whole approach is an approach of respect and inviting and knowing that a body hold immense wisdom like our brain thinks it's about wise not at all compared to a body. So it's also about trusting that if we are inviting something. And it chooses not to come forward today. There's a good reason. And that reason can then be that this person needs to develop some skills first before he or she is ready to actually look at this problem or this history. Or it could be that I have to look inward and realize that whatever is hidden in that emotion inside this person, I, as a practitioner, actually cannot be with that emotion myself. And then I cannot hold space for another one. The welcoming that emotion and the wisdom of a client will be able to tune into that, that, oh, this person won't be able to handle my anger or my resend or my, nasty words if that's what needs to come out. So it's very much about this really inviting, accepting, welcoming that everything is welcome, nothing is wrong, and that all aspects and all parts of people need to be allowed to be part of the whole. It doesn't mean that a part needs to take over the whole, but it needs to be part of the whole, so that all these fragmented parts that we have had to reject can come back in again. And the soft touch, it allows the body and the nervous system to not have to go into self-defense against me. But if I start pushing really hard and I push beyond the pain threshold of a person, that body is going to. When we go into the primitive systems of fight, flight, and freeze, those will get activated if I push too hard because now that body will start to look at, wow this person is attacking me. This person is a threat, so what do I need to do? Oh, I need to tense up even more to withstand that pressure. And that means that, whatever needs to come from within is not gonna reach the surface because now the body is busy, basically defending itself. And then I would have to push harder and harder. And at some point we might break it down, but when we don't do that, it sometimes can take with some a little longer in the beginning because the body gets almost, if it's used to a harder handling, it almost gets a little confused. Oh, is she just gonna be patient? Is she just gonna sit there and wait? Is she. Nah, she can't be that loving because all the ones in my memory from my past, they would always, when I weren't fast enough, get angry with me. So sometimes the body will also, in the beginning when you show it this soft, very inviting way, almost test your patients as a practitioner can you really stay loving and present still even if I don't deliver? And when the body realized that, oh, actually I'm still being accepted, my speed is being accepted, then suddenly the body actually, they're stepping into co-creating with you. Instead of being dumb to. So it becomes a co-creation between this holding the inviting space with lots of love and compassion and, all those emotions that were absent when the fragmentation inside the person was created. That's basically what we are providing so that it can come forward and come into a present healing of receiving what was lacking in the past. Yes. Yeah. What I'm hearing is really the importance and necessity of meeting the tissues and the nervous system where the tissues and nervous system feel ready and safe to be met because we are reversing that reflexive self-defense response, again within the tissues in the nervous system. And the important I always I often view understanding like what age a significant trauma happened. I feel like the tissue is that age, it's feeling stuck or it's, yeah. Still reliving that story. And so if it is a three-year-old, a three-year-old will test the adults around them to make sure that they're absolutely safe. And also when you activate the tissue or for instance a wounding that was placed in the body when the person is three, very often the person can go into a regression at that time. And their capacity and ability of tools they can use within their own system. The age of a 3-year-old. So that's also why sometimes you might even ask the client, how old do you feel right now? And they themselves would be like, swear, I feel like I'm three years old. Okay. That's tissue telling you how old were you actually when this freeze came into your system? And then you want to meet it according to the age. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we're meeting it and rewriting the story for that three-year-old, within the three-year-old's body. Now in the body of an adult that it, it can be safe, it can be seen, its voice can be heard, and it's safe to feel its natural sensations again. Suzanne I wanna actually touch upon, excuse me, something you shared earlier about, as a midwife, how you recognize the high percentage of trauma that was with the stored within the body of your clients. And given that, given your background as a psychotherapist, sexologist, and a midwife, you're the perfect person to ask this, when those unintegrated traumatic experiences are still held within the pelvis of a pregnant woman the way that those that those experiences and memories can be activated during the pregnancy, I'm guessing, especially the third trimester, and the birthing itself, when those tissues are being touched into in a way that may not have occurred since a violation or a past trauma. Yeah, I the degree to the, which that happens or can happen. The reason it can happen is because anytime you have a, an unwanted experience, let's call it that, instead of trauma, but an unwanted experience that your body has memorized in a way where your body's I never wanna experience this again. Then your body has also created triggers, memory triggers, and that means anything in the future, in the present moment that reminds you of these triggers will be enough to activate that old wound. And pregnancy and childbirth holds a lot of triggers. That equals the trigger and the situation actually that you were in, especially if you have sexual trauma, which means that being pregnant, it can be that, there's something moving around inside your body and it's out of your control. And sometimes, when you're in a third trim trimester, the baby can be kicking all over and you're tired. You just, oh, be quiet. 'cause, my, my belly is like, I need a break, but you can't get the break. So that in itself can be this feeling of, I wanted to get out, but I couldn't. In childbirth it has to do with, especially when the head is born, the crowning of the head that type of pain, but in a reverse direction is similar to the pain a child would experience if an adult is penetrating them. So the pain has so much resemblance. To that memory of how the pain felt, that it can trigger it. And even breastfeeding can trigger as well, because again, breastfeeding, you don't own your own body. You are on call whenever it fits the baby. And if you were abused, then you were on call whenever it fitted. You are abuser so you can have a, you have a lot of situations that are triggers, which also means that you have a lot of of women that actually don't even know they have had abuse until the trigger gets activated and the memory comes back. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just I only had the one client I had came in, I think she was at 38 weeks, so she was safe to work on. But she was very intentional about wanting to release whatever emotions were within her vaginal canal before the birth. Yeah. And she had a big baby and she feels like it really helped. This brings us to Tova. I wanna ask you about Tova. For our listeners, so Tova gave me permission to reference this story in the DIARING training in SBA Sweden. Tova went through an experience where through Suzanne's support and guidance was able to complete an energetic interruption within her body during her birth giving when there was an unintentional C-section toga's great. She's healthy, she's a doula now, and her baby is adorable, super healthy, but she had this stuck energy and I wanted to invite Suzanne to describe what happens when there is an unintended c-section that occurs, especially when the parents are planning for natural childbirth. And what you did to facilitate the release of that energy. I found it fascinating. When you, like you say, when you have the intention of giving natural childbirth and you then for whatever reason ends up with a c-section or even the forceps or the vacuum extraction where it's not natural anymore. There is a, for many women, especially this sensation or feeling afterwards of I was a failure, I failed on something so fundamental for any woman to do something I should have been able to, and for some women, it actually means that they get a hate relationship to their body, almost like their body deceived them. You didn't do what we were supposed to do. And at other times it can play into, if you already have a feeling like, I'm never good at anything and now you also failed your childbirth so you can have this deep sense of not being a real woman because you couldn't manage what a real woman should have been able to. And that can sit as a very deep wounding and it's often a deep wounding that actually affects the connection between the child and the mother. Even if on a physical level the mother's doing all the right thing with the child, you will often experience that there's something energetically between the child and mother that is, is not really there. And sometimes you can even experience that these children prefer their daddy over their mother, even though the mother was breastfeeding. But I still prefer my daddy, and so there, there is something that gets interrupted somehow. And when you do sexual DMing if there is any kind of birth trauma, whether it was the c-section or the forceps instead of or the vacuum extraction instead of natural birth. Some women will experience that when we touch upon different areas of the inside tissue, and especially when we touch around the cervix, that suddenly they are, moved back to the sensation of the childbirth. Like they feel like they have contractions or they feel like, oh, it's almost there's a child that you know, should come out. And in that situation, you can go into an energetic birth rebirthing, as I call it, but it's an energetic one, but it's an energetic one that is done in connection with the woman's sensation in her physical tissue. And what kind of images, what kind of sensations, what kind of thoughts and emotions that bring up in her system? So for the woman who enters this sensation of a rebirthing is starting energetically for her, it truly feels like there's contraction. There's a baby. With her mind, she knows that's not the facts, but this is how it feels in her body. And in that position, we can simply go into childbirth, have her start pushing, have her, grab your legs, pull them up, if there's an extra helper, have them support her, lift up and have her push. And as the practitioner, what you do is that you give just a little bit of resistance against the cervix so that she has something to push against. And at some point she'll feel like, whoa, it's crowning, it's coming out. And it will really feel like her. And you'll typically see these mothers. Spontaneously take their hands down and, literally not do like this, but grab this invisible child, put it on their belly, and really hold it like there is something here. And typically go into crying relief joy. That totally looks if you see a beautiful movie of natural childbirth, whether the child comes out, and the mother just, blissfully cry from relief and happiness. And you can often see that coming. And then right after that, sometimes then the deep grief from the birth that they've been carrying comes as well. And the very interesting part is that I've been doing these kind of rebirths so many times, I don't know how often anymore. But with the ones where there have been some disconnection to their child, it's never been, they have a good connection, but it's never been, you know what, they might, sometimes the mothers know from other children. They have there's an element lacking and all of those that I've known that had that issue, when they come home and they connect with the child immediately. It's like it was never there. And that's even been when the children has been five years old, 11 years old, 14 years old, 14-year-old teenager that just constantly slams the door in the face of mother. And, it just, and then they come home after a rebirth like that and suddenly the teenager doesn't slam the door and speaks nicely and come and sit down and say, Hey, you wanna hear what I did in school today? And the mother's what? Where they share with me, I don't know what happened, but something in our energetic interconnection has completely switched. So it's quite magical. I don't understand myself what's going on. I know about oh, what's it called? Family Constellations. Const. Family Constellations. And this is what it reminds me of. Yes. The same kind of effect that you hear from family constellations. And what I've noticed also when I do these rebirthing, is that it can only be done. If the woman actually senses it, but it can be invited. So if I have women that know they have birth trauma, then when we start working internally, and especially when I'm addressing the cervix and working around the cervix, at some point then I will be holding the cervix and I will be asking them, could you please start pushing? I'll say, push down. And then we see, and very often if they have an intention of going there and the body actually wants to go there, then just as often by doing this invitation, we will experience that it does start happening, even though it didn't open up by itself. But at some points the body also says Uhuh, it's not gonna happen. But so sometimes we invite it to see is the body willing or not? But it is very beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It was so beautiful. And Tova gave me a ride back to Stockholm after that training, and she was just feeling so different in her body. And as her relationship with her daughter, who was I think about two at the time, had changed. Yeah. What strikes me in, in, and what strikes me is recognizing once again, when there is an interruption of the Organic Life force, how the Organic Life force wants to expand in the body. So the cervix is like preparing for nine months or maybe even longer, to, embody this sacred, past this sacred birthing. And so it makes so much sense to me that when it's, for medical, for whatever reasons, the C-section occurs, the cervix is still in a yearning kind of incomplete stage, and that. That those memories or that sensation would still be held there in the tissues. The whole body is preparing for birth. The many last months of the pregnancy getting everything looser, softer, more ready to be able to expand and dissolve. And so definitely the body is preparing itself for this is the road we're supposed to go down. And something is interrupted on a bodily level? Definitely. At least that's my take on it. Yeah. I wanna just comment on on Cerv cervical disarming for a moment, because I find that for most of my clients the cervix is quite armored when it's first made contact with, because I think most women, certainly are penetrated before their bodies are ready, during their adolescence and then all of the, medical procedures that cervixes have to endure. But then within, one session it can really deamer quite quickly and sensations can return. And then there's this whole, almost like a part of their body they weren't connected to can, can reconnect. Yeah. I think there's another element to it, and that is, the cervix is this hidden organ. You, it's not like a man where you have to go pee and you have a natural access physically to, to your genital where this part of the woman's body is so hidden up there. And definitely many countries, many religions do not teach women much about what they look like inside. So for many women, they're not even aware that this body part exists, which means that even on a emotional and mental level, you're not connected to it. It's like this nonexisting part in there. And then for a lot of women, the only connection they have to it is that they have been having intercourse in positions where there's been a bit too much, let's call it banging. Yeah. Straight directly on the cervix, which has been painful depending on where their cycle is. So they also have this ooh, there's something in there that can hurt. And that mean they don't necessarily get this sensation that there's anything positive about the cervix. 'cause nobody ever taught them and they didn't get to connect themselves with it. So I feel that many women, when we start working with sexual deaming, they're actually on a discovery path of just starting to get a relationship with their cervix. To realize that this cervix is a magical gateway to immense types of orgasms and experiences that. Far over seed for instance, a clitoral orgasm. So that's also part of it to even just embody that body part and realize, whoa, there's a body part here that, that can do things and actually can increase the ur eye as a woman can experience. When I. Do choose to be sexual or intimate, whether it's with yourself or a partner. Yeah I'm always amazed because I feel like it's, amongst the most important aspects of a woman's sexual anatomy as well as I, as you had mentioned, the vagus nerve goes all the way down to the cervix, so it does, yeah. The quality of orgasm is going to be full body, open the heart, it's gonna be so other worldly. And yet I feel like it, we're in a kind of stage where people are just discovering or just, becoming educated about the the sacredness of their cervix. Definitely, but you can say that in general around female genitals. It's only what, 10 or 15 years ago that it was discovered, the size of the clitoris and the shape of the clitoris before that, we didn't know anything about that. So there's been a tendency to not really, from a medical point of view, having much interest in the female genitals. And then also because most of the medical knowledge you had on female genitals was what doctors could discover from doing what's it called? Autopsies on coxes. Yes. And coxes do not move, respond to pleasure and respond and open up and flower and close and, so a lot of the knowledge was based on. Not knowing how this live organ actually can really move a lot and move down and pull itself back up and, almost have a life of its own. Yes. So those things are, really only in the last one, two decades that, that this is starting to come up, at least in the western world. 'cause you can still find a lot of information if you go more toward the tantric Asian old knowledge about even the Kadoka native American, they seem to know much more about sexuality than, let's call it the typical Western world. We are only catching up slowly now to, to the sacredness and yeah the potential I would say. Yeah, absolutely. It's endless, the potential there. There's one thing I didn't get to mention when we talked about armor that I would love to actually address, because many women will be like, no, I'm not numb. So I don't have that kind of armor and I don't have pain. Oh, I don't have armor. Perfect. Then I sometimes ask them, so if you are sexually intimate with penetration, does it get boring within five to 15 minutes? A lot of women will be. Yeah. After 15, 10 minutes, I do my little wiggle so we can get it over and done with. That is armor too. That is partial numbness. And a lot of women do not even know that boredom when you are being, whether it's massaged, touched or being, intimate physically, if you get bored after a short period of time, that is actually also armor because you're not receiving all the expanding pleasure signals. Your body is just not armored with numbness immediately. It just shuts down gradually after you start it. So a lot of women know that one that Oh, yeah. It gets a little boring after 5, 10, 15 minutes. And that's partial numbness. And it's also armored. Yes. Yeah. And it can all come to life, like you said, and it's really just about addressing it. Giving attention and staying with it and meeting it and touching it. Softly. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to touch on this phenomenon that you spoke of that speaks to the desensitization, the lack of stimulation which is within clients where there is a physiologically noticeable response to stimulation. So physiologically there's a healthy response, but they are not giving themselves permission to register the arousal and pleasure. Yeah. And in some clients it'll be like overcoming childhood shame. And then it's I had one client say, oh, I just felt my father leave the room. And then the pleasure started coming. Or, other clients where it seems like it's, allowing the energy to open, reopen the channels and then the arousal pleasure response will connect like in the synapsis of the brain. But can you speak to this phenomenon, because I know you've seen it quite a lot. Yeah. It's really about this internal capacity of sensing yourself. Because when we are touching and we are seeing physiologically it's responding, but it's responding due to some touch we have, but internally, the person is not connected. And that is really the neuron pathway between your conscious awareness, your brain, and the actual tissue that's disconnected. And like you said, shame is a big one. Lots of various cultural things. What kind of culture, religious things can also be, and why you are not allowed. But also it can also be a what's that called? I'm trying to find the English word here. Conviction. That, that is the reason you can't feel something, because maybe you were brought up with very strict parents where no fun until you've done all your chores and all your homework. And especially when we talk about sensitivity in the genitals inside, for most it's linked to sensitivity is linked to, then I can feel my pleasure. But for instance, if you were brought up with you, don't get out, have fun and play until you did all your chores and all the things that were on your list. And most adults have a list that will never empty out in a day because it's long enough for, a long time. That's right. And if you have that really strong build into your system, you are incapable of giving yourself permission to explore pleasure because you still haven't done your chores. So there's so many aspects to look into. Some of them are more cognitive, am I even allowed to feel pleasure or do I have to perform first? That's one of them. Yes. And the other one, like you said, is the shame or there's family members watching me energetically and they need to clear the space before I can actually be with my own body. Fear is also one fear of what other people would think about you. Sure. And that sometimes is a fear that wasn't there when they were small, but it came there when they were teenagers having their first explorations within, sensuality, sexuality, and typically exploring with another one who is just as insecure, not knowing what's up and down and right and wrong. And sometimes that other one has been responding to your maybe very expressive body language with what are you doing where you feel like, oh, this is wrong. So there can be many aspects to why it is that we can't feel it. Yes. But one of the aspects that I typically do when I or the things I start practicing is to, have the client work with themselves and then start doing this little practice of sensing their tissue with a finger. So now it's my hand exploring, and that could be externally, but if they're internally, then the finger is exploring the walls of the vagina or maybe the cervix, if they can reach it, maybe the gpa. But then after a while I tell them, okay, hold your finger still now, have your tissue feel the finger. And there you can often see, can they or can't they? So you can get a sense here of whether or not their internal sensations are there or not. This is also linked to what is called the, my English is failing me right now. When you have the primary root of, or the first root of pleasure, which is the direct root of pleasure, that's an in internal experience of what goes on in my body. And then you have the indirect root of pleasure, which is where you need something else to give you permission to experience it. And that is often what's involved with when we have this kind of, I, I can't sense it that this direct root of pleasure, connection has been distorted somewhere down the path. And every newborn baby is born with that one intact. The capacity of feeling pleasure in their blood body and feeling bliss. If you massage a little baby, they're just gonna be, enjoying it. No shame, no holding back. But then life comes in with our, upbringing or shaming people, ridiculing us, whatever happened, culture all these things that then gradually makes us cut off this ability of actually sensing the direct root of pleasure. And now we start needing an excuse. And that excuse could be, have you cleaned up your room and done all your chores? Or it could be, I can only enjoy sensations if it's being done to me. I sometimes meet women that come to me and say, I don't get it. If my partner is. Is pleasuring me with his hands or with his mouth? Oh, I get the most beautiful orgasms, but I've never been able to masturbate and get an orgasm on my own. Here you have a classical one. I can't do it to myself 'cause I'm not allowed. I need. External reason for it to be okay. But that one is very important in this one. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really about permission and for our listeners to really investigate the degree to which we do give ourselves permission. And where that might have been where that contraction may have been formed. It could have been, being caught self masturbating for the first time by a parent and being yelled at. Or it could have been, a, an older sibling or a relative who's being judged for being too sexual. A promiscuous. Yeah. Or as you're saying, we can have it done to us, but to do it to ourselves is a whole other realm. So to really. Inquire within your body and your kind of yeah. Your journey where that permission may have gotten stuck. I, if you are, for instance a client and you don't feel anything, then you know the job is to or the, not the job, the journey is to really start touching and then, sit with it. I can't feel anything. And then, the next thing that might arise is frustration. Okay. Then you sit with the frustration. I can't feel anything and maybe after the frustration, the sadness comes, I can't feel anything. So you sit through all emotions because what you're doing now is you're giving permission. But very often when we start a journey like this, if it's a woman coming, 'cause I wanna be able to feel pressure and I wanna be able to do it myself, and then she start touching, but I don't feel pressure, she gets frustrated and see's not working. But this is the journey towards pleasure because the journey towards pleasure means can I give myself permission to feel what's alive right now? So when you start the healing journey of this in the beginning, what's alive is, I can't feel anything. Okay? Sit with that one. And then the next feeling that might come underneath, sit with that one. Because every time you give permission, then it can transform into the next little thing, the next little thing, the next little thing. And gradually you'll start to realize, oh, now it doesn't feel as numb anymore. Okay, sit with this. So it's very much about the this compassionate. Allowing and being with what is that is actually the permission giving that is needed to end up having full res sensitization at some point. Yes. I love that. Being with what is, and again, meeting the tissues where they feel safe and ready to be met and allowing whatever story, even if it's boredom or frustration, to be felt. To be told. To be expressed and especially frustration because if you sit and hold onto a tissue that's numb and you get frustrated. First of all, you probably get frustrated with yourself in many other situations of your life, meaning you're not very loving towards yourself. So this practice is also a practice in self-love. Can I sit with this and not get frustrated, not get angry? And if I get frustrated, can I even have compassion for the frustrated side of me? Yes. But also at the same time, remember that when we get frustrated that actually this numb tissue or oversensitive tissue that's causing me pain is not trying to harm me. That tissue is doing what it's doing in an attempt. To keep me safe because it was created at some point in our life where we needed either something to stay away, then pain is a good way for us to stay away from something or something we couldn't stay away from because it kept happening and it was so uncomfortable every time it happened. So our body helped us and say, you know what? I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna make you numb when it happens so you don't have to suffer through it. So whether we're dealing with armor that is numbness or armor that is, is hypersensitivity, it's your body that at some point was doing its very best to protect you. To actually serve you. And now when we want to tell this armor, Hey, I don't need your service anymore, then it's very important, at least this is my view, to not come at it with this anger and just get out and go away because no, you know this is a part of you that's been trying to look out for you. So now we need to get this part to understand that we appreciate what you've been doing up till now, but your service is no longer needed. You can, you can ret relax, and then we can allow the body to restore again. So that it comes from this point of gratitude actually. Yes. Yeah. I feel like this is such an important point, Suzanne, because the body is infinitely wise in knowing what it needs to survive and to protect itself. So there was a reason for the tissues and the armor to form in order to survive certain situations. And this actually occurs, especially in incidences of trauma, when we dissociate or leave the body, it would be too overwhelming to bear that experience. So the nervous system is really doing what it needs to survive and. I think it's especially important because I feel like there's something in our culture where I feel like if there is a lack of sensation or numbness, especially in sexuality, people wanna go harder or faster or, and it's the opposite that's needed. Just as you're saying. There needs to be a safe space for listening and just being with and meeting the tissues with the safe space. I, I have a motto in my company, which is less is more and slow is the fastest way. That's actually my motto, and that's what I work after. Love it. And like I said, slow is really the fastest way because it's always only in the beginning. We have to be slow because by being slow, by being compassionate and patient and loving and just inviting and accepting the body for what, where it is and what it is at this moment. That builds trust. And when the body starts trusting, then suddenly the body starts pulling me and saying, Hey, let's go to this edge here and jump together. 'cause I trust you. But as long as the body is not trusting it, it'll be me pushing if I'm, using the pushy type while the body's constantly trying to put in the brake because oh, not too fast. So by being slow you actually get this trust built. And the trust is not just between a client's body and me, it's actually also between the client's body and the client, her or himself. Because often our bodies don't even trust ourselves because we have overstepped our boundaries again and again. The body has been giving us sickness, Hey, don't do this. Oh, I don't like that. And we just move on with it. So when we finally start to enter a healing path, doing the right thing. I think I understand why a body is a little can I trust in that, because normally, every time I give you half a finger, you rip my whole hand with you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause here and watch you and see if it's, if you really have that patience that you're displaying right now, is it true? So the body often do the same with the clients, need to almost rebuild the inner trust as well. Absolutely. Of, you are listening now you are seeing me, you are seeing my limitations, my boundaries, my borders and also my capacity because that's us also often, no, I can't do this, I can't do that. My body can't do that. And then you can work with a client. Suddenly they realize what a magnificent being that body is and all the things their body could, that they never thought they would be able to experience. So it's also this journey of trust. I think that really sums it up really nicely. It is a journey of trust with the self. It is re reestablishing trust for the body, to trust the owner of the body. Suzanne, to wrap things up, is there a a somatic exercise you can share that can invite our listeners to explore a deeper connection with their own embodied sexuality? My, my suggestion right there, here would actually be the one where we switch between the direct and the indirect root of pleasure. Is it, how sensitive is my body, actually, because most people are aware their hands are sensitive, but then they, think that this was my body feeling and actually it was just still their finger feeling their body. So it could be placing the hands on the genitals somewhere maybe with a little pressure with the fingertips on certain points, and then use the fingers to really feel the tissue, and the fingers can be, putting a little sort of pressure that releases and gives in to say, okay, what does this tissue feel like? So all the attention is now in the fingertips exploring the tissue. Do that for a few minutes, get a good sense of what you're feeling. And then switch inward. Like really put your attention inside, down through your heart, connect with your heart, move through your belly into your inside of your pelvis genital area, still having the hand connect, but now have the body feel what it feels like when the fingers touch. So you should have the same feeling, like if it was a stranger's hand, you were feeling. So now you disconnect from the hands, from the outside and inside and play with this switching, because this switching is really important, especially if we wanna increase our sexual pleasure, sexual experience. Because if you cannot have internal experience it's not really gonna give you much. So you need to awaken this side of you. Yeah, I feel like this is also a way to give agency to the tissues of the genitalia so that they have a sense of ownership of what they want to, with what they wanna feel and touch as well, rather than just being on the receiving end. I would love to add a thing to it, and if the ones doing this chooses to move the fingers around a bit, then I would invite to really notice where is my sensitivity different. So that they start realizing, oh, this part feels everything. This part just next to actually didn't feel as much so that we, they start to build this inward awareness of what is my level of sensitivity? Where am I maybe hypersensitive, where is there pain? Where is there numbness or simply just, eh, a little boring, but I do feel it. And where am I? I know my finger is touching something, but from the inside I actually can't feel my finger because that's also when you do the internal, you might notice with your finger, I'm touching something, but when you're trying to feel the finger, you're like, the inside can't feel the finger. Then you just found the numbness area. Yes. Yes. Or you notice I can feel the finger. I cannot save the finger is on my perineum or in my joint where you can't locate it because that's also, then you're also partly numb because you cannot, you don't have clear sense of where you're being touched. That sounds wonderful. So Suzanne thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your wisdom and really for the work that you are doing in the world. The Gaia method offers, retreats really all over the world. You can find the work of Suzanne and Adam, her beloved@thegaiamethod.com. That's the dash gaia g aia a method.com. And I'll have that in the show notes as well. And Suzanne, you've been offering virtual. Guided self disarming for women? Yes. I have a closed Facebook group for women only, so men is not allowed in there. And there are women from all over the world by now in this group. Where I normally will post upcoming dates for when I will offer these guided online sessions. And the way they are charged is that it's on donation basis, so anyone can attend no matter the size of their wallet. That's great. Yeah. That's so wonderful. Thanks again, Suzanne. It's good to see you. It's always great to see you, and I look forward to seeing you in person sometime, whenever we get a chance soon. Yeah. Thank you. It's been a pleasure being here. Notice how this exploration with Suzanne is landing in your body. And whether your body may be inviting a deeper exploration of any stories, it may be ready and wanting to share with you Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) *Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment.* Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Genital De-armoring, Podcasts on Pain, Scar Tissue & Recovery **Tags:** embodied sexuality, Inspiration, midwifery, Pleasure Practices, postpardum, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sacred Sexuality, sexual trauma recovery --- ### [Hormone Balance, Jing Energy & Sexual Vitality – Kris Gonzalez](https://rahichun.com/podcast/hormone-balance-jing-chinese-medicine/) **Published:** March 3, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we live in harmony with the natural rhythms of our body for activity and restoration, within each day and across the 7-year natural cycles of our lifetime? Kris Gonzalez, Founder of The Way of Yin, shares the TCM perspective of how to cultivate and nourish our precious Jing Qi Essence and when to channel it into vital activity, how one's vaginal ecology is a reflection of their overall health, and the Three Golden Opportunities for menstruators - all of which influence the vitality and enjoyment of our sexual health and energy. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Hormone Balance, Jing Energy & Sexual Vitality **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## *In This Episode* We explore hormone balance through Chinese medicine, including Jing energy and its role in libido, vitality, and sexual health with Kris Gonzalez, OCM, LAc. You’ll learn how to support long-term sexual energy and well-being. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun") [TheWayofYin.com](http://www.thewayofyin.com/) [courses.thewayofyin.com](http://courses.thewayofyin.com/) Instagram @thewayofyin *Today’s Guest:* **Kris Gonzalez** is a Licensed Acupuncturist, Herbalist, 養生 yǎng shēng enthusiast and founder of The Way of Yin, a lifestyle education company dedicated entirely to bridging the wellness gap in reproductive health by leaning in on timeless wisdoms. Drawing on her deep teachings of Chinese Medicine, The 5 Elements/Phases, Herbalism and Longevity Medicine, she’s created a series of courses to meet you on your healing journey. She founded The Way of Yin to help us to reconnect to a more holistic way of viewing our health; one that’s grounded in our relationships to self, community & nature. ## *What You’ll Learn About Hormone Balance, Jing & Sexual Energy* $ “So if menstruators learn from an early age that this is your ‘Heavenly Water’… and it’s precious, and it’s a vital sign. It’s a key into how your health is doing…” $ How attuning to health holistically after a health challenge as a teen, transformed an inner capacity to heal. $ How feeling into the medicine of human emotions transforms our Qi. $ How one’s vaginal ecology is a reflection of their overall health and ecology, and reflects TCM’s holistic approach to womb health. $ How vital it is to both maintain our active lifestyle and take care of restoring our kidneys during the hormonal changes occurring at the 7-yr cycle change of our early 40’s. $ How the body communicates via mood changes, temperature changes and discomfort signaling that something needs to change $ How to navigate hormonal changes during peri-menopause, and whether lifestyle changes, herbs and acupuncture are needed to support these shifts depends on how we show up at the door. $ The Three Golden Opportunities to honor Jing Essence for menstruators: Menstruation, Postpartum, and Peri-menopause. ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps. on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [What roles hormones, libido, and aging play in your evolving sexual wholeness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/menopause-andropause-libido-hormones/) [How vaginal steaming can transform pelvic healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/vaginal-steaming-hormones-healing/) [How pleasure is medicine and can transform pelvic restoration ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [How intimacy after 60 can fulfill your lifelong passion](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/)s ## Go Deeper Into This Work: The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's episode, we explore what it means to live a Jing centered life, honoring our life's chi essence from a TCM, traditional Chinese medicine lens with Chris Gonzalez. What are the three golden opportunities for menstruated and how can we attune to the natural cycles and rhythms within each day and across a lifetime to live in harmony with the nature of our nature and of our environment. I am really happy and thrilled to be inviting Chris Gonzalez to the podcast today. Chris is a radiant, shining light on our planet. She's also a licensed acupuncturist, a board certified herbalist, a guide in the practice of Nourishing life, yang Chang. And a healer leader from the Institute of Integral Qigong and Tai Chi. And why I invited her to the podcast is she's a guide of a body of work nourishing and supporting clients, students and audiences called The Way of Yin, and it's the way of yin.com. It focuses on a graceful integration of our natural biological rhythms in the cycles of life via A TCM lens. Chris, thank you so much for being here. It's wonderful to see you as always, Rahi. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm happy, really happy to be here. Oh, thanks. So Chris I wanted to start I know some pieces of your background regarding your journey. Like I you've written and spoken about your grandmother and her influence on you. But I would love to hear. What have been the pivotal influences and experiences that have shaped and inspired your journey that has become this, this birthing of the way of yin. I love that birthing of the way of yen. So with birthing, of course there's has to be this gestation period, right? So yeah, what is my story? I guess it, it has to start with my ancestors, of course. I think there's like this really visceral connection towards herbs and natural medicine. My mother's from South Korea and so of course South Korea and China heavily each other. And so I grew up with. My senses being really enriched by my environment. So herbs, cooking in the kitchen, were always like massaging each other. Yeah. And then, so I don't think early on I really knew. I wanna be an acupuncturist. I wanna be an herbalist. It really did come from almost life experience. I had a really major health challenge when I was 13. I was hospitalized. I got diagnosed with an autoimmune condition. Coming outta surgery, the doctors wanted to put me on. Like the whole gamut of medications. And my mom was like, no, thank you. And we just went about it within a more holistic lens. And so knock on wood, I've never had surgery since 13. And I think it, it really was a pivotal point where, I started to build this relationship with myself of this inner capacity to heal. As long as I leaned into the wisdom of my body, leaned into the wisdom of cycles and rhythms, and the more that I resisted that the more my body would communicate with me and ask. To be with it. So when times of str major stress in my life happened, or some turmoil or deep grief or sadness I always felt this point in which my body was like calling me back to, to sink into rhythms again in order to heal. And yeah. So then probably in my early twenties, I. I felt the call the kind of need to explore I guess my lineage a bit deeper. How did my ancestors learn to heal themselves? And I always found that when I reached these points of major stress and there was the decision like, should I go the western route or should I not? I was always called to. To maybe sit with sit with that decision a little bit longer and see more wisdom inside and the more drastic measures that might be a little bit more immediate in relief. But would have to, consequences to that for the rest of my life versus seeking wisdom from within and my lineage. And it might take a lot longer to do that, but it would. Meet my body and not be so jarring to my system and it would have more longevity to it. Yeah, so I think my personal kind of healing journey, which is still continuing till this day 'cause we're always healing layers upon layers throughout our lifetime. Yeah, I think those kind of things led me. The direction and really helping individuals learn about their own healing capacity that just lives right within them. Wow, Chris. So it, it sounds like from a very young age or teenage years, after that health crisis it really, guided you to develop this intimate relationship of listening to your body's natural rhythms and its wisdom rather than relying on outside sources. And even in your decision making, it sounds like you really sit with your body and listen for what its truth is. Absolutely. Yeah. And in and out conversation because there's always this questioning and being that young you do seek outwards a lot for validation. Is this right? Is this not right? And that struggle happened for many years. But I just always found that emotions and. How my body was handling stress, any kind of stress. 'cause I'm very permeable. I come to find out I feel a lot from not only myself, but from the world and my, my family, my community. And so I, I feel like I've learned about myself and my permeable type nature and have learned to start building healthy boundaries and really listening into my body and learning about natural circadian rhythms and andrian rhythms for those of us that menstruate. In all of those things. Those things we can talk about it further if you want. I'm fascinated because I'm guessing along your journey of studying traditional Chinese medicine and, really the natural cycles and rhythms of our existence that coincided and complimented and I'm guessing it just made so much sense given your practice of listening to the organic rhythm of your body to begin with. So it's like how can we nourish and support that natural? Yeah. And I think as humans, and maybe even on a cultural level, we're almost taught to not trust those inner knowings and. I always pushed through, pushed the limits and not lean into the times of those negative type things of like rest and restoration or. Anything other than complete joy or happiness, sinking into the medicine of grief and anger and fear and all those kinds of negative emotions that we're not supposed to show or reveal. But it's very human. Yeah. Or even feel in some instances. I think the. I think we're the structure of our society is going at such a pace that sometimes we don't even allow ourselves to feel what our bodies are clearly asking us to feel and asking us to experience. Yeah. And that, that's one thing that I love about the medicine is that it acknowledges all of those parts of us. It acknowledges that our feelings and emotions have a direct effect on. The movement of chi, the movement of our energy. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So one of the things that really struck me about the so Chris was also a teacher of mine in her online course called the Jade gate for Vaginally Ecology. And what struck me was exactly that, how, obviously TCM takes a holistic. Point of view to our wellbeing, including our emotions, stress levels, our diet our environmental factors, relationship to the womb, all of those things. But, it really, the what, the way you underscore how our vaginal ecology is a reflection of one's overall health and one's overall ecology. It's almost like this sacred. I don't know, it's like a sacred portal or a sacred map to identifying where else in your life there's an imbalance. Can you speak to how that is? How, it's, it blows me away how that is the case. Yeah. So I think another really amazing thing about the medicine is how it speaks to just how everything is so connected through micro and macrocosms. So in itself, acupuncture is just like this whole huge mirror system of how points on your body actually access and reflect organs in your body, and also emotions and different kind of spirits that exist within your body. Yeah. And so when we talk about, your vaginal ecology being connected to your entire ecology. I think what I really wanted to emphasize is that it's so different from the paradigm that just separates everything and talks about things in total isolation as if they function in a sort of a vacuum and it doesn't. So just the lining itself, your whole mucosal lining is a connected system. Your vaginal environment has a mucosal lining, your intestinal tract, your urinary tract all the way up to your nasal cavities and even your mouth. And so the idea that these are not connected at all is, I think that's what's silly to me to think that it's not connected. Yeah. Yeah. So I like to explain to individuals. To view their bodies as like this entire ecosystem. Like you are literally an ecosystem that interacts with many different ecosystems and so your vaginal ecology is. This almost entryway, as you explained it, a portal just like our mouths, our nasal passages, our vaginal environment, and also our digestive environment. They're almost like these ways, into the rest of the ecosystem. And so there's like an exiting and an entering. It's a gate. It's the jade gate and, yeah. And so the reason that's important is because when there's a gate, there's an opening to allow things to release. And there's a receiving to allow things to be received into the entire ecosystem or out of the entire ecosystem. So it's a way to cleanse and clear, but it's also a way to receive and cultivate. Yeah. Yeah. And something else that struck me about what I learned in that course was, things that I think we all don't really think about as affecting our vaginal ecology. Like excessive use of antibiotics, certainly hormone hormone contraceptions even, like thong use or feminine products at the drugstore. They all affect the, the bacterial environment? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And so this is one area that I get confused on with modern medicine is that they say that things are not connected, but written in the warnings of antibiotics is oh, you might get a yeast infection. So that's like admitting that there's some type of, effect or connection there that when you take an antibiotic. It will affect your, you're not your whole body ecology, but also your vaginal ecology at the same time. Yeah. Not to mention your gut health, which affects your immune system so that if there is something going on infection wise it's gonna, it's gonna compromise that as well. Chris, I wanna, I, speaking of how everything's interconnected the your online you offer a free online course on the yin and yang of hormones and it sounds like Yeah. Which is a great course and such a generous offering. It sounds like the number one culprit or issue that you see amongst clients affecting their hormonal balance is the effect of stress. And I. I I wonder if it's an epidemic in our society where you know as we move into kind of that next seven year cycle at 42, or even at 30, around 42, 43 I feel like our society rewards successful career. Whether it's corporate America or, that's when a lot of people are getting into positions of huge responsibility and yet. It's when our kidneys really need replenishing and restoration. Can you speak to how listeners can maintain their active lifestyles, but also take care of these hormonal changes that are the natural rhythms of our bodies and as they change, especially around the early forties. Yeah, absolutely. This is like my I'm, I've been really drawn to teaching around this area that we're talking about right now, because as you say, we do live in a culture that does not. Recognize the cyclical nature. It's very linear. And so I think what has happened is through the fight of equality, we've almost. Put ourselves into these linear boxes and have almost denied or repressed our actual cyclical nature. We go through monthly cycles and it's undeniable. It happens. And you can recognize it. We bleed monthly. We ovulate monthly and so there are really clear indications. That our body calls for times of activity and productivity, but also times of deep rest and restoration. And so I think it's it's almost like we could do both, but how can we almost nurture and build a culture in society that honors the cyclical body? There's a way to be productive and also nurturing at the same time when we build in structures for ourselves to recognize the times that our bodies are strong and need activity and thrive on being a little bit more extroverted and out in the world. But also recognize that when we are bleeding or nearing our bleed, our bodies are literally going through a hormonal drop. But we're taught to push through that. We're taught to ignore that, to hide that. Not to say you have to stop everything but there's like this shift that happens to where your body is calling for a bit more. Yin time to, prioritize things of course to, function through your days that you're bleeding, but to also just deeply, replenish the actual loss. This is Jing loss and we haven't touched on that yet, but Jing is your essence. It's almost like your reserves, your savings account towards longevity. And for those of us that bleed. We have these key opportunities to really wreak havoc on our constitutions or enhance our vitality. And so when we recognize that we are cyclical beings, this is within our nature, within our physiology and anatomy, we don't have to pick either or we can work with both. We can exist in, this kind of linear space but also lean into the wisdom of our bodies and just make little accommodations to ensure that we're not depleting our gene, we're not pulling from our savings account because that's the stuff that we're gonna live on for the rest of our life. Yeah, but we don't, we're not taught that, we're just taught like you have endless amounts of energy. Just go and push through and use it all now. And it's your parents' wisdom when they say to save money, for the future. It's the same thing. Yeah. So then that if one is not attuned to the natural rhythms of when their body is asking for and seeking restoration, rather than, forcing deadlines and pushing through it, there's gonna be that estrogen dominance as the progesterone really gets compromised. Yeah. So your body is the best communicator. It will give you signs. It will just go along its way because its way is to cycle through. But if we're resisting that your body will give you signs. It'll let you know through discomfort stagnation. Mood changes temperature changes it'll let you know for sure. Yeah. So I, I feel like stress is unavoidable. Like everybody is always gonna have stress in their lives. It's really about how you dance with it and how your body, handles it. Or sure. Sure. So again, really listening to the wisdom of the body and listening for what it needs and any kind of signs of, physical pain, just, cramp, like whatever the pain signs are, it's the body communicating, that it needs something, that it needs something to change really. Chris, I have a question and that is when it comes to perimenopause and menopause and the body stops producing the estrogen and progesterone with the cycle changing is it always ne do you always advise does that always need to be supplemented by? Outside sources like herbs or is there actually enough of a reserve and it's a matter of nourishing and facilitating that reserve to make sure that there's for example, proper lubrication and healthy tissue vibrancy. Yeah. So I think with this question, it really depends on if a person needs the intervention of herbs and herbal allies or lifestyle changes or nutritional, I guess assistance or catering of nutrition. It really depends on how you show up to the door of perimenopause and I. You don't need those things. Ideally you kind of cycle through these life cycles with, of course you're gonna feel different because you're actually shifting wheels. You're shedding the old and rebirthing into a new cycle. There are gonna be shifts and changes. It's not gonna be like, like a magic, right? I think with each lifecycle it is like this rite of passage because parts of you die and you come into this new part of your life. Renewed. So you don't necessarily need the aid of herbs, you don't need the aid of, acupuncture and all these kind of outside things. I think what you actually need is just an understanding in a context of what's actually happening. So that if you possibly want to seek some allies, you could do that to help yourself unravel through. But I don't think that it's necessary if you really truly understand the context of what's actually happening. So when you come through the doors of perimenopause and then eventually into menopause, essentially what your body is doing is. It's switching gears into. More reservation because reproduction is not a sustainable state. If we produced all the way into our sixties and seventies, that is so much gene loss. And so essentially when we shift wheels into perimenopause and menopause, that's our, the way of our body shifting into more longevity. It's actually trying to extend our life, even though in the midst of it, if. Feels like it's not doing that. Oh no, I'm aging faster, or whatever it is. But that's the unraveling part. That's the just imagine the immense amount of alchemy needed for something to go from one state to the next. Reproduction to non reproductive. That's huge. Those are two really different things, and so perimenopause is just that journey. Of those small shifts and changes, and we realize that our ovaries are slowing down a bit. It's not gonna be this, the forever source of our chi and blood. So it's just slowing down a bit. And the dependence will come from your kidneys, your gene, your, savings account. It kind of shifts wheels on where, it depends where the body depends on where the energy is coming from. So for a long time, many years, it's coming from the ovaries and our uterus or womb. But those are not inert. Once we go into perimenopause or menopause our bodies are not gonna use these organs for, and anding and blood production, but they do hold a lot of energy. So this is where we can further cultivate. Honing into these kind of root organs, so they're not like never functional anymore. They're there for a reason. Yeah, I'm going off on a little No, that's great. That's great because, like in concert with what you're sharing, we can cultivate that natural. Reserve within by these be, particularly, I think we've both been exposed to these ancient DAO practices like self breast massage, like the jade egg practice. Yes. Which all, serve to to nourish and circulate that Jin Chi. Absolutely. So that we don't, so that we can show up at the door and have ample reserve or start to really, nourish those reserves. And and I should say for men, there are great practices like testic, self testicular massage and the microcosmic orbit and scrotal stretch. Absolutely. Just to make sure that the energy is vibrant and that the kidneys are not depleted, but quite the contrary. You're always yes. You're always, there's always an attention to the altar of your jing. Yeah. Living a jing centered life. Living a jing centered life. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. Yeah, I feel if we learned from that kind of context in that like how precious it actually is, then we'll do you know everything to protect it. And to nourish it and reserve it. So if Menstruated learn from an early age that this is your heavenly water, your menstrual blood is your heavenly water, and it's precious and it's a vital sign, it's a key into how your health is doing. And so if there are pockets of times where you're bleeding heavily for. Weeks on end and your doctor is saying, oh, don't worry about it. This is your Jing. So seek out the help of an herbalist or an acupuncturist because they're gonna, they're gonna know and see that context of no, we need to actually see if we can stem that flow because this is your jing. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's our essence. So this brings me to a question where I'm curious how. You what your experience has been in working with Western OBGYNs and where there, because I feel like, I've had clients who've had, excessive bleeding and their doctors will recommend a hysterectomy when we know it can be, it is your jig essence and we know these vital reproductive organs on, on so many levels provide a spiritual presence in our bodies. And yeah. Where in your experience with working with Western doctors, where have there been complimentary experiences for the client and where have there been like misalignments? Yeah I really honor modern medicine for emergency and for really kinda life and death type situations. So I. Because that's what it's amazing at. So I honor yes. Yes. Western and modern medicine for. That amazing ability. I think where it's not so complimentary is when individuals are seeking more preventative. Like how can I actually approach my health in a more preventative and involved way? And I think that's where possibly western medicine and or modern medicine. Lax they're a very kind of reactionary type of modality where I think TCM and a lot of holistic modalities are about preventing those catastrophic types of things from happening in the first place. Yeah. And, yeah, I totally hear that. And at the same time, Chris, I feel just from vaginal steaming, I've seen different health situations be, far along in their imbalance and be really restored naturally through steaming, yes. And there's such, it's a humble practice. It's such a humble, simple, effective, and definitely cost effective practice. It's three bucks of steam. Yeah. And yeah, I was just, I was I was interviewing Kelly the other day and she was sharing how, like essentially OBGYNs cannot advocate or approve or encourage a practice that's not within their medical realm of what they learn because their liability concerns. And absolutely. I'm thinking 30 years ago, acupuncture was probably seen in a different light than how it's accepted now. And yeah, I'm, you've probably seen a shift in, I'm guessing in the years that you've been practicing from Western doctors and accepting and, it's un it's like such verifiable evidence. Like you can't deny the benefits of TCM and acupuncture and the powerful, effective herbs in restoring the body's balance. Yeah. I feel like there is a shift happening because the people are asking for more. They're asking for more education, really. I think there's a huge gap in how we actually approach our wellness. How can we be healthy? And I think, their education doesn't really dive into to that, to lifestyle, to nutrition. I read this crazy paper about how a gynecologist said that nutrition has nothing to do with hormones. Like those two things don't even add up together. And that boggles my mind. How can, like the food, the information you're feeding into your body, have nothing to do with hormones. And so that's like what you're essentially working against because many people trust their doctors. Many people trust research, modern research. And so with the vaginal steaming, if it's not research, they can't recommend it. Even though it's safe and cost effective and effective. Yeah, so I think we I think the people are, there's so many seekers because I think we've reached a point to where lots of individuals can actually tell their stories and how modern medicine has failed them because they're looking to modern medicine. To treat conditions that could have been prevented beforehand. And so modern medicine is more reactive. They're like I could put you on this drug that may or may not work. I can prescribe you birth control pills, which is not really for regulating your cycles. It's to control birth for a whole blanket of kind of conditions that birth control pills are not really for. And so I think their approaches are very limited in what they research as far as like reaction. To somebody's health crisis versus taking a step back or even a global view on a person. How's your mental health? How are you doing emotionally? How is your socioeconomic state? Do you have support? All of these things matter in a person's health and wellbeing. But they're not asking these questions. Yeah. And all of those things are going to affect one's womb health, yes. How their womb feels and how their embodiment of their womb, how they're connected to their womb. Yeah. So the womb in itself is a container it holds, and this is one place in a female body that things can get stagnant and stuck from pent up emotions to just everyday stresses. Blockages in the body. Somehow collect in places that are collectors or some place of holding, and the womb is a place of holding. Yeah. This podcast is all about ways of restoring, reclaiming and realizing our natural sexual health and wellbeing. And I feel like just what you what you spoke to also reflects how our sexual health is an indicator of our overall health. Given that the womb does hold and is affected by our emotional wellbeing, our psychological wellbeing, our, how safe we feel, economic socioeconomically, and, yeah, it's all gonna affect our embodiment and the vibrancy, yeah. Both on a jing level and on a pleasure level. Absolutely. Yeah. I like to talk about how we're not taught this, but there's like this direct channel from the heart to the womb. It's the heart womb connection and the heart is, the place where our spirit lives. Our spirit lives in the blood, and then our heart is, part of our circulatory system. So then that spirit gets, circulated everywhere, even beyond ourselves. And there is a direct meridian that connects the heart to the womb. And there's many kind of ancient passages and, chinese health culture texts where they talk about, emotions or things that affect the heart will affect the wombs. So there's all kinds of passages about, somebody's heart breaks and their menstruation stops, or they'll, have this fright and then bleed heavily or just, those types of things where they actually recognize the connection between our emotional, mental, spiritual wellbeing. Yeah, direct connection. Yeah. Chris, the three Golden Opportunities, is that an online course or is that a Yeah it's a blog post actually. So it talks about uhhuh as menstruated, how we have these three key opportunities, the golden opportunities to really pay attention to our gym. So it's of course menstruation because we lose a little bit of jing every single month during our menstruating years. And postpartum is actually one of our greatest Jing losses. And so that's why they really emphasize, or we really emphasize. The deep care that goes into postpartum care, after birth. And they call it sitting moon. Yeah. And Ayurvedic recognizes Aerobed medicine recognizes it too. It's 42 days of rest and restoration for 42 years. So they recognize that. The more that you care for mothers after birth for deep healing and replenishment. It has lifetime effects on that. Yeah. And then perimenopause being the third golden opportunity. Yeah. I love how it's phrased as golden opportunities because they are, they're like windows of just incredible your choices during these windows will affect your health the rest of your life. And so they really are golden opportunities to, yeah, make sure that your jing is restored, replenished, and so your savings account, as you say, will be full for the rest of your life. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. It's always a pleasure to see you. It's always just a delight to know that you are on our planet doing what you're doing and being who you are. Thank you so much. Thank you for the invitation. That just beautiful conversation and the important conversation is so important. How is the Ching, the chi essence feeling in your body right now as you tune into your Jing essence? Is there a place on your body that your hands feel called to touch, support, and nourish? And when you do notice how this feels for your body to receive and replenish itself with your hands, your attention, and your heart. In our next episode, we explore a Daoist perspective to reproductive health and ways to restore stagnant chi and blood flow with k Tasini Bunum, founder of the LOI Crow, traditional Thai massage Center, and one of the world's most experienced practitioners and teachers in the Daoist Art. Of Noad. Cari, also called Cari Naison Inner Genital Organ Massage. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Hormones, Energy & Regulation, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** hormones, Kris Gonzalez, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexual Health, Traditional Chinese Medicine --- ### [Childhood Imprints & Sexuality: Healing Early Trauma Patterns - Kimberly & Nina](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints/) **Published:** July 4, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we release unhealthy coupling with sexual pleasure from the body’s tissues and cellular memory, and re-condition healthy and empowering pleasure patterns? Today, we hear from two special guests, Kimberly and Nina, who share their experiences of how sexual pleasure was coupled with desired attention, and with parental shame, during childhood, how these affected their sexual embodiment and behaviors into adulthood, and how they each released and replaced these with new empowering associations and the resulting changes in their lives. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Childhood Imprints & Sexuality: Healing Early Trauma Patterns **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how early childhood experiences shape adult sexuality, intimacy patterns, and nervous system responses. You’ll learn how these imprints live in the body—and how they can be transformed. About our Guests: Today’s special guests, Kimberly and Nina, both former clients, share in great detail the experiences of their early sexual imprints, how these influenced their teen and adult intimacy patterns, and what they feel were the significant keys for releasing these from their tissues and cellular memory. Kimberly, a healer with a deep understanding of neuroscience and somatic sexology, shares her insights from the perspective of a child being pleasured by her beloved baby-sitter, and its affects on her embodiment and later sexual behavior and patterns. Nina shares the association of her innocent self-pleasuring at age 5 with the hostile response by her beloved father, and how this image and experience followed her into adulthood, affecting her sexual embodiment and pleasure. Both also share their processes for releasing these past patterns and what they each feel allowed for a re-patterning of their healthy sexual nature with pleasure, freedom and goodness. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/foundation.jpg "foundation | Rahi Chun") [Medium.com Article by Kimberly detailing her 4 sessions.](https://medium.com/the-establishment/the-radical-healing-power-of-somatic-sexual-wholeness-therapy-ef582693f088) For Spiritual Alchemy Sessions, contact Kimberly at . [NeuroAffectiveTouch.com](https://neuroaffectivetouch.com/) [SexologicalBodyworkers.org](https://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/ "https://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/") ## What You’ll Learn About Childhood Trauma & Adult Sexual Patterns $ “I was being pinpointed for something special. So that was where the confusion came in is that I was feeling pleasure and love and adoration and attention from somebody which wasn’t appropriate. …” – Kimberly $ How the somatic wiring of desired attention with sexual pleasure can lead to teen-age and adult sexual engagement absent of a courtship phase. $ How the overwhelm of sexual voltage a child experiences from an older abuser can lead to the nervous system seeking out similar overwhelming experiences, especially when this involved associations with pleasure and love. $ How Kimberly’s conscious choice of doing the inner work of cultivating self-intimacy manifested an outer relationship of true intimacy, and how the safety and resource of this real intimacy in turn, deepened her own self intimacy with herself in her self-pleasure. $ How challenging it can be for survivors of abuse to feel safe to receive, and yet how doing so in a consensual setting can lead to integrating uncomfortable embodied emotions of past traumas for its alchemy and transformation. $ “When I think back, I still had his angry look… it was somehow in my body. And when, during the session he left,… I allowed myself to have pleasure without this angry look in my mind….” – Nina $ How a childhood association of sexual pleasure with the shame and anger of her beloved Father, influenced Nina’s disconnection from feeling embodied sexuality into her adult years. $ How re-imprinting a masculine authority figure with permission, acceptance and a celebration of sexuality can replace past associations with a paternal figure. $ How past associations of sexual pleasure wired with a parent’s disapproval can couple sadness with orgasm, and how releasing this from the body can lead to orgasms associated with pleasure, goodness and wholeness. ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [How healing sexual trauma and rebuilding self-intimacy transforms relational pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [The keys and principles for reclaiming pleasure after sexual trauma ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) [The ways in which trauma lives in the body ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) [How healing childhood sexual imprints transforms our adult intimacy patterns](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Early sexual arousal and pleasure imprints from childhood can create powerful adult intimacy patterns and behaviors regardless of how healthy or unhealthy they may be. How can we release unhealthy coupling with sexual pleasure from the body's tissues and cellular memory and recondition healthy, expansive, and empowering pleasure patterns. Today's episode invites two very special guests, Kimberly and Nina, who share generously and courageously their experiences. Of having childhood sexual pleasure wired with unhealthy associations, how this coupling affected their teen and adult intimacy patterns, and how these were uncoupled and re imprinted with new, healthy and empowering associations. Kimberly shares how as a child receiving attention, which came in the form of sexual engagement by a babysitter, created an association between desired attention and sexual interaction, and how this affected her intimacy patterns into adulthood. A healer herself with great insights into the neuroscience of sexuality. She helps us understand her perspective as a child of having sexual interactions with her babysitter and the journey she's taken to release these past patterns from the tissues of her body, resulting in the freedom to feel new, expansive pleasures, sensations, and associations. I'd love to start by asking you about your childhood experiences and what you made sense of those experiences as a child. Because I think as adults we're always super imposing or interpreting what that might be or must be like for a child, but a child's sense of. Awareness and their place in the world is so different than, later on. And I'm wondering if you go back to those experiences, how did you make sense of those early experiences? That's a really loaded question, and it's something that I've been thinking about. For many years, because as you just said, we do think about things in retrospect when we have a certain amount of knowledge and information about it in later years. But when I've gone back to that pure place of who I was as a five-year-old child, which was the age when I remember, I first remember abuse, I can tell you a couple things. One thing is that I was just a completely innocent. Being shown something much like you would be shown, eat your Brussels sprouts or go to bed on time, or this is what we do on Sundays. I had a babysitter who was a female who clearly I know now had abuse in her life and she chose to act out abuse on my sister and I. And she was a very trusted babysitter, someone who we actually looked up to. So when I think about the pure aspects of the abuse, unfettered by what I know as an adult, I look back at. Feeling loved by somebody. Feeling like I was being paid attention to, especially by somebody. By somebody that I trusted and adored and was a role model and who I actually felt when she lavished attention on me. I was being. Pinpointed for something special. So that was where the confusion came in, is that I was feeling pleasure and love and adoration and attention from somebody, which wasn't appropriate, but I did not know that at the time. So I was just feeling the feelings. And so I learned this sort of place where I had pleasure and attention. Which later I would find out was not appropriate. But in that moment as a child, at the time, it was hitting the pleasure points of me that I wasn't getting from my mother. Or I wasn't getting from the normal foundation that. Children are supposed to get to feel safe and loved and secure. So I started to equate the feelings I had with this babysitter with what I think other people would consider to be love. Yeah. Kimberly, what you're sharing I think is. So profound and real and needs to be underscored that all children it sounds like in your situation there was a, like an emotional pleasure that was associated with the physical interactions with this authority figure that was trusted and loved by you, your sister, and I'm guessing your caretakers as well. And so it was seen as lavishness, as loving attention, as love, really. Yeah we, my sister was involved too, and we actually came to later discuss this and think about it. And the way that, that we were positioned in the abuse, obviously from the perpetrator's view was, I'm just doing this because this is what I've been taught. From our perspective, it was, this is someone lavishing love and adoration on us. And making us feel pleasurable too. So the first dose of feeling pleasurable that we got was in this aspect. And when you don't know if it's wrong or not, you just feel pleasure and you're like, oh, this is pleasure. Problems come later when you realize that's not supposed to be the pleasure you were feeling at the time. And that's when all of the stuff starts. But at the time, we just felt like we were being involved in this game with this person we loved and adored. And so we didn't know there was anything wrong with it. We actually were pretty in touch with our own pleasure and our body at a very young age. We had no idea that it was wrong. Until you get the mental notion of what's really going on, you don't have any kind of judgment related to it. So it was very much attached to our only sense of being loved in a. Family and in an environment where we didn't really get that much because our parents were completely distracted by their own neurosis. That's also an important point to underscore, is that as children, when our parents are caretakers, are very preoccupied or feel unavailable physically and or emotionally, the innocence of children is gonna long and yearn for. That kind of quality attention that we're all wanting as children and when it's given by someone who is trusted and who is looked up to, it's gonna feel great. I'm curious, Kimberly, was the physical nature of the abuse, was there any kind of force or pain or discomfort involved, or was it pure pleasure? It was as far as I can remember, it was pure pleasure. It was basically. Teaching us to masturbate. And to feel our pleasure within ourselves. And I don't think, obviously that was the goal or the intention. It was just somebody enacting on us. What was enacting on them. But that is the strange situation. And the reason it takes so many years to unravel is that. It was a pure pleasure experience at the time and we didn't know any different. It our trusted babysitter. I'm curious, as you got older, a bigger child or into your teen years, knowing what you know now, how do you see those childhood experiences having affected your sexuality behavior and patterns? I can definitely say, and I mean I've spent 20 years in studies about all of this, but what happened is that normal place that the prefrontal cortex where you get your pleasure and reward systems activated throughout your life and the last decade of neurosciences prove this. We basically all live on a pleasure and reward system. So what that means is. We have a foundation. We feel safe. We know when we do good things, we get rewards. We know when we do bad things, we get punished. That was all screwed up for me because I had parents that were completely checked out and not there, so I didn't get that from them. I got this specific thing from my abuser. Pleasure, reward came from my abuser and I didn't realize until I was probably 12 or 13 years old and was starting to get sexually active and have my own burgeoning feelings of wanting to relate with other people in the universe sexually. That I was a little bit. Off because I didn't realize that intimacy and love was actually something that you cultivated aside from the sexual and essential. When you were in a healthy relationship with someone. So I, my whole life used sex as the way to feel close to somebody. Which is a way to feel close to somebody. I'm not discounting that. But. I used it in place of a normal boundary system where you're assure of yourself, you have a good foundation, you're loved by your mom and father. You have a security base, and then you go forward and experiment from that. I came from, I was already in the experimentation and that's what I equated with love. So when I loved or thought I loved people. Throughout my early life, I always thought it had to do with sex. There was a very strange misconception of what connected to what and how it connected in my body. And so it was a really. Odd experience to grow up and realize that the way that I was in the world was not the way that everybody else was. Yeah. That's really fascinating, isn't it? It's like your body's initial imprint with its sexual engagement was playful and was immediate in that kind of intimate, relational dynamic. And then as a teen. Naturally since that was your initial imprint, that's what you probably carried out as the expected or the desired behavior to express your interest or affection. And what was missing was that innocent courting phase, that kind of writing love letters and holding hands in all of that. There are two things. One, it could, it's definitely that initial imprint and I've also noticed that when there's a. The sexual voltage of an abuser when we're children is of a greater voltage than that of a child. And so there's that kind of imprint also of the system is used to being. Kind of overwhelmed with that voltage and used to that rush of extra voltage. So that's the same voltage that people talk about when they talk about attics or they talk about any kind of imbalance, like where you're reaching out for something to fill something. It's very true for that in the sexual and the sensual sense you're used to. Feeling an intense need for love and getting it from a certain aspect, whether it's workaholism or sex addiction or food or whatever, cigarettes, drugs, alcohol. There's something where if you have a hole in you that hasn't been properly prepared, you're always constantly trying to fill. And the, that sexual hole, because it was so predominant in my early ages, is the thing that I was always constantly trying to fill with something out. And I think that's something that's important for what we're talking about here. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Gbo mate's work with addicts is amazing because it really, he hungry ghost. Yeah. He, his studies have shown, and his specialty is with various forms of addiction, is that sure enough, there is such a high percentage of adult addicts who were abused as children sexually or otherwise. And what you're speaking to Kimberly. Is filling that void, being overwhelmed with that voltage by an adult or someone older who has already gone through their sexual maturation and their sexual voltages at a different level than a child is gonna. Far overwhelm the capacity of the container and vessel of that young being. Yeah. But that's the imprint on the child's nervous system with that coupling with attention or with love. And so that craving or yearning, it's being sought to be satiated by that kind of high overwhelm of voltage. Getting back to your teenage years as you recognized that your pattern was different than your peers, did you ever make the connection that it might have been from your experiences as a child or at that point, was it, did it still not register that there was something wrong about that behavior, that loving behavior from your, what you perceived to be loving behavior from your babysitter? I think I was around 12 years old when I realized that I was molested and that it was not right. And that was because I was entering into the sexual sphere. Granted way too young, but I think probably because of that. But once I actually embarked upon a real relationship with another being that was sexual, it was oh, I'm a different sphere here than they are. They're just an awkward, innocent little being, trying to probe along in their life and figure all this out and be a burgeoning sexual being, which is beautiful and part of life. And here I am jaded and afraid and not trusting and already projecting. It was like, why am I doing that? And then I started to remember things and I actually had conversations with my sister and we had some realizations oh, we were abused. So when I was around 12 years old, when I started being really sexually active with other people, which is really early, I also started to have that parallel notion that this is not normal. And but I, that was probably just the very beginning of my journey of okay, what does this mean? What is it? What is all this about? So it sounds like you were going about life as a teenager, and yet there was an awareness that something was off, and you had your sister to dialogue about that with, since you had the shared experience. But still at that point I was still clueless. It was like, okay, I know I had these things happen to me, and that's part of my narrative of my life, but I don't really quite understand what that means or what that affects. So my behavior. From age 12 to probably age 21 was more of just really a promiscuous person just wanting to feel sex with people because I connotated that with love because that was my babysitter, that was my love source. Absolutely. So it was like, oh, look, I have sex with people, I have love. Yeah. But it never quite actually panned out to be that. But that was the directive I followed. So it sounds like the patterns that you recognize were becoming sexually intimate very quickly and expressing that as your language of love. I'm wondering, looking back now, how do you think the childhood experiences affected your adult sexual behavior and patterns? I think from age 12 to about 38, all of my sexual experiences were like. Trauma based, where it would be like, I would just get together that someone, I would get together with people that were a lot like me. And we would just have the wild weekend of fun and we would just have getting drunk or stoned or just. The lost weekend. That was my MO for sexuality for a very long time because I knew that going into the sexual was going into the abuse and it was a secret place. So I had pockets. So for most of my life I had pockets where I would go allow myself to be my sexual self, whether it was meeting someone online or being with an artistic boyfriend who couldn't commit for more than 24 hours, or, just having fun and just, wrapping the logic in that it was fun, but it really wasn't fun. It was really perpetuating the whole, I can't commit to real intimacy, but I, that, that's what happened to me. I actually was a product of my abuse and I. Met with and got with people that mirrored my product of abuse. So they were either products of abuse themselves or they were living on the same kind of, I'm an artist, a free spirit freestyle thing. It was getting together with people that mirrored my experience rather than getting together with people that. If I actually sat down and thought about it, were my ideal goal, that, that were actually compliments to the real me. And I didn't really find out who that was till really later, because I was still going on that really fast, instant gratification, masturbatory experience. Fantasy, whatever. So that was my world based on what was shown to me. And when I finally. Came out of that, it was like, oh shit. Like I have to step up to the plate too. If I want this higher level of intimacy and love and sexuality, like I need to step up onto the plate too. And that means doing some inner work on me. Yeah. So during this time let's talk about some of the inner work because before you came to me for sessions, I believe that you had actually started, or maybe you had completely made that switch from relying on fantasy to really starting to explore embodiment of your sensations during arousal. Pleasure. So you were already like on that path. Help me understand what helped you make that shift? There was a time there, there was a period in my life when I was like 38, so that was like almost 10 years ago, and I, my daughter was going to college. I realized it was a point in my life where I could reinvent myself and figure out what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And one of the biggest things was being healthy sexually because clearly I knew that was a big problem in my life and I was actually in this place where. I wanted to be healthy sexually so that I could just travel the world and have lots of lovers and do art and do my healings and just be like this very free flowing spirit. And I knew that was someone I always wanted to be, but I actually ended up meeting somebody and. Had an opportunity suddenly to have the most healthy, real present relationship of my life. And it was like, do I wanna do this? And I thought, yeah, I do. It was the first time in my life when I actually realized that the sexual stuff was a little unbalanced. That it was like I've been living so long thinking that this is my way to love. But what this person is actually showing me is that's not the way to love. The way to love is actually partnership. Building a house together and taking trips together and being best friends and the sex stuff is important, but it's something that's been super bastardized in our society. So that was really strange to me. It was like, oh my God, I'm not a sex object. All of a sudden, I'm actually somebody who is being seen as Kimberly. Being s seen as like this beautiful, smart, intelligent woman who's a part of your household and it's, and you want me to give you advice and you love me and it doesn't have anything to do with your penis. And, okay, I have to adjust to this a little bit here. It takes a while, but I'm gonna do it. When I did it, I was like, oh my God, what a beautiful place this is. Holy shit. I'm fucked up. So when I got to that place, I thought, wow, I really need to dive in and see what all those problems are. And it's not that they were even problems because sensuality and sexuality is beautiful, but it was like how to balance that out. Balance and moderation. That's the key. And how to figure out who. Who I was and what I was made because of these certain traumas, and then move on from there. So it was like suddenly I had this desire to be healthy sexually and not just be this person who was whipped through the wind of desire and illusion and also. Giving credit to the fact that sexuality is just such a beautiful and gorgeous holistic part of our lives. So how to reconcile all that and that's the place I was at when I came to see you. So what I'm hearing, Kimberly, is that the safety and security and the, in the intimate connection that your relationship provided. Offered an opportunity to look at the deeper layers of how those childhood wounds had affected your behavior. It's often that we need that sense of resource, that sense of safety either in a relationship or in a place in our lives where we can, where those wounds will either feel safe enough to bubble to the surface, or we feel safe enough within ourselves to intentionally take a look at that. And it also sounds like you wanted to examine like some of the coupling or the wiring that happened with your arousal and pleasure patterns with behaviors or associations that may not have served you or be serving you. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say I was pretty clear around that time that like when I would masturbate or when I would do things like look at porn or, anything else I. Clearly was getting this message that was tied to my neurosis. And I didn't quite understand why. 'cause I don't really have a judgment on porn. I don't really have a judgment on people, utilizing certain things to get off. But the fact that I all of a sudden was thinking those things, it was like, what is this? And I was like maybe because I wanna get a little deeper with myself. Not just like instantly go for the thing that gets me off and it's just like a stress reliever, but like, why am I actually pleasuring myself and what is actually happening in my body and why is that actually a good thing? And. What does that mean and how am I actually intentionally doing that? That was actually a serious thing that I started to think about because for my whole life and ever since I was abused at age five it was called the tickle stuff. I've been masturbating. And it's always been a great thing to do. Who, who wouldn't say that? But I finally realized like. Why I do it when I do it. And it was like, oh, I you started this in me. It was like, oh, if I'm actually like feeling my labia and the wind is blowing and the curtains are open and the bath is waiting for me oh, that's hot. It's not I just gotta do this really quick because this is where I'm at and this is what I'm looking at and this is what I'm used to, and this isn't trained in my brain. You know what it sounds like to me, Kimberly is. The shift in the way you were relating in your new relationship because he loved you for who you are. He loves you for who you are. He's interested in getting to know you intimately, not just going to the sex. It sounds like there's a parallel and reflection between that and your own level of sexual intimacy with yourself. It's like you were interested in getting to know yourself, to getting to know your sensations, to getting to know the vast. Infinite terrains between contact and orgasm and what a beautiful kind of internalization of this outer relationship. Yeah. So for our listeners, Kimberly, actually, she's a writer as well as an artist, and she wrote a beautiful piece in what is now medium.com, chronicling her journey of the four sessions that she received. I feel like your sessions were efficient because you came in really ready and I'm an A student. Yes. You really were, and you had such an awareness of, how your body was responding to the. Release of these wounds and traumas and the shifts that were happening. I'd love to know from you, 'cause I have my own perspective as a practitioner, what do you recall were the key turning points or the most kind of pivotal aspects of receiving those sessions? I can tell you number one right now, no question is the charging breath. Your sessions were the hardest things I've ever had to do, and it was mostly because you were requiring me to be a blank slate of receiving. And people who are abused have a really hard time receiving well. The fact that you give a massage before your sessions is a really important thing, and I don't wanna discount that because it really makes a person relax into a loving space of just really receiving. But the thing that mattered the most to me was when you told me to look into your eyes and breathe into the place that you, your fingers were actually touching on me because when you did that. You were touching a raw nerve that had not been ignited since the original trauma episode, and then all of a sudden you were saying, hi, I see you. Let's breathe into this together here and now, and that was the most important thing that you did for me because instead of letting my mind go into a million different places of why are we here, why is he touching this? Why are we doing this? I actually said, okay, this feels gross and you're pointing on it and you want me to look at you and you want me to deal with this right now. Fuck you, but fine. And I did it and then it was gone, and I don't really have any other explanation aside from that, except that I know that fucking works. Amongst the variety of methods to uncouple unhealthy sexual wiring from the body, a few include disarming body work, somatic recall, to release stored memories from the tissues, completing an interrupted defensive response physically and or verbally that are still held in the body cellular memory, giving voice to unintegrated embodied emotions. And breath work, all of which were employed over Kimberly's four sessions. The charging breath Kimberly refers to is a way of charging energy into numb or dissociated tissues of the body to elicit sensation and feeling again. And by doing so, inviting the emotions that were bypassed in order to survive a past traumatic event into a safe space to be felt. Processed and integrated key to these approaches are an unconditionally safe space, and the ability for the client to be present to their sensations and feelings arising from the body's past traumatic memories in order for them to integrate and release. So it sounds And what I'm sorry. The reason I think that works is what I've been learning about neuroscience lately, where you can talk forever about what happened to you and your brain just thinks it's still happening to you. 'cause you're still talking about it. So your brain is still sending out all those things to your body of how to deal with it. But when I actually let you touch a part of me that really was weird and awkward and vulnerable and then you still looked in my eyes and made me stay present and breathed in me and it diffused it. Yeah. So what you're sharing, Kimberly, I think for listeners, I think there's some points that would be helpful to, to underscore and that is. It's so easy to get distracted. As you were saying, your mind could have gone in a million different directions to avoid the sensations of that yucky, embodied memory of those. Of that abuse of, it could have been the abuse, it could have been experiences that happened as a result of the abuse, but staying connected with a practitioner and breathing as one vessel really gives a support to stay present with the sensations and discharge that stored energy that's held in the tissues of the pelvis. A link to Kimberly's published article in which she describes in great detail the experiences of her four sessions can be found in today's show. Notes. Nina's early sexual imprints and wired associations to pleasure were quite different than Kimberly's as they involved a coupling with shame. Her first memory of her sexuality involved self pleasuring as an innocent five-year-old, only to be met with hostility by an angered father who she loved and loves dearly. As simple as this early experience appears to be emotional imprints from our early experiences of sexuality can create and influence long-term patterns, which for Nina involved a sense of disembodiment and levels of numbness, both intravaginally and externally. I had this this. This idea that my sexual pleasure is just too complicated and too complex, and so in my relationships sexual pleasure, it was always for him. It was never for me because I was, I thought that it's just. Too much to ask. It's just too complicated because I would need so much time and so much tenderness and so much safety and so much connection. It's just impossible to ask. So I always pretended I pretended a lot in my relationships and. And then I would I would lose my sexual desire and it's like a, it was like a vicious cycle actually. And so my relationships broke down and yeah, in 2016, actually when I went into self-healing, it was because of a breakup. So when you say that you were pretending to feel pleasure when you weren't Yes, exactly. I was faking a lot of orgasms and yeah, because I don't know, like it was, I think it was just too hard for me to really be honest. And. Tell my partner what I really wanted. Yeah, making requests or communicating your desires, what your body wanted was sounds was a challenge. So it was easier to focus on his pleasure, it sounds yes, exactly. It was exactly like that, which was not healthy because yeah, after a while I didn't feel connected to my partner anymore, of course. It was not honest. Yeah. Yeah. And the pleasure. It sounds like it was just going one way, yes. Just his needs were being met. Nina, can you share a little bit about your family culture around sexuality? Because I find that all of our. Home cultures as well as our nationality cultures play a role in how embodied we feel sexually, how free we feel sexually. Yes. This is the thing in my case, I didn't have any call it. Big T Trauma. It was in my case more the home culture and different aspects. For example, my parents are immigrants and they had a lot of stuck grief in their nervous system that I took on as a child, like every child does. Sure. And. Also, my parents are from Iran and even though they are super progressive and feminist and everything, I think deep down, they had a lot of cultural issues with sexuality. Like we never talked everything that was. Sensual or sexual or bodily related was just not that important in, in my home. Yeah. And your parents are very progressive. They were activists and you shared with me that they had to flee the country because of their activism, but yet when it comes to I guess the social culture around sexuality, you they were part of the environment that they grew up in. I think it was just in their bones or how they grew up. They, and I think they didn't even realize that it was yeah, how it is affected me. It was just but shame was huge. Shame around sexuality and I don't, I even don't remember that I saw my mother naked once. Like she was always covered and sexuality was something to hide and to feel ashamed. Yeah. I think I remember you sharing with me that the first time you, when your period came it was a nightmare because, and why was it a nightmare? Was it just because no one talked to you about it or they didn't know how to respond or, yeah, exactly. Like it was just a non-event. I remember that my friends the parents of my friends, they gave them like gifts and they told me, now you, now this is super special and everything. And at my home it was like something to just avoid and to not to talk about and to hide and to really very get over it rapidly. Don't acknowledge it and it's something beautiful. It's of course, yeah. It's it's a girl becoming a young woman and it's a beautiful rite of passage for the body. Yeah. So it sounds like the messages were to avoid sexuality, to avoid your sexuality, something to be ashamed of. I remember you sharing with me being caught masturbating at four or five years old. And I think your father. Fou found you and got very angry. Yeah. Yeah. He looked at me like, with so with such angry eyes that yeah. This state with me this eyes. Yeah. How did you feel coming into your first session? Because by that time I think we had Skyped to do the intake and we were in communication. While I was there you were flying in and we had scheduled your first session for that evening. Yes. I remember when I landed in Amsterdam, it really hit me. It was like, oh my God, this is crazy that I'm doing this. I had so much resistance then it was this kind of resistance that I know when I know it is, I know it is good for me, but because it is unknown. I'm scared and I was scared. I remember that day. That I had the resistance. But I told you, and you were like, yeah invite. It's welcome here. You can be scared and this and it's normal. And so we talked about it. And that really helped. And and also it helped that, I think the sessions with you, it also helped me with relating to the masculine and to the male. I think it was the first time that I actually felt safe in a room with a man. I had this experience of feeling safe with women. But I didn't have this experience with the man, so this really helped. What worked to the advantage of our sessions was the opportunity to not only re imprint a pattern with the masculine, but the chance to reparent Nina's experiences with, in this case, an older male authority figure. One who honors, celebrates and has reverence for our natural sexual embodiment and life force. We began each session with neuro affective touch, inviting her body to identify and voice the kinds of support her body wanted to receive in order to release chronic guarding patterns, followed by full body active consent. For her body to identify and give vocal consent to the kinds and quality of touch her body wanted to explore receiving the inner pelvic work, which followed, allowed for an evolving presence, reception, expansion, and self permission for embodied pleasure. Yeah, I remember you arriving that first session and you were, I just remember you were sitting on the edge of the chair and your feet were not touching the floor. And and I was thinking, why isn't she leaning back? She's got like back support there, but she were like on the edge and yeah, I maybe I brought some pillows for your back or something. I just remember you were, and it's so natural and actually healthy. I think, it's a healthy response because we had not done any sessions yet. You had just flown in, the situation calls for a healthy. Guard in the beginning. Yeah, this is exactly what you told me back then, and it was so good that you said that, and yeah. You brought caution as you, and you told me like, the feet have to be on the ground. This helps to have a sense of safety. Yeah. Nina, I'm curious now that it's been, 10 months since, since these sessions, what do you recall as being the key turning points for you during the sessions? Because as a practitioner I have a sense of what seemed like the key points for me, but for you and what you remember now? I had. I had several key points. I remember one session where I had this this image of my father leaving the room like he was in the room with us and then he was leaving and he closed the door. This was one, one very important memory and. It was huge for me to learn, to listen to my body and to voice it. And the hardest part was to allow myself to receive touch and pleasure. And I also remember, I think the second or the third day a lot of shame came up. And how I could move through this and allow it. And it was, yeah, it was so important. I'd love to ask you about Richard, but you remember Oh, I remember. I, I also feel like the, it was, I think the third session. We did five over, I think 10 days and, it was in the third session when you said, I feel my father leaving the room. That was really, that kind of shifted because after that I think that coincided with the shame really not being there. You feeling more comfortable receiving and the pleasure starting to shift in your body, like you're, it felt like you started giving yourself permission that wasn't there before. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you what, for listeners to understand why that was so significant, what do you think that symbolized, and what do you think that experience was for you? That your father left the room in the middle of a session whilst you were receiving pleasure? When I think back. I still had his, his angry look. It was somehow in my body. And when, during this session, he left, like this allowed. Finally I allowed myself to have pleasure without this angry look in my mind. This is, I think this is the shift. I remember that you asked me like, how do you feel now that your father left and there was. I remember that I said sad and free. Yes, I remember that too. Yeah. Yeah. Just for listeners to have a sense of the dynamic with your father you were very close to your father. It sounded like he, he was the one that was keeping the family together after your family immigrated because your mother had some emotional and mental challenges. But, something else you shared with me, I wondered. About after, and that was I just remember you, you feeling a pressure as a child to keep it together for your father because he was the one that was really. Caring for your mom, part of me wondered whether just holding everything in and keeping it together was a kind of a way for you to support your father, and whether part of holding it in and keeping it together meant, not asking for things not feeling needy, not, not taking attention away and whether that played a role in your adult intimate relationships where you learned not to ask for things and not to, call attention to yourself. Yes, exactly. And to control myself. Like to, because I learned my si since my mom was ill, I just learned as a child to actually be the parent and being the parent was for me keeping it together and being in control and. This is, yes this affected immensely my sexuality 'cause control and sexuality doesn't go, it doesn't go through. Yeah, they're like opposites, right? To really receive Yes. And allow the energy to move through your body, you need to surrender that. What allowed you to give yourself permission to receive during the sessions? Yes. What debilitated me from receiving was shame. Once I could let it go. I remember you said it's okay. You can just invite shame to be with us. And then it didn't come up because it was accepted, I think. I don't know. But I remember the following session, it didn't come up. And I remember I could receive finally when I just, I could let go, I could surrender, like in my body I felt my muscles were like much more soft. And this is when I finally could receive. As your body started to wake up to areas of sensation and pleasure that it hadn't before. Was there ever an impulse that it was too much or that you wanted to resist it or stop it because it can be quite vulnerable to start letting go and surrendering control to that energy in your own body? Yeah. It was, I think it was the second session. It was the session where I felt so much shame. And I remember that I, I had this feeling once that I want to disappear. But this is the thing with shame. I couldn't grasp it at, in the moment. It was later on that I, when I reflected like how I was feeling, I was like, ah, this was shame. This was the sense of, oh, I couldn't receive. Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't realize at the time that it was shame because it had such a grasp, and it sounds because I remember you had a clear intention, maybe it was the third session of letting go of that shame. And I believe the more you focused on your body sensations that intention really worked for you. Yes, I remember that. The evening before, I think I did some inner child work. And then the next day I really set the intention on healing and not, not go into shame all the time, but it really helped me when you said just let it come up. Just let it be here. Yeah. Not to resist it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm curious what changes in your body you felt were most significant? I would say that. Now I feel much more at home in my body. Like I feel that my intuition is heightened. Wow. I also feel like that I have the the container for bigger feelings, like for more grief, but also more joy. I also started with yoga after Amsterdam. I just discovered this by myself. I didn't do yoga before. I don't, I think it's interesting and like when I work during the day I can come back to my body much faster. Like it doesn't take me several days. This process is much faster. So your body's more available. The embodiment is is more accessible. Yes, I have the feeling that I have during my self-pleasure practice. I can reach much deeper orgasms than before. There is one thing that really surprised me. It was like before when I I told you that during the sessions, like sometimes when I when I self pleasured I got really sad. And I had to cry sometimes afterwards. After the session, this disappeared. Your experience was no longer sadness. What? What was your experience? Pleasure. Just pleasure. Wonderful. Yeah. And goodness in my body like a, a good feeling in my body. Yes. That it could feel just expanding and. Pleasurable and beautiful. Yeah. These are but two examples of how early associations with our embodied sexual pleasure can create imprints influencing patterns and behaviors into our adult years ears. Fortunately, the neuroplasticity of our body minds. Coupled with our Pavlovian ability to rewire new imprints, somatically allows for an ability to recondition new healthy associations that can free and empower us into new and expansive realms of sexual embodiment, pleasure and goodness, restoring our organic sexual nature. Are there associations with your sexual arousal pleasure or orgasm patterns that feel limiting or not so self-honoring to you? And if so, how might you invite an unconditionally safe space to explore being present? To the sensations and feelings of your body mindfully and compassionately, and begin to explore new associations that are empowering, expansive, and loving for yourself and for your body. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Trauma & Nervous System Healing --- ### [How Early Touch Shapes Adult Intimacy, Trauma & Sexuality — Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/podcast/arcline-touch-intimacy/) **Published:** January 27, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** In this inaugural episode, Dr. Aline LaPierre, Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy, discusses the "Arcline of Touch" - the developmental journey of our touch receptors and intimacy imprints beginning from within the Mother's womb, and their influences on our adult sexuality and intimacy patterns and experiences. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # How Early Touch Shapes Adult Intimacy, Trauma & Sexuality **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## *In This Episode:* We explore how early touch imprints shape adult intimacy, trauma patterns, and sexual connection with Dr. Aline LaPierre, founder of NeuroAffective Touch. Through the lens of somatic touch and nervous system development, you’ll understand how the body forms relational patterns—and how conscious touch can restore safety, sensation, and deeper intimacy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun") [neuroaffectivetouch.com](https://neuroaffectivetouch.com/) [Touch & Sexual Healing eBook](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Touch-Sexual-Healing-eBook-Official.pdf) *Today’s Guest:* ##### *Dr. Aline LaPierre, PsyD, MFT, SEP* Dr. Aline LaPierre is the co-author of Healing Developmental Trauma: How Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship now available in twelve languages. She is the founder and director of The NeuroAffective Touch Institute and developer of NeuroAffective Touch® specializing in teaching the integration of psychotherapy with the therapeutic use of touch. Dr. LaPierre is a graduate of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Santa Barbara, and The New Center for Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles, and is trained in many body-centered modalities. Past faculty in the Somatic Doctoral Program at Santa Barbara Graduate Institute, Aline is currently vice-president of the United States Association for Body Psychotherapy (USABP), and deputy editor of The International Body Psychotherapy Journal (IBPJ). A clinician, author, artist, and workshop leader, she maintains a private psychotherapy practice in West Los Angeles. ## *What You’ll Learn About Touch, Trauma & Intimacy* $ “From the moment we’re conceived, the body develops through pleasure… ” $ How spooning with another body simulates how we are positioned in the Mother’s womb, soothes our nervous system, and communicates being loved & connected. $ How the compression of our touch receptors, moving through the vaginal canal, awakens the touch sensors for relational skin-to-skin communication. $ How the infant – having the time to find their own breath out of the womb before the umbilical cord is cut, can simulate adult sexuality when not enough time is given for the body to discover its organic pulsation and desire. $ How eye-to-eye contact associated with deep pleasure and intimacy, as the body is nourished by the Mother’s milk and gaze, awakens the brain + heart connection. $ How our earliest genital contact outside the womb via diaper-changing plants seeds for our relationship with our genitalia. $ How shock waves through the entire system can arrest the pleasure pulsation when our care-givers respond punishingly towards our self-pleasure, and how to restore the body’s natural pulsation. $ How couples can recognize, identify & support their partners to develop underdeveloped receptor pathways. $ How these developmental influences affect our adult intimacy dynamics and how this plays out in our attachment styles. ## *→ Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing* This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing.](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) ### *Related Episodes on Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation* • [Genital de-armoring and pelvic healing for trauma and pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/genital-armouring-healing/) •[ How to heal trauma and regulate the nervous system for intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/heal-trauma-regulate-nervous-system/) • [How somatic consent and touch awareness deepens trust and safety](https://rahichun.com/podcast/somatic-consent-touch-boundaries/) • [How necessary and critical the pace of trust is for trauma healing and restoring pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) ## *Go Deeper Into This Work:* The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In this first episode, we explore the arc line of touch with Dr. Eile LaPierre. How do the initial touch imprints of our first breath breastfeeding diaper, changing self pleasuring, and adolescent sexuality blossoming. All influence are later adult, sexual, and intimacy patterns with ourself and with others. At the end of the episode, Dr. LaPierre leads us through a somatic exercise for reintegrating disconnected parts of our embodiment. Enjoy today. I am really thrilled and honored to invite Dr. Aileen LaPierre to the podcast. A there are so many things I can share about Aileen, but on the kind of professional level, she is the director and founder of the neuro Effecti Touch Institute. Where she teaches internationally a somatic modality that she developed called Neuro Effective Touch. She's also the co-author of Healing Developmental Trauma. And I feel like Neuro Effective Touch is like a culmination of so many decades of your experiences. Certainly as a practitioner, as a senior teacher in the somatic arts. And Aileen, I feel like it goes all the way back to I feel like you're a movement artist and a visual artist and really a listener for how life force wants to emerge. And I feel like all of that is really expressed in neuro effecti touch. A little background about Aileen is yeah, she was a an artist in Europe as, and it's what brought her to Los Angeles. And then she became really involved in in continuum which is a practice that invites a listening for how the authentic body wants to move and express itself. And I love that you are so body, just so attuned with your body and then complimented that with your studies at Pacifica. It's a thrill to have you here, Aileen. There's so much we can cover, but having taken the neuro effecti touch training and I loved how. Clearly I came to understand the developmental journey of one's nervous system and sense of safety and embodiment and all of what that offers. I would love to start off by asking you if you can share the arc line of our developmental journey as embodied beings and as an, as embodied sexual beings and how that develops from really from from the very beginning, from the very beginning. And this is the piece that I think is so important for us to understand. When psych, when psychotherapy, when psychoanalysis started, Freud was talking about the sexuality of children. And of course it created this uproar and this absolute sort of black mark on psychoanalysis, but actually. From the body's perspective, there's something really important that happens in that from the moment we're conceived, the body develops through pleasure. In other words, through feeling safe. And there's a really deep link between feeling safe and the body being able to go into an expansive state. That actually is very important when we come later on to our mature sexuality. Because sexuality is about sensation in expansion in the body. Yes. It reminds me of the the organic pulsation. Yes. Of the protoplasm from our training that we are really organically expanding. We're pulsing our organic pulsation, and that happens from our, from when we're in the womb. And the pleasure you speak of it reminds me of images and articles I've read about. You can see a fetus holding onto its genitalia often, and that pleasure in the womb, I'm just imagining it must be orgasmic, not in a sexual sense, but in a life force, joy and safety sense. Right in a full breath se sense. So here's the thing. Touch is really important in sexuality. We make connection very much through touch. And touch. Develops is the first sense that develops in the wombs at weeks six of gestation. So from, and it's called of course, the mother of the senses because it is the first sense to develop. So it goes really deep to the root of our nervous system, how we're touched. And of course, in the womb we're floating in the amniotic fluid and the skin. There's some little Celia all over the skin that stimulates the skin. And so then from the beginning, this sense of being connected through touch is really important. Yes. Yeah. And I remember in our neuro effecti touch training, how the image of the way the fetus is usually positioned in the womb with its entire backside against the belly of the mother just feeling that connection through those touch senses. And like with a partner, how wonderful it is to spoon, which is basically recreating that full contact of the spine and the back to the belly of our partner, and how soothing that is to the nervous system and how it does communicate a sense of being loved, accepted, a sense of being safe, of being enveloped. That really allows the whole body to relax and open to the connection with the other. Yes. Yes. And I'm imagining in the womb when our senses are so alive and pure, even the reverberation of the mother's heartbeat and the breathing and the sound of her voice the way it's vibrating against her touch senses is a form of touch in it, in and of itself. It definitely is. Absolutely. And also this sense of floating, we are in a we're in a liquid medium the amniotic fluids. So we are floating as well as being touched. And that feeling of floating, of becoming really light and outside of gravity is also very core to that sense of of wellbeing and that sense of deep connection. Yes. I don't wanna go on too many tangents here, but it reminds me of a watsu sessions that I've received Yeah. Up at Harbin, where they warmed the temperature of the pool to your body temperature and you are floating. And it does, it's astounding what memories and what kind of lucid dream space that can elicit. So coming back to the arc so from the womb then, yes, there's. The birth of the fetus. Of the infant. And so at birth, there's a compression at, and we're talking about a healthy birth here. Yes. We're not talking about. All of the things that can go awry and that could be a different conversation, but it's nice first to set the arc of what happens when everything develops as it should. So then through the birth, as we, as the baby goes through the birth canal, there's a compression that happens and that compression sends a signal into the body. To awaken in a different way. It prepares us to be in the outside world. So then our, all of our touch sensors through that compression awaken in a particular way. And I have seen it like in, in in cesarean birth that there's a certain awakening of the skin that needs to happen that might not happen through a cesarean birth. So then our skin is then ready and as the baby then comes into the world and is put on the mother's belly, then the relationship of the body is different because it's no longer being floating in an amniotic fluid. It's now coming skin to skin. And the skin has been awakened. And so the communication skin to skin begins. Wow. Yes. So the awakening that, that birthing through the vaginal canal, that compression of the skin, it is like waking up or engaging those touch receptors in such a dynamic way that it wasn't used to, but it actually prepares it for the bonding and connection. It, it can then experience as a being out of the womb. And so once the infant is placed on the chest, then it, I've read incredible. I've seen incredible, it is just so intuitive how the baby knows where to go. And finding the mother's nipple. And here's the p the piece about giving time, because as the baby lands on the mother's belly the cord will just slowly, the baby has to learn to breathe in the real world and not get its oxygen from the umbilical cord. So then that takes time. The body needs time to acclimate. And that feeling of, I have enough time to. To find my way, is really important because when the cut, when the cord is cut too early, there's this sense of, I have to hurry up. I don't have enough time. And when the transfer of the breath hasn't fully completed out of the cord into the lungs, there remains in the body an activation in the nervous system of never, even, never being able to fully drop in because there's not gonna be enough time. And that sense of timing is really important in sexuality. You know that to, to give the body time to find its way into a full breath, into a pulsation. Yeah. I feel like it speaks to whether an introduction into life is, whether there's space to allow the organic expression to unfold. Yes. Or whether there's an outer agenda imposed onto that organic expression. And that, that in and of itself occurs in sexuality all the time. Is there the space for the organic life force to feel itself, to feel its authentic movement and initiation? Or is there an outer agenda? That's beautifully said, Rahi. Wonderful. Yes, absolutely. And so you can see that as we look at those early experiences that imprint the foundation of life, force, of what life can be like on the planet, right there at the very foundation of our nervous system. And from there, everything builds. Cord is cut, the baby doesn't even flinch. There's it's done. And then after a little while, this is the most amazing thing for anyone who's observed, a natural birth. You see the lips begin to have this little movement, like a little. Just a little sucky and it happens spontaneously. And that, as that happens in the baby, in other words, how that, that stucking movement begins to awaken, then the baby begins to find its way and look for the nipple. And so then there's a desire that awakens in the lips for connection for the nipple. And that begins to awaken the whole lip area. The mouth and actually the digestive system. And bring pleasure because as the baby finds the way to the nipple, connects to the nipple and begins that sucking motion, the body feels pleasure. It's pleasureful because that's what's supposed to happen. And so it awakens the mouth and you can see how that later leads on to a pleasure at stimulating lips with kissing, with having that play around the mouth. Yes. Yes. And at that. At that stage of an infant's development. It's a whole body pleasure. It is ins, it is instigated by this the nerve endings and the lips in the mouth. But I'm imagining the whole body is ecstatic and being satisfied. And where it leads to then is that as the baby suckles, the warm milk comes in and awakens the whole digestive tract. So it awakens that the belly, the stomach, that whole wellbeing that can then happen in the gut. Which is actually the first station of the vagal system. If we go deeper into the nervous system, and we talk a lot about the vagal system, it begins an awakening of the dorsal vagal in, in the gut area. And in the gut area and all the way down into the pelvic floor. Because that sucking motion has a resonance in the pelvic floor in all of the diaphragms of the body. Yes. I was speaking to a colleague who really focuses on the throat pelvic connection and how they're really interconnected. And it starts from that very beginning. So then Eileen, continuing on the, or on, on a healthy developmental arc with a, an infant's touch receptors. In the chapter that you shared with me, touch and sexual healing, I really loved some of the somatic exercises where in order to restore touch receptors that may have not developed organically, you are inviting that unconditional presence and attention, the intention and the focused attention. These are what nourishes, it's like watering the plant of the touch receptors in an infant. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so in, in an infancy the role that kind of touch and a variety and diversity of touch for the infant to start identifying its felt sense as its felt self as you share in the chapter really speaks to so much of not only our embodiment, but our intuition, identifying our body's likes and dislikes. It's really creating that, that language of touch, the touch literacy that you speak of. When I work with couples and sometimes, they'll come in going we're, we don't seem to be well matched sexually. One of the first questions I asked is, do you like how your partner touches you? And usually there's a silence and a bit of embarrassment, and both parties will say, no, it's too much, it's not enough, it's too fast, it's too slow. There's not attention. There's like a lot of issues that come up around how we're touched. And the fact is that we have so many different sensors in our skin. Some are surface sensors, some response to deep sensors, some response to fast touch other sensors like slow touch. And all of us have our preferences in terms of which touch receptors we like to stimulated. And so it's important to know how our partner needs to be touched in terms of what receptors are responsive, or what receptors that person pre prefers to have stimulated. And very often, couples don't know that there's so much exploration there in terms of feeling met, in terms of feeling loved, attuned to and aroused. Yeah. So we're moving into the restoration now, which is perfect. The somatic exercises that you offer in the chapter are really about it's it's like inviting couples or individuals to develop their. Inventory of Yes. What touches they, their body likes, doesn't responds to, maybe wants to explore. And it's it still surprises me how for a lot of them, it's the first time they've explored a touch inventory of themselves. And so I can imagine with couples how that can be just revelatory. Yes. So to come back to that developmental arc, sure. There's a really important piece that we didn't go to, which is the eyes. Which is the gaze. Which is so powerful. And so then as the baby settles to suckle, the mother holds the baby, and then they engage in the eye to eye contact. And so then this eye to eye contact now is connected to these, this deep pleasure of warm milk going into the gut, the feeling held, the stimulation of the skin having been awakened. And now they look at each other and the baby starts to see the mother's love that little glint in her eye. And that awakens, I think, goes into, the vision centers in the back of the brain that starts to awaken the whole brain and heart connection so that the brain then becomes involved in that sense of allowing pleasure through contact. It is profound to me how the infant is experiencing the soothing warmth of the breast milk and the aliveness of the whole body with the bonding of the eyes of the mother. And you started to speak about when that glint may not be there or when the feeding experience is combined with a preoccupied mother figure or maybe a disconnected or disembodied who is not so present. I wondered Aileen, because that there's another experience that can mirror a lot of people's adult sexual experiences where the body is actually being stimulated with sensation. Yes. Yet it is not met with an emotional receptivity or availability. Uhhuh, with the presence of the eyes and the presence of the body. And then, of course I wonder whether that wiring may also associate. The infant's upregulated nervous system with pleasure rather than a relaxed receptivity with pleasure, which can also mirror a lot of our adult experiences as well. Are you saying that we can have a physical stimulation, but it isn't accompanied in parallel with an emotional response? Yes. Yes. Yes. And, the emotional response really happens very much in our organs. It's like our organs are the generator of the emotional response, which is the interoceptive sense of touch. And then the sensation is very much associated with the extra receptives receptors, which are the receptors in the skin. And so we have, actually, we have three touch systems in the body, right? We have the extra receptive, which is the, all of the receptors in the skin the pressure, the warmth, the cold, all of that, that happens in the skin. Then we have receptors in our joints. That, that when those are stimulated, we get a sense of movement, and that's really important as well. And then we have what is called the interoceptive sensors, which are the sensors of the vagus nerve, which are the sensors in the organs, in the belly, in the heart, through the throat and vocal cords. And then through the face, the eyes, the ears, the sense of smell, the sense of taste, all of that. So these three systems ideally work together for a full experience. And so you could see that when some part of it is missing, we try to compensate, because the body feels it, there's a missing parts. So how do we fill in, how do we compensate for those missing parts? And oftentimes we will put extra focus on a particular aspect, whether it's a sound, whether it's a more friction sensation, something to make up for the missing parts. So what I'm hearing is that when there, there may, when there is an absence of the emotional connection, which is the interceptive, a lot of times that can result in the body amping up the interceptive or whatever is available, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's really profound to recognize how, when there is an alignment of those three receptors, there is a sense of wholeness and alignment and rightness and when there isn't, how there is that disconnect with the inner the inner sense despite what's happening on the outer. And you will have some people, some individuals who need to come in to connection through the emotional, because the sensory is a little bit dull or was never. And so then if they're with a partner who has an opposite where they need the sensory stimulation before they can activate the emotional, you have different mismatches or different needs, and those needs need to be recognized for people to really come together. Yes. And yes. So that it's not necessarily a mismatch of souls, but a mismatch of receptors. You yes. This is a good way of saying it. Yes. Yeah. And identifying, as you say the assessment and the identification of that mismatch can lead to, to both people consciously realigning and making sure that both receptor sets are really being addressed and met. Yes, exactly. And so it's, it's wonderful work for couples to do that, those types of healing parts together, to recognize them, to identify them, and for a partner to be interested in helping their, there's their loved other to, to really develop those missing peace. Because in terms of restoration, although the main window of development happens early on, we're still, we know now very plastic. And so we can heal and we can reopen those pathways. And what a exquisite opportunity of intimacy. Yes. For beloveds and couples to. Revisit these wounds that the partner may just be discovering or realizing for the first time themself. Yeah. And usually when a partner is willing to do that, there's a sense of gratitude that awakens in the person. You really care about me. You really are willing to be with me where I need to be met. And the bo not only is there a, an emotional wow, you really see me and you see what I need, but the body itself, down to the cellular level feels gratitude. Yeah. Gratitude. And I'm guessing also a deeper it's almost like a window towards a deeper felt self for the receiver. That, that, that and that trust will deepen the intimacy within the relationship. Yeah, that's really profound. I'm to con to, to continue with the arc. Yes. We get to this really critical and interesting touch experience of genital contact outside the womb with diaper changes and, eventually potty training, right? Yes. And I feel like it's a rich area and experience of whether of really planting seeds for the infant's relationship with their genitalia. Absolutely. So much happens there. Yeah. I think this happened during the Aileen, do you remember at the infant therapy training was Charlotte Groom? Yes. There was a video shown of diaper changing. In a way that was not shaming, that was participatory, that was both present and really playful, right? Yes. And what can we say about it? Again, you know what's so important in any exchange with the parent, with the caregiver, is this. Feeling that the infant can trust that no, no pain will come, or that the body, it's actually at very much on a body level at that point, that the body feels cared for, that the eye contact is maintained, like in, in that exchange. And if I remember in that exchange the mother or whoever is the caregiver. Always talks to the baby this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it. And what was striking about the whole relationship of the adult to the child is that even if the child didn't understand the actual meaning of words, still on some level, the child absolutely knew what was being told. So then in terms of this diaper changing, we very rarely talk about it. Was it rough? Was the mother disgusted? Was was the way that she cleaned the baby because of that disgust of the smell of the poop and all that? It's and did the baby get that? Im that message that, yes, my genitals are not clean, they're dirty. I'm displeasing my mother, and then you begin to have all of these subtle. Patternings that are about distancing from genitals, feeling badly or shamed about, pooping or Yeah. Or wedding diapers or and then this sort of retraction and this very subtle constriction that starts to happen in the pelvic floor and in the genitals and the genital area. Yes. And a splitting off I'm gonna pretend like it doesn't exist because it really displeases my mother or my caregiver. Absolutely. Absolutely. In another interview, one of my guests shared that a Norwegian, a Norwegian study showed that by the time children are, I think six or seven years old, there's already a fair amount of tension in the pelvic bowl. And I just have to wonder like what, the effect of that exactly to what you're saying, is it inconvenient? Does it seem inconvenient to the parent? Is it, are they irritated to be able to have to do this again? And I feel like, when we're children, there's all this, on the playground, there is a shaming of each other when it comes to peeing and pooing. And where is that learned? How is that learned? Yes, for sure. Or is a child left in a wet in a wet, dirty diaper too long? So that again, that, that retraction, yes. Where is it learned and. So many parents were themselves shamed or not cared for. So it is passed down through the generations. Absolutely. And this brings up like another fascinating topic for me, I, the degree to which our adult unrecognized or unaddressed. Sexual issues get passed down with the interaction of the child or the infant's genitalia through, through, whether it's through potty training or changing diapers whether there's an aversion, whether there's a. Discomfort a kind of contraction within the parent that the child probably feels right when those diapers are, when there's potty training or when there's contact with that part of the body. The pulling away, when you said the word discomfort, you did this naturally, this pulling away, and we're talking about this pulling away this dissociation from the area so that it becomes, like you say, shameful or numb or somehow there's a message that says that allowing consciousness to be fully present in the genitalia is is going to be a source of pain. And a source of rejection. Yes. I think that's like really powerful. Yeah. That, that we, when we ex experience some form of rejection early on for the bodily functions of the pelvic bowl, genitalia, excretion, that it's very hard to find one's way back. And particularly that there's no real. Attention given to healing that, as practitioners, of course you really are in a field where you can start bringing healing to coming back into the pelvic bowl, the genitalia, all of that. But there have been, there haven't been, ways of doing that. The only, like in my own training, which was years ago, like in in deep tissue, you would go into the area, but it was always in terms of musculature of allowing the connective tissue to, to release. It was never this subtle relational, emotional connection that was encouraged to come back. And I think that's what you are doing is this, like, how do we bring back this loving, caring, relational approach into the lower body, into the genitalia, into the pelvic floor? Honestly, Aileen, I feel neuro effective Touch does this brilliantly in creating that dialogue between mind and body and inviting listening for the body to tell its story. Oftentimes, stories that have been buried in this, in the cellular tissues for decades. I sometimes refer to the work I do as neuro effecti Touch for the genitalia. Beautiful. Yes. 'cause it's the same principle. It is the same principle, like all the tissues and musculature of our body hold stories and they. In order to reestablish that intimate relational dynamic between body and body owner. Those stories, the trauma, especially the disconnect needs the reparation and Right. The genitalia deserves it as much as any other part of the body. Oh, for sure. For some reason this hierarchy has been created, where brain is at the top of the hierarchy and genitalia is I don't know, it's kind of like absent or ignored or worse, it's it's bad, it's dirty, it's shameful. It's been sent to hell in a way. And that needs to change because really, as far as the body's concerned, there is no hierarchy any place where the body breaks down affects the whole body no matter what cell, what organ, what system. There is no hierarchy in the health of the body. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I, I, so trigger warning because when it comes to that kind of disconnect I really wonder the effect of circumcision on young boys. Oh. 'cause here, sometimes straight out of the womb, straight out of this incredible communion, an area of the body that's innervated in a particular way. So that's, there's so much sensation, and it's introduced with to this incredible pain and mutilation. Oh, it is a mutilation, it's barbaric. For sure. It is barbaric without an aesthetics, yes. And I think there's been enough studies now to show that there is no medical advantage. To being circumcised. I think that's finally come out now. Yes, but there's I really wonder what that does to an infant's relationship with that, intimate part of their body. And, on another level whether there is a sense of distrust or feelings of betrayal to the caretakers to allow this kind of experience to take place. Or if the infant is too young to really register that. You are never too young to register. And that's the important thing to remember is that even if the cortex is not yet online, the body is, every cell is, and it is it's a, it's an it's a horrendous betrayal. And it's not just, we're not talking very much about energy right now. We've been talking about the physical but it's a breach in the energetic field. And so I don't even, sometimes I don't even know how to talk about the energetic field without sounding, way out there. Yeah. But ultimately there, there's a pulse and there's an electromagnetic field in the body that can be measured. And when there's a breach in that field, something that there's a vulnerability that remains, it's almost like the field is a protective field. And when you betray or when there's a breach, it remains open. And so we have particular vulnerabilities as a result of these betrayals. It's also my sense, I talk a lot about the shock to the heart. That anytime there's a relational betrayal, which this is because that baby was not, did not give permission for this to happen, anytime, even on a on a cellular level, even without saying yes, that lack of permission comes in as a shock to the heart. Like what? Like on the heart level, because the heart tracks the caring, loving, respectful, relation, relational aspect of, so when there's a betrayal, it's a shock to the heart. And so not only is there a physical numbing, but there's also already a signal to the heart to not trust. Do not trust. Yeah. And this is where I forget her name, that Charlotte. Charlotte, this is where Charlotte was so brilliant, is that she would talk to the betrayal so that the child, could say, this is why this happened. And so that the child could come back out of that shock of the betrayal. Yes. Yes. Because every betrayal, no matter on what level physical is is causes a numbing and a shutdown. Yes. I agree that, that is brilliant. Charlotte's work infant therapy the acknowledgement and the ownership. It's like the adults are taking ownership and that somehow creates a relief in the psyche of the child. It does. For example, for this piece of circumcision, I don't know. I would imagine like we could say, this happened to you, your penis was really, was cut and it was painful. Your parents didn't do it because they didn't love you. They did it because they didn't know any better and the doctor said that, they're very sorry that it hurt you. And so there's an acknowledgement and there's a, putting it in a context so that the child can let go of that feeling of betrayal. Yes. You can see when that story is told, you can see the child actually relax. And you can see the eyes connect a little bit more and it's, it was, it's an amazing thing that, telling the story, but acknowledging, and particularly this piece of acknowledging, it's not that your parents didn't love you, it's that this was the norm then. And the doctor said, you should, they should do it. And they wanted the best for you, but without knowing it, they hurt you. Yeah I'm just feeling how that, how restorative that is to the heart contraction. That you alluded to earlier how the shock is not only to the nerve physical sense, but really the heart contraction and sense of trust and how that can really relax that heart protection and guarding. And you'll notice even as you feel that the heart starts to let go, there's a shift in the breath. And the breath can come in a little more deeply and come back into the diaphragm, back into the belly, and as the diaphragm relaxes, as a result, the pelvic floor will follow because the respiratory diaphragm and the pelvic floor all, there are a number of diaphragms start to move together again, which then will shift how we can reconnect with genitalia. Aileen, I've imagined like how intimate and restorative this could be for couples for the partner to hold space for the adult man. I've been to RO workshops where the men will separate and the women will separate and we will re, we will go through, they will simulate a circumcision kind of ritual, but the response to it will be different to re imprint a new story. But to do that where your beloved or your wife or your girlfriend is there to, really be supportive to the post circumcision experience with an intentional touch with, their presence, I think can be could be remarkably healing. That's true. And that's where couples can do healing that no practitioner ever can do because of the love, because of the connection, because of the involvement of the heart. So to do that healing with an intentional touch, a very gentle holding touch, helps reestablish the the reestablish that, that fullness of the energetic field and then Yes. Moves back through all the way into the tissues. Yes. Yes. So I wanna continue on the arc line Sure. Once again, because I feel like in infancy we get to a place where, children discover how good self pleasuring is. Yes. And just so innocently and so beautifully. And the, in my intakes, I always, it's so many stories of people being caught and the response of being caught by a parent, it can range from i've heard of a parent like excusing themself, just to give the child some privacy. And in a way really honoring, that relationship with the body, obviously all the way over to not only shaming, but punishment and fear of damnation and going to hell and all of that. And the incredible imprint that has stemming from just an innocent exploration of one's body and what feels good. Yeah. And particularly I think there's a period, between three, four years old, five years old where sexuality awakens and then it goes dormant again until puberty. So I think you're probably, I don't know if you're talking about that period where it just awakens in the body and the child is receiving these amazing sensations, right? And the body is learning to open and to move in a pulsation to allow the sensations to move through the whole body. And again, when a parent either discovers or shames the child. It sends a shock this time through the whole system. And we know that what shock does is that it arrests that natural pulsation in a freeze response. In this case it's not about fight or flight, but it creates a freeze right there in that pleasure pulsation. And then it becomes later on that since its net doesn't get addressed, that freeze in the pleasure pulsation leaves the person who is wanting to be sexual, having to somehow always find a way through the freeze back to sensation. And then it's not that natural organic pulsation, but it's a way of how do I get back into myself? Yeah. Yeah. So that freeze response creates blocks, both physiologically and emotionally, psychologically yeah. So when we do get to, the prepubescent or and puberty stage, I feel like it's another really ripe, stage in our development because here we're, our bodies are changing, our attractions to the, our classmates are changing. And I think something that's not talked about so much is how our parents' behavior towards our sexuality changing can be either celebrated, given space for, or be met with such discomfort. And a lot of times I've had clients who, whose bodies develop, early, at 11 or 12, and their fathers don't know how to respond to their little girl or interact with them based on their own discomfort or unmet sexual needs. Yes. And on this arc now we're really following the arc of what happens inside a person's body. We haven't talked about what happens when there's abuse or sexual abuse and all of that. That's a whole other huge subject, but still has an impact. But it's true that, even for girls, it's like when the menstrual period start, it's like that shift in the body. And again, it's like how the, how a girl is introduced or ready or not ready for that. It's so much then gets programmed there as well, but you were talking about how a father may retract from intimacy, from being just open and spontaneous with his daughter when she becomes sexual. And of course, that is often taken by the young girl as a rejection of her femininity and of her sexuality. Yes. Yes. And that can be, so internalized and confusing when there isn't a open conversation or way to address, what's actually happening in the dynamic, right? Or a father may go the other way and really, make inappropriate comments or even in inappropriate touch. And so again, it's do I, for the young girl is do I show myself as I am? Do I hold back? Do I retreat out of my feminine? Do I feel shame for my breasts? Do I start to curl my body into, to hide my, my, my body's flowering in a way? Yes. Yeah, I'm really struck I have a niece who's a teenager now and I'm struck by what you shared of that, when a society does is place, places, values on the external looks and appearance on women in a way that, that women are, feel a pressure to lead with that. And objectified. And objectified. Yeah. The confusion especially in, in, in our teen years as to where is my value? What is my value? What am I being valued for? Yes. Yeah. So I'm struck once again by the profoundness of that because Eileen, I gotta say so many of the stories I hear when I do an intake, the teenage years are always, they often involve alcohol and peer pressure and, unfortunately a breach of boundaries because as you say, no one teaches one how to identify what their boundaries are. Much less advocate and voice, voice them. And, so few of us learn how to be truly embodied in a way that really helps us develop a solid identity. And teens are at the teen years really bring in this sense of who am I and how do I fit into my peer group? And it's like developing our social capacity. It's like the it's it's a second birth of sort. Yes. It's like first we're born, in, in our physical self, in our family, and then we have to be born socially. And so whatever happened in the early years will be repeated in some way in our social birth. And that's why so oftentimes teenage years can be so confusing or painful or there's a lot of shame, or it's like making one's place in a peer group, but with the missing pieces of whatever traumas happen earlier. It's a, it's very complex. Particularly fat teen has no, no support and no help. Yeah. I was gonna say, for those of us who lacked that secure presence of our care of our caregivers in the developmental years, those it is a rebirth. It is a rebirthing, but it can easily turn into the primary sources of attachment for our identity. And at that age it's, we become very susceptible to the peer pressure because that becomes our primary family. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know a lot, and this is where. Somatic work and body psychotherapy can be really helpful to a teen to help them find, reconnect or connect with their bodies in a way that they maybe were not able to as children. But really it's not a field that's very developed yet. And so we taught, we have the teams talk about, we do very mental, very work, but the teaching of how are you embodied and how have your developmental leaders brought you to who you are today so that you can develop a healthy identity and choose your partners wisely. Yes. Yes. So here we're talking about the real need for the restoration and reclamation of one's bodies felt self. Felt sense and felt self. And again, I wanna refer to the somatic exercises in the chapter that you sent me. I felt there was such a beautiful sequencing of, and I find that, so many of my clients have never done this, essentially taken inventory of their felt sense of their body. It's like a body mapping of understanding, what parts of your body feel good with what kind of stimulation and how to give voice to that. Yeah. In our teenage years, if that was part if our sex education involved waking up those touch receptors as a way of connecting with intimacy, as a prelude to sexuality. It would go a long way as a preparation. Because that is, it's all of these years of development are really preparing our bodies to come to this place where sexuality opens and where we're available for this beautiful connection that is intimacy and sexuality. Yeah. Yeah, so I, I imagine that's a lot of the work that you do, rahi is helping people through these stages and helping them reconnect in a way where they can become available to themselves and to their partner. Yes. Yes. And that is why the approaching the repairing of the rupture sequentially, I find to be very valuable. Going all the way back to the. Some of my first questions are, what were the circumstances under which you were conceived? Because we know that's where it starts. If not before that, but to address those ruptures sequentially within the nervous system. And this is where, this is why I call it, neuro effecti touch of the pelvics or the genitalia, because it really does, it's the repairing the journey of the of how the nervous system develops organically. Repairing those ruptures is very akin to or is very instructive, I should say, of how to repair the ruptures of one's sexual embodiment and relationship with their own sexuality because they build on each other. Yeah. And then we get into after the adolescent stage when we start dating and getting into sexual relationships I feel like, once again, if a lot of those ruptures are not addressed, we bring those patterns into our sexual dynamic and oftentimes it's what's assumed as the norm. And, of course we magnetize, the energy container that can handle where we're at. And then patterns develop within relationships and as you mentioned when there's a mismatch between the the receptor sets of our body or. A misalignment of our, the needs and our kind of love languages that developed. It can become a relationship of avoidance of that, sexual intimacy. Yeah. Then we come into, this whole field of attachment styles and some people want like a very symbiotic connection, energetically and others are very avoidant. They still want so these attachment styles, which are connected to that early development, start to play out in what we look for in our sexual exchanges. Yeah. And just to finish up the arc, Aileen something I wanna underscore is I see a lot of people go through hormonal changes pre menopause and postmenopausal and as well as men with their testosterone. And the body is still touch is so important at any age. And always. That is our language. As we illustrated from our gestation period on and it's the body's language. It is the body's language, yes. And just to encourage a continual exploration because as our bodies change. There's always kind of new terrains to explore in regards to intimacy through touch. And whatever happens, the, this in terms of this arc, it's whatever happens in to our genitalia, it's also important to remember that orgasms are not just the domain of genitalia. It's we each organ, each part of the body is capable of its own orgasmic experience. And yes. And that's I don't know if that completes the arc, but it's important to remember, particularly as we get older, to cultivate that capacity for the body to open up. Because really an orgasm is an opening and a, a sharing and a release of deep energy that as we continue to develop, it's like part of what happens in older age is that if that is happening, then the body, the focus is less on genitalia as a whole, as rather than a whole body experience. Not that genitalia are not having their part of the orgasm, but there's a cultivation of this orgasmic pulsation through all of the organs in the whole body. Yeah. I feel like this gets back to the interoceptive and the ex receptive receptors. Yeah. And it's almost yeah. As infants, I think we are, I think we're extremely whole body orgasmic, not sexually, but in the joy and energy that we feel. Yes. And that this can be the case at any age. When again, that focused attention and intention and that unconditional presence is brought to. The exquisite touch that are all the parts of the body. So to come back, it's like when all the parts are touched, they either and, continue that whole body orgasm kind of feeling, or we have to cultivate that so that our bodies remain alive. And I, I see it very much, as we get older and you can see it in older people, it's almost like their color changes. The body becomes grayish, which is really a signal that pulsation, that orgasmic capacity that life force is pulling out has not been encouraged to really move through the whole body. And we call that aging, but I don't think it needs to be that way. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So really an encouragement. To speak our, to keep our primary language of touch front and center, in our self touch as well as our partner in community touch. Yeah. Really beautiful. Yeah. Eileen before we wrap up I, there are five or six somatic exercises in that chapter. Is that chapter available to the public? Yes, of course. I'd love to make it available because they're so simple, but they're so profound and I find that in the restoration and reclamation. Of sexual wellness arousal our natural stimulation responses. It calls for those kinds of guided practices to restore and awaken yeah. Those responses. But for our listeners who are listening and not going to the website, is there a somatic contemplation or a somatic practice that you feel could really or nourish their sexual embodiment? As you sit and breathe, you notice a place where you are breathing. If I breathe, I can feel okay, my belly rises and falls. So I would put one hand on the place where I do feel my breath. And then as I take a few more breaths and notice that, then I would ask myself, is there a place in my body where I don't feel I'm breathing? And I could feel it let's say here in my shoulder. So then I keep one hand on the area where I am breathing and one area where I'm not feeling that I'm breathing. And then I connect both and just breathe. And what happens is that the part that isn't breathing learns from the part that is and you could do it, from on my heart, I can feel I'm breathing here and I could put an a hand over my genitals. And so that the, because in terms of restoration, the body pulsates and opens with our breath. So we want to bring our breath to every part of the body. So connecting with the part where we feel breath and a part where we don't feel the breath and holding both together, then the part that didn't feel the breath is going to learn. And then there's a sense of, ugh, it opens up. And you can keep doing that through your whole body. Yes. That's wonderful. Aileen thank you. Thank you for. Who you are, your body of work, and for sharing your light on the planet. And if people wanna find you they can go to the neuro effecti touch.com. And currently neuro Effective Touch is being offered virtually all over the world. Is that correct? Yes. And we. We are starting a training and it's mostly for professionals, whether you're a body worker, anyone interested in really bringing more awareness to the body and it's through touch. It's amazing how well the touch can be taught online. And so what I'm doing is we're doing most of the theory and self-practice and that online. And as soon as it's safe, then we will do in-person touch master classes. But there's a training starting in January and for the US there's also one starting for Australia and there will be an Oslo training for Europe as well. All are on the website starting beginning 2021. Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah. Great. Thanks for being with us today, Eileen. It's great to see you. Thank you. It's always such a pleasure to have conversations with you Rahi. Notice how this exploration with Eileen is landing in your body, and whether your body may be inviting a deeper exploration of any stories. It may be ready and wanting to share with you. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) *Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment* Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Trauma & Nervous System Healing **Tags:** developmental trauma, embodied sexuality, Healing Touch, Inspiration, Neuroaffective Touch, Pleasure Practices, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork --- ### [How to Heal Trauma & Regulate the Nervous System – Kimberly Anne Johnson](https://rahichun.com/podcast/heal-trauma-regulate-nervous-system/) **Published:** March 25, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can we restore and awaken our nervous system at its own pace, layer by subtle layer, to ensure its felt sense and inner awareness is reclaimed from the ground up, and how does this profoundly affect our sexual embodiment and pleasure? Kimberly Ann Johnson’s new experiential book, The Call of the Wild: How We Heal Trauma, Awaken Our Own Power, and Use it for Good invites an embodied exploration of nervous system understanding, intimacy, and self-regulation via the senses through a carefully sequenced series of somatic experiences partnered with insightful cognitive understanding. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # How to Heal Trauma & Regulate the Nervous System with Kimberly Anne Johnson # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how trauma lives in the body and how nervous system regulation restores safety, connection, and emotional resilience with Kimberly Anne Johnson. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun") [KimberlyAnnJohnson.com](https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/) [The-Call-Of-The-Wild](https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/call-of-the-wild/ "https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/call-of-the-wild/") *Today’s Guest:* Kimberly Johnson is a Sexological Bodyworker, Somatic Experiencing practitioner, yoga teacher trainer, postpartum advocate and single mom. She helps women heal from birth injuries, gynecological surgeries and sexual boundary violations. She is the author of the early mothering classic The Fourth Trimester, as well as the upcoming Call of the Wild: How We Heal Trauma, Awaken Our Own Power, and Use It for Good. ## What You’ll Learn About Nervous System Regulation & Trauma Healing $ “We can talk about healing and we can think about healing, but it’s really the body that has the story to the healing.” $ How learning to use her whole body to convey a sense of authority provided a greater sense of safety and mastery in the dynamic with her young daughter. $ How working with a male somatic practitioner invited opportunities for transference to explore ways her embodied prey could feel its resource and ability to respond to predator energy in more expansive ways, as well as re-condition new empowering stories within her body’s memory of engaging with a perceived male threat. $ How teaching Activate Your Inner Jaguar, Kimberly’s signature course of understanding and re- regulating the nervous system, confirmed the collective impact and elevated learnings available when re-regulating as a group. $ How a new world understanding of our nervous system, that is not cerebral but visceral, empowers authentic intimacy for real sexual pleasure and relationships. $ How “fawning” is the nervous system’s survival strategy for getting close to a perpetrator in order to survive a threat and how this plays out in real life situations. $ How the nervous system is the “Motherboard” to all the body’s systems and how re-regulating it, as *The Call of the Wild* invites, layer by layer, is also a journey for restoring one’s healthy sexual embodiment. $ How waking up to our own power individually is what leads to real collective change within our larger societal power structures. $ How expanding our capacity to receive erotic charge and financial abundance is related to embodying safety with our inner predator energy. ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing Pillar Index Page](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [How the pace of trust informs trauma healing and the restoration of pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [What is needed for healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [How to reclaim pleasure after sexual trauma](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) [How trauma gets stored in the body and the transformative effects of preverbal healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## Go Deeper Into This Work: The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's podcast, we welcome Kimberly Ann Johnson, whose new book, the Call of The Wild, how We Heal Trauma, awaken Our Own Power, and Use It for Good. Invites an experiential embodied exploration of nervous system, understanding intimacy and reregulation via the senses. Through a carefully sequenced series of somatic experiences, we discuss her journey of somatic embodiment and reclamation as a mother, as a teacher of her popular activate your inner Jaguar series, and how she has rebirthed this as an author into its book form as a vehicle for both nervous system, self-regulation and sexual reclamation and empowerment. So today is a special day. I'm very excited, thrilled, and happy to be inviting Kimberly Ann Johnson to the podcast. A very dear and special soul. She's been a teacher, a mentor of sorts, and a trusted friend in my life's journey. Kimberly's body of work has been informed by a wide range of somatic experiences and modalities and practices. As a dancer, as a yoga teacher, as a birth doula, as a sexological body worker, a somatic experiencing practitioner, a structural integration body worker. She's mother to the wonderful cc. Author of the Fourth Trimester, A Postpartum Guide to Healing Your Body, balancing Your Emotions and Restoring Your Vitality. And the upcoming experiential book which is really an invitation to inhabit, befriend, and embody your nervous system. And it's called Call of the Wild, how we heal trauma, awaken our own power, and use it for good. It's a wonderful guide to restoring, reclaiming, and realizing the full freedom of our nervous system and its authentic life force. Kimberly, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me. Such a pleasure. Kimberly, I love the book. I hesitate to call it a book because it really is more of an experiential listening. And I love that it is that I wanted to start by asking you, you mentioned in the book your own journey of responding to the Call of the Wild and inhabiting your Inner Jaguar and Inner Predator. And I wanted to, because it's such a kind of instrumental and pivotal experience that you offer to your audiences through your activating the inner Jaguar course as well as in the book. And I wanted to start by asking you about your experience. What was that like for you to inhabit and embody your inner Jaguar, your inner. Thanks for asking about my book. This is one of my first podcasts about the book. So it's exciting and it's also exciting that you felt that you were listening to the book even though you were reading the book, because obviously reading is a neo frontal cortical activity and it's what I teach and how I learn is very much through the body. So it was a big challenge to, figure out how to invite someone into the experience because the entire framework is that we can talk about healing and we can think about healing, but it's really the body that has the story to the healing. So without engaging and perceiving the book through all of our senses, we probably won't get as much out of it as if we're willing to endeavor some of the practices. My own introduction to the Jaguar was that I was having, it's. I thought things were actually pretty okay with my daughter, but I went on a vacation with some friends and four of the adults wanted pizza, and my daughter wanted sushi, and she somehow convinced all the adults to have what she wanted. And then my friends told me afterwards, one of them in particular, who I respected a lot, you really, you're raising an authoritarian child and if you don't get a handle on it, it's really gonna be a disservice to her and it's gonna be a disservice to you. And because I'm a single parent and it was mostly just my daughter and I really hadn't recognized that pattern. 'cause I'm very flexible in my preferences. So it was easy for me to just go along with what she wanted and I didn't realize that she was getting dominant. So at the suggestion of that friend, and it heard a lot to hear that feedback as it usually does, to hear feedback about your children. I decided that I should talk to a somatic therapist about it. And when I did in the process of also, I also was working with a male therapist for the first time, I realized that I had worked with, for tens of years, like 15 years. I'd only had, I had one creepy male therapist one time in high school who eventually was, actually had his license taken away. But since that time, I'd only worked with women and I realized there was just something about that. I was like, there was some kind of fear about working with a man, and I knew that I needed that transference to be able to do my next piece of healing. So I brought the feedback from my friend to this practitioner. His name is Du Chevez. He lives in Rio. I'm gonna have him on my podcast, but he doesn't speak English, so I'm gonna have to do a Portuguese episode. It doesn't feel right to have my book come out without. Presenting him as well because he was such a huge piece of the healing for me. So at the time I explained to him, I feel, I'm feeling sorry for myself. I feel like I have to be the unconditional love and the discipline and it's so hard to be everything and legitimate single mother concerns. But at that moment, he just looked at me and said in Portuguese, you're a Jaguar El I'm from the Amazon. And this is actually true. He was from the Amazon. It's strange. First person I ever met from the Amazon, even in Brazil. And he said, look at you. You're golden and you're spotted. I have all these freckles and the mother cubs teach. Cubs to hunt. The mothers teach the Cubs to hunt. It's not the fathers who teach the Cubs to hunt. So go watch some Jaguar films and see how the mothers are handling the cubs and start to imitate that with your daughter. So at that time, he also reflected back on to me that when I would get angry or I would try to hold the boundary, I would use my eyes a lot. I would bulge my eyes, I would raise my eyebrows and lean my head forward. But it wasn't having the impact that, like my daughter wasn't paying attention to that level of assertiveness. And so he started to teach me how to use my whole body to convey that sense of authority, which ultimately, you know, my idea of being democratic and not wanting to be authoritarian, not really understanding relationship between the right hierarchy, because we really, I think most of us bulk at that in as a culture. We're in this period of trying to figure out how we want that relationship to be. I was just being much too verbal for a child of her age to understand. And as I started to physically dominate her in play roughhousing and playing different games, she began to feel much safer and listened the first time and, stopped sticking her finger, her hand up my shirt when I didn't want it there and really understanding what the rules were. Yeah. So it sounds like really embodying that authoritarian kind of mama Jaguar energy and physicality gave her a sense of confidence and assuredness safety and res and respect, it sounds kimberly in your work with dooo, is it Dooo? Dooo? Yeah, dooo, from what I recall it, it sounds like some of that involved actual physical engagement with him as well. Definitely. Where you got definitely to feel, definitely feel your predator ness rather than being always in the prey. At first I was in the prey because by default I would go into prey mode. So even the first time I went into his office, even just saying I didn't even know what I was really saying. I just said, I'm here to work on limits and boundaries with men. I just started crying and didn't stop crying really, for the rest of the session without telling any stories, without explaining any narrative of it. And then slowly he started to stalk me. So at first it was like, can I not freeze and can I get away and can I can I move and dance with that energy in cor of course, in a titrated way. But I feel that sometimes in like how I'm seeing trauma work being done now. It's either super cathartic or so so slow that there's not enough happens in a session or too much happens in a session. Whereas he really wasn't afraid to push me. He chased me around one time with a broomstick. Could I get under it? Could I get around it? Of course I knew on a meta level what was happening, but he was big enough and strong enough and he could occupy that predator well enough that I was, I did feel scared, but I needed that challenge to my system so that I learned to hold my ground and so that I would stand my ground instead of move away. And then eventually, I don't think with him I ever did occupy the predator. I did that myself with my daughter and then eventually with my clients, realizing that when I offered them to be the predator, they would automatically become the prey and realizing, oh, I need to teach women how to be the predator. But of course, that's a little different 'cause it's woman to woman. Rather than male to female. It's like a different dynamic. Absolutely. Absolutely. So it sounds like you arrived wanting to work on your experiences of boundaries with men, and so you chose specifically a male practitioner. That's right. I felt like I'd come to the end of the road with what I could do with female practitioners viscerally. I hear you physically. Yeah. Yeah. So really replacing those old stories with new stories by working with a male embodiment, a male energy. Yeah. I never really looked at it like that, so I also picked someone who was very somatically oriented. 'cause even within somatic practitioners, there can be people that are more polyvagal dynamic oriented, or people who are more movement oriented. So I chose someone who had a strong movement background and who also could taught me because I'm a practitioner myself, I am. Whatever, a super smart person. So it's easy for me. I'm a Wiley client and I, so I chose somebody who I knew could taught me, right? It's the most powerful work I ever did. I couldn't have done it another way, and I know that 'cause I tried a lot of other ways. I think it's just if perpetration happens through touch, I think you usually need touch for healing. If perpetration happens with men, I think often you would need healing with men. It's not, I also always wanna make the caveat. It's not that I wasn't having great relationships with men, even at that moment. I was having great relationships with men. It's just there was something underneath it that I felt that was still, there was still some kind of fear, insecurity, lack of trust that I needed to do in that space. And I just had that intuitive knowing. Yeah. Yeah. And he was also big, he's a big guy. So I chose someone also in physical stature that was similar to my perpetrator. So it's I knew that too, because there we're human animals. If somebody's actually stronger than you and bigger than you, there's a reason to be scared sometimes, even if they're a decent person. You can be overpowered. If you were to get into it, you would lose. And he also worked with my daughter, actually. She had a challenging relationship with her dad, and I felt like it would really help her to have a male practitioner and have her, have a male practitioner who is willing to deal with some of her anger and let her have her anger. So he was able to repair and allow her, without talking about it, because my daughter's also very verbal and has been from a young age. But underneath that, when you're feeling, and she had an incident of. Bullying where she actually got hit in the face. So he was able to help her really mobilize some of that fury and anger that I don't think would've got, it wouldn't have been gotten to in a different way. So it was a way of positively using transference. So it sounds like for both you and Cece, it was feeling the resource within your own nervous systems to respond in situations that maybe in past circumstances you did not or didn't feel like you could respond in the way you did with Dooo that started expanding your reclamation of your nervous system responses. Yeah, I think there was a lot of things that got completed that maybe I know what they are, and then there's probably a lot that got completed that I don't even know what they are. So I would love to so you know the activate your inner Jaguar course that you've been offering for years. Now it's in its eighth iteration. Did you just complete the eighth round? Eighth? We're almost on 10th. That's a lot of people. So I'm really curious how one, I'm curious about the evolution of the courses over 10 rounds, but I'm more curious about what has teaching the course taught you? Teaching the course has taught me that my impulse to expand the way that I learned trauma healing was right on. I was really afraid to move beyond a one-on-one model with something as delicate as trauma and as delicate as sexual trauma. As once Me Too Happened, or the second iteration of Me Too in 2017 and my wait list got so big, I just realized like I have to be able, there has to be foundational material here that I could teach many more people at one time because I would venture to say almost every single person needs help with embodied consent and really understanding where their nervous system is, especially with all the gray area about some of us starting to understand what fawning is, starting to understand what freezes, hearing stories about fawning and freezing, that's becoming, there's like movies out now like bombshell that's really all about fawning. Then there's Aziz Ansari where pretty much the woman was in a freeze state and then he's to blame and it's we can't actually, unless all of us have nervous system information, how can we expect someone to read someone else's nervous system? Disposition. Then respond to that. So I had men calling me and I had women calling me saying here's what happened. What do you think about this? Was I at fault? And it's we are, we're all in this soup. That's so much more nuanced than any of the dialogue that I see out there that we're questioning ourselves. We're questioning how we're doing things, are we getting what we want? And over the course of teaching this class, I've just seen that's like my hypothesis is true, that really uns shaming this information. Doing the healing as a group sometimes is even more impactful than doing one-on-one work. People learn from hearing other people's stories. They remember little fragments that they didn't remember before. They hear a wording of how someone asserts themselves and they think, oh, I could say that. I just didn't know how to say that. And there's all this positive mirroring that goes on in the process of slowly gaining new skills. My course is called Activate Your Inner Jaguar, a real world understanding of your nervous system and embodied consent. It's about sexuality, but it's about sexuality as an extension of how we're managing our life force and our energy. So sometimes at the beginning people are like, okay, when are we gonna talk about the sex part? But it's unless we actually can identify when we are in a freeze and communicate that we're gonna, we're gonna continue to have interactions where we have blind spots or we continue dissociating, or we drink more alcohol so that we can just get past the inhibition. We're gonna repeat those things because we don't have, we don't really know where we are. And when we dunno where we are, we dunno what belongs to us and what belongs to the other person. So it just ends up being this soupy thing of yeah, I didn't really want it, but I thought you wanted, no, I didn't want it. I wanted it because you wanted it. Wait, what are we even doing? So I really want as many people as possible because I do believe that a new, a newer world where all voices are respected depends upon this, that this real world understanding of our nervous system, which is not theoretical, it's visceral, becomes something that we all have language for. Yeah. So the benefit of a group dynamic where people can really recognize not only themselves in each other, but learn the differences of how nervous systems can respond and, can be embodied, both limitations and freedoms. So it's almost like in the group experience, you're not only learning about your own nervous system, but the range of possibilities of how nervous systems can be inhabited and respond and people personalize. As it's it's so gratifying when people come out of the spiral of self-judgment and self-loathing and they realize, oh, this isn't like a personality flaw, this is a physiological response. And when we know it's physiological, it's there, there's not really blaming us, it's just oh, this is what's happening right now. I sometimes I give sessions during the course and people can watch the sessions and it's awesome because when you watch a session, you get a lot of your, when one person gets regulated, everyone's getting regulated. Now, of course there is a possibility to get dysregulated too if you're getting pinged with someone else's information. But. Hopefully I'm doing a good enough job at the session that's not happening. But there was one session I gave where the person was just in a very deep free state and it was taking her minutes to answer my questions. And of course I was waiting and I was checking in with her and every once in a while and I was, watching how it was happening and tracking it. But the response after that session was so profound because people just had no idea that the reason that they couldn't have a back and forth conversation or the reason why they had to go away to come back to answer something was because it was a freeze date. And when they watched how I could just give time and space for that and that I wasn't interested in pushing past it or solving a problem or giving an answer, it really changed how people. Because theoretically people know it's different than therapy, but until you really experience, it's hard to understand what goes on in somatic work. We don't have a, we have TV shows that show therapy and show group therapy and we have kind of parodies of psychoanalysis in a way. And a lot of people have been in therapy, so they know. But unless you've actually had a somatic session, you are like, okay, body, but what does that mean? So watching that in real time, it just gave so many women permission of oh, that's what's going on. And then if I can give space to it, there it, I'm always trying to say, I legitimately am not trying to solve anyone's problem. I'm not like excavating in there to try to put the pieces together for you. I'm just listening. Reflecting back and having a conversation and your body is showing you and you're putting those pieces together, something you shared about how the understanding of the nervous system allows people and their physiological responses or their emotional responses allows us not to take things personally or make it about the personality or the person itself. You, you share in the book about how understanding the polyvagal theory impacted your, not only work with trauma, but understanding of the nervous system. For me, once I got once I understood the polyvagal theory, I just couldn't take people's nervous system responses personally because there was such an understanding as to what's really going on. Just because you it had a, an impact for you in the book of understanding the full context of really what's going on in a person and how to. Penate a client back from the red to the blue. Yeah, so the, those are two things. The polyvagal note, it changed a lot for me. I studied with Steve Hoskinson of Organic Intelligence. He was my somatic experiencing teacher, and then he went off and formed his own thing. But that was the practical application of polyvagal theory for me, because I realized when I was a body worker and a yoga teacher, really, because there's not a lot of back and forth dialogue as a Rolfer. I was just quiet the whole time I was working and when clients would talk, I wasn't annoyed by it, but I was just like waiting for them to stop talking because I felt like when they were talking, they were just distracting themselves from actually sensing what was going on. So there was this real dynamic of I'm the expert. I'm gonna do this thing to you. And then, every once in a while there would be dialogue that seemed related to the body, but I didn't really know how to guide that dialogue. And I was very comfortable with the silence because I was very comfortable being in a freeze state and a healthy freeze in an unhealthy freeze. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. I was in a sort of healthy freeze, but I wasn't in a relational space with the client. So when I learned with Steve how to have, back and forth chit chat and to understand that my preference for deep intensity was actually an activated nervous system state, I was able to really start in a different way with clients so that by the time we got to whatever the quote unquote problem was, if we did get to it, their system was already way deactivated because they were oriented in this space and because we had a rapport and I wasn't coming in as if I'm the expert or as if I. We're here to just solve the problem and solve the problem now, which is part of the problem itself is thinking we know what the problem is and not being able to zoom out at all from it. So that's how it worked in my practice. One-on-one practice in the group field, what I recognize and continue to recognize, because we're all impacted by the social nervous system, but some of us are impacted by it much, much more. Women tend to be much more impacted because estrogen is a bonding hormone. So I realized with polyvagal theory that especially women are really prone to what I call like the shadow side or the default mechanisms of the social nervous system. So when the social nervous system feels safe, we feel like we belong, we feel that we can be well differentiated. We feel like I can be my, freaky self and I'm not gonna be excommunicated. I'm still gonna be a part of my tribe. But on the other side. If we do feel under threat, then we have kind of two choices. And this is not so much straight on polyvagal theory as my take on it based on all of the people that I've worked with, is that we can either fit in, which means we we think fitting in is belonging. So that's where I don't really, I make myself invisible. I make myself small. I don't stand up, stand out in good or bad ways. I camouflage myself. I minimize. And that's where we feel like imposter syndrome. Like I just, I don't belong here. Like I don't, everyone else belongs and I don't belong. And literally almost every single people in my course, when I interview them after the course, I don't interview all of them. But some of them, they always say I'm not like the other people in the course. I'm not a yoga teacher, or I'm older than everyone else in the course. And they're usually not right. But they, it's just so ingrained that I must not fit in here. I think just because of where we are culturally that we've. Disintegrated so many of our organizing social systems further disintegrated by the pandemic that we just don't even know where we do belong. So there's fitting in and then there's the fawning, which has become more well known, which is I go closer to a threat. I'm nicer to the threat, I'm more polite. It has more to do with power dynamics. If we're talking about race, it would be like code switching. And Uncle Tommy, I'm gonna just be, I'm gonna make myself more like the person who has power, or I'm gonna make myself amenable to this power so that I don't get hurt. And so that's the one that's usually really judged hard because it looks like wait a minute. Like you went up to the hotel room and you're the one who you went back to this guy who's been abusing you. And now we know that to be a survival response, which is, if I am the person who has less power or less physical strength. Being closer to the threat is less of a threat than having a looming threat out there that might hurt me anytime. So I've really incorporated a lot of those pieces. I have a specific course just called Limits and Boundaries, which is about differentiation and about how to not fawn and how to not fit in and be able to claim your power and express yourself. And then really just creating a community of belonging where at least in the course, people do feel safe to express themselves in different ways and have different, aspects of themselves. Welcome. Yeah. There's a section in the book specifically I think called fawning and fitting in, or fitting in and fawning that covers that. Kimberly, you know what? I loved ab. There are many things I loved about the book. Because it is an invitation to experience one's own bodies, body and senses experientially. And because you do go layer by layer preparing the reader's nervous system, it's introducing readers to tracking, really to befriending our own nervous system responses to inviting us to pendulate amongst the different channels of how we integrate and absorb information to, to not stay stuck, to start to thaw out our different kind of conditioned and sometimes frozen like nervous system responses before we even get to an invitation to inhabit the predator space. And again, that's just to inhabit more freedom within our nervous system responses so that we can be authentic in how we relate with others. What was the process like for you to go from teaching the group experience online to transmitting it through the book? I definitely think I'm a better teacher than a writer. I've heard that even though it seems easier to take a course and make it into a book, a lot of people say that's a very big challenge. I hope that, as you mentioned, that it's layered. I hope it's interesting enough as it's layered to keep people involved. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think in speaking it's easy because I can use different kinds of examples. Oddly enough, apparently books on sex don't sell well. So my publisher really didn't wanna hit hard on the sexual examples and ah as the last chapter of the book, chapter nine, is called More Freedom in Sex, is the culmination of all of these principles and how they apply in sex. And that could just be its own whole entire book. The process, writing a book is just a really hard thing to do no matter what. It's. It takes a really long time. You keep thinking that it's over and it's not over. You read your own words and sometimes you think they're magnificent and other times you think they're ridiculous. And I think that all writers have a similar experience. So what I really care about is if you know it, if it gets good reviews, bad reviews, fine. What I really care about is if it helps people Sure. And that they can interface with it at the level. I used to really pre pandemic and, making as a somatic practitioner who did body work and was in yoga studios with lots of bodies is very strange for me to all of a sudden start working online Now, four years, five years into it, it seems a little more normal. And now the pandemic, it's been completely normalized, but it's a little bizarre to do body centered work virtually. But my hope is that some people who take the classes online, they say, I never could have done this in person. I would've been way too embarrassed. I would've been humiliated. I couldn't have shown up for it. So I hope that in this same way that maybe somebody gets the help from the book that they wouldn't get because they can't even fathom signing up for a course that has the word sexuality in it. They could never tell anyone that they were doing that, or or even trauma that would be admitting they had trauma and they can't admit that, that they could just, it's a beautiful book. The cover is beautiful. It was that was important to me. It was important to me that it wouldn't be someone like that. Someone will look at it and not be embarrassed to be reading it on the beach, that they would be like, no, I'm reading this thing. And that we could normalize. Trauma. That's, that is just a part of our human experience. The book can be experienced in so many different ways. It could be experienced as, a guide to becoming friendly and becoming intimate with one's nervous system. I think it could also be experienced as a guide to reclaiming your sexual health and wholeness, because all of the proceeding chapters, when we address reregulating and befriending our nervous system, we're really, as you say in the book, it's the motherboard or the switchboard to all the other systems. And I I finished chapter nine and I thought, she laid all the foundation for. Restoring healthy sexuality in a body. I'm amazed that there's still not such an understanding that the nervous system really is the switchboard, the command center for how we experience life itself. And I think in that way it's just so returning to our primal foundational roots. Does it surprise you that the nervous system isn't as well understood as it should be? Because it's almost like the filter through which we're, all of us are experiencing life. Yeah, I like to say that we're all just big nervous systems interacting with each other, and we think it's oh, I'm Kimberly and I'm a mom and I am a dancer and I'm interacting with you Rahi. And you're, you are an actor and you're a somatic practitioner and like to like our personalities that are talking to each other. But really it's our nervous systems that are sending all of these messages to one another and determining a lot of how we react and if we wanna move away from each other, or if we wanna move towards each other, or if we like or dislike each other. All those things. I guess in my world, I'm in the world where the nervous system is the new black, and I feel like anywhere I turn, all I hear about is the nervous system. But from a mainstream point of view, it doesn't surprise me because of the entire underpinnings of our whole over culture, which is mind over matter. So if your foundational belief that your religion is predicated on that the country is predicated on is that somehow our brain is more reliable than our body because bodies are matter and bodies are earthy, and bodies are less pure than spirit and mind, then why would you pay attention to it? Because it's not as important. And so that's a fundamental juxta juxtaposition that I'm trying to call into Question in the book is like what if our body does, the neuroscientists, they think you don't do anything without your brain. There's no experience, right? That's not filtered through the brain first. But what if there is? And why? Why do we have to be, why do we have to grip so hard onto this idea that it's all about our brain and our thought process when that's not taking us to good places? Not only us as human mammals, which, my focus is on women's health. So we're talking major reproductive. Fertility now versus 15 years ago is a giant industry. If a species can't reproduce, it dies out. That's what happens. Like we've, we're losing the ability, these innate human abilities, reproduction, all of the variations of endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome there's just so many things happening in female reproductive anatomy. Then we see what happens postpartum as a result of having no preventative care at all in place. So to me, it's like the, our bodies are the things that are telling us that the way that we're living is out of balance and therefore our bodies might have some wisdom to offer us about how to come more into balance. Yeah. And in your work it's I love how you do have that bottom up approach. How you're really listening for the signs and the stories that the body wants to tell, rather than letting that engagement be filtered through what the client thinks that the body wants to tell. Or even what we think sometimes as practitioners. 'cause sometimes there's easy connections to make. Like I tell the story in the book about the girl who got the IUD and then she started having, she didn't wanna have sex anymore after she got the IUD. To me, in my mind I'm like that's easy. That was probably a traumatic experience getting the IUD put in. The doctor was probably a jerk. She probably is in pain and her body probably wants to remove the IUD 'cause I've heard that story a lot of times. Bodies trying to expel IUDs because they don't want them in there anymore. But in this case, it was that she had an associative memory of an earlier surgery, a knee surgery when she was 13, and it was when she put her hands on her low belly and started to breathe into her womb space, which was at my invitation that her knee started to go numb and her whole lower leg went numb. And so her body gave us the breadcrumbs on the trail of how to do the repair. If I would've just gone through my mind, I could have given her a visualization about something or, invented something. But it wasn't, this was actually what her body's story was that needed to be attended to and completed. Yeah, so it's like going directly to the source, to the body, which is holding all of those stories and really guiding us as to what the root of the issue is. I thought it was interesting that the first two examples that you share in the book were both situations where the client came in assuming that it was a sexual trauma issue, and in fact, what the body had to tell was, I think in both situations, instances where its own authority was interrupted or denied. Kimberly have, it was that very common in your years as a hands-on practitioner where clients came in assuming that the issue was sexual trauma or a sexual related issue, and the body lo and behold revealed that it was something completely different. That's a really interesting point. I never thought about it like that. I really wanted to open the book with a story about either pregnancy or birth, because part of my mission in the book was to feminize the trauma world. In the trauma literature, it's almost all men and most of the examples are fairly extreme in the books if they are about sexual abuse in women has been my perception. So that was the key of that story. For sure, I wouldn't say that people who know they've had sexual abuse and come in and wanna work on that, that it ends up being something else. But there is, in the last 20 years, there's been so much visibility brought to sexual abuse and sexual harassment. There are many women who have symptoms. Let's say they have vaginismus where their vagina is very tight and closed and they don't know why. And so they're assuming that maybe they were sexually abused, but they don't know. And maybe someone says, oh, your body's acting like you were sexually abused, or you act like a sexually abused person. That has happened quite a few times. And then it would turn out, oh, no, they had an abortion, and after the abortion, their body seized up. Or they had a cesarean in their vagina seized up and they were confused because they had a cesarean. Why would that affect their vagina? I get a little prickly when I hear you say it because I, there was, in no way am I trying to negate the frequency or gravity of women's sexual trauma. I was a little worried actually with the book because originally, it doesn't, the title's not how we heal sexual trauma. So I didn't say I'm gonna help you heal sexual trauma in the book. But I was a little concerned that someone who was picking it up for that reason might not have as much as they wanted in the book. However, as I mentioned, from the point of view of my editors and wanting to reach a large audience, if it was too heavy upfront with sexual abuse stories, people might not even make it farther in because it was, our earlier versions of the introduction had more of like my own personal trauma history in it. Which I am a sexual assault survivor, and I also had the very tenuous relationship with a guru that crossed a lot of different boundaries. So it actually wasn't that I wanted to reveal less about myself. It was that. To walk someone into a process that I felt was responsible without another practitioner there. Where and my other experience though for sure, is that many people might have one event or more than one event that, that they can consider to be highly traumatic. But the dynamics and iterations of that happen in many different ways. And so they will even happen in the present moment. And if we work with it in the present moment, we actually don't have to go back to that earlier moment. So it's a twofold answer. Number one, I hope people don't take that, those examples are dismissing that women have very real sexual trauma. Experiences and the renegotiation chapters, which are chapters five and six, do invite someone to go into a situation in the present moment where they could do a past repair. And the invitation is open enough that they could choose a birth. They could choose a gynecological process, they could choose a miscarriage, they could choose a bad sexual experience or a violation. But the other main thing that I really want out of the book and that I don't know also if thoroughly came through, is that predator and prey are on a spectrum. So as we were saying that nervous systems relate to each other, that means predator and prey don't exist without each other. So if we are highly. Wired into prey mode, the predator energy escalates and oftentimes approaches much more. And that doesn't, it's not law of attraction, and it doesn't mean like people deserve it or anything, it's just how it actually works. And we can observe it all the time. And so I wanted to take this, what I considered to be a, like a 5% off feminist miss, which is this idea like hashtag believe survivors, which means anytime a woman feels threatened or expresses a grievance that we just bel hashtag believe it. Because I think it, it takes out the relational part of this, which is that most women who are being perpetrated against, a lot of times the person acting out the perpetrator is not trying to perpetrate. And in the social justice work, people would say impact is different than intention and all those things. Okay? But if, especially if we're talking about within relationships or dating and we're not talking about stranger situations, what happened in the Me Too movement, what I saw happen was that everything from being catcalled to having childhood sexual abuse got thrown in the same and having it in the same bucket. As a practitioner, as we deal with those things very differently. Those dynamics are very different. How we would approach helping someone heal from that would be very different. So I'd never believe in premature forgiveness, which is to me just a variation on spiritual bypassing. I absolutely believe that women. The whole book is about we need healthy aggression, we need predator energy. We've said we've been conditioned to be nice, to be polite, and we're expected to have collapse or panic responses. Whereas men are expected to have fight responses. And this is a broad overview that doesn't traverse every culture or every person's individual experience. But I do think that the terrain is vast and there is, we're in this period of renegotiation and redefinition, and I really want women to know what we do have the power to change. And that's why I called it our own power. I don't believe that until we occupy our own power that we can change the larger power structures. I don't believe that the people who have the power. Really care that much about the people who don't have the power. And so they're not, they're just sitting around protecting their own interests. They're not sitting around aggressively trying to put other people down, I don't believe. But until as the people who don't occupy the structural power wake up to how much power we actually do have, then that's when I think we get to the next level of collective change. And that's what I'm ultimately advocating for. Yeah, I think that's really clear in the book at the very end. And I wanna reflect back to you, Kimberly, that having read your book I believe that you, I believe that you satisfy your publisher's desire not to make it about sexual trauma and sexual healing. But at the same time, it's very much about sexual healing. Meaning that the practices and somatic engagement. And the way you illuminate how to change channels, create new neural pathways to somatic responses how to expand one's capacity for erotic charge. I feel like all of those things, like if someone were to just follow the book, their sexual trauma would be invited to engage and integrate. There are plenty of opportunities in there for previously stagnant charge to discharge without the reader really realizing or necessarily intentionally choosing to resolve that particular trauma. I wanted to ask you about, 'cause there's a section specifically about expanding and increasing your capacity to hold charge. And I know you've been working with clients and audiences around their capacity to receive money and I wanted to ask you whether you see it as being one and the same, whether it's simply a capacity to feel safe in receiving higher, a higher voltage of energy, whether it's erotic charge or abundance in, in financial material gain. I think it's definitely related. I think some people can do it well sexually and can't do it that well with money. I think other people can do it well with money but can't do it that sexually. So I don't think it necessarily maps over. I do wanna say that the majority of people who work with me, not all of them, but many of them, are a lot like me in some way. So they're either a yoga teacher, Pilates teacher, bar teacher, former dancer sexological body worker. They're people who already have some kind of somatic awareness. They also tend to be parasympathetically dominant, so they tend to be more elastin in their connective tissue, which is probably why they chose those. Activities in the first place, or at least part of it, tend to be empathetic, tend to be highly sensitive, tend to really care about, like really deeply care about other human beings and animals. And therefore tend to be in the prey category most of the time and have a very v and probably have been perpetrated against at some point, which most women have. So they tend to really, this word perpetrator even is just deeply offensive to their system because they don't wanna be associated with that thing that harmed them or any harm at all. That said, the capacity to hold charge is like the willingness to pendulate into that predator space and see that as natural organic behavior that's not inherently threatening to your identity, which then becomes the social nervous system issue. Can I be a midwife and not be a martyr? Can I have less or can I can I have less than the rest of my family has, or can I have more than the rest of my family has? Will I be safe if I earn more than everyone in my family ever has, or if I buy a house or what are, what's my community, what's my nonprofit community gonna think about me if I write sales emails? So I do feel like it does have to do both with capacity and with these primary identity issues of, what does it mean if I say I like sex? Or what if it means that I say I don't wanna have sex right now? It depends on what you're. I always use a lipstick example because for some women wearing red lipstick is a really big deal and it makes them exposed and it sexualizes them and it invites attention and they're like, Ooh, I don't know. For others not wearing red lipstick is a really big deal because they've used that to attract attention and it's a bit of a mask that they have in public, so to not wear it feels overexposed and they're not sure about it. So we expand capacity by figuring out what's a little bit in that direction and how we stretch into it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think yeah, I think that's the invitation that Call of the Wild really offers is expanding your capacity to where. Lipstick as much as you want, when you want, and to be without it as much as you want when you want. But having that freedom and the authentic expression of how your life force wants to engage, experience, and relate with the energies around us. Totally. And I think the other thing I would add to that is I see a lot in the sexuality world, these invitations for self pleasuring. Do a self embodiment practice, a self erotic practice, a self pleasuring practice, and these kinds of things like well wear lipstick for yourself, like you decide don't do it for other people or don't not do it for other people. I'm fully on board. I think self-pleasure practice is necessary. I think deciding what you wanna wear and how you wanna dress for yourself is also necessary. But I'd also like to say that I. There's strategy, and strategy is part of predator energy. So again, we don't, most people don't like to hear about strategy, like before we were gonna talk, I changed my clothes. I was wearing a cashmere brown sweater, super comfortable. I was feeling very loungy alone here in my apartment for the moment. But it's but hold on. I'm doing an interview and if I show up in bright colors, people are gonna pay attention more. And I am, I'm not camouflaging, I'm standing out, right? And on my website, I wear red lipstick. Do I wear red lipstick all the time? No. I do wear it when I wanna wear it, but when I'm pre presenting something, I usually have a juxtaposition between a high neck shirt and red lipstick or something that's portraying what I wanna portray to the world. And. Strategy matters. If you wanna make money and you wanna have sexual autonomy, then there is a, an element to strategy and how we show up for things. And it's definitely my conditioning 'cause my parents were big on dressing up and dressing up for school specifically. Like in college, I wore suits to my tests when everyone else was wearing pajamas and sweats. College totally sweats. Yeah. Yeah. But to me it also is about that, people bad mouth, heels a lot. I find them terribly uncomfortable because I never got used to wearing them. So I never in my life have I ever worn heels on a regular basis. So putting them on I, I borrowed some from my mom the other day and I was like, oh my God, I don't know how people do this. But when you put on heels, you feel powerful. It activates your back line. It pumps up your calves that's a mobilization response. And so there's a purpose for an embodied purpose for doing it. So I just want people to take away from it that all of these little things are about understanding what's happening in our nervous system. Yes. To strategize, to, go out to wear the lipstick to it is predator. It does invite the full spectrum of what our nervous systems may want to engage in, express an experience. And what your book is offering, I think is an exploration and to play with that full spectrum so that there is no impediment, obstacle or limitation to how we engage and relate with each other in the li and in our lives. Kimberly. Thank you so much for spending your time with us today. To close off, I wanna ask, I'm wondering, there's so many somatic exercises and invitations for exploration in the book. Is there one in particular that you would like to share that would invite listeners to embody a deepening sense of sexual vitality? I like simple connected breathing. I feel like it builds charge pretty fast, and it's an easy way to see how your own system responds to that charge. So breathing to me is the simplest way because you can, in a few breaths, you can invoke a state, and then from that state you can see what happens next. For me, when I started learning connected breathing, sometimes I would start to yawn a lot right away, which is a parasympathetic downregulation. Sometimes I would just notice I don't wanna do it, and or my body would just spontaneously stop doing it and I would just go into a spontaneous freeze the minute I started building activation. So again, it's a way to not intellectualize and just practice. So do you wanna try that? Yeah, let's do that. Okay. So I think we can just do 10 breaths and connected breathing is when you take in about 80% of your total lung capacity, and then you don't have pauses after your inhale or your exhale. So you just let the breath kind of turn into a circle, almost like if you're riding a bike and at first you have to pedal hard and then it just gets going. You can breathe all your air out to begin with. And we can do this through your nose or your mouth. I'm gonna do this through my nose, and then you can breathe into a comfortable level. I hope you can hear me so that you can just follow along and we'll do five more, and then we'll just slow it down a little bit. Take a bigger breath, push it out. Another bigger breath, push it out. Last one, inhale, hold it at the top, and then just slowly let it drip out, but don't push it out. And then just pause. So you'll be like, it's like you're jumping on a cloud and you'll just be landing on the cloud, and so you'll feel that there's still some breath in your system. As you pause, see if you can flick the switch of your brain and go dark. Drop your attention downward and inward. Feel if your body wants breath first or your mind wants breath first and hold for 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Breathe out a little bit more and then a non panicked inhale, pause at the top. Feel what it's like to feel full notice. If you like that better or worse, then the hold after your exhale, and then just let your breath go. And notice how you feel overall zooming out to your whole body. Sometimes you'll feel spontaneous movements start to wanna happen, like serpentine movements in your spine. Sometimes emotions will come up or images. So I find this is just a way to get underneath our rational thought, right? We, and we all know when we're driving ourselves crazy with repetitive thoughts in one way that we can shift out of that or build capacity for more arousal is starting to build more capacity for charge like this. Awesome. Thank you for that. Kimberly Ann Johnson, the book is is available now for pre-release, but will it be released in April of this year? Yes. April 13th. So April 13th you can purchase it before that date to reserve your copy, which is actually a good idea. Authors love pre-orders, but also publishing is in a very strange moment because of the pandemic. So it's totally possible that we might sell out a first run or that it won't be available. So it is a good idea to pre-order. And you can do that in any independent bookstore as well as Amazon. You can also, a great thing to do is just to ask your library to order it or ask your local bookstore to order it. Yes. So it's called Call of the Wild, and we'll have it in the show notes along with maga mama um.com, where Kimberly offers an amazing podcast as well as a whole range of different embodiment trauma informed classes and courses. And is there a link to the Breath Collective on your site too? I'm remaking my website, so it's gonna be Kimberly Ann Johnson dot com and then our breath collective, OUR breath collective.com is a breathing collective where there's about 180 of us who breathe every day at 6:00 AM Pacific time. But you, but they're up all day so you can breathe anytime Monday through Friday with us. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. And this is all, all to serve a greater resource within our nervous systems as well as other benefits. Kimberly, thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you. We've been speaking about the nervous system today, but how is yours feeling and your embodiment right now? Can you notice your breath and how it affects your body on its natural inhale and natural exhale, and how present and aware you are of your body's sensations. What feels best in your body right now, and is bringing your attention there to its pleasure. Expand that feeling of goodness for you. In the next episode, we engage with Dr. Betty Martin, whose pioneering work. The wheel of consent has revolutionized the ways in which hands-on practitioners and curious bodies distinguish our experiences of giving, receiving, taking, and allowing. And in her new book, the Art of Receiving and Giving the Wheel of Consent, she further distinguishes the subtle terrains of embodiment, pleasure, voicing the boundaries and consent of the body, and the inherent intelligence that comes from these simple yet profound practices. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) #### [Dr. Liam Snowdon](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Trauma & Nervous System Healing **Tags:** embodied sexuality, Jaguar, Kimberly Anne Johnson, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, sexual sovereignty, sexual trauma recovery --- ### [Trauma Lives in the Body: Somatic Healing & Recovery – Becky Carter](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) **Published:** November 26, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Thanks to Becky's many areas of expertise, we cover a lot of ground in this episode including how to identify pre-verbal traumas in the body, resolving issues specific to male sexual trauma survivors, how compounding injuries of racial and sexual abuse and/or aggressions experienced by marginalized communities affect the nervous system and holding space for their resolution, and working with adoptees and their families - all from a somatic approach and awareness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Trauma Lives in the Body (with Becky Carter): Somatic Healing & Recovery # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how trauma is stored in the body and how it shapes emotional, relational, and sexual patterns. You’ll learn how somatic healing supports nervous system regulation and lasting transformation. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/BeckyCarterPic1-scaled.jpg "Becky Carter Headshots | Rahi Chun") [BeckyCarter’s web-site ](http://www.beckycarterlcpc.com/) [Male Survivor.org](http://www.malesurvivor.org/) [1in6.org](http://www.1in6.org/) About Today’s Guest: Becky is a trauma therapist with 20+ years experience in helping both women and men heal the wounds of relational trauma that occur in-utero and beyond. She is a member and presenter with the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, a Somatic Experiencing Therapist and is Trained in Transformative Touch Therapy. Becky specializes in treating Racial Trauma, Sexual Trauma and has a special dedication to supporting adoptees and their families. Becky facilitates the Men’s Trauma Collective, a group for male survivors of sexual trauma. Becky presents in the community on various topics including Somatic Impact of Systemic Racial Trauma.![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Screenshot_20210919-205945_Office-1-1024x598.jpg "Screenshot_20210919-205945_Office (1) | Rahi Chun") ## What You’ll Learn About Trauma in the Body & Somatic Healing $ “It wasn’t until I got in my own body, and did the work to see where I was holding the stories, the narratives, what were pre-verbal… that I could understand the depth of what I’d experienced, what was stuck in my body, where my fight response was drawn to,… and so that embodied work led me to the somatic focus in all of these areas..” $ How Becky’s relationship with her Father informed her curiosity, compassion, and inquiry about traumatized, vulnerable men and led to her supporting and empowering men to advocate for their needs. $ How receiving regulation support from a safe co-regulated other, and receiving somatic touch in support of the vagus nerve can help transform trans-generational and pre-verbal traumas and their effects on the body’s unconscious responses from a lot of “I don’t knows” to “my body is telling me this.” $ How to recognize and identify unconscious bodily responses that do not correlate with what is occurring in the present moment as clues to whether sexual violations may have been experienced pre-verbally. $ How challenges unique to male sexual trauma survivors can include feeling isolation, a lack of professional understanding & resources, and minimizing the sexual traumas of young men or boys as rites of passage. $ How the intersection of racism, sexual violation, and/or of being the “other” can compound the injury, shame and defense responses within the body’s nervous system, and can lead to habitual “fawning” or “appease” responses in social and sexual interactions. $ How a body’s nervous excitement from engaging in new sexual activity can become confused with nervous anxiety from a sympathetic fear arousal response triggered from past traumas. $ How a lack of professionally-trained somatic experts – who have the lived experiences and understanding of how compounding racial and sexual aggressions can affect behavior, embodiment and life choices – is part of the systemic challenge of providing all of our society with effective resources. ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [How honoring the pace of trust in trauma healing leads to their release from the body ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [How healing childhood sexual imprints ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints/)[changes our adult intimacy behaviors ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) [The keys and principles for reclaiming pleasure after sexual trauma](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work:** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In today's episode, we welcome Becky Carter Somatic experiencing therapist and trauma specialist whose areas of expertise includes resolving preverbal and transgenerational trauma, resolving sexual trauma for all genders, with a particular expertise with men, understanding the somatic effects of racial trauma. And working with adoptees and their families. How can we identify preverbal or transgenerational trauma in the body? What are issues more specific to male sexual trauma survivors? How does the intersection of racial and sexual abuse and aggressions felt by marginalized communities have a compounding effect on the nervous system? We explore. Becky's work with these themes and populations and her experiences and insights for how to hold a safe space for the resolution. Today I am very excited to welcome Becky Carter to the podcast Becky and my paths. It's really interesting. It's almost like the universe wanted our paths to cross, and I'm so excited and grateful that, that it has, it was really delightful to recognize how so many of our areas of interest and. Specialties overlap and I just love talking to her. Becky has been a trauma therapist with over 20 years of experience with very interesting focuses. So they include healing relational trauma that occur in utero and beyond with a special expertise with repairing complex trauma, dissociation, and sexual abuse. She has a special dedication for supporting adoptees and their families and facilitates groups for both male and female sexual abuse survivors, and also leads workshops on healing the wounds from systemic racial trauma. Somatically. Becky identifies as biracial, cisgender transracially. Adopted female with ancestors from West Africa and from Sicily, and serves as a therapist at the Family Resilience Group in Arlington Heights, Illinois. The website there is family resilience.org. Becky, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here and I do love that the universe has aligned us into this moment in this conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Yes. Yes, me too. I've been looking forward to it for months now after our conversation. Becky I wanted to start by, just so our audience has a sense of your journey and your background specifically in regards to these really interesting areas of expertise. Can you share a little bit about your journey and how these areas of interest and expertise. Evolved and led you to doing a deep dive in these different areas. Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting because I do think that. I have not necessarily consciously chosen all of these paths. I think they've chosen me, in terms of what I was gonna study, what I was populations I've wanted to work with. I definitely feel as I've looked at the last, I'd say decade of my life, and I've really been honing things in a little bit more with my work like. It's all come into my field of reference, and then I feel like I am the clients come to me, the topics come to me, and then I'm able to sustain in those areas, in supporting populations specific vulnerable populations. What I've come to realize though, is that it's all really connected to my. Past experiences, my past traumas, things that I've been trying to figure out for myself. I was adopted into my family a biracial 10 month old going into an all white family. And prior to that adoption had spent a short amount of time in foster care, but during that time, went through what. My body has come to tell me relationally I've come to known as a, a combination, most likely of sexual and physical abuse, and so really landing into a very unique situation of being parented. By people who don't look like you, right? In a world that oppresses brown people, right? With some early developmental injuries and the primal wound of adoption, and then I think a long journey of getting to. Know and understand my father, who is also a man who struggled for different reasons he's now deceased. But I had a very intentional kind of attachment relationship with my father. He was very fearful of men going into my adoptive family. And it took a long time for me to be able to trust my father. And then we had a bit of a tumultuous relationship. As a result of his drinking. But then came to this beautiful place where in our later, his later years of life, my years, I was really starting to hone in on what I was gonna be doing in the trauma field as a clinician of just recognition of each other, embracing each other, understanding each other, our complexities and. So for a long time, I've had a lot of curiosity about traumatized vulnerable men, right? And how to build relationships and advocate for my needs with men, and then also to support men and advocating for their needs. And and also I think just the journey of, not knowing my birth father not knowing my birth family and kind of seeking relationship and attachment with my adoptive father when things were a little more challenging. So now that, I look back, I can see. Where all of these focuses, have emerged from. And and then it was just a little bit about getting to the place where I'd done enough of my own therapy to realize how I wanted to work with some of these populations adoptees, male survivors, sexual trauma, racial trauma. That it really needed to be in an embodied way. 'cause it wasn't until I got in my own body and did the work to see where I was holding the story, the narratives, what was preverbal, what was traumas for later on my life that it wasn't until I touched into my nervous system and my own body that I could understand. The depth of what I've experienced, what was stuck in my body. Where my fight response was drawn to. And and so that embodied work really led me to the somatic focus in all of these areas. Wow. That's really fascinating. Becky. Thank you for sharing all of that. There's so many things there that I wanna follow up with. One, one of the things that stands out and that's really fascinating is. How you were able to somatically, recognize, identify, and work with a dysregulated nervous system from traumas that were pre-cognitive. It seems to me like that is one of the areas that, that you work with addressing repairing trauma, either in utero or it even sounds like transgenerationally that. Shows up in someone's nervous system. So I was curious about the TTT transformative touch therapy. Yes. I'm fascinated with the DNA research that's coming out that is showing how in our DNA, past trauma, transgenerational trauma is carried from one generation to the other. Can you speak to how you facilitate that experience of clients who. Have a, whose behavior indicates that there's some trauma, either transgenerationally or prem memory. And how you work with that for clients to help resolve that from their nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna do my best here, right? Sure. One of the things that I learned from Steve Terrell who developed this model of transformative touch therapy with a training he has titled, transforming the Experience-Based Brain, which I love that, right? That the brain is holding an experience, that there's not a verbal, awareness of, and so one of the things that I've, he says is that when you are working with a client who's clearly struggling and brings you a lot of, I don't knows, right? And it, it and it may be something that you might think as a therapist that I could extrapolate just from what you're telling me, like what might be going on for you. But they seem very stuck, right? They're stuck in an, I don't know that there's something they're trying to access that they can't access. There's some barrier there or that they're, when you're talking to them, you almost have a sense that there's a very young part. That is starting to show up in the room. And I, for me, that as a therapist, it shows up in my own system as I, I'm drawn to a more nurturing energy. I feel a little bit more like I am. Wanting to bring a different tenderness or gentleness to the dialogue. I can see almost the embodiment in some clients of going into younger parts. Maybe their hands go from being open to fisted like we do when we're little. Or they might curl up a little bit in their chair as they're talking almost becomes smaller. And so that you're starting to see that there's an embodiment and that there is something that is being held in the nervous system that the client's not aware of but there's clearly something that is creating distress to be accessed. And so the work is really just allowing for these very slow titrated moments. A little bit at a time of allowing for clients to, to start to consider that their body has a story to tell. And doing that in a way that you are helping them access what their body might be trying to tell them while also resourcing them in the present. Moment of therapy and that attachment, right? And so that, I notice, there's this small kind of movement that you're doing with your body. It looks like there's a lot of vulnerability there. And at the same time, you're here with me, and this adult body and we're, there's an attachment here. There's things that we've secured in this therapeutic relationship to ground you as you start to go back into these very vulnerable moments and that. And that once we have enough safety in the therapeutic relation, we can relationship, we can touch into those parts of the nervous system, literally with our hands to support regulation so that the client isn't forced to have to talk through it, right? So we support the kidney adrenals, right? We support the brain stem. Which connects to that vagus nerve that flows down through our body and all our vital organs that, that can tense up and get constrained in response to trauma, right? That we support the vagus nerve. We support joints. Things that help help us feel more embodied and anchored and resourced. And it's just a very slow going of supporting regulation and allowing clients to go from, I don't know, to, my body's telling me this. And me noticing that your body's doing this in response to a certain type of stress or activation or threat. And supporting a settle in the body. With a safe co-regulate other. That is so beautiful the way you described that. It's really creating that safe sanctuary for the inner. Child or inner infant. To feel safe enough to. Really be present and to be witnessed, and then to bring the kinds and quality of support that was probably lacking. Yes. And for those who are listening and not seeing when Becky says support the cranial base or the kidney adrenals it is supporting with touch and it's a simple it's simple, but so profound when an infant or a child is in need and. Is feeling not secure. Just having that presence in touch can be profoundly reparative. Becky, I wanna ask you, since this, I'm fascinated with all of this, but because the podcast focuses on sexual health and wholeness, what are the kinds of. I'm curious, so for you, you had mentioned that there were indications that there may have been sexual or physical abuse when you were in foster care, whether it's your own situation or what you witnessed with your clients. For people listening who may suspect that something inappropriate or violations may have happened, prem memory. How do you recognize some of these things show up in your clients? Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I noticed for myself is that I would have certain. Embodied reactions to different type of types of situations. And so whether it was different medical procedures that I had to go through, or, situations where I was experiencing pain in the body with uncertainty, right? And having a very visceral, embodied, panicked reaction, with a lot of. Shut down and constriction of things like the kidney, adrenals and all the things that we don't need when we are in fight mode, right? We don't need to be using our GI system as much when we are going into fight mode, right? And so recognizing that when I came into. Contact was something threatening that my GI system, my body would just shut down and give out a little bit, right? And collapse underneath the presence of a perceived threat, right? Or perhaps a trigger. So it was that my body would have this very reflexive reaction that wasn't necessarily matching. What was going on in my life. And so reflexive that it's not like I could stop it, right? It just happens, right? And then the shame that would come with that, right? And, but. Working through, wait, your body has something to say here, right? In response to certain contacts or interactions. You have this this somatic reaction and noticing that in my clients too. That they, it, it would look a little bit like a client saying that they're, they notice when they go into an intimate relationship, a sexually intimate relationship that, they might notice a reflexive constriction in the body or certain parts of the body, or that the pelvis always, kinda, the pelvic floor always seems a little strained, a little bit tight. Or they may find that, they float outside of the body and disconnect and dissociate a little bit. Or there's a coupling of. Instead of, somebody doing something which should be sexually pleasurable, that the body receives it as painful. So that there's a coupling of pleasure and pain. Instead of, I'm going to do something that ideally, a partner would think would feel good for the other person and induce pleasure or arousal it, it reduces pain and it induce a shutdown or a collapse even in the sexual system. So those are some examples. Those are great examples. Yeah. Yeah. And what I'm recognizing in what you're sharing, Becky, is that to recognize how the body is going into protective, defensive, or shutdown mode, it does require a certain level of. Awareness in one's embodiment. And I think part of the irony is, I think so many of us do avoid feeling in our bodies when it is unpleasant. Yes. For good reason. Overwhelm of shame and, people obviously numb themselves with various, there's so many means to numb ourselves here in this society, but to really recognize and to start. That healing journey, it does require one, to pay attention to their body and their body signals and what it is the body has to say. Yes. And it is extremely difficult after sexual trauma. Most traumas, it's difficult to look at the body reaction, but especially after sexual trauma and that so much of the work is. Is allowing for the body to speak and the client to stay with what the body is trying to tell them without becoming overwhelmed, right? So creating enough embodied resources. Where your body do you normally feel positive? Where in your body do you. Sometimes maybe feel a little bit lighter safer less pain, less fear. And it may be as much as a tiny little finger tip, right? Or is there something outside of you, outside of your body that you notice anchors you and feels good? And can you just take a moment to take whatever that is in and just peek into your body's response to positive. Resourcing, right? And that if we can get to know what our body does, and, reflexively in some less overwhelming ways and less activating ways, becomes a little bit easier to look at how our body holds pain and trauma and to hear the stories that our body wants to tell us. That can give us a lot of ideas about how to heal and how to repair, and what the antidote to all that pain is gonna be. Sure that Sure starts to surface. Yeah. Yeah. The infinite wisdom of the body really can guide us in our healing journey. It's really a I love the, under underscoring, the importance of finding the, where your body is resourced. And where you are resourced relationally as well to support that body resource. And the irony, I've shared this in other podcasts, I, 'cause I see it often, it's like when someone has had a pattern of. Let's say an unhealthy or violent relationship. And finally they get to a sa, a safe relationship. That's when the trauma feels safe enough to come to the surface. And sometimes it can be very confusing yes. To the person when all they're feeling all of this emotion that's just been buried, but it actually, it's the safety of this new relationship. And it could be the resource of a therapeutic relationship, certainly as well, where so much repair happens. Becky, I wanna a, I wanna shift and ask you in your work with groups of men and sexual trauma, it's touching and it makes so much sense how your dynamic and relationship with your father has led you to this deep empathy and desire and curiosity. Understand the challenges within men, essentially. And your work with male sexual trauma survivors. What are the unique challenges to men who have experienced sexual trauma? And don't know what to do about it. Yeah. I think one of, and it's it all gets me, sad to think that one of the unique challenges is just recognizing traumas there. Because I think for a lot of male survivors, what. What they experienced that was traumatizing was either in incredibly minimized or it was looked at as some kind of rite of passage that, oh, you're so young to have this exce, this sexual experience and lucky you, right? Lucky you that, you were able to experiment sexually right? In situations that, other little boys or young men didn't get to. And there's this misinterpretation of early, young sexual interaction for boys and men as being something that they should, be proud of. And I, I fault our society for sending that message. And I think, so for some of the men I've worked with, it's been about recognizing that was not okay, right? First of all, looking at the relational dynamic in which the, sexual abuse occurred, looking at where they were developmentally, how much manipulation and coercion was there, and helping 'em understand that they were. A victim of something that something was done to them that shouldn't have been happening. And all the ways in which their body has stored that, this sense of that wasn't okay. And your body's letting you know that wasn't okay. It's showing up relationally, in your adult life that everything that you went through was not okay in terms of the struggles you have. And so there's the initial recognition. Which is challenging. There's this belief that there's actually people out there in the therapy world who can address this issue, right? I think a lot of men feel like, oh, most sexual trauma therapists work with women, right? They don't and. That kind of concern that there won't be an understanding of the uni unique complexities that men are gonna bring. Most of the men I've worked with they're in my office initially because there's anger. They've been betrayed somehow, and it's triggered a some memories or kind of a repression. Things that have been repressed are starting to surface regarding sexual trauma. And so creating spaces where men can feel like they could disclose someti something that was sexually violating. And how his therapists were always thinking about that. That if we have, eight to 10 male clients on our caseload, are we considering if they haven't disclosed that perhaps statistically two or three of those might be survivors. And are we speaking in a way that would allow for something that vulnerable and that shame inducing to be disclosed? And so that's really. Tricky. And just knowing that, there's other men out there. I think a lot of men feel incredibly isolated. Yes. That, other men are not talking about this, they're not, or that there's a, they will be judged even if they come into a group context, by the other men in the group. And or they've been judged by therapists or min, their situations have been minimized by therapist in the past. It's a lot of barriers. The biggest is for most trauma, shame. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's really interesting as you're sharing all this, I'm just having these memories of of PE during junior high school and at that tender age when a boy's body is turning into a young man's body, how much peer pressure there is to prove that you are manly and just how much bullying and rising, raising and all of that. And so I can so easily see how these abuses of power dynamics when one is a young boy or a young man, can be chalked up as a rite of passage or even as something to show off about when in fact the effect in the person's body is a shutdown, is an inability to have a healthy erection or yes or invite intimacy. Yeah. And or to not and to not be, there's so much especially depending on age of trauma that, if you're starting to get curious about your body, if you're starting to, things are shifting hormonally and yeah, you're shifting and growing and changing and there's hair and things are getting bigger and the voice is changing and you have feelings you didn't have before and that when all those things are awakening. And ideally blossoming. The ideal situation is you are, you're not shamed with all those develop developmental changes as a man. You're, it's celebrated. You get to have conversations about him, and what you're, and the normalization of everything you're feeling, right? And if right at that time you are. Either by, a another male or a even female. The majority of my survivors that I work with, the male survivors also have female perpetrators. If you're, if you are being treated in a way that you know right at this time where you're coming into kind of a sexual awareness that you are having to compromise things that. Don't feel good to you. Boundaries are being thwart, thwarted and and violated. If you are being you're starting to get confused about things that feel good, but also feel painful at the same time. And that, and that the things that your body's naturally doing, like having an erection or having ejaculating in a situation that is terrifying, right? What that creates in adulthood. Yes. Every time I become aroused and I get excited, I am terrified. And the challenges that creates in relationships for men, and that often is what comes in the door and in the best of our, my group experiences, that's what. When survivors have spent enough time together, can talk about those incredibly vulnerable pieces. I imagine the healing that happens when members of the group recognize their own experience being reflected in someone else's share like that. Yes. Like something so vulnerable and to a lot of people embarrassing as ejaculating when they're in an intimate situation and it's all based on that initial imprint. I think imprints are so powerful, our first, whatever it is. And I'm working with a colleague who's kind of specialty is all around touch receptors and our very first touch imprints that happen. Yes. And how that can really lay a foundation for patterns into adulthood. You bet, Becky, just for listeners out, if there are male listeners who are being inspired by this, how can they find male support groups, the kind that you facilitate? What, what's a way for men to find support groups like that? I'm gonna be honest, it's very hard. By the time people landed in, in my office or, on my Zoom calls, it was after lots of searching. There are several different organizations, websites that are, have been doing ongoing support for male survivors. There's men healing.org. There's one in six.org, male survivor.org. I am one of, probably like two other therapists in the Chicagoland area who run groups for male survivors of sexual trauma. We all know about each other 'cause there's so few of us, right? And there's a lot of platforms where you can do things online or you can do things. Chat rooms or, things like that. But finding spaces where you can do in-person or more intimate zoom work. Therapeutic work is a lot harder. One because it's just hard to find. Men who have the courage, right? And the capacity to try that. It's terrifying to think about disclosing much less in front of other men, much less to sign on for several weeks to process ongoing shame inducing things. So I tend to do this thing where, three people's, a group. So if I can get three, and it, I will start it. Whereas I think what I've seen in the community, which has been a struggle, is that people wait till they can get seven or eight people. One just a lot gets, it gets missed because you can't track, you can't. Get a sense of somatically what's showing up, embodied reactions and and those wonderful moments where you see clients reacting to each other. Yes. And that can be a moment for co-regulation and support that gets missed. So I tend not to go above five or six in my groups. Ideally. I think we're getting there. I think a lot of these organizations are also trying to come together to have farther reach, but it's tough to find for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I really wanna talk about the intersection of sexual trauma and racial trauma. Because I feel like because we live in a racialized systemically racist environment, the structures that we live in are have been influenced by our history in that way. There's so much great work out there now documenting the effect of microaggressions, in our environment. You and I spoke about how this really trains. Our fond response if we're a minority growing up as far as, needing to feel safe and accepted. I'm really curious about what you've recognized as far as the intersection of a nervous system that has endured a racialized environment and when that intersects with sexual trauma. And I, I don't know how to word my question, Becky. I'm just curious about that intersection. And I know what you're asking, right? Just as you're trying to form the question, and I think they, there's so men, many intersections, right? So we think about sexual trauma, it's an oppressive, it's experience, right? And it can have very coercive, manipulative components to it. It can be covert sexual trauma can feel a little bit they can be. What seemed like subtle sexual innuendos or exposure to sexual things over time, in, in ways that may not feel very direct, but have a direct impact, right? Sure. Like a microaggression. So sexual trauma can have those pieces and it can also be very direct and very overt. And and I think that if you've grown up in a brown or a black body, if you've grown up a minority, if you've grown up, neurodivergent or you feeling othered for your life, if you're part, of the L-G-B-T-Q population, that there's a sense of always. Having to be more vigilant, always having to kinda feeling a little detached from, removed from the majority, whatever the majority is in your community, your situation. And so if you've grown up with that isolation, right? And if you've grown up feeling with, like you have more vulnerability, one, it could be more likely that you are targeted by. Sexual predators, right? Also, it is what I call like a compound injury. So you're not only are you experiencing the oppression of racial trauma, systemic racism that of your, your current experience and your ancestors, but you're also experiencing the oppression of a sexual trauma on top of that. So it's very compound. So it's the, so it's shame of, I could say for myself, speaking for myself and what some of my clients of color have expressed that also have sexual trauma, that, so this, there's the shame of I'm in this skin, but I didn't choose this skin. I'm in the skin and I am living in a world that has decided, for some reason, because of the color of my skin, I'm more threatening. I'm not as safe, right? And because of that I will not be afforded as much opportunity in the systems that a white body might be afforded, right? So there's that piece. So not only am I in this skin that creates some vulnerability for me, but I have been violated in the skin and in this body, physically or sexually, right? So it's a really compound shame. It's compounded shame that you are really working with and helping survivors find when they, whether it's of racial trauma or sexual trauma when they are in a piece, when they are fawning and just saying something that they may not really believe to get out of a threatening situation. Doing something to please others so that you can stay safe. And really helping with both of these types of trauma, helping survivors find voice, find choice, find moments, they feel like they're witnessed, not oppressed. Where they have a volitional. Interactions, right? And where they are seen with that voice. The body and the skin that they're in. And that they're heard, right? So lots, A lot of overlap there. Yeah, a lot of overlap. And the word compound really stood out because that really succinctly describes it. I'm just struck by, for example, the fond response in order to feel safe in life in one school, growing up in social groups, all of that, it can become so ingrained in one's social behavior pattern that when it comes to. Crossing one's sexual boundaries. I'm guessing that one's habitual, fond response leads, one, to be more susceptibility to having their boundaries overstepped. Because of that just ingrained pattern of wanting to be accepted. Yeah. And so she's other, yeah. Yeah. To please other for survival and at the sacrifice of what you know is feels. Safe and embodied right for the person going through it. And that can happen just to in communicating in relationships and getting needs met emotionally to, sexually, and in sexually intimate interactions of, overriding. One's comfort with something. And then this tricky piece of, not wanting to pathologize what might be a little bit more unique kind of sexual interactions. And and allowing 'cause sometimes, what can be exciting sexually is also can create a little bit of nervousness. And how to help survivors when, so much of excitement and arousal is, has been so overlapped with nerv. A negative sense of nervousness, right? Not this is new and exciting. I'm nervous, this might be fun for me sexually versus this. Creating a nervous fear in my body that might lead to a shutdown or a fight response, right? Or a freeze response and or flight response. And it's and helping clients sort out in an embodied way when their body is really saying yes versus when their body's in an ambivalent place with something sexually and when it's really in their no. And helping them find their no and their yes. Yeah, that distinction is so important to really discern within one's body if there is a history of trauma, when a nervous system arousal response is a legitimate response based on one's safety in the moment, and when it is a sexually invited response that is sexually arousing and pinging or triggering an a habitual nervous system response. Yes. Yeah. And that the part of the brain that's connected with fear is also the part of the brain that's connected with arousal. And how we distinguish that. And some, for some of my clients, if they're comfortable with it masturbation is a bit of a triggering topic for sexual trauma survivors. But if they're comfortable with it, I will have them start not with engaging with a partner in sexual. Experiences to try to sort out what feels safe and what doesn't. But I'll actually have them experiment through masturbation and when they experience even just certain types of self touch, what they notice their body doing in reaction to that. They have control of whether they, decrease pressure. Add pressure, disconnect, right? And starting to get a sense of what happens in their whole system, but especially their pelvic floor in response to touch. Any type of touch. And then giving permission to clients who don't want to have sexual experiences to to not have them. And that, that sometimes mastering your sense of sexual self is saying, I have a right to say no all the time. And owning that. I wanna bring something up and that is just to recognize the challenging landscape that is out there, Becky, I feel like so not only are certain nervous systems compromise. Racially and sometimes trained into a fond response, but then once one recognizes, oh, the, there are patterns in my system that have been developed as a result of sexual trauma combined with racial trauma. Who's out there to support me? That's another barrier, right? Because people like you are very rare who can understand, this the compounding of these influences. Yes. And I think there are a lot of people out there who just think, oh, this is just me. Not realizing, these very systemic phenomenons and realities in our environment and how they do compound to create certain obstacles in our intimacy, relational patterns and like your, like a diamond in the, like a rare breed out there. And I think that, but that's part of our systemic challenge. Yes. Yes. It's and I am wondering how many people out there who do have this compounding effect in their embodiment when they're engaging sexually or intimately, feel like they're the only one because there's no resource out there. Yeah. I, and it, and this is the part that gets my fight response going. I get angry about it. Because I think we are, we need more therapists of color and we and in order for that and trauma therapists and who can, specialize on these tracks, which takes a lot of education. It's a lot of money. And that we have systems in place that don't. Make that as accessible, right? And so I love to be a part of anything where it is about taking, different, more diverse folks who are interested in learning the somatic model learning about healing the wounds of sexual trauma and doing anything that can help provide a. Just a plat for them, for platform, for them to get the education and to move through that and to get the expertise they need without financial barriers, right? Without being oppressed through the whole process, right? So that the systems that are in place to bring more people like me into the world so that survivors feel like they can access them. Are still oppressing. Folks so they don't feel like they can get to this place. So I think we have a long way to go. I don't know how much I'm answering your question, but, I think I'm always encouraging, for me, it's a little biased because I I enjoy this work and I think we need more trauma therapists out there, sexual trauma therapists and ones of color. And ones who have a sense of, who've done their own work around how racial trauma sits within them and, we need more. And so anything I can do to encourage other. Therapist of color or other therapists who have been oppressed to come out of their PS and and access any anything within this sys system that still is very racist, that would allow them to get to the point where they can help others like us. I encourage. Yeah. But we have a lot of work to do to make even the psychological field more approachable and accessible. To therapists of color. Yeah. Yeah. I got on my, I get up on a, yeah. A postal on that one. I really do. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You're in the trenches and you see the, you see the system as it is and what can be done to really open it up in order to. Provide the kind of resources that everyone should have access to and is so limited right now. Yes, and it, Becky and, here's the tricky thing is that it's not just resources as far as money and education. It's finding those people who have the somatic. Understanding Yes. To hold space for other people's somatic understandings. And there's nothing like being with someone who's who you know, understands what your body went through. Yeah. Or at least can create a an environment where. Understanding what the body's gone through is likely, right. It can happen. And I think it's crazy how much. How many of my years I was a therapist and I was never really taking into consideration the body in a intentional way. And yet and I got to a point where I would get stuck with people. It's something's missing here. Like, why? And I'm like, I know what's missing. There's all these other things happening in the room that I don't have a way to help you dialogue and work through, which is what led me to the somatic field. So I get excited because I see that we're in a place where. The word somatic or the word embodied responses, it, it's more common. We're seeing it more often. Yes. We're seeing in different hospital settings, treatment programs, that the somatic model is being brought in and it's not. It's not like some fofo thing out there. This is a scientifically based. Legitimate model of treating some really challenging traumatic experiences. And so I get excited by that. I get hopeful by that and that there's a little bit more awareness of it. But that's, for the lay person out there who's less aware of, what gets missed when you don't bring in that somatic piece. That's something that I think we still need to work on. Just when we talk about psychology in general, when we talk about trauma or mental health issues in general, we have to keep talking more directly about the body. Yeah. I feel like the most effective. Results that, somatic therapies really provide. My guess is that your, in your practice, you have people who've done talk therapy for years and Oh yeah. It's really the somatic work that, that invites their breakthroughs because as you say, it is the stories that are unexpressed from the body. And Becky, I, during this conversation, I'm realizing what an incredible. Unique offering that your life set of experiences have informed you with, and you know how you've metabolized that to hold space for such, it's such a unique offering because you're biracial, you were adopted and raised in a white family and youth. Traversed kind of the healing journey on, on so many different, really all trajectories that we spoke about, healing from sexual trauma, from racialized trauma, and to do all of this with the embodied understanding that you have. I am very excited. That you exist and that Yeah. And that. I'm excited I exist too. I could say that. Yes. After years of this work, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a unique gift that you are and that you offer in your deep dives into so much of this work that your body knows and that you can reflect back and hold space for, and it's really special. Thank you. Thank you so much, Becky. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and insights with us today. Is there anything that you feel like we missed? Because I know that in your bio, I know that working with adoptees and families of adoptees is a special place in your heart. You have two children who you've adopted. Yes. Yep. And we haven't touched on that. Is there anything within the context of what we shared? Because this is really about sexual wholeness I think that just that really if you are adopted or you work with adoptees, that when you have that primal, really early wound of being abandoned right by birth mother, that I think there is. That starts you in a different platform. I call it like the tough start, right? And how you navigate relationships with others. How you navigate your relationship with your body that's here when it was given up. And that it, there's, I don't think it's a surprise that, i'm drawn into other, these other overlapping areas because I think, the experience of adoption is in essence probably one of the most, oppressive shame inducing experiences, right? That you were born and as a result of you being born, you were not kept. And so the work around coming out of the shame of that, out of the, the oppression of not being wanted, right? And being okay with being having survived, being alive, being embodied, all of that, is it's really important work. And yeah, that would probably be a whole nother discussion, the adoption piece and the trainings I've done around that. But, but, but I'm here and I was adopted to, into a lovely family that nurtured the things. In me so that I could be here doing this work and and talking about these things and supporting others. Yeah. I must bow to them and bow to you and bow to your soul's journey for coming back in this form and really, sharing your expertise and your wisdom with us. Thank you so much, Becky. Thank you for having me. Notice how you're feeling in your body. Right now. And amongst these feelings and sensations, what feels best in your body? And once you identify that, how about consciously taking in that goodness? Are there themes that Becky spoke about that you may wanna explore for yourself? If you recognize subtle fawning or appeasing behavior patterns in social or sexual situations that do not honor your body's authentic desires, how might you receive the support of friends and loved ones to somatically re imprint new patterns? Of voicing your authentic yeses and nos, taking the time to pause and choose what your body truly wants or feel into your sense of embodied safety and resource instead of succumbing to reflexive patterns of yesterday. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. ​ [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Trauma & Nervous System Healing --- ### [The Pace of Trust: How the Body Heals Trauma Safely — Pamelah Landers](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) **Published:** April 14, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Every body’s journey of sensual & sexual reclamation from past sexual abuse is unique to their body. Pamelah shares with tremendous insight how her unique path involved her memories of child abuse returning via breath work, how she learned to give voice to her embodied feelings, and the roles Tantra, Yoni Massage, and Sexological Bodywork played in the reclamation and realization of her body’s full erotic pleasures and wholeness. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # The Pace of Trust: How the Body Heals Trauma Safely # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how trust is rebuilt in the body after trauma and why healing cannot be rushed. You’ll learn how the nervous system restores safety through pacing, attunement, and consistent relational experience. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/PamelahLanders-e1611156539750.jpg "PamelahLanders | Rahi Chun") [PamelahLanders.com](https://pamelahlanders.com/) [](https://www.zhalehboydphillips.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Thirty years as a Master Hand Analyst, Pamelah Landers is at the top of her field. The #1 International Best Selling author of Hand Analysis products, Pamelah is deeply versed in decoding the lines, hand shapes and fingerprints in people’s hands as she explains in great detail that is easy to understand. She’s created 55 Information Products, including books and audios that dive deeply into details of hand markings. Pamelah is also highly intuitive and provides insights for clients and students on a regular basis that are ‘to the point’ and implementable, practical, and down to earth. Using these insights, Pamelah co-leads courses on self-sovereignty and self-mastery that also includes tangible and implementable practices for stepping into both of these areas – one step at a time. In the 1990s, several of her articles on the recovery from sexual abuse were published in the monthly magazine “The Healing Woman.” In 2016, she consolidated years of research into a book, “Inappropriate Sexualization” – the purpose of which is to identify the ways men and women may have been violated, and not recognizing that something “so innocent’ or ‘minor’ could actually create discomfort about one’s own sexuality. This book provides lists for women, separate from men, based on input from her own experience, multiple clients, and Rahi. If you’d like a copy, in PDF format, please contact Pamelah at (don’t forget to include the ‘h’) ## What You’ll Learn About Trust, Safety & Trauma Healing in the Body $ “I didn’t have any memories until – it was safe enough to have memories, because I needed a support system… Having memories of sexual abuse without a support system? = Bad news….Because all of these hints had come before that… but I wasn’t ready to remember until I was ready to remember… and you can’t force that journey.“ $ How her early adolescent and adult sexual behaviors made total sense to her after realizing she had been sexually abused as a young child – as opposed to thinking there was something wrong with her beforehand. $ How the child’s defensive somatic response of leaving the “emotional body” during abuse can remain a pattern with sexual experiences into adulthood, until one recognizes them and feels safe enough to inhabit embodied sexual energy. $ How because sexual abuse can create an imprint of moving from casual encounter to sudden sexual overload & dissociation, this pattern can be simulated as a lack of courtship, foreplay and romance in adult relational dynamics. $ How being abused as a child can create a “Mother wound” or a sense of distrust with other women, due to the belief that one’s Mother should/could have been there to prevent the abuse. $ How writing articles for survivors of sexual abuse invited Pamelah to express her process, insights and creativity channeling her voice and supporting her integration, and how moving from anonymity to a pen name to her real name as author reflected her own evolving ownership as the authority of her experiences. $ How fully feeling and voicing her emotions cleared her throat channel of any obstacles, not just for singing, but served as a key for Pamelah to release past energies from her emotional body. $ How receiving Yoni Massage, where there is no expectation of sex or performance, and the only intention is for the receiver to receive their body’s sensations, can be a profoundly healing, self-educational and intimate experience for one with their body. $ How the pelvis and genitalia melting from numbness to pain to pleasure mirrors the nervous system moving out of a freeze state into “fight or flight,” then into its safe and open social engagement state. ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [How healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy transforms your embodied wholeness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [Why reclaiming pleasure after sexual trauma informs every somatic choice](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) [How trauma lives in the body and how to resolve and release it gracefully ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to go to the root of genital numbness, pain, or disconnection: [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armouring Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) Learn the foundational principles and somatic practices to restore sensitivity, circulation, and pleasure in the genitals. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today I have the great pleasure and honor of inviting Pamela Landers to the podcast. Pamela has been something of an angelic guide for me in my journey as a somatic sexuality practitioner. As we first met about 20 years ago at a Tantra residential retreat when we were first introduced to inner pelvic work. And then 11 years later, our paths crossed again when she became my very first professional client as an intuitive healer, she's able to speak with tremendous insight about her own healing journey as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. After the positive response from last week's episode with Violet Lang, I wanted to move Pamela's episode up the queue to illustrate how different the path can be and how unique the journey of coming home to the body really is for each and everybody in Soul Pamela's insights about her memories returning to her in her forties during breath work, using her singing voice to discharge embodied emotions, as well as the rolls tantra. Yoni massage and somatic sexuality sessions all served in restoring Her sexual pleasure and embodiment are unique to her magnificent journey. Please note the sensitive subject matter, especially if you've experienced or suspect you've experienced abuse of any kind in your past. Making sure you are feeling supported by your familiar and safe environment, the company of loved ones, and listening while it's feeling grounded and resourced in your body. Please feel free to pause and return to the episode after any length of time to digest and integrate the material, if that makes sense to you. Essentially, please take good care. I am really honored and thrilled for our listeners today that our guest today is Pamela Landers. There are many things I can share about Pamela, but I really must say she's one of the most courageous people I know. She is a incredibly gifted, intuitive healer. She is a one of the. Top three expert, master hand analysts in the country having published many books on hand analysis. But I know her through her incredible journey of reclaiming and restoring and realizing her sexual health and wholeness. Thank you so much for being here, Pamela. I really appreciate it. It's so my pleasure. I'm so excited. Awesome. Awesome. So to give some context as to how you and I have crossed paths and worked together, it goes back to my very first. So that tantra training at Desert Hot Springs was actually my first introduction to Inner pelvic release. And what that means specifically is holding a sacred space for the integration and release of unintegrated emotions from the tissues and musculature of the genitalia and pelvis. Fortuitously, Pamela and I were assigned to work with each other, and I was really blown away by what I witnessed as far as the possibilities of releasing ST stored emotions and trauma from the pelvic bowl. And the real courage and intention that I saw in Pamela in the way that she was supporting herself through the experience. And as well, it was my first time receiving any kind of inner pelvic work, and that was, that really blew me away as well. And then we, our path, fortuitously crossed again 11 years later when I was at a point of considering switching careers and leaning into becoming a somatic sexual wholeness practitioner. And it was just like divinely orchestrated that there she was again. So Pamela and I met again just at that juncture, which is amazing. And then she became my first client and over a series of sessions once again she came so ready, so prepared. Prepared as far as her inner fortitude and her intentionality and the way that she really supported herself through that process of releasing any remnants of numbness and pain and inviting them to an evolve into a healthy pleasure response was so both inspiring and yeah, it was just so inspiring that it really encouraged me to move into this field. Pamela, I really need to, I wanna acknowledge it's, it gives me such pleasure to acknowledge you as being that guiding. Angel or that guiding force on both occasions. It's incredible. It is incredible. And that first one, the Tantra retreat in Desert Hot Springs, we totally unbeknownst to each other, right? It wasn't like we were, had any conversation ahead or anything. So both of us went into this with a lot of trust in ourselves, which is a major part of the journey. The reason that this has worked for us to work together as often as we have is 'cause we each trust ourselves, but to trust the other person, then to have our back and to be there for us. That was really very important. Very important. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think we both, I think both of us are intuitive people and we felt. The the sense of safety and trust in working with each other. Pamela, for our listeners once again I really wanted this podcast to be practical for listeners because I think sexual abuse and trauma is an unspoken epidemic in our society. And so I really wanted to Yeah, exactly. I really wanted, I'm rolling my eyes. Yeah. How true that is. Yeah. And I feel like there are such practical tools, experiences, and wisdom, and I wanted to hear from people who actually went through the journey of holding space for their own reclamation, restoration and realization journey back into sexual embodiment. And for our listeners I think a great place to start may be to create the context of what some of those obstacles were for you in your life that you overcame through the years in your sexual healing journey. I, one of the things that's important, I was 40 before, I had memories of being sexually abused, which I think is a very common thing for people, especially if it happened when they were young and it stopped at an early age that they don't remember. And that was true for me. I didn't have any memories until it was safe enough to have memories. Because I needed a support system. And that's one of the things that I recognize, that having memories of being sexually abused without a support system bad news Yes. Is very hard. So I had all these little hints of things. That this might have been true, but until I knew that I was in a safe enough place and had a therapist that I trusted someone with whom I had been through years and years of dream work and spiritual journey that I knew from my church until I had a therapist that I knew I could trust, I couldn't be in the memory. So that's, to me, was a very practical, retrospectively, I would say. I didn't know that at that time, but I knew my guidance was taking care of me because all these other hints had come before that, but I wasn't ready to remember until I was ready to remember. And you can't force that journey. Yeah, you cannot force it. I think that's a really important point to underscore that our psyche, our whole, our nervous system needs to feel resourced and safe enough to address those experiences that are often blacked out in our memories because our system knows that it would be too overwhelming to deal with those kinds of memories. And in some situations, there's a threat. There's the thought that it won't be able to survive if they have those memories while still, for example, living with a perpetrator or or being in danger of a repeated abuse. So it sounds like for you that resourcing and support came in the form of working with a therapist and a kind of a support network when you were 40. Yes. Yeah. And what was that like for those memories for those realizations to, to come back? The first, the day that I had the memory, I, we, my therapist and I were doing breath work. And so she had been trained enough in it to do it, and she just had me breathing breathing. And I went to her telling her, I think I've been sexually abused. And so she knew that's what was the potential of what was up. So she obviously also had tools to help be present with that. Earth's mother therapist, very earthy, very caring. Woman that I knew really well, I knew she had my back. And so she in the breath work, I had a memory. I could feel it in my body. So it felt real to me. I could trust it because I felt it, it wasn't a mental experience that I thought I was making up, which happens a lot. So that I felt it in my body because I was doing breast work. And I trusted it because I already had hints about it. And then the other thing that was really significant is after we got through that session and she, I was telling her details and things that I could remember and then, which also made it more real for me. And then after that session, I felt this experience of the cells in my body really rearranging themselves. Literally, I could feel them moving, like the space that I'd been holding the secret, which is what it was, I was holding this secret, was now free. And the cells arranged themselves and it was such a bizarre experience that I remember it 'cause it was so out of the box or something I had experienced up to that point. I've since had other experiences like that, but that was the first time I had that consciousness. Oh wow. My cells are rearranging themselves because the secret has been told, and I'm safe sharing the secret with this person. Yeah. Yeah. That's really profound and it speaks to. The work that the body is engaged in holding these secrets and keeping these secrets in the body and what can happen when what's in the shadow can be brought out into the light and really received and held a safe space for, in this case, your therapist, who was also, it sounds like a breath practitioner, but bringing those secrets into the light allowed your, this, your cellular structure to let go of whatever tension and effort was going towards keeping them in the dark, right? Which is what it needs to do, right? Yeah. Yeah, I, Pamela I'm wondering if you can share a little bit once you've, the memory came back to you and you felt it in your body, did some of the earlier experiences, for example, when you were a teen or a young adult around sexuality make sense to you? Oh my God. It was like this whole floodgate of, oh my God, that makes so much sense. Oh, I get that now. Oh my, oh, yes, tons of that. And of course I did therapy for the next two years with her. 'cause it just, it takes time. This is not a one-time thing. Oh, I have memories now I'm good. No, then I have to deal with all the consciousness changes that have to happen and all of, there's just so much that happens as a result for me. There were so many things to deal with. But yes, because then I, at one point, maybe within the next year, I recognize that at age three. I saw an image of myself at age three standing at windows looking out and realizing that I had made the choice to be emotionally self supportive. Like I had to take care of myself emotionally because nobody was available to help me. So that was a really profound memory that came as a result of, and I was holding my doll, so I, had my safety net but it was just, and whatever, three-year-old language, but I'm, as an adult, looking back and seeing that three-year-old making that choice. And then there was a lot of consciousness as therapy went on about why I flirted all the time. With people who are older. Guys in high school when I was in elementary school. Why I was so attracted to older men because, I was sexually abused by somebody older. And so it was really, there were a lot of things, patterns and things that just started making sense. And of course, by that time I'd already had the experience of sex by the time I was 40 by the time of the memory and, with male adults. And I, one of the things I recognized, it also got really clear to me in this therapeutic process and that my therapist pointed out to me, that's very common when you're especially young being sexually abused, that your emotional body detaches and leaves while you're being sexually abused. And so I had an experience of being aware. That when I would have sex, then as an adult, I would leave emotionally, I just wouldn't be present. That took a lot of work to be able to get back and to trust my emotional part of me to be in my body having sex. That was, I think a major part of all the different modes of work that I did was that was for that purpose. So the journey of feeling safe again, to be embodied during sensation, arousal, pleasure, intimacy especially when your first imprints, it sounds like when you were very young had established a certain pattern with your body engaging in sexuality. So there's so many important points that you bring up here. One is that, when the memories did come back to you at 40, as you said, it's not like one session and your memories come back and you're done. It's quite a journey of integration, recognizing the effects. And I would imagine just so you know, as you're sharing so many things about your behavior, then can make sense. And there's a place to make sense of it in your mind where, whereas before, perhaps it was really confusing to understand your own behavior. Yeah, I thought, of course I thought there was something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? That I can't stay in a long-term relationship that was like I had one. That lasted a year and all the rest of my relationships were short because I would just emotionally not be able to be go. I just couldn't sustain being in a relationship emotionally. I would just, okay. I gotta get outta here. Yeah. I wanna bring up something that as a child, your capacity for energy and particularly the high voltage of erotic energy is contained to it's limited and the energy of the voltage of an adult. It sounds like adult males is so overpowering that the only way to. Experience that is to leave your body because it's so overwhelming to the smaller body. And a couple of things. One, the pattern of dissociating can be an imprint that stays into adulthood. And as well what you're speaking to Pam, there can also be a, an imprint of a lack of courtship in relationships where you go from kind of meeting to a sexual overload. And that emotional evolution in courtship never had a chance to evolve. And so that pattern can also stay into adulthood. Which it sounds like, that's, yeah, that's what it sounds like, a lack of kind of emotional evolution in your adult relationships before, before you realize this. Yeah. And yeah, I think. Even after, while I was, I didn't date anybody for a while when I first started doing the sexual healing work on, having memories, because the thought of that was just overwhelming. But I was single and it was a few years before I could date. And engage in any kind of a sexual relationship. So I had a lot of time to do some work, to do some healing work, and it was better, I was more emotionally available. By the time I started getting into a, I ended up in a six and a half year relationship, and so I was more emotionally available, but there was still a part of me that it was another 10 years after that ended before I was seven years after that ended before I recognized, oh, now I know what it feels like to actually be emotionally embodied. Like I remember the day that happened. That was a big deal. Yes. Yes. So this is very exciting because this is really signs that the work you'd been doing was manifesting in your embodiment. Can you share with us what were the most influential and supportive experiences during that time that you feel like allowed for that the beginnings of that emotional embodiment and intimacy? First of all, remembering that I was sexually abused, obviously, having a safe therapist that I, whom I really trusted, who had done a lot of work with people. Who had been sexually abused for some reason it wasn't a specialty. She just ended up attracting a lot of clients during a certain time period. And I asked her at one point, 'cause I knew she had other female clients, I said, would you be willing to start a group for women who had been sexually abused so we could talk with each other? Because one of the things I also recognized is that I had a huge trust of not trusting other women because of all the projection, the, what is called the mother wound, a projection onto my mother that she didn't protect me. There's a whole conversation around that. Yes, we could do a whole separate podcast just on that, but that she wasn't protecting me and didn't stop this. As if she could. There's no mother in the world who can do that because who's ever, regardless of the relationship. With the child, whether it's a neighbor, her husband, her dating guy, her brother, whatever it is, right? Her son, whatever the abuser is so well trained at, so good at seducing the child that and won't knows, the child won't tell. There's all, I've written a whole article on that, so I know that I, but it doesn't matter 'cause it was my emotional side was going how come my mother isn't there to protect me? How come my mother isn't right? So getting, I didn't trust women. To have my back. Yeah. My therapist was the only one I really trusted to have my back and I wanted that to be different. I didn't wanna have the rest of my life being not trusting women. So that was a huge thing. This group met for two years, once a month for two years, and I developed some great friendships with the women in that group and I learned how to trust other women and by hearing their stories, having more compassion for them and understanding what they were going through, and they had similar issues around not trusting women. That was a huge impact for me. A huge change in my direction about my capacity to have relationships as women. Big deal. Yeah. That is really huge. And yeah. We could do a whole podcast just on that. The disappointment, anger, all the emotions that go into feeling that someone who was supposed to protect you didn't when in fact, in most situations they don't know. They don't know. Or they're ill-equipped or they can't. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine, Pam, how being in a group with other women and really empathizing with their stories and feeling, really feeling them allowed that barrier to really melt away. It did. It was really, it was, I wouldn't have guessed that's what it was that was gonna come out of that group. Other things did, but that was one of the main things that really shifted. At a very conscious level. And also during that time, I'd love to ask you, was writing articles initially anonymously for magazine, were the articles about your journey of sexual embodiment or Yes. There were a variety of things. I wrote one, and there's a woman that I had met who was writing, my therapist, told me about, who was publishing a monthly magazine called The Healing Woman for Women who had, for people who had been sexually abused. And so I thought I'm just gonna contribute my experience. So one of the articles was ways that I abandoned myself and I had a list of 47 things. This was like a few years into the recovery that I recognized, or ways that I had abandoned myself as a result of being sexually abused. One of them was on the mother wound and there were multiple parts to that story. I just re I found that article the other day that I had printed out that I wrote in the nineties and reread the whole thing. It's 11 pages. Typed, like size 10 point font. It's a lot of, there's a lot in that article. And I wrote another one that I can't remember what it was, but it was about different aspects of the healing journey, different things that I recognized, and at the end, I finally was using my name. But I did it anonymously for a while and then, used a pen name and then finally used my name at the end. So that's a real it's such a reflection in your ownership of your journey to, to not be anonymous about your experiences, right? But I had to feel safe enough to do that, right? I had to, yes, get to a place where I could do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really, I feel like the, one of the themes that's emerging already is, and it's, I think it's a critical core one for any kind of healing, but especially sexual healing is the role that safety plays in the body, and specifically the nervous system within the body's sense of readiness to address something. Certainly to engage, be public, and to yeah. Start resolving is that sense of safety. Pamela, I wanna go back to the women's group because I'm wondering, I'm guessing that your relationship with yourself as a woman was deeply impacted by the, your ability to relate with other women and than and love other women in the group. Yes, of course. It was totally, yes. I got a lot more self-loving and self-accepting. Of who I was and also saw, at every level, every turn of healing around sexual abuses is having permission to take ownership of the fact that it's not my fault. Yes. And that's a very healing thing. And listening to all these other women's stories, that was another thing that emerged that I could just be kinder to myself and less mean to myself and open my heart more because I was realizing I wasn't alone. I wasn't the only one. And they all have different stories, all of them different stories. No two. Same. Which is also an interesting. Experience, yeah. What you're sharing is so important because it is so common for children to mistakenly blame ourselves for what happens to us, and the danger of children thinking that they are bad rather than they did something bad. And that identity sticking to them, and especially when it comes to the wiring or association with the body, with touch with arousal or pleasure, the guilt and shame that can get wired into those experiences that, can stay into adulthood. Yeah. And most children are seduced and told that they want this or that it's their fault, so it also gets implanted in their consciousness. That they're responsible for it, because why would the abuser take responsibility? So it sounds between the time that the memories returned through the breath work at 40 and our first meeting at the Tantra retreat in Desert Hot Springs working with this therapist, feeling safe enough, start to feel your embodied sensations and emotions and the women's group, these were all really played critical critical role. And there was, yeah, there was one other really significant organ process that I went through, and that is in 2000, I started. Voice lessons, and I'm doing air quotes on voice lessons because the purpose of the teacher's capacity was to hold a huge emotional space for people. And her experience was the more that you get connected to how you really feel in your true emotions and the obstacles in the way of having your real voice, the better you're gonna sing. So I worked with her over a seven year period from 2000 to 2007. So I had already started that work with her by the time we met in 2003. And had done a lot of already processing of how sexual abuse and other related things had impacted my voice and my singing voice. I'm a very. Clear singing voice and I have organic, I have an organic design to sing well, but there was a lot of emotional stuff in the way of me sounding appealing. That was one of the challenges is that there was just so much anger. And of course on the other thing that happened from the time that woman's group happened until I met you and before I started working with this woman, was that I was in a six and a half year relationship with a man. So there was a lot that happened in that relationship where I got to explore my sexuality and learned more about safety and learn what scared the shit out of me and what I couldn't do what was not okay. But he was a good listener in many ways, and so I had a chance to do a lot of of healing around having a relationship with a man in that relationship. That sounds phenomenal. That sounds really, yeah, really pivotal. 'cause it sounds like it was the first, I don't know, Pamela would you call that it was the first, it was, yeah, the first healthy sexual, communicative intimate relating. And while you were going through that, oh my god, your voice teacher and her approach. Sounds like everyone could use it, right? You bet. That's profound for so many reasons. The throat is really has so many parallels to the pelvis. The throat nerve correlates with the pelvic nerve. Our jaw muscles correlate to our SOAs muscles and they're both major orifices of the body. And so I, my teachers in Europe, they always start opening the pelvis by opening the throat, but to then get in touch with the emotions that are preventing an open and clear. Vocal expression. That must have just been profound. It was. I'll give you a couple examples. There was a day when I was aware of feeling jealous of one of the other women in the class. 'cause we would do these someday one day workshops, or two day workshops. And there's this one woman who was a really good singer and I loved her voice and I was really jealous of how cool she sounded, right? So I was sharing this in the class and my teacher said, your assignment today is to feel jealousy. Like your assignment for the whole day is to just feel jealousy. And so I just sat there for about an hour. Other people were having their turns and whatever. And I sat there for an hour and I was just aware of getting really conscious of how I felt jealous. And I felt the jealousy in my body and I had pro full permission to feel it right. That was the assignment, full permission to feel it. And I got angry inside myself. I was crying and I learned how to cry in front of this group. Early on because a lot of people did that in order to heal. Like crying is such a great healing experience. So I was crying for some of it. Sometimes I was laughing with myself about it, but I'm in my own little world feeling jealousy. In about an hour, I was just completely laughing at myself. And I had com gotten over the jealousy 'cause I had permission to fully feel it. So that was like, we did a lot of things like that in this class. And then there was another day when my cat died, after my cat died, that we were having a weekend workshop for three days and I was getting ready to move from San Jose to Palm Desert. And I knew I was moving and I knew I was moving like within a week or two. Like it was all like my, I think my cat died within two weeks of my move, which was, a whole nother story. It was perfect. He and I had a lot of psychic conversation about him leaving, 'cause it wasn't gonna work for him to go with me. So I, she said, your job this weekend is to cry and to feel all your sadness and to feel your grief. And she was very attached to animals. She got it. So I spent a weekend just sobbing a lot, and then I'd sing and my voice would sound better and then I'd cry some more and then my voice would sound better and I'd sing and then we'd eat, and I was like crying off and on for three days, just sobbing when I felt like it, or little bits of crying or whatever, full permission to feel grief, nondescript at some point. It wasn't attached to anything specific. That was so healing. And that gave my voice more permission to be free to sing with more clarity. 'cause I wasn't holding down those feelings. I was feeling them. Yes. Yes. That really is really profound. And the disarming work that we do, whether it's pelvic or genital or another part of the body, it's really unprocessed and held emotions in the tissues and musculature of the body that causes pain, that causes stiffness, that causes blocks from sensation and emotion. And so to just have this permission to feel and express, wow, what a cathartic release from the body. It was. It was huge. Wow. That is really huge. So all of these things really prepared you for the retreat where we met. And I'm curious, like how did you end up at a Tantra retreat? Good question. Yeah. 'cause it sounds like the evolution of everything makes sense because you're getting closer and closer to your sexuality and reclaiming your sexuality. But how was it exactly that you ended up, because it was a week week long retreat and it's, it's not for the faint hearted. It's really a deep dive. It was not for the faint hearted. I actually had moved to the desert, right to Palm Desert and I started going to see a network chiropractor, Lexi, who also was doing tantra and she was holding women's groups where we just meet for a couple hours and learned some tantric breathing or whatever it was, and so I met her in March of 2002 'cause I was in a lot of pain after moving a lot of boxes and needed some chiropractic help. So I found her and she was in Palm Springs, which was great 'cause I didn't have to drive that far to see her. And then she started talking with me about Tan after we had a few sessions and just invited me to some stuff. So it was, it would be then, that was 10 months before you and I met, so I had multiple workshops with her. That were women. And then she had a couple that were with men and women where we were, again, doing some tantric practices, fully clothed of course, but tantric practices where we're just, so I was already in alignment with trusting her. I had met her partner, Kip, she and I became good friends and I just, she just invited me because I thought, why not? Yep. Yeah, it sounded like it was a gradual from women's groups, breathing it, there was then, and then co-ed groups, and then it was the next step. Yeah, it was the thing that she was offering. And I didn't have a partner, so I didn't, I said, I don't know if I can go, 'cause I don't have a partner. And she said let's just hold space for somebody to show up and who also doesn't have a partner. And I said, okay, just trust. And lo and behold, there you were. Yes. Yes. I think it was four, four pairs of people, if I remember correctly. I think it was, yeah. Yeah. And they really sequenced it very mindfully, where obviously, where day by day it's moving deeper and deeper to the the last two days where we held space for the inner pelvic release and, yeah, just to give listeners a sense of what that was. So to define what that was. It's really holding a sacred, safe space using the principles of sounding presence. So we're always connected with eye contact, and this is partly to ensure that people don't dissociate or leave their bodies to make sure that there's another body there. Another being to ground the experience and we are mirroring the breathing and the sounding to also ground the experience and also expand the channel through which the contracted energy can release. As we're breathing and sounding as one and sounding as in toning and making sound, I just wanna make sure that we're clear about what sounding is for people. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And we are very gently listening to the body and moving at a pace that feels safe for the body making contact. So that's touch palpation at areas of the tissue. The tissue of the genitalia and sensing for any areas of pain, numbness, discomfort, and breathing into those sensations and expressing s toning sound to release that. And oftentimes that is a indication that there is held un unintegrated emotion there. And so oftentimes emotions will have an opportunity to release and be expressed as a result. So I'm curious, Pamela, help me understand what that experience was for you and where that fits in your journey in the reclamation of your sexual wholeness. I think part of the time I was a little checked out emotionally. I don't think I was fully present. I'm sure you were aware of that. Because I hadn't gotten there yet. I was in that process. I was more present than I would've been, earlier, but I was still partially checked out. And I was aware of that some of the time and sometime not. So that was an important piece of the consciousness for me. But I just had to trust to me the whole time that nobody was gonna harm me. That I was safe because, and we talked about a safety earlier, this is big theme in my life is feeling safe. And so I just had to trust that I was safe and taken care of and that felt true. I really trusted you. I trusted myself. I trusted the leaders of the group to make sure that was true and that I, if I needed, if something was coming up, that I could talk to somebody about it, right? So I felt protected and safe. That was a really important part. And then by being able to be naked and touching each other's bodies, knowing that there was not an expectation of having sex, I was freer to just be in the flow of whatever was up. And taken care of and supported and not having, like I said, to perform or to be there for somebody else. When it was my turn to be acknowledged and taken care of, I just got to receive. Yes. That was huge. I think. Yeah, that really is huge. There's a couple of great points that wanna underscore. One is that, when this kind of work, it is such incredibly vulnerable work, especially when one has a history of their boundaries being violated, that. Any, anything that can forward and deepen the sense of safety and trust in the space. Holding is really one of the main jobs of the facilitator, the workshop. Organizer or the practitioner. Yeah. And acknowledging that anything can switch on a dime. And it's like putting your body in charge of what the experience is gonna be like. You could have changed your mind. You could have set something out like there's, no sense of obligation or forcing the body to do anything that it doesn't want. And it sounds like for you, Pamela, knowing that it was not about sex took a lot of pressure off and just you were able to focus on your own experience of receiving and healing. And there was one other thing that happened always in a tantric experience before the puja there, the women in the men separate. And so what the women did when we were not with the men, is that Lexi had us take mirrors and look at our genitals. Which, this is the first time I'd done that. And that was an eyeopening experience to have permission, first of all to do that, but to actually do it in a very, again, very safe environment. It never occurred to me. Whoever trained you to look at your genitals in a mirror. So that was huge. It is. It is huge. And I think it's yeah. So for you, it sounds like it was profound 'cause it was the first time you had done that. And the permission to do it. Because, there's often this don't play with yourself consciousness that round masturbation is bad and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of hands off, literally. Although I masturbate, that was not an issue. But but looking was a different experience. It was really a different experience in that. So I, is it, I isn't it it's quite intimate, isn't it? Yes. Very intimate. To really take the time to actually take in your genitalia and admire and appreciate and recognize all the little different subtleties. Yeah, I wish we, I wish that was part of our sex ed. I wish too. Yeah. So I'd love to know Pamela, because between that workshop, which was profound for me as well, both as a future practitioner and someone receiving that kind of inner pelvic work, I just recommend for everyone. It just, both as a giver and a receiver, you just learn so much about the intricacies, the vulnerabilities, the magnificence of the human body and what it's capable of. But then between then and the next time our paths crossed, 11 years later, I'm wondering how your journey of. Inhabiting your body and feeling safe with your sexuality, how, like what happened between that period that prepared you for the sessions that we eventually did? It's interesting because after that, within a year after that session, or maybe sooner after that, I made a choice to stop dating for a while until I got emotionally more healthy. I just kept attracting, unavailable men and I knew there had to be something in me that was emotionally unavailable. So I finished working with this teacher in 2007, the voice teacher, and so I did that. I did a lot more work with her. Then over the next four years really some really deep, profound work and a lot of grief work. And learning to love myself like that was feel, having permission to feel a lot of grief and rage led to a lot of self-love. So that was a significant part of the journey for me. Again, it took a lot of courage, a lot of, I agree with you. I am one of the most courageous people I know as well. Yeah. It took a lot of courage to go to some of those emotional places that I went to. I moved out of the desert. I reconnected, I moved back to San Jose for a little while where my family of origin was and did some healing work with my family. Which was really important while I was working, and just, and then I ended up moving to Los Angeles, which is where we reconnected. 'cause you've always lived in LA but I was living in the desert when we met and we ran into each other at a fundraising event. And so I was at a re retreat with a woman that I met in LA that I was doing some re work for from 2013. In 2014, in January on my birthday, I was 66 at a tan retreat, naked and blindfolded, having a day where for two hours a man was responsible for feeding me and taking care of me. And I told him to, asked me questions about me when I was blindfolded. And I was really vulnerable and naked for these four days with these people that, some of them I had, most of them I had been to other retreats with. So I knew, and that's where I where when the women and men separated, as they do in tan retreats, she showed us a yoni massage. And that opened so many doors for me. The yoni massage experience. Yeah. The women and men were separated. The men were out doing whatever they were doing, but the women, she was showing us how to do that with each other. And, yeah. So I'm, I'd love to know what about that experience receiving yoni massage from another woman. Help us understand what made that so impactful and profound for you. What was so impactful was, first of all, somebody was, again, paying attention to my genitals with no agenda. It wasn't about sex at all. It was, and what she was doing was touching each part of the outer lips of the labia for two minutes, just holding her fingers in one place and then moving to another place for two minutes, and another place, and the either pleasure or pain or numbness. I was shocked that I had all these different feelings going on in my labia that I had no idea. Was there. So that was first of all, recognizing really literally how much memory gets stored in our genitals. I was like, oh my God, I had no idea. Oh, this place is painful and this place is really pleasurable and this place is numb. Can't even feel it. So that was shocking. And then the whole gazing at Myoni, just gaz, just like for the first two minutes she was just gazing, like just, and I just felt this huge rush of pleasure inside my body that someone was paying attention to my genitals again with no agenda, but was complete pleasure. Whoever gets that. Yeah. It reminds me of the experience you shared earlier of having a mirror and examining your own genitalia. Just how profound these simple practices are and can be. And it's not only the action, but it's really the intention and the space holding of having No, just as you're saying, having no other agenda but to listen, to, respond to and hold space for the genitalia and whatever stories the tissues within the genitalia have to tell. Which is what we did. This is what the work that we did for, I don't know, almost two years over time, over two years of time. So it sounds like it was a really wonderful prelude to when we, our paths reconnected and you received sessions through our work together. I would love to. Oh, and it's really significant, the being blindfolded, being naked and being responded to by a male energy. I'll just say, because that really re, it re imprints a new story in your body about trust that you can receive safety and pleasure from a a male being right? Yes. Which was another part of the journey, right? And then that particular guy and I ended up doing yoni massage together. We had eight sessions over the next few months. I got a lot more in depth. Experience with it, right? From a man who was not a sexual partner, right? He was a tantra partner and we were friends and we got to know each other a lot better, but there was never a sexual relationship. So I learned so much about receiving, just being, it's, it was all about me. So again, those Yoni's massage sessions were all about me, so I got to receive yeah. Without any agenda of what his needs were. I think that's so profound, and I really do believe that is such an integral part of genital healing is because I think our genitals in our society, they, there's so much pressure and everyone's always taking from them. And in some situations we use them ourselves to barter for social acceptance or our identity or image. But then to have experiences as you're describing where. There's no agenda, there's nothing, no performative aspect. It's just him holding space for you and your genitalia to receive and explore what it is to receive in those sensations and feelings. Yeah, exactly. But the receiving piece was the most, there was a lot of healing that happened with him and with you. 'cause you came on the end of that. A lot of healing that happened around the capacity to receive from a man I deserve to receive from a man. I don't have to be the giver all the time. That was huge. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that really. It sounds, Pamela, it sounds like that was like the really great preparation and prelude for the sessions and the work that we did. Yes. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been ready for you. Pamela, can you share for you, because I have my perspective as a practitioner as to what were some of the key moments in the evolution of your embodiment and reclamation, but I'd love to hear from you. It's been quite a while now, but what do you recall as being really key in reclaiming and restoring your sexual wholeness? There were like four or five, I was thinking about this morning 'cause I knew we were gonna talk. So there were like four or five really significant things. One of which was having permission to move at my pace and if something hurt to be able to stop to acknowledge that it hurt instead of tolerating it. And you would apply whatever intuitive process that you knew to do to help move through the pain. And so I had permission to say, wait, something's going on here that needs some attention. I instead of just tolerating, right? And that applies to a lot of aspects of my life, right? Where I don't have to just tolerate stuff. That was huge. I remember the day, and this was pretty far into our sessions, when my vagina actually, when you had your fingers inside my vagina, and I felt pain and I realized I had been numbed out all this time, and all of a sudden there was pain. I go, oh my God. I think I've had a numb vagina for a long time. And I had no idea it was numb because I couldn't feel anything, but I didn't know that I was supposed to feel stuff in places that I couldn't feel it. That was huge. The G-spot for in the beginning of our work together was it, there was some stimulation, but it also was really tender and sore. And over time it got to a place where it was just complete pleasure. That was a huge change. It's oh, there isn't pain involved in the G-spot now. And so that was a big shift. And knowing about the anterior part of the vagina, I didn't even know it existed, but how much pleasure there was there. And just and on, entering into my vagina, there were time for a long time it hurt. And I remember there was a day when it didn't hurt anymore and it was like, oh my God, this is so amazing. But all of the journey that we had been on and the work that had been done and my part of it, in your part of it, of having permission for me. To be able to be safe again with you and go at my pace and not somebody else's pace, and trusting that I was being taken care of and you had my back. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, there's, there're just really core themes that you're speaking to and one that keeps recurring in our conversation today is, a huge part of the restoration of the body to feel safe involves putting the body in the driver's seat of what it wants or doesn't wanna experience. And once the body has that. Evidence that it's actually in charge of what happens. It can actually relax and be open to receiving. So you knowing that whatever your, whatever you were ready for, not ready for really ruled or dictated or guided the session, it sounds like. Yeah. Was really put your nervous system at ease. Yeah. And yeah, I, it really, it's just really inspiring for me to know how the body can respond in that way from numbness to pain or discomfort to pleasure. And it really, over the years I've recognized how that really mirrors our nervous system going from a freeze response to a fight or flight, which is usually the pain or discomfort to a social engagement stage, which is, where the peace and pleasure and joy can come in. We now witnessing that kind of evolution is, it's miraculous. I think it's one of the deepest privileges that a practitioner can witness, but Pamela like really reclaiming your pleasure and your body and your voice and, expressing what it is that your body wants and doesn't want. All of that. It feels like you, it goes back to the voice teacher and the way you were expressing. You learned to reclaim your voice, embody your emotions and sensations. Everything you had done really prepared your, prepared, you magnificently really for the experiences of holding space for yourself during our sessions. Totally. And I trusted myself so much by the time you and I started working together. Yes. Yes. That I knew and I trusted you, but I mostly, I had to trust myself to know that I could ask for what I needed or wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Some things that I recall from that series is, there's a number of things. I remember at one point I, it might have been your, the tissues around your G-spot or somewhere else, but the emotion that was coming up for you was around confusion. And it may have been because what you were, the sensations you were experiencing were both a mixture of pain and pleasure and it was a situation where a lot of times in Sessions, clients may think they're feeling confusion in the moment, but it's actually, it can also be the memory of confusion that's in the tissue. Because, obviously when someone is being abused by someone they know, there can be a lot of confusion involved. And there are other emotions like frustration or boredom that people may assume is happening in the moment, but it's actually. It's actually unintegrated emotions from past sexual experiences. But what I recall specifically Pamela, is after you were present with that confusion and we did some breathing and gave it a voice it evolved into arousal and pleasure. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there was one other time where, it had to do with reclaiming your voice. There were words that came out saying, stop or stop it now. And it, it's just so important that the body gets to experience and express what it may not have had permission to. Certainly in instances of a violation or boundary breach, really whatever it wants to at any time. That could have even applied to me in my life, having sex with somebody that I said yes to but didn't really wanna have sex with. That I didn't have permission to say no. Yes. Yeah. Really letting the body to have its free reign and its free voice. Yeah. Pamela, I would love to ask, because it's been such a rich journey for you in reclaiming your sexuality, what advice would you give to listeners who have endured a breach of boundaries or perhaps sexual abuse and aren't really sure how to approach their healing? I'd say, first of all, you have permission to do the healing work in spite of all the people around you who may say you should forget about it and put it in the past if they know about it. So you have the right to do the healing work you wanna do. Having a support system is absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary. And if you are married and have children and you wanna do this work and you're not ready to tell your husband, for example, or your wife, you can have a therapist and a best friend as a support system, right? But it's important that, and the other thing I'm gonna say is don't tell people about this. If you know you're gonna get negative feedback or they're gonna be pushing against you, or wanting to be in denial about it, or they can't handle it or whatever, do not think that you have to tell people just because you're related to them or you're best friends with 'em or whatever. Because a lot, as you mentioned real early on, it's unbelievable the quantities of people who have had some kind of sexual violation. It's just, it's so predominant and it can be little things that they're not even aware of. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be penetration with a penis, right? It doesn't have to be that there are so many other ways that sexual violation happens that causes a impact. So be very trusting of yourself about who you share your journey with, because not everybody can handle it. And that to me is one of the most important things to, to honor yourself with. Is having a trusted people who have your back. And that if you start working with a therapist and you don't like them, go to somebody else. You don't have to just stay with somebody because, if they don't have experience in this area, they're not gonna be able to help you. Absolutely met them, met the therapist. Yeah, I think those are fantastic. What? That's fantastic. The permission is so huge. Giving yourself the permission, I think it's like the biggest step, it's the first step really and the most important one. And yeah, I hear the importance of having that support system. So your whole nervous system can feel safe as you engage in this really sacred journey of reclaiming yourself, right? Because once you can't not know. Let me put it this way. Some people have memories and then they go into denial about it because they don't want to, or they think they made it up, or somebody convinces them, they made it up. So you can not know, except at some level you always do know. Pamela, thank you so much. You're for your, you're welcome. Yeah. For being who you are and for radiating your light and for being such a powerful guide for others. So Pamela, you can visit Pamela. She has a whole range of offerings at her website, pamela landers.com. So Pamela also has offered workshops for leaders to address their leadership wounds. She is in a currently offering a six month self-mastery course, and I think she's, one of the people who really takes ownership of self-honoring and taking full ownership of her gifts. She has a whole range of offerings at her website that I would encourage you to check out, and she's also written an ebook on all of the inappropriate ways people become sex sexualized in our society. Pamela, is that available on your website? It's not on my website 'cause my website is only focused on hand analysis. But if people can email me at pamela@pamelalanders.com and I'd be happy to share how they can get ahold of that. Okay. It's a new book. Yeah. Wonderful, Pamela, thanks so much for who you are and for sharing yourself today. You're welcome. Thanks for asking. My pleasure. Notice how this episode is landing in your body right now. Would it be grounding for you to tap opposite sides of your body with each hand walk around your home or outside feeling your feet firmly supported by the ground? Are there parts of your body that have emotions wanting to be expressed? How would it be to put pen to paper, voice to emotion, sharing your body's stories with a trusted friend, or perhaps there are parts of your body that need to be acknowledged and touched with your own hands with love, compassion, gratitude, and understanding. Please take care and seek trusted support from safe resources if you sense this is needed or wanted. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun") #### Devi Ward Erickson Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg) #### Dr. Betty Martin The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Trauma & Nervous System Healing **Tags:** Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Healing, Sexual Pleasure, Sexual Trauma, sexual trauma recovery, Tantra, Yoni massage --- ### [Pleasure Beyond Pain: Chronic Pain & Sexuality – Emily Royce](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-beyond-pain-chronic-pain-sexuality/) **Published:** October 7, 2024 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Is the process and methodology for holding space for sexological bodywork for those with chronic pain or differently-abled bodies any different than for non-differently-abled bodies? The answer may surprise you as Emily Royce, who specializes in working with communities who are on the outskirts of mainstream sexuality, shares her insights and experiences of her own journey of re-inhabiting pleasure, and how she holds space for this journey with her clients. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Pleasure Beyond Pain: Chronic Pain & Sexuality # # # # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore the relationship between chronic pain and sexuality with Emily Royce. You’ll learn how pleasure and awareness can coexist with pain and support healing and reconnection. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/EmilyRoyce.jpg "EmilyRoyce | Rahi Chun") Emily’s site: [HealWithPleasure.com](https://www.healwithpleasure.com/) Additional Resources: “The Body is Not an Apology” by Sonya Renee Taylor Sex & Disability resources: [Shauna Farabaugh’s resource list](https://www.sexualityintransition.com/resource-list): Emily Royce is a certified Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, and STREAM (Scar Tissue Remediation) practitioner who is currently President of the Association of Certified Sexological Bodyworkers and has served in this capacity for the past several years. Emily specializes in working with foix who have chronic pain and disability, or disorders that directly affect their sexuality, helping those on the outskirts of mainstream sexuality discover the pleasures hidden in their bodies, and the language around asking for what they need and want, and receiving it. “Letting Curiosity Lead” is a major tenet in how she heals with pleasure. ## What You’ll Learn About Chronic Pain & Sexuality $ How Emily’s decision to explore embodying grieving through dance, after experiences with MS since childhood – and allowing herself to feel it all, was her foray into eroticism and finding the greatest joys she has ever experienced. $ How experiencing extended kundalini meditations and immersing herself in the realms of possibility became touch points into sensuality, sexuality, and erotic trance states leading to a body knowing and remembering. $ How both kundalini yoga and sexological bodywork are similar in their inquiry : “what does my body need in this moment – moment by moment?” $ How the methodology for everyone is the same – whether differently-abled body or not – which involves asking: “how is your body in this moment, how can we invite an intimate connection and attunement with your body’s authentic desire and knowing, and how we can make this feel even better?” $ How differently-abled bodies may be used to feeling like a burden or taking up “too much space,” leading to self-apologizing due to the messaging from society of what is “normal,” – leading to feeling like you’re always behind or being too fussy. $ How the amount of repeated medicalization can wear on a person and separates them from their body’s intelligence – getting further and further away from one’s innate knowing…. And how working even slower, and untangling any sense of urgency is the medicine….always inviting the process to be client and body-led. $ How essential it is for all practitioners to question what “normal” is and consider how society’s conditioning has created what appears acceptable in a society where all bodies are unique and different. $ How “healing with pleasure” is everything – the medicine the body needs and wants and how we need to slow down, pause, and feel, to cultivate this resource in the body. $ How discovering states of neutrality in a body used to pain, can serve as a resource then leading to openings into pleasure. ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [Pleasure as medicine and pelvic healing ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) [Pelvic pain and scar tissue healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [Healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [The pace of trust in trauma healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [Trauma lives in the body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today I am thrilled to invite Emily Royce to the podcast, our Exploration of Embodi. And the sexual and sensual pleasures for differently abled bodies invites us to question how as a society, we've created these standards and norms about sexuality and embodied pleasure when everybody is so unique and different. And as practitioners, we explore how the same principles apply for anybody. Of attuning for what is true and desired moment by moment. Always questioning how can this feel even better. I am very excited to welcome Emily Royce to the podcast. Emily is also a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological body worker, as well as a scar tissue remediation and management practitioner who is currently the president of our Association of certified Sexological Body Workers. And she has been. Or past for several years now. So there's a number of things that we wanna get into. Emily specializes in working with folks who have chronic pain and or disability or disorders that directly affect their sexuality. She helps those on the outskirts of mainstream sexuality discover the hidden pleasures in their bodies and the language around asking for what they need and want and receiving it. Emily, thanks so much for joining us today. So happy to be here. Yeah. Excited to have this conversation. Awesome. Me too. Me too. I, like oftentimes when I have guests on the podcast, I feel like a natural jumping off point is inquiring about like how your life experiences shaped or influenced your path. To holding space as a sexological body worker with the audience that you do, and what has been really instrumental in your personal jo journey of your own sexual embodiment? Okay. The focal point of my work comes from, I, I developed chronic pain as a child, probably about six if I'm like trying to track it where it originated. And then just, as this stuff does, it just compounds and but it's, a lot of it is. It wasn't so much the pain and other things that developed it's the loaded stuff around it of not trying to be a burden, trying to be, I'm one of seven children, and so Oh wow. Trying to Yeah. Not be too much, too extra, too this, too that and the kind of holding and gripping and things we do around what we're experiencing. So that, that led into the path. It was all that holding and gripping. And I had this, pivotal point. I must have been, oh gosh, 34 I think it was where I decided I was gonna go on a dancing journey to be with grief, like finally consent to grieving. I think I was resourced enough. Felt supported enough by the universe. I'm like, okay, I can do this thing now. And not at all. Imagining that as I consented to grieving that within that was gonna be greater joy than I had ever experienced. I and I think that's true. Once we have this experience of, allowing ourselves to feel it all, and not trying to compartmentalize and say, I'll take this, but not that. Like once we get to see, oh yes, of course there might be more grief, there might be more sadness, there might be more longing. But there's all the other things to a much richer degree. So my foray into eroticism like really began there. Because that was like a somatic way to enter ecstasy Pleasure, but maybe in a different way. And it was during that, that this dancing journey was meditating heavily. And I'm a Kundalini yoga instructor, so it's like really wild meditations for a long time. And started this tremor that would just carry with me. And that led me to be like, I wonder. And then I went to tantra training, like a month long intensive, so it was just, it was letting curiosity lead. It was like, okay, now I'm resourced enough to face the sexuality that with, the loaded Catholic shame and the sexual dysfunction. Really problematic sexuality I'd had since I started, so at that point, co. Almost two decades, it was like, okay, now I can face the thing. So that's what led me to the sexuality world. And then once I had a lot of dysregulating. Experiences in the tantra world of not having space holding where they really knew how to be with trauma. That's what led me into sexological body work. It's something else has to exist. Yeah. Where we get to experience ecstasy, but it's not oh, we're all having a good time and it's amazing what happens when it's not? And that's what led me into, then during sexological body work, I got super fascinated with the scar work. So that's what led me to that further. Wow, that's really fascinating. I'm curious at 34 when you made the intentional choice of. I'm curious which came first. Did you choose dancing and as your body was getting engaged you came a across areas in your body of grief or was it like the conscious embracing of the grief that led to your body wanting to move and express itself? Or maybe it was like concurrent. Gosh. Yeah. It might, concurrent sounds about right. Because at that point, I had already been diagnosed with ms. I had already gone through some real difficult years. In the beginning of that diagnosis, I had gotten a divorce related to becoming ill. And then it was like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do yoga training. I'm gonna deeply immerse with spirit. I'm gonna I became, this, the yoga instructor and then I was working at a yoga studio. So I was just around this. I was going to chanting events. I was like just really immersed in the realm of. Possibility. That's what that world is. Like when you meditate and you can go to this ecstatic place, that might not make sense. That you can't explain, that you can't, try to create a code for someone else to duplicate. You just having this experience that felt like the first touch point into sexuality and sexuality, I didn't have a lot of reference points at that time. For good positive, like erotic trance or anything like that. I think about, there's something to be said right about body knowing and a remembering. Even if we feel like, oh, I've, it's never been good for me. I was able to remember at some point. No, when I was six, I was precocious, I was mischievous. I was, I took off all the tutu's to my belly outfits and would swing around the pole in my basement like. Stripping, wow, as a homeschooler, like, how did I even know how to do that? It's there's some remembrance there. Even maybe if it's not even my lifetime, the body is this is freeing, this is fun, this is liberating, Uhhuh until it's not, and when someone else discovers, but that doesn't mean that impulse wasn't there. So I think it was just remembering that like wave length at a much. A much, much older age by doing other practices, other somatic things. That made me receptive to receiving, made me receptive to remembering oh yeah. Oh yeah. I have this narrative that I was always a really serious person and things have always been hard. And then you remember a tiny little bit, you are like, wait a second. That's not the whole truth. And then it's possible. Yeah. So it was leaning into the realm of possibility and that maybe, I don't know all the things I think I know. That opens the door to oh wow, this is something I didn't have any context for, and here it is happening. But you know what, something that really stands out for me is that as a child, as a young child, you were dancing in your basement, so you were like that. That somatic memory of the joy and the energy of expressing yourself in that way was in your body, and it sounds like it got. I don't know, reawakened or remembered or tapped into at 34 when you chose to dance. And then, as you shared the trance states that a lot of Kundalini meditations can invite opens up these portals of like different possibilities, almost like. I would love your in input on this, Emily, because, as Kundalini yoga is very much about angles and like putting your body into different angular positions, invoking the breath and the sound. But I feel like Kundalini offers access to, anyone who can really. Meditate and engage in their breath and sound. I How was it for you having MS being a teacher, and did you find it limiting? It sounds like it was liberating for you. It's both like I think, because I'm an oppositional person. Like when they were like, you have to wear all white, I'm like, wore every color. I came to the first class, so funny, every possible color combination and I, but then I had surrender and then I was folded, bought in, and then I was doing two and a half hour practices starting at 4:00 AM after a cold shower and like to just play and not feel like we have to be. We embedded in whatever the thing, uhhuh, to take the techno, the thing that really stayed with me in K yoga. And this, this is a lineage with abuse. This is a lineage that got all twisted up, but there's, there are things that are like, it works. If you just do the technology. Totally. And the thing that really stayed with me in that practice was what some teachers would say, which is. And if you can't do the practice like it's prescribed this day, just envision it. Just imagine it. And your neurons are going to fire the same as if it were happening. Which is true. It's the same as I was just talking to someone about Joe Dispenza, this author who, yeah. This is very much if you believe it, you can achieve. But just imagine yourself playing piano. And. That will still like fire this for your brain as well, right? Yeah. I experienced that. It felt oh, I just did this whole set, even if half the time I was sitting here and I was doing breath work along with it and I had my eyes closed. And that really helps work on, ego. And ableism in general. This was probably my first foray into. Oh, I'm less than, I can't do the thing. Oh, I must look funny compared to the rest of the class. Oh, this, oh that. It helps in Kundalini yoga that everyone's eyes are closed. It's not maybe as competitive seeming as some other yoga studios, for example. But it was having to bump up against the edge and confront it lovingly a little bit and then back away from it. And then the other part of Kundalini, which is like seeing what you're capable of, which is a beautiful thing to experience for the self. So at a time where I felt really limited I can't do this. I can't do that. Sure. Envision it half the time. And then try what if? What if that's what, sometimes I'd find my arms being up in this wild pose. Suck crea for, we did it for over an hour and I kept my arms up the whole time, 'cause it's amazing. It's not that different than like the, the somatic sexuality work we do of it's not, it's just every single moment. What does my body need and want in this moment? Am I capable of keeping 'em up in this moment? I don't have to think about the next moment. I don't have to think about, and I don't have to push. It's not about, yeah. I wanna feel accomplished, like it's about can I, and how will, how do I feel every moment that I keep saying yes. And it's actually a genuine Yes. And I'm not coming from a place of, I have to. Or the person next to me still has their arms up, so I also have to, it's just, me, myself, and I spirit. Yeah. What are we capable of doing together? Yes. Yeah. This is really. A wonderful segue because I wanted to ask how you incorporate what's been really instrumental in your journey with your clients? And it sounds I love what underscored around when you can imagine it your neurons are firing, because your imagination is so powerful and just being present with what is and what your body needs moment to moment. Are these principles that you bring to your practice with your clients and yeah. I guess a broader question would be like what have, what do you find yourself bringing into the session space for your clients who may have chronic illnesses or physical disabilities that has been really instrumental for your journey of reclaiming your body? It's the thing is with all clients, it's like the methodology is the same with everyone. With everyone, yeah. In a way, 'cause I think we compartmentalize, differently abled bodies, but the technology is not really different. It's. How is your body in this moment? Let's do some body focusing. Let's get you connected and in a relationship with your body so that you all can be having a conversation. It's less important about me understanding exactly what to do with you. Let's figure out where you system is leading you today. The simple invitation of what would make this even better ends up sometimes taking 20 minutes, 30 minutes. People who are not. Used to being comfortable. And not used to taking time and space. So this is a little bit more with differently abled bodies where I do see this with everyone though, that folks we generally feel like a burden. We generally feel like we're too much or not enough somehow. The same time. Yep. Yep. So there's a lot of self apologizing. So that sometimes can take longer with differently abled bodies or differently abled minds. Just difference. Because the messaging from greater society of what the norm is, the pace that's normal, like that you need to be keeping up, like that's a little bit stronger and more felt maybe in a somatic way of like always feeling behind or always feeling like your needs are fussy and like you should just accept wherever is good enough, basically. So that can be really instrumental in initial sessions and really every session. Nobody saying that. People wanna be like, it's fine. We can go ahead and start with the meditation. I'm like, yeah, but with something, make this even better. And when that prompt keeps coming and then it's oh yeah, you're, yes, I do actually need something behind my knees. Okay. Actually the light is irritating. Yes, we just get closer and closer. And then what is getting it Feel that in the body of how is it to sense what I need to speak it out to receive it, and now be able to like savor and bask in that. That is like every step of the somatic sexology work that we do, compiled into one, into the. Precursor to get into a exercise when really that's its own exercise, I find. Yeah. Yeah. That, that working with differently abled folks just comes with some more, there's, I think the sensibility for folks who may work with this population is to understand or to gather resources or get exposed to. The amount of medicalization that folks who have been through the medical world that really wears on a person and their body and it really separates you from your body. Intelligence, it's by design. So if you go to many doctor's visits and you've had many procedures, surgeries, et cetera, et cetera, you're getting further and further away from your innate. Knowing of what's best for you. Yeah. Because you're constantly being told, we uhhuh the establishment know what is best for you, and it's always another procedure or medication or something else. That is not about getting into your body. It's usually about getting further away. So it's also with folks in this, these populations. I already move slow and this work moves slow, but I move even slower. So I think for anyone working with these populations to question your, it's always good to be untangling your own tenets of white supremacy, specifically urgency. Or have an idea of okay, here's a differently abled person. I'm gonna assume that their ideal is to get back to quote normal. Presume that they wanna have sexuality that looks like what's going on in the movies. So to really we don't wanna do this with any clients. Again, that's why I'm trying to generalize pan out. Yeah. Because hopefully, yeah, we bring the same sensibility of slow. Don't presume. Let it be client led. Yeah. Let it be client body led. But I think we do need to work on our own. Stuff around what Ableism for sure. Around what we think is normal or ideal. And have that be happening at the same time so that we can celebrate the trium someone's having. That might look really small, that might seem insignificant to us. Because we're comparing it to what another client was able to get to. Or we're comparing it. To, oh, I wanna get these people to have a really enjoyable sex life. And then they might have one micro movement that made self-pleasure more accessible to them and not feel like a victories to, to really celebrate that. Yeah. And least totally, savor or pause. The integration is where most of the. Neuroplasticity happens anyways. So yeah, to move slower, basically. Yeah. What I think what you're speaking to Emily is so important. Here I was like preparing for our interview, like wondering, you know what awareness as practitioners, should consider, but it's really. It's really the fundamentals, it's making sure it's client led, client empowered, attuning to the client's body. N no, no matter, how, like where the client's body is on the spectrum of ability and 'cause that's when the body is really reclaiming its own agency. And what I'm hearing is what the difference that I hear and is that because some folks who go through the kind of western medical system have been so disempowered and been told like what procedure, like so many procedures are imposed onto them that it that to just really attune to, even more so what it is that is true for the client's body and let that lead. Yeah, exactly. There has to, the wheel of consent is a beautiful tool for, again, for everybody. And this hopefully is a part of all of our practice. This can be really instrumental and empowering for people who've, been so out of consent. A lot of things yes, have been done to them. And even, I think it's really important, if we probably see, I see some big improvements when people. See me for session prior to a surgery and after, particularly prior to do body practices and listening in something like a body poem of how does the body feel about going into this procedure. And reframing it in a way, this is not my ideal, but I want you to hear this body like I am choosing this and what do we need to be on board with this can really. Feel more like a team approach of going into something. When working with folks who've often had things done to them, it might take way more prac, way more time, way more consistent practice with the wheel of consent. 'cause again, what I find is people do this apologizing burden I'm taking too long. It's good enough. I think I get it. Without no, we're really gonna stay here. What would you want me to do to your, how do you want me to touch your arm? If we're just practicing. And I was like, I don't know. Okay we'll just stay with you. I don't know until you get a sense, and you don't have to have a clear answer. You can just have, I think it might be this thing, and then we'll try a little bit and then we'll pause and we'll wait. Was that what you had in mind or is it a little bit more, we'll get it just. That can be so big for people to have an experience of oh my gosh, like I totally ran the show in that. Like in this touch experience for once in my life. Yeah. And then that gives a touch point for the rest. Then we know, like when people are like, how do you teach consent? It's like when you have an embodied experience of oh, that felt different. That becomes your compass or your guiding star of for the next things, then that's how you know when you are in consent and then choice, it might give you tools to be in more consent and choice for further procedures and things like that too. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Emily, I'm curious. I wanted to ask you the role that Healing with Pleasure played. In your own. Reinhabiting or reclaiming of your body's agency and the role that plays. 'cause I think I, I feel like on your website somewhere I saw something about like you sharing about how, it can awaken new neural pathways that have been dormant and the emphasis of healing with pleasure. And I remember a conversation we had before, you sharing about the wonders of having, of discovering orgasm through el, touch at your elbow and so and I'm really curious about the role that, that pleasure and client, your body led curiosity and inquiries about your own pleasure led to your own resource and agency and the kind of role that plays in your work with clients. Okay. It's everything. It's everything. It really is everything. It is the medicine. It, yeah. And far more effective than a lot of other medicines that we're trying to throw at ourselves. Sure. And I want to, for people hearing this, and especially for differently abled bodies, like when I say pleasure, I don't. Mean it maybe the way that a lot of people see it, when I even say sexual pleasure or sensual pleasure, it's not like it, there's, this incense that's like wafting into my face right now is highly pleasurable. So it's not it's recognizing that pleasure that we have resource in our body and it was helpful to have. My first encounters with guided, like pleasurable based meditations that invited just to find neutral, because when I first got into this stuff, every, all the pain, everything was so loud, I wasn't trained enough to even. Know how to navigate to find places I certainly couldn't access. Pleasure. And it, it exacerbated it when other people were signing. Get into your pelvis, this juicy, enjoyable, I'm like, it's not, it's very right. Painful and loud and hot and fiery. Like don't tell me what it is. But as soon as someone put neutral and allowed me and my body to decide. Okay, can I find neutral? And then I was able to feel, oh, neutral is pleasurable. Wow. To be able to find a neutral, not loud, painful spot. Yeah. That is pleasurable. Yeah. And then I could lean into that as a resource. And then that could expand on its own instead of trying to. Tinker and create or have pleasure look a certain way, or totally go through the motions and so that, for, I think for anybody you know, like pleasure is a resource for bodies that have chronic pain and things of this nature. And I think a lot of us have chronic pain. So when I. Say that. I think a lot of folks are hesitant to claim that for themselves. I often hear people be like, oh, I don't have a disability. It's just my knee hurts all the time. It's that's technically disabling. You don't have to use the term sure. And whatever the title's loaded. But if we're honest and acknowledge, oh, this is, we're all aging. Like we all have the totally and the creeks and the whatever, the banks. Pleasure is going to add an extra layer of resourcefulness, and that's, this might lean into Deb Dana's, like glimmer list with the polyvagal theory of just like compiling things, which is why I have the incense right here. Compiling things that we know send us to this place of okayness where we're like, okay, I'm a little bit regulated. We gotta be regulated to really be able to feel pleasure at its. Totally full potential. Like otherwise we can't even take it in. It's just gonna yeah. Which is what I think a lot of the sexuality world unfortunately is like more faster, harder throw, just like throwing things at ourselves to feel more. Yeah. When the curiosity in me is, can we feel more with less? Yeah. Can we start with neutral love, love that and feel into that and, so this informs. My practice because it is, it takes away the expectation or like that, that pleasure or progress is going to present in a certain way. It's, it's, it might be undefinable like, of course we're gonna move slow. But even, with my practice, even with clients, like the natural world can be a brilliant resource or. I had a client who was like, I just really wanna get into my second chakra, and was like really obsessed about this being only related to the genitals. And I was like, this is the, watery seat of emotion. I'm like, how do you feel about the world right now? I try not to think about it. I was like, maybe res, maybe actually. Think about Gaza, think about it, feel it. And then see if that activates your second chakra, right? Like it's not, it's a leaning into life to feel more but doing this in tiny, right? Yeah. All this work is small. Small, because we can get overwhelmed with good too. So it's not about. Doing a practice so much that we get into an ecstatic elevation state and we can't even ground ourselves back into integrating what we have just done. It is doing it, and that's also an accessibility thing is doing it at a pace where we can actually take in the but I feel like I just went all around and I'm not No, it's great. It's great. No, like what I'm distilling from what you're sharing and actually the thing that really. Strikes me is. This, there's this thing, and it's a cultural normative idea of what sex and pleasure and intimacy is supposed to look like. And it really gets in the way of the client led the body led experience and exploration of what's authentic. For the body in the moment by moment. And that's what I'm taking away because I think it's so fascinating that, in your own journey you shared how, you went from pain and getting to, you found the pleasure in the neutral, which is, which I love. It's so fascinating. And then from there you could like, inquire further, into neutrality and into pleasure. And what I'm hearing is, like I think this applies to anyone. I have so many clients who come in and they say, I think my pussy is broken. And it's just based on all these Cosmo articles or what's in the media. They think they should be, having these squirting orgasms or whatever their idea is. But it sounds to me like. A lot of what you, the space that you hold is to have an authentic inquiry for the client to really discover what is honest and truthful in their body moment to moment, rather than letting like these external ideas get in the way. Yeah. Yeah. Those external ideas don't seem fun for anyone. Like I don't even Exactly. The people who technically meet those criteria, whatever that is, you probably don't even feel like we're all, those things are designed to make us feel less than Exactly. That's what Exactly. Designed for, sure. Buy another thing, get surgery. Yes. Get like this. Do this Uhhuh. Yeah. Like you're broken. But Exactly. We don't need to be fixed. But also. Yeah, be being more oriented to, the client. What are your desires and wishes? It's early that I'll do an I wants list, with clients of which is usually very edgy for people. Again, because folks are coming in. Around, again, feeling like they need to get fixed. So it's more about, or I have people who are in a couple, or they come together as a couple and one of them feels like they need to get fixed for the other, oh I just need to feel okay with this other thing that this person wants, or I just need to get myself, I don't know why I have all these hangups. I, I just need to it's geared towards. If I can just fix myself or sometimes if I can fix a partner or something else then everything will be okay. And it all comes back to somatic practices of yeah. What are you noticing in your body? And that leads to everything else. Where we get to discover oftentimes much. Higher highs than people could have imagined when they were sticking to the script. So like you were saying okay, like tons of squirting orgasms. Okay, great. Like maybe a lot of people want that. But what we discover when we meet in authenticity of what do you actually want, because you might not even want that. And then we let your body do what's honest and true and follow that thread. This is you've casually mentioned the elbow chasm. It's so your listeners are probably like what this is from this place. How I discovered that it was, like first it was the knee and that was just a friend, like touching my knee and in a point of like, where I was already in a trance. And that sent, full body orgasm. And then I was like. I wonder if my elbow, and then I just started experimenting. If we can be in this space, and that came from a place of decentralizing. Genitals of things that were inaccessible to me, or I kept trying to perform sex, kept trying to perform pleasure. Oh, this person wants to do this thing to me and they wanna elicit a specific response from touching my, this specific part of my body. And that's gonna make them feel a specific kind of way, but like and it's not for everyone, but I've gotten people to circle my elbow, and then they've been like thrilled that its. This other response and they don't have to. Amazing. It's much more useful for everybody. Yeah. A lot more accessible. Sure. You can do it in public, you can do it at a restaurant. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so I want that for clients. This kind of magical but very science-based neuro plus, it's yes, they study the states of right, like psychedelics and that erotic trance is similar Yes. To these states where we bend reality and we bend what's possible. And I see it as fact, as truth again. And again, so Totally. It's what e what even is the reality that we're bending, like who's to say that's even the starting point, like Exactly. Exactly. Is that. The one that's reality or is it reality that like maybe our entire body could be a potential pleasurable opportunity, just like waiting to happen. If we bring in curiosity. Absolutely. I fully believe that. And going back to your point about psychedelic journeys and erotic trances, there's so much similarity. I feel like both the medicine world and our own kind of erotic medicine world opens up portals for touching into past traumas and deep wounds and metabolizing them in a really profound way. I feel like erotic energy. Like I feel like sex the way, most mainstream, culture sees it, is just missing the point almost. Pleasure is wonderful. I love pleasure, but to your point, a lot of it's about ego and identity and feeling like, you are accomplished as a sexual person. And when you really go into erotic states, I think you can touch into realms of consciousness that, that, that aren't accessible otherwise. Okay. Before we wrap, as I have you now as the sitting president, co-president of the Association of Certified Sexological Body Workers and you've been either serving as president or co-president or I remember a couple years ago as secretary like way back when. So you've been on the board, for quite a number of years. Like what compelled you to play such a leadership role for our community? And where do you see our field evolving into in the future? I wanted, yeah, I just felt the call. I think I felt the call from spirit and I answered, it's like this is what I was told to do, so I'm gonna show up and do it dutifully. But I wanted to be a part of. Shaping change from baby Butler, like feeling sensing. I was super, I think I joined the board and I had only been practicing six months maybe. Wow. Wow. So feeling yeah, I don't know all the things, but I wanna be part of shaping where we're going. And yeah, it's that's where. The Bipoc scholarship got created, which is just it's just meant to be an initial something to bring some awareness, some change to the field as far as who gets to practice and how that led in, like you're leading. It, the Bipoc mentorship. There's about, there's a creation of an accessibility fund that's gonna be happening this month. Oh, cool. Uhhuh. Wonderful. And then for both practitioners who might have to be outta work based on disability or injury to something you need in your office to try to make it more accessible for your clients to additional training you wanna do so that you're more equipped to be able to take on complex bodies and existences, for example. So those are, those are some things, it never feels like enough. This is part of my, probably personality, but it feels like there's a lot of things that I wanna see happen, and it feels like the future of sexological body work. I feel the tide's changing. Like it's interesting. It is a very, it's like we can go in one of. Two directions. And it feels at this point all the school heads are white folks the majority of certified sexological body workers in the world, 'cause there's still not very many of us, but the, no, they're not, majority are majority white folks. And so it. As much as I've tried to get the schools unified around commonality of mission and purpose there is resistance to that. Because there's a hyper individ visualization yes. Within sexological body work as kinda like rogue folks who are like, don't tell me what to do. I'm gonna do whatever. Totally. That is also though, a. That's white culture, this hyper individualization. So we don't quite know how to do the community resource gathering. Bring people into the fold. Be humble, step back, learn from others. There's just so many aspects there that I think is going to involve the heads of schools getting trained, getting curious. What am I missing? Where are my blind spots? Huh? I wonder what this is or this is, I wonder if I talked to another school ahead how we might do something that's difficult for us, but do it together. Like it's just, it feels and I hear the beginnings of that, with the schools, because I'm on the board because I'm on grievance council ethics committee and some of these folks are on there. I know it's starting. So it's up to the folks who are already in the field, which are the people in power are predominantly or all white to decide. Where the field is going and what matters. And I do think it's gonna start with our own education our own getting, just same as we were saying all this time with clients, getting curious, about what is here, what wants to be worked with noticing. Where we need resources and to share with each other because we're missing a lot. As far, I still think that sexological body work is a beautiful field. We're missing a lot as far as how to be with all bodies. And what those bodies might bring, right? So if we loop it back to accessibility and just working with differently abled bodies, then we are in the same, it's oh, why are, why does our field have a harder time? Approaching that or venturing into that. And Shauna Farba does great work with this around accessibility, in our field. But she has said there needs to be more of us. Why am out, why am I out here like saying the things and other people not picking that up. And I do think it's related to the racial composition of the people who are making the decisions who are deciding where we go. And I think that yeah, like disability is linked in with that, or the awkwardness, if we're gonna be generous, like the awkwardness around disability, and and how these different bodies present is very much linked in perfectionism and other topics of white supremacy. So we get, we have, that's where I see the future is okay. Keep going as it does. And that's still good in a lot of ways. Totally. Totally. Or if they wants to be in this like next frontier of Right. Really providing healing presence to a multitude of bodies in a trauma-informed way. Then there's this other kind of foray this other leaning into the aspect that we can do that I think will give us many fruits. Probably. Surprising, not predictable fruits. Which is the beauty of it. Yeah. And the opportunity, just in our conversation you've underscored so many like incredible insights that are applicable to, to any client that it's almost like the meditation of. Being slow and moving at a slower pace than what we're used to. Can bring such insights and a tremendous like skillset to any practitioner who's not used to that by working with, folks who are disabled. Everything that you mentioned, just exploring the whole terrain of the body as a healing potential and the new neural pathways. These are all applicable to any client, but I think it's almost like. If we can open up as a field to be more inclusive then it's just gonna. Enrich all of us as practitioners and enrich, our society just in general, to be a liberated, like group of souls. So for listeners who are not sexological body workers, there are currently, I believe seven trainings all around the world. Portugal, uk, Australia. Berlin obviously North America and each has its own identity. And Emily speaking to the desire to really work as a community so that we can bring, the pot potential, realize the potential of sexual empowerment and embodiment to all bodies. Emily, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate everything that you shared, and I am excited for our audiences to, to yeah, to learn from our discussion today. Yay. Thank you so much for having me. And Emily for people who wanna reach out to you and learn more about your work and your offerings, can you share how people can get in touch with you? Yeah, it's heal with pleasure. Dot com. And when you go there, you can sign up for an intro meditation too that I'll just send into you automatically and then you can get a taste of the work as well. And that puts you on the mailing list, which I am not going to bombard you, but then if some kind of new offering comes up you'll. Get, be in the know. And then I'm on Instagram at Pleasurable Healing. I work both virtually and in person. So I am in Michigan, but I work with people. I have clients all around the world. Awesome. How lucky for them. Awesome. Emily, thanks so much. Thank you. How is this episode landing for you? In your body right now, if your body is familiar with chronic pain states, have you ever considered consenting to feeling and dancing its grief or deeply meditating on states of neutrality? If we liberate ourselves from society's norms of what pleasure looks and feels like. What are novel ways your body may be enticed to explore itself? Have you ever explored the orgasmic, delicious states of your elbow or your knee, or perhaps your ear lobe, either in private or at your favorite restaurant? Links to Emily's website. Heal with pleasure.com and a wide range of resources for differently abled bodies are in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** Differently-abled Body, Emily Royce, Inspiration, Pleasure Practices, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexual Healing --- ### [Reclaiming Pleasure After Sexual Trauma – Violet Lange](https://rahichun.com/podcast/reclaiming-pleasure-after-sexual-trauma/) **Published:** April 9, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** What does the journey of reclaiming and restoring our organic sexual embodiment and nature involve when healing from childhood sexual abuse? There are as many paths as there are sacred journeys to healing. Today, we have the privilege of listening to one such journey, as Violet Lange shares her experiences, both as a survivor of sexual abuse, as well as a guide and coach for women to live a life of pleasure, attuned and in alignment with their embodied feminine nature. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Reclaiming Pleasure After Sexual Trauma # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how sexual trauma impacts the body and blocks pleasure, sensation, and intimacy. You’ll learn how trauma is stored in the nervous system and how somatic healing helps you rebuild safety, reconnect to your body, and reclaim pleasure. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/VioletLange-e1611156455603-300x300.jpg "VioletLange | Rahi Chun") [VioletLange.com/talk](http://www.violetlange.com/talk) [FB: Groups/ArtofPassionateIntimacy](https://www.facebook.com/groups/artofpassionateintimacy) [IG: VioletLoveLange](https://www.instagram.com/violetlovelange/) [YouTubeChannel: VioletLangeVideos](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBl1dT4mI8jti0OVccHdiMg/videos) [](https://www.zhalehboydphillips.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Violet Lange is a devoted mama, ice cream afficionado, and expert in dating, intimacy, and relationships. She helps successful, spiritual women attract and create healthy, lasting love. As a survivor of sexual abuse, she champions women connecting with their bodies, sensuality, and pleasure. Violet Lange’s Pleasure Path podcast highlights the variety of ways we can feel good, even while doing deep healing. Violet has her MBA from Harvard Business School, training from Coach Training Alliance, and is a 500 hour certified Yoga Teacher as well as Reiki Master. She offers complimentary consults at [www.violetlange.com/talk](http://www.violetlange.com/talk) ## What You’ll Learn About Healing Sexual Trauma & Reclaiming Pleasure $ “Learning to trust my body meant paying attention to my body sensations – trusting my body’s Yeses and No’s…. when I didn’t do that, I would get triggered, I would shut down, I would get very dry vaginally – not be able to really feel any lubrication or pleasure.” $ How learning to be present with her sensations, rather than chronically “doing” as a coping mechanism to avoid feeling was a key shift in Violet’s journey of reclaiming her body’s pleasure. $ How repressed memories of past violations can return when the nervous system is feeling resourced and safe enough within one’s body and with the support of trusted relationship/s. $ How wired associations of past abuse with specific sensations – an image, smell, or touch of a particular body part, can trigger a reflexive self-protective muscular guarding, emotions, or dissociation – until the wiring is recognized and uncoupled. $ How a turning point in Violet’s sexual reclamation journey involved surrendering to the wisdom of her Body’s Center/Hara – which kept her from boarding a plane to meet someone her body knew was not good for her, despite her mind’s rationale. $ How the Jade Egg practice can be instrumental in reclaiming sensation, sensitivity, pleasure and awareness, and how first uncoupling the genitalia with unpleasant past events may be a pre-requisite. $ Violet shares her journey of choosing to face her perpetrator, how it was the most difficult experience of her life, and how she wouldn’t have done it any other way. $ How Violet’s physiology changed and she found her inner protective Mama Bear as a result of confronting her perpetrator and protecting & standing up for her younger aspects. $ How as Violet exemplifies through her sexual reclamation journey and now shares through her body of work: “When we follow our pleasure, we find our power.” ## ## → Explore more on Somatic Sexual Healing This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Related Eps on** Sexual Trauma Healing & Nervous System Regulation [How the pace of trust in trauma healing is foundational to creating new patterns](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) [How healing sexual trauma and rebuilding intimacy can be joyful, pleasurable and empowering](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) [How our childhood sexual imprints can inform our adult intimacy behaviors](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-childhood-imprints/) [How trauma is stored in the body and how we can access preverbal healing by listening for what it needs](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Violet Lang to the podcast, an expert in dating intimacy and relationships. And creator of the Pleasure Path, violet guides and supports women to reclaim the pleasure path in their lives by restoring their sexual nature, embodiment and sovereignty as she has done in her own life as a survivor of sexual abuse. If you are a survivor of sexual abuse, please be advised that we will be discussing sensitive material and to support yourself by listening with a trusted friend or in a space and time where you can feel supported and grounded in your body. I am really happy and delighted and thrilled to be inviting Violet Lang to our show today. There are many things I can share about Violet because I've known her for years, both as a colleague and as a friend. I feel like the work that she's doing in the world is so needed and so extraordinary. She holds a sacred space for women to become the queens that, that women can be. She's an expert in love dating and relationships. I would also add to that she's an expert in the journey of reclaiming and restoring one's. A powerful, embodied sexuality and pleasure because she's gone through that journey herself and now she's holding that space for others. Violet, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you, Rocky. I'm delighted. I really appreciate the work you do in the world, and I'm grateful to be part of your offerings. Awesome. Violet, there's so much we can cover including your work, which I'd love to get to. I really think it's so powerful and empowering for listeners to hear. The inner journey that takes place as one is going through healing from past abuses and getting to a place of really taking ownership, really reclaiming ownership of their embodied sensations. Arousal and pleasure. From the outer perspective, I think it's easy for people to see your evolution going from like Harvard, MBA corporate world in New York to the yoga world. Being, program director for yoga works, to now being a love and relationship. Guide and coach. I would love to explore more of the inner journey that you've taken, with the intention of empowering listeners who may be in relationship with someone who's en endured and o survived from sexual abuse, or who's gone through it. If you can share some of the elements of your experiences that you have overcome and what you feel like some of the key turning points were for you on that journey. I would love to share, and of course there's many moments and it's a journey, so I think it's helpful as your listeners, I'm sure know, to set aside any outcome or agenda like when you're going through this process. So one. Of the shifts was learning to be instead of do, which I'm still learning and I feel like we're all learning, but I learned that from my Reiki teacher. So it wasn't related to sexuality directly, but it did impact, like how I was showing up for my healing journey is focusing on how I was being and what my sensations were and being present versus on what I was doing because I was getting. And had have been very addicted to activity. And I think that's a coping mechanism. It's a way to numb out from what our body's saying, to be so focused on our to-do list or so focused on what other people think. So being and paying attention, and then learning to trust myself. There's a lot that happened. When I was younger, being sexually abused when I was young, that I didn't know what it meant to trust myself because I thought I must have created this experience, or I must have wanted it, or I must have done something for this to happen and. You can't fathom when you're young, someone of power taking that from you or going through that experience. And so it's almost like my mind had a story that I couldn't trust myself that I was bad. I internalized the thing that had happened. And so learning to trust myself meant learning to trust my body. And if my body said no, then that was actually a no. Because a lot of times I got into, I should say. Problems. I had challenges in my relationships sexually, where at the beginning things would be great. There'd be passion and chemistry. And then the closer that we got in our emotional and other intimacy, the more that I would withdraw and dissociate from the relationship and from sex, because from. The closeness started to mirror the closeness of my family relationship where the abuse had happened. And so learning to trust my body meant paying attention to my body sensations, trusting my body's yeses and nos. When I didn't do that, I would get triggered. I would shut down, I would get very dry vaginally, like not be able to really feel any sort of lubrication or pleasure. And then I would sometimes push the other person away physically or energetically. And so the root of it was. Learning to trust myself, learning to pay attention to my body and getting out of performance mode. 'cause part of this, doing all the time was also doing sex as if oh, if I do it mechanically right and my partner gets an orgasm, then I'm safe. Then they don't have to realize that there's something wrong with me. Wow. There's so many really important points that you shared there. I, the thing that stands out the most is just recognizing that when a young body does have an outer agenda, a evasive boundary, breaching agenda imposed onto it, it does naturally shut down. And feeling one's intuition, feeling and really listening accurately for one's, authentic yes and no becomes can become a challenge. Definitely I remember feeling confused often of what was okay, what wasn't okay. What was my pleasure? What was their pleasure? I think I spent most of my twenties. Having sex. That was sometimes enjoyable, sometimes not. And I didn't actually have that much sex in my first marriage. It was almost a sexless marriage because of some of these challenges and issues. But I think I had defined good sex as the other person is happy, the other person has an orgasm, the other person thinks I'm good at sex. Versus what is my body telling me? Is this something that I like? Is this opening or closing me? Can I ask for what I want and need? Do I even. Know what that would feel like to feel safe enough to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Those are such profound shifts that happened later on, it sounds like for you, but, I feel like what you are speaking to as far as assessing the success. Quote, unquote, of a sexual intimate encounter speaks to that doing mentality, that doingness, which also speaks to just what you alluded to at the beginning, that your Reiki teacher or engaging in reiki taught you, the difference between doing and being and whether the focus is. Outer or the focus can be really inner. Yeah. That must have been such a profound game changer for you. Given how driven you were on doing I'd love to, like how did you, your path come across Reiki and what was that like? It must have been I don't know, what was that transition like for you? I was introduced to my Reiki teacher really serendipitously. I was working at Yoga Works at the time. I was walking my dog and I saw her, I didn't know she was in her car at the time, but I saw a sign on her car that said Sacred Adventures. And then I struck, it, struck something in me and I looked up and we made eye contact 'cause she was sitting in her car and I found her website later. I think I had thought Sacred Ventures was like a business venture or like retreats or something, but it was all about the inner world and I had never heard of Reiki before, but I reached out to her and then I had a session or two and then I decided to learn more and take some of her trainings. But it feels like to me it was a safe way to access. Energy and presence and being in touch with what I was feeling and noticing in my body intuitively without it having to be explicitly sexual. Although I knew that I had issues with sexuality when I found her, I actually, I can't remember. If it was right before or right after, it was very closely entwined with when I had my first actual memories, because I had suppressed a lot of this, so I didn't realize I was so sexually shut down until some of the memories started coming back. In hindsight, I can see wow, I really had some issues, but I don't think I was able to. To be aware of where they stemmed from until later. Which was around the same time that I found the reiki. So it sounds like whether it was facilitated by this going direction inward or more deeply nourished, if the memories came back right before the timing of it was really fortuitous. And I just wanna say one other thing, which is that. I don't know your thoughts on this. I'd be curious, but I feel like our nervous system, our body, our environment, when we're ready for healing, the healing comes. So if anyone's listening and thinking, oh, do I have suppressed memories or does my partner, maybe you don't, but your body will, sorry, my dog is barking. Your body will it's okay. Your body will tell you. Things that are going on, what your sensations are, and you don't have to be afraid of something waiting to come up. Like it's, it comes, anything will come up at the perfect time when you have the right ecosystem and tuition to, to manage it and deal with it. Yeah, I completely agree. The way I've looked at it is when there is enough resourcing or safety within the nervous system or around the nervous system at that point, the memories, it's like the psyche knows then it can handle, the memories coming back. And so what often happens, or what I see a lot is. When someone gets into a safer relationship or an emotional dynamic that feels safer, then blacked out, memories can start returning. And what can be very confusing sometimes is the person may be triggered by their current safe relationship when in fact it's old memories or old wounds coming to the surface to be addressed, and they're only coming up because of that sense of safety in the dynamic. Exactly. That's been my experience too, is sometimes I would get triggered during intimacy and you think oh my God, what's wrong with me? Or, is this because of my partner? But it's to your point, just because there's safety where something can finally come up and the current trigger isn't necessarily created by the partner. They're just holding space for it to be, managed or healed in a different way. You mentioned earlier, violet, how you recognized the pattern of relationships in your twenties where things got hot and heavy in the beginning, and then when it got to a place where it edged into an intimacy that reminded you of some family intimate dynamics, that's when the shutting it shutdown would happen. Violet I think it would be so instructive. For listeners to recognize how this past wounding can show up during sexuality, during sexual intimacy. For you when that happened, when you were getting close to feeling vulnerable and intimate, would you dissociate? Would your body just, you, you mentioned pushing away energetically or sometimes physically, what were some of the ways that it showed up? A lot of it was, like you said, pushing away. I remember my first boyfriend in high school would sometimes, try to put his hands up my skirt, and sometimes that would be welcome, but sometimes it's like my body would freeze and I would just push his hands away. He would say things like, oh, I, I wish you didn't do that. Or I feel disrespected, or that you don't want me when that happens. And he was actually very emotionally healthy, but I didn't at the time know why I was doing that. I think because I grew up in a Christian household, there was also like the sex is dirty and I shouldn't be doing this. But it was layered with the religious trauma, but also the sexual trauma from my childhood. And so that was a clear. Thing that happens sometimes is the pushing away and the almost the shaming of the other person sometimes because I couldn't explain why it was happening, it would be, I would feel bad and then I would maybe make them feel bad. And then in my, in my marriage, I got married when I was 22, and we were married until 27. But pretty much the second year of our marriage we just really stopped having sex, stopped having any intimacy, and even before then, it wasn't very frequent. So we both, I think, had made this pact that we were just not gonna have sex and not really talk about it. And the internal awareness was feeling queasy and feeling slimy and wanting to get away, which is, I think why I would push away is because it just felt in, felt nauseating. And then it also would feel a bit like I was spinning like my, my sense of vertigo or my sense of balance was going away. And then if I didn't push someone away after the nausea or the spinning, then I would dissociate. Then I would just check out, and the story I would tell myself is this is just what sex is, the guy, pounds, bounty, for lack of better word, like it's that porn star sex of just quick, rapid, hard penetration and you just take it. And you think about other things you just check out. But then unfortunately, it would get to the point in the relationship where I had betrayed myself and abandoned myself so many times that I couldn't. I keep myself coherent in the relationship and stay in the relationship. So instead of addressing the sexual issue, I would leave the relationship. So I would date someone or they would leave, so I would date someone for three months and then. I would just be like, no, I don't wanna date you anymore. But it's because the sex represented all of these things that I couldn't break through or someone would date me for six weeks or three months, a very short time. It was always less than three months, and they would then break up with me and. In hindsight, I think I know why that they couldn't feel my presence. I wasn't vulnerable and I would get passive aggressive with them. I would make little jokes or little jabs, and I think it was my way of trying to assert some sort of power or some sort of control despite all this stuff happening under the surface, which I can really only give name to now after going through all of this. But yes, to me it showed up as all of these sensations. As certain environmental triggers for me, like around 11 o'clock at night with soft lighting was always a trigger because it reminded me of a nightlight and I think that's when things would happen. So there were certain environmental ones, but then there was also just internal ones that were, regardless of the time or the environment, what you're speaking to is also so important. And that's to recognize that there are. Really powerful associations and wiring that occurs when one is abused, especially as a child, 11 o'clock soft lighting for example. For some people it just could seem really bizarre, but it's actually, it could be, the wallpaper of the child's bedroom and something reminding. Of that wallpaper when you're an adult, can shut you down. And it can be very confusing to both people. But also the nausea that you described, again, the body remembers everything and it sounds like the experiences of that abuse would come up to, your tissues were being reminded of that abuse. So this was all, I'm sorry, were you gonna say something? I just wanted to say one other thing, which is, as you were talking about the tissues of the body, remembering on the right side of my body. I don't know what muscle it is. You probably would one of the deeper tissue, abdominal muscles or the right side of my body, like below my belly button, towards my pelvis. That was always so sensitive. I remember like if anyone would touch that, I would flinch. I would just curl up and or I would get really ticklish and start laughing, but feel gross inside at the same time. So there's definitely like a muscular pattern and I think it's only been. In the last few years, it was later in my healing journey that started to go away. That sense of tickling. But even now with Jason, with my husband, sometimes I have to be more mindful or pay more attention to my body if there's if he's using his fingers versus if there's intercourse with penetration. Because the way that I was sexually abused was primarily with fingers. And there is a way that my body used to tense or used to have this flicker of self-protection and then la trying to laugh it away. That, that, I just remembered when you were saying that. Yeah. That's really instructive. There are so many defense responses that, that we come up with, and laughter can be a common one, but also that the body, does remember, I'm wondering, do you think it might have been the SOAs muscle? Probably, yeah. Yeah. As you were saying that, because it's above the hip bone. Yes. I think that's, I think that's probably what it was. So the SOAs muscle, the Tibetans refer it to as the muscle of the soul, because it does remember all of our traumas and our unintegrated emotions. So all of what you're describing now, violet, was before the memory, before you started working with the reiki. Teacher and before the memory came back, I'm guessing that when the memory came back and as they continued to integrate, like so much of your past behavior just made so much sense to you? Definitely. I think it took a while for me to open up about it and believe myself and unfortunately. The first person that I told was my boyfriend at the time, and I thought it was gonna be helpful to tell him because we had some of these encounters. I can just remember it so viscerally where I could tell I didn't really wanna have sex, but he did. And so I said yes. And then I would get triggered and I would push him away and he would say, what's wrong with you? Why don't you like sex? Or what the F is wrong with you? And then it would just be this compounding of shame. So then I thought, oh, I, I don't wanna be that girl who doesn't want sex, so I'm gonna say yes more often. But of course, the more often I said yes, then the more I would get triggered. And it was just this vicious pattern, even though in some ways he was safe and it was safe enough for me to kinesthetically for these things to come up. And then. I would, I had a memory the first time actually in Shavasana doing yoga and in Shavasana, all of these memories came back and I told my partner at the time and he said, oh, I think you're crazy. You're making that up. That wouldn't have happened. And he had a lot of judgment about it. So I pushed it back down for a little while, which of course didn't help. But then once I actually. Knew that this is my journey, this is my truth, this is my body. And also once I started to get professional help beyond I don't wanna discount yoga or other things. I think they're great healing modalities. But I imagine you would agree that I. It doesn't take the place of working with someone specifically on somatic therapy or like you do sexological body work or yoni egg practices with a mentor. Like this is not something I would recommend anyone try to work through on their own because it happens in relationship and it needs to be healed in relationship. That's, yeah, I can't underscore that enough. It is a relational dynamic that needs to be repaired within a relational dynamic. And again, not to discount all of the wonderful, and important and essential self-honoring embodied practices especially the jade egg practice, amongst others. Critical really great. And yeah, it's almost because the. Trauma happened in a relational dynamic. It needs to be restored or rewritten within a relational dynamic. Where one is, where one feels safe and empowered. When I was on your site, I read this story about, I'll just call it the airport. Because it was such a, it was so cinematic, right? I love that story because it is, I think we've all been there where a plane's about to leave. Do we go get on it? Do we not? Everything in our body is saying one thing, but the rationale is like screaming something else and you made like this. This choice to honor yourself and to honor your body, and to honor your wellbeing. Was that like a turning point for you in your reclamation? Because it seemed that way when I read it. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because there's so many turning points that I forgot to mention that one, but that was pivotal. I, I think that was in 2013. I can't remember exactly, but. I had been dating someone who was not a safe person. I think there was the illusion that it could be safe because there was some familiarity. How we think that someone is safe because we know them, or we've known them from the past because our friends know them. But this is just for anyone that's, dating or thinking about entering partnership. Like just because they're in your friend circle or just because you've known them for a while, doesn't. So doesn't replace the felt sense of being around them and what happens with your body when you're around them. A lot of times my clients will talk about who they are looking for and it's resume things versus an internal awareness of how you are with someone. But with it, with that story I had been seeing this person for about six weeks, but we had known each other for longer. They lived in in a different part of the country and they wanted me to meet them in New York City. And I had, I can't remember all the details, but I had heard that they had. I can't remember the sequencing, but my body was basically a no, even though my head was like, oh, come on, you should just go. So I had booked my plane ticket. I was literally in the airport. I had this little red suitcase and was flying Virgin America and the, they were calling for the gate and saying, calling for the seats. They even called my name and I just pretended it wasn't me. And then I just could not get myself to get on that plane. And I think in hindsight, or it had that happened two or three or five years sooner, I would've definitely gotten on the plane and then it would've created all of this emotional and physical drama and trauma really re-traumatizing myself. But I got into a place, I can feel it in the, it's like my, the horror or the don, like in between the second and third chakra where. It could not be moved. It was like this solid center that was not gonna let me get on that plane. And it's helpful to know that we all can build a resource like that. I think there are four steps that you have in the way you guide your clients, and it seems like the first one is all about, it really is. It comes down to a conscious choice, choosing our, our wellbeing over the needs of somebody else. Along your journey, violet, certainly the memories coming back, certainly the. Practice of beingness rather than doing this. And this pivotal, I think the most pivotal decision to choose yourself. From there, what were instrumental in you really inviting your sensations and your pleasure back to your embodiment. Let me just ask a clarifying question. Like what tools or practices or. Yeah, whether they're tools or practices or experiences. Great. Thank you for sharing. So first of all, recognizing that pleasure is important. I think as women, we get told this narrative that it's about the man's pleasure. It's about his orgasm, it's about the performance, this kind of porn culture, and that it's all just about penetration. That's the only sex that really matters, and that's the only type of experience that matters instead of. Anything that feels good in my body is good and is okay as long as it's not harming someone else. Like even gentle touch or light massage or making eye contact or there's plenty of ways that, that my body can experience, pleasure and is designed for pleasure. I think all bodies are designed for pleasure and designed to feel good. So that was absolutely. That was key instead of this kind of puritanical performance based, productive space. And there was another, aspect of that, which is not only reclaiming my pleasure, but also reclaiming my body awareness. And it didn't happen in the same sequence. It happened before the airport story, but I had hurt my leg and my foot when I was running, and I was given the instructions to massage that part of my body. And I remember weeping at one point because it was the first time in my life I thought, oh, this is my body. Like I was touching my body and I don't think I had. I realized how disembodied I was, that it didn't click like in a visceral way, that this was actually my body until I had that injury, until I was doing self massage on my foot. So bringing that same sort of perspective to Myoni and to my labia and my clitoris and all of these places like, oh, this is mine. This isn't just a foreign place that things happen at. It's this is my body. This is something that is, mine to decide and also mine to explore. That means also the onus is on me There. It is my responsibility then to figure out what makes me feel good, what turns me on, what doesn't feel good to reclaim my pleasure. So I think maybe I wasn't ready to take on that responsibility yet, but then when I did, it made me realize. That it's up to me to have really healthy, positive sexual experiences, and I can create that by finding resources and tools and support. So somatic therapy was really helpful. Reading the works of Peter Levine and Bessel Vander Cook with the Body Keeps the Score. Courage to Heal was also a great book. None of that would've mattered in my mind, other than the cognitive understanding of it without the support of in-person or at least virtual connection with an actual human being like we've mentioned. So my somatic therapist my Reiki teacher was great in terms of the energy and the chakras and being present. But again, that wouldn't have been enough. I have seen a pattern, I don't know if you agree with this or not, where people who've experienced trauma and especially sexual trauma, will keep reaching for spiritual tools and not want to reach for the embodied tools, whether that's sexological body work or a somatic therapist or other tools. Yeah, the somatic therapy, some of the book stuff, Reiki breath work, and also body scan, body awareness, meditations, like noticing, okay where it feels open, where it feel feels closed. Is this tingly? Is it numb? Just developing the language around what is my body going through? And then applying that to my sexual center and applying that to my skin or my breasts and not just to my knee or my toes. So some of that I I did on my own. It was like, oh, okay. The body scan meditation feels really good. What if I did that for these other parts of my body? Yeah. To develop. That felt sense. So I'm hearing a real conscious reclamation and taking ownership that this body is yours, not only yours to feel and enjoy, but yours to take responsibility for. In hindsight, like that foot or leg injury was a blessing 'cause it really taught you that yes, this body is mine and it's mine to explore and mine to really care for the deep dive into somatic embodiment. Through, Peter's work and Bessel VanDerKolk's book, my favorite book of all time and working with a somatic therapist really invited you to explore your sensations. In ways maybe you hadn't before because the focus was really outward, so now it's really focused inward in regards to taking ownership of your pelvis and genitalia. You mentioned the Jada Egg Practice. At what juncture did that enter your self celebration and how important was it for your journey? I love that you calls, you called it self celebration. That feels so good. I love that phrase. So for me, I didn't discover the jade egg until I had already been doing the somatic awareness therapy and the breath work and body scan meditation and all of that. I had been doing that for a few years, so I think I found the JDA in 2015 and I had started going to my somatic therapist. 2012\. So it had already been a while. In hindsight, it would've been great to discover the jade egg sooner because it's such a profound tool for giving you a place to anchor your awareness. As women, oftentimes, unless it's a penis or a tampon or a dildo or a sex toy, we don't oftentimes feel or think of that part of my body. And to be totally honest, when I was. Self celebrating. In my late twenties and early thirties, it was normally with clitoral stimulation, sometimes with my hand, but oftentimes with a vibrator. It was like I was almost afraid to touch that part of myself just with my hand. It's like we sometimes think we need this other implement, which there's nothing wrong with that. No shame if that's how someone chooses to self celebrate. But it was almost like I made this journey from. Not ever having touched myself until I was 27. That was the first time I masturbated. And then just using a vibrator on my clitoris to then finding a jaded egg and using the jaded egg and doing different sort of practices with that. Because the jaded egg can be about pleasure, but it can also be about sensitivity, about diaring and healing and a giving you a place to anchor your awareness because there's such intricate musculature down there. We oftentimes just get told oh, it's just a Kegel, like squeeze, like you can not go pee for a few seconds, but it, that's just one tiny little piece of it or muscular type of control. And then I also recommend and teach with my clients using like a glass wand or a different crystal wand to d or the cervix and connect with the cervix. And so the, it's gone from very surface level. Vibrator on the clitoris to yoni egg and glass wands on the cervix. And it's been great. And then including a little bit of anal exploration, and I won't get into all of that, but it's I think I had to go slowly because my mind was maybe not quite open. So my body was learning to be open as my mind was learning to be open too. Yeah, it's it feels to me, violet correct me if I'm wrong, but that journey of not self pleasuring with your hand until you were 20, or not self pleasuring until you were 27, and then clitoris and then jade egg, and now the cervix. It's really mirrored your. Your healing journey and your, your ownership of all parts of your body and your sexuality, which is just so beautiful, and I think it's very common for those who've been sexually abused to associate those parts of our genitalia. With either an unconscious memory or an unconscious shaming. And so to really like revel and take ownership of it sometimes can only happen once that healing's taken place. And of course, that can be an integral part of the healing as well. Yeah, absolutely. Violet, I am wondering if the role that confronting your perpetrator played in your. In your journey, how did you come to the decision to confront and face your perpetrator, and what advice would you have for people who may be considering facing their sexual abuser? I am a big fan of bringing things into the light to use that metaphor so that if you feel like you want to express something or confront the perpetrator, I think it's a beautiful thing and that people can do it in the way that feels best for them. I think some people write letters or they nowadays write emails or they. They find a way to get it out so that it can be seen for what it is. I remember there was a point in my journey where I said to my therapist my dad, my, my dad sexually abused me. And she was like, wow, that's really profound. And I thought, why? And she said up until this point in our journey, you've always said I was sexually abused. And now you're saying, no, this person did this thing to me. And I think in our culture, we're afraid of being called a victim or seeming whiny, but the truth is, someone did something to you, it's something that happened. And as much as we want to spiritually bypass that and be like, I create my reality and all my experiences, like there are times when something has happened to you where someone betrayed your boundaries or did not listen to your no. Or abused a power dynamic. And so just getting to that point of saying. Something happened to me and it's okay to talk about it, and it's okay to talk about it with that person. I have no idea why I chose this route, but intuitively I decided to talk to my family in person because I think I wanted to know their response and I wanted to have an opportunity for healing. I think there was part of me that knew that. There could be a lot of ossification and back and forth and triangulation because of the dynamics. So I just wanted to like, see firsthand what the response was gonna be and be able to see and feel it in my body versus being told. At later time through different sort of communication. So I decided to not write a letter or send a text or any of that. I decided to do it in person, but with my partner by my side, which has really helped. I asked my somatic therapist if she would be willing to be in the room too, and she said No, and I totally respect that. But if you don't have a partner and you want someone else by your side, have a friend you trust, have your therapist, have someone, you don't have to do it alone, and you can do it in any format that works for you. So for me, it was in person. Because of all the things I expressed and, it was probably the most difficult moment of my entire life, but in hindsight was an important moment. One of the most important moments because. I was holding one reality that I had been sexually abused and my body remembered, and I had been on this healing journey. I think when I brought it up to my family, it was maybe five or six years after my first memory, so I waited on it a while. Some people have the memory and immediately are like, I just remembered this happened, but I think I didn't feel safe enough to do that, or I might've energetically known that had I done that. I would've gotten shamed or told I was crazy. So I, my psyche probably wasn't strong enough to tell, talk about it with them until this point anyway, in 2017 I had the discussion and it didn't go very well. And since then I really don't have any contact with my family outside of my brother and. Had I known that I still would've made that decision. Like it still was really important to me for myself and for my now daughter. Like at the time I remember thinking, I'm gonna have children of my own, and if I have this reality in my body and in my life, and I've been on this healing journey, and these other people have this other reality, how are we gonna get those realities to live in the same space? And I realize that they can't. And. Could we have continued a very surface level relationship, having unearthed and brought this all to the surface? I couldn't, compartmentalize myself like that anymore. What I, from my understanding of that experience for you my understanding is that you felt so free and authentically real in relating with them after having had that conversation. It seems like it was a real integral part of your reclaiming your life, your story, and who you are. Absolutely. And I think I found you and your services. Right around that time, or maybe I can't, I think it was maybe after or right after. But we had some healing sessions where you helped me to integrate the conversations that I had and helped me to just feel at home in my body even more because. We think it's the conversation or it's the letter, but these things have built up over many years and it takes some time to unravel it in our own body. It took me like, seven years or something, five years, and then it takes time to have those discussions and the other people have to process it. And my ask was that we just go to therapy as a family. I was like, if we can go to therapy as a family. Who knows, maybe a year. Like it doesn't have to be forever. I just wanna have some shared reality. I want a space where we can talk about these things. And my family refused. They were like not willing to do that. And I thought that was a fairly reasonable ask. I wasn't asking them to believe me. I was just asking us to have a container for us to talk about it and they weren't willing. So that showed me, if they're not willing to have a container to even have some discussions for one hour a week or every few weeks, then. Their their desire to put energy into the healing journey for the family as a constellation was very different than my desire to put energy into the healing journey for the family. Yeah, I do remember that. I think you actually had the conversation with them. I think I saw you before and after. Oh, cool. Yeah, and what I noticed in your body, somatically violet, is that like for example, during the TRE, the way your body would tremor or the way you were holding tension, I think it was in your right side before, and then it was more looser like in your neck area. The way your body was available to you seemed to have shifted. And I feel like part of that, I just remember in one of your sessions. There was something around you claiming your own mama bear. I don't know if that makes sense to you. Yes. But it's because you are, because no one protected you. When you were younger, there was both the grief to feel that. But once you felt the grief and the sadness, you found your anger and your power, that you were gonna protect your own. Younger self. And that seemed to be, I don't know, it was so powerful to see that in your body, the mama bear taking over your body. Yes, I do remember that viscerally, it feels like a kind of bent knees and a little bit sunk down into my hips and a good way and chest leaning forward. And it's interesting, I, I. Remembering now as you're saying that I didn't have the access to that sort of self-preservation. I even remember my first husband being like, you have no self-preservation skills. 'cause I would burn myself while cooking. Like I just wasn't really in my body and I wasn't valuing or noticing my body. And yes, it was a huge shift in my power and in my ability, even as you're saying that I remember. For a lot of my life, my hips were tightened in different ways, and so my left leg would seem shorter than my right leg. But I recently have re, re-triggered that a little bit with just carrying Ruby on my hip. Oh yeah. Like my hips are being a little bit weird, but it's funny because the felt sense of my hips being a little bit off. I'm like, wow, I haven't felt that in, three or four, three or four years. And it is, it was getting healed around that time that you and I were doing that deep work together. Yeah. Yeah. And as we're sharing this conversation I feel compelled to underscore to listeners that there's no right or wrong way to go about your reclamation journey. The pace of your body needs to be honored fully, and whether it's confronting the perpetrator or whatever energy has got stuck, there's no right or wrong way to. To open up that stuckness and, this is just a wonderful and gracious opportunity to explore with Violet, her journey and what worked for her. I'm glad you mentioned that because it's different for every person and it's different for every kind of constellation of family and partnership. And, but I do know that every step you take in your healing journey, regardless of the sequence pays off massively and more freedom in your body, more authenticity in your relationships, more pleasure in your life, like it's. It's the most important thing I've ever done. Yeah. You know what I love about one of your one of the tags to your business is, I think it's follow your pleasure, find your power, and I think that's so accurate. Because our power comes from our embodiment and the embodiment gets deepened when we say yes to receiving pleasure. Yes. And it feels yes. And it feels like that's been such an integral part of your reclaiming of your body and your sense of sexual sovereignty is feeling your body kind of redirecting the focus inward. And allowing yourself to feel all of the, I, I'm sure there were very uncomfortable experiences of what you had to feel in the tissues in order to integrate them and have them resolve and release from your system. Absolutely. And I think too that until we really know and allow for pleasure, boundaries don't feel as important. But once you know how something feels, that feels good and attuned and authentic. Then there's something at stake like that you're protecting and that you want more of. So it empowers you to say your yes or to say you're no, or to ask for what you need and want, and to continue to honor and elevate yourself versus. When we're disembodied and disconnected and our awareness is external, like you've said, then it's kinda I don't really matter. My feelings don't really matter. My trauma doesn't really matter. Like it's fine. We just cover it all up with the words. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So that I just think our sensations are the gateways, the divine door to, our authenticity. So Violet, there are different programs that you offer courses that you offer online and you work in different masterminds. You can go to Violet site, it's violet lang.com, and I'll have this in the show notes. It feels the focus has been on inviting Queens to really reclaim their queen hood through choosing themselves through embodiment practices, as well as practical tips and tools around dating and deepening one's intimacy, really with oneself in order to bring that to a partnership. Are there things on the horizon that you wanna share with our audience? Something to look for. Yes, I would love to. So I'm doing sacred sexuality programs where I'm teaching women how to get in touch with their physical anatomy and do healing with their physical anatomy, but also how to move sexual energy through their different chakras, through the seven chakras and the links between the chakras and the anatomy. So like the anus and perineum related to the first chakra and womb space and the second chakra and cervix and heart. And I won't get into all of that, but it's really fun to help people who are very spiritual in quotations link all of that into specific places in their body and explore those places in their body without a partner. Although you can bring. Bring this information to your partner too. So I've done two cohorts of that. It's not on my website because I just offer it when I feel like the timing is right. It's not an ongoing thing. 'cause it's a very, it's a small group that's the same group every week. It's a very tight container. But you can email me if you're interested in the next cohort of that. It's violet@violetl.com. And then I'm also doing a new program in January called The Pleasure Priestess. And it's all about linking pleasure and spirituality. The difference between sacred sexuality and pleasure. Priestess is pleasure. Priestess is a little bit more about these archetypes. So finding our own dominatrix, our inner dominatrix, finding our own trickster energy, finding our own queen of pleasure pleasure goddess. Finding our own sacred slut. Reclaiming that word, what does that mean for us? So it's a little bit more, I'll call it like witchy and and still very embodied. Everything I do is embodied, but it's a bit more playful, I should say. It's a bit more art, artistic. Oh, I love it. I love this expansion, violet, because I feel like it's, yeah, I think you're perfectly suited as a guide and mentor and facilitator to lead women into all of these aspects, all of these juicy aspects of reclaiming the really fascinating facets of our sexuality and our sexual embodiment. Thank you so much for for who you are for sharing your light on the planet and yeah, for being here with us today. Thank you, Rahi. It's been my pleasure, and thank you for doing what you do in the world. It's been such an important part of my life and my journey, and I'm just grateful knowing that you're helping so many people. How is today's episode landing with you and your body? Let's recognize the safe space you're in now via your senses. Perhaps tracking and naming the colors or items in your surroundings, perhaps touching the sides of your body with opposite hands. To feel yourself grounded and your body's senses present in the now. Perhaps your body would like to drink some warm liquid walk around your home. Or in nature, recognizing what makes you feel safe and present. And if there are strong emotions or uncomfortable feelings arising in you, and you're open to receiving support, who can you call or visit with? Who can hold a safe space to witness what you're experiencing now? Are there any parts of your body that may want to invite your own hands for support, attention and nourishment? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun") #### Devi Ward Erickson Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") #### Dr. Liam Snowdon Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg) #### Dr. Betty Martin The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast, Podcasts on Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexual Healing, Podcasts on Somatic Sexual Healing **Tags:** embodied sexuality, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Pleasure, Sexual Trauma, sexual trauma recovery, shame and sexuality, somatic sexuality, Violet Lange --- ### [Tantra, Trauma & Pleasure: Healing Through the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/tantra-trauma-pleasure-healing/) **Published:** April 22, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can the Tibetan Five Elements meditation and practices, passed down through a 1200 year lineage, metabolize emotional and physical obstacles for embodied sexual transcendence? Devi Ward Erickson shares how these ancient practices transformed her own life, the principles of how the meditation transmutes and transforms our body and consciousness, and how her Institute for Authentic Tantra Education trains and teaches practitioners and students making these sacred teachings available to Western audiences. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Tantra, Trauma & Pleasure: Healing Through the Body # ### ### **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore how tantra intersects with trauma healing and why presence, awareness, and nervous system safety are essential for true pleasure and intimacy with Devi Ward Erickson. You’ll learn how to work with the body rather than bypass it. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun") [DeviWardTantra.com](https://deviwardtantra.com/) [AuthenticTantra.com](https://www.authentictantra.com/) [YouTube.com: SexIsMedicine](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYw_62QD971np0Ujhg3CzpQ "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYw_62QD971np0Ujhg3CzpQ") [IG:AuthenticTantra](https://www.instagram.com/authentictantra/) [FB: AuthenticTantra](https://www.facebook.com/AuthenticTantra) *Today’s Guest:* Devi Ward Erickson is the Founder of the Institute of Authentic Tantra Education, the first and only government accredited professional training institute using the Tibetan Five Element Tantric practices for holistic sexual healing. Devi is an ACS Certified Sexologist, Certified Tantric Healer, Certified Reiki Practitioner, Certified Meditation Instructor, and has been teaching meditation and personal growth workshops for over 20 years. Devi is an author and the Host of Sex is Medicine with Devi Ward Podcast on Itunes and tunein.com. She has been featured as a Tantric Healing Expert in countless articles and over 30 different radio and television networks world-wide including Playboy Radio, Men’s Health Magazine, CBS, NBC and Rogers TV and the movie Sexology with Gabrielle Anwar and Catherine Oxenberg. ## What You’ll Learn About Tantra, Trauma & Conscious Sexuality $ “It’s indescribable the ecstasy that I was able to experience through my first yoni massage healing session… it was this very tangible experience of having emotional and physical obstacles arise in my body and in my awareness and …relaxing and breathing … moving through that pain… to come into my body and those obstacles purifying, releasing, moving out of the way… and on the other side of them was transcendence… indescribable sexual ecstasy…” $ How at 23, Devi took vows as a Monk of the Ishaya tradition to escape the effects of PTSD from childhood trauma, and how 10 years later, it was the Tibetan Five Element tantra practices which harnessed her sexual energies for the transmutation of her past traumas into embodied erotic transcendence. $ How the ecstatic bliss of sexual pleasure can serve as a counter-balance for the nervous system to titrate its integration of past traumas, and incentivizes us to stay fully in the body for its deepest integration. $ How the Tibetan Five Element Tantric teachings are taught and supported by a 1200-year lineage of oral tradition, and how current-day students are supported by this lineage to heal on the cellular, physical, energetic, and spiritual levels harnessing their core essence. $ How each of the Tibetan Five Elements correlates to one of the major energy chakras of the body and how activating them via meditation dissolves each of the root poisons, purifying the physical body. $ How each element also has a power or activity and as each root poison is purified and the multitude of our ego’s attachments dissolve, our capacity to manifest and attract enhances. $ How Sacred Erotic Dance became a core healing practice of the Institute combining Devi’s love for and background as a dancer with conscious breath, embodied awareness, and the Tibetan Five Elements meditation. $ How the 4 pillars of the Institute – meditation, movement, pleasure and connection lay a foundation for the teachings, and how non-violent communication is the practice through which human compassion and connection deepens. $ How our society’s socio-economic, cultural-racial hierarchy/environment affects each of our somatic embodiment and interactions with each other, as well as the self-intimacy we experience with our own body. ## ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps on** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How rewilding eros and erotic belonging transforms consciousness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-belonging-community/) [How the Body Electric holds space for erotic embodiment ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/body-electric-erotic-embodiment/) [How Joseph Kramer’s lucid erotic states lead to the creation of sexological bodywork](https://rahichun.com/podcast/joseph-kramer-sexological-bodywork/) [How tantra, yoni massage, and genital mapping can play vital roles in sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pace-of-trust-healing-trauma/) ## ## **Go Deeper Into This Work** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. Today we invite Devy Ward Erickson to the podcast. I've always been a fan of Devy and how the Institute for Authentic Contra education, blessed by her lineage of teachers and llamas, is bringing ancient Tibetan tantric meditation. Practices and healing to a Western audience for embodied sexual wholeness. I also appreciate her perspectives and understanding of the subtle and nuanced ways in which race and the microaggressions of our sociocultural and racial environment affects and is affected by our individual and collective embodied sexuality. Today I am really thrilled and happy and just tickled to be introducing our guest today, Devi Ward Erickson, who is the founder of the Institute of Authentic Tantra Education which is just fascinating. It combines ancient wisdom. Of the Tibetan five element teachings and meditations, a lineage that's been passed down orally over 1200 years. And she combines it with modern day somatic healing modalities to resolve trauma from the nervous system for healthy and vibrant sexual embodiment. Debbie, I'm so glad that you're here with us today. Thank you. Oh, I'm so delighted to be invited. Thank you so much. You're so welcome. So welcome. So Debbie, I thought a great jumping off point would be asking you if you could share the role pleasure played in your healing journey and the role that the Tibetan five element teachings and meditations played in your sexual reclamation and embodiment. Yeah, both of those things are very woven together. So I will say that pleasure was the missing piece in my healing journey and when it finally kicked into place or locked into place, that's. My entire universe changed. That's when healing, deep Healing actually occurred. So before I encountered the five element teachings, which were my pathway of healing through pleasure I had been a stripper in Detroit. And I had been a monk of the iShare order after that for almost a decade. And I committed my life when I was 23. I took vows and became a monk of the Asiah tradition and committed my life to spiritual realization. And in all honesty, I did that as a way of escaping the pain of living in a body that was full of trauma. This was all. Over 20 years ago, 25 years ago, and the landscape of somatic healing and, being trauma-informed, it did not look anything like it does now. Like all of this trauma-informed knowledge is, I would say, recent in the last decade or so, right? It's really starting to gain more vis visibility. So 25 years ago, we didn't have the language for that. I didn't understand that I was, that a lot of my symptoms. Like suicide dysfunction, depression. I didn't understand that those were symptoms of post-traumatic stress. Because of my early childhood trauma, I had no idea. I just thought it was broken. And and I wanted to find a way to alleviate. My pain. And so a a turning point for me was when I was around 20 years old, I sat down with a razor blade and a bottle of wine. And was very committed to killing myself. And I've got the scars on my wrist to. It. Sat down and started hacking away and I, at the very last moment when I was going to make the last cuts that I knew would end my life I couldn't do it. And so that was a moment of reckoning for me because up until that point I had been very suicide was always a backdoor for me. It was always like if this doesn't work out or it gets too bad, then I'll just kill myself. And so that was a reality for me up until the point where I was actually really going to kill myself and realize that was no longer an option. Living in pain, the kind of excruciating, unending, agonizing emotional pain. That I was in was also not an option. And so I committed my life to finding a way to, to heal, to release myself from suffering, to find joy. Ultimately, that was my goals. I just wanted not feel like I wanna die every day. And so I was very determined and set out on investigating and exploring and studying many different therapies. I studied herbalism, I studied reiki, I studied crystal healing. I studied. Organic gardening. Anything I could think of. And that's what eventually led me to becoming a monk in this spiritual tradition. And the meditation practice that we did was called Ascension. And it was very useful for me at that point in my life because it very was about disembodiment. It was a disembodiment practice. It was about ascending. From the physical form and ignoring the body. The body was like an anchor. The body was, this earthly thing and all, there was a huge investment in this disembodied, altered, ecstatic kind of state of being. And that I say, I think of it as having saved my life for the next 10 years because instead of being a drug addict, to avoid the pain or doing more harmful behavior to try to ease the pain, I. Committed to a spiritual path. I invested in a spiritual path and and so I got to bypass a lot of this, which still saw, but I wasn't connected with it as fully. So when I encountered the five element teachings they were presented to me as a, as lineage based methods for harnessing sexual energy and using it. For the transformation of consciousness and the realization of enlightenment. And at that point in my life, I was all about enlightenment because enlightenment meant the end of suffering. And I also thought it meant getting out of my body. And I was in for a rude awakening because the journey with the five elements and healing through pleasure was about embodiment. And that was the thing I'd been trying to avoid every day diligently for the last decade. And perhaps before that. So it was the bliss of the sexual pleasure that I was being introduced to, that fortified my ability to move through the depths of pain that I needed to move through in order to fully inhabit my body again. And for me the sexual aspect was the one thing that I had never tried. I had tried all these oth other modalities. I had tried crystals and ascending and raw foods. I was a raw foodist for years, I thought cooked food was poison. Like I did, I put all kinds of things on my butt for cleansing and drank charcoal and all the stuff that you do didn't eat for months or days or weeks or whatever. And I tried all of that. And none of it addressed directly. The wound. None of it, it was like a, a palliative, but it never alleviated the pain entirely. And the one thing that I had never tried was sexual pleasure. I didn't even know it was a possibility. I was extremely ignorant coming into the world of sexual healing and tantra. I didn't know what a g-spot was. It just I was afraid of looking at my vulva. I was mortified at the thought of, just saying, yes, that feels good to a partner in bed. I had all of the. Social occlusions that we have in the society in regards to talking openly around sex or even knowing our sexual anatomy. None of that was in place for me. Being introduced to Tantra as a way of integrating my sexuality into my spiritual path was appealing because I hadn't tried it before. I didn't even know it was possible, and the experience of. It was it's indescribable the ecstasy that I was able to experience through my first yoni, yoni massage healing session five hours long. And it was this very tangible experience of having emotional and physical obstacles arise in my body and in my awareness and having my mentor. Coach me and guide me through relaxing and breathing and making eye contact. And I was totally freaking out and coming into my body, moving through that pain to come into my body and those obstacles, purifying, releasing, moving out of the way. And on the other side of them was transcendence. On the other side of them was an explosion of white light and just again, indescribable sexual ecstasy. And the ecstasy. Outweighed the suffering. And that's what kept me going. And that's why I think, for me, and I think for people that are, have a lot of trauma in the body, why the pleasure is such a necessary counterbalance. Because we are as human beings, so motivated to move towards pleasure, that's what we're wired for. If it feels good, it's good. If it tastes good, it's good. It's like we're designed for pleasure to be our guide. And yet for those of us who are traumatized, pleasure is so absent. It's so absent is a lived reality. It's like miserly in how it shows up. You get peanuts of pleasure but not bliss. And so to have an experience of ecstatic bliss in my body, that like literally erased everything else from my consciousness that was. I potent enough for me to be willing to examine and move through whatever was and get rid of. Quite frankly, what, whatever was in the way of me experiencing more of that pleasurable sensation. Does that make sense? Is that clear? That makes total sense and I think it's really profound and important. What I mean just to underscore, it's like when we are traumatized as young people, it's painful to be in the body and we don't wanna be in the body. And it's really fascinating and I ironic that you went into Mon Could. Because the draw was that you wouldn't have to be in your body. And yet during that manhood experience, you came upon these tantric practices that put you right into your body, but did it in a way where you were embodying pleasure and burning through. The cellular memory of those stagnant emotions and the pain. And yes, the pleasure is a phenomenal counterbalance. And, for those, for the embodied folks who are still carrying a lot of trauma, it is an anchor and a incentive to be, to stay in the body in order to burn through that stuff. Yes, because it, it is transcendent and feels so good. You're making total sense, Debbie. Yeah. And I also think pleasure. It's like lubricant in a way. Like not necessarily sex loop, but like WD 40 kinda loop, right? Yeah. So the trauma is like this clunky, blocky, constricted, hard armored energy. And pleasure is like this warm golden, yes. Melting fluids. So it it's like dissolves all those hard spots and just devours them in a way. Totally. That's a great way of saying it. And I think, what we've learned now about somatic healing and resolving trauma from the body is we need to move at a pace that feels safe for the body and having that counterbalance of the pleasure. Allows for the nervous system to integrate and breathe and be okay and feel good so then it can go back and burn some more of that, pain and anguish and then come back to the pleasure. Yeah, I think it's a really wise and. It's fascinating to me that your journey unfolded in this way, during your manka to come across these Tibetan practices that invited you back into your body and incentivized you to explore what really that could be in your pleasure. Yeah. And I think that, the experience that I had as a monk was really fruitful in that it helped me develop cultivate, meditative focus and discipline. I was extremely diligent to my practice, and so I would regularly meditate four hours a day. That was nothing for me. I would meditate in the morning. I would meditate in the evening. It was just, it was normal. It was a normal part of my day. And on weekends I would very often meditate all weekend. So that was the. Focus, that level of discipline was the primary focus in my life. And I really think that it it really cleared the ground. It helped harmonize my brain and make it like if I'd encountered the Tibetan teachings before. This, there's no way I could have focused because the Tibetan teachings require so much more presence and so much more focus than this other meditation practice that I'd been doing. But the other practice allowed me to just allowed my brain to rest. Yes. And I think it allowed my brain to potentially heal a bit. Yeah. From all of that dysfunction, that trauma-based dysfunction. So that when I did encounter these five element teachings and then the more advanced. Riana teachings I had the ability to actually utilize them and work with them as opposed to, just not having the attention span or the focus. Yeah. And, and my training took my RA training. It was, it took discipline and focus. I was training five hours a day, four days a week in. Sexual and non-sexual tantra. So that's 20 hours a week of focused, riana, tantra, including sexuality. And so it was very intensive. It was an intense period of focus for six months, one-on-one with my mentor, and then receiving the non-sexual teachings from my lama. And we did all of this under the umbrella of the llama's support. He had given the sexual teachings to my mentor, and my mentor formally invited me to train with him. And he. Formed LA a Lai that he was going to be training me in these methods and got his approval. So it was very, it was very formal in the traditional sense. And so Lai was aware of what was happening with me in my sexual practices and could help my mentor tweak and direct them so that I wasn't overwhelmed by by what I was experiencing. Wow. That sounds, yeah. Really intentional and the structures and the focus really served your practice and your healing. Yeah. It does sound like the years of meditation really did still your mind and prepared you for the. Intense kind of concentration that's needed to be present and to explore sensations. So I wanna touch upon, and I think in a lot of Eastern practices, there is that teacher to student, transmission, if you will. Exactly. Because it's very important when we're working with energy practices that it be used correctly. And so it's like you have the whole. 1200 year lineage supporting you and supporting this practice to whoever, whatever students it's being, disseminated towards. This is what makes, I think your institute really unique. In addition to being the only government accredited, tantra Institute, I think in the world, the fact that it's really carrying on this sacred oral tradition and practice in a way that's supported by this lineage. Yeah. Yeah. And we teach with the blessing and the permission of our lawmen. He's very excited about what we're doing when he, when we talk to him. 'cause he sees the healing potential. Like these are ancient methods that literally heal on the cellular level. They heal on the physical level, they heal on the energy body level. They hear the mind. Heal the heart. They reconnect us with our spiritual essence. And so the fact that they're able to be proliferated widely in the West in a way that's very accessible to people who may not otherwise be attracted to them. A lot of the people that we work with aren't necessarily attracted to Tibetan Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism's, very complex. But they are very attracted to healing. And they are very attracted to connection with their environment, with their elemental environment. We as human beings, as a society, need to know how to work with our sexuality, engage with our sexuality from a standpoint of love and compassion and healing and transformation. That is what our sexual energy is for. It is transformative energy and for us to not know how to work with that. Constructively and skillfully is, it's a sacrilege in my opinion. It's misconduct to not allow us access to these teachings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so in regards to the teachings devy, the Tibetan five element meditation, if you can describe that a little bit, because it seems like it is a conscious generating and conscious channeling of sexual energy in order to open up and clear obstacles from our energy chakras, our energy centers. Yeah. So first we have to learn the non-sexual application of the five element meditations, right? So that's the way we teach and that's how I learned too, is first, before you can do run all this fun energy sexually, you have to be able to do it non-sexual. You have to be able to, 'cause it's visualizing and chanting and there's all this stuff going on. And before you can add sexual fuel to that. You have to be able to do it non sexually in a non triggering environment, so to speak, or a non, not a less dynamic environment. Yes. And so we learn how to do them as a sitting meditation first, and each element corresponds with one of the major energy centers of the body. So in this tradition, the Tibetan tradition, we work with five major chakras. There are seven, so the chakra on the crown and the chakra at the root are considered caps. And the root chakra is red, and that's said to contain the feminine essence of the body. And the crown chakra is white, and that's said to contain the masculine essence of the body, and they're viewed as caps to keep the energy in the body. So there's other traditions that like to shoot energy out the crown of the head. Or, disperse energy. We don't wanna disperse anything. We want to keep it in the body. We wanna use it. For transmutation and transformation. And then we wanna u take that energy and we wanna bring it out into the world to benefit others, to build the first government accredited school for tantra. To build, institutions we wanna cultivate and we wanna use it. So those are the caps. And then in our pelvis we have our. Fire element chakra. So fire is the sexual fuel, right? If we think of sexual energy, it's burning. It's hot, it's fiery, it's dynamic. It's luminous, right? So there's fire in the pelvis. There's earth at the navel for grounding, for stability. Space element is in the heart. And space element is considered the mind, the true mind, the universal mind. And I love that it's in the heart because space is universal and infinite, and so is our capacity for love. And love is the ground of all tantra. If there is no love, there is no tantra. So everything about in this tradition, the tantric tradition, and I'm studying Tibetan medicine right now, even, practicing medicine must be rooted in love. And then we have air in the throat and we have water in the center of the skull. And so each of the elements is an antidote to one of the root poisons of human emotion. So the five root poisons or anger, attachment, pride. Jealousy and ignorance. And so working with the elements and enriching them and using these lineage based methods to charge them and activate them helps dissolve those root poisons in our stream of consciousness at the level of consciousness itself. And it also begins to dissolve the chemical reaction of those poisons in our physical body. So it purifies the poisons. Also, each of the elements has a power or an activity. So as that root poison is purified, it awakens or activates our ability to manifest, to magnetize, to enrich, to pacify, to heal, and to create. And then also each of the elements brings a wisdom with it. So as that elemental energy builds in the body and the energy body, the physical body, and the consciousness itself, it begins to open our awareness so that we're able to access different types of wisdom and knowledge. So for instance, fire element is the ant, which is our sex chakra, interestingly, is the antidote to attachment. It has the power of magnetizing and attracting. And the wisdom that it brings is discernment. So the way all of those pieces fit together for me is, one of the biggest sufferings in our society, in my opinion, is our sexuality, is the ignorance related to our sexuality? And as a result of, having. Dysfunctional fire element, shockers, there's a lot of attachment in the world, and attachment breeds all kinds of suffering. Attachment to money is why there's people starving in the United States right now. Attachment to our belief systems. Attachment to our tradition. So attachment causes all these different types of suffering, attachment to outcome. And as our sex chakra heals and purifies and becomes more balanced, our propensity to attach to things lessens. As our attachment dissolves, our ability to magnetize and attract. Auspicious things into our life, it becomes more enhanced. So we're able to draw to ourselves, resources, experiences, people, opportunity to support our growth and to support our experience of joy in the world. Yeah. So it is a very using the. The energy centers of the body and understanding what the elements are, what they magnetize, what emotions they're susceptible to, really allows for this dynamic release and healing through channeling our energy, burning through the obstacles or the stagnation in each of those energy centers. And in so doing, releasing the obstacles to, our emotional obstacles our pain body essentially. Exactly. And each of the elements also has a quality, like I think of it like a flavor or just like a bath. It's just kinda like the energy that you swim in. And so fire element, again, the quality of fire elements is bliss. So this is the connection for me is that, talk about, sexual tan and living in, in orgasmic. Life and blahdi blah. Again, when our sex chakra is healthy, balanced, and rich activated, just the way it was meant to be. Then we live, then our consciousness is infused with bliss. Not just sexual bliss, but bliss is a state of being. Bliss is a state of consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Debbie, can you help us understand take us through, so you went into Hood. The meditation prepared you for the Tibetan practices. Here you are prepared and going through a very regimented, intense, and also like supervised process that invited you back into your body and invited you to embody exquisite sexual pleasure to burn through all of these obstacles in the pain body. Like where did you go from there to birthing the institute and incorporating your life's journey of understanding healing modalities? Yeah. Yeah. When I first started my tan training with my mentor I had no idea what I was saying yes to. And if I had known, I probably would not have said yes to it because even though there was all this pleasure, there was also a significant amount of pain Sure. That I was unprepared for. Again, I didn't know anything about trauma. So when I started hitting into those, those trauma blocks and those wounds, I was. I was overwhelmed at first because I didn't understand what was happening. But again, the result was worth it. So not just the sexual bliss, but also my ability to feel for the first time to actually feel my body for what seemed like the first time in my life. Yeah. And when I would com stand in front of another person and talk with them for the first time in my life, I could actually feel them. Like energetically, I could feel another human being instead of floating above the top of my head and looking down. So I committed to this six months and it was like I had finally found my purpose in life. It, I honestly, I'm not exaggerating, like the heavens parted, the clouds parted the heavens opened up. Yeah. Mana fell from heaven. It was like. Oh my God. This is all the experiences of my life up to this point. The being a stripper, the, like all, everything started to make sense and fit into place with the integration of the sexual healing that I was experiencing. And my mentor had had the desire tos. Start a school for Tantra on the island of Kauai. And so as we were going through this training, he was, I was a very good student, so it's like, Hey, you might wanna be part of this school. And again, I was like, wow. Yes. Having a school for Tantra where we're teaching. These ancient lineage based sexual and non-sexual healing methods that have never been taught this way ever in the West. Like it was, this pioneering thing. And so that was the intention. So after my training or through my training, I'll say it arose to participate in the. Development of this school. That didn't happen the way we thought it would. And so we moved to Vancouver Canada. And and began teaching establishing our business there, and began teaching Tibetan five element tantric workshops. I see. But to answer your question about weaving in all these other things. For me it was born out of my curiosity to understand what was happening to me, but I was relentless about just finding out like, okay, so why, how can I have all these orgasmic experiences and what's happening in my body? This, like, when I come up to these things and, and I go through with the move through a block and then I feel. Healed afterwards. What is that healing? I wanted to understand the mechanism of it. And so I dove into learning about somatics. Learning about how the body heals itself. And I was also a dancer. And so movements has been my jam my whole life. I developed a technique where I worked with the five element practices and movement and breath to open the body and to release in a way that was, again, less intense and dynamic than sexual, than the sexual experience. And I began to teach that on the island. So I developed a modality called Sacred Erotic Dance. Nice. And then I wove the five element teachings very naturally on, onto it. And, checked in with my llama to make sure it was all correct. And he is yeah go girl. And then I began to work with people using this movement and using, combined with the five elements and breath and awareness, and I had phenomenal results. I had people, I worked with, women who had, experienced severe sexual trauma, had been in therapy. This one woman had been in therapy for 16 years. Had very little growth, and she worked with me for three months and transformed her life. And her therapist actually came up to me at an event and said, I have no idea what you're doing, but please keep doing it. I've seen more growth. This woman in the three months that you've been doing this movement work with her that I've seen in the last 16 years doing talk therapy. So that really cinched it for me is that like we can talk all day long about our healing and our trauma, but when we get into the body has its own wisdom and its own intelligence. And this is also taught in tantric Buddhism that the body is Buddha, all wisdom, knowledge, and power is contained in the human form. So I kept getting the, these directions to come back home to the body. And that had been my experience with the sexual healing and coming back home, landing in my body. Yes. So I just studied. I learned. I wanted to know what was happening and how it was happening. And so I accessed the resources that I could, like I said, I read lots about Somatic Healing. I listened to Peter Levine, listened to the experts that were available at the time continued working with the five element teachings. And then I also had, oh, and then I will say beyond the five element teachings, I took refuge in the Shenk Baca lineage. Lama Tahi is my root llama, and I dedicated my life and my path to Riana Buddhism. And so I, aside from the five elements, I began working with some of the more advanced riana non-sexual teachings, and then eventually received permission to weave those into my sexual practice as well. So it was just, again, my curiosity about my own healing process Yes. Wanting to understand why it was happening. Yeah. And then once I knew what was happening for me I'm like everybody needs to know this. Sure, sure. Absolutely. And because my healing is so profound, going from suicidal, depressed, completely dysfunctional loss to yes. A bright shining light in the world. It's it, everybody else needs to know how to do this. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So that makes so much sense. Devy, like your curiosity of your own just incredible transformation led you to dig deep and find answers as to how you transformed and, I love that. I love that you've interwoven the five elements with movement because it is such a gentle and fun expression of embodiment whilst, engaging in this safer. Habitation of our bodies. Yeah. So this brings me to a question because I saw, the four pillars of the Authentic Contra Institute meditation movement, which you've mentioned, and then connection and pleasure. Now we understand how meditation and movement became two of these pillars. Pleasure is a natural. Kind of result of connecting inwardly getting into our sensorial pleasures. Can you share how the connection of the four pillars interweave with the other three and how vital each one is to the other? They all seem to compliment each other. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so the connection pillar, you are, everything is born out of connection, right? Connection to ourselves, connection to source, connection to each other. Connection is the medicine that heals ultimately when we're talking about healing trauma, it's connection. Is the antidote to trauma. And for me at the same time my, my time in Kauai I really think of it as as my grad school. So not a formal, not, obviously not formal, but I was studying diligently along with the Buddhism, along with teaching movement. I was also training in nonviolent communic. Oh, cool. So I trained from 2005 until I left the island in 2010. Under my mentor, Issa Maria, who is a one of the most incredible nonviolent communication facilitators I've. Ever seen, and I've, went to New Mexico and studied with Marshall rosenberg for a retreat as well, and Issa was, is at par with him. And so for the connection piece for me was really rooted in the nonviolent communication aspect because, again, nonviolent communication for me was the, was how we practice compassion. It's the actual technique and the method for how to be compassionate with ourselves, and compassionate with. The rest of humanity, understanding that all of our emotions and feelings are indicative of a deeper, underlying need, and that need is the connection or the, or the is. When we connect with the need, we connect with our humanity. So the more fully I can connect with my need, the more effectively I can function as a human being. That's where it started for me. And the way I communicate with myself is also the way I communicate with other people. So Issa Maria has a very unique approach to NVC, which is or she did at the time I was studying with her, which is really that, NVC is very often taught, or nonviolent communication is often taught as a way to communicate with other people. But she's let's look at how you communicate with yourself. Let's address that, and the only thing that's really ever going on in any moment is, what am I feeling? What am I needing? That's the only thing that's ever happening. No matter what other drama is happening, what am I feeling and what am I needing? So that is like anchoring back into the body and connecting fully with ourselves. And then from there we connect. Externally. Sure. And so I, we have a variety of techniques that we use to enhance connection. So like I said, nonviolent communication is one of them. Connecting with a partner through tantric speech and words of appreciation and tantric union breathing, connecting with the elements through the elemental meditation or just our sensual awareness. So connection is really the core of the foundation and all of the pleasure and the movement and the meditation are all ways of enhancing and deepening our connection to ourselves, connection to our universe, connection to our environment. Yeah. One of my supervisors for neuro Effecti Touch, she often speaks about how in the same way that trees and plants gravitate towards the sun for sunlight. The nature of human beings is to gravitate towards connection. Connection and aliveness. Yeah. And both of the words, the connection and aliveness are the pillars of what your institute offers. And I love how you spoke about, ultimately it is connecting that intimate, developing that intimate connection within ourselves which the meditation. Nurtures, which the movement nurtures within our own body, the pleasure within our own body. It really starts from there, and then from there it's like you can connect and experience pleasure with anything. Exactly, yes. Spontaneously arising joy, right? And our emphasis in the pleasure practices is very much about cultivating our solo pleasure. So this includes sexual pleasure. So we talk about, I talk about the four forms of pleasure. In my book I talk about physical slash sensual pleasure. So anything having to do with the physical body like movement and the five senses. Emotional pleasure. Those things that fill our heart, expand our heart, open our heart, spiritual pleasure. Those experiences that help us feel connected to a greater sense of self, whatever that is for you. And then sexual pleasure. And sexual pleasure is its own unique. I delineate it as its own unique form of pleasure. A, because it often gets pushed to the side and B, because it is so dynamic, because, I can have all kinds of other sensual pleasure going on in my life. Baths and massages and all of that. And when I add sexual pleasure, it's like adding magic. Like it's, there's something unique that can, that's and irreplaceable about our sexual pleasure. And so in the work that we do, we really emphasize people connecting with their own bodies and their own pleasure, whether it's sexual, emotional, spiritual, or essential, and cultivating that as a practice. Cultivating pleasure consciousness. And which is a reframe because we live in a paradigm of pain that emphasizes and glorifies pain. So it's like a revolution of consciousness to orient our awareness, to seek out and find pleasure, and to emphasize pleasure to prioritize. Pleasure. And so we do that within ourselves and then we invite a partner into that with us. So instead of, the old many, the conventional thing is I'm gonna get a, I'm gonna have a partner and then I'm gonna be happy, or I'm gonna get a partner. We're gonna study tan together for us. And for me it was, no, I'm gonna root in my own tantra practice 'cause I've been single as a Tanika and I deepen my own personal practice. And then I invite my suitors. Or my consorts into my tan yoga practice. And then we practice together. It's so reflective of your own healing journey of how pleasure was medicine in your life. So it makes so much sense that the foundation of the institute would reflect that as well, and that is how we ultimately heal. It's an inside job. It's, it is. And yeah. And it has to Pleasure is lube. Yes. Yes. Pleasure is lube. Yes. The other thing that I wanted to highlight about what I find unique about your institute, and it's reflected everywhere in your podcast, sexist Medicine with Debbie Ward podcast and YouTube channel, which is fabulous, is the understanding of the sociocultural conditioning. In our society and within our bodies, and the role that plays in keeping us disconnected from our own body's pleasure and as a result from each other. Like when I was going through different tantra trainings in schools, there was never a understanding of how integral that is in the way it impacts our collective sexual embodiment and our, intimate sexual relations. And so I really appreciate how. The lens through which you are educating about our sexuality is through this lens of how we're conditioned through society and our social culture. Yeah. And again, that, that arose out of my own healing. So I, I think that I will say that a lot of, the tantra in the west, the neo tantra has been predominantly, it's been dominated by white, the white society. And so I haven't had the privilege of ignoring. The socio dynamics because I'm a biracial black woman. And I was born in 1974, which was only fi like my parents got married, legally, got married the year that they wouldn't go to jail for it. Which was 1969. Like it's phenomenal to me that my parents would've gone to jail for getting married one year. Year earlier. Yeah. In that sense and I was illegal. It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing. So I have not had the privilege of ignoring that. Yeah. I've been told from the time I was a child that I did not belong here, that I that I was an abomination. Like no joke from the time I was a child, I was told that I was an abomination by our society. So I haven't had the privilege of ignoring the impact that had, that has had on my humanity, my sense of self and my sexuality. So I think that's part of why there's the gap is because of the social factors be such as privilege. Such as, white supremacy. If you don't have to deal with a pain ever in your life, you have the privilege of remaining ignorant of it. I did not have that privilege. So that was one of. First traumas that I hid into was all of the racism and all of the racial self-hatred that had been conditioned into me and was stored in my vagina and affecting my sexuality and affecting my sexual choices. Also, because I was so ignorant around my own sexual potential, I was mad. I was I looked at society, I'm like, how did I go 33 years of my life and nobody told me where my G-spot was, and I got to see really cool. Clearly how the way we are conditioned in the society. Or I'll say we were, I'm a Gen Xer and I, things are changing with other generations, but I'll say with my gen, my generation, the way we were very conditioned of, what it is to be a good girl. What does it look like to be a good girl? Don't speak up. Don't say what you like in bed. Don't pretend you don't like sex. Acquiesce gi put up a fight. Like all these messages that we are given in society about how we need to perform sexually in order to receive acceptance and love and connection. And because, as you said, we're so motivated by connection will turn ourselves into pretzels. We'll tie ourselves into knots to get that nourishment of connection. However we can. And so the em, all, everything that we emphasize in our school is because that's all shit that I had to deal with. Yeah. Especially again, it's not, it's, I wasn't like, it's oh, we need to look at this. It was like, this is, these are the wounds and I know that I'm not the only one who carries them. Absolutely not. And what you're speaking to about the ways in which we tie ourselves up as pretzels to feel accepted. To Field connection is different based on our culture, our race, our socioeconomic class, all of that. There's a, a kind of a power hierarchy that reflects safety. A sense of belonging in our society that, that isn't really talked about in sexuality, but it exists there and it's profound in the way we feel ourselves and we engage with each other sexually. Yes. Yeah. For me, again, my experiences so I, my mom was white and my dad's black. And they divorced. And so I lived with my white mom in the white suburbs and I was very often the only black person. Certainly the only biracial person in any of my schools or neighborhoods. Wow. And so as a teenager, I had very clear experiences of, white boys wanting some, having jungle fever, right? They did. They wanted to have sex with me, but they didn't wanna date me. So that informs my sense of worth and value as a woman, as a sexual being. It's okay, so the white boys wanna fuck me, but they don't wanna date me. Or, having a crush on a guy, and it was a very mutual, cute little white boy that very mutual, and his sister told them that he was dating. Me and his parents threatened to kick him outta the house. If he didn't break up with me. Because it was black. Yeah. So these are, of course that's gonna impact my Of course. Of course. That's gonna in Yeah. And of course that's gonna influence my sexuality. Absolutely. That is a trauma. It is a trauma. Yeah. And it's all these microaggressions that. Add up and that gets, affects our sense of safety or our sense of hypervigilance when we are engaging sexually or interacting even socially. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That could be, that's such a big topic. I hate to just touch on it, but I do wanna ask you before we wrap up, here you've created this incredible institute. It's training people. It's been really successful. Where does it feel like it wants to go next? Yeah, that's a great question. Expanding our team. And we all have different roles that we play. And so my husband, for instance, is was a professor at University of British Columbia and he ended up leaving Vancouver UBC and moved here to Kelowna. And he is now the senior educational administrator for the school. So actually have an actual dean with a PhD and all that. Great. And he's actually working to get our next level of accreditation from the government. Which is called, officially called designation. Which would allow our students to apply for student aid. So that the school, that the government would pay for people to become authentic RA practitioners, that is how great is that? Yeah, it's government accredited. Yeah. But then we also do have some students graduates and potential students and graduates in the United States who are very excited about what we're doing, who want to start moving it. To institutions. So we have one woman who is a student at Widener University Yeah. Who is doing her practicum with the institute this year. Oh. And she wants to be she actually wants, she's a veteran and so she wants to work on getting VA loans to pay for the certification training. So what I see actually is the institute penetrating more institutions. With the help of people that are excited about the vision and want to contribute and then expanding our core team. So in 2021, we are bringing on more of our graduates to act as instructors for our training programs. Great. So we have, I just. We have incredible graduates. They're so well trained. And they're so amazing, such incredible healers. So I see this expansion and this infiltration, this penetration of the institutions to make these teachings even more accessible. I want, ideally I'd like to, I'd like to, I say mainstream it, but not mainstream it in the way, like it loses its essence. You don't wanna water it down. It's I don't wanna water it down, but may No. Yeah. To make it more available and make it more available. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that sounds great. I'll have the link to your certainly the website and the the podcast and the YouTube channel in the show notes. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, this is very exciting. And I must say, like you're, I love your podcast. It's just so real and it, I love how you highlight your very, talented graduates as well. And you speak about issues that I don't see really being discussed elsewhere. And it's just. I think a phenomenal service and just a great resource for everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much. Rahi, that means so much. Absolutely. Devi, thank you so much for being who you are, for shining your light and for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor and a delight. Yes, a delight. How is this episode landing in your body? When bringing your awareness to your body's sensations, what do you notice and where in your body are you noticing them without judging what you're experiencing? Can you bring a self-compassion to any parts of your body that are calling for your attention? And if it feels right for you, how about bringing pleasure to the body? Parts that are seeking comfort, curiosity, and connection. What kinds and quality of touch feel good to these areas? How would it be to breathe into those sensations and exhaling through a juicy, reverberating, vocalized sound, giving voice to those sensations and feelings? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-erotic-pleasure/?et_fb=1&PageSpeed=off) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) #### [Dr. Liam Snowdon](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Conset & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** Devi Ward, Rahi Chun podcast, Sacred Sexuality, Sexual Healing, Tantra, Tibetan Five Element Practices, Tibetan Tantra --- ### [Vaginal Steaming, Hormones & Feminine Healing](https://rahichun.com/podcast/vaginal-steaming-hormones-healing/) **Published:** February 25, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How has the time-tested practice of Vaginal Steaming, known to efficiently and cost-effectively resolve issues - ranging from menstrual cramps and irregular periods, to cysts and fibroids, to fertility challenges, to a whole host of postpartum issues in dozens of countries around the world, been dismissed by the Western medical model? Keli Garza, founder of Steamy Chick and the Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute, shares her journey of leading what has become the premiere resource in data collection and research in the efficacy of Perineal Steaming, including results from the Fourth Trimester Postpartum Study. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled-1.jpg "Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # Vaginal Steaming, Hormones & Feminine Healing **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** ## In This Episode We explore vaginal steaming, hormone balance, and natural approaches to pelvic and reproductive health with Keli Garza, Founder of Steamy Chick. You’ll learn how traditional practices support healing, circulation, and connection to the body. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun") [](https://www.instagram.com/ellenheed/?hl=en)[SteamyChick.com](http://www.steamychick.com/) IG: @steamychick [Fourth Trimester Vaginal Steam Study](http://www.fourthtrimestervaginalsteamstudy.com/) [Pelvic Steam Testimonial Database](http://steamychick.com/testimonials) [Vaginal Steam Practitioner Directory](http://www.steamychick.com/directory) Zhaleh’s Site [ZhalehBoydPhillips.com](https://www.zhalehboydphillips.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Keli Garza has a Masters degree in International Development graduating cum laude. Garza is the owner of Steamy Chick – the largest distributor of vaginal steam supplies in the United States. To further vaginal steam education, Garza founded a branch of her company called the Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute to train practitioners in the use of vaginal steam for menstrual and reproductive health and to further research on the benefits reported by thousands of customers. Additional resources discussed in this episode: “Making Women’s Medicine Masculine: The Rise of Male Authority in Pre-Modern Gynaecology” by Monica H. Green and “Medical Bondage: Race, Gender, and the Origins of American Gynecology” by Deirdre Cooper Owens. And Korean studies on vaginal steaming include: \* Systematic Review of Fumigation Therapy for Atrophic Vaginitis: [Steaming-Therapy-for- Atrophic-Vaginitis-Article-2016](http://kpubs.org/article/articleMain.kpubs?articleANo=BOGHBE_2016_v29n1_92) \*Therapeutic Effect of KMST (Korean Medicine Steam Therapy) – Korean Medicine Combination Therapy about Leukorrhea Patients: [TherapeuticEffectofKMST/KoreanMedicineCombinationTherapyAbout-LeukorrheaPatients](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283244864_Study_on_Therapeutic_Effect_of_KMST_Korean_Medicine_Steam_Therapy_-Included_Korean_Medicine_Combination_Therapy_about_Leukorrhea_Patients) \* Effects of Artemisia A. Smoke on Menstrual Distress, Dysmenorrhea, and Prostglandin F2. [KoreaScienceArticle](https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200925265918517.page) ## What You’ll Learn About Vaginal Steaming, Hormones & Pelvic Health $ “Menstrual pain isn’t ‘normal.’ … Pain is not okay” $ How the quality of one’s menses as an indicator of their overall health. $ How brown menses is an indicator of a lack of circulation – despite gynecology texts claiming that “anything consistent is normal.” $ How articles against Vaginal Steaming lead to documentation and data collection culminating in the Pelvic Steam Testimonial Database. $ How modern Western gynecological procedures are based on White male doctors experimenting on Black enslaved women. $ How The Fourth Trimester Postpartum Study revealed significant differences in recovery between the steam and non-steam PP groups, and provided an opportunity to identify standards for what is healthy PP recovery. $ How Vaginal steaming as a somatic practice can restore and increase healthy pleasure sensations in the pelvis. $ How perineal steaming can be healthy and beneficial for penis-owners (“men”). ## Explore more on Erotic Embodiment. This conversation is part of a deeper body of work on [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening Pillar Index Page](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Related Eps. –** Erotic Embodiment & Sexual Awakening [How hormone balance and cyclical living supports sexual wholeness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/hormone-balance-jing-chinese-medicine/) [How pelvic pain and scar tissue can resolve and transform into pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pelvic-pain-scar-tissue-healing/) [How cervical healing influences your orgasmic potential ](https://rahichun.com/podcast/cervical-orgasm-sexual-healing/) [How pleasure is medicine and can transform your pelvic aliveness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/pleasure-as-medicine-pelvic-healing/) ## **Go Deeper Into This Work:** The body remembers how to heal, how to feel, and how to open again to pleasure. If you’re ready to actively reclaim your relationship to pleasure, sensation, and aliveness: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Experience](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) A guided pathway to reconnect with your body, restore sensitivity, and awaken your innate capacity for pleasure. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin. In this episode, we explore the various applications and wide range of benefits of the ancient time-tested practice of vaginal steaming with Kelly Garza, founder of Steamy Chick, we discussed the turning points, which propelled steamy chick and to becoming the premier resource for all things related to vaginal steaming. The roots of modern day western gynecological practices and its resistance towards longstanding effective practices like vaginal steaming and standards for healthy, holistic gynecological care that are still missing in the current medical model today. I'm really thrilled and happy to have invited Kelly Garza to the podcast. I've known Kelly for a couple of years now, been so impressed and just in awe of her journey of navigating the steamy chick. Revolution. So just to introduce her first Kelly is the founder and director of Steamy chick steamy chick.com, which has quickly become the most comprehensive resource for data collection prescription assessment advice on, most everything related to peri steaming and vaginal steaming, as well as being a leading supplier of steam saunas and herbal blends. So Kelly, great to have you here. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Rahi. I'm always happy to be involved with anything you're doing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I thought we could start Kelly, because a lot of our listeners are probably gonna be new to vaginal steaming, or may have heard of it, but not necessarily practiced it. And I thought it would be fun to ask you to share like, the different turning points in the evolution of Steamy Chick and your, even at your your role as the leader of Steamy Chick and how that's I feel like you are such a, you've almost become a spokesperson for this holistic. Healthy, safe self-care practice that's actually been around for centuries, but, a lot of modern day audiences don't really know that much about. So I'd love to know, like during your evolution from your very first steam to now, like what were the junctures that really propelled steamy chick in a new direction or in a deeper direction? Like essentially what blew your mind along the journey? Wow. Okay. So nobody's ever asked me that before. Oh, very cool. I love it. You do have, yeah, you do have my mind. Turning, on that one. If I go back to the beginning. I heard about vaginal steaming like everybody else. And I learned about it from Marcia Lopez who's a Mayan abdominal womb healer. And actually at first there was nothing. It was just like blank. Like it was like crickets. She said vaginal steaming. And it was just like crickets to be, why would I do that? I would never do that. That has nothing to do with me. And then my period was missing. And something, since you work with trauma, my period was missing because of a traumatic experience. It had been gone for three months or so, and what I realized now is that anytime I have experienced trauma in my life, my period has gone missing. That's actually one of my body's responses to trauma. But at that time I didn't know it and I was just like, oh, my period's gone. Who cares? Just going through whatever I was going through. And and so I actually. I realized that mentally I was struggling and emotionally I was struggling. I was having a hard time like moving forward. And it occurred to me that my hormones might be out of balance. And I realized of course that would make sense if my period is missing, that my hormones are outta balance. But because I was struggling so much for the first time in my life, I figured I guess I need my period to come back so that my hormones can balance out. And so I went to sleep with that question. How do I get my period to come back? That's how I asked myself, right? And I woke up and I had that, it was like vaginal steaming. I was like, I have to try that. And so I went to a Korean spa and I tried it. And my first experience with it, it was actually a little bit too hot and I wasn't in my comfort zone. And and so I did it. And so here's one of the interesting things about vaginal steaming is that you can do it. Not believing or not having any idea what it's gonna do. And it actually still has an effect. It physiologically, has an effect on the body. It creates circulation, it creates heat, which is ultimately going to affect the womb. And so a couple hours after that steam session my period started just like that. And so my period started and my just like that. And I, I felt a relief. I felt like I was able to return to my normal self after that. And so what happened at that point was that I saw that period looked healthier than any period I'd have had my entire life about 10 years earlier. I had asked my OB, GYN, they said, do you have any questions? I said I said, my period is brown. I was like, is it supposed to be brown? And they said, is it always brown? And I was like, yeah, it's like consistently always brown. And they said, okay, then that's normal. Just contact us if something's different. And I was like, okay then. This period after steaming was red, it was a fresh, red, healthy color, and it was just vastly different. And I could tell that it was healthier. So that was the moment. Yeah. I was like, this is better. Yeah. This is better than the consistently brown. It's better, it smelled better. It felt better. My, my body felt better. Yeah. And and so I decided at that point, I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue to do this. And when you ask about what propelled me forward or why, honestly, one of the reasons why was because I didn't have health insurance. Uhhuh. I figured I have to do things that keep my body healthy. And if this is gonna give me a health, what looks to me like a healthier period, then I should do it. Yeah. So it, there was a, honestly a financial consideration. Yeah. As to why I was gonna integrate this into my life. And, that's something that I'm really just starting to understand again now looking back, is how important the accessibility, is how even without much income, yes. It's accessible. It's something that anybody can do to improve their health or to ensure that they have, that their menstrual health is on track, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's it can, it's a preventative health practice in many cultures. You're sharing so many great points right now, Kelly, I wanna underscore that, a lot of people will assume that, brown, that their menses being brown or even darker is there's nothing wrong with that or missing a period here. And there's nothing wrong with that, or menstrual cramps is just part of the experience and all of these things there's a reason for all of these things and they can all be remedied through this holistic practice that's been around for centuries and centuries in so many cultures around the world. And you're Korean, right? Rahi, correct? Yes. Yeah. So Korea's fascinating because Korea is one of the places that has maintained vaginal steaming despite Yes. Despite the western ology. Yes. And in, in Korea, in fact, like steaming is more advanced than anywhere else as far as being able to research it and integrate it into like healthcare. But, but that was another like turning point. I, at the time, I couldn't say it at the time, I couldn't express it, but now I can. Brown is not normal. And now I couldn't say it because that's actually wrong. According to Western gynecology, that's that's wrong. According to doctors. According to doctors, anything that's consistent is okay. Even if it's brown, even if the cycles are really long, even if the cycles are really short, anything that's consistent is okay. I see. Yeah. And so I didn't understand like how significant it was to actually just. Own, own that to just, to basically disregard that Yes. And to decide, no, you know what, brown isn't Okay. Brown is a sign of old men. And it was through traditional Chinese medicine that I think that I was, I able to get that permission to speak more authoritatively about what is should, what is an a menstrual cycle imbalance versus what's a menstrual cycle? What a balanced, healthy menstrual cycle looks like. Excuse me. So I found, I used to go to Yoan University to their acupuncture clinic. And so I right next to the acupuncture clinic, ah, was the bookstore that, the acupuncturist, in training, the students would, buy their books for their classes. So I used to always sneak into the bookstore after my acupuncture appointment and just browse. And so I bought a book, called diagnosis in Chinese medicine. And it's not a book that I'm recommending people go out and purchase. It's really hard to read. Yeah. And in order to read it, I had to buy more books to be able to understand a lot of the terms. But what was really cool was that in that book, there's a a chart that shows that talks about the different menstrual cycle like color, the different colors of the menses. Yes. And what that imbalance shows, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I started to look at my menstrual cycle. As a monthly health checkup. Oh, okay. Do I have any brown in it because that's a sign of poor circulation, or was I able to get it all the way red, and then I started to look at what steaming practices and patterns created that healthy period, as well as what lifestyle factors created that healthy period. And then also the period care and how, what I was drinking and eating and how that was affecting my period. So I started to use my period as a monthly checkup, and I started to read it using this, book that was based on, knowledge that was thousands and thousands of years old. Thousands of, yeah, thousands of years old. I actually studied at Yoan for a little while and nice. So I know the bookstore. Yeah. I, it's like the memories are coming back of that bookstore, which is great. But, for listeners it's like the basic, like setup of vaginal steaming makes so much sense because it's using, steam is being used as the transporting mechanism to carry these healing herbal properties up the vaginal canal, up the cervix into the uterus to release any stagnation. It could be old stagnant blood, it could be lokey if it's postpartum, it could be, anything. But at the very fundamental basics that soothing steam will relax the pelvic floor muscles. That steam will increase blood flow, which will increase sensation, which will increase libido. It will downregulate the nervous system because the vagus nerve goes into the cervix. So at the very, like basic level, it's so good for so many reasons. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't really understand this like knee jerk reaction that it hasn't been. Okay. So in 2015 about four years after I started my journey with vaginal steaming a beautiful actress, Gwyneth Paltrow mentioned vaginal steaming on her right blog. She had gone to a Korean spa, Tik spa in Santa Monica. Santa Monica, yeah. And so she mentioned it on her blog and recommended it. And so there was this reaction that vaginal steaming can't be healthy. It can't have any effect on the hormones. It can't have any positive benefit. If anything, it's gonna be harmful and I just don't get it. For the same reason that you just explained, there's no way for it not to be. Useful. There's no way for it not to be beneficial. It's going to relax the muscles. Yeah. It's going to increase circulation. If we understand anything about the body, it's that warmth and circulation is good. Exactly. Stagnation is bad. Just in general, every single injury anybody might have, no matter where it might be, you have to get circulation, you have to get warmth, in order to, for that part of the body to heal. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's like it is a knee jerk reaction and the medical profession, it serves many wonderful purposes in many ways. And the way the educational structure is, they're really limited to their boxes of. Approved procedures, and we know there's politics involved and money involved with, the medical association and all of that. And it's really based on not looking at the holistic health of a human being, but trying to stop like symptoms from proliferating. I'm in some ways I'm not surprised that the medical establishment would respond to something they don't know and they've never researched, and most of them have probably never experienced. One of the things that you'll notice about the doctors in the articles that are advising against it, is that they don't know about it. They say I don't know what that involves, but I recommend against it. I don't think that you should do it 'cause Douching is bad. Okay, steaming isn't douching. Number one. Number two. And so when I had a chance to have this conversation with conversation with Dr. Lorena, I said, why would a doctor advise against something that they don't know? And she said, oh, it's very simple. They don't wanna get sued. Doctors, when they give an opinion, it's a medical opinion. And so if a doctor doesn't know about something, they will advise against it because they could be held legally responsible. If somebody. Tries that and is harmed. And that actually was a really important puzzle piece for me to understand because I'm just sitting here like, how could they be advising against something they don't know? That's just, it seems ignorant to me. Yeah, I think the answer would be I don't know. I would need more information about that. And we have now all of these, when people. Unfortunately when people Google vaginal steam, they come up with all these articles of doctors that say, or articles that say, doctors say, don't do it. So anyway, so she explained to me again, a doctor can only talk about what they learned in medical school. Exactly. So they're limited by the curriculum that they were presented with, and anything outside of that, they actually have to advise against it because of the legal framework that they're in. So that was also like a, another turning point was in 2015 when that when all of a sudden, vaginal steaming came into media. Exactly. And there were all of these articles against it. But it sounds like the turning point that that inspired or, propelled for you was data collection, like providing, doc documented evidence as to the benefits of it, which five years later is just. So critical and important because I feel like steamy chicks become this a amongst everything else, like a data collection hub. I, until that point, I completely thought that I was not using my degree. I have a master's degree in international development. I have a strong social research background as well as statistical background. As well as research, just all of the all of this, this training that I had done in school, I was like, yeah, I'm not using I, as far as I was concerned, I wasn't using my degree at all. But that turns it on. I was like, okay. Let's see if we can find any studies. Let's see if we can find any evidence. Okay. You know what, at that time I couldn't find any studies, even though I have now. In fact Korea is like the hub of studies on al steaming studies. Yeah. The problem is that a lot of them haven't been translated into English, but there are several studies. It's really cool. So at the time I couldn't find any studies, so I said, fine, here are case studies. Here's 10 case studies about steaming and fibroids. Here's 10 case studies about steaming and bacterial vaginosis. If there isn't any scientific data if the medical establishment hasn't studied this, then fine, let's look at these case studies, and you can take. Case studies and create statistic statistics from those. And you can take case studies and you can learn from those. And so what, when I started to create my blog and started to create these studies and it actually culminated last year in, or was that Yeah, I believe it was last year. I got together with some of the other steam practitioners and we created a pelvic steam testimonial database where we were like, okay, let's record all of our stories and all of our customer, our client's stories let's start to, collect them. And that database is so interesting because you just hear story after story and it's really, mind blowing how many different things that steaming that at least the people the participants contributing to this database, how many different areas of their life that steaming touches. I think I absolutely, I count it up, because people say what does steaming do? That's a really hard question to answer because it it's what doesn't it do? It improves so many different areas of people's lives, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's the database that's currently on the Steamy Check website. Which is so fantastic because, you, you can see the age of the steamer, you can see the issues that brought them to steaming. You can see the protocol, the prescription, if you will, of how often, how many months they steamed and the resolution. And it is really. An incredible resource because anyone who have, who has, issues with fibroids or irregular periods, or menstrual cramps or trying to, or fertility issues, like you can go to that database and look at the experiences time and time again of people with the similar symptoms and how they've resolved it. People's symptoms have gotten better, their periods are less heavy, their periods are less painful, they're able to enjoy sex again. Whereas it was, it's been painful, as they've been dealing with this issue and there's just so many, side effects. And what's really interesting about that, that has been another moment for me to say. Menstrual pain isn't normal. Pain is not okay. It is not. Okay. That was another turning point for me, Rahi, because it, again, people say, and if, when you I have, so I just to, I like to get the books. So I have gynecology books too. I have like probably six textbooks that gynecologists themselves, that are used in medical school and it, they absolutely say that menstrual pain is normal. Menstrual pain is normal. It's a, it's normal. There's not a problem. It's a normal part of menstruation and that is not okay. And so this is what we ha have women have been told. This is the messaging that we have received. Forever that menstrual pain, sorry, during our lifetimes, during our entire lifetimes, that menstrual pain is okay. And I think this is this is a huge problem. Why? And who decided that it's okay for women to just suffer and just be in pain and you can't even, there's not even there's not even like a huge research study going on right now to end pain. There's research studies to end cancer. There's research studies to figure out what's going on with what's the one where people forget their, where they forget dementia or Alzheimer's? Dementia. Alzheimer's. There's, there's research about eyes. There's research about all of these things. Yeah. All of these things that affect people's life. Yeah. And especially things that affect. Older people's lives. Why isn't there a hu all of this research money going into solving the menstrual pain issue, women shouldn't be in pain. Yeah. But you can't solve an issue if you haven't decided that it's a problem. And so medically, according to Western medicine, menstrual pain isn't a problem. Yeah, I think I, I heard in one of your podcasts you shared that the NIH devotes about 1% of their budget to women's health issues. 1%. And they are the leading research funder for, medical knowledge in this country. And yet, that's just incredible. I also interviewed Ellen Heed on the podcast, and her whole dissertation was about, result sex sexual pain. Postpartum as a result of scar tissue. And she found that there's all this research being done on scar tissue remediation that is non obstetric, right? And yet a leading cause of sexual pain postpartum is scar tissue. Like all 10 of her sample subjects had that it sexual pain due to scar tissue, and yet there's no research being done on it. To your point like if we're not asking the right questions, we're not the, we're not conducting research in the right areas. And if in gynecologic books, it says it's normal, then it's not gonna be looked at or taken seriously. And yet, Kelly from your work and from steamy chick's research, it sounds like 90 something percent of menstrual cramps. Disappear from steaming. Precisely. I feel like the data collection that you've done, both intentionally and frankly I think the Facebook steamy chick forums. Are just like a gold mine, of data and research. It's like getting a PhD in vaginal steaming to just type in. I'm serious. 'cause I mean there's the regular forum, but then there's the practitioner's forum and both of them you can type in anything. So listeners out there, you can go to, is it an open group? The Steamy Chick forum? Yes. On Facebook. Yeah. So on Facebook you can type in. Steamy chick vaginal steam forum. Correct. Which is open. There's also one specifically for practitioners, which is also great. But you can type in any issue you wanna explore, that you wanna resolve holistically and naturally, whether it's fibroids and things like endometriosis, which is really tough. Even the medical community hasn't figured out how to really address it, but it's like mind blowing all the range of things. And once again, all of these things like, brown menses color or menstrual cramps or, heavy bleeding or, shorter periods, these are not regular things you can resolve them with with vaginal steaming in a holistic and healthy way. Going back to the turning points, it sounds like the data collection was a huge one and it was in part done to defend yourself from all of these, the medical establishment like making accusations. Yeah. And then that started getting me looking at the state of women and it just women's rights that got me understanding that there's some type of a woman's women's rights, aspect to what we're doing and just, and that there's also some type of empowerment and there's also some type of stance that you have to take. I didn't, when I first steamed, I wasn't taking a stance. I wasn't taking my body back, but I did take my body back rather than me, now just, depending on the gynecologist telling me brown blood was normal. I was steaming monthly, right? And I had specifically learned to steam monthly from the Korea. And spa owner told me in Korea we steam once a month after the period minimum, she said, and then we may steam more often if there are other issues. And so I was like, okay, once a month, and so I started doing it, but I didn't realize that was me taking my body into my own hands rather than handing it over to. Men every time that I had a health issue. And when I say men it's fair to say that Western gynecology, even if you have a female gynecologist, is a profession that was founded, established, and is currently still dominated by men. The early founders of Western modern Gynecology were all men that were operating on, on women. And they started off doing all of their experiments actually on enslaved women. And so all of the gynecological procedures that are done today, were founded. By white doctors that actually killed black women enslaved in order to be able to create these methods. So again, this is another, this was another turning point. I didn't know that, I had no idea how significant it was for me as a black woman to not any longer, go to my gynecologist, go to a man to ask them if it was okay to steam my own body. But it definitely was triggering when I saw those articles that said, don't do it. You should not steam. And I'm thinking, why I've been doing this. This has been healthy for me. And so I had to make a decision right there, honestly, to ignore that advice or not to follow that advice and to decide what I felt was better for my body. And that right there, Rahi is. It's a big thing. It is a big thing. It's a big thing. And I've continued to learn how significant it is more and more as the more that I learned history. So what I found out was that and there's a really excellent book which I'll share with you as well. And it's basically how did women's medicine fall into men's hands? How was, how did gynecology become a male practice since the beginning of time? Midwives have been women, majority all women. And in fact, women's health wasn't even considered part of medicine. And then all of a sudden, a couple hundred years ago, gynecology was founded. All of a sudden all women's issues, including postpartum, including obstetrics, including pregnancy, all of it, it has to do with we have these male, these men that are in charge of it who are using surgery and pharmaceuticals as the main methods of treatment. It's interesting 'cause it seems like in a lot of other cultures all around the world where vaginal steaming is. Accepted as a, as a healthy practice, especially postpartum, especially to increase fertility, especially as a preventative measure. It's midwives really that kept it alive all over the world, wouldn't you say Kelly? Yeah. Especially midwives in rural areas where there where there aren't any hospitals or clinics. And then there's there, and then there are a couple exceptions. Korea is one of the exceptions. It works so symbiotically with the the rise of even the modern western gynecological practices that are used in the country. And I think it's such a good example because it shows there's no conflict between these. You can deliver your baby in a hospital with a doctor and in the maternity ward afterwards. Steaming can happen. Steaming can happen to help the mother recover. Steaming can be prescribed to help somebody if they have pain during sex or even to use steaming prior to, first sex after, after giving birth. There's no reason why these can't be used together, right? Absolutely. And so Korea is such a really great example of that, and I'm not sure, I think it has something to do with the fact that. I dunno, there's something there. Yeah, I grew up there as a kid and the sauna people, my friends in LA love going to the Korean sauna, the women's sauna. It's a really, it's a real, integral part of the culture, like going to the sauna, steaming so I think there's that piece. And also South Korea is largely rural and there is, like when you look at how the religion it's not dominated by like a Christianity or like a puritanical religion. There's actually a fair amount of shamanism still being practiced in the rural areas. So I think all of those things combine in the culture to be open to, different forms of healing and care. What you're bringing up Kelly is it's true. Like why not, have, a, a western delivery in a modern hospital and then go and get steamed. And that's exactly what your the fourth trimester postpartum study examined. I forget how long it was ago, two years ago, I believe. I started to work with so I was actually talking to Kimberly Johnson and she's the author of the fourth Trimester Study and a good friend of yours. We actually know each other through Kimberly. Exactly. And so she, was having, this experience where, she talked about her difficulties postpartum. Yes. And she wrote this book, and now all of a sudden her inbox, her emails, her Instagram inboxes are, is flooded with all of these women who have all of these problems and how do we and who are looking for solutions they're not getting and these are people who have not that they, they're not willing to go to the doctor, but they haven't received adequate care or attention for the problems that they're having. For example, postpartum sex, difficulty with postpartum sex due to scar tissue. Not something that, you know, that doctors are concerned about. It's not something that's even considered Exactly. During the postpartum checkup, for example. And so there are all of these issues that are going com unaddressed or Yeah. That the care for them is inadequate. And so she's getting all of these, and so she, of course, she, there's certain things that she can do to help people, but there were too many people. And so I, I have the, I had the same problem. And so we were comparing this, just all of these women that need help and how to even get help to them. And Kimberly mentioned, she said with steaming, steaming is low cost. And it's something that people can do in their own home. They can learn to do it themselves, and they can immediately receive, relief Yes. For so many different issues that they have so many different issues, right? Yeah. Postpartum and especially because she's dealing with the scar tissue, the postpartum scar tissue. And this is another thing that's just astounding that, people are saying, oh, there's no way steam can help. If you've ever had, if you've ever delivered a baby and if anybody's ever had a tear and had stitches, how could steaming not be relieving? How could it not help to keep that area clean so that it can heal better? It's just something that people really do see immediate benefit and relief from. And and so she said. She had heard me talk about how I wanted to do a study. I'm, I think in studies, I'm always just if we had a study that did this and this, like I just always have all these ideas for studies. And she said when are you gonna do that study that you told me about? And I was like, not right now. I'm busy. So she was like, so I, my, the whole history of my company Rahi, is that I've been on back order, I've been on back order since the very beginning, and I'm still working to not be on back order. Okay, I see. So I was like, not right now. I'm busy. And so she was like she's I just think that, she's can I help? What can I do so that we can get this study done? Because I think that it could really make a big difference. And so anyhow we did it, we did the fourth trimester vaginal steam study. We figured out how to do it just as a grassroots study rather than going through through a university. And we just figured, okay what's the least amount of money and resources that we could get this done, basically ourselves. And so with this study, what we did was we wanted to look at. We wanted to look at postpartum, a group of people who did steaming postpartum, and then a group of people who didn't steam postpartum and compare. And this was another turning point because as we were trying to figure out what should be included in this exam what I realized is that there's no definition for postpartum recovery. What is postpartum recovery? What is it, if anybody's had a baby, what did your doctor talk to you about? What postpartum recovery is at that sex? What needs to happen between those six weeks before you're okay to go back to exercise, work and sex? What is supposed to happen at that time? There's no definition for it. There's no list, for it. Yeah. And so what we had to do, I looked at, okay, what do midwives, what do midwives look for? When they're contending to somebody postpartum? And then what do doctors look for that six week checkup? What are the emergency things that people, that we're checking for right after somebody gives birth? And and then beyond that, I was like, and what isn't addressed. Prolapse scar tissue. There's a lot of things that aren't addressed. Even broken bones aren't assessed after somebody gives birth. I myself, like I, I'm realizing I had a broken Cox bone after I gave birth to my first child. Wow. And nobody ever asked me. So I just, if somebody asked me, I'd say, yeah, I can't sit down. I sat on my side for about two years after my f nobody checked. I see. There was no, there was no point that I was to be assessed to make sure that my Cox six bone didn't break when I gave birth to my 10 pound baby. Naturally, there's no point in this whole process where that assessment happens, right? So during this, we actually got to assess what is postpartum recovery and what should be checked during this postpartum exam? And so we created our we were able to create what we felt is a. A comprehensive postpartum postpartum examination. And that was really interesting to be able to create and look at those indicators of what we should be considering. And we considered even something like processing the birth, women emotionally processing the birth, right? Women are checked to make sure they don't have postpartum depression, but there's no point that women are able to emotionally process the biggest event of their life. Yeah. Why do we only just check to see if she's depressed and not give her a tool to process it, or acknowledge, this rite of passage. So anyway, so we were able to create this and so Raquel, the midwife did these exams on day four and day eight and six weeks. And there were vast differences between the STEAM group and the non-team group. So the STEAM group had better they had less, they had no issues with their stitches. By day eight, after five days of steaming, they had zero issues with their stitches, and then huge. Then also at the six week mark, which is huge. Just that alone is huge. They were able to urinate without burning sensation. They didn't have pooling. They didn't have itching. And the weird thing is that everybody ended up with stitches in both groups. Now the non-team group, at six weeks we're still dealing with the issues and definitely at day eight we're still dealing with the issues. They hadn't even resolved their stitching issues and their scar tissue by the six week mark. And so people say water could do the same. You could use the spray bottle and spray water on there. Water with salt or water with herbs, it's not gonna do the same thing as steaming. No. Steam is part of it's made up of water, but the steam combined with the heat and being turned into its gassiest form, steam is actually a gas. It's able to penetrate the stitches and go deeper. It's able to get. And underneath in a way that just spraying warm water can't. And and so that was something that was big a big difference. Our steam group was not constipated. After steaming. They were, they started out constipated. Everybody started out constipated by day eight. They were not constipated. And then actually we stopped steaming. None of them were constipated by day eight. And then the entire other group was by six weeks after they stopped steaming, actually the constipation had returned for some of them. So they were better off when they were steaming than when they had stopped steaming. We saw that the blood pressure this was an interesting one 'cause I've never, considered people's blood pressure levels or anything like that, right? The STEAM group, their blood pressure was lower and this poor non steam group, their blood pressure was higher by day eight. So when you look at blood pressure, we're one of the things that we can, one of the things that we can think about with blood pressure is stress, of course. So the STEAM group, their stress levels appear to be lower if we're looking at the blood pressure and Sure. So it was lower, all within a healthy range. And then the poor non stem group, their blood pressure was going up and it stayed within a healthy range, but it their numbers were getting towards the, the point where it would go unhealthy. One of the leading postpartum. Causes of death is called eclampsia. And the sign, the reason why they take the blood pressure is to monitor for eclampsia. One of the signs of preeclampsia or eclampsia is high blood pressure. So how it's very significant that the steam group's blood pressure was going down and staying within a healthy range, whereas the well sure. Non steam groups blood pressure was going up, it was going up, it was going towards something that was unhealthy. Whereas the STEAM group had that a hundred percent, all of them were going towards safety. And doesn't that make sense though? Knowing what we do about the soothing effects of the steam but more specifically the downregulation of the nervous system with the effect of the vagus nerve being soothed. It's gonna down, regulate the whole body, downregulate the whole nervous system of the body. And on day eight of, postpartum, I can only imagine all the stresses that you're surrounded with if you're not addressing a way of soothing the nervous system. And going back to what you shared Kelly about, the regulation of the bowel movement. Of course, if the muscles are being relaxed with the steam, if there's more blood flow with the steam, yeah, sure. That's gonna make a lot of sense too. And so we don't, I don't know if you want me to go through all the indicators, but there were like eight we actually looked at more than eight different things, but there were eight areas where the steam group was way better off than the non-team group. And it, they didn't bleed for as long. They started losing weight earlier and they lost more weight overall and so on. And so it's really worth taking a look at that. And, again, it's not hard to show, just because STEAM hasn't been studied by Western medicine doesn't mean that it's not valuable. And if we did use scientific studies to evaluate it, there's no reason that we wouldn't end up, being able to see scientifically the benefits of it, because it's not, this isn't. Something that, steam touches you, it actually touches the body, it touches the physical body. Of course it's gonna have a physiological response. There are entire cultures who do that as a regular practice, in the care of their new mothers. And there's a reason for that. There's a reason why it's been a practice for centuries. So I wanna point out to listeners that this study, the fourth trimester postpartum study, is available to look at for yourselves@steamychick.com. The there's the abstract, there's the protocol, there's the different measuring protocols that they used and the results. And it's really worth taking a look. As well as the other testimonial database, which I think is just a phenomenal service to to show people who are curious or interested. Like it's just over a hundred examples of, my gosh, like if someone went through the Facebook forum, there are thousands of case studies, like thousands from fibroids falling out to like the green mucus just dropping out to, just left and right. There's just it's incredible. It's incredible. So you can even have somebody send you a private message of their fibroids that came out. I always tell people, I'm like, please don't post them on the forum 'cause I'm actually squeamish and I don't like to see it. Yeah. But so then they say, okay, private message me and I'll send you the photos. And they send them around, yeah. No, I've seen those photos and it's amazing. Yeah, but it just, it makes so much sense that, not only the steam for all the reasons you mentioned, but combined with, we know how pot and healing herbs are, and you guys blend them. People can blend them in such a way that it really addresses what needs to be ified or what needs to be cleansed. I wanna ask you, Kelly, before we wrap up, like what were some of, so staying on the theme of what blew your mind, so with the Forum and other, because now it's it's so many, you've certified so many practitioners. It's like there's a a whole tribe of practitioners whose minds are being blown, just with this simple holistic, like time tested practice. What were some of the outlier stories that stayed with you or blew your mind? As, you're hearing about people steaming all over the world. Oh wow. Honestly, Rahi, there are so many. There are so many. There are so many. And what I really love, so I've certified over 800 practitioners worldwide and what I realized is there is a certain amount and Rahi iss one of them, including me. What I realized is there's a certain amount of safety that is needed as I started to a cer as I started to become a supplier, selling vaginal steam herbs and saunas. People always had all these questions and so people needed, a lot of how to advice as well as like the safety safety measures as well as how to get the right herbs. Based on the different type of menstrual cycle. And and so that's basically, I was spending all day long answering the same questions over and over again. And so as I finally, started a certification program to certify more practitioners who could help guide people through this process and make sure that they're doing it safely and with the right herbs and so on. And what I think is really cool is seeing how each practitioner applies it within their own profession. So cool. Nurses are becoming certified practitioners. We have massage therapists. We have acupuncturists who are now integrating it, right? And so it midwives doulas. And so it's so cool for me to see the way that it, like the way that steam works even within these different Yes. Like professionals professions. Yeah. And like lately physical therapists and chiropractors have started using it. And at first, like I can teach the steam part, but I actually need the practitioners to explain to me how and why steaming is useful for chiropractor. How and why is it useful for physical therapy? You as a I don't know how to say your title as a somatic sexual, yeah. Sure. Expert, you explain it in a way that I can't even fathom explaining it. Once you start talking about down the vagus nerve and downregulating it when you say it, I know it's true because I've steeped Yes. But that's, since that's not my professional discipline, I can't speak in those terms. And so what's really cool to me to see is how it applies in all of these different professions. Yeah. Even to therapy. There's a therapist who's we work with people who are diagnosed with premenstrual dysphoric disorder. She's and there's no way that we can't, that we shouldn't be using the steam to also address all of the black and brown mensies that these women end up having. Absolutely. So every different profession is showing all these different ways. Yeah. And so basically what I'm, what's what for me is so cool to see is how. You really can't work with women if you're not working with their menstrual cycle. That's what I take away from it. You can't just help somebody overcome sexual trauma without looking at her menstrual cycle. How is she supposed to overcome sexual trauma? If she gets bacterial vaginosis every time she has sex, or if she has scar tissue that causes pain every time that she has sex. How can you overcome pain and the trauma from pain when she still has pain? So it's just you can't really deal with women unless you're not dealing with their menstrual cycles. How do we not know that that the period is actually a womb cleanse? Nobody knows this. Nobody knows that the period is a womb cleanse, right? And yet women are able to run, businesses and be a top level CEOs of any business in the world. And yet. We are not trained to learn that our own period that happens on a monthly basis is a womb cleanse. And that pain and cramps is a sign that the, that you're not getting a full cleanse. It's just, anyways, I just, there's just something very foundational about menstrual health and women that I think the world has been ignored, gets overlooked for a very long time. Completely overlooked. Yeah. So many things you've touched on. I, the thing that really stands out to me, Kelly, is that the turning point you shared about recognizing that the wisdom you were hearing of your own body and seeing its what your bodys, what your body was telling you was more important than what the medical profession was telling you about your body and that sense of ownership and reclaiming, that your body's wisdom is its wisdom. And I'm gonna listen to that. That's, that seemed to be a real turning point. I love what you share about how it's like the steam is I don't know, like a musical melody and all these different professions are creating different kind of jazz riffs out of that musical, these musical chords you're providing. I know for me, like of course we want to regulate healthy menstruation, but as a somatic practitioner, it's really been profound as a practice to invite clients to start to get back in touch with their feeling sense of their pelvises, especially if they've been if they're recovering from trauma and have dissociated or cut off from their pelvises. I had one client who, she was eight months postpartum, had a traumatic birth, and so disconnected from feeling her pelvis. Kelly, like within 30 seconds of feeling the soothing steam. She's, she felt her vulva for the first time since that her traumatic birth and just like tears coming down her face because she was finally getting in touch with the grief and sadness of her experience. Like her baby was healthy and fine, but it was traumatic for her. And then the increase of blood flow and sensation should not be underestimated. It's incredible and that's what blows me away is it's so simple, but it can be so profound. I had a client who. Who had been circumcised as a child, in Northern Africa. And so she was not feeling sensation. And we used castor oil just, covered her clitoral complex and her vulva with castor oil. And after one steam session sensation and pleasure returned. So there are all these different kind of, yeah, it's incredible. As you're saying, there's a whole variety of different ways to utilize this ancient and holistic practice beyond just regulating and supporting, the perfect period, four days fresh, red, without cramps. And that's such a perfect example. Early on, I also had a client who was a FGM survivor circumcised. She was circumcised against her will as a child, and the way that she's using seing right now. Within that circle of of circumcised women that are now, working on getting back all of their function and all of their sensation is incredible. I also have another I had a client who was a she was she's a sex traffick survivor. So she was held captive. She was kidnapped as a teenager and held captive for a year. And has the way that she's able to, and now she's a, she helps to empower other women. Cool to, who are. Who have survivors escaped. Who are survivors Yeah. To, get their lives back. And steaming is absolutely a part of, what she's bringing to these women, and so it's just, it's so cool to see all of the different areas. But I think I think we, we really have to talk about men's health as well and how steaming can be useful for that. Sure. Because you are the second male practitioner who was certified by me, and I have a third who's going through the program now. And I don't teach about men's health in my program. But one of the cool things is that in Korea, steaming isn't specifically a female practice. It's used for both genders. Yeah. Yeah. Koreans just love the sauna. It is just like anything that could happen in a sauna, they're really into, let's do it. Whether it's, I know, soaking or massage or steaming, it's it's really, it's fascinating. It's incredible. Earlier this year we lost one of our heroes in the black community, Chadwick the Bozeman Star of Chadwick. Yeah. Chadwick Bozeman, the star of black Panther. Black Panther. And I had known from, okay, so one of my, one of my close colleagues is Chris Gonzalez, and her mother is Korean. Yes. And so she always goes in and finds the Korean stuff, the Korean data, the Korean information. Yeah. And so I had known from her a long from, a while ago that steaming is used in China and Korea for men's health as well. But since it's not something, since I, I've never worked with male clients, it's just not. Something that I focused on. But when Chadwick died, I was just like, oh man, because he died from colon cancer. And colon cancer is one of the things that steaming can treat or esteeming is used to treat in in both Korea and China for men. And it really made me realize, I've got this, I've got this gang now of 800 steam practitioners around the world. We all have men around us. We all have sons, dads, uncles, cousins, brothers, husbands, whatever. We need to start getting the steam to them as well. And so the areas that steam, and again, I'm not the expert in this. I am looking for somebody to step forward to be able to help to train the practitioners, along these levels. And Chris Gonzalez is a great she's a great resource as well as a couple of other people. And then you, I always send people your direction if I can. But even you, I'm not sure if. Again, because I haven't trained anybody how to use steaming for men's health. But I do wanna mention that steaming can also be used for men's health. It can be used for enlarged prostate, it can be used for co all the rectum and colon issues. Whether it's hemorrhoids, whether it's there's some type of prolapse whether there's fissures or some type of bleeding or whatever's going on there. As well as any type of genital cancer as well as erectile dysfunction and infertility issues. And I don't know what to do with that 'cause I don't actually know what blends to use and how to go from there. But I do know and what I hope that we see over this next year is a growth really in this area of using steam for these issues. Yeah, it's there's a massive problem. I think prostate cancer is the number two killer for men, and yet the solution, there's just, it's waiting. And I agree. Again, the basics are gonna apply to any body. The increase in blood flow, the relaxation of pelvic floor muscles increase the blood flow. It's gonna increase sensation, it's gonna increase libido. I've certainly and I know there's one I for, I, I'm, I can't recall her name now, but I know there's one colleague on the practitioner's form who makes a blend for men. Jole. Yes. And yeah, it's, so there's a lot of there's so much potential for it for sure. And, I've experienced the benefits of that increased blood flow for sure. I started with the with the cleansing blend, and then someone suggested using the disinfectant blend. And so I steamed, at night I went to bed and, the wood the next morning was of a different quality and there was just a lot of wood on the block. Let's just put it that way. Yeah it has that effect, right? We know it increases blood flow. And yet it, you're right, it's underutilized and it's not really, there's not a lot of attention place there. So that's a really great intention for the next year. And yeah. Yeah, it's of interest to me as well we should just stay in contact as far as what possibilities there are. Yeah, it's natural Viagra. That's what I, that's what I hear about You're saying it's natural. It's yeah, absolutely absolutely. No, no side effects, but higher libido and, just more fun wood. So that's all good. I think that's one of the reasons why I, why I stay away from it is I'm like there's gonna be, there's gonna be some changes if men, used seeming. But when I started to think about the application with like with older when men start to deal with these enlarged prostates, they can't urinate. And one thing we've seen with women postpartum yeah, it's painful to urinate. And as well with men with enlarged prostate is. Okay. It's painful or it can be slow. Yeah. As soon as you introduce that steam, everything flows, the urination flows, it unblocks. And so the, just the stimulation, something happens there. And so it's just like, why should people not be able to urinate? They should just be able to Yeah. Do a steam session and be able to like, empty out the bladder that way they don't have any of the complications that happen. What's really interesting is there's even a medical device that was developed in order to as a prostate surgery alternative. And they use a machine, but they machine. It points at the enlarged prostate, and then it shoots steam at it and melts it out. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. Which makes so much sense to me. It makes so much sense and it speaks to the power of steam to penetrate the tissue so it can actually get to, the root of the issue. So for listeners you can go to steamy chick.com. It is a comprehensive resource for all things steaming related. Kelly, thanks so much for taking time outta your day to share your your wisdom and your experiences with us. Anytime Rahi. Anytime. Notice how this episode is landing in your body. How is your womb space or pelvis feeling right now? Is there any message or request it may want to communicate to you, and might it welcome any kind of support from you? Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) Featured Podcast Episodes on Somatic Sexual Healing & Sexual Embodiment Conversations with leading somatic sex educators, therapists, and practitioners exploring intimacy, pleasure, and embodied healing [See All Episodes](https://rahichun.com/podcast) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) #### [Dr. Aline LaPierre](https://rahichun.com/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and author of Healing Developmental Trauma [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) #### [Susanne Roursgaard](https://rahichun.com/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body) Psychotherapist/Sexologist/Mid-Wife and Creator of The Gaia Method [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) #### [Devi Ward Erickson](https://rahichun.com/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) Founder of The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) #### [Dr. Liam Snowdon](https://rahichun.com/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) #### [Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://rahichun.com/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) #### [Dr. Ellen Heed](https://rahichun.com/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) #### [Keli Garza](https://rahichun.com/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of Steamy Chick & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) #### [Kris Gonzalez, L.Ac.](https://rahichun.com/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of The Way of Yin [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) #### ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](https://rahichun.com/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) #### [Dr. Betty Martin ](https://rahichun.com/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving *About the Show* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** Inspiration, irregular periods, Pleasure Practices, Rahi Chun, Rahi Chun podcast, Sexological Bodywork, Sexual Pleasure, sexual trauma recovery, Vaginal steaming --- ### [How Genital Armour Develops, Affects Our Sexuality, and Resolves from the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body/) **Published:** February 2, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Unconscious genital guarding, which can show up as numbness, pain, or a lack of sensation, often occurs within the genitalia and pelvis from a breech of boundaries and nonconsensual sex, but can also develop from non-sexual experiences during childhood, as well as during love-making with loved ones. Susanne Roursgaard, Psychotherapist/Sexologist and Creator of the Gaia Method speaks about her experiences as a mid-wife resolving genital armour with her clients and how these experiences informed her decades of work culminating in The Gaia Method. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover-1024x1024.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # How Genital Armour Develops, Affects Our Sexuality, and Resolves from the Body **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** I first came to know Susanne via an online interview where she shared a somatic practice for waking up the tissues and sensory receptors of a de-sensitized cervix by having the cervical tissues engage and explore the sensations of one’s finger, rather than having the finger explore its touch of the cervix. (She guides this exercise near the end of our podcast.) Upon learning of her unique expertise as a mid-wife, sexologist, and psychotherapist, I was inspired to participate in an 11-day dearmouring training she was co-facilitating at Angbacka, Sweden, with the wonderful group Dearmouring Arts. I’m glad to have enjoyed keeping in touch over the years, sharing insights of our respective work, and witnessing the evolution of The Gaia Method she has co-created with her beloved partner Adam. Susanne’s depth of experiences and wisdom with genital dearmoring is always fun and fascinating to explore. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun") [the-gaia-method.com](https://www.the-gaia-method.com/) *Today’s Guest:* Susanne Roursgaard, creator and founder of The Gaia Method (since 2010), has decades of experience as a practitioner, therapist, teacher and workshop leader. With her passion for helping others to feel freedom, safety, boundaries, joy, compassion and love, she is dedicated to bringing healing and trauma release to her clients – to feel natural sensitivity and pleasure in the body, to feel alive, to be at home in their body and to have peace of mind. In essence, to help people discover who they really are. Susanne is and has always been very curious, wanting to know and understand life. This has lead to a variety of education as a Psychotherapist, Body-oriented Trauma Therapist, Sexologist specializing in Sexual Abuse, Family Therapist, Couples Counsellor, Interspiritual trainer, certified TRE-provider, and last but not least, her medical background working as a Danish Midwife for 23 years. Susanne was born in Denmark, now living more around the world than any specific place. Her bases are The Netherlands and Denmark. She is a mother of 2 children, both young adults now. Susanne is now sharing her life, her path and work with her beloved Adam Beker. She is a Shamanic and Tantric practitioner with a committed meditation practice. *We explore:* $ “Slow is the fastest way…”. $ How Susanne’s path as a mid-wife working with clients with a history of sexual abuse led her to becoming a sexologist and develop a specialty for Genital De Armouring. $ How up to 80% of sexual armour is from early childhood experiences – before age 7. $ How pregnancy and childbirth can invite triggering experiences reminding the body of past sexual violations. $ How completing the energetic interruption of unintentional C-sections can be facilitated via the cervix. $ How boredom and frustration during sexual intimacy can be a reflection of genital armour. $ How the body can respond to arousal stimuli physiologically, yet not receive embodied pleasure, and how permission and conviction can be the keys for their resolution. $ How “being with what is” – without imposing any outer agenda onto the body, can be the medicine inviting the body’s trust and responsiveness to return. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Rahi: Welcome to organic sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, sexological body worker and creator of somatic sexual wholeness. In this episode, we explore genital armoring - how unconscious guarding patterns can show up as pain, numbness, discomfort, or a lack of sensation in the genitalia. How much of our adult pelvic armor forms during our childhood years, and what's required to release this safely and effectively for restored pleasure and wholeness?. At the end of the episode, Susanne leads us through somatic exercise for waking up and engaging previously disconnected tissue from within the genitalia and pelvis. Rahi: I am thrilled today to be inviting Susanne Roursgaard, who I just admire and appreciate so much in our world. She has such both a depth and a breadth of experiences that address the whole body and the whole person. So a little background about Susanne: She is a psychotherapist, a body-based trauma therapist, a sexologist specializing in sexual abuse. She's also a family and couples therapist and inter spiritual trainer and has been a midwife for 23 years. And so, she has synthesized and synergized her decades of experience into her body of work called The Gaia Method, which is so holistic and complete. And it's so beautiful in the ways The Gaia Method holds that sacred space for inviting us to return to our essence. Suzanne, thank you so much for being here. Susanne: Thank you for inviting me. Rahi: Yes, so Susanne given the depth of your experiences in both somatic and trauma based therapies, as a sexologist, as a psychotherapist, um, there's so much we can cover, but I really I'd like to focus on, specifically Dearmoring and specifically, genital dearmouring. So to start off, I would love to ask you Suzanne, how your path led you to your experiences in holding space for genital dearmouring? Susanne: Well, it started when I was a midwife with me often experiencing that pregnant women, birthing women clearly gave signs, body signs, or even came to memories of sexual abuse. And I knew nothing of it. I didn't know how to hold space for it. And it was not part of the medical training, uh, within obstetrics. Um, so I decided that I needed to know more about that because I, I met a lot of women. Uh, we're not talking a few percentages. We're talking somewhere between 25, 45% of all the women I would get in contact with would actually display symptoms or behavior that equals that there is some sort of sexual abuse or incest, or maybe even rape that that is hidden in their system, or they haven't shared it, maybe with us. Some of them don't know. So I decided to become a sexologist and specialized then in sexual abuse, incest, rape, because of me meeting them, uh, in the hospitals and really not knowing how do you work with them once they are, you know, pregnant and giving birth and why do they react so strongly to the sexual abuse when they're in this, um, state of life? Susanne: So that was sort of my, my way into to starting to discover this. And then, I ended up becoming quite a cognitive sexologist. Um, having a lot of people refer to me from others. Um, and, some of the ones that I would get referred to would be to me would be someone that had been in therapy for like 25 years. And they would come to me and they would speak about their story - like they were talking about laundry, you know, they were completely unaffected. And I was like, there's nothing I can do with these people. And at that time in my life, I've been in my spare time following a tantric and a shamanic path where you do a lot of - let's call it alternative ways of working - at least viewed from a more normal cognitive, um, medical system. Susanne: So I had one client, especially that was say, let's call it my, my point of no return. Uh, that came to me. And she was talking about really, really severe sexual abuse throughout her whole childhood. Like it was nothing. And, uh, and she ended in therapy for so many years. I was like, I can't do anything with her. And I just sense that her body was screaming for help. So I asked her, okay, you seem to have spoken enough about this. Has anyone ever addressed your body? And then she completely broke down and said, I just heard the biggest YES finally inside of me. So I told her that we can do experimental treatment that I normally don't do in my professional life, but I'm used to working with this in my own communities. And there, we have really good results with working with various kinds of sexual trauma, sexual numbness, um, disconnectedness, whatever it is, uh, through what you would call genital dearmoring. Susanne: And, um, that then led to her saying, yes, please. I would love to have a session. So she came for a session and this woman was married for 17 years already. And she was sexually active with her husband, but she was completely numb, meaning that she felt nothing in her genitals when she would have intercourse, what she felt and enjoyed about being sexual with her partner was the heart connection. The love. She could feel that they were sharing and the joy and the happiness that she saw in him because she allowed him to share her body. So after a week of the first session, she called me and she said, Susanne - did you know that it feels good to have a penis inside of you. And I told her, yeah, I do know. She was like, can I have the next session? So she got the next session. Susanne: And after her second session, she called me and said, my partner thinks I've had an orgasm. What do you think? So she described it and say, yeah, that sounds like that could have been an orgasm. And within three months, all the women that was in herself health group for incest started calling me and say, Hey, you've been working with our friend and, you know, could you work with me too? And then gradually, that was my way into it. But in the beginning, I truly only worked with sexual trauma, sexual dearmouring, and then later on, uh, I expanded that because trauma is trauma when it comes to the body. So you can have things stored in your genitals, even though it's not a sexual trauma, it's another type of blockage that sits in that area of the body. But my way into it was through my,, being specialized within sexual abuse. Susanne: And then gradually people that weren't sexually abused started calling me and say, Hey, we hear about your work. I'm not sexually abused, but I have this problem. Do you think you could work with me? And everybody got the same song it's going to be experimental. I can't promise you anything. It's sort of outside the system and you have to be aware. I don't promise you anything, but if you're willing to, to explore, then I'm willing to do this with you. And yeah. And then over 10 years, it developed into becoming the Gaia method gradually. So that's sort of my way in. Rahi: That's so beautiful. I love that. Um, I wanna, I wanna take a moment to really explain a little bit about how armoring can form in the pelvis and the genitalia - really anywhere in the body and going back to your first experimental client, 17 years in a marriage, that after that one session,, I think you shared with me before that she was someone who had a history of, of sexual violation - severely. And I want to touch on the degrees to which our tissues hold on to unintegrated emotions, and how restoring sensation in the tissues is like a gateway for releasing those past, unintegrated emotions and trauma. Susanne: I mean, they're, we often people think of trauma as being a mental thing. And that's a very, very big misunderstanding because trauma is something that happens to the body and the mind might remember it, but it might not, but your body always remember it. So, so that means that the trauma is actually a physical experience in the body that will sit as you can call it memory residues that is sitting in the actual tissue in your nervous pathways, in the cells. And typically when, when we experience trauma and I really mean trauma in a very broad sense, because trauma can be these one time, big incidents, where it's very big and extreme what happens to you, but that is not the type of trauma you will find the most of. Most of the trauma we find in the body is what you could call developmental trauma, meaning that - that's all the times throughout your, your childhood. Susanne: When you grew up, when you were not met, seen, treated, respected, uh, handled the way you actually needed it. And where are you again and again, basically had to defragmentize a part of yourself by closing elements down of yourself. And part of that can then resolve in numbness in the tissue because you've completely disconnected to this area of the tissue. The tissue is still sensing, but the signaling to your conscious mind and your brain about what's happening is not there anymore. So it's a disconnect inside the system. It's not really because the nervous system is broken. It's just not communicating with you anymore so you can pick it up. Or it could be the other way where the body gets hyper-sensitive - where it's so alert to not have this happen again, that it, the tiniest little thing will then be sending a signal to your brain like, Ooh, danger, danger, it's painful. Susanne: You're damaging yourself. So even the slightest little touch can feel like people are stopping you or pushing really hard. And it creates pain that is not in proportion to the kind of action, the touch that you were actually just exposed to. And there's so many things that can add to trauma in the body and this body armor. And one of the things is, like I said, when you're not treated the way you needed to, or if you have one of these extreme one-time incidents that could be a severe traffic accident, it could be, you know, um, you had earthquake big time, earthquake, you know, things that are tsunamis things where you're like, okay, this is violent. This is big. And it's typically out of your control, it's happening, but it's not something that keeps repeating. Whereas if you are growing up in a, let's say a dysfunctional family, or just a family that don't get you. Susanne: See you for who you are, then you will have the same thing repeated again and again and again. So even if the actual thing that has happened to you seems like it's just a little thing, but it's little thing times a thousand times, 10,000. And that means it builds gradually to not being this little thing anymore. And so elements of what blocks inside your system is from what's happened to you done by others. But then there's the type of body armor that is created by our own way of treating ourselves - such as not respecting our boundaries, uh, pleasing others, even if we cross our boundaries, because we are afraid of not belonging to the group, not being accepted and being, you know, so we do a lot of things ourselves as well that creates armor. A classic one for women is, when we talk about genital armor is when you are even in a loving relationship with a partner you love dearly. Susanne: Maybe he feels like having intercourse a little more often than you do. And you notice, Oh, it's two weeks ago when he starting to be like a little, you know, grumpy and you sense, okay, he's, he wants to go there, but basically you don't really want to go there. And maybe you notice when he gets a little itchy, he starts also being annoyed with the kids easier. And you're like, Oh, I don't want it to harm them. And the woman might be like, yeah. And you know, I do enjoy it. Once we start, it's just the starting, I can't get myself to it. But, you know, once we start, you know, five, 10, 15 minutes down the road, I'm just as much into it as him. And then you, as a woman, decide to interact and maybe be penetrated with the penis inside at a moment where your body is actually still saying no, no, no, I'm not there. Susanne: So no partner has been violating you. You've been inviting it in out of a lot of, taking care of other people's needs and basically putting yourself and your own need lower to, you know, I wanna, I, I love him. I want to show him, you know, you're important. So, you know, I'll get there and this, these kinds of behaviors that are, I think most women that are in longer relationships, they have experienced this at least once where they weren't really there, but then, uh, okay. You know, I'll get myself there, but these type of actions that we do ourselves, they can actually create armor as well and can create pain or numbness. Rahi: So, um, there's a lot of great, great things that you shared here. I, I feel like what I'm hearing is every little contraction within the body and the body's tissue really accumulates and adds up and can start to create that armor really anywhere in the body. But our genitalia is so sensitive and such a vulnerable part of our body that, um, the armor that can build within the genitalia for a woman or a man, um, it doesn't necessarily have to do with just a violent penetration of, uh, breach of boundaries. It can happen within loving relationships with each contraction or resistance that is overrun by the body's owner by just succumbing or wanting to please. Um, and, and by the way, this can happen within men too, whose libido is less than their partner and they feel obligated or forced to engage. And then they start feeling disconnected from their own genitalia. Susanne: And, and then there's, there's another aspect to it. And that is once you start working with sexual, dearmoring, my estimate is that with everybody I work with with sexual dearmouring, 80% of what we are actually healing and dealing with is early childhood things. It's from before the age of seven. It's often when they're two, three, four, five years old, and I wasn't good enough. I wasn't the good boy or the good girl. I was, you know, too slow, too much, too little, um, not lovable. Many of these negative self voices that many of us have deep within, even though we might try not to let people know we have them, but that negative self voice very often is actually located physically within the genital region or the pelvis region. And I can't say if it's true, but there's a Norwegian, sexologist and psychologist that worked a lot with children. Susanne: And he did some research that actually showed that by the age of seven. Uh, he did research on children by the age of seven. A lot of children already had very intense, chronic tension within the genital and pelvic regions that was stemming from these small things with dysfunctional things in the family. But very much with this, I'm not good enough, you know, I'm not sweet enough, I'm too much, or nobody loves me. Uh, so, so those are often things that when we start working with the genital dearmouring, even if, if, if the client came to you because they want to work with their sexuality, it's not rare that it turns out that that thing in their sexuality actually stems all the way back to this little inner child, not feeling, you know, loved or good enough or appreciated, or well, maybe simply feels like I'm too much or I'm not entitled for anything - not worth it. They're definitely there. So it's a misconception again, if we think that sexual dearmouring equals we're going to work with sexual issues, we can be working with deep, systemic, low self-worth issues. Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. I find that actually, so many, just as you're saying, Suzanne, so many of the sexual issues that clients come in with are actually kind of life issues. And as you say, that can be threaded back all the way to childhood and the early formation of one's sense of self-worth and identity. It makes so much sense to me that the Norwegian sexologist discovered this because, um, you know, that sense of belonging, we feel in that sense of security within the pelvis. And of course that's where the psoas muscle is as well. Um, as well as you know, who knows what gets passed down from our parents through first contact with our genitalia and potty training and our first exposure to playing with our genitals or self-pleasuring and discovering a relationship with that important part of our body, Susanne: A lot of shaming comes from there. And sometimes the shaming is, you know, that, that you were told by words, for a lot, it can even happen much, much earlier. Imagine you're a tiny little baby and you have a diaper on 24 seven, and that diaper never comes off unless you need to be changed because you either did number one or number two, and for a child that wants to touch themselves. And, Oh, it's just nice to get the hands down. If you're a little baby and finally the day becomes up and I want to have my hands down here and your mom or your dad is changing you for number two. So the parent will be diagnosed. Don't do that. Don't touch, but you are not aware of number two, being all over the place. And if you put your hands down there, you're going to get messy. Susanne: So if you were putting as a little child, your hands towards your genitals, because I just want to touch, it feels like it's calling me and now you get this very strong. No. So you actually get a shock saying hands do not belong there. And you might even get this feeling of I'm bad, I'm wrong because I wanted to do this. So, so even that can become a part of this feeling, shame about that area. And it stems from being diaper changed and your parents not realizing that, that them saying no, because they were afraid of the little one getting, you know, feces all over their hands. That actually when the child is coming from a completely different intent and doesn't know anything, then, then that's what is going to be effective in there. So if it goes really deep, Rahi: It goes really deep. Yeah. And you know, it, it makes me sad just hearing that because just recognizing how the pure innocence of a child and particularly a child's exploration and love of their sensations can get shamed and punished. Um, and again, there's that contraction within the nervous system, uh, not only of the anger, but of, you know, the threat of love being taken away by my caretaker and how that leads into our adolescent behavior and can lead into our adult behavior. So I want to come back to the genital armoring and really, because it is, they are, unintegrated emotions that live in our tissues and in your journey, holding space for genital Dearmoring, the role and, you know, it's all over The Gaia Method, just the role of the unconditional presence and inviting the story of the body to be told for that unintegrated emotion to release - how important that is in all dearmoring. I mean, I know you distinguish your dearmouring, as soft from kind of standard dearmouring. And I would love to hear how, just how you discovered, um, that unconditional presence and the soft dearmouring is, is far more effective. Susanne: I think, again, that, that part stems back to being a midwife. Whenever you work as a midwife and things aren't working, right, and, you know, you learn to have hands that are present - hands that are there, hands that are sort of leaning in - until the body lets it in. So part of that already was in my system from how we work. but also, because for me, it makes no sense that when, when you have armour in your body, you have armour, because there was some needs or a boundary that was overstepped, meaning something was pushed too far inside of you. So to me, it's never made any sense at all, that you would then use a technique of pushing too far to try to heal something that was pushed too far, because for me, that equals breaking down and you can break down armor, but that has a lot of issues, that sometimes, can surprise people afterwards with some, nothing happens other than it broke it down. Susanne: And it was very painful and left them yellow, green, black, and blue. Um, but with others, they actually get re-traumatized severely. So for me, it's also a question of whenever you want to heal trauma or heal, any unresolved, aspect of the person, that aspect is still in there. But that aspect is in hiding because I'm not welcome. I'm not allowed to be here. I'm not, I'm not invited to the table yet. So for me, it's very important that the whole approach is an approach of respect and inviting and knowing that a body holds immense wisdom, like our brain thinks it's wise? - not at all compared to a body. So it's also about trusting that if we're inviting something and it chooses not to come forward today, there's a good reason. And that reason can then be that this person needs to develop some skills first before he or she is ready to actually look at this problem or this history, or it could be that I have to look inward and realize that whatever is hidden in that emotion inside this person. Susanne: I, as a practitioner actually cannot be with that emotion myself. And then I cannot hold space for another one, the welcoming of that emotion and, and the wisdom of a client will be able to tune into that, that, - Oh, this person won't be able to handle my anger or my resent or my, you know, nasty words if that's what needs to come out. So, so it's, it's very much about this really inviting, accepting, welcoming that everything is welcome. Nothing is wrong and that all aspects and all parts of people need to be allowed to be part of the whole. It doesn't mean that a part needs to take over the whole, but it needs to be part of the whole so that all these fragmented parts - that we have had to reject, can come back in again. So, so, and the soft Susanne: touch - it allows the body and the nervous system to not have to go into self-defense against me, but if I start pushing really hard and I push beyond the pain threshold of a person, that body is going to, when we go into the primitive systems of fight, flight and freeze, those will get activated if I push too hard, because now that body will start to look at - Wow, this person is attacking me. This person is a threat. So what do I need to do? Oh, I need to tense up even more to withstand that pressure. And that means that, you know, whatever needs to come from within is not going to reach the surface because now the body is busy, basically defending itself. And then I would have to push harder and harder. And at some point we might break it down. But when we don't do that, it's sometimes can take with some, a little longer in the beginning because the body gets almost, if it's used to our harder handling, it almost gets a little confused, like, - Oh, she's just going to be patient. Susanne: Is she just going to sit there and wait,? -is she - nah, she can't be that loving because all the ones in my memory from my past, they would always, when I weren't fast enough, get angry with me. So sometimes the body will also in the beginning when you show it this soft, very inviting way, almost test your patients as a practitioner. Like, can you really stay loving and present still, even if I don't deliver. And when the body realizes that, Oh, actually I'm, I'm still being accepted - my speed is being accepted, then suddenly the body actually, dares stepping into co-creating with you, instead of being done to. So it becomes a co-creation between this holding the inviting space, uh, with, with lots of love and compassion and, you know, all, all those emotions that were absent when the fragmentation inside the person was created, that's basically what we're sort of providing, so that it can come forward and come into a present healing of receiving what was lacking in the past. Rahi: Yes, yes. Um, yeah, what I'm hearing is really the importance and necessity of meeting the tissues and the nervous system where the tissues and nervous system feel ready and safe to be met because we are reversing that reflexive self-defense response again, within the tissues and the nervous system and the important, I always, I often view, um, you know, understanding like what age a significant trauma happened. I feel like the tissue is that age, you know, feeling stuck or, yeah, it's still reliving that story. And so if it is a three-year-old, the three-year-old will test the adults around them to make sure that they're absolutely safe. Susanne: And also when you activate the tissue or for instance, uh, of wounding that was placed in the body when the person is three, very often, the, the person can go into a regression that, that time and their capacity and the ability of tools they can use within their own system equals the age of a three-year-old. So that's also why sometimes you might even ask the client, how old do you feel right now and days and would be like - It's weird, I feel like I'm three years old. Okay. That's tissue telling you how, how old were you actually, when this freeze came into your system. And then you want to meet it according to the age. Rahi: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we're meeting it and, rewriting the story for that three-year-old - within the three-year-old's body - now in the body of an adult - that it, it can be safe, it can be seen, its voice can be heard, and it's safe to feel its natural sensations again. Um, Suzanne, I want to actually touch upon something you shared earlier about, you know, as a midwife, how you recognized the high percentage of trauma that was stored within the body of your clients. And I mean, given that, given your background as a psychotherapist, sexologist, and a midwife, you're kind of the perfect person to ask this, you know, when those unintegrated traumatic experiences are still held within the pelvis of a pregnant woman, the way that those, that those experiences and memories can be activated during the pregnancy, I'm guessing, especially the third trimester and the birthing itself, when those tissues are being touched into, in a way that may not have occurred since a violation or a past trauma. Um, yeah, I did the degree to which that happens or can happen. Susanne: I mean, the reason it can happen is because anytime you have a, an unwanted experience, let's call it that instead of trauma, but an unwanted experience that your body has memorized in a way where your body's like, I never want to experience this again. Then your body has also created triggers, memory triggers. And that means anything in, in the future, in the present moment that reminds you of these triggers will be enough to activate that old wound - And pregnancy and childbirth hold a lot of triggers that equals the trigger and, and the situation actually that you were in, especially if you have sexual trauma, which means that, um, being pregnant, it can be that, you know, there's something moving around inside your body and it's out of your control. And sometimes, you know, when you're in the third trimester, the baby can be kicking all over and you're tired. Susanne: You just all be quiet. Cause you know, my, my belly is like, I need a break, but you can't get the break. So that in itself can be this feeling of - I wanted to get out, but I couldn't. In childbirth it has to do with, especially when, when the head is born, the crowning of the head, uh, that type of pain, but in the reverse direction,, is similar to the pain a child would experience if an adult is penetrating them.. So the pain has so much resemblance to that memory of how the pain felt that it can trigger it and even breastfeeding can trigger as well. Because again, breastfeeding, you don't own your own body. You are on call whenever it fits the baby. And if you were abused, then you were on call whenever it fit your abuser. So, so you can have, you have a lot of situations that are triggers, which also means that you have a lot of women that actually don't even know they have had abuse until the triggers gets activated and the memory comes back. So yeah. Rahi: Yeah, I'm just, I only had one client I had came in, I think she was at 38 weeks, so she was safe to work on, but she was very intentional about wanting to release whatever emotions were within her, her vaginal canal, before the birth. Um, and she had a big baby and she feels like it really, really helped this. This brings us to Tova. I want to ask you about Tova. So, for our listeners, so Tova, uh, gave me permission to reference this story in the, dearmoring training at Angbacka, Sweden. Um, Tova went through an experience where, uh, through Suzanne's, uh, support and guidance was able to complete an energetic interruption within her body, during her birth giving when there was an unintentional C-section, um, Tove's great. She's healthy, she's a doula now and her baby is adorable, super healthy, but she had this, um, stuck energy. And I wanted to invite Suzanne to describe, um, what happens when there is an, an unintended C-section that occurs, especially when the, the parents are planning for natural childbirth and, um, what you did to facilitate the release of that energy. I found it fascinating Susanne: When you, like you say, when you have the intention of giving natural childbirth and you then for whatever reason ends up with a C-section or even the forceps. So the vacuum extraction where it's not natural anymore, uh, there is, for many women, especially this sensation or feeling afterwards of - I was a failure. I failed on something so fundamental for any woman to do - something I should have been able to. And for some women, it actually means that they get sort of a hate relationship to their body. Almost like their body deceived them. You didn't do what we were supposed to do. And then other times it can play into, if you already have a feeling like, you know, I'm never good at anything. And now you also failed your childbirth. So you can have this, um, deep sense of, of not being a real woman, because you couldn't manage what a real woman should have been able to. Susanne: And, and that considers a very deep wounding, and it's often a deep wounding that actually affects the connection between the child and the mother, even if on a physical level, the mother is doing all the right things with the child. You will often experience there's something energetically between the child and mother that is, it's not really there. And sometimes you can even experience that these children prefer their daddy over their mother, even though the mother was breastfeeding, but I still prefer my daddy, you know? And so, so, there is something that gets interrupted somehow. And when you do sexual dearmouring, uh, if there is any kind of birth trauma, whether it was a C-section or the forceps instead of, or the vacuum extraction, instead of natural birth, some women will experience that when we touch upon different areas of the inside tissue. Susanne: And especially, when we touch around the cervix, that suddenly they, they are, you know, moved back to the sensation of the childbirth. Like they feel like they have contractions or they feel like, Oh, it's almost like there's a child that, you know, should come out. And in that situation, you can go into an energetic birth rebirthing as I call it, but it's an energetic one, but it's an energetic one that is done in connection with the woman's sensation in her physical tissue. And what kind of images, what kind of sensations, what kind of thoughts and emotions that bring up in her system? So for the woman who, who enters this sensation of a rebirthing is starting energetically for her - it truly feels like this contraction. There's a baby - with her mind, she knows that's not the fact,, but this is how it feels in her body. Susanne: And in that, uh, position, we can simply go into childbirth, have her start pushing, have her, you know, grab your legs, pull them up, you know, if there's an extra helper or have them support her, you know, lift up and have her push. And as the practitioner, what you do is that you give just a little bit of resistance against the cervix so that she has something to push against. And at some point she will feel like, Whoa, it's crowning, it's coming out. And it will really feel like her. And you will typically see these mothers spontaneously, take their hands down and, you know, literally not do like this, but grab this invisible child, put it on their belly and really hold it, like there is something here and typically go into crying relief, joy - that totally looks like if you see a beautiful movie of natural childbirth, whether it's child comes out, you know, and the mother just, you know, blissfully cry from relief and happiness, and you can often see that coming and then right after that, Susanne: Sometimes then the deep grief from the birth that they've been carrying comes, comes as well. And, and the very interesting part is that I've, I've been doing these kind of rebirths so many times - I don't know how often anymore, but with the ones where there have been some disconnection to the child, it's never been, you know, they have a good connection, but it's never been, you know, what, they might, sometimes the mothers know from other children, they have there's an element lacking. And, and all of those that I've known that had that issue when they come home and they connect with the child immediately, - it's like, it was never there and that's even been when the children has been five years old, 11 years old, 14 years old, you know, 14 year old teenager that just constantly slams the door in the face of mother. Susanne: And, you know, it's just me. And then they come home after a rebirth like that. And suddenly the teenager doesn't slam the door and speaks nicely and come and sit down and say, - Hey, you want to hear what I did in school to them? The mother's like, what, where they share with me. I don't know what happened, but something in our, in the energetic connection has completely switched. So it's quite magical. I don't understand myself what's going on. Um, I know about, um, Oh, what's it called? Um, family constellations. And, and this is what it reminds me of the same kind of effect that you hear from family constellations. Uh, and, and what I've noticed also when I do these rebirthing is that it can only be done, uh, if, if the woman actually senses it, but it can be invited. So if I have women that know they have birth trauma, then when we start working internally, and especially when I'm addressing the cervix and working around the cervix at some point, then I will be holding the cervix and I will be asking them, could you please start pushing us? Susanne: push down. And then we see in very often, if they have an intention of going there and the body actually wants to go there, then just as often by doing this invitation, we will experience that it does start happening, even though it didn't open up by itself. But at some point the body also says, ah, it's not going to happen. But so sometimes we invite it to see is, is the body willing or not? But it is very beautiful. Rahi: Yeah. I mean, it was so beautiful. And, um, you know, Tova gave me a ride back to Stockholm after that training. And she was just feeling so different in her body. Uh, and as you know, her, her relationship with her daughter who was, I think about two at the time had changed, um, you know, what strikes me - what strikes me is recognizing once again, when there is an interruption of the organic life force, how the organic life force wants to expand in the in the body. So the cervix is like preparing for nine months, or maybe even longer to, you know, embody the sacred, you know, past the sacred birthing. And so it makes so much sense to me that when it's, you know, for medical - for whatever reasons the C-section occurs, the cervix is still in a yearning kind of incomplete stage. And that it, that those memories are that that sensation, uh, would still be held there in the tissues. Susanne: I mean, the, the whole body is preparing for birth. The, the many last months of the pregnancy, getting everything loose or softer, more ready to be able to expand and dissolve. And so definitely the body is preparing itself for this is the road we're supposed to go down and something is interrupted, uh, on a bodily level. Definitely. At least that's my take on it. Rahi: Yeah. You know, I want to just comment on cervical dearmouring for a moment, because I find that for, for most of my clients the cervix is quite armored when, when it's first made contact with, because I think most women, you know, certainly are penetrated before their bodies are ready, during their adolescence. And then all of the, you know, medical procedures that cervix has have to endure. Um, but within, you know, one session, it can really dearmour quite quickly and sensations can return. And then there's this whole, you know, almost like a part of their body they weren't connected to can, can reconnect. Yeah. Susanne: I, I think there's another element to it. And that is, I mean, the cervix is this hidden organ. It's not like a man where you, you sort of have to go pee and you have sort of a natural access physically to, to your genital where this part of the woman's body is so hidden up there. And definitely many countries, many religions do not teach women much about what they look like inside. So, so for many women, they are not even aware that this body part exists, which means that even on a emotional and mental level, you're not connected to it. It's like this non-existing part in there. And then for a lot of women, the only connection they have to it is that they have been, uh, having intercourse in a positions where there has been a bit too much, let's call it banging straight, directly on the cervix, which has been painful depending on where their cycle is. Susanne: So they also have this like, Ooh, there's something in there that can hurt. And that means they don't necessarily get this sensation that there's anything positive about the cervix, because nobody ever taught them and they didn't get to connect themselves with it. So I feel like many women, when we start working with sexual dearmouring -, they're actually on a discovery path of just starting to get a relationship with their cervix, to realize that this cervix is a magical gateway to immense types of orgasms and experiences that far, far overseed,, for instance, a clitoral orgasm. Um, so, so that's also part of it too, to even just embody that body part and realize, Whoa, there's a body part here that can do things and actually can increase the pleasure I, as a woman can can experience when I do choose to be sexual intimate, whether it's with yourself or a partner. Rahi: Yeah. I'm always amazed because I feel like it's, you know, amongst the most important aspects of a woman's sexual anatomy, as well, as you had mentioned, the vagus nerve goes all the way down to the cervix. So, the quality of orgasm is going to be full body, open the heart. It's going to be so other worldly. And yet I feel like we're in a, in a kind of stage where people are just discovering or just becoming educated about the sacredness of their cervix. Susanne: Definitely. But you can say that in general, around female genitals, I mean, it's only what 10 or 15 years ago that it was discovered, you know, the size of the clitoris.. And the shape of the clitoris - before that, you know, we didn't know anything about that. So there's been a tendency to not really from a medical point of view, having much interest, uh, in the female genitals. And then also, because most of the medical knowledge you had on female genitals was what doctors could discover from doing. Um, what's it called, um, autopsies on corpes and corpses do not open up and flower and close. And so a lot of the knowledge was based on not knowing how this live organ actually can, can really move a lot and move down and pull itself back up and, you know, almost have a life of its own. So, so those things are really only in the last one, two decades, that this is starting to come up at least in the Western world, because you can still find a lot of information if you go more towards the tantric, Asian, old knowledge about, uh, well, even the Quodoshka, um, native American, they seem to know much more about sexuality than, than let's call it the typical Western world. Susanne: We're only sort of catching up slowly now to, to the sacredness and, and yeah, the, the potential I would say. Rahi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's endless the potential. Susanne: There's one thing I didn't get to mention when we talked armour that I would love to actually address because many women will be like, no, I'm not numb, so I don't have that kind of armor and I don't have pain - Oh, I don't have armor. Perfect. Then I sometimes ask them. So if you are, uh, sexually intimate with penetration, does it get boring within five to 15 minutes? A lot of women will be, yeah. You know, after 15, 10 minutes, you know, I do my little wiggle so we can get it over and done with - that is armor too. That is partial numbness. And a lot of women do not even know that - that boredom when you are being, you know, whether it's massage touched or, or being intimate, uh, physically, if you get bored after a short period of time, that is actually also armor because you're not receiving all the, the expanding pleasure signals. Your body is just not armored with numbness immediately. It just shuts down gradually after you started. So, so a lot of women know that one that, Oh, yeah, it gets a little boring off the five, 10, 15 minutes, and that's partial numbness and it's also harmful. And it can all come to life, like you said, and it's, it's really just about addressing it - giving it attention and staying with it and meeting it and touching it softly. Rahi: Yeah. I'd love to touch this phenomenon that you, that you, that you spoke of, that speaks to the desensitization kind of the lack of stimulation, um, which is within clients, where there is a physiologically, noticeable response to stimulation. So physiologically, there's a healthy response, but they are not giving themselves permission to register the arousal and pleasure. And, you know, in some clients it'll be like overcoming childhood shame. And then it's like, you know, I had one client say, Oh, I just felt my father leave the room. And then the pleasure started coming. or, you know, other clients where it seems like it's kind of allowing the energy to kind of open, reopen the channels. And then the, the, the arousal pleasure responsible connect, like in the synopsis of the brain. But can you speak to this phenomenon because I know you've seen it quite a lot. Susanne: Yeah. I mean, it's really about this internal capacity of sensing yourself because when we are touching and we're seeing, well, physiologically, it's responding, but it's responding due to some touch we have, but internally the person is not connected. And that is really the neuron pathway between your, your conscious awareness, your brain and the actual tissue that's disconnected. And like you said, shame is a big one, lots of various cultural things. You know, what kind of culture, religious things can also be, and why you are not allowed. Uh, but also, um, it can also be a, what's that called? I'm trying to find the English word here - conviction, that that is the reason you can't feel something because maybe you were brought up with very strict parents where no fun until you've done all your chores and all your homework. And especially when we talk about sensitivity in the genitals inside - for most it's linked to,... sensitivity is linked to, then I can feel my pleasure. But for instance, if you were brought up with you don't get out, have fun, and play until you did all your chores and all the things that were on your list. And most adults have a list that will never empty out in the day because it's long enough for, you know, Rahi: All the time. Susanne: And if you have that really strong built into your system, you are incapable of giving yourself permission to explore pleasure because you still haven't done your chores. So, there's so many aspects to look into. Some of them are more cognitive, am I even allowed to feel, or do I have to perform first? That's one of them. And the other one, like you said, it's the shame. Or like there's family members watching me energetically and they need to clear this space before I can actually be with my own body. Fear is also one - fear of what other people would think about you, and that's sometimes is a fear that wasn't there when they were small, but it came there when they were teenagers having their first explorations within, you know, sensuality, sexuality, and typically exploring with another one who is just as insecure, not knowing what's up and down and right and wrong. Susanne: And sometimes that other one has been responding to your maybe very expressive, uh, body language with -"what are you doing!" Where you feel like, "Oh, this is wrong." So there can be many, many aspects to, to why it is that we can't feel it. But one of the aspects that I typically do when, when I, or the things I I stopped practicing is to, you know, have the client work with themselves and then start doing this little practice of, um, sensing the tissue with a finger. So now it's my hand exploring, and that could be externally, but if they're internally, then the finger is exploring the walls of the vagina, maybe the cervix is they can reach it, maybe the G-pad, but then after a while, I'd tell them, okay, hold your finger still. Now have your tissue feel the finger. And there, you can often see, can they, or can they, so you can get a sense here of whether or not their internal sensations are there or not. Susanne: This is also linked to what is called, um, uh, the, the, Oh, my English is failing me right now. Uh, when you have sort of, uh, the primary root - or the first root of, of pleasure, which is the direct route of pleasure, that's an internal experience of what goes on in my body. And then you have the indirect route of pleasure, which is, uh, where you need something else to give you permission to experience it. And that is often what's involved with when we have this kind of, I can't sense it, that, that this a direct route of pleasure connection has been distorted somewhere down the path. And every newborn baby is born with that intact, the capacity of feeling pleasure in the body and feeling bliss. I mean, if you massage a little baby, they're just going to be, you know, enjoying it, no shame, no holding back, but then life comes in with our, you know, upbringing or shaming people, ridiculing us, whatever happened, culture, um, all these things that then gradually makes us cut off this ability of actually sensing the direct route of pleasure. Susanne: And now we start needing an excuse and that excuse could be - have you cleaned up your room and done all your chores, or it could be - I can only enjoy sensations if it's being done to me. I sometimes meet women that come to me and say, I don't get it. You know, if, if my partner is, is, is pleasuring me with his hands or with his mouth, uh, I get the most beautiful orgasms, but I've never been able to masturbate and get an orgasm on my own. Here, you have a classical one. I can't do it to myself because I'm not allowed, I need an external reason for it to be okay. But that one is very important in this one. Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. So it's really about permission and for our listeners to really investigate the degree to which we do give ourselves permission and where that might've been, um, where that contraction may have been formed. It could have been being caught, self masturbating for the first time by a parent and being yelled at, or it could've been, you know, an older sibling or a relative who's being judged for, for being too sexual or promiscuous. Or as you're saying, you know, we can have it done to us, but to do it to ourselves is a whole other realm. So to really inquire within your body and your yeah, your -- where that, where that permission may have gotten stuck, Susanne: If you are, for instance, a client and you don't feel anything, then you know that the job is to, or the not the job, the journey is to, to really start touching and then, you know, sit with it. I can't feel anything. And then, you know, the next thing that might arise is frustration. Okay. Then you sit with the frustration. I can't feel anything. And maybe after the frustration the sadness comes, I can't feel anything. So you sit through all emotions, because what you're doing now is - you're giving permission. But very often when we start a journey like this, if it's a woman coming, cause I want to be able to feel pleasure and I want to be able to do it myself. And then she started touching, but I don't feel pleasure. She gets frustrated and then - see, it's not working, but this is the journey towards pleasure because the journey towards pressure means can I give myself permission to feel what's alive right now? Susanne: So when you start the healing journey of this in the beginning, what's alive is I can't feel anything. Okay. Sit with that one. And then the next feeling that might come underneath, sit with that one, because every time you give permission, then it can transform into the next little thing. The next little thing, the next little thing, and gradually you'll start to realize, Oh, now it doesn't feel this numb anymore. Okay. Sit with this. So it's very much about the, this compassionate allowing and being with what is, that is actually the permission giving that is needed to end up having full re sensitization at some point. Rahi: Yes. Yes. I love that. Being with what is, and again, meeting the tissues where they feel safe and ready to be met and allowing whatever story, even if it's boredom or frustration to be felt, to be told, to be expressed Susanne: And, and especially frustration. Because if you sit and hold onto a tissue, that's numb and you get frustrated. First of all, you probably get frustrated with yourself in many other situations of your life. Meaning you're not very loving towards yourself. So this practice is also a practice in self-love. Can I sit with this and not get frustrated, not get angry? And if I get frustrated, can I even have compassion for the frustrated side of me? Yes, but also at the same time, remember that when we get frustrated that actually this numb tissue or over-sensitive tissue that's causing me pain, is not trying to harm me. That tissue is doing what it's doing in an attempt to keep me safe, because it was created at some point in our life where we need it, either something to stay away, then pain is a good way for us to stay away from something or something we couldn't stay away from because it kept happening. Susanne: And it was so uncomfortable every time it happened. So our body helped us and say, you know what? I'm going to help you. I'm going to make you numb when it happens, so you don't have to suffer through it. So whether we're dealing with armour that is numbness, or armor that is hypersensitivity - it's your body that at some point was doing its very best to protect you, to actually serve you. And now when we want to tell this armor, Hey, you know, I don't need your service anymore. Then it's very important. At least this is my view to not come at it with this anger and get out and go away because you know, no, you know, this, this is a part of you that's been trying to look out for you, so now we need to get this part to understand that - we appreciate what you've been doing up till now, but your services no longer needed. You can, you know, you can relax and then we can allow the body to restore again. So that from this point of gratitude, actually, Rahi: Yes. Yeah. I feel like this is such an important point, Suzanne, the body is infinitely wise and knowing what it needs to survive and to protect itself. So there was a reason for the tissues and the armor to form in order to survive certain situations. And this actually occurs, you know, especially in incidences of trauma, when we dissociate or leave the body, it would be too overwhelming to bear that experience. So the nervous system is really doing what it needs to, to survive. And I think it's especially important because I feel like there's something in our culture where I feel like if there is a lack of sensation or numbness, especially in sexuality, people want to go harder or faster or, and it's the opposite that's needed just as you're saying, there needs to be a safe space for listening and just being with and meeting the tissues with the safe space. Susanne: I have a motto in my company, which is "less is more and slow is the fastest way." That's actually my motto. And that's what I work out. And, and, and like I said, slow is really the fastest way because it's always only in the beginning, we have to be slow because by being slow, by being compassionate and patient and loving and, and just inviting and accepting the body for what, where it is and what it is at this moment - that builds trust. And when the body starts trusting, then suddenly the body starts pulling me on and say - Hey, let's go to this edge here and jump together cause I trust you. But as long as the body is not trusting it, it will be me pushing if I'm, you know, using the pushy type while the, the body is constantly trying to put in the breaks because all not too far, it's not too fast, not too fast. Susanne: So by being slow, you, you actually get this trust built. And the trust is not just between a client's body and me - it's actually also between the client's body and the client, her or himself, because often our bodies don't even trust ourselves because we have overstepped our boundaries again and again. The body has been giving us signals of - don't do this. Oh, I don't like that. And we just move on with it. So when we finally start to enter a healing path, doing the right thing, you know, I think I understand why a body is a little, like, can I trust in that? You know, because normally, you know, you know, every time I give you half a finger, you ripped my whole hand with you. Well, I'm gonna, I'm going to pause here and watch you and see if it's, if you really have that patience that you're sort of displaying right now, is it true? Susanne: So the, so the body often do the same with the clients, sort of, you know, need to almost rebuild the inner trust as well, of - you are listening now, you are seeing me, you were seeing my limitations, my boundaries, my borders, and also my capacity, because that's also often - you know, no, I can't do this. I can't do that. My body can't do that. And then you can work with a client, and suddenly they realize what a magnificent being that body is and all the things their body could, that they never thought they would be able to experience. So it's also this journey of, of trust in self. Rahi: I think that really sums it up really nicely. You know, it is a journey of trust with the self, you know, re re-establishing trust for the body to trust the, the owner of the body. Um, Suzanne, to wrap things up. Is there a somatic exercise you can share that can invite our listeners to explore a deeper connection with their own embodied sexuality? Susanne: Uh, my, my suggestion right here would actually be the one where we switch between the direct and the indirect route of pleasure. Is it, you know, how sensitive is my body actually, because most people are aware of their hands as sensitive, but then they, you know, think that this was my body feeling. And actually it was just still their finger feeding their body. So it could be placing the hands on the genitals somewhere, uh, maybe with a little pressure with the fingertips on certain points and then, use the fingers to really feel the tissue, you know, and the fingers can be, you know, putting a little sort of pressure that releases and, and gives in to sort of see, okay, what does this tissue feel like? So all the attention is now in the fingertips, exploring the tissue. Do that for a few minutes, get a good sense of what you're feeling, and then switch inward. Susanne: Like really put your attention inside, down through your heart, connect with your heart, move through your belly, into your inside of your pelvis, genital area, still having to hand connect, but now have the body feel what it feels like when the fingers touch. So you should have the same feeling like if it was a stranger's hand, you were feeling. So now you disconnect from the hands from the outside and inside and play with this, uh, switching, because this switching is really important, especially if we want to increase our sexual pleasure - sexual experience, because if you cannot have internal experience, it's, it's not really gonna give you much. So you need to awaken this side of you. Rahi: Yeah. I feel like this is also a way to, um, give agency to the tissues of the genitalia so that they have a sense of ownership of what they want to with what they want to feel and touch as well, rather than just being on the receiving end. Susanne: I would love to add a thing to it. And if, if the ones doing this chooses to move the fingers around a bit, then I would invite to really notice where, where is my sensitivity different. So that they start realizing - Oh, this part feels everything, this part just next to actually didn't feel as much so that they start to build this inward awareness of - what is my level of sensitivity? Where am I maybe hypersensitive? Where is their pain? Where is there a numbness or simply just a little boring, but I do feel it. And where am I? Like, I know my fingers touching something, but from the inside, I actually can't feel my fingers because that's also, when you do the internal, you might notice with your finger - I'm touching something, but when you're trying to feel the finger, you're like - uh-uh, the inside can't feel the finger, then you've just found the numbness area. Yes. Or - you notice I can feel the finger, but I cannot say if the finger is on my perineum or in my groin where you can't locate it, because that's also, then you're also partly numb because you cannot, you know, you don't have clear sense of where you're being touched. Rahi: That sounds wonderful. Um, so Suzanne, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your wisdom and really for the work that you are doing in the world. The Gaia Method offers retreats really all over the world. Uh, you can find the work of Suzanne and Adam, her beloved@thegaiamethod.com. That's The dash Gaia, G A I A-method.com. And I'll have that in the show notes as well. And, um, Suzanne, you've been offering virtual, um, guided self Dearmoring for women. Susanne: Yes. I have a closed Facebook group, uh, for women only. So men is not allowed in there. Uh, and there are women from all over the world by now in this group, where I normally will post, upcoming dates for when I will offer these guided online sessions. And the way they are charged is that it's on donation basis. So anyone can attend no matter the size of their wallet. Rahi: That's so wonderful. Well, thanks again, Suzanne is good to see you. It's always great to see you and I look forward to seeing you in person sometime whenever we get a chance to yeah, Susanne: Thank you. It's been a pleasure being here. Rahi: Notice how this exploration with Suzanne is landing in your body, and whether your body may be inviting a deeper exploration of any stories it may be ready and wanting to share with you. In the next episode with Dr. Ellen Heed, we explore how to resolve obstructions from within the genitalia and pelvis in the form of scar tissue, a leading cause of sexual pain, postpartum, as well as from unintegrated memories, whether from our own lives or from our trans-generational lineage. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share with your tribe, or leave a review. You can also download the free organic sexuality e-book at organic sexuality podcast.com until next time, take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) *Featured Episodes* With some of the wisest Somatic Sexologists in the Field. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [How Couples Can Resolve Intimacy Challenges and Re-ignite Sexual Chemistry](https://rahichun.com/podcast/how-couples-can-resolve-intimacy-challenges-and-re-ignite-sexual-chemistry/) **Published:** May 13, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** How can couples who love each other but are no longer feeling sexually aligned address their misalignments? Celine and Kevin, whose specialty includes working with couples, share common issues they witness and resolve, as well as insights into the “Wisdom of the Vagina” and the “Wisdom of the Penis.” **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover-1024x1024.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe now](#subscribe) # How Couples Can Resolve Intimacy Challenges and Re-ignite Sexual Chemistry # # **Share this episode: [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share)** Celine and Kevin’s partnership represents aligned and inter-dependent sexy and playful relating in so many ways – in their love connection, sexual alchemy, as best friends, and in their shared vision of bringing healthy and fulfilling sexuality to partnerships everywhere. Celine and I met during our Somatic Sex Educator’s training at the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco and we found a kinship immediately. She was very excited about her blossoming partnership with Kevin at the time, so I feel like I was getting to know Kevin then as well. I have since enjoyed witnessing and experiencing their partnership in love and purpose evolve and expand into new realms of service for a worldwide audience. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/CelineRemyKevinAnthony.jpg "CelineRemy&KevinAnthony | Rahi Chun") [CelineRemy.com](https://www.celineremy.com/) [PowerandMastery.com](https://www.powerandmastery.com/) [IG:CelineRemyLove](https://www.instagram.com/celineremylove/) [FB: CelineRemyLove](https://www.facebook.com/celineremylove) [Pinterest: CelineRemyLove](https://www.pinterest.com/celineremylove/) [YT Channel: Celine Remy/Intimacy & Relationship Advice](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvpPiloHyqVBfG_1jqSXGuA) *Today’s Guest:* Céline Remy and Kevin Anthony are an international husband and wife team who decided to join forces to create a worldwide movement of true sexual empowerment. Kevin, “The Truth Warrior,” is a Men’s Coach & Tantra Counselor. Céline, “The Intimacy Angel,” is a Holistic Sexologist, Certified Sexological Bodyworker, Relationship, and Intimacy Coach for men, women and couples. Together, they are truly the ‘Power Couple.’ They host ‘The Love Lab Podcast,’ and are co-creators of ‘Sexual Power and Mastery,’ an online educational training system that teaches the exact process to any man who desires to bring his ‘A’ game consistently to the bedroom. They guide couples and men on how to go from ‘good’ to‘AMAZING’ in the bedroom and beyond. *We explore:* $ How attending a Taoist female sexual energy workshop at 19, crystalized Celine’s life journey & purpose and how Kevin’s insatiable curiosity regarding sexuality and the body’s potential led to tantra & sacred sexuality “inner circles” until they both met and realized they needed to bring their love, sexual wisdom, and practical expertise to audiences worldwide. $ How for many couples, issues arise from a lack of basic sexual education and somatic understanding of the body’s erogenous zones and how they are designed to respond. $ How Celine and Kevin guide their clients to do a 180 from their previous habits and let go of any goal or destination making it all about the journey and exploration of pleasure – re-igniting the love for connection, esp for women who feel a relief from the pressure or need to orgasm. $ How what we think our needs are within a partnership are usually not our root needs, and how identifying what our real needs are within a partnership illuminates the process. $ How male ejaculation issues can be a result of one’s partner wanting to get the sex over with and thus, drawing on the penis in a way as to complete the experience. $ How “the wisdom of the penis” can pick up on the lack of emotional engagement or judgment by their partner and out of a sense of self-protection, hides as a result, and how “the wisdom of the vagina” can sense the unconscious intentions of their partner. $ How many male clients come to Kevin and Celine thinking there’s something wrong with them physically, and how the issue is usually a series of poor lifestyle habits which combine to create an unresponsive sexual body. $ How when sexual and body habits that formed as children change, lifetime behaviors can also change. $ How our sexuality can serve as a sacred window through which our life issues get resolved. Transcription of Podcast [ Email ](#) [ Download ](#) [ New Tab ](#) Speaker 1: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty and the realization of our embodied sexual nature: an invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, sexological bodyworker and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. Today we invite Celine Remi and Kevin Anthony also known as the intimacy angel and the truth warrior to the podcast, both Celine and Kevin, each developed an in-depth expertise in sexuality and intimacy before coming together into a beautiful marriage and partnership to realize their shared vision and love for empowering couples, men, and women, through their signature power and mastery programs and intimate work with clients. Today, they share their insights from successfully resolving a range of issues getting in the way of desired, fulfilling sexual partnerships. Rahi: Today I'm really, really happy and thrilled to be inviting my dear friends and colleagues, Celine Remy and Kevin Anthony onto the show. Celine also known as the intimacy angel, has a really, really fascinating path having grown up in Switzerland, really in a sexually more open environment than what we're used to being conditioned here in the US. Um, but her path included working in depth, a deep dive into various Taoists sexual arts with Master Mantak Chia, in Thailand, as well as living in an ashram and doing a deep dive into the Ayurvedic practices as well as meditation practices in India - that involves sexuality before working with hundreds of male clients as a sensual bodyworker before becoming a somatic sex educator, which is where I met Celine at the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. Rahi: And since then, she has been in partnership with her beloved Kevin, also known as the truth warrior and they have built an incredible resource for women, men and couples around sexual health and healthy embodiment in a holistic way. Now, Kevin, I feel like I also met Kevin in my sexological bodyworker training with Celine because she introduced me to him with a photo at the time and immediately saw immediately I saw his talent and the assets he brought to their partnership. He, has a history of, being a martial artist, a second degree, black belt in Japanese sportsmanship, as well as really being attuned with nature. He's an avid lover of nature - hiking all over the world. And he's also a men's relationship coach and a certified tantra counselor. So between the truth warrior and the intimate angel, we're in very good hands today, welcome to the podcast to both Celine: And Kiera here. It's a pleasure being here. Thanks for having me. Kevin: Uh, yeah, you definitely saw my talents. Rahi: Yes. Yeah, it was, uh, it was, it was hard to, uh, it was hard. Kevin: Yes, it was, Rahi: It was hard to, you know, the strength and the power of your assets were very clear. Celine: Thank you. And just to be clear to our listeners, he did not just send me a random Dick pic. I did ask for a really sexy picture because I was away and missing him. And then I was so proud of my man that I had to share it with Rahi. I mean, you know, Rahi: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That was my first introduction to Kevin and it was an impressive first introduction and a very, very fun one. And, you know, I feel like it really reflects the playfulness, the alignment. I mean, I know I've said this often, but I really feel like Celine and Kevin represent really a very, very healthy, loving, sexually alive and, wise, I mean, that's the word that comes to mind because each of you have really explored your,, you're both very embodied, you're both very, sexually aware and you've explored your sexuality before coming together to really share your, that embodiment with each other. So, you know, I'd love to start by asking each of you, I mean, I've shared a little bit about each of your paths, but, in your work as sacred sexuality guides for couples, for women, for men, through your online courses, what do you each feel like has been the most instrumental experiences that have informed your, journey of sexual ownership of really owning your sexual embodiment? Celine: So I'll get started. I think for me, it was about growing up in Switzerland that set a really good foundation for my understanding about my sexuality and my body, because we don't have the same hangups in many places in Europe than there are here in the U S. And when I was 16, my mom, got diagnosed with cancer, and that was a big wake up call that forced us to look at some of the habits we were having, what we were eating our lifestyle, and that started this whole journey for me to change how I..., What I put into my body. And I started questioning a lot of the things that had been taught, and that was like, what else am I being lied to? What else is out there? That is not really the truth. And so I was on this like journey of inquiry of discovering what was not being fully taught to me and, and getting into like new age-y work, like work bookstores and reading books on the power of affirmations, becoming a vegetarian. Celine: I mean, there were so many things happening in that time. And so over the next following three years or so of my life, I witnessed my mom healing herself through changing how she thought and what she ate and all of these different things. And one of the big catalysts was that she wanted to reconnect with her body and sexuality in a different way. She had her ovaries removed and she found this, that was the workshop for women. It was a weekend for women where we were learning all about our inner alchemy and using your sexual energy to heal yourself and empower yourself. And she said, this is what I need to do. And she's like, let's do this together. So here I was 19 years old with my mom. We went to this two days workshop on the, how is sexual energy, all of these weird things that are, I had no idea about from learning about the breast massage, ovarian breathing and moving sexual energy. Celine: And while being at the workshop, I was like, this is it. This is amazing. It really all felt very natural to me. And at the same time, fascinating and knew there was so much more that in that weekend, I was only just briefly touching the surface of what was possible. So that sets me on a journey to study with some of the masters like Master Mantak Chia. I went to Thailand to study with him and really this journey that started when I was 16, I've been on it all of these years - through different levels, I would say, but always wanting to learn deeper knowledge and understanding of our bodies, because I'm fascinated about we have bodies, and I want you to know, like, I want to be a master of my body. I want to know how to use this sexual energy. And I want to know what's beyond the physical. And so for me, that was this thirst for knowledge understanding and this passion and ease around sexuality. To me, it always felt like it was beautiful, natural and healing. And I still decided was a gift that I had this upbringing that I could bring that to other people to help them heal their own shame and issues around sexuality. So it wouldn't been pointed to one moment, but really to all one thing leading to another, that would be my journey. Rahi: But at such a young age at 19, to take the journey with your mom of, you know, understanding like what really is our sexual nature and how can we use our bodies to nourish and expand this life force, what an incredible influence and an opportunity. And it sounds like you just kind of like grabbed it and ran with it and try to explore, you know, all that you could with it. That's really, Kevin: I don't think your mom knew what she was getting you into at the time. Rahi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. unbeknownst to her, but wow. What a blessing. That's just really incredible. How about you, Kevin? I'm curious about your path, because I know you have a path as a martial artist, so you're always in your body and you probably had just so much.. In many ways, I think it seems to me like your influences were almost, unintentionally the influences that would naturally lead to a multi-orgasmic man. What were your influences? Kevin: Yeah. Oh, it's such a great question because my story really is just, it starts with just a curiosity. So even as a young boy, I was always curious about sexuality and much like Celine was saying where she was like, well, Hey, this, I found out this particular thing was a lie. I wonder what else? You know, isn't true that I've been told that's been my entire life. That's how I ended up with the nickname, the truth warrior. Cause I'm constantly looking under every rock to go. Where's the truth. Where's the truth. It's here somewhere. I got to find it right. So my whole life really was every girlfriend I ever had was, Hey, let's try this. You know, I don't care if they say I'm not supposed to do that, or we're not supposed to do that. Like let's just try it and see what happens. Kevin: And then just tons of exploration. And after every one of those things, it would be like, okay, what worked? What didn't, how can I do better? And, you know, I was always going, what else could I learn? How could I be better? How could I help her enjoy this more? How could I make her want to have sex more? Right. Which is more like when I say make her want, it's like giving her the kind of sex that she really wants so that she's inspired to do it more often kind of thing, you know? And so that really just sent me on a path of wanting to learn as much as I could. And so I read all kinds of books on it. I experimented with girlfriends, you know, we went to sex toy stores, we went to sex clubs. There's all kinds of funny stories to barricading anal beads and having to go fishing for them and showing up to sex clubs and the chickening out and going home. Kevin: And then, and then going back again, later on to have an amazing experience later on, I ended up becoming very close with a local tantra slash poly community here. And so through that, I ended up being lovers with several somewhat prominent tantra slash poly teachers and spent a lot of time immersed in that culture because they, a lot of them were teachers in the subject matter. And so they hung around with other teachers. And so all the big names would travel through Southern California and we would end up having them for workshops and talks and different things like that. And of course, being sort of in the inner circle, you know, the audience would go home and then we would all hang out on, on whoever was hosting them on their couch, you know, and we would just get to talk to them and hang out with them. Kevin: Or we would do private play parties with them or whatever it is. And so I got lots and lots of experience and added knowledge there. And then eventually I decided that I wanted to become a sort of counselor coach in that. And so I went out and actually sought training and did actual training at a local somewhat well-known tantra school. So all of those things really came out of my own desire to want to learn and be better. I actually really never originally planned on teaching it to anybody. I just like, I just want to know it for myself. Like when I got involved in martial arts, I didn't start learning martial arts because is someday I'm going to be a martial arts instructor someday. I'm going to teach people how to use a sword. No, I just went out and learned it. Kevin: Cause one day I was like, this is really cool. And I want to learn how to do this. And then as I got into the higher levels of martial arts, I found out that teaching is actually a requirement to start moving up into the higher black belt levels. So the teaching just came as part of it. Once you become about a first degree black belt, they really start grooming you to be a teacher. And it was the same thing here. It's like once I had done all the trainings and the workshops, and once I was just really living it, people started naturally saying, Hey, you know, can you help me with this? Can you help me produce this event that I'm doing? Can do you want to speak at this event that I'm doing? Oh, you know, you should be teaching this to other people through your own practice. And so that's how I kind of got into doing that and still, I wasn't fully embracing it until Celine and I got together. So I was doing kind of part-time on the side here and there, but then of course, with what Celine was doing, it was just so natural when we got together that this, this needed to happen. We needed to bring our talents together. We needed to teach together. We needed to take our message out there to the world. Rahi: Yeah. I mean, the two of you guys coming together, it's an alchemy where it's like, I'm trying to think of a good example. It's kind of like, you know, your favorite salad dressing. Like if, just, if there's just olive oil it's okay. And if it's just like vinegar it's okay. But like when you're together,, like you it's so good, you, you have to share it, you know, it's like, but you know, what I'm hearing in both of your stories is you're both naturally curious, you know, both of you guys took it upon yourselves to really take deep dives into different areas of learning just because you had a curiosity and I'm guessing that because you were so like both somatically embodied, like your bodies had a natural curiosity of what this was, what this would be like or what that would be like, you know? Yeah. I think which all teachers need. I feel like the sexual intimacy for couples is kind of an area where, where everything in the relationship can get magnified, you know, both on the really, you know, deep connection, bonding love side, as well as, you know, any disagreements or resentment certainly, or, you know, unexpressed emotions. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely going to say, that's why, not to single out, but poly or open relationships, that's one of the reasons why they're so difficult is because just with two people, everything can be sort of magnified. Now you bring in a third person that's magnified even more or a fourth person's magnified even more. So those relationships can be even more challenging. Celine: I also want to bring the aspect of intimacy. That intimacy is not just physical, there's multiple facets of intimacy. And in some of our courses, we talk about that a lot because there's emotional intimacy, for example, there's a spiritual intimacy. There are so many different levels that are beyond the physical. And often people focus a lot, let's say on the physical, but what's lacking in the relationship might be more that emotional connection or a purpose or something deeper that just a physical is not going to bring. And unless you address all of these different aspects of the intimacy and there's always going to be something missing. Rahi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm guessing, because I've known you guys for a couple of years now, like I remember Celine was sharing with me. I can't forget if it was, the Enneagram or numerology or something where it just like the two of you guys just line up so well that all of that alignment, whether it's in the spiritual realm, the sexual realm, you know, the mental, emotional realm really does line up. Now having been in this relationship where you guys are, you know, clearly beloveds,, has it kind of illuminated for you? Like how things were missing in past relationships? So I'm, cause I'm wondering, a lot of our listeners are in relationships and, you know, may not be able to pinpoint exactly what is off in their relationship. They're just not feeling as comfortable as they would like to. So I'm wondering if you could speak to, like, in your past relate, like now that you're in this relationship, did it make you realize what was missing in past relationships and what those might've been? Kevin: Oh yeah, for sure. So there are a lot of things where you didn't realize it was missing until you had it. But you know, the first thing I would say is that, you know, if you're, if you're in an existing relationship and you're committed to that relationship, even if you're not maybe as aligned in the stars as Celine and I are, you know, that doesn't mean that you can't find ways to make it work. And that's sort of the biggest difference. So when we're talking about, Oh, what did I realize that was missing from previous relationships? Okay. Maybe some things were missing. But what I really learned was that in some of those relationships, there were things that didn't line up. For instance, maybe we had different communication styles. Now, the way that we dealt with that was we learned tools to help us communicate. Kevin: Right. And there's tons of tools. I mean, I've had two relationships in particular where, you know, I realized that we just communicated very differently. If I said something was black, she would go, don't tell me it's black. It's very obviously white, you know, like it's like we would have these just constant miscommunications. And so we learned to use tools to help that. So things like repeating back, okay, here's what I said. Can you tell me what you heard? Right. And not making them wrong if they misheard it. Another technique I had with a partner was I used to give a lot of information and it was too much for her to process at any one time. And so then I would pull back and just give her little bits and let her process that, ask her questions and then give her another piece. And so we learned tools and strategies to make it work. Kevin: But when you get into a relationship where you feel super aligned and the communication is the same and everything is the same, you realize how much less energy you have to put in. And that was the big difference for me is I looked back at my past relationships and saw how much energy it took to make it work. And now how much easier it is. And that's when I went, Oh, wow. Okay. So what that really means is we all need to do a better job of choosing the right partners first. And then, you know, obviously not, everything's always going to be aligned and then employ strategies to help those areas that aren't in alignment. Rahi: That's great. That's a great explanation. Thanks for that. Kevin. How about you Celine? Because I know you've been married in the past and when we're younger, we don't always realize what we,, when we have more experience. Celine: You know, when I was talking about having, I had a good marriage, but I really wanted something great. And that's the reason why I left because we had a big age difference. Him and I were had 31 years. So, and I was young in my twenties, and I wanted different things. You know, there are different phases in life. And I was definitely more into the exploring outgoing phase of my life while he was more into settling, closer to retirement phase of his life. So that alone was very different, but there was something that's at the beginning of that relationship, we were talking about traveling and going through the different States in the United States. Cause I had never been to the mainland because back then we lived in Hawaii and he kept promising me. We're going to do it. And after five years it hadn't happened. Celine: So I decided that I was going to go and do it anyway. I was done putting my life on hold for somebody who wasn't ready or willing to follow through. And we had a very amicable divorce. I mean, we filed it ourselves. It was done. It was super easy. Like the whole relationship was somewhat easy and the dissolving of it too, but it was good. And I knew I wanted something greater. And some of the things that I've learned is when you are in a relationship and you fantasize about other people, or you go out to a party and still look around, what if I wonder what it would be like to have sex with that person or whatever. If I was going to be intimate with their school worker, you know, these kind of thoughts that people have them that's because you are not fully into their relationship. Celine: And it's a sign because when I got together with Kevin, I never had a thought of wanting another person. We were open at the beginning of our relationship. So it's not that we were like only in a monogamous setting. We we've explored different arrangements and structures of relationship. But what I've realized the biggest difference was for me is this little, like looking at the corner of my eyes when I went out was gone that little questioning and doubting, you know, even though you love your partner, but there's still this, whatever. I wonder if the grass is greener, he's appeared and I never had any fear. I even remember one day telling Kevin, if you were the only cock I would ever ride for the rest of my life, I'd be totally fine with that. While in previous relationships, I kept perving out. It's not the last one. You know, I mean, this one's great, but I know I want more, Rahi: \[inaudible\] Celine: Very subtle thing that unless you've experienced it, you won't really know it. And we both kind of realize that later in our life, like when we got together that little subtle, slight opening and looking that many people still keep and have, they're really, that's a sign that either you haven't fully chosen and committed to be fully in the relationship, then you have to do the work to, to decide this is it a normal in, or that, you know, deep down that it's not the best match that you can have. And it could be the relationship for now, but not forever. Kevin: And it's subtle too, because I never thought about any of those past relationships as not being in. I never consciously thought, Oh, I'm still on the lookout. But I did notice that when we got together, like I used to say, Oh, I'm such an outgoing person. And I need to go out to all the events that are happening. And then we got together and I was suddenly like, I don't really care. You know, like I used to have FOMO, Oh, there's this great event, right? Oh, I'm going to meet, Oh, you want to stay home, but we're going to miss it. You know? And then we get together and she's like, well, I don't, I don't feel good. Or whatever it is, I don't feel like going out. Let's just stay home on the couch. I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. Awesome. And then I realized afterwards why I was suddenly okay with it because I realized that yeah, I somehow in my subconscious, I knew those other relationships. Weren't the right ones. And I was still constantly out there looking. Rahi: So guys, I mean, one, I love hearing that both of your needs are being satiated in this relationship with each other, which is so beautiful. You know, when you're working with couples and it's apparent that their needs are not being fulfilled by their partner, like there are many strategies to work with that. What are some common ways that listeners can start to try to align with their partners in that sexual realm, whether it's,, a different level of libido or a different level of, I feel like there's such a lack of sex ed in this country that when you're working with couples, it's, it must be a lot of just kind of basic sex education, learning how to communicate, what you, what you need, what you desire, what your body wants. Kind of like a lot of basics. Am I, am I off, is that, is that the case? Celine: Absolutely basics all the way. Yeah. People need don't really know how their body operates. Uh, especially for women, like how to maximize the pleasure. They can feel in their body, how to direct their partner to go a certain way. For men, they sometime get lost in the vagina -land and they're like - I don't really know what's going on. And they don't know again, how to massage certain body parts. Um, one of the biggest thing is most people are very focused on destination, destination of orgasm, of an. And when they have sex is to have that, to reach that destination as fast as possible. We've flipped this around and change people's mindset. Most of our couples, they say like, so you mean basically I have to flip around everything I'm doing. I'm supposed to do the opposite of everything that I'm doing. And I'm like pretty much, yes. Celine: So we make it more about the journey, learning to enjoy the moment without having a goal in mind that it has to be a certain way, especially for women. If you take off the pressure that she has to have an orgasm, she has to react a certain way. She can enjoy what's going on in her body. For men. It's the same that if his penis isn't working exactly the way he wants, like there's other ways to still pleasure each other and create intimacy. But then the biggest part is also about acknowledging the big elephant in the room, because most people don't talk about everything. Like Kevin said, we talk about everything, but most, couples don't really tell each other what's truly going on. That maybe they don't like the way she touches him or he touches her. Maybe they want more of this or less of that. Celine: Maybe they would like, I mean, so many different scenarios and starting to being honest about what you truly want without shaming or blaming, and then working together as a team, we always say that we are team us, because we work together towards our goals and it's not like what's in it for me. And I'm going to take this all like, and then Kevin's like, Oh, what's in it for me. It's like all on my side. And we each bullying on the side, on the road and going nowhere, we both like pull in the same direction and get to what, what we want to create. Kevin: Yeah. And I would add to that, that, you know, you brought up that part about people's needs not being met. And so one of the things that we help couples understand is why it's important that everybody have their needs met and then how they can help each other meet those needs because you're right. Sometimes one person has a need. The other person doesn't have. So one person is like, Hey, I need my need met. And the other person's going on, that's not really my need. So I mean, whatever, just take care of it on your own. Right. So we have to get couples to understand that you want to make it a win-win. So when your partner's needs are met, it's going to come back favorably towards you. Right. So you can't always be thinking, Oh, it's just about your needs or just about your needs that you actually, if you want to have a successful relationship, a happy relationship, a sexy relationship, you have to work together to help meet each other's needs. And so that's a big thing that we work with. And then we get them to really think outside the box, because sometimes it seems like the needs are so incompatible that there's just no way that they can, they can come to terms with it. So then we, okay. Well, how about these other ideas here that maybe you hadn't thought of that are ways that you could get those needs met? Rahi: Mm that's great - thinking out of the box and well, one, you know, we all think we have a certain need, but that, and that need can only be fulfilled in a certain way. When in fact it can be fulfilled in a whole variety of ways and underneath that need, it may just, you know, it could be something else that the need that you think is the need may not be the real need. Kevin: Yeah. That's a whole nother thing is getting down to what are the actual real needs like the base needs, not just all the stuff up here in your head. Rahi: Right, right. But you know what you're speaking to guys, I feel like is a reflection of our society where sexuality is really not discussed openly sex ed is really absent. And so people aren't even sure what their sexual needs are much less practiced in expressing or discussing it. We get to a situation where it's like, people are speaking different languages, both body languages, as well as not knowing how to communicate those languages. Um, so like having you guys who have been so curious and exploring your bodies, your sensations, your pleasure, it's like you have more of a fuller context of what's possible and what some remedies can be. Um, so, you know, you mentioned, I want to ask you, because it seems like,, your signature courses focus on, is it sexual power and mastery and it's, it's focused on issues that mostly men are challenged with namely erection issues and premature ejaculation. I believe they're like the number one and two challenges or issues for men when it comes to sexuality. What has surprised you guys about what men in general assume is the problem when it comes to their erections or their premature ejaculation? Like, are they really way off, you know, as to what the real issue is Celine: Sometimes yes, most of the time, you know, number one, they assume something must be wrong with me. There's something wrong. I'm not good enough. And they're being really hard on themselves. And I like to remind our clients that it takes two to tango and that when it comes to your erections or to lasting, a woman, plays a big role in that too. Let me explain that to you a little bit more for our listeners are wondering like, well, how does she play a role? And when it comes to lasting in the bedroom, if there's a couple and they're making love, and the woman comes into the lovemaking with the idea of I'm exhausted, I don't really want to do this. How soon is he going to be done? I want to get it over with, she pulls on him and energetically, she's not into this. Celine: And she kind of like pulls and draws out of him and can make him come faster. And that's one way that she can play a role because she might have trained him to like, just get it over with quickly and be done so that I can go do some other things. And you know, it's not everybody like this, but I'm just giving you a situation where the woman plays a good role. When it comes to an erection. We talk a lot about the wisdom of the penis. And so when the woman, for example, holds a lot of resentment towards her man, or they have unspoken things, and she's also not really into it and his body feels it she's been as might not show up because he's, there's the wisdom, you know, where are you like actually there's, my heart is not being mad. Celine: There's, there's so many more things. So my penis can be working. And so her attitude and how she views the sex and then what she does when he's not having the erection that he wants. Let's say, if she takes it very personally, or if she's spanking, it's because I'm not beautiful enough or there's something wrong with me. So then they both really stuck in their hurt in the pain and the disappointment, and this would be how the woman can play a role. And what happens. Now I'm sure Kevin, you have things to add for the mouse perspective. Kevin: I think the biggest mistake that our male clients make is that they think that there's something physically wrong with them. And sometimes they think there's something mentally wrong, but mostly they think that there's something physically wrong with their bodies in their penis. And that's almost never the case with the clients we work with. And it becomes really obvious when, you know, it used to be the clients coming in with erectal dysfunction, where, you know, sixties and then fifties and then forties, and now they're coming in thirties and sometimes even late twenties wow. With those issues. And they're being told when they go to their doctors, Oh, here, just take this pill. Right. But what is the pill? The pills addressing a physical problem. These people in their twenties and thirties and forties, they don't have physical problems. Right. They don't realize that. So then they come to us to work with us and we're like, Oh, okay, let's peel back the layers of the onion here. Kevin: Because most likely there are emotional problems. There are mental problems. There are just poor habits or habits of training, their physical body, the wrong way, whether it's through excessive, in use or poor masturbation techniques, all of those things together are what's causing their problems. So they come in thinking, I just got a physical problem. Can you help me with this physical problem? We start peeling back the layers of the onion and go, Oh, okay. We can see that you are using too much porn. You're desensitizing yourself. We can see that your masturbation habits are training you to too quickly. We can see that you've got trauma there that are, that is preventing you from really accessing your sexuality and in a healthy and so on and so on. So that's what I see is really the big disconnect is what they think is causing the problem versus what is actually causing the problem. Rahi: That is so, so great. And I love how you guys approach it really holistically. You know, you're looking at the whole picture, all of the influences that do affect a man's a sense of safety and a sense of virility. Um, yeah. You know, you had mentioned earlier, like, I think someone mentioned how, every male at some point gets caught, self-pleasuring and it's usually, an either an embarrassing or a shaming kind of experience. And so we just learn, I mean, it's really ironic, but we learned to get it over with when we're kids, cause we don't want to get caught and that trains our bodies, to cum quickly. I just think it's one of those life ironies for boys turning into men, you know? Cause I remember the scene from Y Tu Mama Uh, it was a Mexican film. Celine: Y Tu Mama Tambien. Rahi: Yes, yes. Do you remember the scene when the two boys are lying on like, a diving board and they're having a contest as to who can ejaculate faster to Selma Hayek and you know, of course in my mind, as a somatic sex educator, I'm like, okay, there it is. That's, that's the training. Rahi: And you know, what you spoke to Celine about, it does take two to tango. And if a woman is feeling agitated or, you know, just not welcome, the man's nervous system is going to feel it. And you know, when the nervous system contracts, there's just less blood flow, there's more tension in the body. So it's going to lead to a quicker ejaculation. Celine: Yeah. And then imagine too, if she doesn't like what he's doing and she doesn't know how to verbalize it and her body tenses up cause their spin and discomfort. Cause he's not a great lover or giving her the kind of sex she wants and needs, then her body will give that information to his body. It might kill his because they'd be like, okay, like we don't want this to continue. This is not pleasurable. So it's such a viscious cycle. Like you're stuck in this real, that's never ending disappointment. Kevin: Yeah. And you know, from the guy's point of view, it actually changes as we get older. So, you know, as when you're young, you got all the time and you're like, well, all right, she's not really into it, but whatever, at least I'm having sex. Right. You can do that. But the older you get, the more important, all those other things surrounding the sex become the intimacy, the love, the fact that she's actually into it and wanting it. Right. So I noticed as I got older that, you know, if the woman wasn't really like really into it, I just really had no desire. I'd be like, you know what, if you're not into it, let's not even go there. Right. So that's, you can really see that with the older men that when the woman's role comes in, if she's not into it and she's not wanting to really participate, then it can definitely affect him. He's going to lose interest. He's gonna be like, I don't know. I used to, I used to get an erection with her and I don't know why I don't anymore. Right. It's because he's sensing that that's not there anymore. Rahi: Yeah. It goes back to the wisdom of the penis. I mean, there is, there really is. I mean, both, you know, there's the wisdom of the vagina and the wisdom of the cock. I mean, both can just incredibly intuitive. I mean, as a cock owner, I can say it's part of,, I mean, it's like an intuitive survival thing. It's like, I don't want to enter an unfriendly territory. It's just, it's uncanny. It's almost like my cock has an intelligence far greater than this up here, because it knows before this knows sometimes, you know? But you know, that's really speaks to the wisdom of our genitalia can pick up the unconscious intentions of our partner, you know, whether you're married or dating to really get clear on understanding, the safety of the entire terrain, both emotionally, you know, hopefully physically it's clear, but emotionally and energetically as well. What has been the most kind of joyous things that you've seen in working with men and with couples, because I'm sure there's been, I'm sure it's what, you know, gets you very excited about working and being in this field. Well, I'd love to hear some stories of just of joy and unexpected discoveries with your clients, Celine: There are so many here, so we can be there forever. But some of the things that surprised me were okay, some there was a man I worked with several years ago and after working with me, he stopped work. he stopped drinking. And to him, he realized that he was using alcohol to get more feeling - to numb out, and having this new connection with himself, he didn't need to use alcohol anymore. And that was fascinating. Another client who totally changed his career after feeling the connection with his body, he felt so empowered that he decided to quit working for the hospital and created his own private practice and totally reinvented himself. And he was in his late fifties. You know, it's like, not really when you're thinking people would do that. Wow. never a couple of clients. They had been together many years and they had been trying to conceive for a long time with no success. Celine: And that kind of had started to erode at their sex life. So they started working with me and within a few months of working with me, they conceived. And then, you know, like nine months later, I got an email with cute picture of their baby. And, he was thanking me. They cause it really helped them recreate their heart connection and, and finding the fun and sex and then letting go of that, help them conceive. The biggest thing we see too, is the confidence piece at one of our latest client was he had stopped dating because he had, problem with his erections. And he was too embarrassed. And after three months of like totally changing his mindset, his habits, and now he's like dating and he feels comfortable. And he has tools when he's been, as doesn't work the way he wants. Celine: Now, he's not freaking out. And he knows what to do. , These are really, for me, like some of the biggest moment there's even been couples who decided to separate, but separate, beautifully. And so rather than like saying in misery, they find a way to connect the stay. So they were not on the same path anymore and they gracefully separated. And what people might think, Oh, it's always all rosy, but it actually was a success story because they were deciding then that they were holding each other back and that in letting each other go, they could find that perfect match. Kevin: Yeah. Not every couple is a good match. Some couples together and torture each other for years. So sometimes it's better off, but I would add to your list too. One of the things that I love seeing is people break out of patterns that have controlled their lives for sometimes decades. Like Celinel You mentioned earlier, we see this quite a lot. People who learn things when they were literally in the single digits old, right. You know, five, six, nine, whatever, and they're still living their lives. According to that thing, that pattern that habit, whether it's how they were masturbating or the shame they had, cause they got caught masturbating or you know, any of that stuff. And then they can come work with you. And finally break that. Finally, break it finally shift and do something different to me. That is amazing. Rahi: That is amazing. That is amazing. You know, all of those stories that you shared, it really highlights how, you know, people assume that their sexual issues have to do with sex. But I feel like they're really, I mean, sexuality is almost a window or like a gateway to addressing real core life issues. You know, like you were saying, Kevin, that can go all the way back to childhood. So it's really, really profound. I mean, I really do feel like our sexuality like is, kind of a sacred window where everything in life shows up, you know, everything gets magnified or, or, you know, our life issues get, get an opportunity to get resolved. Kevin: Um, yeah, I would say that the thing is, is our sexuality is not separate from the rest of us, right? So we think, Oh, our careers over here and our relationships over here and sexuality over here and they're all neatly in their little separate containers. No, that's not the way it works. And that's why when you take something that is so fundamental to who we are as human beings, which is our sexuality and you fix it, you improve it, you make it better. You see the ripples of that go across the whole rest of their life. And all of a sudden they get a promotion at work or they get a raise or some other friendship or relationship with their child that wasn't working suddenly starts working. Celine: Oh, they find their mate. I mean, it's all connected. Rahi: Connected. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like what you're speaking to Kevin is like, when we allow a greater voltage of energy into our lives, like in the form of pleasure or goodness, like it just expands our containers capacity to receive good energy, whether that's a promotion or better relationships, the ripple happens, you know, in every area of the life. And it's almost like this, a sacred vortex where everything is interconnected. Guys. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really, really enjoyed our conversation and I'll have the links to, well here, here's a question. So, you know, online, I know you guys have your online courses and you work, personally with couples, with men and for men with women in 2021, which is when this podcast is airing, are there going to be any new offerings or anything? Oh, and Celine and Kevin have a fabulous podcast at the love lab podcast, um, over a hundred episodes and going strong. Um, how can people either work with you or check you out? Celine: The best is to go to Celine Remy.com. It's C E L I N E R E M Y.com. And you can find everything that we do there, on this one platform. So our podcast, our YouTube channel, our couples coaching that Kevin and I do together, our relationship synergy program, and then offerings that we do for men and women, and then our courses that are power and mastery, power and mastery.com. But everything is@celineremy.com. We also have the passion vault, which is our free library with everything that we've done for over several years, like videos and eBooks and tips to help you have better intimacy, greater sex. So yeah, sign up. It's totally free to get access to the passion vault. Kevin: And if you do sign up to get access to the passion vault, you will get our regular emails where we give you more tips and all kinds of awesomeness. Good. It's all free. Like we're just giving you free value and information all the time through email. So it's really worth being on there. Rahi: Yeah, no, it's a phenomenal resource. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Celine: And I was saying in anything you really, 21 is a year we focusing on working with couples. So if you are a couple who love each other and everything's great, but the sex and, you know, there's something more and you would love to get some support. We really want to offer you the opportunity to work with both of us, because this is really unique. You would get both Kevin and I, a masculine and feminine. I look on your relationship, you have the dynamic of your own coupleship. So we're very excited about this offering and we really recommend you check it out if that's you Rahi: Sounds great, guys, thank you so much for being with us today. And yeah, it's always great to see you. Celine: Thank you. Right here was a pleasure. Thanks for having us. Always good to see you. Rahi: Notice how this episode is landing in your body. If you're single, are there parts of your body that have needs wanting to be clarified, voiced and explored either with yourself or with a trusted partner, if you're in partnership, are there parts of your body that feel neglected, avoided, or disregarded that want attention? And if so, how might you voice this to your partner honoring your needs and inquiring about theirs? And if you're neither single, nor in partnership, what is it that your body wants to say, receive and experience and how might you support your body to receive and experience exactly what it wants next week, we explore the field of somatic sex education and the various programs in North America with somatic sex educator, trainer, and co-founder of the Institute for Somatic Sex Education. Dr. Liam Snowden. Until next time take good care. [ Scroll back to top ](#) #### Get Podcast Updates Enter your name and email address below to receive insights behind each Organic Sexuality Podcast episode and the ebook Organic Sexuality, 5 Elements to Restoring Natural Pleasure And Sexual Wholeness powered by [ ](https://fusebox.fm) *Featured Episodes* With some of the wisest Somatic Sexologists in the Field. 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We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rahi_Chun2-150x150.jpg "Rahi_Chun2 | Rahi Chun") ##### **Rahi Chun** Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and their authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EBookTeaser-1.jpg "EBookTeaser-1 | Rahi Chun") #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) **Categories:** Podcast --- ## Pages ### [Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-armoring Specialist](https://rahichun.com/) **Published:** September 15, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** Somatic Sexual Wholeness is a unique blend of developmental psychology, sexological bodywork, and inner pelvic release to re-store and expand the safe, natural, and ecstatic presence in your body and its full capacity for intimacy, pleasure, and wholeness. A gentle facilitation in the letting go of contractions and holding patterns (physiological, emotional, mental or energetic) in the way of your body’s natural pulsation, Somatic Sexual Wholeness is a mind-body-spirit invitation to return home and inhabit the health, wisdom, and natural vibrancy of your whole being. **Content:** ## *Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-armoring Specialist* ## 30+ Years of Somatic Study & Practice ## 10+ Years of Sexological Bodywork Sessions ## 400+ Clients ## 150+ Students of Genital De-armoring ## 20+ Countries of Trained Practitioners ## 4+ Transformational Online Courses [About Rahi](/about) ## Honoring Your Body’s Organic Nature for Intimacy, Pleasure, and Wholeness. ![somatic sexual healing sacred feminine art](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/yoni-richard_morrow-300px.jpg "Richard Morrow Yoni Art | Rahi Chun") **Somatic Sexual Wholeness™** is an integrative healing and educational approach that blends Mindful Inquiry, Developmental Psychology, NeuroAffective Touch®, Sexological Bodywork, and Genital De-Armoring. **This unique combination restores the body’s natural capacity for safety, presence, and ecstasy—unlocking deeper intimacy, expanded pleasure, and embodied wholeness.** Designed ***for[ individuals](/individual-sessions) and [couples](/couple-sessions/)***, Somatic Sexual Wholeness offers in-person sessions, experiential [trainings,](/trainings/) and couples’ retreats that empower you to **reconnect with your erotic intelligence and embodied vitality**. It’s also a professional pathway ***for sex educators, therapists, and healing practitioners*** seeking expert mentorship, supervision, and certification in somatic sexual healing. [Work with Rahi](https://rahichun.com/contact/) ![genital de-armoring somatic healing art](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Richard-Morrow_Yoni2-300px.jpg "Richard Morrow Yoni Art | Rahi Chun") ## What I Offer & Who It's For ### *Explore the Somatic Arc* The Somatic Arc – private journeys seeking somatic sexual healing, the restoration of safe, embodied pleasure, and expanding capacity for aliveness & connection. Available in Los Angeles or as immersive retreats for out-of-area clients. [→ Begin the Journey](https://rahichun.com/individual-sessions/) ### *Online Courses* For Singles seeking to Reclaim Your Body’s Pleasure, Lovers seeking Divine Union, Practitioners seeking to Master Genital De-armoring, and the curious seeking adventurous new realms of embodiment and expansion. [→ Explore the Courses](https://rahichun.com/courses/) ### *Couples’ Intensives & Retreats* For lovers seeking the relational and erotic skills to deepen embodied intimacy and pleasure-based healing either live in Los Angeles or online, in a private or small group retreat setting. [→ Explore Containers for Couples](https://divineunionforlovers.com/) ### *Professional Training* For sexuality professionals seeking training & supervision in the practice and art of genital de-armoring. Practitioner certification in genital de-armoring – one of the only programs of its kind globally. [→ Explore Certification in Genital De-armoring](https://rahichun.com/trainings/) ## Client's Experiences [](#) **Dr. Jennifer Lang**, OB/Gyn **Dr. Lang** shares the importance of an integrative holistic approach to sexual health and Somatic Sexual Wholeness. [](#) **Dr. Birch Story** Doctor of Oriental Medicine **Dr. Story** shares her journey of re-inhabiting her body and pleasure after healing from cervical cancer. [](#) **Meredith White,** Graduate of »The 3 Keys« **Meredith** shares her experience of the online course, community and teachings. [Hear from more clients](https://rahichun.com/clients-experiences/) ### As Recommended By … ![somatic sex educator recommended by OB GYN physicians Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/9.png "| Rahi Chun") [**Dr. Prudence Hall** ](https://www.thehallcenter.com/our-philosophy) Gynecologist and Founder, The Hall Center ![somatic sex educator recommended by OB GYN Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/12.png "| Rahi Chun") [**Dr. Jennifer Lang**,](< https://jenniferlangmd.com/meet-dr-jennifer-lang>) OB/GYN, Gynecologic Oncologist, Author of “Consent” ![somatic sex educator recommended by Neuroaffective Touch Founder Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/16.png "16 | Rahi Chun") [**Dr. Aline LaPierre,**](https://neuroaffectivetouch.com) PsyD, Creator of NeuroAffective Touch, Author of “Healing Developmental Trauma” ![somatic sex educator recommended by Urologist Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/11.png "| Rahi Chun") [**Dr. Eric B. Robins**](http://drericrobins.com), Urologist, Mind/Body Medicine Expert ![somatic sex educator recommended by psychologist Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/14.png "| Rahi Chun") **[Dr. Daniel Sadigh](http://wheelofwellbeing.com/doctor/daniel-sadigh-6/)**, PsyD, MFT and Founder, The Wheel of Well Being ![somatic sex educator recommended by Naturopath Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/13.png "| Rahi Chun") **[Dr. Guy Citrin,](https://citrinwellness.com/about/)** ND – Naturopathic Doctor, Founder of Citrin Wellness ![somatic sex educator recommended by Psychologist Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/10.png "16 | Rahi Chun") **[Dr. Nicki J. Monti](http://www.stucknomore.com/dr_nicki_bio.php)**, PsyD, MFT and Author of “Our Love Matters” ![somatic sex educator recommended by chiropractor Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/15.png "| Rahi Chun") [**Dr.** **Suzanne Schiller**](http://suzanneschiller.com), DC, Holistic Women’s Health Chiropractor ### In the Media … ![Your Body Remembers Pleasure podcast Rahi Chun somatic sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ## Your Body Remembers Pleasure Podcast by Rahi Chun Interviews, wisdom and practices for organic sexual health, pleasure and wholeness. [Listen Here](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) ### Rahi also appears on … ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Podcast-5.3.png)### Sex is Medicine ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/unnamed.jpg)### The Embodied Psyche ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/48274910_2422739187740897_8170123756681822208_n.jpg)### The MagaMama Podcast ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Violet-Langes-Pleasure-Path-300x300.jpg)### Pleasure Path ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/download-1.png)### The Radical Healing Power Of Somatic Sexual Wholeness Therapy ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/footer-logo.png)### The Unconventional Therapy that got me Back in the Sex Game. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/d3be1c57-9b51-4bfe-81f1-9f0b91d1c795-1054614379._SX768_SY768_BL0_QL100__UX716_FMwebp_QL85_.webp)### Wild and Sublime ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/fd3f1faaaa8bae40f2ae6000b1050d4d.webp)### The Brilliant Body Podcast ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/GardenOfBecomingPodcast.jpg)### Garden of Becoming Podcast ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/TheEroticLiberationPodcast.jpg)### The Erotic Liberation Podcast ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/artworks-8mASBGpWm2LnZSNm-y5kM4g-t3000x3000-scaled.jpg)### SexEd For the Modern Bed ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/NakedHeartPodcastwithNadineHamilton.webp)### The Sensuous ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/ModernAnarchywithDrNicole.jpg)### Modern Anarchy ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/PermissionToBeEnchantingwithClareSente.png)### Permission to Be Enchanting ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/unnamed.jpg)### Intimate Conversations ##### with Allana Pratt ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/safe_image.png)### The Love Lab Podcast ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Yoni-Art-FB.jpeg)### Yoni Art Fest ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) --- ### [Individual Sessions](https://rahichun.com/individual-sessions/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## The Somatic Arc for INdividuAls ## Consciousness | Safety | Presence *These are the pillars of every session. Your invitation to come home to your body — to restore aliveness, deepen presence, and expand into wholeness.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/foundation.jpg "foundation | Rahi Chun") **Consciousness** refers to the awareness that we are sacred vessels here to serve the creative force that flows through us and as us. **Safety** provides a sacred space for pleasure, intimacy and wholeness to flow naturally, and when experienced by both the conscious and sub-conscious, the body and being can surrender into its natural state of inner peace, bliss, and discovery. **Presence,** within the facilitator and within the client, in receiving and being with their own sensations & feelings, invites a tuning in to how their life force energy wants to be facilitated, restoring an organic flow, vitality and well being. *For 30 years I’ve engaged in deep spiritual and transformational work. Body~Mind~Spirit. Yet my sessions with Rahi led me to releasing core wounds keeping me from experiencing both subtle and profound sensual and sexual pleasures. Now I experience more sensation, aliveness, and joy in love-making, and feel lighter and more pleasure and wholeness in my entire body. Rahi has the ability to hold an incredibly safe container with honesty, integrity and truth. It is a powerful process and time for women to free ourselves from anything that is holding back pleasure and personal power.* Andrea HylenFounder and Executive Director Heal My Voice [Begin Your Journey ](#journeys) ## What We Explore ## Your Path Is Guided By Your Body's Wisdom ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Intake1.jpg "Intake | Rahi Chun") #### Mindful Inquiry & Embodied Presence We engage mind and body together to explore the origins of your sexual identity, patterns, and responses – letting what’s ready to emerge guide the session. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Rose_Pulsation.jpg "Sessions_Rose_Pulsation | Rahi Chun") #### NeuroAffective Touch From there, touch expands your presence and capacity to inhabit your body, listening for how it wants to be supported and nourished in reclaiming its voice and autonomy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Liquid_Massage.jpg "Sessions_Liquid_Massage | Rahi Chun") #### Erotic Integrity & Consent On this ground, Sexological Bodywork™ and Full Body Active Consent build “touch fluency” – feeling, naming, and asking for the kind and quality of touch that truly nourishes you. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Splash-Release2.jpg "Sessions_Splash-Release2 | Rahi Chun") #### Genital De-armoring & Inner Pelvic Freedom Built on that foundation, we release the muscular and emotional holding stored in the pelvic bowl, expanding your capacity for embodied sexual energy, pleasure, and wholeness. ![Sunset over a calm ocean with the sun reflecting a bright path on the water.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/integration.jpg "integration | Rahi Chun") #### Integration Integration begins as the session completes and continues over the following days and weeks, so the expansion becomes not a memory but a new embodiment and agency. Having been a Dr. of Oriental Medicine for 20 years, as well as personally navigating and taming cervical cancer for the last 8, I have done it all. Nothing has been as profound however, as the healing experiences I have had working with Rahi Chun. I have experienced a fundamental resurrection. My whole pelvic floor has come alive, more than it ever was, even before the 6 surgeries. Frozen traumatic energy has been liberated and transmuted, fueling enormous amounts of motivation, confidence, stamina, and creativity…. The transformations have been rapid and the change sustained. Dr. Birch StorySanta Monica, CA [Begin Your Journey](#journeys) ## The Benefits ## The Somatic Arc of Transformation ### Releasing | Re-patterning | Realizing | Receiving ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/releasing.jpg "releasing | Rahi Chun") ### *Releasing* ##### *Let go of stored trauma, numbness, or emotional contraction. Breathe into space, presence, and flow.* Our body holds unintegrated memories, tensions, and traumas in the tissues and fascia of our musculature and nervous system, affecting current behaviors. These contractions may appear as tension, discomfort, numbness, or pain in the pelvic bowl, or as boredom, avoidance, or frustration during intimacy. Through breath, sound, intentional touch, and presence, we gently release these contractions and integrate their related emotions, restoring the healthy flow of sexual life force energy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/repatterning.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### Re-Patterning ##### Replace outdated arousal patterns with new, safe, pleasure-filled associations through guided somatic experience. Sexual patterns often form early in life and stay with us into adulthood. Whether shaped by innocence, violation, or misinterpretation, these patterns influence our sexual journey and the experiences we unconsciously attract. Arousal states release healing chemicals in the brain. Through guided somatic work, unhealthy patterns can be safely replaced with new, healthy associations within body, mind, and spirit. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/realizing.jpg "realizing | Rahi Chun") ### *Realizing* ##### *Discover untapped regions of pleasure and expand into your full erotic capacity with awareness and sacred practice.* Most people haven’t fully explored their body’s pleasure potential. Women typically need 20-45 minutes of arousal to access the full sensitivity of the yoni, yet the average intimate session lasts only 5-7 minutes. Due to cultural shame, many men haven’t discovered the healing and pleasure potential of prostate exploration. A lack of education about anatomy and arousal keeps many erogenous zones unexperienced. In sessions devoted to receiving, you’ll discover new practices and sensory connections designed for extended pleasure, health, and wholeness. Clients report shifts in self-confidence, body image, sexual attraction, and embodied joy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/receiving.jpg "receiving | Rahi Chun") ### Receiving ##### Receive deeply. From your own source. From life. From your sacred erotic self. Anchor creative flow, heart-aligned intimacy, and embodied sovereignty. Releasing, re-patterning, and realizing lead to the most transformational practice: Receiving. By receiving the pleasures, sensations, and intuitive wisdom from your inner divinity, you expand your connection to innate intuition, creative flow, embodied power, and heart-felt desires. As wholeness deepens between heart, sex, and spirit, clients experience this integration reflected in their outer lives through greater joy, aligned success, and more loving relationships—both personally and professionally. ### These four transformations – Releasing, Re-Patterning, Realizing, and Receiving – are the heart of »The Somatic Art« Journeys. **[• Homecoming](#homecoming)** begins with [*Realizing*](#realizing) and [*Receiving*](#receiving); **[• Reclamation](#reclamation)** continues with [*Releasing*](#releasing) and [*Re-Patterning*](#repatterning); [• **Embodied Wholeness** ](#wholeness)moves through all four, from the root. ## Your Journey ## The Somatic Arc **The Somatic Arc offers three distinct journeys –** not tiers of the same work, but different orders of transformation. **Each is a sustained, supported container including**: hands-on sessions, an online course to re-condition the new imprints, and my Zoom and email support before, between, and after your sessions – where the re-patterning integrates into new pathways. Whether your sessions unfold **over weeks or in a concentrated immersion** here in Los Angeles, this is where the change takes root.  ### Homecoming #### 1–2 Month Journey **Awakening work, not trauma work.** Coming home to the agency, sovereignty, and full erotic potential of your body: attuning to your desire, giving voice to and receiving it, knowing the distinct pleasures of each erogenous zone, and composing them into embodied eroticism. Includes the course [*“Reclaiming Your Pleasure”*](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) to expand the experiences across your **3 hands-on sessions.**  ### Reclamation #### 2–4 Month Journey **Re-inhabiting the erotic life force that past trauma made unavailable.** Genital de-armoring, and the rewiring of arousal and pleasure with safety and agency, so what became distant returns to full residence. Includes the course [*“The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring”*](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) to expand on the practices across your **5 hands-on sessions**.  ### Embodied Wholeness #### 4–6 Month Journey **A different order of work – foundational and developmental, reaching all the way to the roots.** Rebuilding the imprints of pleasure, attachment, and intimacy from the ground up, from childhood on: tending the early relational ruptures never resolved, and building a genuinely new framework for touch and closeness. Includes [»](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/)*[Reclaiming Your Pleasure«](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) & [»The 3 Keys to Genital Dearmoring«](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/)* to expand on the transformations across your **7 hands-on sessions**. ### Choosing The Path That Is Right for You *The tier of your journey sets the size of your container and its investment; the work within it is shaped entirely around you. These time spans are rhythms, not deadlines – your body sets the pace.* *The specific journey and investment are discussed with you in your consultation, where we co-create a container to meet the needs and parameters of your deepest healing and greatest expansion.* [![Poster for 'The Somatic Arc: Your Tailored Journey' with three gold flame-like symbols on a pink‑red gradient background, by Rahi Chun, Somatic Sex Educator & De-armoring Specialist.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/TSA-IpadCover.png "Download »The Somatic Arc« | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Rahi-Chun_The-Somatic-Arc.pdf) [Download »The Somatic Arc« Guide](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Rahi-Chun_The-Somatic-Arc.pdf) [Begin with a consultation](/contact) ## Start With a Single Session If you’re not yet ready to commit to a full journey, you’re welcome to begin with a single session of 3-5 hrs in length, with a complete intake and after-care for integration (from $2,500). This is a way to feel this work in your own body and let your next step reveal itself. Most who begin this way choose to continue into a journey, because the body can sense the expansion available when opening to new capacities for life force. **A single session is a doorway; the Arc is the path.** [Inquire A SESSION](/contact) ## Frequently Asked Questions ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/W_Drawing_freeflow_400px.jpg "W_Drawing_freeflow_400px | Rahi Chun") ##### Is this for me? **The truest answer comes from within—I encourage you to pause and listen…** That said, my clients span a beautiful spectrum: different ages, backgrounds, relationship structures, and experiences with their bodies and sexuality. Some come with deep wounds to heal, others to reclaim pleasure that’s been lost or never fully discovered. Some seek to understand their sexual energy as a path to personal power, while others long to transform shame into sacred embodiment. **What they share :** a clear inner knowing that they’re ready for this work, and a deep resonance with the invitation to expand and explore empowerment via sexual energy. If something in you says “yes” as you read these words—even if that yes feels vulnerable or uncertain—that’s your answer. ##### What is “empowerment via sexual energy”? **Sexual energy is your life force—the vital current that animates everything from creativity to connection, from confidence to deep pleasure.** Empowerment through sexual energy means: - **Removing the blocks** that keep this energy locked, diminished, or distorted (shame, trauma, conditioning, armoring) - **Reclaiming full access** to your body’s natural aliveness, sensation, and wisdom - **Learning to circulate and expand** this energy consciously, so it nourishes your entire life—not just your sexuality **In practice, this looks like:** During sessions, you practice the art of *receiving*—being present to the sensations, emotions, and intuitive wisdom that arise when your body feels safe, seen, and honored. You’re not performing or achieving anything. You’re listening. Feeling. Allowing your own inner knowing to guide what wants to move, release, or awaken. Everything you seek—pleasure, vitality, wholeness, ecstatic aliveness—already lives within you. This work simply clears the path so you can access it fully and let it inform how you show up in your relationships, your creativity, your sense of self. ##### Why would a female-bodied person seek these services from a male-bodied practitioner? **First and foremost: trust your body’s knowing about safety.** Whether you choose to work with a female or male practitioner, that felt sense of trust is non-negotiable. It’s the foundation for everything. **That said, many female clients find profound healing in working with a male practitioner they trust.** Here’s why: If your past experiences with masculine energy have been unsafe, disrespecting, boundary-violating, or objectifying—whether through sexual trauma, dismissive partners, or simply living in a culture that conditions women to override their “no”—**working with safe, attuned masculine presence can rewire those associations at a nervous system level.** When you experience a man who: - Honors your boundaries as sacred - Tracks your nervous system with deep presence - Celebrates your empowerment rather than feeling threatened by it - Holds space for your pleasure without agenda or expectation …your body begins to learn: *“Oh. This is what safe masculine energy feels like.”* That new reference point doesn’t just live in the session room. It changes how you move through the world—what you tolerate, what you expect, what you know you deserve. **This isn’t about needing male validation. It’s about reclaiming your right to safe, sacred relationship with masculine energy on your terms.** ##### Do you work with men? Yes. One of the reasons I was drawn to the Sexological Bodyworker training at The Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality was in order to with all genders and self-identified sexualities. Our universal life force energy is expressed through all forms, genders and orientations. ##### What if I'm married or in committed partnership? **Wonderful. This work honors and supports your partnership.** I’m here to help you access deeper intimacy *within* your relationship. Your partner is welcome to be involved in whatever way feels right for all parties, from simply being informed and supportive, to attending sessions together, to receiving their own individual work. **Here’s the paradox many couples face:** The very person you love most can inadvertently trigger the wounds, patterns, or nervous system responses you’re trying to heal. Your partner’s touch might activate old shame. Their desire might echo past pressure. Their presence might make it harder to access what your body actually needs, because you’re managing their experience alongside your own. **This is where skilled, neutral support becomes invaluable.** Working with a practitioner who has no personal stake in your dynamic creates space to: - Release armoring and conditioning without fear of judgment or performance - Discover what your body actually wants when you’re not caretaking someone else’s feelings - Develop new somatic patterns and capacities that you can then *bring back* to your partnership **If you are partnered and seeking to expand together.** Deepening your erotic connection *together* is the very heart of **Divine Union For Lovers** – the sacred space my partner Ariel and I hold for couples and lovers. Here we teach relational sexual attunement: the skills, practices, and presence that awaken expansive, ecstatic lovemaking and ever-deepening pleasure between you. Your individual work here restores your wholeness; Divine Union weaves that wholeness into the two of you as one. **[Explore Divine Union For Lovers →](https://divineunionforlovers.com/)** **The goal is always the same: you, more whole. Your partnership, more alive.** ##### How are the three journeys different? They are three distinct orders of work, not tiers of the same one: Homecoming is awakening – coming home to your body’s agency and full erotic potential, learning its desires and how to give them voice. It is expansive, not trauma-focused. Reclamation is healing – re-inhabiting the erotic life force that past trauma made unavailable, through genital de-armoring and the rewiring of arousal and pleasure with safety and agency. Embodied Wholeness is foundational – rebuilding the imprints of pleasure, attachment, and intimacy from the ground up, from childhood on, tending the early relational ruptures that shape how you attach and receive. A deeper, developmental order of transformation that reaches all the way to the roots. In our consultation, we’ll feel together which one your body is wanting and feels ready for. ##### I'm traveling to LA - do the Journeys apply to me? Absolutely – and more than half of my clients are exactly you. You can receive your journey’s sessions in a concentrated immersion of a few days to two weeks. What makes an immersion *last* is everything around it: the online course and our Zoom and email connection prepare your body beforehand and, most importantly, accompany you home afterward, so the shifts integrate into your daily life instead of fading. For travelers, that support isn’t extra – it’s essential. **What makes immersions uniquely powerful:** - Your system can drop into deeper states when you’re not returning to routine distractions between sessions - Multiple modalities can build and be woven together seamlessly across days - Between sessions, Santa Monica offers beautiful beaches, hiking trails, and a rich wellness community -space to integrate, journal, rest, and let the work settle into your body for a unique retreat experience. ##### How many sessions should I plan for? Most transformation unfolds over a journey of three to seven sessions – which is why the heart of my work is now offered as the Somatic Arc. Homecoming typically spans 3 sessions over a period of one to two months and awakens erotic wellness; Reclamation unfolds over 5 sessions during a two to four month period to resolve trauma and armoring; Embodied Wholeness integrates over 7 sessions spanning four to six months of spacious, comprehensive work. Sessions can unfold weekly, bi-monthly, or in a concentrated immersion for those traveling to Los Angeles. These are gentle rhythms, not deadlines – your body sets the pace. For those coming in from out of town for immersives, we attune to what your body feels safe and ready for day to day and utilize the preparation and integration periods to ensure your new-found embodiment normalizes into your life at home. If you’d like to begin with a single session before committing to a journey, you’re warmly welcome to. ##### What are your rates? A single session begins at $2,500, reflecting its depth and length (sessions run three to five hours) and involves a complete intake of your developmental influences, history of patterns and current sexual embodiment, as well as supportive after-care. The Somatic Arc journeys are a meaningful investment in a complete transformation, beginning at $6,666 – and together, we discuss your history, intentions, desires and what kind of container would best support your growth – and from there, the availability, support and investment involved. Payment plans are available, and I hold a small number of reduced-fee places each year. ##### How can I best prepare myself for a session? Having a clear intention as a guiding light and listening to your body’s innate wisdom usually leads to the greatest transformation for clients. Attachment to a goal can often interfere with the natural flow of this process as this can impose an outside agenda (even if it’s from your own mind) onto the body. It’s common for clients to share that their expansion in embodied pleasure, wholeness and transformative healing far exceeded what they first thought was possible. As in all of life, what is possible is often beyond our imagination. --- ### [Contact](https://rahichun.com/contact/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## CoNtAct & InQuiRY ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Logo-V2.png "SSW Logo | Rahi Chun") # *Rahi Chun* #### *Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* My practice is located in **Los Angeles**, California. - [Follow](https://www.facebook.com/rahi.chun "Follow on Facebook") - [Follow](https://www.instagram.com/rahichun "Follow on Instagram") [](mailto:rahi@somaticsexualwholeness.com) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/stock-photo-lotus-vietnam-s-national-flower-756841271.jpg "stock-photo-lotus-vietnam-s-national-flower-75684127 | Rahi Chun") # Ways to Begin Most clients begin with a **»Somatic Arc«** **Journey** – *[Homecoming](https://rahichun.com/individual-sessions/#homecoming) (3 sessions), [Reclamation ](https://rahichun.com/individual-sessions/#reclamation)(5),* or *[Embodied Wholeness](https://rahichun.com/individual-sessions/#wholeness) (7)*. Each interweaves hands-on sessions with one or both of the **online courses**, [*Reclaiming Your Pleasure*](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) and [*The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring*](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/), so you have guided video practices to expand & deepen new intimacy patterns at home – in addition to tailored guidance before, between, and after our in-person time together. ***Find all detailed information in »The Somatic Arc« Guide*** [Download »The Somatic Arc« Guide](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Rahi-Chun_The-Somatic-Arc.pdf) If you’d like to feel the work first, you’re welcome to begin with a **single session** (from $2,500) which are 3-5 hrs and includes a complete intake, in addition to after-care. Either way, we start with a **free, confidential consultation**. Together we’ll look at your history, your intentions, and your current relationship with your body – and from there, feel for how best to support your path. ***Please fill out the form below to schedule your consultation.*** # Intake Form Name Email Address What is your intention in inquiring about receiving sessions? Please share about your current lifestyle and self-care practices? Who were you referred by or how did you discover Somatic Sexual Wholeness? Is there anything else you would like to share or questions you would like to ask? Please provide several days and times you are available for a complementary phone consultation and the best number to reach you. Informed Consent & Agreements Informed Consent & Agreements I understand that Somatic Sexual Wholeness involves a complementary series of health and wellness modalities designed to expand my understanding and experience of embodied sexual health, wholeness, and well being. I understand that all touch during the session will be given only by my permission and is intended for the relaxation of my nervous system, awakening my body’s energy channels, and releasing any stored contractions. I understand that during all parts of all sessions, the facilitator will remain fully clothed at all times and all touch will be uni-directional from facilitator to client. I understand that Somatic Sexual Wholeness practitioners do not act as surrogate partners. I represent and warrant that I am physically fit and I have no medical condition which would prevent my full participation in the session, and I will update practitioners on any changes in my health status. I understand that Somatic Sexual Wholeness is not psychotherapy or medical treatment. I will consult my medical doctor if I have any question about my physical or mental health. Printing my name below confirms I have read, understand and agree to the above statements. Date Signature (please Initial) 14 + 10 = Submit Inquiry ##### Legal Notice: With reference to California Code section 647(b) and CALCRIM Nos. 1153 to 1155, the services discussed herein do not in any way include or relate to either (1) engagement in any lewd act for money or other consideration, or (2) solicitation, offer, or agreement to engage in any lewd act for money or other consideration. SB577 : Complimentary healing arts such as Somatic Sex Therapy and Sexological Bodywork do not require licensing by the state of California. --- ### [Podcast](https://rahichun.com/podcast/) **Published:** February 3, 2021 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Excerpt:** Welcome to Your Body Remembers Pleasure — a somatic sexual healing podcast dedicated to restoring pleasure, healing trauma, and awakening the body's erotic intelligence. **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Podcast-RZ-scaled.jpg "OrganisSexuality-PodcastCover | Rahi Chun") [Subscribe Now](#subscribe) ## Your Body Remembers Pleasure Somatic Sexual Healing Podcast by Rahi Chun Interviews, wisdom and practices for organic sexual health, pleasure and wholeness. *formerly »Organic Sexuality« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/3c802cdb63f9155aa63941ac8514cc6b.jpg "3c802cdb63f9155aa63941ac8514cc6b | Rahi Chun")](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/organic-sexuality/id1551063056?itsct=podcast_box&itscg=30200) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/listen-on-spotify-logo-4.png "listen-on-spotify-logo-4 | Rahi Chun")](https://open.spotify.com/show/0q74FEK2C5ZWfCttOEKJVl) Share with a friend [Tweet](https://twitter.com/share) ### *About this Somatic Sexual Healing Podcast* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our organic sexual wholeness. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners worldwide who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of the body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. ### *Rahi Chun* ##### *Creator: Somatic Sexual Wholeness* Rahi is fascinated by the intersection of sexuality, psychology, spirituality and our authentic embodiment. Based in Los Angeles, he is an avid traveler and loves exploring cultures, practices of embodiment, and healing modalities around the world. [BROWSE ALL EPISODES](#episodes) ## Explore the Podcast by Pillar *Explore the core pillars of somatic sexual healing, intimacy, and embodied awakening. Each pathway offers a deeper dive into the conversations, practices, and teachings at the heart of this work.* - [SOMATIC SEXUAL HEALING](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) - [GENITAL DE-ARMORING](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) - [INTIMACY & RELATIONSHIPS](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) - [MEN’S SEXUALITY](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) - [EROTIC EMBODIMENT](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) ##### [Somatic Sexual Healing](/somatic-sexual-healing) Restore sensation, safety, and pleasure by working directly with the nervous system and the body’s stored patterns of trauma. [→ Explore this pillar](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) ##### [Genital De-armoring, Pelvic Healing & Pleasure Expansion](/genital-de-armoring) Release tension, numbness, pain, and conditioning in the genitals while restoring sensitivity, pelvic vitality, and authentic pleasure. [→ Explore this pillar](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) ##### [Intimacy & Conscious Relationships](/intimacy-conscious-relationships) Develop communication, trust, and emotional attunement to create deeper intimacy, connection, and relational fulfillment. [→ Explore this pillar](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) ##### [Men's Sexuality & Sexual Health](/mens-sexuality) Address performance pressure, erectile challenges, and disconnection to reclaim grounded, embodied sexual confidence and vitality. [→ Explore this pillar](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) ##### [Erotic Energy, Embodiment & Sexual Awakening](/erotic-embodiment) Awaken the body’s erotic intelligence and explore sexuality as a source of vitality, expression, and expanded consciousness. [→ Explore this pillar](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) ## Featured Episodes #### *With Some of the Wisest Somatic Sexologists in the Field* [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987-150x150.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns/) # [Dr. Aline LaPierre](/podcast/how-our-developmental-arcline-of-touch-influences-adult-sexuality-intimacy-patterns/) Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy and Author of »Healing Developmental Trauma« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard-150x150.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body/) # [Susanne Roursgaard](/podcast/how-genital-armour-develops-affects-our-sexuality-and-resolves-from-the-body/) Psychotherapist, Sexologist, Mid-Wife and Creator of »The Gaia Method« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson-150x150.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) # [Devi Ward Erickson](/podcast/how-the-tibetan-five-elements-tantric-practices-metabolize-energy-for-sexual-pleasure/) Founder of »The Institute of Authentic Tantra Education« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon-150x150.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) # [Dr. Liam Snowdon](/podcast/how-not-fitting-into-normative-sexuality-boxes-can-lead-to-discovering-your-authentic-sexuality-all-about-somatic-sex-education/) Co-Founder of »Somatic Sex Educators Association« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/KimberlyAnneJohnson-150x150.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson! | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) # [Kimberly Anne Johnson](/podcast/how-to-awaken-our-inner-animal-by-restoring-our-nervous-system/) Author of »The Call of the Wild & The Fourth Trimester« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed-150x150.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) # [Dr. Ellen Heed](/podcast/how-scar-tissue-remediation-can-resolve-pelvic-pain-and-restore-a-healthy-pelvis/) STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza-150x150.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) # [Keli Garza](/podcast/how-vaginal-steaming-restores-the-organic-flow-of-reproductive-cycles-periods-and-organs/) Founder of »Steamy Chick« & The Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671-150x150.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) # [Kris Gonzalez L.Ac.](/podcast/how-to-live-a-jing-centered-life-honoring-our-sexual-qi-essence/) Founder of »The Way of Yin« [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun")](/podcast/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) # ["Coocky" Tassanee Boonsom ](/podcast/how-karsai-restores-blood-qi-and-energy-flow-to-the-genitalia-naturally/) Founder of »Loi Kroh« Traditional Thai Massage School [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin-e1615916054876.jpg)](/podcast/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) # [Dr. Betty Martin ](/podcast/how-the-wheel-of-consent-invites-an-ever-deepening-embodiment-for-intimacy-pleasure-and-relationships/) The Wheel of Consent & Author of »The Art of Receiving and Giving« ## Latest Podcast Episodes [![Erotic Reclamation: Kink, Desire & Power Dynamics](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-15-at-60832-PM-400x250.png)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/routhier-kinkead-erotic-reclamation/) ## [Erotic Reclamation: Kink, Desire & Power Dynamics](https://rahichun.com/podcast/routhier-kinkead-erotic-reclamation/) Sep 15, 2026 | [Podcast](https://rahichun.com/category/podcast/), [Podcasts on Culture, Power & Exploration](https://rahichun.com/category/podcast/erotic-energy-sexual-awakening/culture-power-exploration/), [Podcasts on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening](https://rahichun.com/category/podcast/erotic-energy-sexual-awakening/) Nicolette Routhier and Kari Kinkead of Erotic Reclamation explore kink, power dynamics, shame, and the somatic path to claiming desire fully. --- ### [Video Library](https://rahichun.com/video-library/) **Published:** November 11, 2025 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Content:** ## Erotic Embodiment & Somatic Wisdom Video Library Distilling the most potent teachings from Rahi Chun’s podcast, courses, and live events into focused, bite-sized video transmissions. Each clip is an invitation to reconnect with the wisdom and wonder of your body. New videos every Tuesday [Subscribe on youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@RahiChun?sub_confirmation=1) ## Featured Topics ##### [Somatic Sexual Healing](#somatic-sexual-healing) Heal sexual trauma, restore pleasure and reconnect to your body. ##### [Genital De-armoring](#genital-de-armoring) Resolving pelvic pain & numbness, and expanding pleasure ##### [Intimacy & Conscious Relationships](#intimacy-concious-relationships) Build trust, deepen connection, and grow in pleasure together ##### [Men's Sexuality & Sexual Health](#mens-sexuality-health) Overcome erectile challenges, build ejaculation choice, and embody the healthy masculine ##### [Erotic Embodiment & Awakening](#erotic-embodiment) Reclaim your life force, awaken erotic energy, and expand your capacity for joy and aliveness ## Somatic Sexual Healing [](#) ## How Trauma Wires the Body – A client once whispered in shame that she thought she was a monster because of how her body responded during her abuse. She wasn’t – her nervous system simply wired a horrific violent act with a physiological response. In this teaching I explain how trauma creates dissociation, how arousal can become wired to what horrifies us, and how new neural pathways are possbile. [](#) ### Why 80% of Adult Intimacy Struggles Begin in Childhood 80–90% of adult sexual issues can be traced back to developmental events occuring between ages birth through seven. In this conversation, we explore how the body tests every practitioner like a hurt friend would, and what soft de-armoring looks like with somatic sexuality pioneers Susanne Roursgaard and Stine Krage. [](#) ### The Throat–Pelvis Connection Everyone Should Know Your vocal cords and your ovaries began as the same embryonic tissue – and what silences your voice can armor your pelvis. In this teaching from my live Genital De-armoring training, I share the embryology, why learned voicelessness shows up as pelvic tension and numbness, and the simple sound practice that begins to dissolve it. Explore more through the online course “Reclaiming Your Pleasure” with video demos of one-way erotic touch practices on live bodies, exploring how your initial imprints are influencing your current patterns, and somatic practices for re-wiring and reclaiming your aroual and pleasure potential: [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) ## Genital De-armoring [](#) ### *What Is Genital Armoring? Why Your Body Protects You From Pleasure* Genital armoring is the body’s protective tension – numbness, pain, or faded sensation held in our most intimate tissue as a wise response to perceived threat. In this conversation, somatic sex education pioneer Caffyn Jesse interviews me about what genital armor is, how it forms in childhood, and why whole lives can change when it releases. Explore more through “The 3 Keys To Genital De-armoring for Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure” – including “The 3 Keys Inquiries” exploring how the armor in your pelvis formed, video demos for self and partnered de-armoring of the vulva, vagina, cervix and penis, and the principles of effective and compassionate de-armoring: [The 3 Keys To Genital De-armoring for Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure ](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) ## Intimacy & Conscious Relationships Conscious intimacy reflects the ability to remain present, connected, and responsive within intimate and erotic relationship – while staying aware of your body, emotions, and boundaries. It is built through awareness, communication, nervous system regulation and engaging your full erotic capacity. *Videos on this pillar are coming. In the meantime, listen to the most down-loaded episodes on Intimate Relating or explore the online course options for Divine Union For Lovers* → **Listen:** [Extended Lovemaking: slow down for deep connection & pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/extended-lovemaking-deep-intimacy/) → **Listen:** [Rebuilding Intimacy after healing from sexual trauma](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-sexual-trauma-rebuilding-intimacy/) → **Listen:** [Sexuality, Aging and Intimacy after 60](https://rahichun.com/podcast/intimacy-after-60-lifelong-passion/) → **Learn:** [Divine Union For Lovers – online, guided zoom & in-person options](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) ## Men's Sexuality & Sexual Health Somatic work supports sexual function by restoring awareness, circulation, and nervous system regulation—rather than relying on force or performance. *Videos on this pillar are coming. In the meantime, listen to the most down-loaded episodes on Men’s Sexuality or explore the online course Reclaiming Your Pleasure.* → **Listen:** [Prostate Massage & Male Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/podcast/prostate-massage-male-pleasure/) → **Listen:** [A Somatic Approach to resolving erectile dysfunction](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) → **Listen:** [Embodied Anal Pleasure & Prostate Play](https://rahichun.com/podcast/embodied-anal-pleasure-prostate-play/) → **Learn:** [Reclaiming Your Pleasure Online Course](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) ## Erotic Embodiment & Awakening ###### *Erotic embodiment is the capacity to feel and express sexual energy throughout the body—integrating sensation, emotion, breath, and awareness.* *Videos on this pillar are coming. In the meantime, listen to the most down-loaded episodes on Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening or explore the online course Turned On By Touch* → **Listen:** [Ecstatic Belonging & Embodied Community](https://rahichun.com/podcast/ecstatic-belonging-caffyn-jesse/) → **Listen:** [Rewilding Eros: Exploring Shame, Grief and Sexual Expression](https://rahichun.com/podcast/rewilding-eros-healing-shame-grief/) → **Listen:** [Erotic Empowerment & Somatic Intimacy](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erotic-empowerment-somatic-intimacy/) → **Learn:** [Turned On By Touch Online Course](https://rahichun.com/turnedonbytouch) ## Want to go deeper? Join a course or the Tribe Membership to explore what’s possible in your erotic embodiment and somatic wisdom. [Explore Courses](https://rahichun.com/courses/) [Join the Tribe](/membership) ![Promotional banner offering a free 16‑minute genital breathing meditation and awakening checklist with the slogan 'Breath. Presence. No agenda.'](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/EbookTeaser5.jpg "| Rahi Chun") #### Your body already knows how to feel. This practice helps you remember. Sign up to receive this gift plus occasional podcast updates and offerings from Rahi. You can always unsubscribe. ## Success! Name Email [ Yes - send it to me ](#) --- ### [Courses](https://rahichun.com/courses/) **Published:** November 5, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## coUrses ## Master Your Erotic Intelligence & Embodied Wholeness Online Courses in Genital De-Armoring, Somatic Sexual Healing & Sacred Embodiment ![Rahi Chun online courses somatic sexual healing genital de-armoring](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") *With Rahi Chun, Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* These transformational online programs are designed for anyone ready to awaken their body’s innate capacity for pleasure, healing, and wholeness — whether you’re resolving trauma, deepening intimacy, expanding your erotic aliveness, or building professional expertise in somatic sexual healing. ### *Not sure where to begin? Here’s your map:* **Want to sample the work?** →[ *Awaken Your Body*](#awaken) is three guided somatic audio practices + three bonus video lessons drawing from three core courses below — a taste of this work in your own body, at your own pace. **Beginners & The Curious** →[ *Turned On By Touch*](#touch) is the ideal entry point — a body-awakening course exploring 10 of the body’s primary erogenous zones through guided solo and partnered touch practices, without genital work. Perfect for those new to somatic embodiment. **Individuals Seeking Healing & Pleasure Reclamation** →[ *Reclaiming Your Pleasure*](#pleasure) is a guided somatic journey to release childhood imprints, restore pelvic sensation, and reclaim your body as a source of safety, joy, and aliveness. Trauma-aware, self-paced, and accessible to all genders. **Couples & Lovers →** [*Divine Union for Lovers*](#union) offers the relational skills, erotic practices, and somatic tools to heal old wounds, deepen sensual connection, and expand into extended lovemaking — whether you’ve been together 2 months or 20 years **Practitioners & Healing Professionals →** Start with [*The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring*](#3keys) — the only online program of its kind, offering foundational principles, somatic techniques, and instructional demo videos for genital de-armoring of the vulva, vagina, cervix, and penis. Designed for sex educators, pelvic floor therapists, somatic practitioners, and anyone seeking professional-level mastery. ### New to this work? Start here. # AwakeN YouR Body – A Somatic Audio Series – Three guided somatic audio practices + bonus teachings from each of the main courses below. Before committing to a full program, let your body orient. It’s the body’s way of knowing what it’s ready for — before the mind decides. **$49** · Instant Access · [START HERE](/awaken-your-body) ## FeAtured OnliNe CouRses ## Turned On By Touch #### For Singles & Couples Beginning Somatic Exploration ###### Self-Paced Online Course *Learn how to attune to and amplify pleasure throughout the entire body with video demos exploring 10 of the body’s 11 primary erogenous zones. (does not include genital work)* [![Turned On By Touch erotic embodiment online course Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/TOBT-KeyVisual-w-text-NEW.jpg "TURNED ON BY TOUCH (1900 x 800 px) | Rahi Chun")](/turnedonbytouch) #### Includes: - Guided Practices for Solo & Partnered Touch - Full Body Erogenous Zones Mapping (excluding genitals) - Empowering the body’s Voice & Choice - How childhood ruptures can be repaired via One-Way Touch **Unlock your body’s pleasure potential and create new somatic imprints for receiving.** [Start Your Journey](/turnedonbytouch) ## Reclaiming Your Pleasure #### For All Genders Seeking Greater Embodied Pleasure ###### Self-Paced Online Course with Office Hours ***A Guided Path to Awakening Sensation, Healing Old Imprints & Reclaiming Your Erotic Aliveness*** *A self-paced somatic healing journey to reclaim pleasure, release childhood imprints, and awaken embodied aliveness through whole-body and genital mapping with demo videos. Trauma-aware, empowering, and accessible to all.* [![Reclaiming Your Pleasure somatic healing online course Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Course-Visual.jpg "RYP- Course Visual | Rahi Chun")](/reclaimingyourpleasure) #### Includes: - Repairing developmental ruptures through embodied somatic practices - Reclaiming pleasure as birthright, not performance - Demo videos of genital mapping for restoring sensation and sovereignty - Transforming nervous system & embodied consent patterns - Included in The Somatic Arc Journeys: Homecoming & Embodied Wholeness **A soul-deep journey for reclaiming safety, sensation, and sovereignty.** [START YOUR JOURNEY](/reclaimingyourpleasure) ## The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring Online Course #### Perfect for Seekers, Partners, and Professional Practitioners *Discover the foundational principles and somatic practices of genital de-armoring from the comfort of your home. Designed for personal transformation, embodied pleasure and professional training.* [![The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring online course Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8.jpg "8 | Rahi Chun")](/the3keys) #### Includes: - Live Monthly Office Hrs. with Rahi - 4 Distinct Approaches to Genital DA - 4 Modules with Instructional Demo Videos for De-armoring the Vulva, Vagina, Cervix and Penis - The 3 Keys Inquiries uncovering the roots of adult patterns involving the pelvis and sexuality - Alum access to next live cohort - Included in The Somatic Arc Journeys: Reclaiming & Embodied Wholeness [Enroll Now](/the3keys) ## Divine Union For Lovers #### For Couples or Singles Preparing for Partnership ###### Self-Paced Online Course or with Live Coaching Options ***Relational Skills For Deep Sensual Connection, Extended Lovemaking, and Pleasure-based Healing*** *Drawing upon a rich menu of delicious practices from the fields of somatic sex education, sexological bodywork, and tantra, explore the relational skills and erotic states of consciousness to heal and expand into new realms of lovmaking* [![Divine Union For Lovers couples intimacy online course Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Divine-Union-Course-Header.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun")](/divineunionforlovers) #### Includes: - Self-Paced Anytime Access or - w/optional 3 Coaching Calls or - w/optional 3 In-person days - The 8 Pillars of Intimacy & Consent - Channeling Sexual Energy for Resolving Wounds - Expanding Erotic Energy for Extended Lovemaking - Reclaiming Intimate Safety to Be Seen, Heard and Met in Divine Union **Create a new and expanded sex life with your short- or long-term partner** [START YOUR JOURNEY](https://divineunionforlovers.com/course/) ## Learning with Rahi ChuN ![Rahi Chun somatic sex educator online course creator Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Portrait.png "Couple-Legs | Rahi Chun") **After over a decade of hands-on somatic sexual healing work with hundreds of clients, I’ve identified the core blocks that keep most people from experiencing the pleasure, intimacy, and embodied wholeness they long for.** These online courses distill that wisdom into accessible, transformative practices you can explore at your own pace, in complete privacy. Each course integrates the principles and wisdom from *Somatic Sex Education, [Sexological Bodywork™](#), [The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements](#)*, and *Taoist & Tantric practices.* [More About Rahi](https://rahichun.com/about/) “I felt that I was getting a state-of-the-art deep-dive from the best of the best in the field. I could feel Rahi’s love and excitement towards this work, which made it such a pleasure to learn from him. I have rarely felt so much respect from a teacher towards his students.” Susanne HillmanPhD. Sex, Love and Relationship Coach --- ### [Articles](https://rahichun.com/blog/) **Published:** September 22, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Somatic Wisdom For Your Journey Into Embodied Wholeness Welcome to the Blog – a space where poetic truth meets practical tools Each article explores themes of sacred sexuality, trauma integration, genital wholeness, nervous system safety, and the multidimensional pathways to erotic sovereignty. Whether you’re a practitioner, seeker, or simply curious, may these insights serve as gentle guides back to your body’s innate wisdom. [SUBSCRIBE](#) ## Featured Topics ##### [Somatic Sexual Healing](/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) Heal sexual trauma, restore pleasure and reconnect to your body. [→ Explore all articles](/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) ##### [Genital De-armoring](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/genital-de-armoring-articles/) Resolving pelvic pain & numbness, and expanding pleasure [→ Explore all articles](/category/articles/genital-de-armoring-articles/) ##### [Intimacy & Conscious Relationships](/category/articles/intimacy-conscious-relationships-articles/) Build trust, deepen connection, and grow in pleasure together [→ Explore all articles](/category/articles/intimacy-conscious-relationships-articles/) ##### [Men's Sexuality & Sexual Health](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/mens-sexuality-sexual-health-articles/) Overcome erectile challenges, build ejaculation choice, and embody the healthy masculine [→ Explore all articles](/category/articles/mens-sexuality-sexual-health-articles/) ##### [Erotic Embodiment & Awakening](/category/articles/erotic-embodiment-awakening/) Reclaim your life force, awaken erotic energy, and expand your capacity for joy and aliveness [→ Explore all articles](/category/articles/erotic-embodiment-awakening/) ## All Articles [![Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery?](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/Screenshot-2026-09-14-at-95309-PM-400x250.png)](https://rahichun.com/articles/will-i-ever-feel-anything-again-after-pelvic-surgery/) ## [Will I Ever Feel Anything Again After Pelvic Surgery?](https://rahichun.com/articles/will-i-ever-feel-anything-again-after-pelvic-surgery/) by [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/author/rahi/ "Posts by Rahi Chun") | Sep 15, 2026 | [Articles](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/), [Somatic Sexual Healing](https://rahichun.com/category/articles/somatic-sexual-healing-articles/) Numbness after pelvic surgery is usually scar tissue, restricted fascia and a guarding nervous system, not dead nerves. Sensation often returns. --- ### [EROTIC ENERGY, EMBODIMENT & SEXUAL AWAKENING](https://rahichun.com/erotic-embodiment/) **Published:** April 2, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Erotic Energy & Sexual Awakening ## Reclaim Desire & Full-body Pleasure ![Richard Morrow Yoni Art](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/joshua-earle-bT3OYK4xgHE-unsplash-scaled.jpg "joshua-earle-bT3OYK4xgHE-unsplash | Rahi Chun") Erotic energy is life force. It is the current that moves through desire, creativity, connection, and expression. When it is suppressed or disconnected: Life feels flat Desire diminishes Expression contracts When it is restored: The body becomes more alive Pleasure expands beyond the genitals Creativity opens Connection deepens This is not about performance. It is about returning to aliveness. ## What Is Erotic Embodiment? Erotic embodiment is the capacity to feel and express sexual energy throughout the body—integrating sensation, emotion, breath, and awareness. ![pleasure is medicine somatic sexual healing sunlight nature embodiment](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/a4d66e2-d0ee-b7f-517-cde08a4b814_timothy-dykes-a2HUve2bUkY-unsplash.jpg "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ### Why Erotic Energy Becomes Suppressed? - Shame and conditioning - Trauma and disconnection - Cultural messaging and an absent voice - Lack of body awareness ### This Work Supports: - Reconnecting to desire and aliveness - Expanding pleasure and expression - Healing shame around sexuality - Deepening embodiment ### Common Problems This Work Solves - Low libido and sex drive - Lack of desire for intimate connection - Disconnection from pleasure - Suppressed expression and aliveness ### What You’ll Learn: - Sexual energy as life force - How embodiment awakens sensation - The connection between creativity and desire - How to expand access to full-body pleasure ## Podcast Episodes ON EROTIC EMBODIMENT & SEXUAL AWAKENING TOPICS ## Erotic Awakening & Energy ## [The Four Phases of Erotic Liberation (with Darshana Avila)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/four-phases-erotic-liberation/) Oct 20, 2025 Rahi Chun and erotic wholeness guide Darshana Avila explore how trauma-informed somatics and consent practices unlock the erotic as a force of healing, empowerment, and activism. They discuss the four phases of erotic liberation—regulation, receiving, allowing & expressing, and liberating Eros—and how each phase opens deeper intimacy and authenticity. This conversation unpacks why receiving is radical, how desire smuggling undermines trust, and why reclaiming our erotic power is essential to both personal fulfillment and collective liberation. [read more](https://rahichun.com/podcast/four-phases-erotic-liberation/) --- ### [MEN’S SEXUALITY & SEXUAL HEALTH](https://rahichun.com/mens-sexuality/) **Published:** April 2, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Men’s Sexuality & Sexual Health ## Overcome Erectile Dysfunction, Disconnected Embodiment & Take Ownership of your Sexuality ![Macro close-up of a pale yellow hairy flower bud on a green stem with a dark blurred background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/luiz-rogerio-nunes-PRG1m8W0W8o-unsplash-red.jpg "luiz-rogerio-nunes-PRG1m8W0W8o-unsplash-red | Rahi Chun") Over time, this disconnect can show up as: Erectile dysfunction Performance anxiety Reduced sensitivity Lack of pleasure The issue is not the body. It is the loss of connection to the body. When men reconnect to sensation, breath, and awareness: Erections become more responsive Pleasure becomes fuller Confidence becomes grounded Intimacy becomes more connected This is a shift from performance to presence. ## A Different Approach to Men’s Sexual Health Somatic work supports sexual function by restoring awareness, circulation, and nervous system regulation—rather than relying on force or performance. ![Two people lying in bed, embracing in a close hug with arms around each other.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/curated-lifestyle-GWhuJAHEi0U-unsplash-scaled.jpg "curated-lifestyle-GWhuJAHEi0U-unsplash | Rahi Chun") ### Common Challenges Men Experience - Erectile dysfunction - Performance pressure - Loss of sensitivity - Disconnection from pleasure ### This Work Supports: - Men experiencing ED or performance anxiety - Those seeking deeper pleasure and connection - Men wanting to feel more present in intimacy - Partners wanting more relational depth ### What You’ll Learn: - How performance pressure affects the body - How to restore sensitivity and responsiveness - The role of the nervous system in sexual function - How to build embodied confidence ## Podcast Episodes ON MEN’S SEXUALULITY TOPICS ## Performance & Dysfunction ## [Erectile Dysfunction: A Somatic Approach to Healing (Men’s Sexuality)](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) Aug 3, 2023 Ron & Pono Stewart are both certified Sexological Bodyworkers and Somatic Sex Educators who work with all genders, yet they have focussed insights and experiences in tailor-designing individual and couple retreats for men/cock-owners. We explore how some of the most common issues involving enjoying healthy erections and ejaculation choice are rooted from our developmental imprints where our own connection and intimacy with our genitalia are formed, and how they each and together hold sacred space for men to embody, empower, and expand the capacity for sacred eros. [read more](https://rahichun.com/podcast/erectile-dysfunction-somatic-healing-men/) --- ### [INTIMACY & CONSCIOUS RELATIONSHIPS](https://rahichun.com/intimacy-relationships/) **Published:** April 2, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Intimacy & Conscious Relationships ## Build Trust, Deepen Connection & Expand Pleasure ![pleasure is medicine somatic sexual healing sunlight nature embodiment](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/43240f3-737c-de-d175-346c361bac5_7ad63fbd-15be-4d3c-9211-7b398b987056.jpg "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") Intimacy is not something you perform. It is something your nervous system allows. Many people struggle in relationships not because they lack care & desire – but because their body does not feel safe enough to stay open. Real intimacy requires slowing down, attuning to what is present, and communicating from that awareness. When safety & connection replaces urgency: Intimacy becomes natural Communication becomes honest Boundaries become clear Desire becomes authentic and eroticism flows naturally This is where relationship becomes a lived, embodied experience – not a concept. ## What Is Conscious Intimacy? Conscious intimacy is the ability to remain present, connected, and responsive within relationship—while staying aware of your body, emotions, and boundaries. It is built through awareness, communication, nervous system regulation and engaging your erotic capacity. ![Close-up of a man with eyes closed as a gentle touch rests on his jawline from another person off-camera; calm, intimate moment.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/andrej-lisakov-C5gCU22jMts-unsplash-scaled.jpg "andrej-lisakov-C5gCU22jMts-unsplash | Rahi Chun") ### Why Intimacy Breaks Down Common challenges include: - Nervous system overwhelm - Fear of vulnerability - Lack of embodied consent - Disconnection from sensation and the body’s erotic wisdom ### This Work Supports: - Couples seeking deeper connection - Individuals wanting healthier relationships - Those healing relational patterns - Anyone wanting more authentic intimacy ### Common Problems This Work Solves - Lack of nervous system attunement - Erotic IQ misalignments - Emotional distance - Desire and libido mismatch ### What You’ll Learn: - How to create safety in relationship - The role of consent and boundaries - How to communicate from embodied awareness - How to invite, engage and respond to erotic energy ## Podcast Episodes ON INTIMACY & CONSCIOUS RELATING TOPICS ## Consent, Boundaries & Communication ## [Consent, Race & Sacred Sexuality: Power, Boundaries & Awareness](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-race-sacred-sexuality/) Oct 29, 2024 Amina Peterson created The Atlanta Institute of Tantra to provide safe & joyous havens for the exploration and reclamation of our embodied sexual nature, power, authentic consent, and erotic pleasures. Her experiential wisdom from deep dives into the nature of tantra, somatic presence, sexual healing, and erotic bodywork has yielded trainings for Somatic Sexologists, Bliss retreats for erotic abolitionists, and mentorships for those seeking to hold such sacred sexual liberation spaces. She shares her journey and insights into the art of space holding for sexual wholeness. [read more](https://rahichun.com/podcast/consent-race-sacred-sexuality/) --- ### [GENITAL DE-ARMORING, PELVIC HEALING & PLEASURE EXPANSION](https://rahichun.com/genital-de-armoring/) **Published:** April 2, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Genital De-armoring ## Resolving Pelvic Pain & Numbness and Restoring Pleasure ![Richard Morrow Yoni Art](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/yoni-richard_morrow.png "Richard Morrow Yoni Art | Rahi Chun") The genitals are one of the most sensitive—and most protected—areas of the body. Tension, numbness, pain, and disconnection are not random. They are adaptive responses shaped by experience, conditioning, and the nervous system. Genital de-armoring works directly with the tissues of the pelvis to restore circulation, sensitivity, and connection. As these patterns begin to release: Blood flow increases Sensation returns Pleasure expands Emotional holding can resolve This is not about chasing intensity. It is about restoring the body’s capacity to feel safely, deeply, and fully. ## What Is Genital De-Armoring? Genital de-armoring is a somatic practice that releases tension, numbness, pain, and stored patterns in the pelvic tissues through direct, body-based awareness and touch. This work supports both physical and emotional healing by restoring the natural responsiveness of the genitals. ![Close-up of a pink-red flower bud with a soft green background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/raimond-klavins-gN-xT799rtE-unsplash-scaled.jpg "raimond-klavins-gN-xT799rtE-unsplash | Rahi Chun") ### What Causes Genital Pain or Numbness? Common contributors include: - Scar tissue from birthing, surgery, or injury - Chronic pelvic tension - Non-consensual sex - Sexual trauma or boundary violations - Nervous system dysregulation ### This work supports: - Resolving painful sex or pelvic discomfort - Restoring sensitivity from numbness - Ease from difficulty accessing pleasure - Desire for deeper sexual embodiment ### What You’ll Learn: - Why the genitals hold tension and numbness - How to restore sensitivity and circulation - The connection between emotional healing and genital sensation - How pleasure expands through safety and awareness ## Podcast Episodes ON GENITAL DE-ARMORING TOPICS ## Pain, Scar Tissue & Recovery ## [Healing Genital Injury & Sexual Trauma in the Body](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-genital-injury-sexual-trauma/) Jun 10, 2021 How do you go about your life, sexual relationships, and relating to your genitalia after medical violations lead to numbness, and medical professionals are advising you that there is nothing more you can do? Special guests, Diane and Sophia, share candidly about their respective journeys of how they restored and reclaimed their sexual pleasure and wholeness after medical and family neglect lead to genital pain and numbness. [read more](https://rahichun.com/podcast/healing-genital-injury-sexual-trauma/) --- ### [SOMATIC SEXUAL HEALING](https://rahichun.com/somatic-sexual-healing/) **Published:** April 2, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Somatic Sexual Healing ## Heal Sexual Trauma, Restore Pleasure and Reconnect to Your Body ![Richard Morrow Yoni Art](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/yoni-richard_morrow.png "Richard Morrow Yoni Art | Rahi Chun") Your body is not broken. It adapted. Somatic sexual healing restores the body’s capacity to feel, trust, and open again – by working directly with sensation, the nervous system, and embodied awareness. Trauma, conditioning, and life experiences shape how we experience intimacy, pleasure, and connection. When those patterns are held in the body, they cannot be resolved through thinking alone. When the body feels safe enough, autonomous and resourced – it naturally reorganizes: Sensation returns Pleasure becomes accessible Intimacy deepens The body begins to trust again This is where healing moves beyond understanding — and becomes embodied. ## What Is Somatic Sexual Healing? Somatic sexual healing is a trauma-informed, body-based approach that works directly with sensation, breath, touch, and awareness to restore the body’s natural capacity for pleasure and connection. Rather than focusing only on the mind, this work recognizes that trauma lives in the body—and must be resolved through direct embodied experience. ![Close-up of a pink-red flower bud with a soft green background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/b81624a-455a-d1a1-078f-831db14fe0_madhu-shesharam-EVZxXuOEk3w-unsplash.jpg "raimond-klavins-gN-xT799rtE-unsplash | Rahi Chun") ### This work supports: - Healing sexual trauma and early imprinting - Restoring sensation after numbness or disconnection - Deepening intimacy and relational connection - Expanding pleasure and embodied awareness ### How This Shows Up in the Body - Numbness or lack of sensation - Hyper-sensitivity or overwhelm - Difficulty relaxing into touch or intimacy - Disconnect between mind and body - Feeling “shut down” or guarded ### What You’ll Learn: - How trauma and early imprinting shape sexual experience - Why the body—not the mind—is the gateway to healing - How to rebuild safety, trust, and sensation - How pleasure becomes a pathway to wholeness ## Podcast Episodes ON SOMATIC SEXUAL HEALING TOPICS ## Trauma & Nervous System Healing ## [Trauma Lives in the Body: Somatic Healing & Recovery – Becky Carter](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) Nov 26, 2021 Thanks to Becky’s many areas of expertise, we cover a lot of ground in this episode including how to identify pre-verbal traumas in the body, resolving issues specific to male sexual trauma survivors, how compounding injuries of racial and sexual abuse and/or aggressions experienced by marginalized communities affect the nervous system and holding space for their resolution, and working with adoptees and their families – all from a somatic approach and awareness. [read more](https://rahichun.com/podcast/trauma-lives-in-the-body/) --- ### [The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring](https://rahichun.com/the3keys/) **Published:** November 21, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/yoni-richard_morrow.png "| Rahi Chun") ## The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring ## For Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure ### *How to bring safety within the nervous system, reclaim your body’s authentic sovereignty & empower your sexual autonomy.* This course teaches genital de-armoring through somatic sexual healing practices #### Perfect for Seekers, Partners, and Professional Practitioners *Discover the foundational principles and somatic practices of genital de-armoring from the comfort of your home. Designed for personal transformation, embodied pleasure and professional training.* ## What is Genital Armoring? ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/b81624a-455a-d1a1-078f-831db14fe0_madhu-shesharam-EVZxXuOEk3w-unsplash.jpg "| Rahi Chun") Genital armor is a common experience in most bodies. It’s a form of **self-protection** – your body’s organic response to guard itself. We may develop genital armor when there is - **physical threat** - **emotional threat** such as shaming - **mental threat** such as self-judgement - or instances involving **all three**, such as repeated instances of sexual activity before proper foreplay. The **tissues and fascia** holding onto chronic guarding patterns can lead to **desensitization, discomfort, pain, tension, and numbness**, until the armor is released. No matter what your experience has been, **your body’s innate intelligence knows how to release the armor** when you are supported in the right ways. In this live course, we explore the **3 keys** to establishing a **solid foundation for genital de-armoring** to reclaim your body’s **organic aliveness, connection and pleasure**. - First, how to bring safety within the nervous system – allowing the body to relish receiving **touch**. - Second, how to reclaim the body’s authentic sovereignty through its **voice and choice.** - Third, how to empower the body’s sexual autonomy through **genital mapping**. The release of past guarding patterns from the tissues and fascia of the genitalia and pelvis restores sensitivity, aliveness, and your body’s organic healthy arousal & pleasure response. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/e67343-1be7-da86-0300-0a10dde6d8f_zetong-li-dxksyYhjAnU-unsplash.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "DUFLRahiPicBluescaledFace | Rahi Chun") ## Hi, I'm Rahi. #### *Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* For the past decade, I’ve been holding space to repair the ruptures affecting the safe embodiment of our sensual and sexual natures – from our developmental years, through adolescence, and into adulthood. Amongst the wide variety of issues I’ve addressed in one-on-one sessions with hundreds of clients, a vast majority of them have involved genital de-armoring – the release of chronic guarding patterns, unexpressed emotions, and unintegrated experiences within the tissues and fascia of the genitalia leading to a desensitization to organic arousal and pleasure responses in the body. I saw how pervasive a phenomenon this is for people of all ages and all walks of life – beyond what I can offer in one private practice. I want you to be empowered with these tools and knowledge about the natural wisdom and wonder of your body, and be able to move at your own pace and from the comfort and privacy of your own home, anywhere in the world. *“I felt that I was getting a state-of-the-art deep-dive from the best of the best in the field. I could feel Rahi’s love and excitement towards this work, which made it such a pleasure to learn from him. I have rarely felt so much respect from a teacher towards his students.”* **Susanne Hillman**, PhD. Sex, Love and Relationship Coach, Berlin, Germany ## In this course you will ... N Restore your pleasure responses through an experiential, practical and effective approach N Address your whole being somatically via guided embodied meditations and video demos of genital mapping & de-armoring processes N Self-inquire into the conditioning that affects your adult intimacy behaviours and patterns N Have access to me via monthly live office hours to integrate each lesson & module *“Rahi created such a wonderful atmosphere of being held, of respect for the human body, of sexuality. I learned to be more loving with my body, with my own past and my traumas. I did a lot of emotional work on myself before, but genital de-armoring like Rahi teaches, took me many layers deeper.”* Amanda S., Somatic Sexologist & Sex Educator [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ## What's included: N Video demonstrations of how to de-armor chronic tense, guarding and holding patterns within the vulva, vagina, and penis. N Video demonstrations of genital mapping as well as self-mapping. N Video demonstrations of how to explore the 11 erogenous zones, either solo or with a partner. N The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring Workbook exploring the influences of our developmental years that have informed how we relate to our genitalia, touch, intimacy, and embodied sexuality as adults. N Monthly Live Office hrs. with Rahi to build upon and integrate the lessons and practices of each module, and have all of your questions answered. [Enroll Now](#registration) *“This work is powerful, transformative and necessary.”* **Deanna Noe**, Somatic Sex Educator [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ## Course Structure ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8bb3853-c80c-4b8-0c51-ca6d5570081_nicholas-ng-SvU-kkCV_88-unsplash.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun") ###### *MODULE 1* #### *The Nervous System’s Sense of Safety for Receiving Touch* N How your sexual responsiveness to pleasure is linked to the state of your nervous system N How unresolved issues and conflicts in relationships affect intimacy, arousal and pleasure states & receptivity N Explore and embody practices to down-regulate your nervous system inviting its receptivity to touch, arousal and pleasure before and during sexual intimacy N A guided somatic contemplation to provide a felt-sense of how the body opens up to or protects itself from emotions and sensations N Bonus Practice for partners to down-regulate their nervous systems before intimacy for greater pleasure, loving connection and openness. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/c2aaf51-1f43-c131-4d6f-363e48f1732_vicky-hladynets-rT4u9lr7LLg-unsplash.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun") ###### *MODULE 2* #### *Autonomy and Sovereignty of the Body’s Voice and Choice* N Examine your own intimate relationship with your body. N Recondition your body’s touch receptors to experience only what it desires. N Address unresolved traumas that your body is responding to unconsciously in relational intimacy. N Re-imprint your body’s voice with your desires and felt-sense experiences. N Explore your body’s 11 erogenous zones, either Solo or with a partner. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/a4d66e2-d0ee-b7f-517-cde08a4b814_timothy-dykes-a2HUve2bUkY-unsplash.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun") ###### *MODULE 3* #### *Genital Mapping* N Identify, understand and feel what each genital anatomical erogenous zone is designed to elicit in order to take ownership of your body and pleasure. N Understand how past conditioning has influenced your views, acceptance, judgements and experiences of your genitalia. N Explore a deeper, more intimate and connected relationship with your genitalia. N Learn how to map your genital anatomy (for vulva and penis owners) solo or with a practice partner. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/7c52fa1-8fc-d37f-876-dffb0514ccf4_330346231_745237746870796_5200269914211404422_n.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun") ###### *MODULE 4* #### *Genital Dearmouring* N Understand each of the 4 Approaches to Genital De-armoring. N Explore how to combine Genital Mapping, Massage, and De-armoring so it can be a pleasurable, connecting and healing experience for you. N Understand how the de-armoring process mirrors your body’s nervous system down-regulation journey. N Learn how to de-armor your genitalia – solo or with a practice partner. N Explore guided self-de-armoring sessions. N How to Integrate after de-armoring sessions. ## What Participants Are Saying [](#) Meredith *“The course is a perfect complement to the Somatic Sex Educator / SexBod training – and I’m sure for other healing modalities. There is a wealth of high-quality information on the online portal, including many detailed and clear videos and demos, beautifully and mindfully presented. The weekly gatherings -whole group, breakout pods, and amazing invited speakers – were equally valuable. And I loved the sense of community Rahi fostered. I recommend it to practitioners, as well as anyone who wants to take a deep dive into learning about their own body and the many ways to access healing and pleasure.”* Melody JoyceSomatic Sex Educator Aaron *“Through the course, I learned the understory of how to hold dearmouring – to allow the body the space to be where it is at, and give the touch that is needed for shifts to occur. The hands-on modules were incredible and I loved seeing Rahi work. The depth of his knowledge and experience were so present throughout, and the sense of deep caring around a person’s experience and return to sexual wholeness was so felt.”* LeighWell Womb Care & Ritual Baiana *“I have sought healing through a number of modalities – traditional and alternative – over the past 25 years. I thought I had exhausted all options. Rahi’s approach to healing has given me new-found hope in my sexuality. I have already progressed significantly and I continue to revisit the course material, integrating something new each time. Rahi’s level of professionalism and authentic care is exceptional. Thank you thank you thank you!”* MHSYoga Teacher ## Your INvestMeNt ## The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring For Reclaiming & Expanding Pleasure An Online Evergreen Education For All Bodies. #### Full Price $777 - Access to All Course Materials Immediately [Register Now](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/the3keys/) #### 2 Installments $395/2 - **Payments up to one month apart** [REGISTER NOW](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/the3keys/) #### For Couples $1111 - Couples may receive access via 2 emails/login [REGISTER NOW](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/the3keys/) **Important Notice** All courses are educational and therapeutic in nature. We do not provide sexual services, explicit sexual content, or pornography. Content is designed for adult learners (strictly 18+ only) seeking personal development, somatic education, and relationship wellness. [Refund Policy](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy/)/[Terms & Conditions](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions/)/[Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy/) If you have any questions, want info about BIPOC Scholarship, or to join the wait-list to be notified for the next cohort: [Click here to send an email. ](mailto:rahi@rahichun.com) ## FrequeNtly Asked QuestioNs ##### I’m a Sexological Bodyworker - What will I learn? The information in this course has been distilled from a variety of different nervous system re-regulation, sacred sexuality, and hands-on pelvic healing trainings, in addition to my background in developmental psychology. Specifically, there are elements of genital de-armoring, genital massage, how early childhood conditioning affects our adult sexual behavior and pleasure patterns, and how to increase blood flow to the genitalia that are drawn from outside the SexBod trainings. ##### I don’t have a partner. Can I do this course ? This course is designed for all people, whether partnered or single. The video demonstrations of exploring the 11 erogenous zones and genital mapping for vulva and cock owners include how to experience them solo or partnered and the genital de-armoring videos for vulva and cock owners are accompanied by audio self-guided de-armoring sessions for those wanting to explore them with themselves. ##### I have a lot of trauma history with so much genital armor, I don’t know where to begin… Is this course still for me? Although this course is intended for educational purposes and does not replace the experience of in-person therapy or hands-on sexological bodywork, it can be an informative and illuminating way to begin the journey of understanding how the body heals itself when given the safe space with the right support and practices. You are encouraged to move at your own pace, always understanding you are at full choice and consent to participate or not, in any practice, exercise or activity. Having said this, the 6 somatic contemplation exercises and video demos rely on the receiver inhabiting their body to a degree that they can identify and voice what it is their body is sensing and feeling. If you still have concerns or specific questions, please feel free to reach out to me at Rahi@SomaticSexualWholeness.com ##### Is this course for any sexual orientation and gender identity? Indeed, it is. This course is for everyone LGBTQ+++. ##### May I take this course with my partner? Yes, you and your partner are most welcome to explore the course material, video demos and somatic sexual practices together, using 1 or 2 email and login as you please. --- ### [Turned On By Touch - Course](https://rahichun.com/turnedonbytouch/) **Published:** November 27, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** A beginner-friendly course that teaches you how to give and receive the kind of touch that feels safe, attuned, grounded, and deeply satisfying. Trauma-aware, consent-based, and welcome to all. **Content:** # Turned On By Touch ### A Gentle, Guided Introduction to Giving & Receiving Nourishing, Consensual Touch This course teaches pleasure awakening through somatic sexual healing practices. #### For Anyone Who Wants to Feel Safe, Seen & Connected Through Touch *A beginner-friendly course that teaches you how to give and receive the kind of touch that feels safe, attuned, grounded, and deeply satisfying. Trauma-aware, consent-based, and welcome to all.* ## Everyone Deserves to Feel Safe & Nourished in Touch And yet most people were never taught: • How to ask for the kind of touch they want • How to stay present while receiving • How to give touch that feels attuned instead of accidental • How to feel into boundaries without fear or pressure Turned On By Touch is a gentle entry point into embodied intimacy – without pelvic content, performance, or overwhelm. It offers everything most of us should have learned growing up, but never did. [Start Now](#registration) ## Touch Is One of the Most Human Forms of Connection - And Yet the Most Misunderstood ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/TouchHands.jpg "FullWomanBed | Rahi Chun") #### *We live in a world where touch is:* - Used without consent - Often rushed - Highly sexualized - Given with uncertainty - Received with tension - Confused with taking or pleasing ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/22-1.jpg "Woemn-Legs-embrace | Rahi Chun") #### *No wonder so many people:* - Can’t fully relax into touch - Collapse or perform - Have trouble asking for what they want - Feel unsure how to give touch that feels good - Fear being “too much” or “not enough” #### *This course rewrites that story.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ## Hi, I'm Rahi. #### *Certified Somatic Educator & Relational Intimacy Specialist* For over a decade, I’ve held space for one of the most tender and profound journeys a body can take: **learning that touch can be safe again.** Through hundreds of private sessions, I’ve witnessed how developmental ruptures—from infancy through adulthood—create protective patterns that disconnect us from our capacity to feel. The guarding becomes so chronic, we forget we’re doing it. The numbness becomes so familiar, we think it’s just “how we are.” But beneath those protective layers, the body still remembers: **what it feels like to yield into safety, to voice authentic desire, to receive pleasure without performing, and to rest in the peace of satiation.** My work—grounded in Polyvagal Theory, NeuroAffective Touch, and somatic psychology—helps the nervous system complete what was interrupted. Not through force, but through gentle, embodied reconditioning that restores your body’s birthright: **to be turned on by touch, by life, by your own aliveness.** This phenomenon is far more widespread than any single practice can address. Which is why I created **Turned On By Touch**—so you can access these essential somatic practices from anywhere in the world, move at your own pace, and reclaim what’s always been yours: the capacity to feel safe, sovereign, and alive in your body. ## What you will learn … N #### The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements Framework Your body’s natural blueprint for moving from guarding to openness, from survival to aliveness N #### 4 Modules with Teaching & Guided Practices Safety (Yielding), Sovereignty (Attuning & Voicing), Sensation (Receiving), and Satiation (Satiating & Releasing) N #### Audio-Guided Somatic Practices Immersive meditations that teach your nervous system to yield, attune, receive, and release N #### Polyvagal Theory for Sensual Responsiveness Understand how nervous system states directly affect your capacity for pleasure and intimacy N #### Complete 11 Sensitivity Zones Exploration Video demonstration of full-body mapping with guidance for solo and partnered practice N #### Touch Reflection Workbook Integration prompts for each module to deepen your somatic awareness and track your evolution N #### Lifetime Access to All Materials Re-visit practices whenever your body needs a reset, with all future updates included [Reclaim Your Pleasure Now](#registration) ## This is the perfect starting point if: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1-2.png "1 | Rahi Chun") - You want to feel more comfortable with touch - You want to deepen intimacy gently - You’ve had difficulty receiving without pressure - You’re exploring somatic work for the first time - You want foundational tools before exploring deeper sexuality work - You’re nervous, curious, or both – and that’s okay You may be single, partnered, exploring, healing – you are welcome here. ## By the end of this journey, you will: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/2-3.png "2 | Rahi Chun") - Feel more confident asking for what you want - Know how to touch with presence - Repair developmental touch ruptures - Understand receiving touch to the point of satiation - Feel more at home in your body - Begin your path into embodied intimacy — at your pace ## What's included: N A complete beginner-friendly course N Touch exercises you can practice solo or with a partner N Consent frameworks that feel natural and human N Presence-building practices N Lifetime access for continuous exploration [Join Tuned On By Touch](#registration) ## Your INvestMeNt # Turned On By Touch Everyone deserves to feel safe and nourished in touch. Let this be your beginning. ## Single Payment $222 - Lifetime access. At your own pace. [Sign Up Now](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/tobt/) All courses are educational and therapeutic in nature. We do not provide sexual services, explicit sexual content, or pornography. Content is designed for adult learners (strictly 18+ only) seeking personal development, somatic education, and relationship wellness. [Refund Policy](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy/)/[Terms & Conditions](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions/)/[Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy/) If you have any questions, [click here to send an email. ](mailto:rahi@somaticsexualwholeness.com) ## FrequeNtly Asked QuestioNs ##### What makes "Turned On By Touch" different from other intimacy courses? Most touch and intimacy courses focus on *techniques*—where to touch, how to touch, what moves to make. **Turned On By Touch** takes a radically different approach: we work with your *nervous system* first, so your body remembers that touch can be safe, nourishing, and pleasurable. This course is built on **The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—a somatic framework I developed that mirrors your body’s natural developmental blueprint for connection: Yielding, Attuning, Voicing, Receiving, Satiating, and Releasing. These aren’t steps to memorize—they’re *felt experiences* that recondition your nervous system through direct practice. Rather than teaching you what to do with your hands, we teach your body how to *feel* again—how to soften into safety, how to listen for its truth, how to receive pleasure without performance, and how to rest in the fullness of satiation. When your nervous system learns this rhythm, touch becomes what it was always meant to be: **a gateway to aliveness, intimacy, and embodied presence**. ##### How is this course different from "Reclaiming Your Pleasure"? Both courses share the same foundational framework—**The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—but they serve different purposes and depths. **Turned On By Touch** is your essential foundation. It’s a streamlined 4-module journey (15-25 minutes per module) that focuses on the *core movements* your nervous system needs to open to touch and intimacy: Safety, Sovereignty, Sensation, and Satiation. Think of it as learning the alphabet of embodied pleasure—the fundamental rhythms that allow you to feel safe, speak your truth, receive goodness, and rest in completion. **Reclaiming Your Pleasure** is the comprehensive deep dive—a multi-week immersive experience with extensive practices including pelvic mapping, detailed exploration of developmental trauma repair, and profound somatic reconditioning. It goes much deeper into the *why* and *how* of your patterns, with more time for integration, somatic inquiries, and working with specific areas of numbness, guarding, or trauma. If you’re new to somatic work or want a powerful introduction to nervous system-informed intimacy, **start with Turned On By Touch**. If you’re ready for comprehensive transformation and have the time for deeper practice, **Reclaiming Your Pleasure** will meet you there. Many students complete Turned On By Touch first, then later enroll in Reclaiming Your Pleasure when they’re ready for the full journey. ##### Who is this course for? This course is for anyone who wants to remember what it feels like to be **truly alive in their body**—especially in the realm of touch and intimacy. You might be here because: - Touch feels good in theory, but uncomfortable or overwhelming in practice - You struggle to stay present during intimate moments—your mind wanders or you dissociate - You have difficulty knowing what you actually want or how to ask for it - You freeze, perform, or people-please rather than feeling and responding authentically - You want to deepen intimacy with a partner but don’t know where to start - You sense your body is capable of more sensation and pleasure than you currently experience - You’ve completed therapy or trauma work and want to integrate that healing *somatically* Whether you’re exploring solo or with a partner, whether you’re healing from past ruptures or simply curious about what embodied presence feels like—this course will meet you exactly where you are, **without pressure, without performance, without rushing**. ##### What will I actually experience in this course? This is a **fully embodied journey**—not a lecture series. Each module includes: **Module 1: Safety — Yielding** You’ll learn what safety *feels like* in your body—not as a concept, but as a lived experience. Through guided practice, you’ll explore how to yield into support, to soften your nervous system, and to create the foundation where pleasure can actually take root. **Module 2: Sovereignty — Attuning & Voicing** You’ll discover your body’s language of “yes,” “no,” and “maybe”—and practice giving voice to those truths. You’ll learn to attune to sensation before thought, and to speak your desires and boundaries with clarity and self-respect. **Module 3: Sensation — Receiving** You’ll explore the art of receptivity—how to *allow* pleasure rather than chase it, how to open your tissues to nourishment, and how to receive touch (from yourself or another) without performance or defense. **Module 4: Satiation — Satiating & Releasing** You’ll learn what completion feels like—the exhale of “enough,” the peace of satiation, and the nervous system’s natural release into rest and fulfillment. Each module includes **teaching segments** to ground you in the somatic principles, **guided practices** to give your body direct experience, and **reflection prompts** to deepen your integration. **This isn’t theory. It’s felt sense.** And it changes everything. ##### I have trauma around touch. Is this course safe for me? Yes—**and** I want to be clear that this course is not a replacement for trauma therapy. Everything here is designed with **trauma-informed awareness**. We begin with nervous system safety *first*—teaching your body to yield before we ever explore sensation. We emphasize **your sovereignty** at every step—your right to pause, to say no, to move at your own pace. The entire framework honors that touch ruptures must be repaired through **new experiences of safe, attuned, consensual touch**—not through force or rushing. That said, somatic work can stir material that’s been held in the body. If you have a history of trauma, I strongly encourage you to have **therapeutic support in place**—whether that’s a trauma-informed therapist, a Somatic Experiencing practitioner, or a trusted guide who can help you integrate what arises. The practices here are gentle, empowering, and designed to restore your body’s trust in touch—but **you are always in charge**. You decide what feels safe, what to explore, and when to pause. **Your body’s boundaries are sacred here.** ##### How does this course work with partners? While all practices can be done solo, the principles translate beautifully into **partnered exploration**. Once you understand how *your* nervous system moves through the four stages—Safety, Sovereignty, Sensation, Satiation—you can begin to communicate that to a partner: - “I need a few minutes to yield and feel safe before we touch.” - “Let me attune to what my body wants, and I’ll voice it clearly.” - “I want to practice receiving your touch without giving back right now.” - “I’m learning to stay with sensation until I feel complete—can we slow down?” When both partners understand this language, intimacy becomes less about performance and more about **nervous system attunement**—meeting each other in safety, curiosity, and presence. **The deepest intimacy happens when both bodies feel safe, sovereign, and satiated.** ##### How is this course structured to create lasting change? The sequence of this course mirrors **your nervous system’s natural blueprint for intimacy**. We don’t start with sensation or pleasure—we start with **Safety (Yielding)**. Because without safety, the body cannot open. When your nervous system learns to rest into support, everything else becomes possible. From that foundation, we move into **Sovereignty (Attuning & Voicing)**—teaching your body that its truth matters, that its yes and no are sacred, and that expressing desire is safe. Once safety and sovereignty are established, we enter **Sensation (Receiving)**—the capacity to allow goodness in, to feel pleasure without performance, to be nourished by touch and presence. And finally, we complete the cycle with **Satiation (Satiating & Releasing)**—where your body learns the exhale of “enough,” the peace of completion, and the trust that allows you to rest in fulfillment. **This sequence isn’t arbitrary—it’s developmental.** It follows the same movements your nervous system needed in infancy to learn that intimacy was safe. By completing these movements as an adult, you repair what was interrupted and reclaim what’s always been yours: **the capacity to feel safe, sovereign, and alive in your body.** --- ### [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/reclaimingyourpleasure/) **Published:** November 26, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Logo-red.png "| Rahi Chun") ### A Guided Path to Awakening Sensation, Healing Intimacy Patterns & Reclaiming Your Aliveness This course teaches pleasure restoration through somatic sexual healing practices #### For All Genders Seeking Greater Embodied Pleasure *Restore sensation, release old imprints, and awaken embodied pleasure through whole-body mapping. Trauma-aware, empowering, and accessible to all.* ## Your Body Was Built for Pleasure. It’s Time to Reclaim It. If you’ve felt desensitized, disconnected, disinterested, or unable to access the pleasure you know is possible… You are not broken. You are not behind. You are not alone. Your body simply learned to protect you. Reclaiming Your Pleasure shows you how to awaken sensation, release old patterns, and remember the embodied aliveness that’s always been yours. [Begin Reclaiming Your Pleasure](#registration) ## Pleasure Isn’t a Skill - It’s a Birthright. Reclaiming It Is Powerful. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/334b877-7801-5724-d0c1-4e163f1a1cb7_44.jpg "FullWomanBed | Rahi Chun") #### *When the body has endured:* - Old boundaries crossed - Chronic stress - Shame conditioning - Emotional suppression - Disconnection from the pelvis Pleasure shuts down not because something is wrong – but because your body is protecting you. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Rose_Pulsation.jpg "Sessions_Rose_Pulsation | Rahi Chun") #### *This course shows you how to:* - Re-open the pathways of sensation - Repair childhood ruptures involving touch - Rebuild safety inside your own body - Ignite responsive, empowered pleasure - Reclaim your embodied sovereignty This is awakening work. It is reclamation work. It is the return of your embodied aliveness. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ## Hi, I'm Rahi. #### *Certified Somatic Educator & Relational Intimacy Specialist* For over a decade, I’ve witnessed a truth that changes everything: **the obstacles to pleasure aren’t about what you don’t know—they’re about what your body learned long before you had words.** Through hundreds of private sessions, I’ve seen how our earliest experiences with touch and connection become our adult patterns. When needs weren’t consistently met, when bodies were shamed, when emerging sexuality was met with silence or harm—these moments live on as chronic tension, numbness, or the inability to voice desires or receive love. These aren’t failures. They’re your body’s brilliant protection. **And they can be healed.** My approach works directly with what talk therapy often can’t reach: the memories held in your tissues, your breath, your nervous system’s belief about whether pleasure is safe. I developed **The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—a framework showing how unmet childhood needs appear in adult intimacy, and how to repair them through the body. But this work can’t remain in private sessions alone. **Reclaiming Your Pleasure** is the comprehensive somatic journey that addresses everything from nervous system safety to genital awakening, from finding your voice to receiving deeply. This isn’t about techniques or performance—it’s about **repairing your relationship with your own body** through practices that release old patterns and restore what was interrupted – whether healing from past harm, deepening partnership intimacy, or simply ready to remember what your body has always known. **Your pleasure isn’t lost. It’s been waiting for the conditions that make it safe to return.** ## What you will learn … N #### Complete Framework: The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements Your developmental blueprint for healing ruptures and reclaiming embodied pleasure N #### Polyvagal Theory for Sensual Responsiveness Understand exactly how nervous system states affect arousal, sensation, and intimacy capacity N #### Comprehensive Full-Body Sensitivity Mapping Systematic exploration of all 11 erogenous zones with partnered and solo guidance N #### Complete Pelvic Mapping Practices Detailed genital mapping with education on anatomy, sensation, and pleasure potential N #### Empowering Voice & Choice Protocols Practice “Yes, No, Pause, Slow,”the Menu Approach, and One-Word Directives N #### 25+ Teaching Videos In-depth somatic wisdom on developmental trauma repair, nervous system reconditioning, and embodied sovereignty N #### 15+ Demonstration Videos Watch partnered and solo practices so you know exactly how to explore safely N #### Complete Pleasure Inquiries Workbook Reflection prompts for every module to deepen integration and self-awareness N #### Couples Co-Regulation Rituals Guided practices for down-regulating together and creating safety before intimacy N #### Lifetime Access to All Materials Return to practices whenever your body calls you back, with all future updates included [Reclaim Your Pleasure Now](#registration) ## This is for you, if you are ready to: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/RYP-Image.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") - Reconnect to your sensual self - Experience more ease, responsiveness, and turn-on - Release shame or internal freeze patterns - Deepen self-trust + body wisdom - Build erotic confidence - Experience pleasure free from performance **You do NOT need experience.** **You only need willingness.** ## By the end of this journey, you will: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/GenFlower-round.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") - Feel more sensation in your body - Understand what opens you and what shuts you down - Repair and release old patterns from childhood ruptures - Feel safer in your pleasure - Experience more aliveness, responsiveness, and turn-on - Trust your own embodied voice Most importantly — **you will have your pleasure back.** ## Transformational Benefits N **Release chronic guarding, numbness, and dissociation** — restore sensation to areas long held in protective shutdown N **Repair developmental ruptures somatically** — complete the interrupted movements from infancy that still shape your adult intimacy N **Reclaim your voice around desire and boundaries** — speak your authentic yes, no, and maybe with clarity and self-respect N **Transform nervous system patterns powerfully** — rewire the pathways between safety, sovereignty, sensation, and satiation N **Awaken pelvic pleasure** — discover erogenous capacities you didn’t know existed or had forgotten N **Experience true satiation and completion** — stay with pleasure until your body feels whole, fulfilled, and at peace [Start Your Journey Now](#registration) ## Your INvestMeNt ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Logo-red.png "Reclaiming your Pleasure - Fonts-s | Rahi Chun") ## Single Payment $555 [Register Now](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/ryp/) ## 2 Installments $285/2 [REGISTER NOW](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/ryp/) All courses are educational and therapeutic in nature. We do not provide sexual services, explicit sexual content, or pornography. Content is designed for adult learners (strictly 18+ only) seeking personal development, somatic education, and relationship wellness. [Return Policy ](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy/)| [Terms & Conditions ](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions/)| [Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy/) If you have any questions, [click here to send an email. ](mailto:rahi@somaticsexualwholeness.com) ## FrequeNtly Asked QuestioNs ##### How is this course different from other pleasure courses? Most sexuality education focuses on technique, performance, or anatomy as information. *Reclaiming Your Pleasure* approaches embodiment as a **developmental repair process**. We work with the actual somatic imprints formed in infancy and childhood—the moments when your nervous system learned whether intimacy was safe, whether your needs mattered, and whether your body was worthy of pleasure. This course is built on the **Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—a framework I developed in collaboration with Dr. Aline LaPierre (co-author of *Healing Developmental Trauma* and creator of NeuroAffective Touch). Rather than teaching you *what* to do, we guide your body through a sequence of **Yielding, Attuning, Voicing, Receiving, Satiating, and Releasing**—allowing your nervous system to complete what was interrupted early in life and to reclaim the pleasure that’s always been your birthright. This isn’t about learning new moves. It’s about **repairing the ruptures** that prevent you from feeling safe enough to fully inhabit your erotic aliveness. ##### Who is this course for? This journey is for anyone who senses that their relationship with pleasure, intimacy, or their own body could be **more alive, more easeful, more true**. You might be here because: - You struggle to feel sensation during intimacy, or find yourself numb or dissociated - You have difficulty voicing your desires or setting boundaries without guilt - You experience pleasure up to a certain threshold, then shut down or feel anxious - You carry shame, judgment, or disconnection from your genitals or sexuality - You’ve experienced developmental or sexual trauma and are ready for somatic repair - You want to deepen intimacy with a partner but don’t know how to ask for what you truly want - You’re simply curious about what **sovereign, embodied pleasure** actually feels like Whether you’re exploring solo or with a partner, this course meets you exactly where you are—with reverence, without pressure, and at your own pace. ##### I have a history of trauma. Is this course safe for me? Yes—*and* I want to be clear that **this course is not a replacement for therapy**. Everything here is designed through a **trauma-informed lens**, grounded in Polyvagal Theory and the understanding that healing happens when the nervous system feels safe. We begin by establishing **yielding and down-regulation** before ever moving into touch or activation. Every practice emphasizes **your voice, your choice, your timing**. That said, somatic work can bring forward unprocessed emotions or memories. I strongly encourage you to have a **support structure in place**—whether that’s a trauma-informed therapist, a Somatic Experiencing practitioner, or trusted friends who can hold space for your process. The course includes guidance on recognizing when to pause, when to seek support, and how to resource yourself throughout. You’re invited to take only what feels grounded for your system—and to honor the wisdom of your body’s boundaries at every step. ##### Do I need a partner to take this course? Not at all. In fact, **many of the most profound shifts happen through solo practice**. The entire course can be completed on your own, using self-touch, guided somatic contemplations, and reflective inquiry. The videos include both partnered and solo demonstrations. Solo exploration allows you to attune to your body’s desires without the added variable of another nervous system—and often reveals patterns that wouldn’t be visible in partnered intimacy. That said, if you *do* have a partner, the practices are designed to include them. We offer guidance on **one-way touch, consent practices, and co-regulation rituals**—all of which can deepen trust, communication, and erotic aliveness between you. Whether solo or partnered, the goal is the same: **to restore your body’s sovereignty and reclaim pleasure as your birthright**. ##### What will I actually do in this course? This is an **experiential, embodied journey**—not a lecture series. Each module includes: - **Somatic contemplations** (guided meditations that help you attune to sensation, emotion, and desire) - **Educational videos** that ground the practices in developmental psychology, Polyvagal Theory, and somatic wisdom - **Demo Videos of Hands-On Practices** such as full-body erogenous mapping, genital mapping, and exercises in voicing, receiving, and satiation - **Pleasure Inquiries** (reflective writing prompts to integrate your experiences) You’ll learn to **down-regulate your nervous system**, to **voice your body’s authentic desires**, and to **receive touch to the point of satiation**—so that old patterns of guarding, numbing, or performing can finally release. This isn’t intellectual learning. It’s **somatic reconditioning**—and it changes everything. ##### What's included in my enrollment? When you enroll in *Reclaiming Your Pleasure*, you receive: ✨ **Lifetime access** to all course materials—videos, audio practices, worksheets, and resources ✨ **3 comprehensive modules** (Welcome, Nervous System & Yielding, Voice & Choice, Genital Mapping) ✨ **15+ somatic practices and guided contemplations** ✨ **Downloadable Pleasure Inquiry workbooks** for each module ✨ **Private community space** for connection and integration ✨ **Direct email access** to me for questions throughout the journey This is not a passive course. It’s a **sacred container for transformation.** ##### Why is pelvic mapping so important? Because **you can’t voice what your body wants if you don’t yet know what sensations are possible**. Genital mapping is a process of **education, not performance**. We systematically explore each erogenous area—learning what kinds of touch awaken pleasure, what creates numbness, and what your body has been longing to feel but never had permission to ask for. This isn’t about achieving orgasm or reaching a goal. It’s about **building a vocabulary of sensation**—so that when you’re with yourself or a partner, you can advocate for your genitals with specificity, confidence, and reverence. Many people discover that areas they thought were “broken” or “unresponsive” simply needed **slower touch, more safety, or permission to feel**. When the nervous system yields and the body knows it’s in charge, erotic aliveness awakens naturally. ##### How is this course structured to create lasting change? The sequence of the course mirrors **the body’s natural developmental blueprint** for intimacy and connection. **Module 1: Yielding** — We begin by down-regulating the nervous system, so your body knows it’s safe to feel, to soften, to be held. Without this foundation, nothing else can root. **Module 2: Attuning, Voicing & Receiving** — From yielding, the body learns to listen for its desires, to speak them clearly, and to receive exactly what it asks for—to the point of satiation. This is where old patterns of “not enough” or “too much” begin to dissolve. **Module 3: Genital Mapping & Integration** — With safety and voice established, we explore the full erotic landscape of the genitals—not to perform, but to **reclaim relationship** with this sacred part of the body. Each stage completes an **interrupted developmental movement**—repairing what was left unmet in infancy and childhood. This is why the shifts are so profound and lasting. We’re not adding techniques on top of old wounds. **We’re healing the wounds themselves**. --- ### [Trainings](https://rahichun.com/trainings/) **Published:** November 6, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## TrAiniNgs ## Master Your Skills Supporting Your Clients ##### **Training for Professionals in Genital De-Armoring & Somatic Sexual Healing** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Training.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") *With Rahi Chun, Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* These trainings are designed to empower sexuality practitioners, and those interested in learning about space-holding for sexual healing, with the experiential understanding of how to resolve past ruptures obstructing aliveness in the body. As sexual energy is the life force guiding our creative, intuitive, and intimate lives, they provide a vital toolbox and skill-set for any health and wellness professional. ##### Empower your Skills. Embody your Mastery. ## FeAtured TrAiniNg ## The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring Certification Program #### For Healing Arts Professionals ###### Next Cohort Launch: January, 2027 ***A comprehensive training in trauma-informed genital de-armoring.*** *This professional certification journey combines somatic theory, embodied practice, clinical supervision, and community integration.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/9.jpg "CourseTitle | Rahi Chun") #### Includes: - Full access to the online “3 Keys” course - 5-day In-Person Training Immersion - Supervision for 12 Case Studies - Bi-monthly Group Mentorship Calls - 1:1 Supervision for Inquiries Unique to You Application + Interview Required Limited to 12 certified professionals [Apply for the next training here](https://forms.gle/GvVj9siT9mKuqqJp7) ## TraiNing with Rahi ChuN ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Portrait.png "Couple-Legs | Rahi Chun") With over 150+ students & pracitioners of genital de-armoring worldwide and two decades of **training in somatic therapies, trauma resolution, and sacred sexuality**, Rahi Chun brings a **grounded, deeply embodied approach** to healing and awakening. He is deeply inspired by fellow practitioners in the field and loves mentoring and advising sexuality and wellness professionals in this vital and evolving industry. [More About Rahi](https://rahichun.com/about/) *“Through the training, I learned the understory of how to hold de-armoring – to allow the body the space to be where it is at, and give the touch that is needed for shifts to occur. The hands-on modules were incredible and I loved seeing Rahi work. The depth of his knowledge and experience were so present throughout, and the sense of deep caring around a person’s experience and return to sexual wholeness was so felt.”* LeighWell Womb Care & Ritual --- ### [Awaken Your Body](https://rahichun.com/awaken-your-body/) **Published:** May 13, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** Three guided somatic audio practices for awakening sensation and returning to pleasure. Includes bonus video teachings from The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring, Reclaiming Your Pleasure, and Divine Union For Lovers. Body-based. Trauma-aware. $49. **Content:** # AWAKEN YOUR BODY ### Start to bring unhurried, curious attention to what the body is holding so you can open to release with pleasure. A Guided Somatic Audio Series [Get instant Access](#registration) #### **Three Somatic Practice Audios for Awakening Your Sensation and Returning to Pleasure** *Including bonus video-teachings from Rahi’s core courses* Lifetime Access · Instant Download · Fully Audio-Guided ## Some things don't resolve through understanding alone. Somatic work begins with the body — with sensation, with breath, with what’s actually present — rather than with interpretation or analysis. If any of these feel familiar, this series may offer a useful beginning: N You feel disconnected from sensation during intimacy — even when you want to feel more. N You sense there’s more available in your erotic life — but you don’t know how to access it. N Numbness, pain, or difficulty with orgasm have become familiar companions. N Your body guards or shuts down around sexual energy, even with someone you trust. N You’ve done emotional or trauma work, but the body hasn’t caught up yet. N You want to feel whole — embodied, alive, and at home in your sexuality. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ## Hi, I'm Rahi. #### *I’m a Certified Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, NeuroAffective Touch Practitioner, and the creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness — a body-based framework for somatic sexual healing, genital de-armoring, and erotic embodiment, offered from Los Angeles, CA and globally online.* For over a decade, I’ve worked one-on-one with women, men, and non-binary bodies navigating everything from developmental disembodiment to sexual trauma to a quiet, persistent sense of “there must be more.” I also teach genital de-armoring to pelvic floor therapists, somatic sex educators, and healing practitioners worldwide through »The 3 Keys to Genital De-Armoring« online course and live training. What I’ve learned — from hundreds of sessions, years of clinical study in *Polyvagal Theory*, *Sexological Bodywork*, and *Somatic Psychology* — is that the body has not forgotten how to feel. It has only learned to protect itself. *»Awaken Your Body«* is where that remembering begins. ## What's included ## Three practices. Bonus teachings. One body that's ready. Each audio is a complete somatic practice — not a lecture, not a course — but a guided, embodied experience you move through with your own body, at your own pace, in full privacy. 1 #### *Coming Home to Your Body* ###### ~13 minutes · Nervous System Settling Practice Most of us live above the neck. This practice is an unhurried invitation downward — through breath, through the quiet intelligence of sensation, into the territory of the body that has been patiently waiting. You are not asked to feel anything in particular. Only to notice what is already here, with the same quality of attention you might offer something genuinely precious. 2 #### *The Whole Body Awakens* ###### ~14 minutes · Erogenous awareness through touch The body is not a transportation device for the mind. It is a field of sensation — more nuanced, more alive, more responsive than most of us have ever been given the conditions to discover. In this practice, you bring your own hands to five regions of the body that carry an extraordinary capacity for sensation, and you listen — slowly, with innocent curiosity — for what is actually available here. Fully clothed. No agenda. Just the quiet revelation of what the body has been holding. 3 #### Pleasure Is Your Birthright ###### ~11 minutes · Somatic inquiry into reclaiming aliveness This practice asks questions the mind cannot answer — only the body can. Where is aliveness most present in you right now? Where is it most guarded? What might your body say, if it were allowed to speak, about its relationship to pleasure? From that inquiry, you are guided into a genital breathing practice: breath directed with reverence toward the pelvic region, not toward any outcome, but toward the simple act of arriving here — in this part of the body — with presence. Whatever is met is welcome. Nothing is required. #### Bonus Video Teachings Included - **From The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring:** Your sexual responsiveness is not primarily a function of desire, attraction, or willingness — it is a function of your nervous system state, responding to cues that often have nothing to do with the present moment. Rahi maps the direct correlations between nervous system activation patterns and the body’s capacity for arousal, sensation, and orgasmic response — a framework that explains why the body behaves the way it does. - **From Reclaiming Your Pleasure:** The patterns that show up in adult intimate life — the difficulty receiving, the performing, the sudden shutdown — didn’t begin in adulthood. Rahi introduces the Six Implicit Relational Imprints and their direct correlations to the Six Adult Intimacy Engagements: a framework that offers a way of understanding relational patterns not as personal failures, but as intelligent adaptations. - **From Divine Union For Lovers:** Most people have never had a guided, unhurried, educational exploration of the full erogenous landscape of the genitals — their distinct regions, their varying qualities of sensation, their capacity for pleasure beyond orgasm. This preview demonstrates the practice of genital mapping: a somatic process designed to restore sensation, expand pleasure capacity, and return sovereignty to the body-owner. [AWAKEN YOUR BODY Now](#registration) ## This is your right starting place if… N You’re new to somatic or body-based sexuality work and want a gentle, grounded entry point. N You’ve done emotional or therapeutic work and your body hasn’t fully caught up yet. N You experience numbness, disconnection, or difficulty with arousal, and you’re drawn to a body-based approach rather than a purely cognitive one. N You’re curious about genital de-armoring but want to understand the foundation before going deeper. N You want to feel more present, alive, and connected to your erotic nature — without pressure or performance. N You’re a pelvic floor or sexuality practitioner who wants a felt-sense understanding of these principles. You may be single, partnered, healing, or simply curious. All of you are welcome here. [Start Your Journey Now](#registration) ## Your INvestMeNt # Awaken Your Body ### A Guided Somatic Audio Series ## Three practices. Three previews. One beginning. Three complete audio practices and three bonus video teachings — yours permanently, at your own pace, in complete privacy. ## One-time payment · Instant access $49 - **Audio 1:** Coming Home to Your Body (13 min) - **Audio 2:** The Whole Body Awakens (14 min) - **Audio 3:** Pleasure Is Your Birthright (11 min) - **Bonus Video 1:** Intro teaching from »The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring« - **Bonus Video 2:** Teaching from »Reclaiming Your Pleasure« - **Bonus Video 3:** Teaching from »Divine Union For Lovers« [Yes - I'm Ready.](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/awaken/) Secure checkout. Lifetime access delivered immediately. All content is for adults 18+ only. All content is educational and therapeutic in nature. We do not provide sexual services, explicit sexual content, or pornography. This content is designed for adult learners (18+) seeking somatic education and personal development. [Refund Policy](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy) · [Terms & Conditions](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions) · [Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy) Questions? [Send Email here.](mailto:rahi@rahichun.com) ## FrequeNtly Asked QuestioNs ## What people ask before they begin … ##### Do I need any prior experience with somatic or body-based work? None at all. These audios are designed to be a first point of contact with this kind of practice. The pace is deliberately slow, the guidance is specific, and nothing is assumed. You only need a quiet space, a comfortable position, and your willingness to show up for your own body. ##### How explicit is the content? The audio practices are guided, embodied, and body-reverent – approached with complete reverence and zero performance pressure. The bonus video teachings are educational and designed to expand the healthy embodiment of our authentic life force. This is somatic education. All content is for adults 18+ only. ##### I have a history of sexual trauma. Is this safe for me? These practices are designed with trauma-aware pacing and full permission to pause, stop, or skip anything that doesn’t feel right. That said, somatic work can stir what the body has been holding, and I strongly encourage having therapeutic support in place – a trauma-informed therapist or somatic practitioner – if you have a significant trauma history. Your safety comes first, always. ##### How is this different from your longer courses? Awaken is an intentional starting point – three somatic inquiries that introduce you to this work at a felt-sense level. The full courses go significantly deeper: *The 3 Keys to Genital De-armoring* is a multi-module training interweaving four unique approaches to genital de-armoring with demo videos and extensive one-way and two-way somatic practices. *Reclaiming Your Pleasure* is a comprehensive immersive journey into how the nervous system and childhood touch imprints influence our adult intimacy behaviors and patterns. The bonus teachings in this series give you a taste of what those courses offer, so you’ll have a sense of what’s available when you’re ready to go further. ##### Can I use these practices with a partner? Audios 1 and 2 can be listened to together as a shared settling practice before intimacy. Audio 3 is best explored privately first, so each person has a felt-sense relationship with the practice before bringing it into partnered space. The Divine Union bonus teaching speaks directly to the depth and erotic attunement possible with a beloved. --- ### [Free Gift: Genital Breathing Meditation](https://rahichun.com/gift/) **Published:** May 11, 2026 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** # Genital Breathing Meditation A FREE GUIDED SOMATIC MEDITATION Bring conscious breath and awareness to the region most healing modalities never address — your genitals. Not as a sexual act. As an act of recognition. #### Enter your info to receive immediate access: ## Success! Name Email [ Send Me the Practice ](#) *Your information is held with complete privacy and reverence. You can unsubscribe at any time.* ## 16 Minutes to Embodied Presence Most healing modalities — therapy, yoga, breathwork, even bodywork — stop short of one region of the body. Not out of oversight. Out of conditioning. This 16-minute practice goes there. Not as a sexual act. As an act of attention. Of breath. Of recognition. Whether your relationship with your body is one of deep pleasure and aliveness, or one that still holds places of quiet distance — this practice meets you exactly where you are. It asks nothing of you but your breath and your presence. This is what somatic genital awareness actually feels like — not as a concept, but as a direct, embodied experience. [SEND ME THE PRACTICE](#optin) ## What You'll Experience ![Close-up of red and cream tulip petals forming a circular frame around the center](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/4.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") Every body arrives differently — and whatever you experience is information. There is no wrong response. - Some feel a subtle warmth or aliveness spreading through the pelvis - Some feel the breath moving into places that have felt held or frozen - Some feel nothing at first — and find that sitting with that, without judgment, is itself a kind of arrival - All have a direct experience of what somatic genital awareness actually feels like — in your body, not in your head - And all of it is valid. All of it is the practice. This is not a practice that promises sensation. It’s a practice that invites attention — and attention, over time, is how the body begins to remember. ## This practice is for you if: ![Abstract close-up of a vivid red-orange flower with curved petals against a pink background.](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/5.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") - You are sexually alive and curious what becomes possible when you bring even more conscious breath and awareness into the body’s most sensitive landscape - You sense there is a depth of sensation or aliveness still waiting to be explored — not because something is wrong, but because you are genuinely curious - You feel some disconnection from your body during intimacy, and want a gentle, private starting place - You’ve never done somatic work before and want to know what it actually feels like — in your body, not in theory - You already have a somatic or embodiment practice and want to bring that same quality of attention to your genitals Whatever draws you here — the body receives attention the same way. With gratitude. With response. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ## I'm Rahi Chun. #### *Certified Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness.* For over a decade I’ve worked with hundreds of individuals, guiding them back to responsiveness and aliveness through the specific practice of genital de-armoring and somatic sexual healing. This meditation distills the first thing I invite every client to experience: their own body, without agenda, without performance — just breath and presence. #### Enter your info to receive immediate access: ## Success! Name Email [ Send Me the Practice ](#) *Your information is held with complete privacy and reverence. You can unsubscribe at any time.* ## “The body doesn’t lie. It simply waits until you’re ready to listen.” ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/RC-Rahi-Chun-white.png "| Rahi Chun") © 2026 Rahi Chun — All Rights Reserved • [Refund Policy](/refund-policy) • [Terms & Conditions](/terms-and-conditions) • [Privacy Policy](/privacy-policy) • Design by [FullySeen](https://fullyseen.de/) --- ### [Rahi Chun](https://rahichun.com/about/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## About Rahi ChuN *Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* ![Rahi Chun certified somatic sex educator genital de-armoring specialist Los Angeles](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/DUFLRahiPicBluescaledFace.jpeg "DUFLRahiPicBluescaledFace | Rahi Chun") *Rahi Chun is a globally recognized practitioner, educator, and speaker at the intersection of somatic healing, sexual wellness, trauma integration, and spiritual embodiment. His fascination with attuning to and serving the body’s innate wisdom & life force is rooted in lived experience, academic rigor, and cross-cultural initiation.* *CA-State Certified Somatic Sex Educator with an MA in Spiritual Psychology. Certifications in Sexological Bodywork, Neuroaffective Touch, TRE, STREAM (Scar Tissue Remediation), Chi Nei Tsang & Karsai Nei Tsang & Pranic Healing.* *30+ years of Practice & Study/10+ years of Somatic Sexual Healing sessions/400+ Clients/150+ Genital De-armoring Students/20+ Countries of trained practitioners* ## eXteNded BiO ![Rahi Chun somatic healer early life healing through touch](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Rahi-mom3.jpg "Rahi & his Mother | Rahi Chun") ### *From Birth to Body Intelligence* Rahi’s journey into healing began at birth. Born with severely crooked legs, his mother—intuitively rejecting surgery—massaged his infant limbs nightly until they grew straight by age three. This foundational experience of healing through touch shaped his lifelong path. As a child, he massaged his parents after work, naturally attuning to the energy of the body and the language of conscious touch. ### *Somatic Healing, Sexual Energy, and the Body* Rahi’s formal study began in 1991 with The Body Electric School, training in breath, movement, sound, and touch to awaken sexual energy as a tool for healing. In 1993, he began studying Taoist energy cultivation with Master Mantak Chia, diving into the core principle that sexual and spiritual energy are expressions of the same life force. Concurrently, working professionally as a theater and film actor, Rahi experienced how specific embodiment states lead to greater access to various emotional and psychological characteristics and catharsis. From 2001 onward, Rahi immersed himself in transformational training with Margot Anand’s Love & Ecstasy training, Tantrika International, and became a certified Daka through Dr. Corynna Clark’s Daka/Dakini School. He continued his studies in India at Osho’s Advanced Therapy Training, learning Pulsation Therapy based on the work of Wilhelm Reich. ### *Rahi furthered his trauma-informed expertise with:* - TRE® (Trauma Release Exercises) with Dr. David Berceli & Nkem Ndefo - NeuroAffective Touch™ with Dr. Aline LaPierre - De-Armouring Arts Training with Susanne Roursgaard & De’an Matuka (Europe) - STREAM Postpartum Care with Dr. Ellen Heed & Kimberly Anne Johnson (Los Angeles) - Chi Nei Tsang & Karsai Nei Tsang with Master Mantak Chia, Khun Ni & “Coocky” Tassanee Boonsom (Thailand) He is a California state-certified Somatic Sex Educator via the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. ![Rahi Chun somatic sex educator spiritual embodiment](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Rahi_Flowers.jpg "Rahi Chun | Rahi Chun") ### *Developmental Psychology and the Mind* In 2003, Rahi experienced a deep reset at the Osho Meditation Center in Pune, India, participating in the Primal De-Conditioning process. This catalyzed his exploration into developmental trauma and mind-body healing. From 2004–2006, he earned a Master of Arts in Spiritual Psychology at the University of Santa Monica, blending transpersonal inquiry with therapeutic embodiment. He later served as adjunct faculty for seven years. His training includes: - Advanced Osho Therapy (Pulsation, Primal De-Conditioning, Family Constellations, and Osho Counseling) in India. - Family Constellations intensives with Svagito Liebermeister in Spain and Bert Hellinger in Austria. - Life Coach Certification (The Garden Company) - Faster EFT for Sexual Trauma (integrating NLP, EFT, hypnosis, and neuroplasticity tools) His particular interest and fascination involves how our past ruptures, remembered by the body from vulnerable developmental experiences, can be repaired through intentional touch, pleasure, and satiation experiences through »The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements.TM« ![Rahi Chun meditation spiritual journey somatic healing](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Rahi-monk.jpg "Rahi as a monk | Rahi Chun") ### *Meditation, Yoga and Spirit* Rahi’s spiritual journey includes early Zen and Vipassana meditation in Japan and Thailand. In 2004, he committed to Osho’s path, receiving the name Dhyan Rahi — “Meditation Traveler.” In 2009, he became a certified KRI Kundalini Yoga & Meditation instructor through Yoga West, and since 2015, has invited the guidance and wisdom of plant medicines to inform his life. ![Rahi Chun somatic sex educator Los Angeles sexual healing](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Rahi-500px.jpg "Rahi--500px | Rahi Chun") ### *Global Influence & Sacred Pilgrimage* Rahi has traveled extensively — trekking the Himalayas, visiting sacred sites in India, Tibet, Nepal, South Korea, Brazil, and Peru, and receiving blessings from H.H. the Dalai Lama, H.H. the Karmapa, indigenous shamans, and the Sikh Gurus. These global and transpersonal encounters have shaped a path of reverence, integration, and embodied awakening. #### *“Your body remembers. It knows how to heal, how to love, and how to be whole.”* *Rahi Chun* --- ### [Couple Sessions](https://rahichun.com/couple-sessions/) **Published:** October 27, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## SessioNs foR CoUples ## Relearn Your Bodies. Reclaim Your Desires. Remember Your Union. #### *Private in-person sessions or online guidance for couples – ready to deepen intimacy, awaken pleasure, and co-create Divine Union.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Ariel-round-DUFL-Logo.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") Spaces held by Rahi Chun & [Ariel Szabo](https://SacredMoonflower.com) [Inquire ](/contact) ## The HeaRt Of the WoRk ## The 8 Pillars of Intimacy *Every session is a sacred invitation to co-create Divine Union — To reawaken presence, pleasure, and trust throughout the body. And to learn the practices of extended lovemaking that move beyond habit into sacredness.* *Here, your bodies become the temple. Your touch becomes prayer. And your love becomes a living, breathing intelligence of erotic and spiritual connection.* [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8-Pillars.png "8 Pillars | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8-Pillars.png) *Based on the work of Ariel Szabo and [Sacredmoonflower.com](https://Sacredmoonflower.com)* ## What We EXpLoRe TogetheR ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Couple-Legs.jpg "Couple-Legs | Rahi Chun") ### *Emotional Intimacy* Learn how to identify, express, and honor your emotional needs, boundaries, and vulnerabilities. Build trust through authentic presence, active listening, and heartfelt responsiveness — the foundation for all sexual satisfaction. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Kiss.jpg "Kiss | Rahi Chun") ### *Erogenous IQ* Awaken your sensitivity and skill as lovers through one-way touch, breath, and tantric exploration. Learn how to attune to the subtle cues of your own and your partner’s body to amplify presence, arousal, and trust. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/43.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### Genital Mapping & Massage Learn how to feel, name, and request the exact kind of touch your genitals crave in each moment — and how to give that to your beloved. Through guided genital mapping, presence-based massage, and touch fluency, you’ll unlock healing, sensitivity, and deep intimacy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Boom.jpg "Boom | Rahi Chun") ### *Extended Lovemaking* Practice the art of riding waves of erotic energy with techniques that expand pleasure, deepen spiritual connection, and invite transcendence. Discover how to move as one in rhythm, breath, sound, and sensation — in lovemaking that heals, awakens, and nourishes both bodies and souls. “Rahi and Ariel are a sex therapy dream team. Rahi is passionate about his craft, yet also kind, gentle, and reassuring. Rahi made us feel safe in ways that I never knew I deserved, and his continued, gentle guidance sets us at ease as we go on our journey. Ariel is knowledgeable, yet never imposing. She is like a companion who has walked the road before us, and eager to point the way. We feel very comforted by her gentle presence!” Rick & Lucia G. “I attended Rahi and Ariel’s event and was deeply changed. My girlfriend and I went to a deep vulnerable place where we did amazing work. As a clinical psychologist, I understand the importance of the space-holder to create a safe place for people to go deep. Rahi and Ariel did just that. My partner and I did some profound healing around our inner children and there were concrete take-aways that we have been practicing. I highly recommend their workshops!” Dr. John H, PhD ## The Benefits ## The Four Phases of Transformation ### Releasing | Re-patterning | Realizing | Receiving ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Older-Couple-Embrace.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### *Releasing* *Let go of the stories, roles, and subconscious patterns you’ve carried into intimacy. Shed what no longer serves and breathe into a renewed sense of connection and curiosity.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Couple-Presence-2.jpg "Being-Touched | Rahi Chun") ### *Re-Patterning* *Replace outdated dynamics with conscious, embodied practices that bring aliveness, novelty, and emotional safety into your connection.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Couple-Eros.jpg "Couple-Eros | Rahi Chun") ### *Realizing* *Remember your innate erotic capacities. Reclaim the sensuality, sensitivity, and erotic power that lives within your bodies.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Kisstouch.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### *Receiving* *Receive each other. Receive life. Receive the sacred intelligence of your union as it moves through pleasure, communion, and divine wholeness.* Ariel and Rahi’s facilitation was a perfect blend of very high level skill and expertise, and a beautifully tender and inviting container. The tantric weaving between their energies was effortless. I felt deeply held in their presence from start to finish that energetically opened me in ways that no other ceremony ever had before. Their solid presence guided us into a deep self-inquiry, an exploration that helped me touch upon one of my core issues in relationships – trust. I was able to meet that part of myself in the loving arms of my partner and allow my inner child to experience healthy co-regulation because of this impeccably held container. Lana K. ## Each Couple’s Journey is Unique *Your path is sacred — and guided by your shared intentions and desires.* *Whether you’re rekindling connection, deepening erotic exploration, or healing from past ruptures, each journey is custom-tailored to your readiness and truth.* ##### Begin Your Journey Into Divine Union. [Online Course](https://rahichun.com/divineunionforlovers/) [ 2:2 VIP Intensive](https://forms.gle/PCW6Byu28Kr9YDLk9) ## FreQuentLy Asked QuestioNs ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/W_Drawing_freeflow_400px.jpg "W_Drawing_freeflow_400px | Rahi Chun") ##### Is this right for us? **The truest answer lives in what you both feel as you take in the invitation on this page.** That said, couples who find the most profound transformation through this work share certain qualities: - **You’re both willing**—even if one of you is more enthusiastic, there’s genuine consent and curiosity from both partners - **You sense there’s more available** in your intimate connection, whether that’s deeper pleasure, healing old wounds, or accessing new dimensions of erotic energy - **You’re ready to be witnessed** in your vulnerability, your blocks, your desires, and your edge - **You value your partnership enough** to invest in its deepening, not just its maintenance This work serves couples across the spectrum: those navigating specific challenges (pain, mismatched desire, trauma responses) and those whose sex life is already good but who long for it to become truly extraordinary. **If you’re both willing to show up and be seen, this work can meet you wherever you are.** ##### What if we're in different places - one of us is more ready or interested than the other? **This is actually one of the most common dynamics, and we work with it directly.** Here’s what matters: both partners need to genuinely consent to being in the room, even if one of you is more excited or convinced about the value. Reluctant participation creates more armoring, not less. **What we’ve found:** Often, the “less interested” partner discovers something profound once they’re actually in the space—their body responds to the safety, presence, and lack of agenda in ways that surprise them. Or they realize their hesitation was actually protective wisdom that gets honored, not overridden. We might also discover that individual sessions for one or both partners first creates the foundation for deeper couples work later. There’s no single right path. **The key is honest conversation between you both about what you’re each feeling, and what you need to feel safe saying yes.** ##### What actually happens in a Couples Session? **Every session is uniquely designed for what you’re navigating, but here’s the general structure:** From the zoom intake, we will have understood the experiences from each of your developmental years influencing current intimacy patterns, behaviors and desires. **When you arrive, we begin with conversation.** We’ll ask about what’s alive for you both—what you’re longing for, what’s feeling stuck, where tension or disconnection lives. This helps us understand what your nervous systems need and what practices will serve you. **Then we move into embodied work.** This might include: - Guided touch practices where you explore giving and receiving with new awareness - Intimacy exercises that help you attune to each other’s nervous systems - Breathwork to access deeper states and release armoring - Coaching on consent, boundaries, and desire communication in real-time - Genital dearmouring work (if appropriate and desired) - Full body and/or genital mapping that expands your capacity for pleasure **We’re present throughout**—tracking, guiding, adjusting the pace, creating the container of safety that allows you both to drop deeper than you might alone. **Sessions typically run 3–4 hours** to allow time for nervous systems to settle, defenses to soften, and real shifts to occur. ##### How is this different from couples or sex therapy? **Couples therapy/sex therapy** works primarily with conversation, psychological insight, and behavioral strategies. You talk about your patterns, gain understanding, and develop new communication tools. **Somatic sexual wholeness work** addresses what lives *in the body*—the armoring, nervous system responses, and blocked energy that talking alone can’t fully reach. We work directly with touch, breath, sensation, and the somatic patterns that shape your intimate life. **Example:** In therapy, you might explore why you shut down during sex and develop insight about your attachment style. In somatic work, your body learns what safe, attuned touch actually feels like, and your nervous system begins to release the armoring that causes the shutdown in the first place. **Many couples do both simultaneously**—therapy for relational dynamics and communication, somatic work for embodied healing and expanded capacity. They’re complementary, not competing approaches. ##### What if we're not having sex at all right now? **This is exactly why many couples seek this work, and you’re not alone.** When sex has become fraught, painful, disappointing, or disconnected, the pattern of avoidance can become deeply entrenched. Trying to “just do it more” often reinforces the very dynamics you’re trying to heal. **What this work offers:** - **A way back to touch that doesn’t have to lead to sex.** We rebuild the foundation of pleasure, safety, and presence without the pressure of intercourse. - **Understanding what’s actually blocking intimacy**—whether that’s unprocessed resentment, shame, nervous system dysregulation, physical armoring, or mismatched desire. - **New somatic experiences** that show your bodies what’s possible when there’s no agenda, no performance, just presence and attunement. Many couples discover that once the pressure dissolves and safety is established, natural desire and curiosity begin to return—not because they’re forcing it, but because their bodies finally feel permission to want. ##### What if things are "fine" but we want more? **This might be the most important question to honor.** There’s a pervasive myth that you should only seek support when things are broken. But what if you’re being called toward something more alive, more expansive, more deeply pleasurable—not because anything is wrong, but because you sense what’s possible? **Couples who come from this place often experience:** - **Activation of dormant erotic energy** they didn’t know was available - **Access to altered states** through conscious breathwork and energy practices - **New dimensions of intimacy**—spiritual, energetic, ecstatic - **A deepening of presence** that transforms even “ordinary” touch into something sacred **You don’t need to be in crisis to deserve extraordinary intimacy.** Choosing to invest in your connection when it’s already good is how you create something truly exceptional. ##### What if one of us has sexual trauma? **Trauma-informed practice is foundational to everything I do.** If one or both of you are carrying sexual trauma, this work can be profoundly healing—*and* it requires deep attunement, proper pacing, and often collaboration with a trauma therapist. **What trauma-informed couples work looks like:** - **The traumatized partner’s nervous system sets the pace.** We never override protective responses or push through resistance. - **We work with the partner’s experience too**—their feelings of helplessness, confusion, or fear around “doing it wrong.” - **Consent becomes a living practice**, not a one-time conversation. You learn to track and honor moment-to-moment yes/no/maybe in both your systems. - **We address how trauma shows up between you**—the shutdown, the fawning, the hypervigilance, the disconnection—with compassion for both of you. **The goal is never to “get over it” or “fix” the traumatized partner.** The goal is to create new somatic experiences of safety, agency, and pleasure that live alongside the trauma history and gradually expand what feels possible. ##### How many sessions should we plan for? **Most couples work with me for 4–8 sessions, though this varies significantly based on your intentions.** Here’s what shapes the timeline: - **If you’re addressing a specific challenge** (like painful intercourse, desire discrepancy, or preparing for a major life transition), you might find resolution in 3–5 focused sessions. - **If you’re healing relational trauma, deep armoring, or long-standing patterns**, your nervous systems will need more time to release and rewire—often 6–10 sessions or more. - **If you’re exploring expanded states, tantric practices, or the spiritual dimensions of sexuality**, the work becomes an ongoing deepening rather than a finite “fix.” **After your initial session, we’ll have much clearer sense** of what your bodies are showing us, what timeline serves your integration, and what structure best supports your journey. You’re never locked in—we adjust as we go based on what emerges. ##### What if we're exploring non-monogamy, polyamory, or alternative relationship structures? **All relationship structures are welcome here.** What matters isn’t the form your intimacy takes, but the consciousness, consent, and presence you bring to it. **This work serves non-traditional partnerships by:** - Helping you develop the somatic awareness and communication skills that ethical non-monogamy requires - Addressing jealousy, insecurity, or comparison as nervous system responses, not just mental constructs - Supporting you in accessing your own wholeness so you’re not seeking completion through others - Deepening the intimacy within your primary partnership even as you explore connections with others The principles remain the same: safety, attunement, consent, and honoring what’s true in each body. ##### How do we get started with you? **Begin with a free 20-minute consultation call.** During this conversation, you’ll share what’s alive for you both, what you’re hoping to experience or heal, and any questions or concerns. I’ll offer initial thoughts about whether this work is a good fit and what structure might serve you. If we all feel a yes, we’ll schedule an intake session where we dive deeper into your history, intentions, and what your bodies are ready for. Reach me via the Contact page of this site. 🙂 --- ### [Divine Union For Lovers](https://rahichun.com/divineunionforlovers/) **Published:** November 24, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/LogoIcon-with-Light.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") ### Relational Skills For Deep Sensual Connection, Extended Lovemaking, and Pleasure-based Healing A Self-Paced Online Education OR with 3 Zoom Calls for Tailored Guidance Specific to Your Needs OR with In-Person Retreat with Ariel & Rahi ## Do you desire intimate connection where you feel seen, heard, and met? ## Do you desire to learn the secrets to extended lovemaking? ## Do you desire to learn practices for embodied healing & wholeness? [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/43240f3-737c-de-d175-346c361bac5_7ad63fbd-15be-4d3c-9211-7b398b987056.jpg "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Logo-simple.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") ### This thorough and in-depth educational course supports you to cultivate the relational skills necessary for Divine Union and shares a wealth of valuable guidance, video demos, and trauma-informed touch practices for ecstatic connection and extended lovemaking. #### Drawing upon a rich menu of embodied practices from the fields of somatic education, sexological bodywork, and tantra… Explore practices in communication, vulnerability, shadow work, trauma resolution, and the use of extended states of aliveness to expand & heal. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/70d35f-ff8-03b0-417-1d04fe2aaa00_facesenergymovement-1.jpg "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/DU-Gold-forlightBG.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") A union rooted in **interdependence** that satiates our primal need and desire for connection and aliveness. A union that occurs when two souls intertwine, each in their **wholeness**, with **transparency** and **vulnerability** in service to love. A transformative merging of energy supported through extended states of aliveness – where Vital Qi energy invites altered states of consciousness **for healing and expansion**. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Logo-with-Light-3.png "| Rahi Chun") # “Rahi and Ariel are a sex therapy dream team” *Rick & Lucia G.* [Learn More](#registration) ## Course Contents ## 6 Modules including N The 8 Pillars of Intimacy & Consensual Relating N Nervous System Correlations to Intimacy and Connection N Channelling Life Force Energy for Resolving Wounds N One-way Touch Demos and Practices to Expand Sensory Awareness N Unlocking Your Sensory Potential Without Penetration N Edging and Tuning Into Subtle Sensations for Extended Lovemaking N Goal-Oriented Intimacy vs Conscious & Connected Meditative Lovemaking N Surrendering Into the Mysteries of Your Alchemical Union ## Optional Tailored Guidance & Live Access with Ariel & Rahi via Zoom Calls and/or Live In-Person Retreats N Receive support & guidance specific to your needs, histories, and desires. ## Bonus Practices N Tantric Breathing Exercises to Expand Sexual Energy N Taoist Practice for Circulating Life Force Energies N Exercises for Attuning to Exactly What The Body Wants and Does Not Want N Maximizing Health & Wellness for Extended Lovemaking N Guidance for All Genders over 40 N How to Release Tension From Pelvic Floor Muscles Each of 6 educational modules build upon the others to cultivate the relational intimacy and trust necessary for experiencing ecstatic connection, practicing extended lovemaking, and creating a relational container for divine union. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8eabb23-77ed-16d7-d75d-78d22d2280a_pablo-merchan-montes-zwvz3OjbJ3g-unsplash-1.jpg "Prajna_850_2150 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/587ecb-b52e-e812-e8f7-ea0b20ddac5_Lesbian_Kiss.jpg "Prajna_850_2161 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/67ae671-731a-4ca0-1024-dbad6d56f70_34.jpg "Prajna_850_2697 | Rahi Chun") [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/8.png "| Rahi Chun") “Rahi and Ariel are a sex therapy dream team. Rahi is passionate about his craft, yet also kind, gentle, and reassuring. Rahi made us feel safe in ways that I never knew I deserved, and his continued, gentle guidance sets us at ease as we go on our journey. Ariel is knowledgeable, yet never imposing. She is like a companion who has walked the road before us, and eager to point the way. We feel very comforted by her gentle presence!” **Rick & Lucia G**. ## You’ll Receive Video Demos & Guidance on: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/23.jpg "| Rahi Chun") N Sensual practices for slowing down, pausing, and tuning in N Genital Mapping for All Bodies N Exploring the 11 erogenous zones N Expanding Ecstatic Energy N Non-Penetrative Ways to Experience More Pleasure N Ancient Taoist and Tantric techniques to circulate Life Force energy ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/9.png "| Rahi Chun") “Ariel and Rahi’s facilitation was a perfect blend of very high level skill and expertise, and a beautifully tender and inviting container. The tantric weaving between their energies was effortless. I felt deeply held in their presence from start to finish that energetically opened me in ways that no other ceremony ever had before. Their solid presence guided us into a deep self-inquiry, an exploration that helped me touch upon one of my core issues in relationships – trust. I was able to meet that part of myself in the loving arms of my partner and allow my inner child to experience healthy co-regulation because of this impeccably held container.” **Lana K.** [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ## You’ll Learn How To … N Create a new and expanded sex life with your short- or long-term partner N Build trust and safety within yourself and in the space between you N Set a container for divine union where you both feel seen, heard, and met N Attune to what you and your partner truly desire N Deepen your skills in both giving and receiving touch N Use pleasure to heal old wounds, grief, and shame N Transform old patterns and relational dynamics N Practice intimacy as a form of meditation ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/a66a5-85a-316c-c2fa-32e570ef43e_42.jpg "Prajna_850_2150 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/334b877-7801-5724-d0c1-4e163f1a1cb7_44.jpg "Prajna_850_2161 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/a341c3c-7227-4452-15ee-0a0ae0e4788_sonne.jpg "Prajna_850_2697 | Rahi Chun") [Yes, I want in!](#registration) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Logo-simple.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "| Rahi Chun") ## Rahi Chun Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, and Creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness Rahi’s offering, **Somatic Sexual Wholeness**, developed organically as a body of work holding space for repairing ruptures within the evolution of our sexual embodiment sequentially – first addressing developmental wounds, then boundary violations during adolescence, before resolving those in the pelvic bowl from adulthood. By following his curiosity about the diverse approaches to releasing chronic guarding patterns from the tissues and fascia of the genitalia, he developed an expertise in the field of genital dearmouring and teaches it online via his signature course, “The 3 Keys to Genital Dearmouring for Expanding and Reclaiming Pleasure” and in workshops and retreats worldwide. He is trained and certified in a variety of touch-based sexual and non-sexual healing modalities such as Neuroaffective Touch, Dearmouring Arts, the Taoist practices of Chi Nei Tsang and Karsai Nei Tsang, TRE, the Wheel of Consent and Sexological Bodywork. His Master’s in Psychology involved a particular interest in understanding how our initial touch imprints from childhood and adolescence influence our adult sexual intimacy patterns, behaviors, and experiences. He currently offers 1:1 & couples sessions, as well as retreats & workshops in Santa Monica, California and worldwide. [Learn more here.](/about) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/3.png "| Rahi Chun") ## Ariel Szabo Somatic Sex Educator, Sexological Bodyworker, Psychedelic Therapist, and Creator of Sacred MoonFlower Ariel is a sacred sexuality practitioner and somatic psychedelic therapist. She works with pleasure and plants to guide individuals and couples back to their bodies, into ecstatic connection, and toward fully embodied, soul-led living. Her approach blends the sacred arts of sexual awakening, relational healing, and nervous system repair—rooted in her own journey from numbness and disconnection to living an orgasmic, embodied life. Ariel holds space with reverence, deep attunement, and trust in the body’s innate wisdom to heal, awaken, and transform. She weaves together years of study with plant medicines and Indigenous wisdom keepers in Peru alongside her training in somatic sex education, sexological bodywork, and psychedelic therapy. Her work is devoted to restoring eros as a source of vitality, belonging, and remembrance. Ariel currently offers 1:1 and couples sessions, ceremonies, and immersive experiences in Santa Monica, California, and facilitates plant medicine retreats in Peru. [Learn more here.](https://www.sacredmoonflower.com) ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/9.png "| Rahi Chun") “I attended Rahi and Ariel’s event and was deeply changed. My girlfriend and I went to a deep vulnerable place where we did amazing work. As a clinical psychologist, I understand the importance of the space-holder to create a safe place for people to go deep. Rahi and Ariel did just that. My partner and I did some profound healing around our inner children and there were concrete take-aways that we have been practicing. I highly recommend their workshops!” **Dr. John H.**, PhD ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/e3dc17-7fd8-4bca-3833-4bb6556046_36.jpg "Prajna_850_2150 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/ed14b-550-4a73-e418-75f3b864582c_40.jpg "Prajna_850_2161 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/5ba1662-3013-7f40-4831-fb1cdc404ff_37.jpg "Prajna_850_2697 | Rahi Chun") ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/LogoIcon-with-Light.png "| Rahi Chun") Move at your own pace and in the privacy of your own space with optional tiers of contact and guidance with Ariel & Rahi ## Self-Paced Online $997 - Move at your own pace in the privacy of your own home based on your own rhythms - or consider Tailored Guidance with Zoom Calls or Tailored Hands-On Guidance in Live Retreats [Register Now](https://divineunionforlovers.mykajabi.com/offers/C8eazvvt/checkout) ## Tailored Virtual Guidance $1997 - **Move at your own pace in the privacy of your own home based on your own rhythms** - **PLUS: 3 tailored guidance 60-min. zoom sessions** with either Ariel or Rahi included. - ***MOST POPULAR*** [SCHEDULE CALL](https://forms.gle/PCW6Byu28Kr9YDLk9) ## Tailored In-Person Guidance $9997 - **Move at your own pace in the privacy of your own home based on your own rhythms** - **3 x 2:2 tailored guidance 60-min. zoom sessions** with both Ariel & Rahi - **PLUS: 3 x 2:2 In-Person Sessions** with both Ariel & Rahi holding space for your Divine Union [APPLY NOW](https://forms.gle/PCW6Byu28Kr9YDLk9) All courses are educational and therapeutic in nature. We do not provide sexual services, explicit sexual content, or pornography. Content is designed for adult learners (strictly 18+ only) seeking personal development, somatic education, and relationship wellness. [Refund Policy](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy/)/[Terms & Conditions](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions/)/[Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy/) If you have any questions, want info about BIPOC Scholarship: [Click here to send an email. ](mailto:rahi@somaticsexualwholeness.com) ## Frequently Asked Questions ##### I’ve explored tantra already, what’s different about this course? This course is a unique interweaving of wisdom and disciplines from many influences beyond tantra, such as trauma-informed touch, containers that understand the role the nervous system plays in sexual arousal, taoist practices for extended love-making, one-way touch and whole body/genital mapping from somatic sex education, and our own unique experiences for cultivating an environment for erotic alchemy to transform consciousness. We’ve curated the best of the best and are sharing from a place of lived practice and devotional service. ##### Can individuals take this or do I have to be in a couple? Divine Union is designed to enrich and expand both individuals and lovers. There will be different benefits taking it individually or with a partner, as the exercises and practices we share involve working with a partner – either one’s beloved or a practice partner/trusted friend. Taking the course as an individual would be a rich experience in preparation for Divine Union, and the material could then be returned to with a lover for a new experience. ##### Is this course appropriate for practitioners? This course is designed for both couples and professionals alike. For professionals, whether fellow somatic sex educators, couples therapists, or MFTs, the wide array of intimacy and extended love-making practices would provide an entirely new toolbox with which to serve your clients. Additionally, the trauma-informed approaches would benefit a wide range of clients at different stages of embodiment. ##### Is this LGBQT friendly? Divine Union speaks to the spiritual, energetic, sexual, emotional, mental and cosmic connection available to ALL beings, and we have endeavored to create a course that is mindful of all bodies, sexual orientations and identities. In module 4, we share practices from our own experiences as a vulva- and penis-owner – as a jumping off point for you to discover what works for your body and genital configurations. When we speak about vaginal penetration, we are referring to penetration with a penis or finger/s. We also recognize that for a great majority of queer folx – non-penetrative lovemaking is not a novel idea or practice. However, we believe that all lovers can benefit from learning how to slow down to discover what else is possible, beyond what you’ve already experienced. To deepen skills in self-attunement, as well as benefit from knowledge on the nervous system’s correlations to sexual patterns and responsiveness, one-way touch practices, and using sexual energy to heal past wounds and expand consciousness. ##### Is this course for non-monogamous couples or erotic friends? Yes. This course is specifically called Divine Union “for Lovers” because lovers can come in all kinds of relational configurations. And whether you have one lover or many lovers, there is always something sacred to hold between the unique union of any set of lovers coming together. ##### Is there a live retreat for my lover and I to explore these practices in-person with your guidance? Yes. Divine Union For Lovers Live is being held in Santa Monica, CA between August 1-3 and again from September 19-21. All details and application can be found here: tba ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/LogoIcon-with-Light.png "Divine Union Logo with simple Icon + Name | Rahi Chun") Be first to get notified of where and when Divine Union for Lovers’ Afternoon, 1-Day Ceremonies and Multi-Day Events will be offered next. [June 5-7: 3-day retreat ](https://divineunionforlovers.mykajabi.com/divineunion-retreat) --- ### [Privacy Policy](https://rahichun.com/privacy-policy/) **Published:** December 30, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** Effective Date: December 29, 2025 Rahi Chun LLC (“we,” “us,” or “our”) respects your privacy and is committed to protecting your personal information. This Privacy Policy explains how information is collected, used, and protected when you visit or make a purchase from our website. 1\. Information We Collect We may collect the following information when you visit our site or purchase a product: Name Email address Billing and payment information IP address and browser information Purchase history Communication preferences Payment information is processed securely by third-party payment processors. We do not store or have access to your full payment details. 2\. How We Use Your Information We use your information to: Process transactions Deliver digital products Communicate with you about your purchase Provide customer support Send educational or informational emails (if you opt in) Improve our website and services We do not sell, rent, or share your personal information with third parties for marketing purposes. 3\. Third-Party Services We may use trusted third-party services to operate our business, including: Payment processors (such as PayPal or Authorize.net) Email service providers Website hosting and analytics tools These providers only receive the information necessary to perform their services and are required to protect your data. 4\. Cookies & Tracking Technologies Our website may use cookies or similar technologies to: Improve user experience Understand website usage Support basic analytics You may disable cookies through your browser settings if you prefer. 5\. Data Security We take reasonable steps to protect your personal information using industry-standard security measures. However, no method of transmission over the internet is 100% secure, and we cannot guarantee absolute security. 6\. Your Rights You may: Request access to your personal data Request correction or deletion of your information Opt out of marketing communications at any time To make a request, please contact us using the information below. 7\. Children’s Privacy This website and its content are intended for adults only. We do not knowingly collect personal information from individuals under the age of 18. 8\. Changes to This Policy We may update this Privacy Policy from time to time. Any changes will be reflected on this page with an updated effective date. 9\. Contact Information If you have questions about this Privacy Policy or how your data is handled, please contact: Rahi Chun LLC Email: Rahi@RahiChun.com Website: https://rahichun.com --- ### [Terms & Conditions](https://rahichun.com/terms-and-conditions/) **Published:** December 30, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Terms & Conditions By accessing or purchasing any program, course, or service from Rahi Chun LLC, you agree to the following terms: ### 1. Educational Purpose Only All content is provided for educational and informational purposes only and is not medical, psychological, therapeutic, or legal advice. Participation does not create a therapist–client, medical, or professional relationship. ### 2. Personal Responsibility & Assumption of Risk Somatic and embodiment practices may evoke physical, emotional, or psychological responses. By participating, you acknowledge that you do so voluntarily and accept full responsibility for your well-being, choices, and outcomes. ### 3. Digital Products & Access All products are delivered digitally. Access is granted immediately upon purchase. No physical goods are shipped unless explicitly stated. ### 4. License & Intellectual Property Your purchase grants you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to access the materials for your own use only. You may not share login credentials, reproduce, distribute, copy, or resell any content. ### 5. Age Requirement You must be 18 years or older to purchase or participate. ### 6. Refund Policy Refunds may be requested within 7 days of purchase, provided no more than 15% of the course content has been accessed. Access metrics are determined by our platform records. We reserve the right to deny refunds in cases of excessive use or policy abuse. Access is revoked upon refund. ### 7. Community Conduct We reserve the right to remove participants from programs or communities for disruptive, abusive, or inappropriate behavior without refund. ### 8. Chargebacks You agree to contact us directly to resolve any concerns before initiating a chargeback or payment dispute. ### 9. Limitation of Liability To the fullest extent permitted by law, Rahi Chun LLC shall not be liable for any direct, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages arising from participation in our programs. ### 10. Governing Law These terms are governed by the laws of the State of California. ### 11. Contact Rahi@RahiChun.com --- ### [Refund Policy](https://rahichun.com/refund-policy/) **Published:** December 30, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Refund Policy We want you to feel safe and confident in your purchase. Because immediate access to digital educational content is provided, we offer a limited 7-day refund window. • Requests must be submitted within 7 days • No more than 15% of content may be accessed • Refunds issued to original payment method • Access is revoked upon refund • After 7 days, all sales are final If something isn’t working, please reach out. We’re happy to support you. If you have questions, please contact us at: Rahi@RahiChun.com Important Notes: All programs are educational and self-directed. Access to course materials is revoked upon refund. Results vary based on individual participation. --- ### [Clients’ Experiences](https://rahichun.com/clients-experiences/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** Pamelah, 60’s, shares the importance of addressing sexual memories, stored emotions and patterns where they reside... **Content:** ## ClieNtS’ EXpeRieNceS [](#) **Allana Pratt** Intimacy Expert/Author **Allana** shares how releasing trauma held in her body has lead to an embodied safety in receiving. [](#) **Dr. Birch Story** Doctor of Oriental Medicine **Dr. Story** shares her journey of re-inhabiting her body and pleasure after healing from cervical cancer. [](#) **Lauren Brim** Sexual Wellness Coach/Author **Lauren** shares how releasing emotions held in her pelvis facilitated her natural home-birth experience. The work we did together was remarkable and life-changing. You are such a tuned-in listener – really hearing not just my words, but the underlying messages of my body – with a powerful presence and impeccable boundaries. **The TRE, the NeuroAffective Touch, the slow, careful, attentive Active Consent, and the pelvic bodywork helped me** **access emotion, clear nervous tension, gave me an experience of being completely nurtured and cared for, safe and relaxed with my nervous system (finally!) at peace, and opened up so much more pleasure which has connected through my whole body.** Our work together has been to this date one of the greatest investments I have ever made into my health and well-being. Dr. Suzanne SchillerBurbank, CA I’ve rarely ever met anyone who has as much mind/body awareness and insights to healing as Rahi does. You will be in competent, mature and trusting hands when you work with him. He is extremely bright, professional, and completely committed to finding effective ways to help his clients heal. Dr. Eric B. RobinsMind/Body Medicine Expert [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_06.jpg "SSW_Header_06 | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_06.jpg) My session with Rahi was honestly one of the most profound bodywork sessions I have ever received. As a Tantra teacher and Dakini, I am quite selective about who I choose to work with and I was blown away. Rahi deeply honors trauma and held deep presence as he listened to my body. He touched into places of sacred stillness that my body craved in such an expert way. Time stood still as my tears melted years of emotional and physical pain away. **The integrity and intentionality during each moment of the session allowed me to drop into the safety of being deeply held.** Caroline CarringtonFounder, Sarasa Tantra I felt so much energy move throughout my body and I felt my container expand to hold all of this energy… **I felt I had permission to really let my sexuality and my pleasure move through me in the way that it wanted to move through me….** to feel the depth, power and limitlessness of my energy/life force – to understand that I am a conduit for very strong, very deep, very transformative energy – and for me to have a space where I could let that energy run without holding it back…. Jonathan K.Pacific Palisades, CA [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/3_SSW_Header_Man-1.jpg "| Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/3_SSW_Header_Man-1.jpg) Before meeting Rahi, I did not know how much I did not know about my own body and it’s needs and wants. I discovered my body needs slow, deep, and still. Slower than I could ever imagine – it’s a place of deep arousal, and where I receive incredible pleasure. I didn’t realize it then, but Rahi was helping me build a new neural pathway. One that said “It is safe for you to receive; your body, your heart, and your Yoni are the Guides; and you can stop or pause at any time.” …. what has really blossomed is my sexual relationship with my husband of 18 years. I am more able to ask for what I really want – and he wants to give me what I really want. Our sex is slower and deeper and much more satisfying and fulfilling for both of us. But, also this has translated into asking for what I really want from him outside of sex which has deepened our level of intimacy and connection. Alexandra A. Chicago, IL I am a tantra teacher. In tantra, we train ourselves to move the sexual energy up the spine and circulate it through all the chakras, meridians, organs and glands so it can rejuvenate the body and create transcendent spiritual experiences. **Rahi showed me where I had been bypassing my greater capacity for fully embodied pleasure, presence and fulfillment**, by being too addicted to transcendent sexual energy and experiences. He taught me to keep my attention on the sensations present in the pelvis and vagina. The energy still rose in me but I felt connected to the root, grounded and very present in the sensations at the same time. **Rahi holds an impeccable space for somatic sexual healing to unfold, resolve and release.** His touch is totally wise and conscious and he stayed right with me, tracking my energy. He coached me through sensations until I was able to honor and integrate them. **I have felt stronger, more grounded and more vital ever since.** Leah Z.Palos Verdes, CA I felt like a delicate flower gracefully and slowly opening. Sensations included, full body tremoring, tingling, bright greenish white light at third eye, heavy breath, laughter, release, snake and serpentine stone images at mind’s eye, flower petals opening, LOVE, and finally REBIRTH! In the subsequent days I had greater internal physical body awareness including how the mouth connects to the pelvis, the subtle differences between left and right sides of certain body parts, and the evolution of pain or neutral sensation to pleasure. Whether one has undergone sexual trauma, I think Somatic Sexual Wholeness should be experienced by all not only for deep healing in the sacral chakra, but also for greater body awareness, for heightened sensitivity at the seed of creation, and for amplification of one’s life force. Lindsey KimuraLos Angeles, CA [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_07.jpg "SSW_Header_07 | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_07.jpg) Upon first contact with Rahi, I felt the gates to my sexual freedom creaking open. We talked about my upbringing, my past, my patterns and my pain. No stone was left unturned and it felt so good to verbally release these demons! Next we did a series of exercises to release fear stored in the body. Finally, we went into his healing room where I was fully briefed about what to expect. The session started with a sensual massage that taught me how to stay present to sensation and receive pleasure. When we got to the inner pelvic work, there were tears. Deep, wracking sobs. Years of pain surfaced and eventually left my body. My body was then alive with energy – I felt electric currents vibrating in my arms and legs, and waves of pleasure undulating through me. It was amazing! Subsequent to my session, I no longer felt ashamed or afraid, didn’t label and punish myself. Orgasms are no longer elusive or only obtained by imagining porn or imagery that I’m ashamed of. Intimacy with my partner has vastly improved as we both feel increased arousal and closeness. Possibilities seem endless. My body is beautiful, healthy and alive. I hope other women give themselves the gift of freedom through this amazing work. I can be reached for further discussion if anyone has questions about this process, but I will end by saying this: if you’re serious about healing and self acceptance, DO THIS WORK! Paula W. Seattle, WA In our very first session, I felt strands of energy begin to connect from my pelvis up to my heart chakra, and from there, pulsating energy moving through my upper shoulders and head…. In my continued work with Rahi, I am noticing that I feel receptive… it is quite a sensation to feel my power circulating through my body, and life responding to me gently, abundantly, generously, rather than me having to ‘pursue it, hit it, make it.’ As a woman, I would call this the emergence of my true feminine power…. I feel Rahi is on the cutting edge of a wave of healing that is sweeping the Western world. Because of the safety, wisdom and expertise Rahi provides, I feel safe taking back my feminine sexual power, desire and expression without apology. Thank YOU, Rahi. Words don’t do justice to the gratitude and happiness I feel in my heart for the gift of feminine power that you have helped me receive and accept fully. I am discovering what is possible when your body, heart and mind are one seamless unit of consciousness. Baeth DavisVenice, CA As a COO of a hi-tech company, I am in a male-dominated business environment and my work is highly analytical. I started seeing traces of masculinity etched in me physically, thus I started balancing my life through music and dancing. However, I knew there was something else – my body didn’t respond with pleasure during intimacy. I had this deep yearning to feel more alive, yet was hesitant on the approach until I was introduced to Rahi and Somatic Sexual Wholeness. There is a very important need that is not being filled by medicine or talk therapy. I experience my sessions as a commitment to self-discovery, healing, and the celebration of innate femininity. It’s such an important aspect for women professionals to take the time to nourish our body and enrich our soul from the core. It takes courage to embark on this journey, but the resulting deep connection to the body and soul is invaluable. I am deeply grateful to Rahi for this transformative process. Dr. Helen Chen San Diego, CA [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_03.jpg "SSW_Header_03 | Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSW_Header_03.jpg) It’s not only sexual issues that your work heals, but long-held issues of seeking approval and love from my mother dissolved after our session. So much guilt and shame I grew up with affecting my adult life just….gone. I can see that I am no longer seeking validation from the outside. And the release of anger I had towards men has been cathartic…. All of the love that I have been seeking my whole life has been here inside of me all along…. Your hands are magical, but your non-judgmental way and heartfelt listening makes it divine. I am happy to speak with anyone who is curious or interested in having a session with you. Such powerful work should be for everyone. Marietta V.H. Zurich, Switzerland I now begin to understand the connection between sexual energy and motivation…. Sexual energy feels like the grease that helps the chakra wheels glide and turn without obstruction. It feels like an integrating force in the body. It is no longer just “sexual energy.” I am redefining it as an essential ingredient in my every move, every decision, every interaction…. When you linked the sexual energy that was flowing in me with universal and human love, it felt exactly right… that was what I was feeling in my body. Love. Abby G. Topanga, CA …the foremost purpose was to literally open my body and to unlock the energy that was held there. Also for me to dispel false myths that my body is not ready for intimacy, for me to see that my body is in fact ready, it is my mind that gets in the way…. an additional purpose was to release held areas of shame about my body. As a sum total, it’s been an initiation into a new experience of my own body and sexual energy – my body is ready, my energy is deep and powerful. Eduardo M.San Francisco, CA Having been a Doctor of Oriental Medicine for 20 years, as well as personally navigating and taming cervical cancer for the last 8, I have done it all. Nothing has been as profound however, as the healing experiences I have had working with Rahi Chun. **I have experienced a fundamental resurrection. My whole pelvic floor has come alive, more than it ever was, even before the 6 surgeries.** Frozen traumatic energy has been liberated and transmuted, fueling enormous amounts of motivation, confidence, stamina, and creativity. **Working with Rahi has allowed me to reclaim libido for my own life, the fuel of my courage**, the ability to tell the difference between disassociated neutrality and active surrender, and the radiant independent pleasure of my own sex. Intimacy in my relationship is now glowing with authenticity and free form flow. The transformations have been rapid and the change sustained. The journey will not be what you can imagine and has a price above rubies. Dr. Birch StorySanta Monica, CA [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2_SSW_Header_RedSwirl.jpg "| Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2_SSW_Header_RedSwirl.jpg) **My yoni is thrilled that I can feel and listen to her more deeply. She is thrilled to be awakened and recharged. I feel like I am actually connecting to the central power spot of my whole being now.** There is much more available to me than I have ever experienced. Your touch and our intention turned the lights on and brought me back to life. **It was a homecoming…. turning the lights on in every room of my feminine core, and being in my full presence and capacity**. It was enormously pleasurable in new ways, as well as electric and empowering for my energy field. The emotion that I felt at the end of the session was joy and gratitude for deeper communion with myself, for coming home to myself. LaraLos Angeles, CA [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/6_SSW_Headers_2016_GayCouple-1.jpg "| Rahi Chun")](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/6_SSW_Headers_2016_GayCouple-1.jpg) **For 30 years I’ve engaged in deep spiritual and transformational work. Body~Mind~Spirit. Yet my sessions with Rahi led me to releasing core wounds keeping me from experiencing both subtle and profound sensual and sexual pleasures.** Now I experience more sensation, aliveness, and joy in love-making, and feel lighter and more pleasure and wholeness in my entire body. Rahi has the ability to hold an incredibly safe container with honesty, integrity and truth. **It is a powerful process and time for women to free ourselves from anything that is holding back pleasure and personal power.** Andrea HylenFounder and Executive Director, Heal My Voice ## Interested in working with Rahi? [Connect with Rahi](https://rahichun.com/contact/) --- ### [Reclaiming Your Pleasure](https://rahichun.com/reclaiming-your-pleasure/) **Published:** December 19, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Logo-red.png "| Rahi Chun") ### A Guided Path to Awakening Sensation, Healing Intimacy Patterns & Reclaiming Your Erotic Aliveness Self-Paced Somatic Healing Journey #### For All Genders Seeking Greater Embodied Pleasure *Restore sensation, release old imprints, and awaken embodied pleasure through whole-body and genital mapping. Trauma-aware, empowering, and accessible to all.* ## Your Body Was Built for Pleasure. It’s Time to Reclaim It. If you’ve felt desensitized, disconnected, disinterested, or unable to access the pleasure you know is possible… You are not broken. You are not behind. You are not alone. Your body simply learned to protect you. Reclaiming Your Pleasure shows you how to awaken sensation, release old patterns, and remember the erotic aliveness that’s always been yours. [Begin Reclaiming Your Pleasure](#registration) ## Pleasure Isn’t a Skill - It’s a Birthright. Reclaiming It Is Powerful. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/FullWomanBed.jpg "FullWomanBed | Rahi Chun") #### *When the body has endured:* - Old boundaries crossed - Chronic stress - Shame conditioning - Emotional suppression - Disconnection from the pelvis or genitals Pleasure shuts down not because something is wrong – but because your body is protecting you. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Rose_Pulsation.jpg "Sessions_Rose_Pulsation | Rahi Chun") #### *This course shows you how to:* - Re-open the pathways of sensation - Repair childhood ruptures involving touch - Rebuild safety inside your own body - Ignite responsive, empowered pleasure - Reclaim your erotic sovereignty This is awakening work. It is reclamation work. It is the return of your erotic self. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/1.png "Rahi-s | Rahi Chun") ## Hi, I'm Rahi. #### *Certified Somatic Sex Educator & Genital De-Armoring Specialist* For over a decade, I’ve witnessed a truth that changes everything: **the obstacles to pleasure aren’t about what you don’t know—they’re about what your body learned long before you had words.** Through hundreds of private sessions, I’ve seen how our earliest experiences with touch and connection become our adult patterns. When needs weren’t consistently met, when bodies were shamed, when emerging sexuality was met with silence or harm—these moments live on as chronic tension, numbness, or the inability to voice desires or receive love. These aren’t failures. They’re your body’s brilliant protection. **And they can be healed.** My approach works directly with what talk therapy often can’t reach: the memories held in your tissues, your breath, your nervous system’s belief about whether pleasure is safe. I developed **The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—a framework showing how unmet childhood needs appear in adult intimacy, and how to repair them through the body. But this work can’t remain in private sessions alone. **Reclaiming Your Pleasure** is the comprehensive somatic journey that addresses everything from nervous system safety to genital awakening, from finding your voice to receiving deeply. This isn’t about techniques or performance—it’s about **repairing your relationship with your own body** through practices that release old patterns and restore what was interrupted – whether healing from past harm, deepening partnership intimacy, or simply ready to remember what your body has always known. **Your pleasure isn’t lost. It’s been waiting for the conditions that make it safe to return.** ## What you will learn … N #### Complete Framework: The Six Adult Intimacy Engagements Your developmental blueprint for healing ruptures and reclaiming embodied pleasure N #### Polyvagal Theory for Sexual Responsiveness Understand exactly how nervous system states affect arousal, sensation, and intimacy capacity N #### Comprehensive Full-Body Erogenous Mapping Systematic exploration of all 11 erogenous zones with partnered and solo guidance N #### Complete Genital Mapping Practices Detailed vulva/vagina and penis mapping with education on anatomy, sensation, and pleasure potential N #### Empowering Voice & Choice Protocols Practice “Yes, No, Pause, Slow,”the Menu Approach, and One-Word Directives N #### 25+ Teaching Videos In-depth somatic wisdom on developmental trauma repair, nervous system reconditioning, and embodied sovereignty N #### 15+ Demonstration Videos Watch partnered and solo practices so you know exactly how to explore safely N #### Complete Pleasure Inquiries Workbook Reflection prompts for every module to deepen integration and self-awareness N #### Couples Co-Regulation Rituals Guided practices for down-regulating together and creating safety before intimacy N #### Lifetime Access to All Materials Return to practices whenever your body calls you back, with all future updates included [Reclaim Your Pleasure Now](#registration) ## This is for you, if you are ready to: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Body-sw.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") - Reconnect to your sensual self - Experience more ease, responsiveness, and turn-on - Release shame or internal freeze patterns - Deepen self-trust + body wisdom - Build erotic confidence - Experience pleasure free from performance **You do NOT need experience.** **You only need willingness.** ## By the end of this journey, you will: ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/GenFlower-round.png "Body sw | Rahi Chun") - Feel more sensation in your body - Understand what opens you and what shuts you down - Repair and release old patterns from childhood ruptures - Feel safer in your pleasure - Experience more aliveness, responsiveness, and turn-on - Trust your own erotic voice Most importantly — **you will have your pleasure back.** ## Transformational Benefits N **Release chronic guarding, numbness, and dissociation** — restore sensation to areas long held in protective shutdown N **Repair developmental ruptures somatically** — complete the interrupted movements from infancy that still shape your adult intimacy N **Reclaim your voice around desire and boundaries** — speak your authentic yes, no, and maybe with clarity and self-respect N **Transform nervous system patterns powerfully** — rewire the pathways between safety, sovereignty, sensation, and satiation N **Awaken genital pleasure** — discover erogenous capacities you didn’t know existed or had forgotten N **Experience true satiation and completion** — stay with pleasure until your body feels whole, fulfilled, and at peace [Start Your Journey Now](#registration) ## Your INvestMeNt ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/RYP-Logo-red.png "Reclaiming your Pleasure - Fonts-s | Rahi Chun") ## Single Payment $555 [Register Now](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/reclaimingyourpleasure-course/) ## 2 Installments $285/2 [REGISTER NOW](https://rahichun.thrivecart.com/reclaimingyourpleasure-course/) If you have any questions, [click here to send an email. ](mailto:rahi@somaticsexualwholeness.com) ## FrequeNtly Asked QuestioNs ##### How is this course different from other sexuality or pleasure courses? Most sexuality education focuses on technique, performance, or anatomy as information. *Reclaiming Your Pleasure* approaches embodiment as a **developmental repair process**. We work with the actual somatic imprints formed in infancy and childhood—the moments when your nervous system learned whether intimacy was safe, whether your needs mattered, and whether your body was worthy of pleasure. This course is built on the **Six Adult Intimacy Engagements**—a framework I developed in collaboration with Dr. Aline LaPierre (co-author of *Healing Developmental Trauma* and creator of NeuroAffective Touch). Rather than teaching you *what* to do, we guide your body through a sequence of **Yielding, Attuning, Voicing, Receiving, Satiating, and Releasing**—allowing your nervous system to complete what was interrupted early in life and to reclaim the pleasure that’s always been your birthright. This isn’t about learning new moves. It’s about **repairing the ruptures** that prevent you from feeling safe enough to fully inhabit your erotic aliveness. ##### Who is this course for? This journey is for anyone who senses that their relationship with pleasure, intimacy, or their own body could be **more alive, more easeful, more true**. You might be here because: - You struggle to feel sensation during intimacy, or find yourself numb or dissociated - You have difficulty voicing your desires or setting boundaries without guilt - You experience pleasure up to a certain threshold, then shut down or feel anxious - You carry shame, judgment, or disconnection from your genitals or sexuality - You’ve experienced developmental or sexual trauma and are ready for somatic repair - You want to deepen intimacy with a partner but don’t know how to ask for what you truly want - You’re simply curious about what **sovereign, embodied pleasure** actually feels like Whether you’re exploring solo or with a partner, this course meets you exactly where you are—with reverence, without pressure, and at your own pace. ##### I have a history of trauma. Is this course safe for me? Yes—*and* I want to be clear that **this course is not a replacement for therapy**. Everything here is designed through a **trauma-informed lens**, grounded in Polyvagal Theory and the understanding that healing happens when the nervous system feels safe. We begin by establishing **yielding and down-regulation** before ever moving into touch or activation. Every practice emphasizes **your voice, your choice, your timing**. That said, somatic work can bring forward unprocessed emotions or memories. I strongly encourage you to have a **support structure in place**—whether that’s a trauma-informed therapist, a Somatic Experiencing practitioner, or trusted friends who can hold space for your process. The course includes guidance on recognizing when to pause, when to seek support, and how to resource yourself throughout. You’re invited to take only what feels grounded for your system—and to honor the wisdom of your body’s boundaries at every step. ##### Do I need a partner to take this course? Not at all. In fact, **many of the most profound shifts happen through solo practice**. The entire course can be completed on your own, using self-touch, guided somatic contemplations, and reflective inquiry. The videos include both partnered and solo demonstrations. Solo exploration allows you to attune to your body’s desires without the added variable of another nervous system—and often reveals patterns that wouldn’t be visible in partnered intimacy. That said, if you *do* have a partner, the practices are designed to include them. We offer guidance on **one-way touch, consent practices, and co-regulation rituals**—all of which can deepen trust, communication, and erotic aliveness between you. Whether solo or partnered, the goal is the same: **to restore your body’s sovereignty and reclaim pleasure as your birthright**. ##### What will I actually do in this course? This is an **experiential, embodied journey**—not a lecture series. Each module includes: - **Somatic contemplations** (guided meditations that help you attune to sensation, emotion, and desire) - **Educational videos** that ground the practices in developmental psychology, Polyvagal Theory, and somatic wisdom - **Demo Videos of Hands-On Practices** such as full-body erogenous mapping, genital mapping, and exercises in voicing, receiving, and satiation - **Pleasure Inquiries** (reflective writing prompts to integrate your experiences) You’ll learn to **down-regulate your nervous system**, to **voice your body’s authentic desires**, and to **receive touch to the point of satiation**—so that old patterns of guarding, numbing, or performing can finally release. This isn’t intellectual learning. It’s **somatic reconditioning**—and it changes everything. ##### Will this course help with sexual performance issues? Yes—but not in the way you might expect. Most “performance issues”—difficulty with arousal, orgasm, erection, or sensation—stem from **nervous system dysregulation, unconscious guarding, or dissociation**. When the body doesn’t feel safe, it can’t open to pleasure. Rather than treating symptoms, we address the **root causes**: unresolved developmental imprints, chronic tension held in the tissues, the body’s learned belief that intimacy isn’t safe, or that pleasure will be interrupted before satiation. By restoring **yielding, attuning, voicing, and receiving**, your body learns that it’s safe to feel—and when safety is present, pleasure flows naturally. Performance pressure dissolves when the body remembers it was designed to be **nourished by intimacy**, not evaluated by it. ##### What's included in my enrollment? When you enroll in *Reclaiming Your Pleasure*, you receive: ✨ **Lifetime access** to all course materials—videos, audio practices, worksheets, and resources ✨ **3 comprehensive modules** (Welcome, Nervous System & Yielding, Voice & Choice, Genital Mapping) ✨ **15+ somatic practices and guided contemplations** ✨ **Downloadable Pleasure Inquiry workbooks** for each module ✨ **Private community space** for connection and integration ✨ **Direct email access** to me for questions throughout the journey This is not a passive course. It’s a **sacred container for transformation.** ##### Why is genital mapping so important? Because **you can’t voice what your body wants if you don’t yet know what sensations are possible**. Genital mapping is a process of **education, not performance**. We systematically explore each erogenous area—learning what kinds of touch awaken pleasure, what creates numbness, and what your body has been longing to feel but never had permission to ask for. This isn’t about achieving orgasm or reaching a goal. It’s about **building a vocabulary of sensation**—so that when you’re with yourself or a partner, you can advocate for your genitals with specificity, confidence, and reverence. Many people discover that areas they thought were “broken” or “unresponsive” simply needed **slower touch, more safety, or permission to feel**. When the nervous system yields and the body knows it’s in charge, erotic aliveness awakens naturally. ##### How is this course structured to create lasting change? The sequence of the course mirrors **the body’s natural developmental blueprint** for intimacy and connection. **Module 1: Yielding** — We begin by down-regulating the nervous system, so your body knows it’s safe to feel, to soften, to be held. Without this foundation, nothing else can root. **Module 2: Attuning, Voicing & Receiving** — From yielding, the body learns to listen for its desires, to speak them clearly, and to receive exactly what it asks for—to the point of satiation. This is where old patterns of “not enough” or “too much” begin to dissolve. **Module 3: Genital Mapping & Integration** — With safety and voice established, we explore the full erotic landscape of the genitals—not to perform, but to **reclaim relationship** with this sacred part of the body. Each stage completes an **interrupted developmental movement**—repairing what was left unmet in infancy and childhood. This is why the shifts are so profound and lasting. We’re not adding techniques on top of old wounds. **We’re healing the wounds themselves**. --- ### [Membership](https://rahichun.com/membership/) **Published:** November 6, 2025 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## MembeRship ## The Embodied Wholeness Tribe #### A Community for … ###### *Bi-monthly Live-Calls with Rahi & Community Practice Labs* #### Includes: • Live Q&A sessions • Focussed Case Studies • Guest teacher workshops • Community connection space [Join Wait List: Rahi@SomaticSexualWholeness.com](#) ## Joining Rahi in Community ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Rahi-Portrait.png "Couple-Legs | Rahi Chun") Over the past decade of teaching sexuality practitioners worldwide, I’ve noticed the tremendous need and lack of peer-to-peer spaces for us to share professional inquiries, personal challenges as they relate to our sexuality practices, and opportunities to continue growing and learning from each other. The Embodied Wholeness Tribe is designed for sexuality practitioners of all stripes to learn from each other, laugh at our shared epiphanies, and grow together as a community. [More About Rahi](https://rahichun.com/about/) “I felt that I was getting a state-of-the-art deep-dive from the best of the best in the field. I could feel Rahi’s love and excitement towards this work, which made it such a pleasure to learn from him. I have rarely felt so much respect from a teacher towards his students.” Susanne HillmanPhD. Sex, Love and Relationship Coach --- ### [Resources](https://rahichun.com/resources/) **Published:** September 28, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Excerpt:** The keys to expanding healthy sexual life force energy throughout the body, naturally also serve as keys to healthy conscious living; Presence, Breath, Sound Vibration and Movement/Body Awareness. **Content:** ## RecoMmeNdAtioNs ## Keys to Expanding Sexual Life Force Energy ##### *naturally also serve as keys to healthy conscious living: Presence, Breath, Sound Vibration and Movement/Body Awareness.* *To check out the sources, please follow the yellow marked links in the text below…* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/resources_yoga.jpg "Resources | Rahi Chun") #### *Meditation* - [**Vipassana:** ](https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index)Goenka approach practiced in the US over 10-day silent retreats - **[Wat Ram Poeng:](http://www.watrampoeng.net)** Offers a non-Goenka approach in beautiful Northern Thailand - [**Osho Active Meditations**](http://www.osho.com/meditate): These highly effective and cleansing meditations are designed to consciously express and experience repressed feelings and emotions. #### *Breath* - **[Quantum Light Breath:](http://www.quantumlightbreath.com)** Meditation facilitated by **Breath Master Teacher Jeru** - **[Osho’s Chakra Breathing Meditation: ](http://www.osho.com/meditate/active-meditations/chakra-breathing-meditation)**Powerful meditation clearing chakras - **[Wim Hof Method](https://www.wimhofmethod.com/)**: Breathing/Cold Therapy/Commitment In Los Angeles, we are blessed with these wonderful breath gatherings: - **[“The Gong Guy”](http://gongflowyoga.com)** who also combines Breath Work with Sound Healing - **[The Breath Center:](http://thebreathcenter.com)** Powerful breath experiences with wonderful community #### *Movement* - [**5 Rhythms Movement** ](http://www.5rhythms.com)developed by **Gabrielle Roth** facilitates a process of surrendering to your body’s deepest expressions with gatherings worldwide. In Los Angeles, the body is honored and celebrated with an abundance of movement-related classes, workshops and gatherings every day of the week. - **[Movinground:](http://www.movinground.com)** **Jo Cobbett** holds a beautiful space for meditation-in-motion and embodied ecstatic dance. Links to dance/movement gatherings all over L.A. and CA can be found on her website under “connect/other dance offerings” - **Kate Shela**: Shamanic Healer and Teacher holding an exquisite space weekly for deeply sacred and unique 5 rhythms experiences - **[Julian Walker:](http://julianwalkeryoga.com/dance-tribe)** Facilitates an ecstatic expression of the soul via the body twice weekly with a mixture of funky and powerful dance grooves and rhythms. #### *Sound* - **[Healing Sounds:](https://www.healingsounds.com)** **Jonathan Goldman’s** music for opening chakras - **[Bhakti Yoga Shala:](http://bhaktiyogashala.com)** Open your Throat Chakra with Kirtans in LA **Sound baths** are taking over Los Angeles!! - **[Gong Flow Yoga:](http://gongflowyoga.com) Guy Douglas** holds a beautiful space, often with Ana (below) for group sound baths and private sessions. - **[Shakti Sound Bath:](http://shaktisoundbath.com)** **Ana Netanel** is the brightest light ever!! Her 75-minute multiple-gong baths make for a very happy body temple. #### *Releasing Trauma from the Body* - **[“What Resets Our Nervous System After Trauma”](../wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Peter-Levine-Interview.pdf)** – Somatic Therapy pioneer **Dr. Peter Levine** describes his 9 steps which closely resembles the stages used in Somatic Sexual Wholeness. - [**NeuroAffective Touch:**](https://neuroaffectivetouch.com/) As developed by **Dr. Aline LaPierre**, co-author of “Healing Developmental Trauma,” engaging the body “on its own terms” to heal early attachment, developmental and relational trauma. - [**DeArmouring Arts**](https://www.dearmouringarts.com): In-depth training and experience of Body De-Armouring and Sexual Healing via 7 and 11-day retreats in Europe and U.S. by **De’an Matuka** and **Sanna Sanita**. - **[TRE:](http://traumaprevention.com)** Tension & Trauma Releasing Exercises as developed by **Dr. David Berceli** - [**Lumos Transforms:** ](http://lumostransforms.com/)A wonderful & skilled community of practitioners led by **Nkem Ndefo** facilitating the safe release of tension and trauma from the nervous system. - **[NICABM:](http://www.nicabm.com)** The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine is a terrific resource with webinar series/online courses about new brain science using mindfulness in healing the brain & body from past memories. ## Women's Sexuality and Health ##### *The recommended sites below all incorporate body, heart, mind and spirit and the full spectrum of sexuality, from healing, health, fully embodied orgasm, pleasure and relationships.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/resources_womenshealth_400px.jpg "resources_womenshealth_400px | Rahi Chun") - **[Lauren Brim ](http://www.healthnow.am)**is a Sexual Wellness Coach, former doula & mid-wife, and author of The New Rules of Sex and The New American Family. Her understanding of women’s sexual health, holistic well-being, and Motherhood is outstanding. - **[Eva Clay](https://evaclay.com/)‘s** delicious and dynamic synergy as a sacred sexuality teacher, neuroscience professor and psychotherapist shines through her embodied heart/mind/sexuality programs for women and couples. - **[Kimberly Ann Johnson](https://www.magamama.com/)** combines her unique expertise as a trauma-informed Sexological Bodyworker, Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, former doula, and author of “The Fourth Trimester” focussing on postpartum care. Her excellent Magamama embodiment programs and podcast are here. - [**Violet Lange**](https://violetlange.com/) invites women to embody their pleasure and power in love, dating and relationships via her paradigm-shfiting programs for successful, spiritual women. - [**Pamela Samuelson**](http://embodyworkla.com/)‘s body of Body awareness combines deep dive knowledge of muscular, physiological, energetic, and emotional pelvic anatomy in its repair. - [**Devi Ward**](http://deviwardtantra.com) teaches holistic sex and Tibetan tantra from a deeply spiritual womb. An inspired teacher with a variety of programs for women, men and couples and a weekly “Sex is Medicine” radio show covering holistic sex education. - **[Steamy Chick](http://www.steamychick.com/):** The world’s leading expert on vaginal steaming, now compiling quantitative data on the indisputable benefits of this centuries-old practice resolving a wide range of issues from irregular periods, heavy bleeding or cramping, infections, cysts/fibroids, fertility challenges, hot flashes, postpartum healing, etc. #### *The Jade Egg* All clients receive a Jade Egg made from 100% Canadian nephrite jade, or a Black Obsidian Egg made of the highest quality for home-play. The long list of sexual and health benefits available from this ancient practice includes increased pleasure and lubrication, strengthened internal organs, healing trauma, increased dexterity of vaginal muscles, and a deepening psycho-spiritual connection between yoni & heart. - **[Ancient Taoist Practices ](http://www.multi-orgasmic.com/female_healing.html)**for the Jade Egg and Breast Massage/Ovarian Breathing**.** - [**Saida Desilets’**](https://vk250.isrefer.com/go/jadeeggmastery/dhyanrahi) PhD-thesis focussed on the benefits of this wonderful practice shared in her [**free e-book**](https://vk250.isrefer.com/go/jadeegg/dhyanrahi). For an in-depth exploration of her expertise, her comprehensive book “Emergence of the Sensual Woman” is an exellent resourse. - [**Shashi Solluna**](http://www.sollunatantra.com/jade-eggs.html) also studied with Taoist Master Mantak Chia and Tantra pioneer Margot Anand offering her Tao-Tantra fusion of the Jade Egg practice. *Please be aware that the quality of stone or crystal is a factor in the benefits received in this practice.* #### *Goddess/Sacred Feminine* - **[The Mother House of the Goddess](http://themotherhouseofthegoddess.com)**: “A Gathering Place for Goddess Spirituality” - **[Mystery School of the Goddess](http://mysteryschoolofthegoddess.net):** Online Courses for Sacred Feminine Studies, Wisdom Practices, and the Healing Arts #### *Tantra* - **[Margot Anand](http://margotanand.com)** (pioneering author of The Art of Sexual Ecstasy and whose LET training serves as a foundation for SSW) teaches around the world, and her teachings are also offered through [**Sky Dancing Institute**](http://www.skydancingtantra.org) in Northern CA. Tantra based in Los Angeles - [**Dawn Cartwright**](http://dawncartwright.com) was my first tantra teacher in 2000. I have known and admired the ways in which she lives, loves and teaches from her tantric life practices and experiences. Highly recommended. #### *Taoist Sexual Energy Practices* - **[The Tao of Sexology](https://www.uploady.com/#!/download/L_1FVGIoTuJ/Z1Dpai67T96ZJxcH)** by **Dr. Stephen T. Chang** is a classic must-read for anyone interested in sexual wholeness and well-being practices. - **[Mantak Chia:](http://mantakchia.com:)** Master of Taoist Energy Healing, Health and Cultivation practices, and author of a wide range of now Taoist modern classics. #### *Quodoushka Sexual Practices* - **[Shamanic Dearmoring:](http://www.shamanicdearmoring.com:)** Ancient sexual practices and wisdom from the Native American heritage in sexual de-armoring and healing. #### *Masculine/Feminine Sexual Polarity and Relationships* - **[David Deida ](http://www.deida.info)**is a master of communicating the core sexual energetic polarities in relationships and the dance between Masculine and Feminine. - **[John Wineland ](http://www.johnwineland.com)**assisted Deida for many years and has created his own powerful body of work as an intimacy coach and workshop leader. - [**Judith Claire and Frank Wiegers**](http://topgunlove.com) are happily married sex & relationship experts and authors of “So THAT’S Why They Do That! Men, Women and Their Hormones.” They integrate their mastery of the role gender-driven behavior plays in the dance of intimacy with their tantric background and decades of counseling experience. ## Sexual Healing, Wholeness and Education ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/resources_womenshealth_400px1.jpg "resources_womenshealth_400px | Rahi Chun") - **[The Association of Certified Sexological Bodyworkers](http://sexologicalbodyworkers.org)** represents Somatic Sex Educators/Sexologists world-wide with a Practitioner Directory to assist in locating a facilitator near you. - **[Trusted Bodywork](https://www.trustedbodywork.com)** is an international platform for sex counseling, certified tantra massage and sex coaching listing hundreds of certified sexuality practitioners with various specialties all over the world. - **[Dr. Ellen Heed](http://ellenheed.com)** is a pioneering Somatic Educator/Healer drawing from her deep expertise and study of inter-disciplinary disciplines to bring resolution from the pain/disharmony of immediate or past traumatic experiences, scar tissue remediation, and bio-chemical/bio-mechanical imbalances. - **[Dr. Stella Resnick](http://www.gisc.org/gestaltreview/documents/Somatic-ExperientialSexTherapy-ABody-CenteredGestaltApproachtoSexualConcerns.pdf)** specializes in the associations formed during childhood affecting our adult sexual preferences and behaviors. Here, one of her excellent published research papers speaks to the comprehensive & effective approach of a body-based “Somatic-Experiential Model” for sexual healing & wholeness. - [**Sunyata Satchitananda**](http://sunyatasatchitananda.com)’s site is a wonderful resource explaining in detail the nature and elements of somatic sexual healing and the responsibilities of both practitioner and client. His **[7-point Safe Sexual Healing Checklist](http://safesexualhealing.com)** is valuable for anyone considering receiving sexual healing sessions for past abuse. - **[The School of Consent](http://schoolofconsent.org/):** Training practitioners worldwide on the subtle distinctions and practice of **Dr. Betty Martin**‘s Wheel of Consent for clarifying boundaries and consent involving touch and intimacy. - **[Consent: The New Rules of Sex Education](https://consentthebook.com/)** for Teens by **Dr. Jennifer Lang** is an excellent, practical, empowering, and informative support for teens and young adults, and wonderful resource for sex educators. ## Self Awareness And Celebrating Consciousness ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/resources_awareness.jpg "resources_awareness | Rahi Chun") [**\* The Body Electric:**](http://www.thebodyelectricschool.com) Oakland-based leader in the field of somatic sexual healing and wholeness - [**Wildquest**:](http://www.wildquest.com) Interact and play with wild dolphins off the coast of Bimini Island by day after morning yoga and meditation - **[Angbacka:](http://en.angsbacka.se)** Consciousness & body-centered awareness retreat center and festival on a beautiful farm in the middle of Sweden (One of my very favorite festivals.) - **[Osho Meditation Resort:](http://www.osho.com)** Osho’s teachings and insights offered through a wide range of group therapies, creative & healing arts, and meditation in Pune, India ## Special Thanks ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/resources_thanks_400.jpg "resources_thanks_400 | Rahi Chun") - To [**Antonia Wibke Heidelmann**](http://magnetizingpresence.com), my incredibly creative, intuitive and wonderful web-site and brand designer - To [**Richard Morrow**](http://richardmorrow.net), whose art work (used in the SSW logo) is devoted to honoring the Yoni - To Alice Fulks and **[A\*Light Picture,](http://www.alightpicture.com/)** dedicated to creating media content that lights us up [![Fully Seen](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FullySeen_400px.png "FULLY SEEN | Rahi Chun")](http://www.fullyseen.de)[![Richard Morrow](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/yoni-richard_morrow.png "Richard Morrow | Rahi Chun")](richardmorrow.com)[![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Alightpicturelogo.jpg "A Light Pictures | Rahi Chun")](http://www.alightpicture.com) --- ### [The Session](https://rahichun.com/the-session/) **Published:** October 25, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## The Sessions *Every series of sessions is **tailor-designed** for meeting each client’s unique intentions and readiness. This may take the form of Skype or in-person Coaching, or additionally, TRE/NeuroAffective Touch sessions, or additionally, Sexological Bodywork, or additionally, Inner Pelvic Freedom. **Listening to the body’s sense of safety, trust, and inner wisdom** guides each journey throughout the process.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Intake1.jpg "Intake | Rahi Chun") ### *Awareness* Coaching sessions are facilitated inviting a mindful inquiry with embodied presence. A dual awareness of engaging the cognitive mind whilst also being present to the body’s responses, we invite the body’s intuitive wisdom to inform what is ready to be explored and how the session wants to be guided. Listening to the body and being for what interrupted expressions are ready to be integrated and what energies want to be released, the experience becomes one of inviting a sense of safety to mind and body as it relates with its own experience. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Rose_Pulsation.jpg "Sessions_Rose_Pulsation | Rahi Chun") ### *Presence and Connection* TRE and NeuroAffective Touch are facilitated for expanding one’s presence and connection with oneself and inhabiting the body. Eliciting the body’s natural “tremor mechanism” for releasing tension, stress and anxiety often chronically held from past traumas, TRE supports a re-regulation of the nervous system. NeuroAffective Touch then invites a listening for how the body wants to be supported and nourished in reclaiming its voice and empowered autonomy. The greater awareness and attunement with one’s inner life invites a deepening sense of connection with oneself. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Liquid_Massage.jpg "Sessions_Liquid_Massage | Rahi Chun") ### Embodied Sensations and Feelings The Full Body Active Consent is designed to facilitate an awareness and practice of “touch fluency” – identifying, voicing, requesting, and receiving the kind and quality of touch your body wants. An acitve experience of consent, the client practices attuning to and honoring their body and boundaries in ways which repair and re-condition past memories contrary to this. This meditation of receiving the embodied sensations, feelings, and intuitive wisdom from one’s own Divine Source invites a sense of aliveness in fully honoring one’s life force energy. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Sessions_Splash-Release2.jpg "Sessions_Splash-Release2 | Rahi Chun") ### *Inner Pelvic Freedom and Release* Once a cognitive awareness, presence & inner connection, and touch fluency & active consent have been explored and practiced, either within a session or over a series, Inner Pelvic Freedom & Release can serve to expand one’s capacity for embodied sexual energy, pleasure, and wholeness by releasing any muscular or genital armoring from the pelvic bowl. Breath, sounding, intentional touch, and presence are utilized in the expansion of embodied life force energy inviting a sense of loving wholeness within the client. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/integration.jpg "integration | Rahi Chun") ### *Integration* Integrating and acclimating to a new point of reference in pleasure, embodiment and wholeness is as important as the session itself. The integration begins during the session, as the session is brought to completion, and continues over the following days. A follow-up phone conversation, in addition to an email follow-up within two days, to discuss the client’s integration experience supports the client’s new-found awarenesses into their daily life inviting a sense of communion of their new inner and evolving outer realities. Having been a Dr. of Oriental Medicine for 20 years, as well as personally navigating and taming cervical cancer for the last 8, I have done it all. Nothing has been as profound however, as the healing experiences I have had working with Rahi Chun. I have experienced a fundamental resurrection. My whole pelvic floor has come alive, more than it ever was, even before the 6 surgeries. Frozen traumatic energy has been liberated and transmuted, fueling enormous amounts of motivation, confidence, stamina, and creativity…. The transformations have been rapid and the change sustained. Dr. Birch StorySanta Monica, CA --- ### [The Modalities](https://rahichun.com/modalities/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## The Modalities ***Consciousness, Safety, and Presence** lay a foundation for restoring the body’s natural state of embodying life force energy. **They create a safe container for the following** **counseling, somatic, and holistic sexual healing modalities**.* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/practices.jpg "| Rahi Chun") My healing sessions with Rahi completely transformed my ability to experience my body and pleasure in ways which I truly thought were lost due to old pain and programming from childhood abuse. Not only did his work completely release the pain and numbness, it allowed me to realize how much I had not been present in my body throughout my life even though I considered myself a spiritually evolved being on a healing path. He completely helped me reawaken the pure and innocent joy of being a sensual being. Kimberly N.Sylmar, CA ### *Mindful Inquiry:* An identification and exploration of the influences shaping one’s sexual identity, patterns, and attitudes, including early relational intimacy dynamics, developmental arousal & pleasure experiences, and adult sexual patterns & behaviors. ### *TRE*® & NeuroAffective Touch™*:* [Tension & Trauma Releasing Exercises](http://traumaprevention.com/what-is-tre) are a series of 7 non-touch, non-invasive exercises designed to elicit the body’s natural tremor mechanism for releasing contracted stress and anxiety held within the neurophysiology of the brain stem, psoas muscle, and nervous system. [NeuroAffective Touch](http://cellularbalance.com/neuroaffective_touch.html) invites a listening for how the body wants to be supported, and through engaging the body on its own terms, facilitates the release of chronically held protective patterns. ### *Sexological Bodywork*™*:* As CA state-certified Somatic Sex Educators, [Sexological Bodyworkers](http://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/what-is/) are uniquely trained to facilitate an embodied presence for discerning the body’s active consent & boundaries involving touch & sexuality, and expanding states of erotic & ecstatic presence, arousal, and pleasure. Instructive practices include identifying & communicating embodied awareness and requests involving touch, ecstatic breath work, pleasure mapping, taoist erotic massage, and scar tissue remediation. ### *Inner Pelvic Freedom:* Breath, sounding, intentional touch, and presence are facilitated in the release of physiological/emotional armor within the pelvic bowl, often representing un-integrated past experiences and emotions. The Taoist arts of Chi Nei Tsang & Karsai Nei Tsang, scar tissue remediation, and urogenital steaming may also be emplyed to restore the full expression and experience of one’s sexual presence, health, and embodied pleasure. **Certified Somatic Sex Educators abide by a code of professional conduct and ethics involving**[ **28 clearly defined guidelines**](http://sexologicalbodyworkers.org/ethics/) **to honor the safety of both the client and the facilitator,** including clear communication of boundaries and consent, being fully clothed at all times, uni-directional (one-way) touch from facilitator to client, and the necessary use of hygienic gloves when making contact with genitalia. **Confidentiality and privacy speak to the trust that is sacred to the process.** In honoring my own safety, **I work with clients referred by friends**, **current/past clients, and trusted health-care professionals**, **engage in a conscious mind-body-spirit lifestyle**, are at least **30 years of age**, and share an understanding and **self-responsibility** that our life experiences manifest from our own creation and that of our higher consciousness. [![ACSB](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/static1.squarespace-300x71.png "ACSB | Rahi Chun")](http://sexologicalbodyworkers.org) Merken --- ### [FAQ](https://rahichun.com/faq/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## Frequently Asked Questions ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/W_Drawing_freeflow_400px.jpg "W_Drawing_freeflow_400px | Rahi Chun") ##### Who are your clients and what are their intentions? The range in clients is quite diverse in age, background, and experiences with their body, sexuality, and sexual energy. The range in clients’ intentions is equally diverse as every soul’s journey is so unique, and thus, their experiences as a sexual being, reflecting this, so varied. The similarities amongst clients is a pretty clear inner knowing about their readiness to receive this work, and a resonance with the expansion and self-exploration of their sexuality and empowerment via sexual energy. The other similarity tends to be a healthy conscious lifestyle, and an engagement in mind-body-spirit practices, such as meditation, yoga, breath work, etc. Because Somatic Sexual Wholeness involves these aspects in addressing the client’s well-being, it appears natural that those engaging in such a lifestyle would resonate with this holistic approach to sexual health and wholeness. ##### What is “empowerment via sexual energy”? It is the experience of fully embodying and being connected to your source of life force energy by removing blocks that may be in the way, and consciously expanding and circulating this energy allowing its intuitive intelligence and Spirit to nourish and inform your life. During each session, the practice for the client is in receiving – being present to receiving the sensations, feelings, and intuitive wisdom from their own Source of Divinity within. Every sexual being has all of the wonderful, delicious, ecstatic, expansive, beautiful, and fulfilling elements of sexual/spiritual wholeness within them. The client’s meditation is to be present within their own body, and feeling how their aliveness and energy wants to be honored and experienced. The exception to this is during the intentional release of fascial armoring, when the charging and dis-charging breaths are employed to release any stored pain or numbness. Whilst still present to the sensations and feelings in their body, in order not to be triggered into re-experiencing a past trauma, the client connects with the eyes of the facilitator as an anchor, to know that they are safe and present in the healing space and engaged in a conscious process to release un-integrated sensations and feelings from the past, whilst not re-experiencing the past trauma itself. ##### Why would a woman seek these services from a Man and not from another Woman? Whether receiving these services from a woman or a man, I would first encourage anyone to assure their sense of safety and trust with the practitioner. I strongly feel this to be the most important element of any session. Female clients report that working with a male practitioner whom they trust, as it relates to sexual health and wholeness, can be life-changing in terms of positively re-conditioning past experiences. If there have been past associations with masculine energy that were of a dis-honoring, un-safe or dis-respectful nature, the potential to replace these with new associations of masculine energy as safe, present, sacred, and honoring of who you are and of your sexual empowerment, can then create a new point of reference for experiences of the masculine. Additionally, because the nature of the work involves expanding the body’s capacity to honor and experience sexual life force energy, the presence of sexual polarity between masculine and feminine energies can assist in generating and circulating life force energy for healing – if your energy is one that responds to the masculine polarity. ##### Do you work with men? Yes. One of the reasons I was drawn to the Sexological Bodyworker training at The Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality was in order to with all genders and self-identified sexualities. Our universal life force energy is expressed through all forms, genders and orientations. ##### How do you work with clients who are married or in committed partnerships? When holding space for clients who are in committed partnership, I am in service to the intimacy of the partnership. As such, I invite the full participation of the partner to the degree that all parties feel safe. Often times, engaging with a beloved partner intimately can trigger the very issue or physiological/emotional contraction from which we are trying to heal. In these instances, it can be beneficial to involve the support of a neutral third party to resolve and release the issues eliciting these past wounds or patterns, so a new healthy dynamic can be created within the partnership. I work in concert with licensed MFTs and Intimacy Coaches specializing in couples and relationships for this reason. ##### How many sessions do clients typically receive? As each client’s intention and journey is unique, so too are the number of sessions addressing each intention. The intake process illuminates the journey of how many sessions may serve addressing the client’s intention, while the initial session itself, serving as a diagnostic, further clarifies a great deal in regards to how many and what kind of sessions moving forward can best support and address the client’s intention. The majority of clients receive between 3 and 8 sessions to successfully address their intention. ##### What are your rates ? As the intentions and practices involved in each session vary, so too do the rates. Each session can range anywhere from 2 to 6 hours, and each series, anywhere from 1 to 12 months and involve a different combination of modalities. At the end of the intake process, a clarity emerges as to the intentions for the space, the modalities to apply in the initial session, and rates which reflect this. The initial session then further reveals what core issues are inviting shifts, expansion, and release, and what level of commitment this calls for moving forward in terms of follow-up sessions, home-play practices, rates, and timeline. ##### What if I don't live near Los Angeles? Clients who live outside of Los Angeles find that immersion retreats of anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks can be powerfully effective in restoring and re-conditioning their experience of their embodied sexuality, pleasure, and wholeness. These are tailor-designed, based on the client’s intention, history, and listening closely to the body’s sense of readiness and safety. Los Angeles is abundant with beaches, hiking trails, and spiritual/healing events making it a wonderful place to integrate between sessions during a stay of any length. Skype Sexual Wholeness Coaching sessions, which begin with a thorough exploration of the influences and experiences of a client’s development psychology, to their current embodiment as it relates with their sexuality, can also serve as an effective prelude to an immersion retreat, revealing a through-line from present-day sexual behaviors to the roots of their inception. ##### How can I best prepare myself for a session? Having a clear intention as a guiding light and listening to the body’s innate wisdom has led to the greatest transformations for clients. Attachment to a goal can often interfere with the natural flow of this process as this can impose an outside agenda (even if it’s from one’s own mind) onto the body. It is common for clients to share that their expansion in embodied pleasure, wholeness and transformative healing far exceeded what they first thought was possible. As in all of life, what is possible is often beyond our imagination. --- ### [The Benefits of Somatic Sexual Wholeness](https://rahichun.com/benefits/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## The Benefits Of SSW *Although there is no typical series of sessions, as each human being’s personal, transpersonal, and sexual journey is so unique, and each client’s awareness and expansion evolves from session to session, **there are three main areas of transformation**:* ### **Releasing** | **Re-patterning** | **Realizing** ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/releasing.jpg "releasing | Rahi Chun") ### *Releasing* Scientific studies now verify how our psychology and neurology shape our physiology. The body is an extension of the mind’s thoughts, both conscious and un-conscious, and past memories, stories, tensions, and traumas left unintegrated, remain stored in the tissues and fascia of our musculature and nervous system affecting our current behaviors. These contractions can appear as tension, discomfort, numbness or pain in areas of the pelvic bowl, or show up as boredom, avoidance or frustration during sexual intimacy. The use of breath, sounding, intentional touch, and presence are utilized to facilitate **the** **gentle release of these contractions and an integration of their related emotions, leading to the healthy flow of previously stagnant sexual life force energy.** ## Releasing Interview with Pamelah [https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/PAMELA\_RELEASING.mp3](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/PAMELA_RELEASING.mp3) Pamelah, 60’s, shares her experiences of Releasing past childhood sexual trauma held in her body in the form of pain and numbness in the tissues and fascia of her vagina, and the freedom she now experiences in her body, in her pleasure, and in her relationships. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/repatterning.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### *Re-Patterning* Patterns and associations with sexual energy often develop and become conditioned when we are very young, and have the potential to stay with us into our adult relationships. Whether they involved instances of innocence and pure intentions, of violation, or of mis-interpretations, they can shape our sexual journey and the experiences we are unconsciously drawn to and magnetize as our sexuality evolves. There are 12 chemicals and hormones released in the brain during arousal states which can facilitate healing in the body. **Fortunately,** unhealthy patterns previously associated with arousal and pleasure can be safely replaced and re-patterned with new healthy associations within the body/mind/spirit. ## Re-patterning Interview with Kimberly [https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kimberly\_REPATTERNING.mp3](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kimberly_REPATTERNING.mp3) Kimberly, 40’s, shares in detail the shifts in each of her 4 sessions, and how Re-patterning her past association of sexual pleasure with fantasy, to a new association of sexual pleasure with the presence to sensations in her body, has invited a new-found joy and intimacy in her sexual dynamic with her Self and her beloved. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/realizing.jpg "realizing | Rahi Chun") ### *Realizing* On average, women feel the full potential of pleasure and sensitivities within the yoni (sanskrit for Vagina) after 20-45 minutes of arousal, yet the average love-making session in the U.S. lasts 5-7 minutes. And due to unfortunate shaming associated with the anus, most men have yet to fully explore the healing, relaxation, and pleasure potential associated with the prostate gland. There are areas specifically designed as erogenous zones that are not being fully experienced, largely because of habitual patterns and a lack of education in sexual anatomy and arousal. In an experience devoted to receiving, clients discover new practices and sensory connections that are designed by Mother Nature for extended pleasure, health and wholeness. From these new-found realizations, clients report shifts in their self-confidence, body-image, sexual attraction, expressions of loving, and embodied joy. ## Realizing Interview with Yulia [https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/YULIA\_REALIZING.mp3](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/YULIA_REALIZING.mp3) Yulia, 30’s, shares how Realizing newly discovered pleasure and intimacy with her Self and her yoni has shifted her experience with her body, from one of being dis-interested in sexuality and intimate relations based on past patterns, to a new-found engagement and expansiveness with her body, sexuality and orgasms. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/receiving.jpg "receiving | Rahi Chun") ### *Receiving* Releasing, Re-Patterning and Realizing are designed to lead to the most transformational R, expanding and empowering your experience of Receiving. **Receiving the pleasures, sensations, and intuitive wisdom from the Source of Divinity within** further nourishes and expands an embodied integration with innate intuition, creative flow, embodied power & presence, and heart-felt desires. **The deepening connection and wholeness between heart, sex, and spirit becomes reflected in clients’ outer lives with the expansion of joy, aligned success, and loving relationships experienced both personally and professionally.** My yoni is thrilled that I can feel and listen to her more deeply. She is thrilled to be awakened and recharged. I feel like I am actually connecting to the central power spot of my whole being now….. Your touch and our intention turned the lights on and brought me back to life. It was a homecoming… turning the lights on in every room of my feminine core, and being in my full presence and capacity…. The emotion that I felt at the end of the session was joy and gratitude for deeper communion with myself, for coming home to myself. LaraLos Angeles, CA I felt so much energy move throughout my body and I felt my container expand…. to really let my sexuality and my pleasure move through me in the way that it wanted to move through me…. to feel the depth, power and limitlessness of my energy/life force – to understand that I am a conduit for very strong, very deep, very transformative energy – and for me to have a space where I could let that energy run without holding it back. Jonathan K. Santa Monica, CA --- ### [Podcast Launch Team](https://rahichun.com/podcast-launch-team/) **Published:** December 14, 2020 **Author:** Rahi Chun **Content:** # **Organic Sexuality Podcast** ### **coming February 8th, 2021** Day(s) : Hour(s) : Minute(s) : Second(s) *Welcome to Organic Sexuality* We explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our innate embodied health, wholeness and vitality. We engage with leading somatic therapists, sexologists & sexological bodyworkers, and holistic practitioners from all over the world who provide practical wisdom from hands-on experiences of working with clients and their embodied sexuality. We invite a deep listening to the organic nature of your body, its sexual essence, and the bounty of wisdom embodied in its life force. #### Receive Podcast Updates & More! #### Sign up to hear about new episode releases and receive your free Organic Sexuality e-book. #### Plus, **look below to join our launch team** for additional access! ## Success! Name Email [ Sign Me Up! ](#) [](#) #### JOIN US! *Join our launch team and help spread the word about the Organic Sexuality podcast!* ## Success! Name Email [ I want to join! ](#) *With Special Guests:* *Click Guest image to View Sample Clip* [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.AlineLaPierre-e1611156365987.jpg "Dr.AlineLaPierre | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RoNV-fjzc.) **Dr. Aline LaPierre** Creator of Neuroaffective Touch Therapy [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/mike-lousada-e1611156493244.jpg "mike-lousada | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jb_aWpyI6U&t=42s.) **Mike Lousada** Creator of Psychosexual Somatics Therapy [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DeviWardErickson.png "DeviWardErickson | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaaMc2D2tPI&t=18s.) **Devi Ward Erickson** Founder: Institute of Authentic Tantra Education [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SusanneRoursgaard.jpg "SusanneRoursgaard | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ntKpQAYO_M&t=75s.) **Susanne Roursgaard** Creator of The Gaia Method Sexologist/Psychotherapist [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrEllenHeed.jpg "DrEllenHeed | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZFMt486rd8&t=20s) **Dr. Ellen Heed** STREAM: Scar Tissue Remediation and Management [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KeliGarza.jpg "KeliGarza | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIHaqAUPM5o) **Keli Garza** Founder: Steamy Chick/Peristeam Hydrotherapy Institute ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.LiamSnowdon.jpeg "Dr.LiamSnowdon | Rahi Chun") **Dr. Liam Snowdon** Co-Founder: Somatic Sex Educators Association ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dr.BettyMartin.jpg "Dr.BettyMartin | Rahi Chun") **Dr. Betty Martin** The Wheel of Consent Author: The Art of Receiving and Giving ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KimberlyAnneJohnson.jpg "KimberlyAnneJohnson | Rahi Chun") **Kimberly Anne Johnson** Author: The Call of the Wild: How We Heal Trauma, Awaken Our Power, and Use It For Good ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KrisGonzalez-e1610340995671.jpg "KrisGonzalez | Rahi Chun") **Kris Gonzalez L.Ac.** Founder: The Way of Yin Chinese Medicine Gynecology [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/MatthiasSchwenteck.jpg "MatthiasSchwenteck | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-i2Uf8vJD0&t=76s) **Matthias Schwenteck** Founder: Somatic Consent Sacred Sexuality Teacher/Practitioner ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/VioletLange-e1611156455603.jpg "VioletLange | Rahi Chun") **Violet Lange** Expert in dating, intimacy & relationships. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/CelineRemyKevinAnthony.jpg "CelineRemy&KevinAnthony | Rahi Chun") **Celine Remy & Kevin Anthony** Creators: Sexual Power & Mastery/The Love Lab Podcast [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/PamelahLanders-e1611156539750.jpg "PamelahLanders | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GWgdvG8PCU&t=51s) **Pamelah Landers** Intuitive Guide, Author & Master Hand Analyst ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AaronMichael.jpg "AaronMichael | Rahi Chun") **Aaron Michael** In-House Sex & Somatic Coach for Kama.co (the App) [![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DrJenniferLang.jpg "DrJenniferLang | Rahi Chun")](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2ILDkKENHI) **Dr. Jennifer Lang** OB/Gyn & Author of “Consent” ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/LorrainePentello.jpg "LorrainePentello | Rahi Chun") **Lorraine Pentello** Somatic Sex Coach & Sexological Bodyworker ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Coocky_-TassaneeBoonsom.jpg "_Coocky_ TassaneeBoonsom | Rahi Chun") **“Coocky” Tassanee Boonsom** Founder: Loi Kroh Traditional Thai Healing Arts ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KimberlyCooper-e1611156417426.jpg "KimberlyCooper | Rahi Chun") **Kimberly Cooper** Somatic Healer/Artist ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Screen-Shot-2021-01-20-at-8.50.58-AM.png "Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 8.50.58 AM") **Dr. Sophia and Nina** Cultural Influences on Embodied Sexuality & Pleasure ## **Organic Sexuality Launch Party** *with hosts Rahi Chun, Dr. Jennifer Lang and Dr. Aline LaPierre.* Join us for a behind-the-scenes look into the production of the podcast, as well as a Q&A session about the episodes with Dr. Jennifer Lang discussing a holistic approach to gynecology and Dr. Aline LaPierre discussing the Arcline of Touch and how our developmental touch imprints influence our adult intimacy patterns. **Monday, February 8th, at 8pm PST** ## **Sign up for the launch team!** Our launch team takes things to the next level, spreading the word while gaining podcast perks! By joining the team, you’ll receive: **Episode release updates** **The Organic Sexuality e-book** **Exclusive podcast clips, featuring somatic sexuality experts** **Launch party access, including behind the scenes content, presentations, and a live Q&A** And finally… **Early access to the first 4 podcast episodes!** In addition to these perks, you have a great way to share your passion for Somatic Sexual Wholeness. This is your opportunity to include friends, family, followers, and to share our podcast and expert insight with others in your circle. The best part? Everything is optional, so you can share however suits *you* best, from social media to word of mouth. We can’t wait to have you on our team! #### JOIN US! ## Success! Name Email [ I want to join! ](#) --- ### [The Session](https://rahichun.com/session/) **Published:** September 4, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** ## THE SeSSiON ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/canyon1-400px.jpg "canyon1-400px | Rahi Chun") ### *The Intake* Tuning in to your inner knowing as to whether receiving sessions can serve the expansion of your sexual well-being is the first step. If so, filling out the inquiry form on the Contact page will lead to a scheduled phone consultation to have all of your and my questions answered. If there is an alignment and interest in proceeding, we’ll begin an in-depth intake exploring the influences of how your sexuality is expressed and experienced today. The intake process continues upon arrival for the first session, as often issues and memories surface between the initial phone intake and the session itself. What is revealed and discussed in the intake is often directly related to what gets released in the session. Here, we are listening for what the subconscious is wanting to communicate about what it is ready for, as much as we are to the mind’s stories. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/cayon-2-400px.jpg "cayon-2-400px | Rahi Chun") ### *Pulsation Therapy* Following the intake, each session continues with Pulsation Therapy. Based on the work of Wilheim Reich and Charles Kelly, deep breath work in concert with the contraction and release of different muscle groups are designed to access and release emotional holding from areas of tension in the body, and specifically from the pelvic bowl. Whether from our day-to-day repressed feelings, shame and guilt held around sexuality, or experiences traumatic to our nervous system, the pulsation exercises facilitate an awareness of unexpressed emotions and an invitation for their physical and emotional expression and release from the body. *(See [Resources](https://rahichun.com/resources/) for links to Releasing Trauma from the Body)* ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/canyon3-400px.jpg "canyon3-400px | Rahi Chun") ### *Full Body Sensual Massage* The full body sensual massage is designed to relax the entire nervous system, and simultaneously awaken the inter-connected energy grid of the whole body. In addition to the 12 chemicals and hormones released in the brain during states of pleasure which facilitate healing in the body, the pain threshold in women increases 50%-107%. This allows for the identification of contractions in the form of pain or numbness in the inner pelvis to be specific and clear. The practice for the client is in being present to receiving the sensations, feelings and intuition of her body. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/canyon0-400px.jpg "| Rahi Chun") ### *Inner Pelvic Release* The Inner Pelvic Release varies considerably based on the client’s intention, sexual history, and body awareness. It is also based on whether her intent involves more of an expansion of the body’s natural capacity to embody pleasure and wholeness, corrective re-patterning of past associations regarding sexuality, releasing repressed emotions or past trauma often held in and around the G-spot and Anterior spot, or releasing muscular armoring and tension from other areas of the yoni. Many sessions involve a combination of the above. ![](https://rahichun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/canyon4-400px.jpg "canyon4-400px | Rahi Chun") ### *Integration and Follow Up* Integrating and acclimating to a new point of reference in pleasure, embodiment and wholeness is as important as the session itself. Whether a client embodies new realms of pleasure and energies previously unknown, or has experienced release of repressed emotions and trauma, the integration begins during the session, as the session is brought to completion, and continues as we de-brief in the outer room and over the following days. A follow-up phone call the next day, in addition to an email follow-up within two days, to discuss the client’s integration experience supports the client’s new-found awarenesses into her daily life. Within three sessions, I saw profound shifts manifest in my life. Rahi helped heal past sexual molestation trauma, allowed me to reset my feminine desire point and expanded my capacity to receive pleasure. After each session, I felt magnetic, powerfully creative and holistically balanced. Relaxing the pelvic floor has allowed me to relax in my own life and enjoy the process of living a more feminine-centered, desire-directed life. Kimberly K.Woodland Hills, CA --- ### [Image Credits](https://rahichun.com/credits/) **Published:** November 2, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** # Image Sources/Credits: #### *Artwork:* **[Richard Morrow ](http://www.richardmorrow.com)***(Logo*) **[Elena Ray](http://123rf.com)** *(The Foundation, The Practices, Releasing, Repatterning, Realizing)* [**Antonia Wibke Heidelmann** ](http://www.AntoniaWibkeHeidelmann.com)*(FAQ/Blog)[ ](http://www.AntoniaWibkeHeidelmann.com)* #### *Photography:* **[Mark Byzewski ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)***(Background Image)*[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)**[Laurent Paillier ](http://saver-ag.livejournal.com)***(1st Header Image)* **Dianne DeMott** *(3rd Header Image)* **Saver\_AG** *(5th Header Image, Resources)[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)***Andriy Petrenko** *(Resources)[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)***Rahi Chun** *(About Rahi)[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)***[123rf.com ](http://123rf.com)[500px.com](http://500px.com)[ ](http://123rf.com)[fololia.com](http://www.fotolia.com)[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/)**[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbyzewski/) --- ### [Meantime](https://rahichun.com/meantime/) **Published:** September 3, 2015 **Author:** Rahi **Content:** # WelcOme tO SOmatic SeXual WhOleNess. This website is currently in development for a new launch. Meanwhile for all information regarding **Somatic Sexual Wholeness**, please visit: You can sign up to get notified when this site launches here —> Thank you. To your health, wholeness and well being. *Charles Rahi Chun* #### ReCeiVe GOOd News *Be the first to know when this site is launching.* ***Just sign up here.*** ## Success! First Name Last Name Email [ Subscribe ](#) ---